The Journey With Dr Mercy Ofuya on Purpose, Failing Forward, Impact & Innovation

This week I’m joined by Dr. Mercy Ofuya — a medical statistician and healthcare innovator using data, technology, and compassion to transform cancer care in underserved communities.
 
 With over a decade of experience in research methodology, clinical trial design, and digital health innovation, Dr. Mercy holds a Doctor of Optometry degree, a Master’s in Medical Statistics from the University of Southampton, and a PhD in Medical Statistics from King’s College London.
 
 Her passion for global cancer control led to the creation of two powerful initiatives:
 ✦ CupArise — a nonprofit advancing breast health awareness through the Mami mobile app
 ✦ Annexis Health — where she serves as Co-founder & CEO, building Mkono, a digital platform enabling early cancer detection and remote patient monitoring in low-resource settings
 
 A recipient of multiple awards including the Vanessa Moss Prize (RSM Oncology), the David Walsh Award, and the People’s Choice Award, Dr. Mercy is on a mission to improve early cancer detection and expand access to healthcare for those who need it most.
 
 In this powerful episode, we dive into her story, her mission, and the movement she’s building through Mami and Mkono. This is a conversation you don’t want to miss.
 
 Connect with Dr. Mercy Ofuya:
 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mercy-ofuya-phd
 Instagram: @mercyofuya
CupArise: @cuparise_breastcancer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Okay. My guest today is Dr. Mercy Ofoya, a medical statistician and healthcare innovator with over a decade of experience in research methodology, clinical trials, and digital health. She holds a Doctor of Optometry from University of Benin, a master's in medical statistics from the University of Southampton, and a PhD in medical statistics from King's College, London. She is the founder of Copper Rise, a nonprofit addressing breast health awareness in underserved communities, through its flagship Mummy Mobile app. She is also the co-founder and the CEO of Annex Health, a digital platform improving early cancer diagnosis. Dr. Mercy has also received a number of awards, including the Vanessa Moss Prize from the Royal Society of Medicine in 2023, the David Welsh Award in 2023, and the People's Choice Award. She's passionate about improving early cancer diagnosis and access to care for underserved population. She lives in the UK with her husband and two children. Before we go any further, I'll get you to introduce yourself, Dr. Mercy.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Hi, Faith. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor and privilege to be here. And it's great to be able to chat with you as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah. My name is Mercy. And I'm a mom. I've got two kids. For me, that's pretty much one of my most important job of all the things I do. And um yeah, like you said, my I one of the core things I do is really to in everything I do is to bring hope to people. That's something I really enjoy. And in the course of what I do, I lead to organizations. Um and the overall goal is to improve access to people, to patients, and you know, to people in communities in underserved populations, underserved communities, whether in here in UK, in developed countries, or people living in low and middle-income countries. And that's really core what I do and what I'm really what keeps what keeps me awake and what keeps my heart going.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

So for anyone listening today, what would you like them to take away from our conversation?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I'm looking forward to sharing my story. I'm looking forward to, of course, answering your questions, and I hope that in the course of that, um, as I share my own heart and experiences, that anyone listening will be encouraged, would be enlightened, and hopefully you know inspired. And ultimately, I hope that it will add in some way to their own journey in either encouraging them in what they are doing currently or what they plan to do or how they see themselves in the world.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Amazing. So your career spans from optometry, medical statistics, digital health, innovation. How did this whole journey start? You know, how did that start?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, I'm I'm smiling because uh when I think of it, I find it amusing myself. Um, for me, it's really been an adventure. I I think the first thing I'll say is my career has definitely not been linear in any shape or form. However, when I look through it, I see the common thread. And you know, to answer your question with respect to you know, how did it start? Um think, okay, how far back can I go? So, firstly, I studied optometry. Um, I've ended up studying optometry. I studied optometry because I actually got into the University of Benin to study dentistry, and then I failed um chemistry my first year. I failed it, I had to repeat the year. I think I failed about five courses. Um, so and then I had to repeat the year, and then I failed chemistry. I remember it's chemistry one or four, organic chemistry. I failed it again, and so I was asked to either change department or withdraw from um the university as a whole, and so I chose to you know change department, and I chose optometry because there was an element of health care that has to caring for you know people's um vision, and there was a substantial um component of physics. I loved physics and maths when I was in high school, so I it it I was drawn to that, and I felt okay, yes. And I was also thinking of you know job prospects when I graduated. So yeah, so I chose optometry. After in the course of doing optometry, my final year I fell in love with um research that's in terms of analyzing data. Then we just did it with our calculators anyway. Um, and then after my first job, which involved working with um an NGO, going around providing free medical health care in Nigeria where I studied, um, I then decided I wanted to go more into you know research, but more from the angle of analyzing data, clinical trials. And so I came to the UK to then start do a master's in medical um statistics, then went on to do a PhD in that. Yeah. So that's how it started in optometry, and then I went into research during my PhD, I worked part-time as well. So I did all that, and then went into after my PhD, I started working fully, I worked fully in cancer research. And yes, so that's how the transition from optometry to uh medical statistics, and um, but all in all, there was the common thing was always to help people. Like I remember one of the core things I remember from when I was um working as an optometrist was being in a village and where we're caring for patients. There was a lady who came in, and she by the time we gave her reading glasses, her complaint was really that she couldn't thread a needle. She was a six stress in the village and she couldn't thread a needle. And then when we the joy on her face, the fact that you know she could not get back to working and earning, you know, being able to earn a living and not being, you know, with that sort of financial independence, um, was just it warmed my heart. And I just from then I learned that you know the patient should always be at the core of whatever we do. It doesn't really matter what we do. So even if you work in a bank or this is my philosophy, or whatever, that security, the manager, or you cook, everything we do affects the human a human being at the end of the day, whether even logistics, what even if you don't see relate with your customers or your clients, but everything you do affects a human being at the end of the day, and always to sort of keep that at the center of your mind. And so that's something that's really central to everything I've done so far. They may be different, but it's the central theme has remained the same to help people to give hope.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, that's amazing. So when you said that before you went into optometry, you said you failed about five times. How did I five courses?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Five courses. I cried, I cried. Oh god, I cried, I cried, I was ashamed. I could I was scared to go home. I was scared to tell my parents because I knew I felt they would be livid. And for months I just stayed in school, even though I wasn't for a few months. Yeah, I stayed in school. I was trying to see if I could change without letting them know, use my pocket money to buy the form and everything, and then tell them afterwards. Um, but eventually I had to go home and then tell them. And in fact, my dad then wrote me a letter telling me how he had also experienced you know setback while he was at university. And then it then encouraged at that moment, you know, I felt seen and yeah, but I would have to say it was devastating. Um, yeah, it was but but then I at least I learned something from it that experience sort of was a wake-up call, and I had to ask myself questions on in terms of no, why did that happen and how did that happen? Because you know, how haven't we been like a stellar, a step, not like a stellar student from primary sch in primary school, struggled in my first three years of secondary school, um, really improved in my final years in um high school. Then coming to the first year of university, feeling like, oh my god, you know, I came in with almost all A's and and then yeah, I I felt I felt ashamed, but and then people started telling me stories of oh, this person, you know, how people had filled out of courses and were doing phenomenally well in the new things they had done. So that gave me courage as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

And then I soldiered on, but I definitely yeah, so just wanted to ask you because you've said that. So for anyone or any students that's faced that type of challenge, I mean, what would you say to them or anyone going through some type of challenge? Um, if they feel that they are, you know, they haven't succeeded first time round, you know, because you talked about changing the path. So, what would you say to that person listening right now?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I would say the first thing is you realizing you still have a chance, not giving up, deciding not to give up. And there are certain things that are said often that people consider cliche. However, they may sound cliche, but they're actually true. That's why they are said again and again. And there's that phrase of fail fail forward. If you fail, get up, ask yourself, you know, why did that happen? Um, and then try to figure out how you can correct it or what change can be made. Sometimes it may mean doing something completely different, taking a different direction. It may mean having to stay the course and doing things. There will have to usually be an element of difference, either something you do outwardly or sometimes even in our self-talk to how you see yourself. I and something I learned in university, because even studying optometry still wasn't very easy for me, because there was a time when I realized I couldn't, I wasn't very good at memorizing things like my classmates. I just wanted to read, understand, and write it down in my own way, not verbatim. But I noticed people who did it explain things verbatim as they were in the notes and the text was got the higher scores. But then I had to become aware of how I study and how I learn and how to you know harness that, and there's that element of that, but you have to do the self-work and um you know um ask yourself why things happened and how you can change them. And something I did learn again, and even in in uni was you know, there's a time where you you you may fail if you fail a course, you there's a tendency to study with your classmates, especially if it's for the previous year who failed you, which is not bad. But sometimes it's something I learned that shifted for me was studying that same course with the best in the other class, in the class that was below me. That sort of because I realized they were studying it differently from all of us who had failed it together, and then that really sort of was like a lever that sort of put me forward.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, that's that's amazing. So, what first sparked your passion for the global cancer um control, in particular with underserved communities? Why did you want to do that?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, so uh so interestingly, um while I was working, so I worked at the Institute of Cancer Research for um a few years, and in the process of that, I'd become familiar with um with the UK's statistics for in terms of cancer, the rates, survival rates, and you know, I know I knew what things were working, just broadly speaking, particularly in disease areas I was assigned at the time. Um, I was familiar with those, with the data for the UK, US, Europe broadly. And then after a few years, I decided on my own to take a career break for personal reasons. I just wanted to wake up in the morning on a Monday morning and just be mom and nothing else for a period. I told myself, I mean, I you know, I spoke with my husband, you know, I had his support, and I just told myself I'll just be for you know like six months and then I'll go back. Medical statisticians and biosurgians, they're usually, I mean, getting a job is not difficult, especially with explain when you're experienced. So there's usually high demand. So I was I there wasn't that fear of oh, how will I get back into the workforce? I just told myself I'll take out six months, take this career break, get a breather. Um, because I had my daughter just before as I finished my PhD and they started working. So I never really took a proper break in a sense. So yeah. So I just told myself, I'll take a career break. And then in the process, in the course of that, I um I was at home and then got came across the news that someone really close to our family, um, who I call you know my friend, um, her name's Fulushaw, and she she had passed away, you know, due to cancer. And that really touched me because she was someone I really loved. Looking, I really looked forward to meeting, you know, during family gathering. She was such a sweet lady. I didn't even know she was ill. Um, and by the time you know we started hearing backstory, she wasn't ill for a long time. So, and like one of the skills I have is in terms of doing systematic reviews. So, well, here I am sitting at home with time on my hands, I started researching, you know, cancer, why, no, what's happening, no, I I wasn't familiar, I'm originally from Nigeria and I wasn't familiar with cancer stats in Nigeria. And so I started reading things, uh, articles, you know, research papers online, and I found out that the while you have, say, for instance, in terms of like early state breast cancer, where you have 80% of patients, so that would be 8 in 10 patients say surviving for five to up to 10 years, you know, after treatment here in the UK and in the US, people who live in places like Nigeria and Africa and other and similar countries, what we had was eight in 10 of those patients actually dying. So the mortality rates were pretty high. Um, so the death rates were pretty high from breast cancer, essentially the up significantly the opposite, you know. And I I I was shocked. And in a very, I have to say, in a very naive way, I said I said, okay, we have to try and solve this. So I called up, I called up my um a friend of mine who she's a behavioral um scientist, because I felt it we had to do with maybe if we could get people to seek help early and to try to improve early presentation to get to the doctors early, and then if they're diagnosed early and they start treatment early, it will increase the chances. That's what the evidence showed. So and I felt if that was the case, then how do we get women to do that? And so I called my friend Nim, the behavioral scientist, and I called um my cousin who was working in the US, also in global health at this time, and pulled together a few friends by you know, different who pulled other people, Shayba. I'm calling their names now because it's so still very fresh and remarkable. Kelly Chi Jimaka, you know, several friends you know came together, um, or especially another friend, if I may not remember all their names now to call them. And they were volunteering their time, we're just brainstorming what we should do. And so that's how it started very naively. We just thought, oh, we'll just do this one off project and sort of sail into the sunset and move on. And then people said, So, oh, you need to give it structure, you need to do this. And then I needed to uh needed to read some more, attend conferences, really understand what was happening. Spoke to many several doctors in working in Nigeria and in other countries, um, emailed people, got on phone calls with people I'd never met, you know, and it was during COVID by this time, and yeah, so we're a lot of I was doing a lot of things online. That's how I sort of stepped into it. So I have to say it was naive. I sort of stumbled into it. And then, but in terms of my why was really how do we help people, how do we give people hope, how do we let them know that um it's possible that if detected and treated early, that their chances of survival were very high, you know, depending on the cancer type, obviously. And yeah, and irrespective of where they live, how do we get help to people, or how do we help people access help, support people in accessing help, essentially? So that's yeah how I walked into it.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, because one of the things you said in terms of like behavioral, um, coming, you know, within our society in Africa, and you know, for example, in Africa and in Asia, there's always some type of a stigma, isn't there, when people so they don't want to talk about it because of the shame or um did you did you find that with the people you you might have spoken to, or yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So in the course of so as we started work, um one of the first things we did was to uh we did a podcast, it's called Copar's Podcast, it's uh freely available for people to hear. Then we we started Mammy, we then we over time we developed Mammy app with a team of volunteers. And in the course of doing that, we then of course started engaging with people, and we realized we started getting messages on the back end, so either through Instagram, you know, people try to they were DMing um our page, DMing us, or sometimes DM me or DM some one if you have my volunteers, or even other people who were sharing the app saying, okay, I noticed something on my breast, but I don't want to go to the hospital yet. Who can I talk to? Or I don't want anyone to see me, and or I know people in that hospital, so I don't want to go there. So there was that shame, and that was one of the things we're trying to do in terms of closing that gap between noticing the symptoms and actually taking the first step to seek help. Um, and even a few, I think a few weeks ago now, I came across this kit on Instagram where a mom was interrogating uh her daughter's boyfriend or someone she had brought home or someone she was dating. And the mom said was asking the guy, does anyone in your family have cancer? And that struck me. I mean, people just laughed, you know, in terms of comments. I went through the comments and no one actually picked on it, but you and I thought, so this is something that's sort of literally seen as this is at some of the questions you have to ask people. So that's one of the reasons people don't want to seek help or let people know what they're going through, because there's that shame, there's that stigma to the family, and then some there's also fear, there's a lot of fear, and and that that is really in terms of fear and other things, that's actually universal, um, um irrespective of where people live or where they're from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Okay. So copper rights was born to address the breast health awareness gap. Yes. What um reality did you encounter in this in the communities that confirmed that this work was urgently needed?

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Oh, so yeah, so we we spoke to a lot. We I remember when we started out with we're on lockdown, um, so we I spoke to people, we're speaking to women, we ended up we spoke to people who had relatives who had passed away due to breast cancer or some other form of cancer. Um, then apart from just speaking to people, one of the things that came up where we're speaking to people was, no, I don't even, apart from the lump, I don't know what else to check for. And then everyone hears of the breast lump, but there are there are 11, about 11 other breast cancer symptoms. And so some people didn't know to check for them. Some people talked about how they had been dismissed by doctors. So sometimes even doctors at primary level need to be more aware of. Um, particularly in um low and middle income countries, even here in the UK, you know, need to be more aware of what these symptoms are, and also understand that because here, for instance, in developed settings like UK, you let me speak specifically for the UK, cancer screening, um breast cancer screening usually from 50 to 70, that's about the age when we get invited for breast cancer. However, in minor ethnic women, you see breast cancer, you see a lot of special where you have breast cancer um patients in their 30s and 40s. So there's it there was that need for the awareness. There was, you know, we read things and then we did a survey for people living in Nigeria because our initial target audience, our first target audience was Nigeria. We've broadened that, we've done a pivot now, we've broadened that, and we're even we're even um coming into the UK now. But when we started out, uh we're just focused on Nigeria initially. So we did a survey, we did that online, and noted most of the patients had never so they've heard of breast cancer, they've done some of them had even marched on the campaigns, but they couldn't tell you what the breast cancer symptoms were. Um, most of them just needed long. Most of them had never gone, most of the women had never gone for screening, they didn't know to do a monthly breast self-exam in terms of checking their breasts. And we we then had started encouraging women to say, you know, just imagine it's think of it like you know when you your body temperature is normal, you know when you have a fever. The same way you also know when your blood pressure is high, although at least based on the readings. Yeah. So don't the purpose of checking is not, oh, I'm checking looking for a symptom, just become familiar with what your breasts look and feel like normally. So that if there's a change, doesn't mean you have cancer, but if you notice a change, then you can seek help. So that's um, so those were the things that came out uh of the and then some people were not were too scared to check. I spoke to some nurses who, even here in the UK, who were like, it just feels uncomfortable to touch, to check my breast or to you know to feel for, and I said, Me too. I feel it felt uncomfortable for me too. But it's something with time, you know, you get used to. That's part of the behavior part, yeah. So um behavior change.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So yeah, so on the on the platform, it's also kind of um educational, is it literacy for people to learn how to do the checks?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Or yeah, so there's video on the platform that shows women how to check. We've translated it into other languages. We're still going to translate into. We started with Nigerian, the main Nigerian languages. Um, we're still going to translate into more languages, and then there's also guide their visual guides of what to check for. We're also conscious of when you go online. I mean, now it they're more skin tones. When we started out, there were only mostly skin tones, you know, for Caucasians. So we had to we're conscious to do, you know, skin ensure that our images were more sort of towards the dark brown, uh, that or brown skin tones for um breasts.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

So with yeah, so with the um with the apps you've got, I know there's one called Makono. Is it Makono or Makono?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Umkono. Umkono.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So what what does that mean and what is that app about?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Oh, so um cono in oh okay, so umkonno is a digital platform which was created under the second company I lead, um, which is Anexis Health. Um, so Annexis was born interestingly, from as I the need for Nexis. Let me put this way the need for Nexus came about when I was engaging with a lot of the oncologists, researchers, and um nurses, in fact, all the various health professionals working in cancer. So I recall in it was in 2023 when we first launched MAMI, that's the MAMI app. I was speaking with oncologists on how you know we're trying to get women to get to report early, present early, then if they had breast cancer symptoms so they could be examined. And a lot of doctors, whether it was those working in breast or pediatrics, or so whether they were adult cancers or pediatric, they were all complaining on different cancer sites, they were all complaining about the same thing. Like, oh mercy, oh that's all yes, it's great. We want the patients to present early, and we want the patients to get diagnosed early. But a phrase they kept using was my pain point. Something I as in my pain, my oh, I wish this you can. I need the patients. Rather, I we need we lose the patients after they've come the first time. We can't reach them, we don't know how where they've gone, we don't have a way to of tracking them. And sometimes we send them out to do um like diagnostic text to the lab in the hospital, they go somewhere else, I have no, then they bring some tests back. I have no way, they have no way of engaging with the radiologists, you know, in the other in the center they've gone. Sometimes they start treatments, they don't complete their treatment, and really sticking to the regimen um for treatment in cancer is really crucial, particularly for some cancer types. You really have to stick to not just the doses, but to the regimen, you know, to in terms of the timing and all that, and and to stick you know, ensuring they stick to the appointment, and even more importantly, that they actually complete so even when appointments I mean, yeah, actually complete treatment. And a lot of patients, substantial number of patients know we're not completing treatments for different, you know, really valid reasons. Sometimes it's cause, sometimes it's fear, sometimes is um well, by fear I mean, by the time they've gone home, and then people know they are experiencing treatment going through treatment, and they tell don't go through, don't don't um don't go back to that hospital. So something so happened to this person or that person, you know, tell them stories, they get scared, they don't come back, or they start experiencing side effects, which is really common, and they experience something maybe severe, maybe mild, whatever this state, and that discourages them sometimes from come going logistics distance. So there's several a myriad of no really complex problems. And as they kept talking all this, the one request that kept coming through, even after the conference via email, was can you extend the back end of mommy? As in beyond just people, you know, beyond the breast self-exam. Can you figure out a way to help us track the patients from the community to the hospital back to the community? And I remember when researchers specifically used the word 360, just create that 360 degree thing. Just we want to be able to track, we want to know where the patient is, we want to have the full picture of the patient from beginning to end and even after treatment. And and because again, a lot of people, there are not very many cancer centers in Africa. A lot of people have traveled very long distances, so they wanted to be able to communicate with them wherever they were. And um the short version of the story is I then started brainstorming with a colleague. Um, and we started thinking of you know, how do we go about solving this problem? And then with time, they I got they invited me over to Malawi to get a to understand the problem. So got to engage with the healthcare workers, the community healthcare workers, the health professionals in hospital, and as well as the um some of the patients through focus groups, which I just shadowed, and I got them to explain the problem and what a solution would look like. And based on what they said the solution would look like, we built um kono. And umkono means in it, um means arm in chichew, which is commonly spoken language in Malawi. It also means helping a hand in helping hand in Swahili. So essentially give holding the patient's hand, giving that arm of support through the entire cancer journey. So we named it umkono. And so it's the digital platform that ensures that um patients are, it educates community health workers on identifying patients with cancer symptoms, monitors their tracking so we can track the patients in real time, um, sends them SMS reminders for their symptoms, and then even when they're experiencing side effects, they can report their side effects to the doctors, no matter where they live. And we've launched in Malawi.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, amazing. So this is also for children, um, male, female, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Everyone, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

That's that's amazing. And how was that received over there?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, so they we co-designed it with them, so they already took ownership right from the ground up. So we co-designed it with them. Um, I put I pulled together another new team to work on this, and then yeah, then we we co-designed with them. I kept going back to you know, Malawi. We have been to Malawi several times now. My husband calls him a third country, and I thought to Malawi. I really enjoy being there, and then learning, getting their feedback at literally every item on you know, on the software to asking how they wanted what they wanted to do. So it's so by the time we launched it, it was something they were already embracing, and it's still telling us, and there's always it's always an iterative process of um building anything, and a lot of the lessons I learned from mommy I could put into developing um cono.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Amazing. So um, you've actually received a lot of um major awards for innovation and entrepreneurship. Um, what do these milestones mean to you beyond recognition?

SPEAKER_00 32:27

So beyond the claps and the and the excited moments, they actually place me in a deep state of deep reflection. Um testament to the work that has been done in a certain way um encouraging at the same time they often this is for me though, they really make me really sit down quietly with myself and ask myself why am I doing this again, and what next? Um, yeah, so it's it's it they often tend to put me at a junction in a sense, so it's always like, oh, recollecting, reflecting on what has been done, and then where am I now, and then where am I going to? I'm like, okay, yes, this has been won, this is great, or then I put it behind me and just keep moving forward. Yeah, so it helps me reflect on it's um I try not to focus on them too much because I think I only remember them when I'm reading my bio. Then I'm like, oh yeah. But it also then tells reminds me of um the fact that people have supported me to this point, and reminds me of why I started it in the first place, and I have to get to that destination because it's still ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Okay. And um you know, looking ahead, what would success in cancer care for underdeserved population look like in the next five to ten years? What do you think it would look like? Do you think it would have been it would have progressed for the better?

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Oh, yes, definitely. That there's so much work has been done, so there's so much improvement, but there's still so much more to be done. My dream for cancer care in underserved populations. If I was to say it in one word, I would say it's access. So access and not just access timely access, um timely access to robust care, timely access to finances, particularly in countries where they have to be out of pocket still. We hope in 10 years universal health coverage will be much more widely available. But at least between now and say five years, I hope that you know people are able to access the funds they need in terms of so that along the entire cancer continuum, but from the research angle of things, I hope that you know there's that advances even more. A lot of advancement has been made, you see. But when we look at under served populations in particular, being able to access those drugs, those medications on time is critical. So, for example, I'll give you context in a place in a country like Malawi, where the government essentially pays for cancer care or covers cancer care, and you still have the high mortality, high death rates from cancer because of late diagnosis, that's very saddening. And um those are the when I think of that, when I have to do spend late nights doing things or working, it really strengthens me to go forward because we I can't sit on my hand, ensuring that that child is able to get to the clinic on time, um, essentially stop needless debts. So, you know, yeah, so access to care and that they're able to actually complete treatment. So it's not just starting, but complete treatment and access to other support because it's not just the medicine, there's always so much support needed apart from finances. Um, the there's also psychosocial support that that's required. Um, because life beyond cancer is still needs a lot of support. We people think once they've completed treatment, but they they experience so many other things that you know they need support and help for even medically. So yeah, being able to access for people to be able to access that comfortably in those settings for me, it's oh my god, I don't know how how I'll feel when it becomes the norm. That would that would be amazing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

So, what would you say um your lessons, the lessons you've learned throughout all this process?

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

And also, and also how have you jugged juggled everything also being a mom, being like a scientist and being a mom and doing all these things.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Okay, I'll I'll take the first question. I'll take the first and the first question in terms of how um what have I learned? I've I've learned many things, and I've I've learned from the things that have worked and the things that haven't worked, I've learned from the things that have I failed at and from the things that you know I excelled at at the same time. And um it's often important. I'll I'll speak first on the things that worked or excelled at. It's important to us to because sometimes some things happen and everything works out great, and you know, you get this award, or you get something, or something you know, pans out. It's important sometimes you get so happy in those moments and don't actually take time to take note of the things that led that led to that, so that we can replicate it or you know, uh work on it to improve it in for the future. So it's important to do that, or even more importantly, from the things that didn't work out that I feel that some of the mistakes I made, I'll mention about two uh about three or two or three and that first come to mind. So one of the things I've learned was learning to I found out I I was too slow in taking decisions, and then I had to learn that they're what they call um the one-door and two-door decisions. So one-door decisions are things that I had to I should spend more time on because you can once you take them, it's hard to reverse them. So, for instance, maybe the structure of the business, the legal structure of the business. Um, so those kind of decisions you want to take time to before you know making those decisions. Um, then the but I found I've spent a lot of time on two-door decisions, so things you can easily change. So maybe like a logo, don't waste time on those kind of things. That is that isn't even the brand, that is just a symbol, a symbol of maybe what the brand encompasses, but they're not it's not the things to so asking myself over with time, is this a one-door decision, is it a two-dot decision? And then just taking decisions as quickly, you know, as as if as efficiently um as possible. And then something else I learned was not to be afraid to take the first step and not to be afraid to make mistakes. You just you learn on the way, it gets better, it gets better, it improves. Sometimes we want the whole picture, we want it to look picture perfect. For for mommy, mommy, this is we've we updated the design of mommy. I think it was last year, or no, in 20. We started that in 2024. It was nothing like what it started, what we started with by the time we launched the new, we updated it fully early last year. It was nothing like how we started in 2023. I mean, when I look at that, it looks like oh my god, this is how we started, but it improves, but so but you just have to start. The same thing with umkono. I remember how we started. I was going through list of expenses and things we had done, and I'm wondering, I was wondering, oh my god, we use this platform. How could we think that it could work on this on the first platform we try to build it on? Like we really quickly realized, I think after about three weeks, that it wasn't the right platform, and then we moved to another one. But then if we didn't start, we didn't have known that. And then engaging with the community health workers, they gave us you know feedback. Oh, we don't want to click on it, we want to tick boxes, we don't want this, we don't want to swipe left, we want to click, you know, it really it may seem salient to you, but it's crucial to the user. Um, so just starting and not being afraid, yeah. And made in terms of even hiring, hiring people, whether contractors or team members or even recruitment volunteers, and then yeah, look, I I we had to learn to, you know, what's the phrase I use now, hire slow, fire fast. Um, but yeah, understanding the right fit. So those are things so I learned from my mistakes I've made as well. And I know that I may still make I will still make some, you know, in the future, but the cautious thing is to learn from them, and then of course not to not to be afraid in taking steps and taking decisions and action.

unknown 42:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

And what three values do you live by?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Excellent. Kindness amazing, and we haven't answered your second question though. Oh, with the kids, yeah, with the kids, yeah. I was scared to start. Um, even my Nintendo, like throwing myself when I realized it needed more of my time and more of my effort, and moving from being a freelance, because then I was doing in it was working, I started doing freelance stats statistics work for people, even pro bono sometimes. Um, and then moving that into mommy, and then again, you know, to a Nexis, and as Mammy became more, you know, was non-profit, and Nexis was the main company I work on now. It's uh yeah, at the very beginning, I think it was in 2021 as the world was opening up gradually. I I remember being scared to start um or with family support, um and then just being realistic with myself with what I could do. There's this phrase I'm I'm going to sort of uh address this a bit if that's okay. When people talk about you know you can have it all, you can have it all, and a lot of times we think about um that people some people say, Oh, you can have it all, and then there's the other factor factor of oh, you you you can have it all, but not at the same time, you it because you life is in seasons, and as a woman, you know, things are in seasons. And I do believe that things are in, you know, you can have it all, but you have it all in different seasons in certain ways. But I'll give that more context in terms of a lot of times if the conversation is focused on the having, but in my opinion, why there seems to be controversy when people have that conversation is actually, I believe, because we all think that what we define as our all is the same thing. What is all to me may not be all to someone else. So, for instance, when someone says, Oh, you can have it all, and I have a nanny, and the other person has a nanny who maybe picks up the children and they're able to go to work or do the different things at the same, and for someone else, the and that is fine as long as they're able to juggle everything, you know, get home, prepare the meals, but for someone else, all maybe they want to pick up their kids themselves. Yes, so we're not actually talking about the same all in that sense. So it's actually fine asking yourself, what does all mean to me? How much of it am I willing? Because there will always be trade-offs. I have to travel for a conference, I have to travel to Malaya, I have to travel for a meeting. I can't attend, I may not be able to attend certain events or but the question is which events am I willing to not be able to attend? Which days am I willing to not be able to do the school drop-off and the school pickup? So it's what is all what does all mean to you as an individual is what I often ask, you know, and what are you willing, what trade-offs can you make or can you are you not willing to make? And then you have to make peace with yourself, whatever decision you come to and what you're comfortable with, and then just go with that.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Excellent. Now I think that's a that's an excellent answer, actually, because it means different things to different people. You can compare yourself um to what other people are doing, and that's where the mistake comes. Because we want to do it exactly how Jane next door does it, you know. It looks it looks like she, you know, everything is so easy to her, and um, you know, but it's not always the case, like you said, some people might have more support than others, yeah. So yeah. So, as someone like yourself on a mission to improve access to cancer care, what legacy do you hope your work will leave? And how can listeners support or get involved?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Oh yeah, you know, oftentimes when I hear the word legacy, I start I I I pause because it's I'm like, oh yeah, I'm so young. But I I I see I I remember when um when my mom I'm I'm just going to say the story, when when my mom passed away, um I looked around and I realized the greatest thing she actually left was the people she had touched in one way or the other, the people she had helped, and us and her children whom she had raised there, four of us. Um yeah, so I'm the oldest of I have three siblings, or four, I'm the oldest of four. And I you know now in the age of their coaches, their mentors, I realized she had been my lifelong coach and mentor. I still hear her voice in my head for a long time. So, in terms of legacy, I I believe that would be the people have that through the words my friendship, my work, um that my heart you know have touched in some way, shape, or form, directly or indirectly. At the end of the day, I believe that's what my legacy would be. And yeah. And it will hard, it's it's really hard to even do what one's legacy will truly really really be but if I was going, if I if I had to describe it, like that's what you know, that I made my actions, my acts, my thoughts, or the things I did, or you know, lived by made an impact in someone's life. That's I mean that's that'll be everything.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Thank you so so much for this conversation. Um, I will leave your details and where the audience can actually find you on Instagram, LinkedIn, etc. Thank you so much again for this conversation. Thank you, Faith. Thank you so much for having me. It was really lovely chatting with you. We I really enjoyed it. Oh, you're more than welcome.