Episode 8 - Matt Lange

Retired MGySgt Matt "Precious" Lange and I talk about a long and rewarding 22-year career. Being all over the world from deployments to Duty Station. Holding billets from Crew Chief, School House Instructor, Branch Chief, Marine Air Traffic Mobile Team Instructor, MAWTS-1 ATC and C3 Chief, MCIPAC ATC and Airspace Regional Chief. Matt's career is a Marine Air Traffic Controllers wet dream, all Leading to the final and most challenging thing of Retiring and getting out. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

So I'm with the one and only retired Master Gunnery Sergeant, Matthew Precious, or is it the Precious Lang?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hey man, just precious is fine.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Twenty-two years retired from the Marine Corps. I think you've pretty much been East Coast, West Coast, and overseas Japan and everything. Did you spend any time in Hawaii?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

No, just uh on vacation and NATOPS inspections. That's it. I never I was never stationed there at all.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Okay. Um and so like me, fellow Midwesterner, you're originally from Missouri. And being from Missouri, what led you to end up joining the Marine Corps and starting down that?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Yeah, so uh as I was growing up, like any, like most of the Marines, or at least most of us that you know I associated with in the Marine Corps, I was an absolute piece of shit, young man. You know, uh it all stemmed back for in high school, I was I was pretty good, kept my grades up, you know. My dad was really strict. Uh I played baseball and that was my thing. So it was like if I kept my grades up, I could play ball. So that was my motivation, right? I had that behind me. Well, then I get a scholarship, go to college, went to uh Missouri Valley College, really small, you know, nothing like that you see LSU or any of these guys hitting bombs on in the D1 stage. You know, it was an NAIA school uh right in Marshall, Missouri, so right down the street from where I grew up. Uh I go there and I left a high school where I graduated 44 people. You know, I was one of the best baseball players in that school of barely anybody. In my head, in my head, I think I'm gonna be the best when I go up to Missouri Valley. I get up there and I see these guys, and they are all, you know, really solid athletes. They're already pretty seasoned in the in the college space, and I'm just like, oh, wait a minute, now everybody's just as good as me. I also didn't have the drive behind, you know, having my parents or having uh, you know, the grades thing wasn't that big of a deal in my college, you know. Uh so it was like I didn't have the drive to keep my grades up and stuff, so I stopped going to class as much. I didn't focus on baseball like I should. I wanted to party like a young man always does, you know. So I I ended up getting into a whole bunch of mischief. I decided that I wasn't gonna put in the work that I was putting in in high school to become as good as I was at baseball. And then the final straw, you know, I'm taking I'm taking batting practice, uh, got a lefty up there throwing, throwing gas, you know, he's trying to make the team, I'm trying to make the team. He threw a little cut fastball up and in, and my reflexes aren't, you know, weren't as good as they are today, you know. And I and I got smoked in the face and and it hit me right under the eye, busted me up. And uh after that, you know, I was just like, I healed up after a month, went back in there to take batting practice, won right down the pipe, 80 miles an hour to just tee off on, and I turned my head. And the second I did that, I I went, told the coach I was done. But while all this is going on, you know, the Twin Towers get hit. Uh and I watched that in my political science class in in college, uh, and I knew that I knew that we were going to go to war, some some fashion of war.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

And I, you know, I I look at my father and I was like, hey, you know, this is something that I want to participate in. You participated in Vietnam. I want to do my part. Um, but I didn't really realize at the time like how big the Afghanistan thing was gonna be. Yeah. You know, because first we started special operations, you know, dumping people into Afghanistan, start doing the the cool thing, right? And then the Iraq thing kicked off. And I knew I was like, now we got a multi-front war, they need everybody that they possibly can. It's my turn to step up to the plate. So I joined under an aviation operations contract. That's pretty much how it how it went down. Uh, and I needed to fix my life too, because I was going down a path of where most likely I probably would have been arrested eventually.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Uh so for that that the AJ was it AJ contract at that time for you uh when you when you signed, you remember?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Because like I I'm not really I I'm trying to remember. It was uh I want to say it was, um, but it was under the aviation uh operations construct where there was like machine gunners on Helos, there was all you know, mechanics, all sorts of things. And I wanted to be a door gunner on a Hilo. You know, that was my thing. It's like let's because it is that gonna happen a lot. Well, in Iraq, in the in the beginning it did, you know, but it was mostly for protection. I wanted to do that. I thought that was super cool. So I told my dad, I'm like, I want to be in aviation. He said, okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

So did what did you did you understand the contract you were getting when the recruiter passed it over to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

So I understood, I understood the Marine Corps in its entirety. You know, my dad is a retired first sergeant, you know, he spent a lot of time, he he deployed to Vietnam in uh 1970. And then also he, you know, as a first sergeant, he had been in Korea, he had been a part of an artillery uh battery, he had been a part of the Hawk missile system, you know, he was a radar maintainer on the Hawk missile system. So, you know, he had a lot of experience of that, so I I knew everything that I was getting into. But as far as the contract was concerned, I thought I was locked in to what I wanted. I want to be a door gunner, my dad's a marine, he's gonna hook me up, it's fine, right? Yeah, so I could say that with full confidence I knew that I was gonna get torched in the Marine Corps and it was the best of the best, but I did not know exactly what I was getting into.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah. Um, and so you went Hollywood boot camp.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yep, San Diego, baby, born and raised.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

What was uh was boot camp a big shock for you? Was it that was there like a uh a come to Jesus moment that you that you ever had, or do you feel like you're a little bit more prepared than some people actually admit they were for?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

I was I was ready to go, you know. I was ready to do it. I I wanted to see how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

How old were you at the time? How old were you at the time when you went to school?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So I was uh 20 years old whenever I joined the military.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

So a year and a half of college, then I left and a little bit, a little bit more life experience than guys just rolling out of high school and and diving.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

It wasn't something that I was like, oh, I'm mature. But no, nothing really surprised me in boot camp. I kind of knew that that was gonna happen, and and my dad had raised me. You know, my dad was a hard ass, so it was like he treated me um growing up in the manner of which your Marines are gonna treat you, you know. He held me accountable, he did the thing. So when they're yelling at me, I'm just kind of looking at it and I'm like, like this just another day to me, man. Let's let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Um, cool. And so what what point like from boot camp to A school did you find out you're gonna be air traffic control?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

So I found out an MCT. I don't know if that's uh the same kind of thing for a lot of people, but I take the ASVAB. I I I don't even remember what I scored on it, you know. I just take the test. And, you know, when we're doing final drill in uh in boot camp, I remember, you know, uh guy stands in front of me, you know, battalion commander inspection, and then you know, have have the CEOs stand in front of me and hey, what's your MOS? 0311. You know, that's all I've been saying for the last like three months, so that's all I said. I didn't even I had no idea what my MOS was, and I got I got smoked for that out in the pit because they're like, you don't even know what you're gonna do. I was like, no, I still don't know the number. Like it doesn't matter how much you torture me right now. I don't know. So you just you kind of pulled the kids today. You could be like, I'm a 6'76 or whatever. Whatever. I have no clue. Um, I go to MCT and we're in receiving and everything. At first they put me in SOI because it's like I don't I don't know if it was a thing where nobody really knew where I was supposed to be placed. So I go there and I and they send me over to the SOI line. I said, I don't think I need to be here. I'm supposed to be in aviation. So they figured that out after about you know a day or so because uh receiving was taking a little bit. So I go over to MCT, uh MCT line, start to check in, and and they look at me and they say, Oh, so you're an air traffic controller. I said, Yeah, maybe I don't know. You know, and at this point, again, 20 years old, I think I have life experience, but I have no idea what that is. I think it's the guys with the sticks, like everybody does. I'm like, holy shit, dude. I'm gonna end up uh on the line, like literally pointing at planes where to go, even though they'd go there regardless. Exactly. Get my sticks up, learn my learn my gang signs that they throw with those things. And and then do that. So, but like a like any Marine that's still scared to death about everything that they're embarking on. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'm I'm an air traffic controller. That's what I'm gonna do. And that's how that came about. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

So it was pretty cool. Um yeah, my I I think they try to be a little bit better about that when I went through booth. They uh right before the crucible, they were like, hey, like you should have your MOS code by now, get with like aviations over here, ground support, like uh, you know, and then infantry, and they try to get all these guys together. And it was like me and one other guy that were supposed to be supposed air traffic controllers, and like we had an an aviation ordnance guy. Um, I think we had uh either like a halo or eight or an aviate uh mechanic. And the two of us, which the other guy, I just remember him because he's just like this really like long string bean of a dude, like super, super tall, like not super like big human being, just kind of like that awkward gangly walking person. He's like, he was like, uh we're we're traffic control. Uh what do you know about us? And the aviation ordinance dude just like straight, like not missing to me. He was like, uh, you guys kill yourself a lot. Good luck. And like that was it. Um and then we both ended up going to MCT at the same time. He actually ended up going somewhere else because his contract didn't change because he was open. Yeah, and I yeah, and then I went to Pensacola, Florida. So um, what was A school like for you? Was it was it Pensacola or was it still Millington at the time?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah, it was Pensacola. It had already transferred to Millington. So I got there uh around. Well, I got there in 2004, like early 2004. Um, and I show up and I'm thinking at this point, I'm a Marine, you know, I'm now I can, you know, I'm past all the boot camp stuff. That wasn't the way that that that went down. Like the schoolhouse, I showed up, and you know, I got guys like uh at the time it was Staff Sergeant Collier was like one of the main guys there. He ran PT, always showed up in boots and uts, he'd yell at us. They all the instructors absolutely shit on us. Inside of the you know, barracks. Uh, you know, I forget which building I stayed in, but inside of the barracks, we weren't in the echo barracks yet. We were still in the main uh the main barracks that the Navy was in. So um, so we were in there and I got these other Lance Corporals like telling me what to do. And I'm I'm a PFC at the time. Got Lance corporals there from A and I strand. God knows that they probably been rocked back like 12 times. I didn't even know that. Um, they're like telling me to clean. I'm like, who the fuck are you? Like, you know, like this ain't boot camp. You can't treat me like that. And so it was a it was a rude awakening whenever I got there. But as far as the schoolhouse is concerned, I mean the training was great, PT was good, I got in great shape. But at the end of the day, like the knowledge that was coming out of there was very impressive, and I couldn't, you know, I I was very, very proud to be there uh and and learn that skill because I'm finally learning what an air traffic controller does. I'm like, holy shit, I might actually be important at some point, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah. Um was there anything big like you struggled with going through a school or like like schoolhouse-wise, or was there uh I mean, was there a preference for you? Because I feel like everyone kind of has a preference leaving a school, whether it's gonna be radar or tower.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah, I mean, I I really enjoyed the radar portion only because I I I was a video gamer like a whole bunch of air traffic controllers are. Um I like to play Call of Duty, I like to do all those things. So that the radar intrigued me. I really understood it. I uh, you know, the tower was was fun, but it didn't give you the whole experience because there's something that simulator just can't do, right? Like I feel like I'm looking at a video game when I know that's not accurate, but when I look at the radar and you're looking at those screens, your brain is correlating it. It is an essential video game because that is the exact display that you're gonna see whenever you go. Um I struggled with the amount of knowledge in the short amount of time and the studying required to do well because I was so deathly terrified of getting a bad score that I would stay up till 2-3 in the morning every night, you know, studying and wake up at five to go PT and then get school at 7:30 and and you know, do that. So I struggled with that a little bit. I was very tired.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

After Pensacola like walk through the career of duty stations and assignments and then qualifications that you're able to earn at each place.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Sure. So uh, yep, after I graduated, uh, you know, I'd give my top three whenever we get to block four, the Matt Cow stuff, and give my top three. And I'm like, I want to go to Miramar, like everybody does. I want to go to Miramar, I want to go to um Camp Pendleton, and then I want to go to Yuma because I was actually born in Yuma, so that was my third pick. I always wanted to be back there. When we get to that part, it'll be a good time. So, you know, they came down and they told me they're like, Congratulations. You want to go to the West Coast? You're going to the West Coast. I said, Sweet, which one? Camp Pendleton and Miramar. They said, You're gonna go so far west, you're gonna hit Japan. And and I started laughing, right? And I'm like, Well, you know, I thought that was far east coast. They're like, Well, you know the earth is round, right? So you can get there either direction. Like, okay. So I get Japan and I'm I'm absolutely freaked out because I have never left the country at this point. Yeah. I've been to other states, but I had never left the country. I was terrified, I'm on my own, I don't have anybody to assist me in this. I got no information. I just have a plane ticket and a date and time orders that I gotta be there. So right off the bat, I have to decipher these orders and try to figure out how to be an adult. In another country, mind you, that I don't speak the language of, because I don't know if you know this. And in Missouri, we don't really practice anything other than Spanish.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Um I feel like it's not really that hard.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

You know. So I go to Okinawa, uh, I get orders to MCS for tema. I go to Okinawa, uh, I fly out there, and my plane arrives at night, and uh, I have no idea where I'm going, what to do. I'm at the airport in Naha, uh, and I'm just like, okay, what is happening here? And there's just a random Marine. I I remember this like it was yesterday. I walked out there, I grabbed my bags, and I'm just standing there like a complete idiot. I see a whole bunch of other people that are in the military, but I'm too afraid to ask them because I'm so new. So I just see this Marine in camis and a duty belt, and he's got his cover on. He's there with a duty van to pick people up. Um I'm like, how does he know you know how many people he's picking up? And I go up to him, I said, Hey, are you here to pick me up? They're like, he's like, Yeah, I got you and like three other people. So we all get in this van and he takes us to Camp Foster, which is down the street from Fatema. And I tell him, I said, I'm not supposed to be here, I'm supposed to be at Fatema. And I gotta check in by tomorrow. They go, Oh no, you come to Fed uh Camp Foster first in receiving. I just listen to him, have no clue, right? Yeah. I go there, I go into this barracks room, it's it's barren wasteland, they got us linen and stuff, and I sit there for a week and literally do nothing. I clean every day, nobody's come to check on me. I'm like, at this point, I'm like, I gotta make a decision. I grabbed all my stuff, checked out of the barracks, and took a cab over to Fatema. I get I get to Fatema and I go into the facility with my stuff, and keep in mind, like I stopped just long enough to shave and throw on camis. My camis look like shit. I go in there and they look at me, they're like, Who are you? I was like, Well, I'm private first class lay. You know, I'm supposed to be a Lance Corporal here soon, and and I go through the whole feel of being completely scared. And they're like, You're supposed to be here last week, you're UA. You want to get charged for that? They're like reading me my rights and shit. Right off the bat, and and I meet my first, you know, one of one of the mentors I had, um, uh first two guys, uh, a couple mentors that I had, um, Mike Whitner, he's a retired master sergeant. Uh, he lives down in South Carolina. And then Aaron Kozick, you know, at the time he's a sergeant, he ended up getting out as a gunny uh and then pursued some other things. But these two ended up taking me under their wing and started to teach me. They were just messing with me that I was supposed to get charged, got me set up, and uh right off the bat I said, hey, well, this is Fatema, you know. Am I gonna start training in the tower? They said, No, you're going to the Air Force Base in Kadena. I I was like, Why would I go there? It doesn't make any sense. They said, Well, we don't have any training slots for you. There's not enough traffic to really pump people through the tower at the time. You're gonna go work with Kazakh over at Kadena and train on and you know, eventually approach and arrival that they had over there. At the time, Kadena was about the fourth busiest Air Force Base in the world. So, I mean, they F-15s, um, you name it, they were they had it. They were doing uh all sorts of heavy, heavy lifting ops for Pacific operations. Yeah. Um so I get there and I start uh I start training, and I train on uh clearance delivery, flight data, and PAR. The only reason the Marines were there was to do the uh the PARs because the Air Force didn't have a requirement to, but they still had the system, so pilots still had to maintain currency on it. Now I gotcha. Um so I get qualified on on those two positions pretty easily. Um CDFD was probably the most difficult because of the language barrier. You know, reading a clearance or you know, understanding routes and timing, that was pretty easy for me, but it was the different fixes like chinin, tinan, and kinen. And then some Japanese guy is going to be like, I'm a Kinan, I have no idea what you're talking about, good sir. Um so that was probably that's probably what took me the longest is getting that language barrier through. Uh I get those two qualifications and they decide, hey, I'm good enough to train on arrival. Uh, and arrival was super busy, so I get on arrival and I'm training with another Marine there. Uh, not gonna say his name because I don't want to throw his business out there, but um uh I start training with him. Well, he has uh an incident, not you know, not um mid-air or anything, but he has like a near miss. Yeah, did a lot of things wrong during his training. The the trainer didn't catch it at the right time. So there's a whole bunch of levels to this thing that kind of fell apart. Um and in that the Air Force, right after that, they stopped all of the Marines training on major positions over there because they were like, well, if this is gonna happen, we didn't we don't want to put ourselves in this position at interservice stuff, uh, because our rules were different than theirs. We had the NATOPs, they had the AFIs. So it was like they cut that LOA. So I just ended up sitting there doing clearance delivery and flight data. They wouldn't let me go up to the tower because uh they wouldn't let Marines cross-strain at the time. So I'm sitting there just rotting, man, and I'm doing 500-knot PARs, you know, with these F-15s that don't want to do it. They're flying the ILS, but they're on the PAR, they're coming down straight down the pike, 500 knots because they're late and they got to land. So you're just like, you know, prepared to descend to one mile, clear to land, and you know, that's all you got. So after about a year and a half of that, they bring me back to Fatema, but they're Not enough time for me to train. So I'm about to leave after two years, and I only have clearance delivery flight data, no experience on any majors, and I just feel defeated. You know, I feel like I hadn't done enough. Um, so I get orders to Bufort, South Carolina, to the uh the detachment, you know, now known as the company, uh, detachment alpha, get orders down there, I head down to Bufort, and a buddy of mine from Okinawa is actually there, so he kind of helped me with the receiving process. Um and as we go along, you know, checking into places gets easier and easier. So I check in there, I go over to Max, I'm like, yeah, I'm ready to deploy. I got I got finals and data. Come on, baby. Um, and they look at me, they're like, No, you're gonna go over to the station and you're gonna train. So at this point, I'm starting to second guess my decision to be an air traffic controller. Yeah, like I'm not doing what I wanted to do. I want to go to combat. I went overseas and did my thing. I want to go over to Iraq or Afghanistan, do my thing. I go over to Bufort and I struggle over there a little bit because I'm kind of in my feels a little for the thing, as it naturally a lot of people do. They don't like to admit it, but uh, you know, I'm I'm a type of guy, I'll tell you the exact truth, even when I feel a little uncomfortable. At that time, I felt super uncomfortable, uh, but ended up getting finals back, ended up getting data back, started training a little bit on arrival, uh uh kind of the approach arrival scheme that they had there. Um and it was it it was getting close to where I was I was getting there, and I was understanding the Charleston Savannah kind of you know difficulty. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the company calls me back. They're like, hey, you're gonna get deployed. I'm like, wait a minute, what are you gonna do? How am I getting how do I get deployed with nothing? You know, I still have nothing. I'm like, I have to get a major qual, you know, pretty soon. I'm I'm on my three-year waiver already, you know. I need to get this major qual. And I get a call from uh uh from Kazakh, he's actually at Bufert, and he's like, hey, you're gonna come to uh Iraq and you're gonna go on the MMT to uh Ramadi Iraq. I said, cool, man, what's an MMT, dog? You know, still don't know. I have no clue. I'm just I'm blissfully ignorant, brother.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

So before like you had gone like to Bufort and everything, when you had gone from station Japan to company detachment in Bufort, had you had any background between the two or the understanding of what the detachment does, or was it just like, oh hey, you got orders to to Max 1 dead A, like yeah, be there this time.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

It was simply another unit to me because the Max 4 guys, I never saw them in Okinawa because they would come over for a few weeks and then they leave again because they're doing you know, tropic thunder everywhere, and you know, that they're always in Cobra Gold, they're always in Korea, they're always doing the Philippine stuff. Like it. I never saw them, so I was like, man, what do these guys do? Like that must be fun. They're on the you know, 31st Mew. So I have no clue. We never trained with them at all either. Like we were working out of the expeditionary gear because our tower was getting refurbished, but that's about all I knew of. I was like, oh, the expeditionary guys just bring equipment over for us to use it. Cool. Yeah, you know, okay. So now I get to Max 2 and they give me a brief on what they do, and I'm like, oh man, I got a lot of stuff to learn. On top of the fact that I have to get qualifications. Um so when Kazakh calls me and says, Hey, you're gonna go to Ramadi on an MMT, I ask him what the MMT is, and he's like, I'll show you when you get over here. So he runs through the classes and stuff, but it's real quick. And at the time, you know, uh Lieutenant Colonel Kylie retired, right? He is a lieutenant and he's my team leader. And this is where I get you know a lot of background from the way I am and the way the way I kind of operate, is he was a main mainstay in my career. Um he's at uh the MMTI course, and he comes back, you know, Kozak was already in MMTI, and and he comes back, and I didn't even know he was gone to Yuma. I thought he was just on leave. You know, I have no clue. Um doing officer things. No, I'm telling you, blissfully ignorant. That's what I was. And you know, so we do a couple drills, but not like what you and I are used to, or what we formed uh later on down the line as the MMT evolved through Iraq and Afghanistan, and and then whenever you got in there, you know, what Pyvern was trying to do with it, camp house, you, um, and all these things that we were trying to expand on the MMT, it was just a a team of dudes going to do dude shit in a really hostile environment. And Ramadi was pretty pretty gnarly, like it was it was pretty wild. Like after Fallujah had happened in 04, this is 2007. After Fallujah happened in 2004 and they did Phantom Fury 2 and pushed everybody out, they killed a whole bunch of insurgents, the ones that survived and the little radicals, they all moved over to Ramadi. Yeah, to kind of regroup, and there was more militia there, men there and stuff. So it started to become a hotbed of really some gnarly stuff. And again, I'm air traffic control. I think I'm just going to work in a tower, like, oh, Ramadi's got to be cool. And then I start seeing it on the news, like, you know, these people are getting shot, IEDs, car bombs, you name it, it's going off. I'm like, this is where we're going. I tell my wife, like, you know, um, I'm going to Ramadi. It's not that bad, you know, like it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

And how long have you been married at this point when you're getting ready to deploy?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Oh, a couple months.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, so I got married in uh uh November of 2006, and I deployed in uh uh we left uh late January uh because the the advon went in uh mid-January, and then I got out into theater uh February-ish, like early February. Um this is the first thing I tell her. I know that I'm deploying whenever we get married. I don't tell her that. We get married, I finally tell her I'm like, hey, I'm going to Iraq, but that the place is not that bad, you know, it's pretty calm, you know, yada yada. Yeah. I I basically describe TQ or Al-Assad to her. So so I get on this MMT, they give us all our gear. We have the basic stuff because again, we haven't evolved yet. We still we're using uh 117s and 119s to talk to, you know, and 119s to talk to the uh patches, 117s to talk to everybody else. We're learning how to do crypto, but it's basic crypto, not not the stuff that we're using today. Um, it was a lot of training, and I still don't know what an MMT does setting up a runway, doing any of that stuff. I still have no idea. We get out there, and I we land at TQ, and I'm like, okay, three days after that, we get on some helicopters flying to Ramadi. Well, on my way in, you know, uh Kylie and Kazakh are already there. Um, me and the two other controllers that were on our team are flying out there. Me and one other guy are in a separate Hilo. The other guy is uh in the in the uh back Hilo. We're flying in, and I'm sitting on the back, and next thing I know, the door gunners open up and they're just like spraying everything. I and we're moving around. I'm like, holy shit, a buddy's looking at me, he's like, Are we being shot at? I'm like, yeah, most likely. Um just getting it, right? And next thing I know, I look out the back of the 46 and I see a flash of light go between our helicopters because we're flying blacked out, RPG right between you know our flight, and I see that and I'm like, shit, shit is real, shit is real. It's time, all right. Get the med kits, putting I'm putting my magazine in, we're killing everybody. You know, it's just like you don't know what to think in in your first deployment, and I'm you know, essentially get my cherry popped like right there is like where where are you? Did did you wear your brown pants that day? Uh they were after, I'll tell you that. Uh and you know, I ain't afraid to admit that, you know, it I I was absolutely terrified at that point, so yeah. Um, but we land, and you know, me and my buddy get out, and I go over and look at uh Robinson, he's the other guy that's coming out, he was on the other Hilo, and he was like, he's like, dude, that almost made me sick. And it kind of he was he was a great controller and a shitty Marine, but he he was we needed that shittiness of him right there in order to make us relax because it's like he didn't realize that he was almost dead, like he was just he was just completely oblivious to it. And Kylie comes down and he's there to pick us up. He's got the Humvee, and we get all of our shit, and he looks at me and he's like, You guys got shot at by four RPGs, that looked pretty fun. I'm like, Yeah, you know what? How about let's just go back and go to sleep, sir? I am I am deathly tired, couldn't go to sleep at all. The first night I'm up, you know, all night. Hell yeah. But then we start doing the MMT stuff, and we have a little makeshift tower on top of a little building. We start doing ops, and I start to figure out the other units that are around. Um, you know, you have the the desk was there, so we had uh a really cool mixture of Marines and and uh soldiers there working in the desk. We kind of figured out the airspace and all these other things. We had about 12 LZs, 12 or 14 LZs. Uh, we had an OCFI pad, which was a huge area where all the special ops guys would go. So we are actually, you know, I'm doing operations like no kidding. But again, back to my training, I'm not a local controller at all. Yeah. I go there, we have two local controllers, uh, and then we're training in that tower to get an expeditionary qualification. One of the reasons why I brought it back or advocated for those expeditionary qualms later on in the TNR lifecycle, yeah, um, is because it worked out so well. I got certified as the expeditionary local controller and supervisor in that tower by the guys training me live time in combat doing the thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

So, from from your perspective, because I know you're saying like 12 to 14 LZs, so you're working on the tower. How is it like just like 12, 14 healer spots laid out in front of you?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Or oh, they were dispersed uh all over the place. We had a couple really close. Charlie Med was close, which uh uh you know, our medical pad where our roll two uh trauma facility was. Uh we had the man packs pad uh pad two, it could it could house two 47s, 46s, AH-1s did refueling there. That's where we did the ADAG and everything. And then you had places like Blue Diamond and Hurricane Point. So they were across the Euphrates River. You could barely see them, uh, but you just saw aircraft going in and out of them. Saddam's palaces were over there, that's where some of the SEALs and CIA, and then some of the night stalkers and guys that we had, special dudes, would hang out. And then LZ Stork was just this massive like area that all the special ops guys went to, and that's where they would stage to do things. We'd go out there in the morning, and there'd be nobody there. We get to the nighttime, we would be talking to Pax Pack, PAX helicopters and 46s, uh H1s, uh age 64s, not talk to a single special ops helicopter at all. You go back there the next morning, and there's fucking 25 helicopters back there. They came in blacked out, nobody said anything, had no clue they were there, and you're just like, oh my god, we go over there to meet these guys, and there's DEA, CIA, Blackwater dudes, the SEALs were there. Um, there's a you know, every now and then the Delta Force guys would come in, but you wouldn't really know, like you just knew they were there, but they'd be just in and out, right? Um, and then you had the Rangers, you know, you had some elements of the Rangers were over there. We had tanks, Bradley's, everything. And like our fob was legit. And we just put put in that work for seven months. It was the funnest, scariest deployment of my entire life. Oh, I mean, great, great experience. And at this point, you know, I'm becoming now I'm starting to get, you know, what elements are out there and what type of coordination is necessary and how important a C3 person is. Not just in an aircraft controller, but a C3 person. And Kylie's leading us through all that. And that really has got me what to re-enlist and just say, hey, I'm going, I'm going full tilt for the rest of my, you know, rest of this stint. I'm doing 20. I made the decision right there. I wasn't gonna leave. And uh, you know, that that was a big turning point for me because I was the guy that was like, I'm doing four years getting out and going to the FAA. Yeah. Screw this, man.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

I ain't getting yelled at no more. I I would fairly say it's like probably what 60, 70% of all controllers of the Marine Corps are like, screw this, I'm getting out, I'm gonna go to the promised land of the FAA.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Right. Um so coming back from that deployment and and doing all that, what did you go back to Bufert or did you end up getting orders and going somewhere else?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I went back to Bufort and I fat backed the station for like a couple of months, and then I got re-rolled back into another deployment back to uh TQ. Um, and so it was basically we got back in August of 2007, and then I went back out January of 2008 um to TQ as an arrival approach controller. Again, I trained out there to become an arrival approach controller, and we were actually issuing 53s uh out of that location. So it was legal to do. So that's where I got my first arrival qualification was out out in on deployment.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

What was what was your tempo like the difference between being in Ramadi and being at TQ?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Uh TQ was a lot more laid back, you know, that like nothing nothing happened in that deployment in in Ramadi. You know, I'm getting two hours of sleep, we're waking up to car bombs, we're getting, you know, uh rocket attacked, we're you know, we're watching high Mars rockets just smash into buildings. Like we are we are rolling hard. And I, you know, I had like again, some of the worst parts, um the some of the worst parts that you you know you could you could be in, like lack of sleep, and then possible danger of people shooting at you or whatever. Like it was happening there. You go to TQ and it was like, man, I gotta walk a mile to get to the chow hall, brother. This kind of sucks, you know. And I just got done eating MREs or asking asking my buddy Brent Heron to go down, hey man, can you get me a to-go tray? And then you get it back up and you eat it, and he's like, Hey, I put my nuts on that, by the way. And you're just like, and you just die, you know, so it's great. But uh TQ was good, uh, op tempo logistics-based, man. Like landing IL 76s, C17s, C-130s. You know, it wasn't it wasn't anything crazy. We get a helicopter or two, you know, but I worked in radar the entire time. I was down there with uh my buddy Rob Kelly, and uh I got qualified as a 53 arrival controller at TQ, which which was a perfect segue because out there I re-enlisted. Um, obviously for the tax-free bonus we were getting at Cheese at the time. What was the what was the what is the bonus like that? So I got time in uh I got$63,000 uh or$61,000,$61,000 tax-free whenever I re-enlisted. And a couple days later, a message came out that pushed my zone to 81, and I'm like, God damn it, you know, missed out on$20,000. But, you know, again, it wasn't about the money for me. It was nice to have because I was still a newly, newly married person. I'd only seen my wife for a couple months out of the first two years of our marriage. So I, you know, I was deployed the whole time. It was nice to have that money, but you know, 81,000 was on average is what people were getting at the time because we were short controllers, we were doing the surge, so we're surging a lot of troops into Iraq because the ISIS thing is starting to form. Like it's not called ISIS yet, but in Ramadi, you know, in our detainee center, we would look and we would say, There's about 10% of these dudes over here that are Iraqi. The rest of them are like from Syria, Jordan, Turkey, like they're all these little freedom fighters. And and we were we were kind of concerned with that because they want to come over there and do the old jihad or whatever, but yeah, you know, they ended up forming ISIS. That was kind of the baseline of ISIS, and then slowly it started to materialize into what we know as ISIS now. Um, but TQ was like just it was a good time. We had a lot of fun, had some Navy augments there. We, you know, we did our due diligence. I have you know all sorts of great memories from TQ, but it was boring, I would say, based on being in Ramadi. That's what kind of sucked.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

What what was your what was your interaction? I guess kind of for was it really your first interaction doing like a sister like work program, I guess, with like Navy guys coming over and working with them. What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, I I was pretty good with it just because of my experience with the Air Force already at Kadena. So I kind of knew how other people operated. So when the Navy came in there, uh it was a little more comfortable because we trained with them in Pensacola. So um, but they all came off the ship, they're like you know, that Matt Ert team that is not necessary for any MMTs because we all we had an MMT in Fallujah, MMT in Ramadi. Those are established MMTs, so they're not MMTing anymore. Now they're just kind of holding holding the locations. Um, so they came to us and we're training them, and you know, they're we're running them through marine stuff, we're getting them uh, you know, done with all of their uh uh FMF pins and all that stuff. So yeah, so that was really fun uh interacting with them. And we had some really good sailors, like a couple of them were knuckleheads, but even the knuckleheadedness thing to them, they were phenomenal. You know, they worked really hard. I was really proud of them. I was proud to work with them. Uh I'm still like a corporal sergeant at the time. Yeah. So I'm still a young dude, you know, they're petty officer first classes and stuff, and and they're, you know, we had one chief and he was our he was our doc. And that guy was the most hilarious dude on the planet.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Um generally, but most times they are.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Yeah. Oh, he he cut a staph infection off with a knife on one of the one of the sailors, and I was like, I'm never gonna make fun of you guys ever again.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Just fucking nuts, dude. Like, um just like, hey, this is gonna work. We're going back to like 1883 medical medical treatment and just cut it out. We'll be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

I was waiting for him to get the old uh the old hot wire out and just kind of singe it down his body, you know. But I was I was dying, but that was uh it was a good time. Tq TQ was good, and then I learned a lot of I learned how to be a controller at a location though. I didn't learn how to be an actual arrival controller, and I 100% admit that. I learned how to be a TQ arrival controller. I knew exactly what those guys did every day and what approaches we had, and that was the extent of our training was what is here, that's what I'm training on. And I never really looked at the 7110 a whole bunch outside of the stuff that we use there. So I when I re-enlisted, I re-enlisted for orders to Cherry Point because I said, hey, I need to go back and get more calls because I knew the importance of that. And at the time that I'm doing this, they set up our unit to go to Afghanistan next. So we're gonna come back, we're not gonna do Iraq anymore, it's our turn to go to Afghanistan. And I actually, you know, I'm like, okay, I want to go with these guys because I've been with them for the last couple years. I want to stay with them. Hey, can I postpone my orders? They wouldn't let me. Uh, they told me no. So I helped prep these guys for Afghanistan by doing the pre-deployment training. Uh, and as the S3 uh S3 chief, so I was the S3 chief over at uh Dead Alpha and Kevin Brady was the S1 chief. So we're we're preparing them for Afghanistan. We're going through all the classes. I'm a little pissed off that they won't let me uh postpone my orders, push them back so I can uh rip out there with these guys. But again, needs of the Marine Corps. I'm 100% about that. If you need me somewhere else and don't need me in Afghanistan, I'm gonna go there because that's what you said. And the Marine Corps owns your ass, so it's time to go. And then I go to Cherry Point, and that's when their training really started. The uh the Mecca of Naval Marine Corps air trafficking. So they say. Right? They they say that uh Cherry Point produced. Is a lot of good controllers. But Cherry Point, because of its size, as a master jet base on the East Coast and the amount of things they do, they run into a lot of having very good controllers, very good Marines, and a handful of good Marine Air Traffic controllers. So I get there, and there is a lot of just controllers there. Yeah. That's all they want to do. They have no desire to deploy, and I'm coming from deployments. And I show up there, and uh Justin Studler, he's he's the crew chief at the time, he's a sergeant. I'm coming in, I'm the sergeant, he's getting ready to rotate to the debt to do his stuff. Um, so I'm taking over the crew for him. So I kind of sit back and watch. Um, and this is the first time of me being a crew chief, you know. I'm the senior guy on the crew, and I'm only a sergeant. Um, a relatively junior sergeant at that, you know. I had just got promoted to sergeant earlier that year on that deployment. Um, and so I am trying to figure out, you know, and I'm watching how he's running the crew to kind of get to know, you know, the tendencies of the crew. And I got a lot of quality individuals, man. I got I got some really good dudes and dudets, but I got a lot of like weird personalities that I got to deal with. And I start and I'm like, hey, you know, this is me. I introduce myself, tell them, hey, I'm an arrival controller, but you know, brass tacks, everybody here. Some of you have more qualifications than I do already because you've been here for longer and I've been doing this. I understand that. I'm gonna lean on you for knowledge, but don't think for one second that I don't run this crew and this is my show. Um, and it was it was that was my first time establishing myself as a leader, really.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Um so what was that like for you? Because I I I kind of say I I feel like uh so after I left her, I left Dead A out on the West Coast, I came to Cherry, I came to the station on orders, and uh I literally PCS and like my first week Mount Cherry got pinned on sergeant. Um the crew chief at the time got orders, and within a month he was gone, and I was waiting to get a new crew chief. And so it was a weird, like intermittent for me of like figuring people out, like trying not to set myself up to be like, hey, I'm taking over a crew because I know there's another staff and CEO that's gonna come in and do that. What was that transition like for you? Kind of like, hey, I'm I'm doing day-to-day like deployment operations focusing on that to kind of I mean because what you're probably handling roughly what 30, 40 individual Marines at that time?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Yeah, I had uh I had 22 on the crew, I believe, at the time. So yeah, pretty close. It it was strange, right? Because I I had leadership skills, I never really had to use them because most of the time I was deployed with peers, or you know, I had a staff sergeant and a lieutenant or a captain or whatever, you know, Kylie Kozak were always there for me. Um so I really didn't have to, you know, lead these other corporals. And you know, I said this before leading your peers is probably the hardest thing to do, is setting the example because of the you know the clash that you'll have of both being the same rank, you're not telling me what to do. Inspiring people that are your rank is very difficult. So um when I get there, you know, I am one of like a couple of sergeants, but I'm the senior sergeant. Um eventually, you know, I get to a point where there's eight sergeants on crew, and I'm this I'm the senior sergeant, so we'll get there. But um the transition was kind of difficult because now I'm starting to know that I have a lot to do. I have I have qualifications to get, I need to get on all of these things, but I also have to take care of all these, you know, young individuals. I'm barely older than them, but I'm I am taking them through financial courses. I'm trying to make sure that they are scheduled properly for PT and for training on every position. I'm doing the logs, I'm doing the you know, the review of all of the training uh reports and training sheets at the end for the for the office. I'm starting to interact with them a lot more. It was it was very difficult to start off, but I knew that I had to establish myself as somebody that here's the thing. I'm gonna lead you, but there's nothing that I that you're gonna do that I won't do. And and that's how I started it off. And I said, if you guys have something, you need to come to me. I don't need all the semantics of like, hey, sergeant, get you know, hands behind your back looking like a complete freak. Come and tell me what's going on, and we can fix it as adults. There's still gonna be that respect, and I wanted to earn my respect that way because in my mind, you know, every single rank has a specific level of respect that's already levied on it. Whenever you go buy that chevron at at the MCX, two to four dollars, that's what that piece of metal costs. But the design of that also comes with a level of respect that people have for that position based on the people that came before you. If that's already there, I want you to respect me as a man and and you know, somebody that can guide you for success. You know, that's what I wanted. Respect me as a man, and the respect for the rank will come as well. So whenever they say Sergeant Lang, Staff Sergeant Lang, that's not a it's not a pun, it's not a joke, it's a hey, when we say this, this is somebody who actually gives a shit about you. So that was probably the most difficult thing is establishing myself there. Uh and knowing that I had to train in front of all these young Lance corporals and and corporals. I had to do that. So I had no room to be to have that bad day and get kicked off position because then you wonder what it looks like whenever you're telling them what to do later. That's that's the whore most worst thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

So there's a there's another dynamic about Cherry Point, and this is kind of personal opinion, is like and I went, I mean, I only did two air station, I worked four different airfields, right? But um I feel like Cherry Point's got a different kind of workflow to it, and that's because of the DOD controllers you have there. Yes. They're on crew, they like they're essentially part, but they're they're not a part of anything that you work with. They do their own thing, but they're also responsible for training everybody. Um did you kind of have any DOD interaction with civilians while like that was the same, or what was the difference between uh working with DOD controllers in Japan versus DOD controllers in Cherry Point? Because um, like you know, you have a GS-13 supervisor, you know, you have all the GS12s in the rare room, then you have a GS11 in the tower that's dedicated to the tower only. And it's kind of a different beast of getting all these people together. You know, you got veterans, you have different guys from different branches, and you're kind of working together to kind of figure everything out. And they're also trying to give all this knowledge and train everybody effectively to get qualifications, too.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Uh, for sure. Uh, it it was a different demon dealing with the civilians at Cherry Point, and not because they were bad by any means. They were some of the best individuals that I had met. Um, you obviously have certain ones that you you like or dislike more than the others, but for the most part, I had I had a good interaction with them. They are all unionized. So that was the most difficult part. Yeah, out in Japan, those guys are just happy to be there, man. They just love they love being out there, they love the island, they love the culture, and yeah, there wasn't enough traffic for them to really get pissed at you about anything because if you messed up the one C-130 that you talked to that day, they just kind of look at you and be like, huh. You know, at Cherry Point, you know, that one C-130 was one of, you know, the hundred ops you're gonna do that hour. Yeah. And and we were pretty busy still ramping in Iraq and Afghanistan, so there's a lot of training. The AV8s are going. Uh, we still had EA6 uh Bs there, um, and then F-18s and then F-15s that come down from Seymour Johnson that come down to party. So it was like you had to be on your game. Uh the civilians there, they were really good at training people. And that's what it was a blessing and a curse. Because, like I said, I I don't really have anything bad to say about any of the civilians that I worked with uh at my time at Cherry Point, the Tim Klingers, Eddie Mobley's, Mike Lanez, you know, they're awesome dudes, right? And so knowledgeable. John Dorgan uh rest in peace. He passed away recently, but uh you know, John Dorgan was a great guy, just cool, calm, and collected. Teach you the intricate levels of ATC that you needed to be a great controller. The downside to that, right, is they're unionized, but they only care about air traffic control. They don't care about the marine stuff. You know, Mike Lane and a couple of them would kind of get into that, uh, because Mike Lane was a sergeant major, so he'd get into it from time to time. But most of the time they stayed out of it because the way the union agreement worked, they wanted to make sure they steer clear of any of those type of issues so there's no ambiguity between applying the collective bargaining agreement and the Marines. They're there to train them and they knew it. So you would that's where you got a lot of great controller, shitty marine people.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

And so Yeah, it's it's it's one of those weird beasts. Like uh, so I remember like one of a like one of a million interactions I had with them. And uh I remember it was that time I think it was uh Staff Sergeant Patterson had left. He was going to Pensacola. Oh yeah. I was waiting on I was waiting on uh Staff Sergeant Woo to come in and take over.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Ing Wu, whatever his name is.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh and I had been a sergeant for like maybe six months, and I remember Patterson had texted me, he's like, hey dude, like do your fit rep. And I'd never looked or been walked through on how to do a fucking fit rep whatsoever. And so like I'm pulling open open my MOL and I'm like, okay, how do I do this? And uh Josh Hall and one of the one of the other guys uh are up in the tower and they're like, What are you like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm trying to do my fit rep. They're like, Okay, put on your big boy pants, do this, yeah, put this in. They're like, to be honest, like you're probably gonna get a non-observed because you've been a sergeant for six months, it's not the end of the world. Yeah. Um you can go and talk to the major, and if you want it to be observed, you can have it be observed. And that was like super, super helpful. And that was like one time, and again, very few that sometimes they would interact with us with like marine stuff and things like that. Um and at the same time, those guys are up there 20 like 24-7 with us, training constantly and and putting the pressure on, and it's it's one of those dynamics that is super super helpful because you have that foundation of knowledge that's continuity for a facility and it pushes people through. It it has a a good foundation for knowledge to pass on to people. Absolutely. So and once you get through what'd you walk, what you walk out of Cherry Point with qualification-wise.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Uh so I left facility rated. Um it was a blessing to be facility rated there because of the amount of traffic. So I I did the radar first, and and again, I've always been comfortable in radar um uh you know, my entire career because it's a video game. So I get my west side first, you know, the New Bern uh area, they were giving out 53s, 54s. So that that was a good piece for me because at the time I was on a waiver, I needed that, but then I got my 53 in Iraq. It was a good way to segue that 53 knowledge in Iraq that was very minimal to a position that wasn't that hard. But I got a 53-54 out of it. Uh so now I'm comfortable with qualifications, I can just kind of coast my way into I don't have to rush. I I think that's yeah uh where I was at. And then I moved over to East Side and Arrival, got that. Rex Loden was there, you know, it got me through on arrival. I got through on east side, and this is before um before you got there, they didn't have the burner, they didn't, you know, we had yeah, we had an APCA, but that was it. You know, we didn't have the burner, you didn't have that extension of airspace to the north. We were working on it at the time that I was there. So I get qualified in radar, and then I become the radar chief because Rex Loden is leaving, and I am the most senior-rated senior marine there that can be the radar chief for him leaving as a staff sergeant. And I'm like, I have no idea what this chief is supposed to do. And he didn't give me, you know, God God love Rex. He didn't have time to give me a breakdown of all the things that he did. Uh, he gave me a breakdown of the basic stuff, then it was like just figure it out. And this is the point where me, I am now in the figure it out mode everywhere I go. You know, I don't need a breakdown from you. I will figure out what happens here and I will do it my way. Um so I become the radar chief, and that's when I start training in the tower as well. I'm finding time as a radar chief to go up to the tower for a few hours a day, uh, work on that, I get qualified in the tower, get my CTO. You know, that was the the four years at being the radar chief, went through inspections. That four years blessed me because not only did I get a lot of that knowledge of air traffic all in that one bunch, you know, so it sticks with you a little bit better than getting it over the course of multiple duty stations. I also got managerial experience of a branch that not a lot of sergeants had. So I am already ahead of my peers in that regard of understanding when these new adaptation uh, you know, discs are being forwarded out to maintenance and when they're gonna load the adaptations and what they're gonna do to the approach controllers, and then doing LOAs with other people, writing up certain agreements, you know, coordinating and collaborating operations with other people. It was trial by fire, dude. And I and I went in there and I I thought I excelled at it. I had Joe Hendrickson, you know, he's retired now, but Joe Hendrickson helped me out a lot. I'd ask him questions every day. Was he still was he still a chief warrant officer at the time? Uh no, so he was a he was a civilian. He was one of the last chief warrant officers of the uh of the MOS before they took that away. So yeah, um, God willing they bring it back. Who knows? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Um there's there's some there's some dabble about the uh kind of chief warranter-ish position that comes from controllers and different other positions like that.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

There's a little plug, right? There's always a little plug, and I and I hope so. But one of the cool things that happened at Cherry Point out of all that stuff, you know, I think the coolest thing is Lance Corporal Pyburn shows up to my crew. And Lance Corporal Pyburn and I instantly have a bond because I can I can see that this kid's got it, you know what I mean? Like it's just like he he's there. I think everybody who meets him kind of sees it, you know. It's just like hey, this kid's ready. And Pyburn, I tortured him so much because of that. I tortured him to try to give him everything that I thought that I needed when I was Lance Corporal Len. Yeah, so Pyburn, Pyburn comes to me, he's always asking me questions, and this was great because it developed our friendship. And and uh, you know, I consider him my family now. Uh, Brett, if you're listening to this, you know you're my family. Don't try to deny it. You are my son for real. Uh, but I love you and I I love his family. Uh he's he's a great person and individual, he's made me better. Um, he would come to me all the time asking me about stuff. He's like, Yeah, I'm trying to get people to do this, but they won't. I said, Well, let's talk this through. He's like, Well, I need your help. I'm like, No, you need to fix it. And then we would talk about it, and I'm turning him into, or I'm starting to be a part of what has turned him into what he is today. You know, I'm a I'm a small minuscule piece of all the people that it mentored him uh to get him to where he is. And, you know, he's getting frustrated, but he's understanding, and then one day, and he remembers this very, very clearly. One day he came in and he's like, I just need to change the scenery. These guys are pissing me off. I want to be motivated, they're not, because he's running into the whole good controller, bad marine thing. Yeah. And he's like, I want to train. He's like, I just need I need something else. He was saying he wanted to move branches and change up what he's doing. And I took that as you need to go to the tax center then, motherfucker. So I sent him over to the tax center for a month, and if you ask him today, he says he's like, that was one of the best things I that ever happened because now I can do my own taxes really easily. But oh, dude, it was it was great. But I got I got to meet him amongst other people, you know. There's a lot of, you know, uh Trish Harrell and and her husband uh Matt, they they were there, former Dash people, and I'm telling you, some of the best controllers I had ever seen coming from there. Pibern, like I said, you know, I didn't know he was going to turn into what he turned into. I knew he was gonna be successful, but you know, turning into what he has now. It was a great opportunity, and I and I got all that from being you know a radar chief and stuff and a crew chief at a very young rank, I would say, to do that. Um it was cool, you know, and that was my experience at Cherry Point. It was, you know, in a nutshell, like I don't regret it at all. I don't regret being yelled at by Mike Lane, you know, telling me, you know, position heading altitude clearance, you know. He just screaming at me the whole time, and then he unplugs me and he's like, he's like, just stand behind me and shut up, you know. Stubb like that, and then you know, Tim Klinger doing his funny things, uh telling us the story of lighting his ass on fire and all that other stuff. But yeah, I came out of there facility rated, and it really that established my career from then on out. So after that, you know, guess what? I asked for. I asked to go back to Japan because I wanted to go to Max 4 and see what that's all about. You know, I got my deployments in overseas. Now let me get you or in Iraq. Now I want them in, you know, East Asia. Let's get it. I'm in Indopaycom, let's get it done. And they're like, oh, you want to go to the beach, huh? And I was, you know, at the time I'm telling cop, I'm like, yeah, his wife's Japanese, so I'm like, I'm like, he's gonna love that. I want to go out there. And I I'll go to Okinawa, I'll go to Iwakuni, don't give a shit, right? I don't hear from him for like two weeks, and then I get an email that says, You have orders to Pensacola, Florida. I'm like, I hate this motherfucker.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

You know, so I so it was kind of a weird dynamic for me because like when I first got in, a lot of people looked at orders like Pensacola kind of like more of a curse than a blessing. And then as I was getting out, I feel like the Marine Corps obviously became more family-oriented with like, hey, you can stay a little bit more geolocation, east coast, west of uh stuff like that, and like all the E5s and E6s were like, Cool, send me to Pensacola. Yeah. So obviously, you weren't too excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

I did not want to be an instructor, dude, because I I always I always heard, and and it's weird as my career progressed, what actually happened to me, but um, I didn't want to be an instructor because at the time all I had heard, and I was very impressionable too. You know, I listened to all my leaders, uh, good, bad, and indifferent. I learned something from every one of them. Um, and I don't hate cop, it was just funny the way he did that. Cop did that, and it was I was like, this motherfucker, you know. I'm and I know, I know he's behind his computer just laughing his ass off, but all I had heard was, you know, those who can't do teach. And I'm like, well, I just proved that I can do, I proved that I can do out in the combat zone, I proved that I can do here at Cherry Point, the Mecca. Like, come on, man. I don't want to go instruct, dude. And I go down there, and it was very what is the best way to describe it? It was very awkward in the beginning because the dynamic of the schoolhouse and the instructors, and the level of which not only could they do the great things that they do by instructing, but the level of trouble that people can get into in Pensacola and what the instructors were in, there's certain people's you know, methods and ideals that I did not go along with. I did not link to that, I was not all about that. I was I I was a family man, I wanted to enjoy Florida, but I also wanted to provide instruction. Uh, the good thing was I went down there to teach Terps. That was my initial shot across the bow. When Terps was there before it moved back to Mott's, I went down there with uh Emily Griffin. I met her down there and Dusty Hardison, and and we instructed Terps together for about a year, and then and then Terps was getting moved over. Um And I had, and luckily this happened because I was an instructor in TERPS, I went to all the TIRPS classes. I did a lot of things again that young Marines, like sergeants, like you know, around were not doing. I was doing all this.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

For somebody that maybe may not be familiar with like TERPS, I know I am. I've had plenty of people and mentors go through what exactly is TERPS and what's the foundation for TIRPS and whites there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

So TERPS is terminal instrument uh procedures. Uh, and we taught people how to design those based on uh the 8260.3, which is the manual for terps design, uh, and how you do approaches basically into and out of an airfield. Um, both instrument and uh precision, non-precision approaches. We design them, you make the holding patterns, you do the altitudes, you utilize math, trigonometry. Everybody loves that. Sine, cosine, and tangent. Essentially, for anybody who's not ATC who listens to this podcast, you're a super nerd. That's all you are. You're a super nerd, and you have to study math, you got to design shit, you gotta draw stuff, you know. And I did it back when we didn't have the GPD computers that you just put the information of a site survey and elevations and things in. You drew it out, you wrote out long division. You know, Emily's teaching our class with Dusty Hardison. I'm looking at her like, this looks like the Matrix, you know. I fucking quit. And she looked at me, she's like, You're coming to instruct. I'm like, instruct what? You're drawing a hippo on the on the screen, man. I don't know what you're doing. And she was a very good instructor, she she was very good at what she did. Um, and and she was able to explain things that I really understood. Uh, and from then on out, you know, it it was a pretty smooth ride to get to be an instructor of that. Uh, I started to get good at it. Um, there was a couple of things that you just I couldn't master. You know, I would always ask Emily, I'd be like, Can you please teach the Tacan portion? Because I just I'm not tack and today, you know, I can't do it. Um, so uh got that done, and then after about a year, uh drafting came down and was like, hey, we're pulling this to Mott's, they're gonna move it over and do terps there, and he was gonna put his own flavor on it. And, you know, he he showed up, and this is how I knew that you know, Mots was kind of the big leagues. This is the first iteration of Mott's that I had even known about um that it was the big leagues because we had these long division problems to in order to determine you know where your touchdown points are and all these other things in a tur terminal instrument procedure. He came in, I write the formula on the board because he asked me about it. I write the formula on the board, I'm like, here it is, uh you know, Tom, this is it. You know, I didn't call him Tom at the time. I was only a staff sergeant, he was a fucking master sergeant, so no, we didn't do that. But like, hey Tom, this is this is the formula. He's like, Well, did you know you could do this, this, this, this, and this, and turn it into like he had like three letters and a number on there. And I'm looking at him, I was like, How the fuck do you know shit like that? Like, normal people don't know shit like that. Like, were did you live under power lines as a kid or something? Like, I mean, he's doing some Rain Man shit, and I'm telling you, it's not in a book, it's not anywhere. But he worked at Nav Fake for a while too, so it's like, yeah, he understood all those things, but the fact that he was able to break it out like that and then truncate it to even more simpler yet complex form. I was like, Man, these mods guys are fucking all on the spectrum, dude. What is what is happening? And I was very impressed with it, but you know, me it being me, I talked a lot of shit, and I was just like, I don't know how to do that fucking nerd shit. I ain't no punk. I'm gonna go out fight somebody right now. You know, like you wanted to go beat somebody up just because you fell like a pussy after listening to that shit. So I had a I had a blast. But Tom does that, but he brings the course down. So I'm like, what am I gonna do? Emily uh was really good in the tower, that was one of her her specialties. She was she was very good, so she rotated. Uh um, actually, I believe she rotated in block one. She wanted to go to block two to do tower stuff, but she was a very good instructor, so they sent her to block one with the initial information, which was very good for her because uh she did phenomenal. She produced a lot of really smart individuals. I go to block three and I'm an instructor now in radar. So I go in there and radar's a wild west. We're the last little bit. They've already taken their AWT, so there's no way we're kicking them out, but we're failing these people left and right. I'm running ARBs and stuff, so a lot of the people that you probably know uh have had an interaction with me at some point inside of that room. And I'm telling you, uh, me and Lambert, uh, Alex Lambert, we had a competition to see who uh we could make cry the most. And I made, I think I had like nine people one day, and Alex like, I don't know how I'm gonna beat that. Because they would walk in and I would literally look at them and be like, oh, you think you think you're gonna fail on purpose? You're gonna fail weather on purpose? Okay, well, how about this? How about you fail again and then I reclassify you as a meat marine, and then you can go freaking hang out with the salameter all you want, and I would talk shit, and then I would actually call their parents. I would, I would, I would get my phone out and I would tell them, hey, give me your dad's phone number right now, and they would do it, and I would call them. I was like, I was like, hey, this is this is Staff Son Lane, you know, and then I get promoted to Gunny a a little later on. Um, but I'm like, this is Staff Son Lane. You know what your son's doing right now? He fucking failing weather, and I would just go in, dude. And then afterwards, I would call him back. I was like, hey, uh, just wanted you to know your son is progressing, but I need him to understand the importance of what he is trying to do. Um, but I would just tee up on him, no warning, kick shit across the room, throw shit, just it was hilarious. And everybody would call me if they needed somebody to get their ass chewed because they were like, you say some of the funniest shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:33

Um, yeah, because my my first experience with my first real ass chew in the Marine Corps came from a gunnery sergeant lane in the schoolhouse. That's what uh that's what I do. I I it was kind of funny because it was such an awkward situation. I woke up late and I missed morning formation, but it uh Adam Burst came into my room and he's like, Like, are you up? And I'm like, getting in the middle of getting dressed. So I make it to class on time. I just miss the morning formation. And obviously, hey, go to the fucking Steph and CO lounge, like you know, the gunny locker, the goat locker, and everything, go go see Gunny Lang. So obviously go in there, fucking with awkward, like you know, did your weirdo shit parade. Yeah, I did my weirdo shit, and I'm like, uh, you wanted to see me gunny short? He's like, Yeah, what the fuck you doing showing up late? And I was like, uh well, I showed up on time. Why the fuck are they saying you're late? And I was like, uh, I missed morning formation. I overslept on my alarm. And you're just like so you were here on time, but you missed morning formation. It was like, yep, and he was just like, Okay, so you're a big boy, like be an adult, like show the fuck up on time and don't miss your fucking alarm. Get out of my face. And it's like, oh thank god, that could have uh and I think it was like you, and there was one other gunnery sergeant at the time, which the the the the student remember mill was like he got kicked out of block two for like yelling at students and stuff, and then of course, right right as we're going through block two, they're like, hey, he's coming back in. Like, he's gonna be doing like the evaluations to pass block two. I can't remember what his name was. And it was just like I my interactions with him were just like simple standard tower shit of like, hey, I have a level of ex expectation of what I expect you to do perform in the simulation, and if you don't meet that, you're below standard. Yeah, and if you're below standard, like fucking fix it. And we had a couple Navy cats that like couldn't wrap that around their fucking head. They're just like, he's me. And I'm like, no, he's just a fucking hard ass about the standard, it's not that hard, right? So uh, but what was uh what was like the Navy, Navy, Marine Corps dynamic for you for your instructors to that shit drove me nuts, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:43

I mean the Navy's got the Navy's got its way of leading people and its way of providing mentorship for their career paths, you know. I'm not knocking it. I will say this it's not conducive to the way we train Marines and what we expect of them. So, like the Navy students, there was more of them, so obviously it's not the Navy's fault. There's more students, so there's a higher level of percentage of people that are probably shit bags, right? Yeah. Um, we had our fair share of shit bags, but my problem was is that they always tried to reason with these little fuckers. Um I don't, it's not about reasoning at that point. We're training you for a skill that could cause people to, you know, die. You know, you could cause an incident that could kill somebody, and you're not only impacting them, but you're impacting their families. And it's a very important job, and I've seen it firsthand of like, you know, what air traffic controllers need to be whenever shit starts getting crazy. Can you do that whenever you are getting shot at? When you are having car bombs blow up, you know, near your base, and you're you're running helicopters in to come and help people. Like it's you need to be there. Uh, and I always tell the story of uh this AH64 uh pilot. They uh the pilot, the co-pilot both uh were awarded silver stars in Iraq. A soldier got shot in the face at this place called Donkey Island, ended up getting shot in the face uh and was bleeding out. Uh the H60s couldn't get there because it was too hot. Combat was still going on. These 64 pilots land, you know, came down, sprayed the area with the with the 20 mil, landed. Co-pilot jumps out, throws this soldier into the bird, gets back on, toe straps himself to the wing of the 64, and they fly back 10 minutes to Ramadi to Charlie Med. I'm in the, you know, we're working that scenario, and we're looking at him like there's something on your wing, but it's like getting the information right there and being able to pass that stuff and provide, you know, moving out all the PAX guys to bring this individual back. That's air traffic control, you know. That's that piece that you need to get that soldier to Charlie Met as fast as possible because if he stays above 2,000 feet for too much longer, he's gonna die. So you have to understand all these things. So we got him back. They were actually able to save his life. And I say, you know, me being just a minor part of that, uh, you know, possibly was, you know, one of the segues that that soldier was able to survive and thrive later on. So I didn't like it when they reasoned with people. I it was like, you do this, I'm telling you to do this, this is why. I'll give you I'll give you the why if you really want to know. But when I tell you I don't want no fucking bullshit, I don't want you looking at me like joking around and stuff, now's not the time. You know, we we are training here, and that's kind of the mindset that we all kept. We had our fun, right? Well, like we had there was time and place for fun, but they always had this nonchalant way of talking to people. And I and the Marines, they're like, if they can talk to them, you're gonna say something that you think you can get away with. And I always look at them like, if you ain't gonna say it to me, Lambert, you know, Robinson, uh Wethington, all these guys in here that are heavy hitting like motherfuckers, then don't say it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:21

Uh I remember I remember Lambert, he was our uh our Marine class for the the two of us that graduated, he was like our like mentor for our class group. And I remember like so PARs was kind of interesting. I enjoyed radar in the schoolhouse. I didn't really want to do it out in the fleet that much. Um but I had past failed PARs and it was really weird because I had gone through what a nerd. I went through well, so I went through three, right? Yeah, so first first two went great, and I'm on my my last PAR, and I already done a missed approach. And so I'm doing a PAR, I'm doing the call-outs, and I'm like, oh, like going above Clyde Path. Yeah, slightly above well above Clyde Path. And and then all of a sudden I was I think I panicked, but I was like, hey, too high for safe approach, execute missed approach, climb maintain, whatever, and then contact arrival on this. And the the AC one from the Navy that was like doing my test, she was like, he was going down. I was like, What? She's like, he was coming back down on click path. I go, that's not what I saw. I I executed the missed approach. And she was like, You you should you you're fail you're failing this, but I need to talk to people first. And because I had done the missed approach properly, they were like, You should fail, but you did everything right, so you don't fail. And it's like that's the world of ATC of like, hey, technically, if you know the rules and you do everything correctly and it's done safely, like you're you're not in the wrong, it's just not the way somebody else would have done it, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

And you're not in and you weren't in the position that you are now, right? To be able to say, you know, it it also says, you know, if in my judgment the aircraft is in an unsafe proximity, you know, the terrain obstructions or whatever, you feel like the approach is unsafe, you can break it off. And exactly. That's what they are never in that position. But the best part about it was that we're able to teach from that to where you can say, Yeah, we say that you failed, but in our minds, you didn't fail, you did everything right. It's just this is a better method to do it going forward. So now you get to the position where you're in now, is like, you know, I got times to rip these aircraft off because I got edicts I got to make, or I got wheels up times I got uh from TMU or whatever. You know, hey, you know, the best rule of thumb takes these guys about a minute and 15 seconds to taxi out and get going. So this is when you want to call for release. What if I call for it right on time? Well, you can do that, but now they're departing three minutes later. Is that expeditious? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

So yeah, we all we all know it takes a regional jet a minute and a half on a runway after that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

Depends on who you're talking to, brother. I I've seen a couple that are willing to drop the hammer on those little Ferraris.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

Well, I'll I'll tell you what, it's always a shocking we get we get a once-in-a-blue moon uh uh regional jet pilot to be like, hey, we'll take a midfield intersection departure. And for us, midfield's you know, well over 6,000 feet remaining. And we're just like, you will? That's okay, even better. You get out here quicker.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

And then you're just you're happy that you you can apply wave turbulence finally.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

Yep. Um, so kind of speeding up because I I the last couple years of your career were really interesting to me. We we had a chance to run across each other. I when I got to Cherry Point, you were gunny still at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:44

That was the second time I had been there, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

Yep, and I think you were you left station and you had gone back to Max 2 and you were the ops chief for Max 2. Um, which you weren't really at Max 2 as an ops chief that long.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:58

Yeah, it was so I was there as the WTTP chief. Um I went back over there. Uh Master Guns Mediati wanted me to run WTTP, so I'm in there with uh you know maintenance and T AOC and you know all these guys. So I'm learning again what these people are doing. Uh I know ATC maintenance and all that, but I don't know these other guys, and I'm trying to figure out data links and all that. And they schedule me to go to MMTI. Keep in mind I've been on multiple MMTs already uh in live time, and I'm finally going to MMTI. I go there, I train, I get my MMTI, and that's when I find out about MOTS. And I went there, Deringer was the instructor. That's where I was coined the term precious, of course, of looking like uh Schmeagel. I was hoping to go with Hawkeye, but it can't be that cool, brother. Um, and I was laughing, you know, it was great, and and I I always embraced that just because, you know, it came from a I love that training event. MMTI was by far one of the funnest things that I had ever done. But I'm going there, everybody else is there. I'm a gunny whenever I go. Everybody else is, you know, sergeants and below, a couple staff sergeants, but I'm the only one there that has done a live MMT in combat.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:16

You know what I mean? What was and and what was kind of that dynamic for you? Because obviously initially when and Brett was training me, I was a I was a I was a young fresh corporal, he was like, Yeah, MMTI is just generally a little bit more for you know younger staff NCOs that are kind of getting more into leader leadership positions, and as the years progressed, it really kind of, in my opinion, and the way I saw it, was really putting sergeants E5s in as leaders so that they could do both because you also have that lieutenant with you that can run that interference and and kind of do briefings and stuff like that. So being a gunny and stuff like that, what was your interactions with you know, you know, student peers that you were working with, and then also walking through MOTS as a how do I what's the phrase for it? A embedded course embedded puke, right? God, I fucking hate that. I hate that shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

Yeah, we were still going through all of the academia uh at the time too with Derringer. He had us going through the academia, so we were taking the test that the uh the C3 guys were were taking and everything. But walking through Mods as a student and as a gunny, it was very it was very strange, but I've always been the type of guy that comes in with an open mind. You know, I'm here to learn, I'm here to listen, I'm not here to bark orders at people. I tried to set the example and I still provided guidance as a gunny, but I also kept to the point of where these guys are my team. You know, Camp House was actually in the course with me. Um I was like, these guys are my team, these guys are my family, we're we're gonna treat them as such, and I felt like I handled myself pretty well considering I left the gunny shit on the side. There was only a couple of times that I had to kind of assert myself as a gunny, um, and it was mostly to a lieutenant. So yeah. But the rest of it, I came in there with an open mind. I listened to Camp House, I listened to uh Bryant. I wanted to learn just as much from them as they can learn from me because that was what was conducive. And I really never thought about like when people call it, oh, you're just a student over here. I'm like, well, you're just a student in C3, so what?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:29

Yeah. And this kind of could have gone progressing into your future and everything. Um, do you feel that doing MMTI and going to the embedded course prepared you a little bit more? One for C three as a student, and then number two, eventually being the ATC chief at Mots.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:48

Yeah, I think it did. Uh, you know, a lot of those things, you know, while I'm sitting at Cherry Point and doing the WTTP, that prepared me a lot because you know, being a WTI is all about training and readiness and being able to enact the training and readiness manual. All the sexy stuff that comes after that is stuff that you incorporate based on that baseline procedures and and policies, right? So I think I think the MMTI course, I if I could do it all over again, I would go to that course 100% of the time every time. Because it would you do it sooner in your career?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:20

Huh? Would you would you have done it a little bit earlier?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:24

I wish I would have gone like Pyburn did as a corporal, you know what I mean? Like I I wish I would have done it so early because it taught me how to study, it it taught me the separations of jobs and the importance of the uh connectivity piece and communication piece between all of us, and it expands your horizon on you're not just an air traffic controller. You might be the critical node of information, you might not be doing anything air traffic control-wise, but you have the critical information that is going to determine the timeliness of an operation and whether or not we meet our objectives. It could be that it'd be that simple. And MMTI really teaches you that because you have to be able to work with all these other entities and deploy with them. You know, liaise with them, make friends with them. They have to trust you whenever you're doing stuff. Um, they don't know why you're there, and you have to tell them about it. So it prepared me for C3 a lot, and I just rotated right back. So I get back from MMTI, I train like some MMT members and shit, and then they freaking box me back up and said, You're going to C3 now. You mean I gotta take all these goddamn tests again, son of a bitch. I had just I had gotten wrecked in 18 from uh MMTI. Now I'm getting wrecked in 19 from WTI. Yeah. And it really when I got to WTI, it I was already kind of established. I knew what I knew what was expected, I knew what was going on in the intricacies of the thing. And then I started to say things, and people were like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, Well, you can't. Design airspace like that. Like, how do you define that on a radar scope? Like, you can't just draw lines. Like, each one of these has to have specific coordinates, and you have to be able to transcribe it on a you know radar screen or a map accurately, otherwise, we're in trouble. And that kind of I think sparked a little bit of, oh, this guy might have something, you know, he might he might be okay. Um, so I passed, I passed WTI next, become a C3 uh WTI, and that's when Hackworth had asked me, he's like, What do you think about possibly coming here? You know, I got a couple of people that we're gonna take a look at. Would you want to put your resume in? I said, Absolutely, I would love to be one of you because I respected them so much on how much knowledge they had, uh, the way they conducted business. And so I put it in, and lo and behold, I was selected, you know. And at the time, now I'm actually Mediati's retiring and I'm rolling into the ops chief role until Hackworth and I switched places. Yeah. So I'm managing an entire squadron of people as a you know gunny and selected master sergeant. Uh, I get promoted to master sergeant, I'm managing this shit, broadens my horizons. Major psychis, uh, lieutenant colonel psychis now, worked the dog piss out of me. So shouts out, Heidi, good job. You fucking tortured me forever, and I wouldn't trade a single day for it because she was great to work with. Um, but she was a WTI as well, so I got a lot of experience working that side. So as soon as I got to Mott's, um, and Hackworth and I traded spots. I really didn't have a whole bunch of a brief. Again, like I said, going back to what I said earlier, it's like I'm just there. I don't need a brief. I just figure it out when I get there. Very first fucking day, dude. Very first fucking day. I'm back. This is during COVID, so I go on my two-week sabbatical for not being sick, which was horseshit. Um, I get there and it's the day of the TNR conference. We are changing the TNR today. Didn't even realize I don't have any of Hack Worse, like, these are the proposed changes, these are the things that are already there. So basically, I said, you know what? Fuck this. I I I got on there because Powell looks at me and he says, I did the officer stuff. Now you do all of the enlisted chapter. I was like, well, I don't know what the fuck I'm supposed to do because I don't have anything. But me being me, I'm just like, I ain't gonna tell the boss that I don't know what the fuck to do. I'm gonna figure it out. And so I got on there, I said, hey everybody, and there's people from all time zones. Don't want to waste Japan's time. It's 2 a.m. You know, you don't want to disappoint people. And this is my first impression to the fleet as the new C3 chief. I said, okay, guys, I'm gonna lay it to you flat. I don't know what the hell y'all submitted, and frankly, I don't give a shit. If you submitted it, I want you to have it in front of you, and I'm gonna read line by line this entire chapter and we're gonna figure out what the hell we're gonna change. And everybody was super pissed about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:18

I was gonna say, what was what I'm just I was gonna say, assuming the negative response, because it was like shit, this is gonna be a long day.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:24

It was, and it was a long day, but but we grinded through it, and and that was everybody kind of understood, I think, mostly because I was just forthcoming about it. I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Submit that to me. I'll read it really fast in this next break, and then we'll nail it if it's something that's super important. Luckily, we weren't making any monstrous changes to the T and R at the time. Um, this is before we started putting data links in there and doing all the other shit. So it was like the very first one. And after it was done, Powell looked at me and he was just like, I think that went pretty well. And I was like, I don't know if you're trying to just make me feel good about something. You know, I felt I felt so bad about this was the first thing that I did at Mods. But it turned out to be a blessing because that got me into the book to understand the T and R better than I already done and really understand why things get changed, how to change things, and also how to be the Mods guy. Because everybody would look to me for my opinion, and I said, here the bottom line is that this is my opinion on it, but I don't have a vote. I write what the fleet wants in there. Yeah. If you guys say, before you get PAR, you have to pin the tail on the fattest Marine's ass. I guess that's subparagraph D under, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:53

Well, we we can't get we can't get ALZs. We we want to adjust the ALZ or training requirements.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:59

Yeah, and and I would always say, I don't think that's a good idea, or I I think this is a this is a great idea, we need to do that. And people are like, why do we need to do this? Because they're stuck in their old ways. I'm like, well, if your Marines that are doing it are saying that they need to have it, I think that's worth consideration, regardless of your past feelings on it. And I think that's what made me a pretty good C3 uh uh guy for the TNR. Was I was just open to all of these new things and didn't have a big issue with changing it because I'm like, guess what? If it fucks up, God forbid we have to go in there and change it. Yeah, it's work, but who gives a shit? Like, let's try something.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

So I I think you are yeah, you're you're the second uh chief from Mozavat on here, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:52

Um and you because DNR conference happened, and then you rolled through your first that was my first course, man, and I had to, and my first course was was rough because I didn't have enough time to change all Hackworth's stuff, so he had his flavor on it, and I just had to memorize what he had and kind of made it my thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:14

And and so it was kind of interesting for me because I was there for that, and that was my first course coming back after graduation. I came back as an augment instructor, and it was kind of like I think Hackworth was gone at the time, and Derringer and and Brett were trying to do their exchange for MMT Chief. Uh a lot of different flavors, a lot of different characters all at the same time, like understanding it. Um, what I've seen is every MMT chief, at least, like you said, Hackworth had his flavor on his course, has their way they do things. Uh, I love the way Derringer taught his course just because I'm not a very big book guy, and my my two biggest instructors were Derringer and Adams, um, who are who are like just Rain Man, man, they're smart as shit. And both of them. Yeah, they're encyclopedias and knowledge. And so for me, that was that was super good because I had done so many, you know, training exercises, I'd done, you know, deployment, um, and seen it physically, but then applying it to teach it was was a whole different aspect. So I'm really thankful I went through through Derringer's version of his course. Um, I think it made me a better instructor and made me a little bit better to interact with people because uh lo and behold, um the like last big briefing hack worker walked up to me and he's like, Hey, so you're the only qualified air traffic controller here. You're gonna give the mass end briefing on airspace to everybody in the Commodity Aviation. I was like, I feel like that's an officer's job. He goes, Yes, it is, but again, only qualified controller. Um so go going back and being an augment instructor, being a little bit more prepared, fresh in my mind, and then lo and behold, it gets canceled two weeks later because of COVID of all things. Um what was that response for you like? Kind of like because you know, history of WTI, so people understand a little bit, and like uh WTI has been canceled for two reasons COVID and the first invasion of Iraq. So it's a very um it's a necessity for the Marine Corps to continue to turn out WTIs. Um it's very needed for our community. It keeps ramping out, you know, MMTI uh and leaders for officers so they can continue rotations and stuff like that. What was the community response with like canceling that course and um and dealing with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:33

It was uh that course was canceled. I think we were all in shock, really, just because you know, one, there's a lot of us like we're canceling for a fucking cold. Like, yeah, I know that uh I know that it does impact people and stuff, but it was very political. There's a lot of politics that was flying around, so that made it weird, it made it uncomfortable, but it also, yeah, you know, you just look at it and you're just like, man, I can't believe we would cancel for this. It's gotta be something important. But it set us back, that cancellation set us back, and it made um the fleet really need extra seats later on. So it got to the point of where we got phone calls a lot. Hey, can you take these extra people? Hey, can we do this? Hey, can this be approved? Because we need WTIs and we don't have any. People are lobbying for trying to take spots from the East Coast to float to the West Coast because the East Coast has 20 WTIs, the West Coast has five. It's you know, it's just it was that was probably the worst part, but we took it in stride. I mean, we started making them again, and then it allowed us all to really develop um, you know, Hackworth and Derringer to develop their courses, and me to develop my course, and and Pyburn to develop his, to where when we had that time, we were able to get a little more on point of where where we wanted to go with our courses. The way Hackworth teaches and the way I teach are two different things. We both like to joke around and stuff, but I like to use different analogies um than he does. But we want to get that I wanted to be the instructor because at Mott's, we we all know there was a certain level of uh inferiority with the students and superiority with the instructors that existed in the the time space continuum there. Um we didn't want that. The group that as because 50% of Mott's turned over whenever I got there, like half of them changed out. We had a whole new batch, and then there were some left over from the the previous instructors. So we had a little bit of a clash from time to time, the new instructors versus the old instructors, on how we wanted to come across to the marine sailors and the joint and the joint services and foreign services that came. And then I became the senior C three chief because I was the senior enlisted guy there all of a sudden because everybody had popped out, and I'm like, all right, C3 chief, leading peers. This is gonna be hard because I'm leading the smartest of the smart, dude. And yeah, and I am not the smartest of the smart. So now, now I really got to go into it. So uh Corey Belton is a C three uh uh department chief or department head. I'm the department chief and I'm the ATC chief. I'm developing my course. Corey wants to see me brief, he wants to see how I rock. He's never really worked with me, but he's worked with these other guys. So I have to earn my stretch with him. And I do so uh in a very, in a very positive way, but frustrating to me. Uh but eventually Corey and I became a great team. I worked really hard for him and I do it again and worked really hard for Pal and Pete Zhang while they were there. Uh but we wanted to establish that. Um, I guess you could say we wanted to establish an environment where, yes, we do know the policies and we teach straight out of the book. And when you don't know stuff straight out of the book, I don't call you a fucking retard. I don't call you an idiot, I don't call you this. Everybody that is at that school is at a point in their career where it's time to take their career to the next level, and they didn't get there being a fucking idiot. Um, yeah, even though you could say, Oh, you just filled the spot. Okay, you filled the spot, but you're over here passing tests. You obviously were ready. That's somebody's opinion that is saying that you fill the spot, but you got the selection and now you're here. You got to be good at something. So we decided to, hey, you know, that's great, love the idea. I need you to do it this way. We'll talk about why it's not conducive to this, or you just tell them flat out that doesn't meet the operation parameters, but we didn't come across at it like you're a fucking idiot. And I think they appreciated that. And I've uh I've received a lot of compliments uh, you know, as a C3 chief towards the end of like, you guys are really good, like you listened to us, you didn't make us feel stupid. You actually, you know, guided us rather than just told us, and I think that's what we needed. So it was a great thing, man. All the all the students who came through there, I think they all like my my way of doing things. Hell, I had to talk to them for eight hours straight once doing the TNR. You're like, they they heard my fucking voice for eight hours straight. And I'm telling you, it's hard to keep people engaged in eight hours, but your boy can do it. I tell you that. I said some funny shit, and there's sometimes it just black out. You just go.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:36

Um, so another like really good question for me is so I was able to see it. So I went I went back first time augment instructor canceled WTI. I went back for another round uh in the fall um with like you and Brett. I think it was you and Brett's first full course uh running to Hackworth and Derringer were officially gone at this point. Um, which I had a really good time with that one because uh obviously I I loved working for Brett, really enjoyed working for you. Um, I loved sneaking fruity skull cans all over your hands. Oh, I found it forever. Oh my god. Um, so I I'd really enjoyed that because it I it progressed me as an instructor and leader and how I interacted with people. And so I go back to the fleet, I go back to Shade Point, and the spring course is coming up again. And I find out one of my Marines, a corporal of all people, um, is going to MMTI uh to become an instructor and leader in Thompson. And she was uh a rock star at the station. And when I found out, I was like, I contacted her, I was like, Hey, are you ready? And she's like, I think so. And I'm like, Cool, I'm I'm gonna call dad and talk to dad really quick for you. And Brett was super, he was super chill about it. He was like, Hey man, like I've heard really good things about her. Uh, I'm at the same level of expectation for her as everybody else, but just so she knows, like, and you can tell her this, if she fucks it up, she fucks it up for every corporal for the rest of the you know, that supposedly would come after her.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:13

Um, because Brett and I talked about that, and and he asked me what my opinion was. I said, I said, Brett, if if I leave it up to him to make a lot of those decisions, but I would always give him my opinion, and there are many times he didn't like it. Um, but I gave it to him anyway, and I would tell him is that Brett, I'm gonna tell you this if you allow this to happen and it goes awry, I'm never gonna, as far as I'm concerned, I'm never gonna allow it again. The next guy might, but I I will not because I don't have time for that. We got to produce people who can train people, and and he assured me that he'd get it done, and that was one of the things that Brett and I had, is that when he told me he would, I said, Okay, I I'll let you have it. And and I trusted him, and and he he delivered, and mostly because you know, you guys sent us a very quality individual, and she was able to be inspired by him, and I thought she did a great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:05

Um yeah, she's still she's still a rock star out there. I think she's done a uh I think a couple couple more deployments out out of Mirmar. Yeah. Um, but it it's just one of those things of like how the Marine Corps not necessarily slow to change, but like cautious to change in in a way, right? Um, and seeing that from uh another chief's perspective was a little interesting point.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:27

Well, yeah, and and and Brett did a great job with that, and and he came in, he's like, I told you so. I'm like, You're lucky because I would have fired you and everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:35

Sweet. Finishing up with Mott's and and where was where was your mindset at leaving Motts and going back to the fleet? I feel like from an outsider's perspective, and and maybe it's personal opinion a little bit, like Mods is you know, top of the world impacting on the fleet and and progressing the fleet uh itself as a whole. What was your next goal and what was on your radar to happen next?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:00

Um, so whenever I got I got selected to Master Guns on uh my last class, I got selected to Master Guns and it was good because I was in the zone with two very quality people, you know, two two great guys that if I would have got past, it would have been great, you know, Heidemann and Diaz, they were both really good, and it was uh it was exciting to be in the zone and considered with them. Well, I got selected, and uh they gave me orders to MCI Pack Marine Corps Installation Specific to be uh the ATC chief for uh Mickey Pack, you know, station installations. I said, well, that kind of sucks because I'm a master of guns. I want to go over to the ops thing because that's all I've been doing is ops for the last like eight years of my career, nine years of my career, that's all I had done. Uh so I wanted to go back to that. There was no there was no getting out of it. If I take the selection, that's where I'm going. Uh I can choose not to. I thought I had more in the tank. I had a little bit more in the tank, but not a whole bunch, right? Because I only did uh two extra years after that. Uh I went out there as a master guns to be the TNR chief, and uh I will say that was not where I needed to go coming from months. Coming from the pinnacle of my uh you know, expeditionary war fighting mindset, a station environment doing NATOP's evaluations and worrying about whether or not this person has 10 hours on PAR. I was just I was over it. Like I I was not happy. I went in there, I did my best, I worked really hard. I got uh Fateman IOS. So whoever said that I couldn't do that jokes on you ass wipes it's in there. Um I kind of thrive on that stuff. They're like, there's no way this will get put in. Watch daddy work, that's all I'm saying. Um and and and I I don't take full credit on my own. I just like to say that uh the team that we had there really worked hard to get that done. Um but just coming out there and being able to explain the Mott's perspective to the station guys, I I thought was the reason why I got there. You know, the divine reason why this was the only fucking place I could go. I had to make something of it. So when I went out there, you know, my goal was to get established as as the chief, go meet the people, meet all, you know, go on my visits. I got to go to Hawaii and do NATOs. Oh shit, that sucks, you know. But getting out to Iwakuni, going over to Fatema, my old stomping grounds. I started my career there, it's only right that I ended there. Awesome, it was an awesome turn of events. But once I got there, it was like, I need to bring this experience to these station guys who don't have that, what's in it for me yet. And I basically used my entire two years to do that on top of all the other nonsense that you wouldn't believe that a ATC chief does there. Now, before, whenever it was just a gunny in that spot, you didn't have to do anything but sit in your office, wait for ATC problems, and do ATC shit. As a master guns, when your colonel comes in there and you're the senior enlisted guy and he's talking about some UAS operations off the coast in one of the WDZs that you don't mess with because it has nothing to do with your airspace requirements and how to design new airspace and all that other shit, you don't say no to that. You know, you have to be the senior enlisted advisor, too, and that was very difficult because I was aviation-oriented, and my boss was a former tanker. And boy, I tell you, great, motivated individual, 30 years in the military, motivated individual, and offish at times, wasn't the type of leader that I was used to being around. Uh, don't think he ever got comfortable with me the entire time I was there. Uh just because I was I I was pretty boisterous whenever it came to like certain things he would do. I'm like, what are we doing? Yeah, you know, like this doesn't make any sense. You're talking about data links. There ain't no you're not doing none of that. Let me bring the people in here who can do that. He's like, well, what about these Intel people? I'm like, no, that's not what you need. The Intel guys are for something else. Like, we got to do so. So I tried to bring that, and he was very he was very standoffish whenever I was doing that. But yeah, it was tough. Uh but I racked up, I had a stack of shit that I wanted to get done, and I redrafted it. And I believe that I accomplished everything I wanted to get accomplished out there. Sans the airspace thing, only because we created. Created airspace, we trialed it. It had been in the works for 10 years and they had got a trial. I came in there six months, we got a trial. Um, and and that's not because I do anything special, it's because I was motivated to get everybody involved to do it. Because everybody, you know, business gets in front of it, people get busy, people go on deployments. Um, the guys that were there were doing a great job, but they just didn't have the ass behind it. A master gun shows up, now you got the ass behind it to start making people want to do it. So we were able to accomplish a lot of things, and I was proud of my time there, but I can't I can't tell you that I was not, you know, I wasn't ready to go. I just did. I was ready, man. It it had beat me up.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:44

So at what point in time, because uh this is kind of where um a little we're a little long-winded on this episode, and that's absolutely okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:56

I only get one. That's horse shit. I'm way better than welcome to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:00

Uh no, no. I I honestly I've with recording everything, I think uh I'm just gonna stick everything to one episode. There's so many opinions out there of people just being like, oh, do an hour, oh hey, two hours is too long. And it's like, you know what? Like uh the big thing with Hans Schild's episodes was that uh we had talked about Kubul in one recording. Yeah, and uh I think he had thought about it and I had thought about it, and it was like, you know what, let's break this up and I'll I'll I want to focus on your career so we could talk about that because I think it's important to give the background to the person. But when you're talking about a big event like that, and uh he had talked about it when we first started communicating about you know, talking about Kabul and everything, he was like, dude, I've talked to so many people, I've interviewed so many times and everything. And I and I I could see there's a little exhaustion behind that, but when we actually sat down and it was just like, hey, maybe no military influence, hey, maybe it's not, you know, reporters or news network trying to get a story out. It's me wanting to see everything from his his point of view. Um, he listed the first recording and was like, uh, maybe we should do a second one. It was like, hey, let's do a second one and let's let's deep dive to everything you want to focus on. And I hope we accomplish that. And I hope he feels that that that's what we did for this.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:18

Oh, he'll call me if he doesn't, and he'll be like, hey, where's Walker? We'll we'll string him up by his ears and stuff. No, I and that's that's a good thing. And it does take a lot to talk about that. And you know, I thought he did a great job. I listened to both of those. Uh you know, I listened to the first episode and and hearing him talking, laughing like we are now. It's just I'm just happy that uh I'm happy that he was able to share the story on how he wanted to. And I think you're doing a great job. You do what you want, man. It's your damn podcast. Yeah. Control freaks, that's all we do. Be a control freak. We're being a pussy.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:52

So uh I guess finally putting the paperwork, putting in for retirement. What was what's that like for somebody that maybe never gone through it? Like, how far out do you know you're gonna submit your retirement paperwork to be an accepted?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:06

And then, and then finally being like, hey, this is where I'm going, this is where I'm putting my feet down and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:12

Yeah, I did mine 14 months out. 14 months out, I put it in because I had talked to my family, they they love Japan. You know, my kids love Japan, but you know, I told them I was like, I'm just ready to move on. I think it's time for me to go. I watched, I've trained up so many people, and I've been watching them excel. It was like comforting to know that I trained my replacement. And the goal was to train people to be better than I ever could be, or be a part of that training. And I think we did that with guys like Pyburn and uh and Camp House and some of these other young Marines, you know, they were taking the ball and running, you know, like woo, it you know, went from being timid to now being this data guy who's like super nerdy. We created or helped foster the environment to create and allow these Marines to create a legacy that is going to dwarf ours in so many instances. So I was ready to go. Um, I knew that I had done my due diligence, I put my retirement in. And for a long time I thought I was gonna move back to the Phoenix area and try to get a job at Luke Air Force Base, that way I'd work at Barry Goldwater Range and help do the WTI stuff. Like that was the plan. And I had already talked to him, you know, I already had ins and outs like, hey, if there's a GS spot open, your boy's coming, I'm better than all y'all, you know, all that shit, you know, just giving them shit or whatever. But it was a range control, it's like I could do that for easy money. Uh do my retirement pay, and I think I live comfortably. Uh well, my dad got sick while I was out in Japan. Um, and he ended up getting uh uh some cancer on his throat and uh some other things. Well, he ended up getting a laser doll if it's benign now, which is you know a blessing. But when that happened, you know, I I looked at it like I want my kids to be able to see, you know, their grandparents and get the last little bit of knowledge from them that they can before it's time for them to go. Uh, I want them to be able to have that family environment that they haven't had in my entire career. So I chose to move back to Missouri and I was like, we just buy a house somewhere, and then I started talking to Jake Greening, and he told me, hey, there's a possibility that there's going to be an opening at Columbia. I and it was like it was like everything fell into place. Little do uh do people know that as things start to fall into place, there is somebody out there that's ready to stick a fucking whole stick in your wheel and flip you off that bike, brother. Um I start to try and build a house because you know my wife, my kids want a house, so I start to try to build that. So not only am I doing all the ATC stuff that I do normally on a day-to-day basis, because I tried not to drop my pack, and that was the hardest part. I think I'll say that first before I get into the rest of this. I said, I told my boss, I said, I'm not gonna drop my pack. You got me until the end, I'm working hard. But as I slowly creep towards the end, you know, it was a very bold statement to make at the time. Yeah, but as you start to look at what is required of you outside of the military, that you don't have that safety net of people caring about you, you don't have that safety net of life insurance and and your bills being paid, and you get a BAH and a constant paycheck coming in, you don't know what's going on, right? You have to look finding out where to live, all these things, nobody cares about you more than you, and that stuff takes time, and you have to sacrifice some of the military stuff in order to make that happen. So, as I told him that, yeah, he started getting frustrated with me because I was just like, I gotta go this time because I gotta go to medical. I gotta go this time because I gotta go do this course to get out. I have to go over here to do my Zoom call and my house that I'm building. And he's like, Well, I've been saddled with all this stuff and you're not doing as much. I said, Well, sir, are you gonna pay my bills whenever I get out? I was like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be frustrated. And and he understood, you know, we because we had a pretty good bond. Uh, Jamie Bush, we had a very good bond. He's such a good dude, and he he was a great uh officer to have out there, and I know he's doing well, and uh there's a lot of good stuff that he's got heading his way, but it was frustrating for him because there was a lot of stuff that wasn't getting done as quickly as it normally did, and he would have to do a little bit more while he was getting other taskers from the colonel who didn't really understand our job. Um so he was getting overwhelmed and he's like, you know, I'm pissed off that you aren't doing this. I I was like, Yes, sir, I've never gotten out of the Marine Corps before. I don't know what to tell you. Like, I don't mean to do this. And it actually got me, you know, in my feels a little bit because I felt like I let him down, but at the same time, you know, I wanted him to understand, I don't think you understand how hard it is to pick your family up with all your insurance runs out, your medical, your dental, your life insurance, everything goes away. And the only thing I got is 55% of my base pay for the rest of my life, depending on, you know, because you're still working VA and doing all that other shit. Um, and you don't know if you're gonna have a job. You know, Jake can't guarantee me a job, he can just say there's an opening. I don't know what's going on. So that was that was a very frustrating part of getting out for me, is that I couldn't go balls to the wall and give him 110% anymore. I had to give him 30 and then give myself that 80 if you believe in going over 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:00

Yeah. Well, like you said, like it hey, you've never gotten another Marine Corps before, and there's there's a certain saying, like, and it's like, hey, and it's true to a point, like, hey, you only get out of the military once. Hey, you only retire from the military once, right? Um, and most of the people you're working around have never gotten out or retired because they're obviously still active. Like they're still focused on the day-to-day, and you have to focus on what's next. Right. Um, and it's a scary moment. Like, I for me, I didn't have everything figured figured out. I thought I was gonna weld in North Carolina, I'd already bought in a house. Um, and then I go to my employer that I was welding for at the time, and they're like, I was like, hey, we're gonna talk about full-time pay, right? And they're like, Yeah, we'll give you like a 25 cents raise on$19 an hour. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, okay, I need to figure something out and then figure it out quick. And luckily, I got in, you know, contacts, phone calls about go to New Mexico, and I'm very thankful I did that. But uh it's it's only something that you know how to handle, and it's you there's information out there to help you, but there's nothing to help you out with the stress of figuring it all out.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:14

Yeah, you you hit the nail on the head. I think that that's the most important thing is that there are resources. I had a ton of resources, you keep a good close structure that and and those resources have been phenomenal. VA's been phenomenal, the uh, you know, military one source, all that, all that stuff has been great, but nobody told me, you know, how stressful it was going to be shopping for life insurance. Yeah, you know, like it's and you're doing that, and I'm doing that from overseas, which compounded it a lot.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:44

So it was it was a struggle. I felt I had done something that I hadn't do, I hadn't done in my entire career, and that was not give everything I had to the job. And so it was that was that was emotionally and you know mentally frustrating to me. I had I had such a problem with that because you know how passionate I am about things. I get I'm all about fucking watching the Marines do the shit, and all I could do is I spent the majority of time caring for the personnel that I had and doing as much for them as I could or setting them up with what I could before I left. And I was calling everybody, telling them, hey, I need you to do this. Brady's not gonna be here for another X amount of months. I need you to do this, this, and this. By the time he gets here, that way it's easy for him to transition. Um, and they're like, Well, we need you on this phone call. I'm like, no. And when I said no, like it hurt my soul. You know what I mean? Like, it really did. Um, but I knew that it was time, and and and that was the thing that I knew is the Marine Corps will move on. I, you know, I am I'm Master Guns 1,206. When I leave, Master Guns 1, you know, 207 will show up and they will forget all about me. And that's okay. You know, and I'm good with that, and you got to be comfortable with that. You have to be comfortable with with that portion of it. Um, if you're like me, uh if you're just man like, fuck this place, I'm out of here. 100% VA, you know, whatever people want to fucking say. If you're that guy, cool, man. But I'm telling you, you are going to feel it. And when you do, call your friends. You know, Hanshou kept in contact with me, kept in contact with Casey Chandler, still do with both of them. You know, we we talk. And, you know, Hanshou was telling me, you know, some of the things that he experienced. I'm telling Casey right now some of the things that I experienced. Um, and we all experience differently, but as long as you have that support structure, man, you'll be good. But building a house, finding insurance, making sure that uh dental programs are good, finding jobs, uh, not settling for things, you know, knowing that you are who cares about you. I go to work at Midwest ATC, and we are a great, we are a great tower, we're a great family, we have great time. But, you know, when I I I go there to control, and when I'm done, I'm done. Yeah. You know, we choose, because we're all ex-military guys, and I'm sure you probably experienced the same thing with that if you have ex-military guys, we choose to do the extra stuff. You know, I choose to like, hey, I'll help Jake with this. Hey, Jake, don't don't worry about this. I'll do this training, and then I'll take this so you can go take your break and then do your training. When other people are like, no, you're past your break time, it's my turn.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:49

You know, like no, yeah, it's it's one of those things. Like, I tell my guys all the time, like, hey, my like our tower hours are 7-Eleven. My phone's on 7 to 11. Like, if something happens, call me. That's right. I've got no problem. And if it's something silly, I'll be like, hey man, like, you're a big one. But uh it's just one of those things, and I I I I agree with you. It's just one of those things where understanding characters, and like you said, you know, mate major majority of working with veterans, there's people that do go the extra extra mile and help people each other out. Um I think it's one of the things that's beneficial to the veteran community is that there's a lot of people willing to help us help help help each other out and talk about it and and help somebody and talk, but it's one of the flip side is having somebody that's willing to say, Hey, like what was your experience with this? How what's your suggestion? Um, and things like that too, as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:48

Right. And and that's where I'm at right now. I'm very comfortable with uh where I where I am right now, but it's it's been a struggle, you know. You know, building a house, and that's probably a story for you know, the second episode that you have me on because I'm a multi-guest kind of guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:02

Yeah, I'm I'm actually uh I'm thinking uh I would love to sit down because both uh you and uh do you remember Rosowicks? Zach?

SPEAKER_00 2:05:10

Uh yeah, yeah, I believe so.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:12

So uh he's down in Texas, and I believe both him and wife, both veterans, they built a house, um, bought and sold, and then bought another house uh here in the past couple years. And that'd be a really good episode to sit down and talk about like housing VA options, building options and and stuff like that. Because I mean, even myself, we had a phone call conversation like about three months ago where I was like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this, and I was looking at doing the the VA one-time close, and then all of a sudden they're like, Oh, yeah, the main requirement is from closing to construction completely completed. You have 12 months. And then all the construction guys in our area are like, yeah, we're on a three-month waiting period, and or a three-year waiting period. It's like, well, that loan's not gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:53

Yeah, and it and it's strange, it's strange, right? But I think that's a good episode, you know, because uh my entire career led me to like the point that I'm at right now, which is you know, I'm transitioning myself, trying to become a better father, a better husband, a present father and husband, and also a productive member of society. That's why I stuck with ATC, is because that is I'm still helping somebody. It might be the lorries, the crockies, or the Waltons, but I'm helping them. Um and the biggest thing is, you know, all the stuff after that that we could talk about for probably hours is the steps that which I took to make it happen. I want to be able to, you know, tell people kind of some of the steps that I took and when I started these things, how long it took, and some of the downside to that stuff, because I have experienced downside. Uh building a house is not all sunshine and rainbows. My house is beautiful, I love it. The construction company I'm working with right now is still a pain in my ass. Um, things will be wrong with your house because you have to understand that new construction, and depending on the climate, Missouri uh we can experience every season in about 13 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:12

Yeah, uh that was one of my really, really good examples. He went down to be for built the house down there, and I think like six nine months into like into a new home, they had a pipe burst on the wall. And it's it's like dealing with it's it's a pain in the ass to deal with because then you gotta get a hold of the builder and go through all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:28

Sure, home warranty stuff, you know, going through that is important, and then also going through how you know how we shopped around for life insurance and how you take care of your family and and some of the perks that you get from being retired and or being out and what uh like VA style right now. I'm helping uh Jake with his VA because he's recently had surgery on something that was already rated, but he needed another surgery. So uh sorry to put your business out there, Jake, but we're doing it anyway. Um I'm helping him out to understand some of the things that over the course of my career allowed me to understand really well. And he did five years, got out, did some construction, went ATC. They never told him, you know. So I want I want to be able to give that back. Uh so we're helping him out, and and that's the biggest thing is uh it it gets can it get dark? Yeah, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's gonna be frustrating if anybody thinks of getting out of the military and they're just gonna go fishing. Maybe one out of five people may do that, maybe one out of ten, I don't know, but it if you live in a trailer park next to a lake and you don't have any bills, sure, yeah, you do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:44

But well, all right, man. We're gonna we're gonna wrap this up. I appreciate your time today. I know you got other things to do, and uh we'll look forward to our next episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:52

Hey, already got book for the next episode. Everybody see that? That's how you that's how you network, all right? You do well, they bring you back, all right. Hey, Hanschild, I'm gonna have at least two more minutes than you got. I want you to know that. All right, hey, love you, brother.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:06

Thanks for having me on the change or two.