Ep 14. / Bev Churchill - Founder & CEO Churchill & Partners, Retail Strategy & Placemaking

Bev founded Churchill & Partners in 2018, specialising in Intelligent Retail Strategy for World-Class Developments, creating and cultivating value for world-class clients through innovative commercial and creative strategies tailored for Retail, Dining, and Entertainment destinations.

Bev draws on deep expertise gained from 25 years in retail and real estate, including transformative roles at Selfridges and Covent Garden, where she significantly contributed to shaping two of London’s most cherished and vital retail destinations.

She believes smart developers appreciate that great places strike a harmonious balance between effective systems and genuine empathy. 

Bev leads a talented team of experts dedicated to creating value through innovative, purpose-driven strategies that address clients’ most challenging retail objectives covering existing retail destinations, mixed-use urban centres and Saudi Arabian Giga projects.

She and I met through social circles in a Northwest London Neighbourhood of Primrose Hill. Each time I have connected with Bev, I am inspired to continually strive forward as a woman in business. Bev is a successful entrepreneur who has been positively shaped by a fascinating career shift, where she began to run her own business in recent years - after many years in large corporate.  Her natural energy, to drive human connectivity through engaging spaces with intentionality is uniquely Bev.  

“Our clients can consider us an extension of their development team, by seamlessly integrating into your project and consultant team we support every step of the retail journey—from design and delivery through to driving
engagement, footfall and spend in your live destination.” - Bev

Episode Highlights:

-The conversation begins with reflections on how community bonds formed during the pandemic have been influential. 

-Bev recounts her upbringing in Northeast England, a pivotal moment in her youth that motivated her to seek better opportunities through education, and her eventual move to London. 

-She shares her extensive experience in the corporate world, notably her role at Capco in transforming Covent Garden, and how a realisation of her entrepreneurial spirit led her to start Churchill and Partners. 

-Explore her transition from a structured corporate environment to starting her consultancy business, her approach to placemaking, and navigating challenges like the COVID-19 pandemic. 

-Bev emphasises the importance of community, having a supportive network, staying true to one's purpose, and the continuous drive for personal and professional growth. 

Keep in touch with Bev:

https://churchillandpartners.london/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/beverley-churchill-90525867/

https://newmurabba.com/en/the-mukaab/

#ChurchillandPartners

#RetailPlacemaking

#RetailStrategy

#PlacemakingStrategy

Transcript

Kirstyn DeVries (00:02.264)
Good afternoon, Beverly. It is so amazing. I'm going to start again, actually. I'm call you All right. All right. Good afternoon, Bev. It's incredible to have you on today's podcast. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Now, it's so cool to be sitting in Primrose Hill, actually recording this, because we met shortly after lockdown. And I know when we first started meeting, it was in a group of incredible neighbors who had dynamic backgrounds. And we sort of just all bonded together after that.

really just sort of horrific time during the pandemic where we just needed community. And I was walking through the street just now coming to your place and realizing, gosh, you know, what an impact had so many different people who live in and around this street have actually had on my life. And part of that is why I'm sitting here today. And it's because you have been such an inspiration to me in many ways. It's a very, very, very special place and a special street in a special neighborhood.

And I think we now all realize how important we were to each other and how important community was. we don't take it for granted that we have this network that we can fall back on whenever we want to. great. That's absolutely. And I have to thank you again as well for those that have been consistently listening to my podcast. I will share that Bev was actually one of my first guests that had RSVP'd to be on the...

the series and the interviews and due to a variety of different things with me actually learning how to host and how to not actually bring people on through technology. She has been incredibly gracious and offered to come re-record something that we had a lovely conversation about. this is much better. This is much more comfortable. Much prefer sitting in the same room around the same kitchen table. So good. Well, thank you. Why don't we get started? Let's do it.

Can you please take us through the story of your personal journey and how that led to where you are today in your life and your career? Well, I think you know that I'm from the Northeast, from Newcastle, born within sight and smell of the time. And I'll kind of take you back to when I was very young. I was about 12 or 13 and I had an epiphany. I was sat on Wolves End High Street for anyone listening who knows.

Kirstyn DeVries (02:28.266)
the region, not the most salubrious of retail destinations actually. But I was waiting for my mum who was in a shop, sitting on a bench, and I watched a woman on the other side of the street walk past me. She was wearing a big coat and she had a trolley with her shopping in and she had the weight of the world on her shoulders. For some reason she caught my eye and in that moment I knew

without any doubt that I had to improve my circumstances and I had to kind of change what was happening then would have given me what life might have had in store for me in the Northeast. Can we just stop there for a second? Do you mean that when you saw that image almost in front of you that you almost flashed to an older version of what the self could have been had you not made a decision at that point? 100%.

I looked at her and thought that could be me in whatever it would have been. I can't believe the woman was probably more than 40. She wasn't an old woman. I got that moment of, if I don't do something, that could be me. my gosh. So then what did you do after that moment? How did that change your thinking? It made me a bit more focused.

I realized that the only way to change those circumstances was through education. I can't say I kind of worked much harder. I kind of did what I could. But I think it was through my education and the journey that took me on that got me out of that particular kind of place. came to London to to university and stayed and built a career.

here in London. And I've been incredibly lucky. I've had some wonderful roles in brilliant businesses, but I spent 25 years in the retail world and in the real estate world in places like Tesco and Selfridges and Capco, which you know about, before I realized at 49.

Kirstyn DeVries (04:52.238)
that actually, even though I'd been corporate through and through and had done incredibly well in that career, more than I ever expected, I actually wasn't suited to the corporate world. I was actually looking back, a kind of, a sort of entrepreneur at heart, because when I kind of reviewed my career and thought about the kind of, some of the moments I'd had,

The ones that were more startup, I would say, in their kind of nature, be it, it was a small team and it was dynamic, or I was working for a charismatic leader who wanted to break rules and do things differently, or the appetite for risk was greater. That's when I was kind of most engaged and when I thrived. When did you identify those as a common theme? Was it when you were sat there sort of in your late 40s and realizing

sort of the thread or how did you come up to notice that? It's like being a wonderful thing it was I was like yeah. Okay. Just looking back and kind of thinking of the moments that I'd kind of been most fulfilled and happiest and when I kind of where I struggled more was when those businesses went from startup mode into more kind of you know norming and performing mode and yeah it didn't it didn't kind of

work as well for me. I have a very low boredom threshold. And so that kind of realization was the thing that just made me think, well, I'm not going to get that again, I don't think in the corporate world, so I might have to do it myself. That's interesting that you're speaking about that because when we first tried to do this recording, I was actually still working in a full-time role, which I'd been doing for nearly six years in the corporate real estate world.

And actually since sitting down to do this second version, I have gone to do freelance in the consulting world for a similar reason. And so it's interesting and I'm hoping we can ride that thread a little bit during today's conversation of, you know, what it is that, you know, attracts entrepreneurs to sort of go to these fast start environments that are, you know, quick decision making needs to be done and agility needs to be in place. And I know that a lot of the listeners

Kirstyn DeVries (07:16.302)
in this podcast are entrepreneurs themselves or athletes. And so, so interesting to know that at 49 you went, okay. And I I could say it was kind of a really profound moment, but it was driven by boredom. Okay. And I had to kind of explore why I was bored in what was on the face of it, an incredible job working for a

brilliant business, inspirational leader. That had allowed me to do amazing things. But actually it was just 11 years into the role and I was, I think I was bored. I needed to do something else and I couldn't see myself doing that for another 15, 20 years. So just in that narrative, can you sort of take us through a little bit about what maybe one of the older, more corporate roles looked like, just sort of how busy it was, what you were doing and then.

after that shift and what you're doing today with Churchill and Partners and just almost showing the dichotomy of that? going from kind of one extreme to the other, we'll go from my at Capco, which had been creative director of Covent Garden, where I had the privilege of being part of a very, initially a very small team, dynamic team that helped reposition the great estate that is Covent Garden and piece it back together again, where I learned so much.

And by the time we come through the journey of Transformation, which was very successful, we were not a team of 15 people anymore. We were a team of probably closer to 150. And I was kind very senior in that team. But you had all of the structure, all of the kind of systems in place that are demanded from

business that had listed. And so, you know, you're kind of, there is a process and a governance around businesses of that scale that slows things down. So I think that was kind of part of my frustration. I respected it, I understood it. So now we're the world of public businesses versus private partnerships and sort of actually the culture that comes through that and the...

Kirstyn DeVries (09:39.371)
impact of just having to do so much reporting and so much obligation. can see that being. And I think, you know, we probably had a team of about 40 people in finance and I think, you know, the final straw might have been, you know, when a full-time health and safety person was brought into the business. I don't know what the trigger was, but so you go from that structure where there is somebody to do everything. There are teams and within my part of business, I was

doing more leading than doing. And so I ended my career at Capco and it literally was on 31st of December 2017 and I started my business on the 1st of January 2018. I didn't have a phone, I didn't have a laptop, I didn't have any of my contacts. I was sat in a shared workspace office. I had nothing to do, I an empty calendar.

And from someone who was used to going, this thing doesn't work, send help. You had to start again and you have to build from a basis of nothing. There was no blueprint. had never gone to business. And you were a solo printer at that time. You had no team around you, right? No, I didn't have my first assistant, Shelly, for six months. So it's kind of, know...

It's one call at a time, it's one coffee at a time, it's one kind of little win at a time, it's one kind of minor setback at a time and I kind of dealt with it in the only way I know how which is kind of you know head down and drive, keep going. I actually find this quite ironic because one of the themes and words that comes up when I speak to you about sort of what you're doing now with Churchil and Partners is this word of place making and I find it quite ironic that you were sat sort of in this

possibly dull, you know, co-work environment at a desk all alone and you kicked this off and you know, leading to what you're doing today. So now I think it'd be really wonderful to share with the audience what it is that, you know, that sparked in you at that moment and what now it looks like in the work that you're driving for your clients. Well, my background was quite unusual for the role I was doing at Capco in Hawkesworth, my boss for that.

Kirstyn DeVries (12:05.486)
kind of decade, took a risk in taking somebody into the business who came directly from retail. It's reasonably common now that big landlords and developers have placemakers who come from the kind of the retail world or the fashion world or the kind of entertainment world, but it wasn't the dumb thing at the time. And he wanted kind of, you know, some of that self-wit is playable brought to.

the business he was trying to create in Covent Garden and didn't just want it to be led. No disrespect to kind of some of your colleagues in the past, surveyors and asset managers. Yeah, traditional real estate folks, right? So he kind of chucked me in the mix with them. And what I was trying to do as the only non-property person in the business was do what I'd always been taught to do, which was to build a brand.

So I was trying to find ways to build brand in the built environment. And my role covered kind of the tenant mix, the marketing, the kind of environment in terms of how it was animated and enlivened and the customer experiences really. And so I dealt a lot with leasing teams and I dealt a lot with kind of agents who would come in and go,

Hey, babe, you guys have got this great building and I've got this great brand and let's kind of do a deal. And I'd be like, no, that doesn't work for my vision. That doesn't work for what we're trying to do for Covent Garden. And so that was, it was a sort of a minor frustration that was when paired with the kind of I've been doing this a long time and I don't want to become part of the furniture, which made me think, actually, is there a gap in the market? Is that kind of, is that an offer? Is that something people would buy?

would kind of people pay money for that insight and that advice. So that was kind of the transition. So how did you actually begin to find that out? Did you ask questions of colleagues during that time at Covent Garden? How did you sort of begin to almost convince yourself? Because I mean, as an entrepreneur, even in launching this podcast, right, there's a line at which you eventually have to cross and say, I'm going to do it because I believe that there's actually some value I can offer here.

Kirstyn DeVries (14:28.334)
So was there something in that journey where you kind of went, you know, there's enough sort of people leaning towards, yes, this is going to be helpful, that not? was, did it feel like more of a risk for that? I think it felt more of a risk and the idea of what I was doing and what we do now as a team and as a business and how we articulate that wasn't nearly, it didn't, it wasn't kind of ready baked on the 1st of January, whatever it was,

I think I would be kind of being disingenuous if I didn't say that I did some planning on Capco's time. Sorry, if you ever listen to this. And when I look back at some of the kind of business plans that I wrote, actually with a colleague at the time, because we were thinking about doing it initially as an in-house specialist team that could work on other projects outside of Capco. And we created kind of a business plan for...

and I look back at our kind of numbers and our forecasts and laugh brightly. But no, it wasn't fully formed and it took time and it took a lot of conversations and it actually took a really kind of interesting moment with an old friend of mine called Matt Quinn who used to run...

Kirstyn DeVries (15:52.039)
property design agency. So you from the retail background, him from property design agency background. Yeah and worked, you know, he knew everybody in the industry and we were talking and he's actually one of our old kind of neighbors from around here and I was kind of talking to him about sort of positioning and kind of what I do and he was just like, but Beth, it's really obvious isn't it? It's like retail and real estate. And I was like, oh my god.

And it was that kind of playback from somebody else. I was overcomplicating it. It was more simple than you thought. It was much more simple and what I loved was that singularity of it. I loved the fact that nobody else that I could see at the time was doing just that. I knew I could never compete with the likes of the CBRAs of the world. I knew I had to really be in a kind of a market of one.

and double, down on that niche-ness and work with that. So then what does that look like today in terms of the type of projects and scale that you're delivering? I know that you've done work in London, of course, but then some international projects more recently. And just to give the audience a sense of something, the style of project that you'd now be delivering that speaks to that bespoke nature. Well, we started because my

had had two or three big transformation moments in it. I kind of was in a little bit of a pigeonhole. Everybody wanted to hear about the Covent Garden story. was really successful. could kind of like my way into pretty much any chief exec's office because they just wanted to hear how it was done. How it was transformed. They wanted to of get those sort of, see if they could kind of get any tidbits from that.

And I think from that, sorry, lost the train's board. Shall we do that again? Yes, we can do that again. So yeah, just sharing a little bit about an example of a project. yes. Right. OK. So when we started, when I started business, there was no waste of time. I was typically asked to look at helping landlords and owners of existing assets that weren't working.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:15.724)
Okay. So they could be kind of very old, very tired, a complete rethink. It could be new and for some reason not connecting and not working. So we did a lot of work for the first two years of the business on that type of project, which is completely expected given my background and the transformation work in Covent Garden in particular, which everyone wanted to hear about.

and kind of, you know, being part of the team that helped reposition suffrage as well. The pandemic changed all of that. Obviously retail closed. What an industry to be in. What an industry to be in. It's been actually a theme in this podcast. It's been three or four of the 10 episodes that are currently live where COVID was the line in the sand. Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of...

I almost want to sort of, you know, I think we should all build a bridge and get over it because it's now sort of five years ago. But that was a moment that helped kind of transform the business and the business's potential because while I lost all of my ongoing work and clients, two weeks into kind of the first lockdown, I got a call from the team at Argent asking if I could help on their new project at Brad Cross.

And that was the moment we went from working on existing assets to master plans of new assets. And that was a lovely mixed use scheme, is really kind of, you know, it's topping out on buildings now and it looks incredible. And from that, we started working on bigger and bigger projects. About three, four years ago, my...

now chairman, Staseker, said we should go and have a look and see what's going on in kind of Saudi in the Middle East because there's loads of development, lots of things happening, which was another stage in the development of the business and we've been heavily focused on work there over the last kind of three years, two and a half, three years and the projects have just got bigger and bigger and bigger and the ambition as you'll know in the kingdom is extraordinary.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:30.894)
And so we're now sort of designing from scratch retail strategies for assets of 350,000 square meters, GLA retail, which is insane. So now take us through what that looks like in a daily life of Bev. What's on your calendar these days and how can we see a typical day in your life? Well, I think, as I said before, I have a low boredom threshold. So there is no typical day.

which I'm actually quite pleased with but you know it can be it could be anything it could be new business pictures explaining who we are and what we do it could be actually doing project work for our clients it could be site visits it could be industry events and talks it could be travel I know t5 very very well yeah

And obviously there's some structure around that in terms of kind of how we keep pace as a team and how we kind of keep our focus. But really it's, to all intents and purposes, it's desk job. It's just a very interesting desk job. love that. And I think it's really wonderful because it paints a picture of...

you know, if I found paper, if someone thought, this is a consulting type role, really, it's, it's so much harder to explain unless you actually go through the day like that and say no, but the dynamic nature of it is just so vast and broad and there's travel and there's creativity and there's collaboration. I just, love that. And we kind of, know, of course we're consultants, but we differ from typical management consultants in that everybody who is part of the team and in the business comes from.

retail, real estate or tourism backgrounds. And we are doers. know, kind of consultants like to sort of advise from the edges having never, if I was being really harsh, a proper day's in their life. We take, in my case, over 30 years experience and everything that's kind of been in that, the mistakes we've made, the successes we've had.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:51.63)
And we kind of turn that into advice for our clients, which comes from a philosophy and a mindset and approach about how we think places should be and what we should be focusing on in terms of creating wonderful places around the world, but also really practical advice on how to do it. Yeah, the how to, the hands on. And so we can be very, very hands on. So I had a call the other day with a potential new client and...

One of the people on the team was like, saying they wanted to understand what they were buying. If you're like working with an architect, you buy a master plan or you buy building design, it's kind of really obvious and tangible. When you're buying advice, it's kind of, it's much more difficult for people to understand what that looks like. And he was saying, but what we need are people who can kind of create presentations, write board papers.

sit in meetings with our architects and do all that and said it sounds like you guys just advise and don't do it. I was like no we do exactly that. Yeah we do the hard work. you started saying all of the almost tactical tangible things and you said yes that's exactly what we're doing and I think that's great and I'm happy that you're sitting here and that we're almost demystifying that world for people who might not actually understand you know what what's going on. Now I'd like to take a bit of a transition here and talk about bounce backs, breakthroughs and burnouts.

That's one of my favorite things to speak about on this podcast because we learn through story. So Bev, can you tell us about a time where you got thrown off pace? Well, think we just, maybe the best example is the one we just talked about about setting up the business. Yeah, absolutely. All the structure goes, as we said, all the support goes. And almost the identity switch as well. Well, the identity switch, your status goes. Yes. you...

When you work for a footsie listed business in my case at Capco and you have a title that has director on it, know, and you've had some success in that role, that carries some status with it. It gets kind of, you know, people want to talk to you, to listen, and that goes. You know, you've got to rethink about what it is.

Kirstyn DeVries (25:12.558)
you are doing and what it is you're bringing and rebuild from that perspective. Yeah. So I think that is such a strong example. So in that moment, or maybe perhaps in something more recently, what is a non-negotiable that you have in your life, Bev, that when you do get knocked off course and you feel out of your element, that you integrate into your lifestyle to pull you back on course? I'm not particularly mindful.

I don't meditate, I don't do yoga, I'm not very good at it. So my kind of world is very sort of honest, there's no fluff. And the non-negotiable now is having people around me who I know I can trust implicitly and having open and honest relationships with them. So Ian, who I mentioned before,

Thomas, my chief of staff are the rocks that kind of are non-negotiable in that I wouldn't want to do what I'm doing without them. That's kind of you know first and foremost and then kind of on the sort of the lighter side you know the friends who kind of keep you going so my wonderful wonderful friend Shane Brady who is he'll tick me off if I don't get this right multi award-winning interior designer

She and Brady. He can buy the next drink. We meet every week, come rain or shine at Quo Vadis on a Friday at about five o'clock and we have a couple of cocktails. We kind of decompress and we download and we have a laugh. And then if I need more of that, then, you know, we talked about it earlier, the community here, the stoop. Absolutely. No judgment. Everybody does something different. You know, we've got physiotherapists to KSCs. Nobody really cares. No.

And that also helps. think surrounding myself with really great people is the non-negotiable. And that might lead into the next question, because perhaps the people play a part in this. how do you know when you're in a big project and it's really stressful, or you're really trying to drive towards a goal, when it's time for you, Bev, to push harder and when it's time to pull back?

Kirstyn DeVries (27:32.495)
I only push, I only have one gear which is push. I'm not very good at the pulling back and I think that's kind of to do with mindfulness piece and it's also to do with the fact that the 13 year old me still you know still very kind of strong in terms of that moment that drive which is

it hasn't slowed down. So I know it's a problem, I know it's a fault. I know it, you know, in terms of you with your passion about kind of long distance running, know, the first advice would be take it easy, go slow, pace yourself. Don't go out kind of, you know, hard and fast, but I only know that hard and fast. So my default is always just to push through until it's done. And actually, I think that

kind of tenacity and grit are serving us really, really well in the work we do in Saudi Arabia in particular. interesting. The projects are enormous. It's suiting the culture and it's suiting the pace. The pace, the expectations are...

exceptional in line with what the kingdom is doing. And I don't think I could do that. It's kind of, it's not for the faint hearted. Yeah, you almost have have a certain type of countenance and personality to work in that environment. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, with some of the new consulting work that I'm doing now, it's in a financial technology business based out of Toronto and Boston. And a lot of our work is actually out in the Middle East. So yeah, haven't yet experienced it sort of hands on but

from my colleagues direct experience. And you can also relate to that. conversation about that at the time, absolutely. Absolutely. So speaking of people, and it's been a big theme in this podcast, I really love to ask my guests about someone that's been important to them in their life. So can you tell me, Beb, about a person in your life that has deeply impacted your journey? And if so, is there something you carry with you today that they've taught you? Does it just have to be one?

Kirstyn DeVries (29:41.857)
It does not just have to be one. Can it be many? can be a few, sure. I've learned from a lot of brilliant people along the way. think people who lead with strength, with charisma, with bravery and intellect are the ones who've kind of really helped shape how I'm trying to be a leader in my business today with my team. So, you know, kind of...

people like going all the way back to Tesco John Gilderslieb, who was kind of the very charismatic commercial director of business at the time, to James Bidwell, Vittoria Radice, Selfridges, who were doing incredible things, through to Ian Acapco. And I think the people who I've learned from are the ones who've kind of

trusted me and empowered me and let me get on with things. And then... I believe in you. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if they didn't necessarily say those words, they handed you the reins. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then in terms of peers, there's so many amazing people I've met along the way, but, you know, the ones who come to mind are women like Delis Maltby.

who runs a consultancy called Circus, who is amazing. And she's incredibly intelligent and dynamic. And she taught me the importance and the significance of purpose more than anybody else. And then people like Walder. Can you say a little bit more about that? What was something in that that she taught you? Her business...

helps other businesses find their true purpose, their North Star. That is her focus entirely. She works with kind of C-Suites and Boards. In businesses you would think would already know why they existed and who for. But it's what I've discovered in applying that knowledge and that approach to real estate is they often don't.

Kirstyn DeVries (32:03.406)
And so she is entirely focused on that as an expertise, which has been incredibly important to me in the way I kind of approach the work I do. And then there's kind of the other, another woman who springs to mind is Ruth Warder, who had a phenomenal career at Edelman and PR. We've worked together for many years and she's recently left, but...

just so dynamic and powerful and sure of herself. That's always brilliant to watch in the room. It's always amazing because you meet these people that, and what amazing adjectives obviously to describe these mentors and friends of yours, but you often look behind the scenes and those people have people that have built into their life so much. and I've always, know, when I sat here and done these podcasts, would love to just picture the tree of almost like, you know, behind.

the people that help the people that help the people. And it's just incredible, Because in order for them, yeah, the mind map, but in order for her to have impacted you to that level, there's got to be one spot behind the scenes as well. And yeah, so this is just great. Now, I love asking this next question because it has to do with sort of future thinking and thinking big. So can you share what a goal or vision is that you are working toward at the moment that scares you just a little? And what do you think that goal demands of you?

Well, it scares me quite a lot actually. I've not really talked about it publicly, but I'm kind of exploring selling the business. So there's interest in kind of investment or a wholesale kind of buyout business, which is a founder and the kind of chief exec is obviously incredibly scary.

And I think that the most kind of daunting thing is being sure that the culture would be right and the fit would be right. Yes. So that is certainly something that is kind of, you know, not kind of every day and does kind of scare me just a little bit. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (34:26.582)
Absolutely. Cause I've been sort of in the inverse where a bigger company that I've been part of has absorbed a business perhaps of your size and seeing those folks need to integrate into a wider corporate culture is, you know, that's seeing it through a different lens, but I can't imagine what it must be like as the culture creator. I, know, this is the first business that I've founded with this podcast and the consultancy I'm doing with Artsnack. But, prior to that, I've been very close, similar to you to founding teams where

back in Toronto, I was sort of within the founding members of various startups at the early stage. And to see, have sat next to people while they're going through this and it can be quite scary. seen businesses decide to sell, ones not decide to sell. And there's just so many different things to navigate. So I appreciate you.

mentioning that this is something that you're considering even though it's a scary thought. Yeah and it's kind of you know it's a long way from kind of being certain yet but you know we kind of started the conversation with two pages of questions all about culture and fit. Didn't even talk about money because that's not the driver of it and I think

The one thing I hadn't appreciated about setting up my own business was the fact I would enjoy the lifestyle benefits that go with it as much. Yes. And the freedom to control your own life and destiny. Yes. And I have grown to need that to operate to the best of my ability.

So I suppose, you know, kind of having come out of the corporate world, any sense of going back into something which is much bigger than we are, much more kind of structured. It's a little bit of that fear of going back to that restriction. And that's one of my great kind of...

Kirstyn DeVries (36:34.136)
foibles, I can't bear limitation, I can't bear to be restricted, I can't really bear to be taught what to do by anyone. Yeah, the imagery, like you can't bear even being put in a box of some sort of structure that doesn't welcome the culture that you've built in Trichel and Partners that allows this amazing creativity to go far and wide within your team. I I've met just over email, even folks on your team and the welcoming nature of your business and just the customer service element.

even just through digital is just incredible and so can't imagine what it must be like to work in your office. it's lovely we have a giggle but we work hard but we have a laugh but you know I'm I've been I have been reassured I think you know I was very very skeptical but I have good vibes yes I will keep you posted. Okay exciting.

What is something Bev that you're doing consistently, intentionally, but perhaps unseen that is driving your success? At the moment, it's, know, I mean, I think this changes, but at the moment I'm being very conscious to really listen to people, to really listen to what people are saying in with words and with actions, to really understand them.

So I think in really truly trying to read between the lines to understand where people are coming from and their motivations, I think that helps me steer a path in a kind of, in a better way. have. And why do you think that's become more meaningful to you right now? Because I've kind of, you know, I've had experiences where I've

made the wrong choices with certain people or certain projects and clients and I think that listening helps give a clarity and that clarity helps build momentum and you know you're kind of you get you do your best work with the best people and so I'm trying to kind of find the best people all the time be it in in our clients or in the team and in

Kirstyn DeVries (38:52.598)
all of the kind of amazing consultants and sub-consultants who come in and work with us on our projects. It's kind of a theme this week. I have a friend who recently got back. They had planned and went away and did a silent meditation retreat. Although I'm not saying to go away and do this. But what's interesting is the theme that came out of a conversation with this dear friend was that he is chosen to speak 30 % less over the next short term. so listening. Listening. so listening was one of

things. So really interesting that you shared that. Okay so the theme question of this podcast obviously called Pace and Purpose. so Bev, what does purpose mean to you right now?

Kirstyn DeVries (39:39.751)
Purpose means possibility and potential. And it's a key part of our practice. We try to help our clients unlock their purpose in terms of place and the potential of that place. And, you know, we try to talk to our

our clients and educate them that, know, really understanding those very simple two points of why you exist and who for are your starting point. Then identifying, you know, what it is, articulating what you stand for, which is really what Dylan's taught me. And we kind of try to say to apply that into kind of the built environment through our work. And then, you know, taking my experience from being in retail, it's

we try to kind of educate our clients to behave like brands. To really kind of stop behaving like landlords and developers and to think about kind of being really kind of customer centric, product centric, but you know, people first and then making the experience wonderful. And all of that really stems from a clarity of purpose. And what we find is that that delivers solutions which are

commercially successful and resonate with people. And I think if you can create places where people want to be and they want to spend time, they'll come back. And that kind of, you know, at the root of everything, finding the purpose, finding your audience, that's kind of, you know, will draw those people to you time and time again. And that will give you the commercial success to go with it. So it's really central to what we do.

Thank you for sharing. So with the work that you're doing, not only on defining your purpose for the next stage of the company and pouring into the lives of the friends and family members that you mentioned, you know, doing these international projects over in Saudi Arabia, all these things that are going on, how do people follow what you're doing? Where can they go find you online? I have to confess, I am terrible on social media at keeping up to date and

Kirstyn DeVries (42:02.382)
I'm the sort person who every kind of, you know, once caught will pop up and go, this is what we've done for the last three months, which we must get better at. But really our kind of focus in terms of social is LinkedIn. know, our audience is not habitually scrolling through Instagram, but you know, it's kind of people who running enormous development projects and kind of property businesses.

on LinkedIn, it's either kind of just my name, Churchill, and we have a Churchill and Partners kind of page that's linked to that, but if I do anything I tend to do it on kind of we'll post it personally. And then our website is ChurchillandPartners.London. Great. But it's really out of date and I need to update it, so if anybody wants anything about the business then just let me know. you. Absolutely.

been really wonderful to sit here and have a tea with you and have this conversation around what you're doing. And just as inspired as when we first encountered the technical glitches and recorded earlier on this summer. some of the things that have changed even the last few months is just incredibly inspiring in your life and just what's going to be going on for you with Churchill and partners. And I think some of my takeaways from having spent time and listening to you is...

That one thing you mentioned with the concept of listening. And you know, people like you and I who are well articulated, we can probably easily go into a room and just speak in that room and perhaps walk out and think that it was successful. But I've always, from sitting with you, wanted to take away this thing of just listening more and listening more. So I will do that. And hopefully we can reconnect further down the line and hear about what you're doing in the future. So thanks so much again for coming on. Thank you for having me. Great.