Live Well Leave Well

9 ~ Birds Aren’t Real with Michael Burrows

• Baci Hillyer

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As Season One of Live Well, Leave Well comes to a close, I couldn’t think of a better guest to put in the hot seat than my producer, Mikey.

Why?

Because he’s absolutely terrified of death.

And I know many of you will relate.

The first time we met to talk about the podcast, I arrived at his office carrying a dead crow. (You’ll need to listen to the episode for more on that one.)

He was wearing a Birds Aren’t Real T-shirt. 🤣

He was completely supportive of the vision but upfront about the fact that, like many people, death was his greatest fear. Debilitating, even.

So Mikey spent the season sitting behind the glass, producing every episode and listening to every story. (There were moments I’m fairly certain he was eyeing the fire escape.)

Together, we created a podcast we’re both incredibly proud of that exceeded all expectations.

What unfolded in our conversation was raw, vulnerable and beautiful because it turns out he’s no stranger to death and dying.

Together we explored his father’s dementia diagnosis, his beautiful wife nearly dying during childbirth, his first experience of death sitting bedside with his grandmother as she died, and so much more.

There were tears.

There were laughs.

And more than once, I sat in complete disbelief at what was being uncovered.

Mikey sharing his brave and deeply personal experiences is less about “listen to my story” and more about “can you find yourself in his story?”

Which is why sharing our experiences of death and dying remains so important.

Michael Burrows is an award-winning Australian songwriter, producer and founder of Brand Music, one of Australia’s most established sonic branding agencies. For more than two decades he has helped leading brands find their voice through music, storytelling and human connection, collaborating with internationally acclaimed artists including Neil Finn of Crowded House, with original music reaching the U.S. Billboard Adult Contemporary charts.

And as one chapter closes, another begins.

Season Two is coming and I’m beyond excited. 

Stories are, and always have been, the heartbeat of change.

Because every time we share our stories, we help change the way we live, the way we grieve, and the way we face death for ourselves, for those we love, and for our communities.


https://www.michaelburrowsmusic.com

https://brandmusic.com.au


💛 Griefline
Free, confidential grief support
📞 1300 845 745 (8 am to 8 pm AEST, 7 days)
🌐 griefline.org.au

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24 hour crisis support
📞 13 11 14
🌐 lifeline.org.au


This podcast is hosted by Baci Hillyer.

For more about Baci & Dedicate, visit my website: 

https://www.deadicate.com/

Talk to LWELL here:

lwell.ai

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Please support the podcast by leaving a rating and review!

Recorded and Produced by Michael Burrows

(https://www.michaelburrowsmusic.com/)

Edited by Granger Lock @ Brand Music (https://brandmusic.com.au/)

SPEAKER_01

I'm so grateful for everything I have, the friends that I have, the things that I get to work on, the music I get to create. I feel blessed if there is such a thing.

SPEAKER_04

Someone can come up to me and go, Can you channel my grandmother? No, I can't. If my your grandmother comes to me, I'll tell you, I'll give you the message.

SPEAKER_03

Live well. Live well.

SPEAKER_04

Live well, leave well. A podcast about death, life, and everything in between. This is a space for real conversations about dying, grieving, and remembering, told by everyday people and the professionals who walk beside them. There are no true experts in death, only the wisdom that we gather as we live through love, loss, and letting go. Each episode, we explore what death can teach us about life, how grief shapes us, how ritual holds us, and how endings invite us to live more fully. We spend a lifetime learning how to live, yet almost never how to leave. So pull up a chair. Bring your stories, your truth, your questions, and your answers. Sharing what we know about death is one of the greatest gifts that we can offer the living. And preparing for our death, well, that might just be one of the greatest acts of love we can offer ourselves and those we leave behind.

SPEAKER_03

Who's in the heart?

SPEAKER_04

Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to honor someone who's been absolutely instrumental in bringing this podcast to life. My producer, Michael Burroughs. He stood beside me from the very beginning and he's been so supportive, not only guiding me through the world of podcasting, but even creating the jingles and the sonic identity of this show without me even asking. And that's just the kind of generous spirit that he is. What makes his contribution even more extraordinary is that when we first began, Mikey was deeply, deeply fearful of death. And yet, he chose to just day after day, week after week, continue to lean in, to be brave, and to help shape a podcast that sits right at the heart of conversations about mortality and grief and legacy. And it's that kind of courage and openness that has left such an important imprint on this work. So thank you. Mikey is not only a gifted producer, he's a charting singer-songwriter. He's the founder of brand music. And someone whose creative fingerprints can be found across advertising, jingles, and campaigns for some of the biggest brands in Australia. He's written with Grammy-winning songwriters. He's released music with Neil Finn. And he's supported artists like Martha Wainwright and The Black Sorrows. His career is a beautiful testament to the power of music and storytelling. And I just feel so lucky that some of that magic has been woven into this podcast. Mikey, thank you for lending your talent and your heart and your bravery to live well, leave well. And I know that the listeners are gonna really enjoy this conversation. Well, look who's in the hot seat today. Welcome, Mikey Burroughs.

SPEAKER_01

It feels really, really kind of uh nerve-wracking being on this side of it.

SPEAKER_04

It's yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Here's my teacher, the one who six months ago taught me how to sit in this in this hot seat, in this interviewer seat.

SPEAKER_01

And people can't see you, but if you do eventually see videos and photos of Butchy sitting there, she now controls the whole thing. I've kind of, you know, moved on. I can just take a producer's role and she is like an expert podcaster now. So it's so exciting that this has happened.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I wouldn't say expert, but I've nine nine potties in, I'm a lot more comfortable. And a huge thank you to you. Um I yeah, look, it's been a journey. And speaking of journeys, I want to reflect on yours. Um let's rewind six months ago uh about how this all started.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I had we we've known each other for a few years and sort of see each other on and off through various connections. But I was walking w dad was diagnosed with dementia, and the family kind of panicked and just sort of, what do we do? How do we how do we face this? What do what are the things we have to get in order to kind of w catch our breath and work out what we do? My brother um Danny is very, very good at this, very practical, and he kind of organized some of these um visits to to palliative care, which was a whole new wor world and word for me. And that's where we I was coming out of the, you know, after the visitation, saw Bachi, saw you, and I was like, oh my god, but she yeah, that's right. This how this is an amazing timing. Yeah. And you were sort of smiling and sort of in your world. I was kind of probably white as a ghost, going, were I don't know where I am and what this all means, but I know we have to face it and do it. And my brother's very, very practical, and he was just, you know, able to kind of run the the session and gather notes. And I was just feeling like, wow, this is where where I guess I have to end up too. It wasn't I was selfishly thinking of myself as well as my dad.

SPEAKER_04

I love your honesty, you know, because that happens a lot with people, but they're not really honest about it because you do fast forward and you just everything comes at you. But if everybody could see Mikey in the studio today, he's got green on. Why have you got that on, Mike?

SPEAKER_01

I'm wearing green and I've I've lit through every week we choose a colour for your guests. Yes. Most of them are kind of pink and purple. They've all accepted kind of parts of this journey. But for me, I felt like no, I've got to accept it. I am green. There is a green shadow cast on me, and I feel I'm I'm deserved of that because I I am, I am still really, really confused and scared and bewildered and about this whole process of how to how to how do I live well? How do I leave well? I you know, you give me fitness things, I know what I've got to do, and it's in the living, I can I can go in a calorie deficit, I can go to I know all the steps I've got to take to change myself.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But this one thing that I know, and I think you talked about it earlier, is that we all know we're gonna this isn't inevitable.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't know what to follow, where to go, what how to how to accept that that eventually comes.

SPEAKER_04

And I just love that honesty about you, that openness about the confusion, because I think that's where we all need to start to say, hey, I'm so full of fear and I'm so confused. But one thing that I love and admire about you is your ability and willingness to talk about it. And I saw you there white as a ghost. You were white as the walls on the palliative care ward. And your brother was so measured and he was so calm. So let's just talk about that. I mean, it happens often with siblings, but how do two people turn out so different?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I'm realizing this the more and more I meet people like yourself who um well, there's there's a couple of things to unpack. One is I saw you I seem to think of you as the the person who's no all, got it all under control, understands that death is just a natural thing. And then I saw you in moments where, like you said, I'm just human too. I'm scared of these things too. But I've understood that there are some processes, you've seen death happen.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I just haven't seen a lot of death. I I I haven't even been to hospital under general anesthetic.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. See, wow.

SPEAKER_01

At age 52.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

I have not been sick.

SPEAKER_04

You're a general virgin. That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, touch wood, let's see.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And deaths in the family?

SPEAKER_01

You know, other than grandparents and how many? Uh well, my both my grandparents had died. Yeah, both sets.

SPEAKER_04

Were you close to that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was close. And I did kind of I think by the time um my mother's um parents had gone, um my grandfather died on my birthday, and I got to hold both of their hands.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01

Through that process. You that's right.

SPEAKER_04

I have seen death.

SPEAKER_01

I have seen it. I've seen I've seen the breathing changes. I've seen I've I've been there.

SPEAKER_04

You've been in active dying. And you've held hands.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_04

That there you go.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that doesn't make me interesting. Yeah, I still kind of and I remember my grandmother um reverting to Yiddish. Uh and you know, and calling it calling for her brother.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um when they left Poland, she was kind of a lot younger and all their family had been killed. They came back from Russia to kind of see what was happening what what was left in Poland. And she decided with her mother and her brother, young brother, other siblings that obviously perished, to get on a truck and go to Russia because she was going off to meet my grandfather. They jumped on the truck, and then the mother had a change of heart and wanted to wait for the see if the other siblings had survived, grabbed the younger brother and went back to the home and obviously were killed and perished and who knows what. But she has this she had this memory in her final moments of holding her hand out, calling for her brother in Yiddish, please, please, please, don't let go. Come, come. This is the right decision. So she made a decision that changed her life, allowed our family to exist. Yeah. And that was her final sort of moments in Yiddish.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Wow. You know, it's beautiful. That those stories are so heartbreaking and emotive, you know, when you hear them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You've really been there. Maybe you just cut it out. And what's the difference between you and your brother? What happened there?

SPEAKER_01

I think Danny's just able to see how precious life is in the moment. We both really uh feel like we were blessed with the lottery of family. We had them uh have an amazing.

SPEAKER_04

I think you have that same quality.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04

Where did where did it go? Where did we what's happening?

SPEAKER_01

Where does it happen?

SPEAKER_04

At the moment, I've got two beautiful active dying experiences.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Uh holding hands, very gentle. Like a lot of people don't get that. There's no serious cancer. There's no what where do you have a little bit of.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I I don't know why Danny and I differ, but um certainly my father has no absolute fear. He just just doesn't get sick. He's just no I don't remember him ever succumbing to a cold and kind of having to give he was always actively working, making it.

SPEAKER_04

So you didn't grow up around illness. Did you talk about death when in your family?

SPEAKER_01

Not really. I do remember when my grandmother had a her husband Isaac had a heart attack and was having some heart surgery, and she's like, what you know, and Danny often talks about this, we'd laugh about it together, that she said, once he's out, they would have been in their 70s, 80s. Once he's finished this, we're gonna live life and never have regrets and go traveling. It never happened.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And the the life changes when you're facing an illness or that the you you you plan for it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, never ever actually took place, and that was something that um, you know, we've we've sworn that our in our lives we really want to live it to the best we can. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

That's the living well part. Yeah. I think you do that really well.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I hope so. Yeah, I really do hope so. Because it really is like life is so, so good. I feel so blessed. I feel all the things that have happened to me. I almost feel guilty. I've lived my life feeling guilty. Why is the good things happen to me? As much as I'm stressed about things and wish that I had other things, wish I had a different body, wish I had a different thing at times in my life.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The one thing I love is that that and feel grateful for is that I've just been afforded all these opportunities and luck.

SPEAKER_04

But that's just gratitude in a nutshell, isn't it? What you've just explained. And the guilt. I mean, you can get let go of the guilt. You can just say, I'm so grateful that it's a bit scary, or I wonder how, how did I strike this luck? And it's really what you do with it that matters. And what you do and what you give to the world is your contribution back. So it's a great way to look at it in my Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you ask about how two different people can grow up in the same household and have two different feelings towards it. It's the same way that you have experienced real close death. I know from your stories and what makes you you. But there are people like yourself that exist and can harness it and feed that energy back to people in their in their final moments. And there are people like me, obviously, who haven't quite I I I think I said to you at the when we first started talking about it, I missed the day in school where we talked about that there is an ending to all of this. You know? There is an end.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And I just the memo.

SPEAKER_01

You there's no post-it note online. No post-it note. And I I don't know why that has to come because I love everybody so much. Yeah. I can't imagine that there is a time when I'm gonna be wherever I am. Yeah, I that's a part which is clenching tight.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And that makes sense because your whole man cave and brand studio up here is representative of that. You're a chronic hoarder of sentimental things.

SPEAKER_03

You're right.

SPEAKER_04

So for someone like you, it would be really, really difficult to let go because we we come into this world and we make these meaningful connections to relationships, to things, to people, to experiences, to all that life has to offer. So having to let that go is something that is really hard for you to do. And I get that. That that could be it could be.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting. That's a parallel you've you've picked up on. And I wonder whether that's a big part of my um the problem with accepting that there's I really keep jumping back to to nostalgia and to previous times. I've I collect friends and I will, you know, I have another close friend of mine who's like, how do you stay in touch with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, just because they were part of my life when I was 12, 13, 8, 9, I I just want them all to be there.

SPEAKER_04

And maybe there's this point that's and I mean it's just coming to me now that that's okay. You know, maybe there's no changing that, just surrendering to it and accepting it. And then when the time comes where you have to say goodbye, you have to say goodbye. And knowing that memories are medicine. You know, that that thought, memories are our medicine. So the fact that you've been making them and you love them so much, it ultimately becomes your medicine in the time that you do have to say goodbye. And maybe not having to prepare so much or think about it until it happens is is a healthy way. No one's here to say any different. You know, and maybe being green is the best way to be.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe it is.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe be I've been forced into a place where I'd have to be death comfortable, but maybe in an ideal world I'd like to be green again, too.

SPEAKER_01

I understand that. Because I mean, but having been on the other side of this podcast now and listening to each episode with amazing people, you know, it's made me kind of awaken parts of me that are sort of like, okay, well, there are real people who are who are facing this and dealing with it, and and they've somehow attended that day in school that I missed. And that's been educative for me. I mean, I feel like I've grown a lot through, you know, listening to your episodes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's exciting.

SPEAKER_04

So, do you want to talk to to our listeners about the time that I arrived?

SPEAKER_01

Classic Buchy. Let's talk about that. I'd call it Classic Bucci now because now that I know you a lot better. You know, uh, okay, the doorbell rings and it's Butchie to come and talk about her podcast. And she's standing at the door, the glass door, and I can see she's carrying a bag, and I'm like, okay, that's cool. You know, whatever. That's not not couldn't could couldn't be anything. It's just, you know, her stuff. Comes in and she's like, Oh, I just right in front of me was this dead, dead raven or crow. Massive black crow. Massive. And I'm like, okay, that's an interesting story. She goes, and I've got it here. I'm so sorry. But I'm gonna have to perform a ritual on it. Yeah. You know, while it's sort of semi-fresh, I guess that's the word. So then she goes out into the laneway, and I'm like, oh my god, right? Um, I don't understand. Is she like a witchcraft kind of thing? Is there something going on? Uh what have I got myself into? Like, is this gonna become like yes? Voodoo woman. Voodoo, exactly. And fair enough, she went out and performed this beautiful ritual over a beautiful looking bird that was in full, full form. And you remember that when you came in, I was wearing a t-shirt that said birds aren't real. It was just kind of all it was it was kind of meant to be.

SPEAKER_04

It was crazy, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'm looking back, I must have looked completely nut. I mean, well it's crazy. Who carries a dead bird around?

SPEAKER_01

Who rescues a dead bird on the ground, first of all, and who gives it its love and its its thing and it's it fits so well with you being a doula because that's what it's about, giving assistance and respect to the dying. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

All sent in beans.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And I mean, I was taught, look, just for a little bit of feedback, so people don't think I'm completely mad, but as a shaman She's not mad. Uh, when I did Native American Indian teachings, um, that when animals die, there's the spirit there, and you if you can, just hold space for it to to elevate. But the there's medicine in that. And a couple of weeks prior, a friend of mine had asked me, Look, have you got a crow wing? Because my crow wings finished for smudjin. And how you receive wings um is the bird will die for you. So I was leaving the hospital, and this beautiful fresh crow, like it had clearly been electrocuted or something, and maybe I had a heart attack, was just lying fresh right outside my car. So asking you shall receive. I was like, okay, to my friend, the only way I can get this crow is I've got to ask to receive it. So I did, and it was perfect. And then I had to see you in five minutes around the corner, and it was a hot day. So I can't. So I ran into a house and said, Could I please get a bag or something? And the person gave me a Kohl's paper bag. The bird was so heavy that it ended up ripping. And so I I got to you and I thought, well, I can't leave the bird in the car because it's hot. Yeah. And it's gonna be revolting when I get back. Yeah. So I had to carry it in, and it was really confronting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, hi Mikey, I'm here to turn people off your clients.

SPEAKER_04

I've got a dead crow here that I actually have to tend to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because it's spirit still there, and it's what I believe. And you were just so gentlemanly about it, and you went and got a oh, there was a dog. Was there a dog here? Someone's dog was downstairs.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, Oh, I've got to get the crow out there.

SPEAKER_04

Had to go out. Then we left, then you gave me a plastic bag, we left the crow out there, and I've got the crow now.

SPEAKER_01

So the podcast still happened, so I wasn't I accepted it. But I got to see you practicing what you're preaching, which is that that every being has respect. Yeah. And ultimately, death has to be respected. And this word death, I I try to avoid it so much. I really try and not let it enter my mind. There are times when I'm on my own in my bed, just thinking left with my own thoughts, and it goes to that feeling again of one day all this isn't going to exist. One day I'm not going to exist. The the ego part of me just can't be separated yet. I don't know when it will. Maybe it's getting closer to every funeral I go to where I'm so awkward, I don't know what to say. I don't. No one enjoys funerals. You'd have to be weird to enjoy them, I think. I just don't cope well with them.

SPEAKER_04

I totally understand that. I think it's not an enjoyable. You can have an experience at funerals. You can have some really big aha moments. And there are certainly ones that stand out more than others.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Especially when the person who died was resolved and everybody around them can celebrate their life. That's when especially an experience ceremonies.

SPEAKER_01

Why do we say long life? Like what what who wants do we want a long life because it's it means that like, okay, they've passed, but you have a long life? Shouldn't they have had a long life too?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I guess I guess it's just the honoring of may you have a long and I always put in healthy. Yeah. Yeah, which I like to do.

SPEAKER_01

I might do that.

SPEAKER_04

Wishing a long life is it's look, I think it's a clever thing in many ways because it allows somebody to say something, especially awkward people like yourself. Everyone just goes, long life, long life, wishing you in the family long life. Yeah. Um Because we own we're only here for a short time. And when it's cut short, you want to say a long life. If someone's had a long life, we wish for everyone else a long life too, that we were blessed enough to live the linear timeline. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that's And in and in other kind of um uh faiths it's kind of like um sorry for your loss.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

That's it. That's enough to say that just sort of follows suit. Because I guess you are. That makes more sense to me. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry for your loss. Yeah. So it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_04

Some sorry is is much better, but some people are really unlook uncomfortable. How about all those people that aren't good at saying sorry anyway? All of a sudden they're sorry for your loss. It's not comfortable. I think it's it's clever to have something culturally that you do say. Yeah. And then it's also skillful to be able to learn what to say. And if you I always say to people, if you don't know what to say, you just say, I just don't know what to say. But I really am sorry. And I really feel for you. Some people don't want to be felt sorry for as well. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01

So that's also no one wants pity, some people don't. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_04

So long life is quite quite a clever little out.

SPEAKER_01

So I go to funerals and I st I I I I went to one recently where I was asked to actually help lower the body in um i in the coffin. And I kind of nearly froze.

SPEAKER_04

You know, that's like the one here's another example of being right front and center in depth. Remind you earlier. I haven't really been around depth.

SPEAKER_01

So when someone close you know asks you and you're lowering a coffin into death. We'd love you to have the honour of doing it. I I was like, yeah, I can't walk. Don't they know you? So here I am standing there with a leather piece or a cord, and I'm lowering this body that was not heavy, but as I looked down into the ground, and I looked down into the ground, and I just still was was left with more questions than I had answers for. It was just like, what, but is that it? That's it. What if what if what if you wake up or what if you that's it? Like, you know, there ain't no more of my hoarding of musical gear. What happens to all this gear? Like, where does that go? Does that just move on to somebody else? I've been the recipient of things of other people and it feels okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And all these things that I collect the vintage kind of gear, that's been had other spirits and lives before me because it's old, it's from the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. I just can't imagine a life that doesn't include me. Now, is that ego? Am I lost in this thing that I'm worth something so much that I'm so important? I just don't know. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it doesn't sort of suit you. I don't think it's ego, it's just you don't want to leave because you're having such a great time. That's nothing wrong with that. Like, I don't want to go. I'm I've had I'm loving life. I think life is beautiful. I also think it's dark. Um, so there's times in humanity with humanity that I'm really disappointed. And I'm like, get me out of here.

SPEAKER_01

But if I say to you, are you fearful of dying? What would be your answer now?

SPEAKER_04

No, absolutely not. It's a finally, the only thing that I'm annoyed at is that if I'm right, which I think in the Great Mystery, that there is something more. I've seen it, I've seen it myself, I've witnessed it so many times. I don't know what it's like to go through the portal, but I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01

So here's the if you could show me right here and now, someone can walk through this door right now and say, just don't stress.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm dead.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's really, really cool. Yeah. And everything that you do, you'll get to do, and you'll be with all the people you do, not just a theory or a thing, and only people that have experienced and had connections with the afterlife.

SPEAKER_04

There's lots of people that have a near-death experiences, and you go and look at it, and they all say the same thing. Yeah. At the bedside, your grandmother reaching out. You know, you have to believe. You know, there's it that's up to you. We can all tell you that.

SPEAKER_01

So religion helps you believe, and I'm not religious. Well, spirituality helps you believe, and I haven't quite found my connection to that. So I'm sort of drifting in this place where I don't kind of have a um a a manuscript to follow to give me answers for things.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but you haven't attached That I trust. And that's what I was about to say. You haven't attached anything that you trust. Yeah. Yeah. That you believe because you're probably just too practical. Um but it's also okay to believe that that's it. And you might just have to get comfortable with that with the idea that is that it's you just get lowered into the ground, you're done, and none of your possessions go with you. That's it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Is that such a It's not, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

Um no, it's not. It's not like suddenly I'd have comfort if you said you're gonna have this guitar or that. Yeah. I don't even I can't even quite yet understand there's not yet comfort yet in thinking, oh well, my kids or wife or anything that people you love, parents are gonna be near you. I don't quite understand that because I still don't accept that that. What does that all matter? Why do people get buried together and things like that if there's no So many questions. Yeah, well you can see. I mean Is this a seven-part uh Listen?

SPEAKER_04

I thought it would be a a head F to be in my head, but I'm realising right now getting in yourself.

SPEAKER_01

You've chosen the wrong person.

SPEAKER_04

Oh wow. It's fascinating. Let's talk about your dad with dementia. How how are you dealing with this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was a that's that's that's quite confronting, and I'm really impressed with myself that I've been able to accept it. Um he hasn't quite accepted it and talked about it. I d I think it's it's reached a stage now where it's he doesn't know what he doesn't know, he doesn't know. So I don't know if he knows there are changes happening. But every now and then I I get very I get quite sad thinking about the things that are happening around him that he would have been so much a part of. Yeah like financial things, um practical things. He's he's a guy who can build the NASA spaceship. He's an aeronautical engineer, but at the moment He's not building anything. He's not building anything. And things are happening around him where his muscle memory is telling him, I I think I used to do that, or I I'm frustrated that I can't. And it's just it's a really cruel disease. I I'm grateful that he's alive, that I can spend time with him and have coffee with him, and I don't know where it all goes. I don't know how long this happens. There's no every every dementia apparently is quite different in Alzheimer's. And um we're just as a family got onto it really early and accepted it and made some big changes. It's tough on on Mum because she's had to kind of change her whole life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And she's full of life, and and um that's hard. Yeah, it is really, really hard watching that. And it's hard watching something that I know doesn't get better.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It's really cruel, like you said. It's just the disease of losses, you know, one loss after another after another, and timing, you just don't know. There's a lot of anticipatory grief for you about that that loss, but slow, slow, slow um decline and disconnection. I love, I do love how your family did step up. You know, there's something to be said about within all of your fear and anxiety, which is very real, yeah. You still have an ability to respond in in these moments, and then you all like treasuring those coffee with him or treasuring those moments and being able to respond as opposed to being overwhelmed by anticipatory grief and by the sadness of losing dad and your connection, or watching him lose connection to that which he loves.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And it's only going to get harder. But your ability to respond is really truly profound. And the family Yeah, you all went on this trip. Remember, you went on this trip before you know.

SPEAKER_01

Building whatever memories.

SPEAKER_04

Memories. As I was saying before, memories are medicine. So what you built there is some medicine that will be your will be your guide and be your help and be your elixir long after he's gone.

SPEAKER_01

And I didn't mean this to turn into a counseling session, but something that started to come into my head just thinking about when you were saying you guys got onto this early. One reigning feature that comes from dad into both my brother and myself, and possibly my mother as well, is an element of control. And part of our response to things is how do we get control of that situation? So we we'll we'll we're onto it early. We're into dementia Australia way earlier than than there was even a diagnosis, but we were in and prepared and ready. That's from my father who just got everything in order always at any point. And I feel that word control must be a rainy feature as to why I, for some reason, have not been able to let go of things.

SPEAKER_04

Bang on. And also control is at the fundamental, it's the core of your inability to accept death.

SPEAKER_01

Cheapest therapy I've ever done. We've worked at solving your own to all my psychologists, psychiatrists, everyone I've gone to who've been trying to get there, you never got to control. How the fuck did you not get there?

SPEAKER_04

How how? How's it?

SPEAKER_01

And we just solved it then.

SPEAKER_04

We've got it, we've nailed it. I'm free. You need to let go, Mikey. Let it go. We need a jingle. We need to let go. We need to anti-control it. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

I need a song about that.

SPEAKER_04

Amazing. Um, so talk to me about nearly losing Noi, your wife, during childbirth. Was it of the fur of your firstborn?

SPEAKER_01

Was it Dylan or Levi.

SPEAKER_04

It was Levi.

SPEAKER_01

Second born.

SPEAKER_04

Um Secondborn, all right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And um there Yeah, I mean that's that's another thing about you know, you have this we had a duela.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We had a doula planned. Yeah, on the other side of you, you could you could, you know, start a a thing from from womb to tomb as a company.

SPEAKER_04

Um womb to tomb, I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Um womb to tomb, how can we help you? Yeah. And taxes in between. And you know, you have these amazing birth plans, I'm sure you did with with with the even the first one. You've got candles and music and all the kind of stuff that you think is going to be easy. But life doesn't necessarily it's a hard thing to get born.

SPEAKER_04

Uh-huh. You labour in and you labour out.

SPEAKER_01

And it can go in any any way. That's right. So I woke up um and Noy had done the amazing part of um doing most of the labour, you know, the contractions on her own without waiting. Well done, Noy.

SPEAKER_03

Well done, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing. Yeah. She sort of said, Look, it's gonna be a long time. I'll I'll I'll start the first half on my own. And you know by the time I awoke to um you know, and we were living ten minutes from from Cabrini, you know. We were in a penthouse apartment at the top. Um I quickly went into action and it was it was happening then and there. Uh-oh it was gonna happen in the bedroom. There was no way around this.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And you can plan for anything.

SPEAKER_04

No way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You can plan for anything. But I had to just go into um obstetrician mode.

SPEAKER_04

There you go. Here's the what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01

Talk about the guy who ability to respond. You tell me that plans have changed for the day and it's raining, I'll get upset and can't work out how do we solve this. Well, what's the solution to if it can't be a picnic there with a barbecue, I don't know what to do, go into a panic. You tell me there's a baby that's on its way out. Yeah. I knew to feel for the cord. Yes. I knew to to comfort her and to h help push and call the ambulance and undo the front door at the bottom, all between contractions.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

So I did that and delivered a baby.

SPEAKER_04

What a doula.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So we paid for a doula, we paid for an obstetrician. Dude, amazing.

SPEAKER_04

I didn't even know this story.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

I just know the end bit. Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so you delivered.

SPEAKER_01

I delivered Levi, yeah. He was born into the bedroom. The bedroom looked like a CSI scene.

SPEAKER_03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um Wow. There were a few other complications, and the um ambulance ran up um while I'm on the phone and um helped me cut the cord and put put Levi onto noise breasts and try and make it as normal as possible, but it turned into a medical emergency very quickly.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And we had to I was just handed Levi and they were gone.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm standing there.

SPEAKER_04

That's really traumatic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Standing there holding a baby. Yeah. Wondering why I've got breasts and I can't do anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And then I was taking an ambulance to meet her and So an ambulance came and got you.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so you fuel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I mean driving with the baby.

SPEAKER_04

One arm trying to get my nipple and I'm driving. You got there.

SPEAKER_01

And and you know, and then suddenly, you know, you're in a in a whole other world where I'm sitting there with a baby and the the the they caught a met call where all the everybody had to come to her. She has a rare blood type, she lost a lot of blood, she was she was dying.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And the chaplain came to see me, and I'm just thinking, how did this go from from that yes? Just waking up. Yeah, from birth to chaplain. And then I'm suddenly in the situation where where where noise life is in the balance, and I'm left with two kids just wondering how what do I even how do I even feed this thing that I'm holding that's so tiny and it's just had its umbilical cord cut. Yeah. And I'm holding it because it's the closest thing that I guess it it he can smell. Yeah. And wow. And that was it was terrifying, you know. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Oh Mikey. Yeah. So much love. I, you know, that is so distressing. Do you need to take a break?

SPEAKER_01

No, no. Okay, exactly. Okay. I've cried so many times over it. And I've never, I've never quite known quite how to deal with it because it's like a trauma that just stays with you forever. You know, you've you your wife's dying, your baby's born. It's like the two extremes of life.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. You've set it right there. Right. Yeah. And you're in it. And you're looking here, looking down, and then you're looking ahead, and you don't know. It's an extremely stress. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You've got responsibilities that you have to step up for.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You've got your you know, the the the love of your life is dying. Yeah. And you have to choose you can't solve the I couldn't help Noy. No. There were too many doctors around you.

SPEAKER_04

You were in God's hands. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Waiting for for rare blood to arrive.

SPEAKER_04

You say you're not spiritual and godly. How were you there? Were you praying?

SPEAKER_01

Do you know, uh, through my life I've prayed to some kind of God when I've been sick or when I've been things, and then I just sort of feel so bad about it that I never kind of follow through with it. I don't know what I'm praying to. It's just that there's has to be I'm hoping. I guess in those moments, you're hoping.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When the chaplain came in, I didn't quite understand. It wasn't didn't click to me what was going on. I was just like, that must just be the standard person they bring in. But I think it's when there's there's about to be something major that Well, they bring pastoral care in.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's really what it's called. So they're they're there for support. It's just a bit scary because they are a a Catholic priest or something, and then you just, you know, jumped to the city.

SPEAKER_01

Well, because I always I always think about movies and last year. Last rites and things like that. Exactly. Yeah, it can be. So I was really I was in mode of just holding on to this baby that's I'm so overjoyed, but so in like I don't know him.

SPEAKER_04

I mean to be giving all the birth dollars.

SPEAKER_01

Well, hadn't, you know, by the time it had all happened so quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So that that would have been an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_01

She came and came to support for Noi.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, that's what I was hoping. Um so Mikey, so yeah, because they do say, you know, Stephen Jenkinson says in his book Die Wise, there's no atheists in a foxhole from World War One.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I was just curious about you know what happened when you're just like, God, please.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I would have I think I would have prayed to something because because it was it was the most out of control situation that I was in in my entire being. Only be May that be it. And you know, she made a recovery and Levi was healthy and happy, but there's trauma within our family that I don't think I don't think all of us have ever dealt with it. I don't know how you do.

SPEAKER_04

Um well you need to to talk about it, that's the most traumatic stress.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, disorder. Yeah, it it is, and it's a very different disorder, I'm sure, that Noy has that I have been through. Of course. And you know, I can tear up in a second, as you as you heard before. It's just overwhelming that feeling. Um, but especially in light of what we're talking about, it really was, you know, maybe what we're realizing is that I've been closer to all of this than maybe I've seen more than maybe Mikey.

SPEAKER_04

Let me just tell you, I talk to a lot of people and you've seen a lot. And you've been through a lot. What I feel, you know, in our discussion is that you don't like it. You don't want to like it. You don't care to. It's there, you'd rather just push that bit aside and just continue being grateful.

SPEAKER_01

Be nice if you could interview me just after my death.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And just say, how was it?

SPEAKER_04

Well, listen, that's no, you know what? Going back to what I was saying before, the thing that annoys me is that I'm not going to be able to come back and go, I told you so. No, you need to do an afterlife, but yeah, as a crow, I need to come back to the city.

SPEAKER_01

Season 437. The podcast with the crow. Do you remember Michael when he was the crow senior? I'm with the crow. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it is interesting.

SPEAKER_04

It is interesting. I love the mystery. I think the more comfortable you are with no control, or the more secure you are in insecurity, or the more comfortable you are in discomfort, that is probably the best strategy. But as you said, God knows what happens when you're in that. Only until you've gone through the portal do we know. And so once you go through that portal liminal space, we don't know what's happening. What I do know from a lot of hospice nurses is that what it looks like on the outside, the labouring and what's actually happening to the person are two very different things.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And people will say that. And and probably for Noy during that time that she was dying, she probably doesn't remember it like oh, she wouldn't remember it like you do.

SPEAKER_01

No, she has quite clarity that she was dying. She actually remembers that.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, she she was right in it, she knew. So she she would have faced death and then survived it. So some people have a heart attack or they're unconscious or whatever that is happening to them and they don't really know what what's happening.

SPEAKER_01

And I think I was telling you that that I had to kind of remove myself from social media because I found that my algorithms collect dying people.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

I had I had to move away from TikTok and Instagram because it ended up being an obsession of someone who's just been diagnosed with cancer, just been diagnosed with this, two months to live. I just could not look away. I felt like I owed these people the 15 minutes that they've they've asked for. Yeah. But why it found me is that my whole Instagram and TikTok and everything was filled with people who were just who'd been diagnosed and dying, and that freaked the fuck out of me.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, that is freaky.

SPEAKER_01

But I found it morbidly just like, oh my god, I have to be there with this person because they I don't think that's morbid though.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's beautiful. It's a sign of the human connection. The end of the day, you're connecting with people, you've been there. You know, you've seen it, you understand it, you know how it feels. So by honoring them or anyone in that situation at that time, it's just also it's also healing.

SPEAKER_01

I just feel really, really guilty that these young people have to be diagnosed with something and have to face death.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I haven't even been under general anesthetic.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, so I have a real um just fear of getting diagnosed with anything. Because because um and maybe you've you've you've met people and I'm sure you would have, um, where they've they've had to face an an early end.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. I I feel that that fear is really justified and really everybody fears that. No one wants to get delivered a diagnosis that's lifelin or even terminal, or that it requires us to have to really dig deep to survive. It's frightening, you know. I think I think fear of death is more around for some people. I mean for you, it's when um dying full stop. But for people who are more comfortable with okay, I'm going to die, it's how and when. Or when and how. It's the two of them, really. Um I I do think deep within us, we all know we're going to die. Right? So you do know that you may not want to, which is fine.

SPEAKER_01

I know that more since this podcast.

SPEAKER_04

Life is life is great, and you've had a great time. You haven't even been under general. What do you want to die for? You've got things to do, right? You've got people to see, things to do, connections to honor. You want to meet, knowing you, you want to meet your great great-grandchildren. You know, that's a beautiful thing. No problem. Yeah. The the how and the when is really harrowing. That always gets me. It's like when. First of all, I can't die too soon because I have so many obligations.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you've got to finish this podcast.

SPEAKER_04

Well, other than the podcast, I've got everyone's death playlist, I've got everybody's memories. Everyone tells me.

SPEAKER_01

You've got a lot on your shoulders.

SPEAKER_04

And I remember it all. I haven't even written it down. I'm like, oh, that one, yep.

SPEAKER_01

I find that amazing that you've got a lot of a lot of this writing on you, and that must be pretty.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I just can't die. I've just figured, well, there's no way I'm dying. And if I do, you're all effed.

SPEAKER_02

You're all fucked.

SPEAKER_04

Because I die with a whole lot of information, and I'm on people's medical power of attorney. I'm the one that they're going, can you make this decision? No problem. So I've actually got work to do. So I'm just like, when? Probably 105. Frightening. Um, how? Oh gosh, I don't know. And I always have this fear of like, oh my gosh, working as an end-of-life duel or in death, does that mean I'm gonna have to go through all these horrible experiences so I can relate to people? That's the scary part for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I wonder. I wonder.

SPEAKER_04

Put myself out there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then am I inviting in things, experiences that go, oh, well, now I've gone through that. Now I can relate to you. I'm like, I don't want to learn it that way. I know. I often wonder.

SPEAKER_01

That's right, that's right. I wonder about that. Say you were even talking name anything because I don't I believe that things can change. Does that make you suddenly, you know what? I used to believe that, but now I don't. I'm going through absolute fear and hell. I don't know. We don't know.

SPEAKER_04

We don't know.

SPEAKER_01

So again, it's But at the moment you're you're a gift to the top humility and to the people. Taking the risk.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know what's going to happen. I can only just state I choose not to learn my lessons that way. I choose to learn my lessons through wisdom and ext hearing other people's or seeing other people's. Please, I don't want to have to go through that. I can relate, I can be compassionate, I can understand without needing to have to go through that lesson. I don't want that lesson. That's all I can do is just set that intention. But am I scared about it? Yes. I don't want to. I don't want to lose a child. I've seen what that does. My mother losing my brother. You know, so I think it's really important as you see, me coming in and we've done this podcast, I have all these guests. I'm in death, I'm on the PAL care ward, I'm fighting and around it. In government, voluntary sister dying, and I've got the same views as you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, that has to be a bit comforting.

SPEAKER_01

It has to be comforting, and yeah, your mother would be an important one to interview too, because she's gotten on with her life and made you get on with your life and been there for you amidst loss like that.

SPEAKER_04

And uh no, the woman, I mean, look, to disassociation is underrated. Like really, people always talk about being in your body. If I wasn't able to disassociate or my mum just jump out of her skin for 30 years, she wouldn't have been able to go to move on. It's a survival mechanism, and it's probably the same for you. So whilst we have to do therapy or talk to people or talk about it or do whatever resonates, or however we want to heal, it's really just honouring how you coped and what you did and what you you know, there's no right or wrong, is there?

SPEAKER_01

No. And and it was really confronting having to do a will. It was confronting I did it, I just did one.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I did it. 50% of Australians haven't.

SPEAKER_01

You're right.

SPEAKER_04

So you're in the other 50%.

SPEAKER_01

But Noy hasn't got one and she's been, you know, asking, why can't I? And I'm like, yeah, we will. I just haven't got around to it. It's just something you don't get around to, and I know it's something we we just should have.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, hang on, you said you haven't done it.

SPEAKER_01

I have done mine many years ago. But it was so like it just felt it was weird having to even there was a question about what song do you want to play at your funeral. You can imagine that's for me, that was like I waited till 52 to tick organ on my Vic Radio thing.

SPEAKER_04

Oh wow. And I did it.

SPEAKER_01

I did it recently and still regret it and fear it and kind of go, Oh my God, but I don't want my beautiful, healthy organs taken, but they're not I won't be me.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

When they're taken.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Well, there you go. So you do hard to understand that though.

SPEAKER_01

Well It's talking about a mythical time and place that I have no connection to.

SPEAKER_04

But you can just get practical about it, which is what you did. So you go, okay, I don't get it, but I'm gonna tick it and let it be. And great. I mean, you know, we've got to take the small wins, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I have to.

SPEAKER_04

I applaud that. You know, there are a lot of people that don't even talk about it. Yeah, they're terrified. You're such a great example of someone who's just so owning it.

SPEAKER_01

I'm owning it all. I mean, there's no way. I donate blood, I go and do it religiously because I feel like I'm so grateful for this life. I'm so grateful for not having been under general anesthetic. I'm so grateful for everything I have, the friends that I have, the things that I get to work on, the music I get to create. I feel blessed if there is such a thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But I um just am so sad for the people that don't get to do it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's what upsets me the most. So how do you how do I live well? How do I want to leave well? I don't know what the leave part is yet. Yeah. But I know that I'm living that part. And through your podcast and the things we've talked about, I know there are things that I can be doing to better to leave.

SPEAKER_04

Which is amazing. And I'm so happy about that because you've been so brave. I've had all these people in here, nine episodes. You have to listen to them all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But they're fascinating. I mean, I'd listen to them again. I can't wait for the next season.

SPEAKER_04

Well, the next season it's great because it's going to be more about you. So this season, you know, it's interesting because I came and I chatted with you and I said, you know, Mikey, there's no experts in death. And then I ended up with a whole panel of pretty people.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But I still maintain that we're all human, we're all doing the best we can. Yeah. And until you've actually gone through that portal and come back and reported what's happened, no one knows about death. And that Zenith Virago interview, and I adored this part where she said, you know, at the end of life, people say we're holding space for the person dying. You're not holding space for anyone. The person dying is the person dying. You've been invited into their rite of passage as they leave. And what's happening, who knows?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And that first interview that we did that we recorded hasn't yet come together for Die.

SPEAKER_03

Die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, that was amazing to watch you communicate and talk and just talk about death with someone who's who's Is it actively dying? Is that the way it's called? Or they're in the.

SPEAKER_04

But we, you know, when we recorded that, Mike, you had to get there really fast because Die, who we finally call Die Won't Die, was going to die. So we had to grab that. And then six months later she's still seven months later, she's still alive. And now she wants to die, and she can't die. And now she's applying for voluntary sister dying, and she doesn't uh you know, um they can't approve her. She doesn't meet the requirements. So it's a really, really interesting turn of like again, we can't predict anything. Um she was she was there, she was given two days to leave. Her journey is amazing. Unbelievable. Yeah. So we'll be getting her back in the studio to follow that.

SPEAKER_01

You know, it's it's it's amazing watching you embrace your chosen that you've been chosen and you've chosen for yourself a path to help other people, you know, and and listeners should go and check out all the things that you're doing and all the the new things that are going to be coming out of this because this is an important part. This should be on the curriculum that, like I said, the day in school. Give me that live well, leave well um thing, and I would have taken it in high school. Yeah. Because I would have been so like, okay, I'm really scared, but I want to know what I can do.

SPEAKER_04

And kids are astounding. You know, when you have open conversations, and in my family, we talked about death all the time. All the time, because we had a country, property, and you'll find this as a common theme with people who live in the country is that death with because you're surrounded by nature. Animals and things, yeah, that's right. So, you know, and most people understand the death of a pet. Did you have a pet that died when you were young? Yeah. How did you cope with that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was forced to take him on my own and hold him while he was put down.

SPEAKER_04

It's another story.

SPEAKER_01

That was really good.

SPEAKER_04

Mike, you're a birth jeweler and a death jeweler.

SPEAKER_01

I'm a compassionate person. I am. I I hold humans very, very sacredly. I would try to help whoever I could at any time that I could.

SPEAKER_04

So you were given the job to hold your dog while they put him down or her him down.

SPEAKER_01

Toffee.

SPEAKER_04

Your Toffee, your first pet.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, my first pet.

SPEAKER_04

How did you cope with that? What did you do?

SPEAKER_01

I wrote a poem afterwards and it was kind of like a thank you note to the family.

SPEAKER_04

So you dealt with death a lot better as a child. Yeah. Isn't it interesting? That's so back to my point. Children are open, responsive. They don't have a lot put on them. I mean, I think that the damage is when you have a bad experience. So I have a lot of friends that have told me their first death experiences. I asked that question a lot. What was your first death experience? If it was traumatizing, it has absolutely shaped the way that they've responded for the up until now. If it was a positive one, they again are shaped by wow, okay, that was really good. And some of the stories are horrifying. Someone at a funeral saying, you know, just look at the red brick and the red brick wall and stare at that and don't think about anything else. So just taught complete and utter disconnect.

SPEAKER_01

Blank it out.

SPEAKER_04

The other one was um the being not being allowed to go to the grandmother's funeral. No, you know, children don't belong at at funerals. So just feeling robbed, the one day here, next day gone, no ceremony, no process, or one that did go and the sound of the coffin was horrifying, or the dirt hitting the coffin just terrified the child. Really, really difficult. So the one thing around it all is always conversation. The more it's talked about, discussed, um the person leaning the conversation has to be feeling strong, yeah, loving, compassionate. It's a core human event, and the more we talk about it, which is what we're doing. It's interesting what we've uncovered today in this podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

It's uh from what you started, where we've ended.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I'll I'll um put send leave a check for you for the counselling session. That was No, it is. It's it's it's something that I yeah, I aspire to. And um I really, really relish the fact that we've been able to talk about it. And I think this is gonna be really important for people to listen to.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um there's a lot of people, I dare say, like me, who are just kind of going, la la la la la, it's not happening, it's not happening, it's not happening, but it is happening, and we all know it's happening. Yeah, but you know, you tell me that I've got to do some, you know, other things in life. Just talk. Just talk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then the things that land with you, which, you know, a few things have landed over these six months that you've heard and you've gone, you know what, I can do that. Especially the culling, um, cleaning out mum and dad's that holiday with them, just just really accepting, okay, this is where dad's journey is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they've still got a house full of stuff. They can't do it. We've managed to downsize and it's been the most cathartic exercise. For someone like me who holds onto nostalgia, it's been really, really um cathartic, letting go of things. And actually, once they're out of your sight and they're if anyone listening who is facing that, just once it's gone from your site and it's in a bin, it's like, it's like if you've got if you're ever dieting, and I've I've dieted many times, and and this I'm holding some chocolate, the minute I can put it in the bin and know that I won't be going scrounging, although I have scrounged sometimes for chocolate.

SPEAKER_04

I do it on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01

It goes in the bin.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If you can smoosh it into something in the better, you know, because you won't go back for it. But once your rubbish is gone from your from your life, it's amazing. And I feel so at the moment, we we feel like we've done this 15 years ahead of time and it's sort of.

SPEAKER_04

You notice those crates of albums of emptied.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Where have they gone? What did you do?

SPEAKER_01

I won't tell you where they've gone. Albums are one thing I can't do, and books no I can't do. So we've got a mutual understanding with that. But chachkas and obje d'art and art and things that you just know it's someone else can have a can move on to that, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It's actually quite the vinyl is hard to let go of.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a lot of lot down there. As we walk past, you'll see all the vinyl sitting there and the and the shelf is buckling underneath it. But I will get to that one day. Guitars hard to do at the moment.

SPEAKER_04

And you have to do mum still, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's that's something I brought up the other day, and they just can't they can't face it at the moment. I don't they just won't. It's too hard. It's literally then the it's not at a it's not definitely by any means like those hoarder shows you see where they're really in trouble and it's taken over the house. It's it's more that there's just stuff that from their parents too, and other parents.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't want to hold on to all of that too. I'm really conscious now that we have to be discerning.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And say, Okay, yeah, I do remember. Pick one thing. Yeah. This is what I always say. I'm doing it with my mum now. Pick one thing and give to each grandchild. Pick something uh from that era and the rest has to go or be repurposed and passed on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's part of living well and leaving well, letting other people leave well and preparing for for cleaning, making things. This is an interesting part of preparing mum and dad is is we've helped her clean out her life to make to simplify it. Yes. Financial things, simplifying things. Oh, yeah. Just so that she can live for help hopefully for many, many, many, many more years. But it will be easier.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, so much easier. Well, the the less you need, I mean, it's that's exactly what leaving well is. It's making sure that you organize things in a way that is manageable when your loved one dies. Because the less that you have to do in the aftermath and the less admin, the more you can really sit in in that process and also the in in your grieving and your mourning. But the process getting there actually fixes many relationships or deepens, not even fix it, actually creates connection. You have these memories where you're sorting through things and then stories come out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's it. And they tell you things, and it's a really special Don't you find it interesting that some people can talk about this so naturally? Like my Noise family, they can just talk about death. When I first met them, you know, before we got married, I'm sure we were sitting at a table and they were already talking about how they'd like to die. Whereas my family, no, don't ask that. I don't want to know that. You know, so I don't really know what they want.

SPEAKER_04

Well, you have to just start the conversation. Yeah. You have to say, listen, we got to get practical. Yeah. And then from the practical comes the emotional. Yeah. And then the spiritual and the physical things happen. That's what I always say. You've just got to start the conversation.

SPEAKER_01

So start at the end and then work backwards.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, or at the start and work forwards. I don't know. However it goes. But a conversation needs to be had. Look, I've seen too much of this happen. You know, this is how you start it. This is we all have a story. Someone tells everybody has a story about somebody that's something terrible's happened. And that's where you start. I've heard this story. I was sitting at the funeral, yeah, and I thought to myself, what if? So we need to actually talk about this because I don't want to be at that funeral thinking, what if? You know, and it's a really interesting thing. You know, your brother's idea uh might be different to your idea of what needs to be done with the things.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04

So my mum, it's like, okay, we've organized that we're going to put everything on display in the house.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

She wants to invite everybody over to take a peek.

SPEAKER_01

That's really nice.

SPEAKER_04

And after everybody's taken a piece.

SPEAKER_01

And this is in the living. Or this is now.

SPEAKER_04

Amazing. Every week at Ma John, she turns up with a pair of shoes. For my friend, who's the only one. She calls herself Cinderella because she keeps fitting my mum's vintage shoes. And all of us in the family, there are six girls, and we've we don't have her shoe size. We're talking a Melda Marcos here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, she really has got to be.

SPEAKER_04

Like it's devastating. Devastating.

SPEAKER_01

Any Vivian Westwood by any chance?

SPEAKER_04

No, she didn't do. No. No, she wasn't that a bit more classic. That's probably a bit wild. A bit more classic.

SPEAKER_01

Impressed that I know those words.

SPEAKER_04

I am actually. So she's given, gifted that.

SPEAKER_01

So good. When you met my mom here, she was telling you a story about her best friend who just died and her friend came and gave her things. Now that really freaked me out. But um you were just like, yeah, that's uh kind of how lucky that she has a p a keepsake.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I think it's beautiful. When you when somebody gifts you something, that's the stuff that you keep that is meaningful. But then of course, when I die, it's not meaningful to my kids. So that just goes, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So you just have to have things photo albums are a hard one from the 70s and 80s.

SPEAKER_04

They are going to take photos of all of them and digitally store them or put them all or get someone to make them into a book. There's always one crazy person in the family that will do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I'll probably end up doing that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it'll be you for sure. Yeah. But I think when it comes to storing, take them out of the albums and just get them digitally photographed, and then you've got them. And then if you want to keep them, you just store them out of the album, but they s they lose their quality anyway.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's it.

SPEAKER_04

So eventually they go so you might as well just have them.

SPEAKER_01

And I think because so much of our kids' generation is gonna be cloud-based stuff that we don't even know. We just snap, snap, snap. There's not like you have 12 shots to make sure they're the best shots ever. Exactly. It almost would be great to that products like this exist where there's just sort of a screen and you just have things rotating all day, every day.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

From thousands of people. It's a great idea. And then you look up and you don't know what era, but it's gonna be something, and that's probably the best way.

SPEAKER_04

And also people need to be taught quality over quantity again, because how often do you just have one photo? Yeah. Like I grew up with we lost a lot of our photos, so I know the quality. So when you have something, you just love it. And there's usually a couple of images, but people need to choose one photo from each year of each person, and then it you just build up over decades.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there'll be jobs for sorters.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, I'll do it. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

All right, Mikey.

SPEAKER_03

One, two, three, four, five questions.

SPEAKER_04

So we're up to uh fast five, Mikey. Yeah. Here we go. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

All right. One, we know you're a hoarder, especially with records. What would be your ideal outcome for where all your keepsakes and favorite toys go?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's interesting you mentioned, I mean, records are one of the things. Guitar amps, guitars, and CDs, which I can't listen to anymore. Cassettes I've moved on from. But yes, records, vinyl records are just hard for me. But recently I found a company, you know, there's all these crazy companies where you can put your ashes into a tree, you can put your ashes into a rocket ship. Rocket ship. I found one that actually puts it into the lathe of a vinyl wax record. So you can actually put the songs you want on there, and then you can have your final I mean. Can you imagine that? We're just gonna play Uncle, we're gonna play Grandfather Michael, Grandpa Michael. This is him inside a record. Just go. Yeah, it'll have sort of static and kind of things. Um but that's the craziest thing. I'm kidding. I don't I just don't know if I'd go through with it. You'd have to just sort of make that decision for me. But know that that's one of my options. Yeah, yeah. Good option.

SPEAKER_04

I think someone will will make that happen.

SPEAKER_01

Both my legs and turn that into a vinyl uh, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Genius. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

If my eyeballs haven't already gone from my signing over of my organs, you know, that's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, number two, what's your go-to? Oh, this is gonna be hard for you. What's your go-to life anthem album that best sums you up?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that that is really hard because I'm never good at that take five albums, take fifty albums on Desert Island. I can't take fifty. But I will think about one that's meant a lot to me in the last ten years, and that is um uh Hotel. That's a Wilk Wilco is the band name, and it's um Oh, I love Wilko. Yankee Foxtrot. You know, they're the the sort of seminal um Hotel Yankee Foxtrot.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, wow. I'm gonna go listen to it.

SPEAKER_01

I saw them live with the blues vet, they're brilliant. Yeah, I'd go with that.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, nice one. I'm gonna have to get to know you better by listening to this album now.

SPEAKER_01

It's a great album.

SPEAKER_04

I love that you picked the last ten years because it's it's about how we grow, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and that's one album that stays constant, you know. Um it was it was it can change all the time, and I've always got different things spinning, but that seems to be one that seems to come back in my adult years. You know, you listen to things differently as you get older.

SPEAKER_04

So you grow with it. It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

All right, number three. If Death had a brand jingle, how would it sound?

SPEAKER_01

Death had a brand jingle.

SPEAKER_04

Mr.

SPEAKER_01

Jingle. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

You make the best.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I do, but I'm I think I'm gonna pull out my little pocket guitar.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

Fairly spontaneous. Yep. And we're gonna stay, I'm gonna start with G. That's better. So I guess be a little bit little pensive like that, but I guess it would be um you gotta smile.

SPEAKER_00

You gotta laugh. You gotta let go of records. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_01

And I you want to break into always look on the bright side of life, but I think it's just it's time to die.

SPEAKER_00

You've gotta die. We're all gonna die. Now we're dead. Dead, dead. That's it.

SPEAKER_04

I finished on a great great look at you leaning into death like that.

SPEAKER_01

I know, I felt so death positive then.

SPEAKER_04

I'm so proud of you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was like the most happiest song I've ever written.

SPEAKER_04

I'm gonna charge you for this, you know. I'm changing my mind. Look at what's happened. Number four, what's one spiritual or soulful truth you hold on to, even as a skeptic or a creative?

SPEAKER_01

Um, a soulful truth is that um were you loved and did you love well? I think they're two really important parts that ring true and true as I get older.

SPEAKER_00

Was I loved? Yeah, I was.

SPEAKER_01

Did I love well? Yeah, I really did. Beautiful. So if I can hold both of those and know that I did it to the end, I feel like if there is some left and right when we get up there, I think I'll be going to the right place because I really feel I've done the human human beings the right, the right.

SPEAKER_04

Amen to that. Yeah. Hallelujah. I love that. Yeah. And finally, when you leave well, what's the hook line you want people to remember you by?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, just do it.

SPEAKER_04

Yay. Beautiful. Love it. Awesome, Mikey. Thank you so much. You have. We're watering that plant.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

See you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_04

You've been listening to Live Well, Leave Well by Me, Bachi. If you or someone you know would benefit in some way, shape, or form from this episode, please share it. It would mean the world to me. And hopefully, it might mean the world to someone else. Catch you soon on the next episode. Live Well, Leave Well was recorded and mixed with original music by Brand Music and produced by Michael Burroughs.