Iain Lee

Reformed presenter Iain Lee talks Just Between Us about cats and dogs, comedy, cocaine addiction, I’m a Celeb… and his new role as a counsellor.

For more information about Iain go to - https://www.iainlee.com/ https://www.iainleecounselling.com/ 

And listen to his podcast Too Many Cats - https://www.iainlee.com/podcasts 

https://www.jeremy-lee.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-lee-58810199/?originalSubdomain=uk 

https://www.facebook.com/jeremylee_justbetweenus

https://www.instagram.com/jeremylee_justbetweenus

Transcript

Jeremy Lee 0:16

As I keep saying, I'm lucky enough to have worked with the great and the good, the funniest people in the land, and a galaxy of experts. Today I'm with a funny man. No pressure, Ian D. How are you?

Iain Lee 0:31

Okay. Yeah, I'm good. I don't know if I'm funny anymore. I don't know if I was funny back then, but I'm very well. You may see cats running around, and there may be a cat fight in the background. So if you hear anything, that's what it is. I'm very well, Jeremy. How are you?

Jeremy Lee 0:44

I'm fine and intrigued about your cats, but I'm just about to get my first ever dog.

Iain Lee 0:49

Okay, all right.

Jeremy Lee 0:50

Which feels very sort of um because I've always had cats, you see.

Iain Lee 0:54

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 0:54

It feels disloyal to Molly in particular.

Iain Lee 0:58

I can under have you still got cats or have you got not got cats now?

Jeremy Lee 1:01

Sadly, Molly Molly passed away a few years ago, and I I I took it quite hard actually.

Iain Lee 1:06

Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're parts, they're members of the family. I've lost a couple of cats in the last couple of years, and people who don't know pets don't get it, and they say, well, just get another one. I can't just get another one because he was she was a member of my family. She was one of my kids.

Jeremy Lee 1:20

I agree. And I'm, you know, single, which will come as very little surprise to our listener. And, you know, it it's either that or talking to white goods, which even I realise is a bit sort of OTT. My problem is, uh we'll get on with the introduction in a minute. My problem is that I don't yet know, it's coming at the end of this week. I don't yet know whether I'm getting a boy or a girl because the breeders decide on the puppy that they think best suits you. That seems an odd way of choosing a life partner. I mean, their argument is they've spent two months nearly with these creatures.

Iain Lee 2:01

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 2:02

And I've met them for half an hour, so they're our best placed to know.

Iain Lee 2:05

That's their theory. I wonder if it's a bit like when you go to a restaurant and you say, What's what's the special today? And they tell you it's the special because they couldn't get rid of it all week, and they they're doing whatever they can to get it out. I would worry, Jeremy, that would be the same situation with well, your dog is the special, and but it's the one they couldn't they couldn't get rid of.

Jeremy Lee 2:27

I asked for an adjective to describe them when I was just making the final decision, and this wonderfully camp reader thought for a moment and said, Umchalant.

unknown 2:42

Okay.

Jeremy Lee 2:43

And that that immediately conjured up an image of my mind of me turning to the dog and going, um you fancy a walk, and the dog turning back to me and saying, uh, if we have to. You know, that so that's what I'm hoping for. If you know, I'm sure we'll decide to keep that in for the listeners' edification. That wasn't a sudden heart problem. It was, in fact, pouring a large glass of liquid all over my desk. But the desk has been around for a while and be around it will be for a while yet. So let's carry on.

Iain Lee 3:17

It's very exciting. I don't already know. It's very exciting.

Jeremy Lee 3:20

Anyway, I want to tell you, I want to my last thing about this dog because I want to tell you if I take my top off and use it to try and get this liquid off. No, I won't do that. I couldn't possibly do that. So I don't know whether I'm getting a boy or a girl. Yeah. So I've been thinking, because you would, wouldn't you, about a name.

Speaker 2 3:39

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 3:40

Um and thinking about non-binary names. Is that the correct free as usual? Yeah. And I remembered that my late father was called Sydney, which is now quite accepted as a female name.

Iain Lee 3:54

There's I'm trying to think of female. Is there a woman called Sydney Sweeney?

Jeremy Lee 3:58

Is that a woman? Don't go into that level of detail in particular. Okay, sorry. I don't know. I just know that that there are I I think a number of actresses of repute with that name. And my only fear, which you might be able to help me with, is I'm slightly worried about ending up sounding like my mother, who I absolutely adored. Yeah. But but if I go around saying, stop doing that, Sydney. Yes. No, Sydney, that's enough.

Iain Lee 4:28

Am I going to turn into my mother? I think it's inevitable that we turn into our parents. And I think for men it really is we turn into our mother. I think that's an an inevitability, Jeremy. I'm like that with my kids, I'm like that with my cats, I'm like that with myself quite often. So I just I'd embrace it. You think it's a good thing? Uh good or bad, I don't know, but I think it's it happens to all of us at some point.

Jeremy Lee 4:52

Yeah. Oh, turning into one's parents, absolutely.

Iain Lee 4:55

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 4:55

So shall I um shall I carry on with the introduction or should we just should we just leave it there?

Iain Lee 5:00

It's your podcast. You do what you want.

Jeremy Lee 5:02

I'll try and be quiet for a minute. What I'm don't need to be quiet at all. What I'm in the habit of doing there was powder in this liquid in the glass, by the way, which is. It's sounding worse and worse by the moment. Sort of forming little shapes, not completely unlike a competition entry I did as a child for Blue Peter. I remember using Plaster of Paris, that's what it's reminded me of. Anyway. Did you win a blue pita badge for it? No, okay. A blue Peter runners up badge, which I assume they sent to absolutely everybody. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, I have always felt a bit, you know, lost opportunity kind of thing.

Iain Lee 5:38

Yeah, that's it was always the dream to get a blue Peter badge. I think my sister got one actually, to uh have a picture on Take Heart, the Tony Hart show. Oh and the other one was to get a Jimmel Fixer badge, but thank Christ that didn't happen.

Jeremy Lee 5:52

But with you on that.

Iain Lee 5:54

Yeah, exactly.

Jeremy Lee 5:54

My very good friend was on that show. Colin Bennett, who sadly passed away.

Iain Lee 5:59

You knew Colin Bennett.

Jeremy Lee 6:01

I didn't really know him. I I loved him.

Iain Lee 6:03

He was a very, very, very lovely and very funny man. That is fantastic to know because Mr. Bennett, which was the name of the character, and it was him that was it was like the caretaker character on Tony Hart. I remember being a kid, very, very young, and watching him bumbling. He was a bumbler. And just at the age of eight, thinking, doesn't get any funnier than this. Watching Mr. Bennett and thinking, nah, it doesn't get any funnier than this. Oh, he was great. That was fairly read with the last six months he died? Six months a year, something like that.

Jeremy Lee 6:35

Okay, okay.

Iain Lee 6:36

Well, I'm sorry for your loss.

Jeremy Lee 6:38

He was great. So many strange things with Colin over the years. He was my go-to actor. When a corporate client wanted something weird. The last thing I remember him doing to me was playing playing George III. I think so. Um in a concoction that he had created and cast and costumed and everything. At the Banqueting Ball, where King Charles was hung up to dry. For the American Bar Association. How weird. Colin's son is doing very well. He um he was the lead in the only fools and horses thing in the West End.

Iain Lee 7:20

Was he really?

Jeremy Lee 7:21

Oh, that's lovely. That's lovely to know.

Iain Lee 7:24

How fantastic. How did you know him? Obviously, you've known Colin, you knew Colin for years. How did you meet him? Well, um, doesn't that look disgusting? For the listener, he's honestly he's not stopped moving. The fag is down, and he's now desperately, frantically wiping a table. No, come on, tush, sush. I there's nothing frantic about it.

Jeremy Lee 7:44

It's very nonchalant, like the dog. Exactly. Practicing for Sydney. I can't remember how I met him. But you know, you meet a lot of talent over the years, don't you?

Speaker 2 7:54

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 7:54

I imagine I first met him. How's this for a segue? You might want to take notes.

Speaker 2 7:59

Yes.

Jeremy Lee 7:59

I imagine I first met him round about the time you were growing up in Slough. Oh, gosh. Maybe a bit later. That's before you started out as a stand-up. Yeah. And then shall I carry on? You carry on, go on. This is fascinating. How much do you know about me? This is terrifying. I'm doing the biogue thing. Yeah. Well before you became first a correspondent and co-host on Channel 4's 11 o'clock show, which I watched a clip of last night.

Iain Lee 8:26

Okay.

Jeremy Lee 8:27

And um it just was extraordinary. I'm really interested in how I say we collectively, people got on got away with things then.

Iain Lee 8:37

Yeah. Yeah. I've been watching a few clips from the 11 o'clock show because I'm planning actually this week to go out and try and record some new Vox pop, some street interviews. And some of the stuff, the two things that I've seen this week that absolutely shocked me. I've got kids who are 15 and 13, and I've become cool again because of this. One was we did a Vox pop outside Borough Market in London about the IRA, and it ended with me holding a homemade bomb and asking people to diffuse it. They're going, which wire do I cut? I said, I don't know, you choose. And when whenever they cut a wire, I would would shout boo at them and they would jump. So I'm there with a bomb. And another one I saw yesterday was me, hidden camera, going up to people in the street with a gun and saying, Could you do me a favor and hide this gun for me? I don't want to get arrested. I mean, so that was 1998-99, and I showed it to my kids, and my kids were shocked. And they said, What would happen if you did that now? And I said, Well, at the very best, I would get tasered. I would quite probably be fatally shot. And it was, I look back and you can say, Well, it was different times. I don't know how I could walk around with a fake bomb and a gun in 1999 in London. It seems um seems wild, but I was 24, I guess, and fearless. And it's like, yeah, okay, we're gonna we're gonna try and get people to hide a gun for me, which is nuts.

Jeremy Lee 10:05

But what I am interested in actually, sort of from a comedic perspective, is uh the notion of causing offense, yeah, which quite a lot of comedy kind of has to do, and I understand the difference between punching up and punching down.

Speaker 2 10:21

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 10:22

But if you remove the ability for a comedian to cause any offense to anyone, we're not a particularly good place, or are we?

Iain Lee 10:34

It's interesting, it's different context. My first ever corporate gig was for you. My sister was working with you. Oh, I remember Joe. Yeah. And my first ever corporate gig was a gig for you. And I it was um, oh, I can't rem I I know where it was, I can't. Anyway, and I think you may have been there. And at half time I did my thing and I and I came off. My sister went, well, it's going very, very well. But um, Jeremy said, could you could you stop swearing? Oh, I would never have said that. Oh, okay. Well, someone did. Maybe it wasn't you, maybe it wasn't you, maybe someone issued that instruction. And at the time I thought, um, how dare they? But looking back, yeah, it was a nice corporate event. Those people didn't want to hear me effing and jeffing. I get it. The thing of if of offense is a difficult one to put my finger on. And I like to think, well, no, I think you should be able to offend people with comedy until I hear something that offends me. And then my reaction is, oh no, that's gone too far. That's gone too far. So I don't know what the rules are.

Jeremy Lee 11:38

I mean, the rule always used to be, you know, you're in control, you can switch off or leave the room or do whatever. By the way, the reason I would never have said tell him not to swear is because that's I'm not talking about you now, but that is typically red rag to an artist's book. Yeah. So I would always have said something like, might have done a bit better if he didn't swear so much. Yeah. I I would never have issued an instruction because I absolutely know that it wouldn't just have been ignored. Yeah. It would have fanned whatever.

Iain Lee 12:13

Yes. There's a story, I can't remember his name, but there is a story of a very famous comedian being issued that instruction at a corporate, and he went back out and tripled the effort he put into swearing. The offense thing is, do you know what, Jeremy? I try not to think about it too much because it makes my head go round. But for example, if I was, I'm gonna go out and record some silly Vox Pops on Friday and ask people silly questions. Now, if I were to ask questions that involve, for example, the N-word, right? If someone could make a funny sentence involving that word, I'm not saying I could or would, but that's offensive, but some people might find it funny. So is that okay?

Jeremy Lee 12:53

My pompous answer to that is just because it's difficult very often knowing where to draw the line, yeah, doesn't mean to say that a line shouldn't be drawn somewhere.

Speaker 2 13:05

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 13:05

So the pendulum argument has it that the line has been drawn in completely the wrong place. Right. In an ideal world, which we both know, as does our listener, that we don't inhabit, all these kind of things will be up to the individual's discretion. And pretty much everything would be. Except can we trust people to use their discretion wisely? Immediate and obvious answer, no.

Iain Lee 13:34

No.

Jeremy Lee 13:35

So yes, there have to be rules to varying degrees, and lines have to be drawn. I mean I completely agree with you that that's become a gratuitously offensive word and should not generally be used. But you know, Jewish gags, okay? I'm not gonna start telling Jewish gags. Okay, but I like Jewish gags, they happen to make me laugh. I'm Jewish, blah blah blah blah blah. So I can tell a Jewish gag, but somebody else can't. Yeah. And I think that's a bit silly.

Iain Lee 14:14

Okay, well, I wouldn't, I'm not Jewish. I wouldn't tell a Jewish gag, I wouldn't tell an Irish gag. I mean, someone will now go on the internet and find an example of me doing it years ago. Well done, great. Possibly. But I certainly wouldn't now because it feels like it's not my right to do it. Okay, well let's let's go off on a slight tangent. I was sexually abused as a kid, right? And I have done, I've told jokes about what happened to me, right? And I'm allowed to tell those jokes about what happened to me because it happened to me. I would suggest you're not allowed to tell those jokes about what happened to me because it's not your lived experience. So I think there does have to be some kind of some people can stake more of a claim to certain jokes. So how would you feel? And I'm not I'm not going to if I kind of told you three Jewish jokes back to back now, how would that feel to you?

Jeremy Lee 15:08

That honestly would depend entirely on whether or not I found them funny. Okay. There isn't the slightest grain of a possibility of me being offended.

Iain Lee 15:20

Okay. But could you understand how someone else who is Jewish might be offended?

Jeremy Lee 15:25

You've absolutely got to the point.

Iain Lee 15:27

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 15:28

With enormous difficulty. Because I think they would know from the context in which it was told that it wasn't intended to be offensive. It it would possibly be picking up on a stereotype, which is the source of so much comedy, obviously. Yeah. And you know, okay, it might be pejorative in some sense, but I think that Jewish people should, and this is interesting, in most cases are perfectly happy to laugh at themselves and think, you know, he's she's taking the piss out of such and such.

Iain Lee 16:09

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 16:09

There's a gag that I won't tell about I don't know, somebody arriving at a friend's house and being in given instructions on what to do when he arrives at the house. It's all to do with pressing the bell with his left elbow. Getting dangerously close to telling it. So all these instructions involving parts of his body before he actually gets into the house. And he says, Well, why? You know, why are you telling me to do all these strange things? To which the answer is, Well, you're not going to come empty-handed, are you? Now, that is built on some kind of stereotype. Okay. Yeah. But I honestly don't see where the offense is. I think it's warm and lovely.

Iain Lee 16:48

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 16:49

So I guess the question is, could it be told without any reference at all to Jewishness? And it could. Yeah. Let's draw a line there. Okay. I always thought, by the way, that people really shouldn't talk about Cody. It's very dull. So apologies. Let's let's move on to um let's move on to radio.

Iain Lee 17:08

Yes.

Jeremy Lee 17:09

Because you really made your name on radio. And long list of, you know, XFM, LBC, Absolute, BBC Three Counties, you won awards. Yeah. You built a huge following. Yes, sir. And then you disappeared from each of those places.

Iain Lee 17:32

Yes, I did. So what's the story morning, whatever? What's the pan? Okay, so I got I so I I did a little bit of radio before TV. Then TV happened and I had three, four, five years of being very, very busy, and then that dried up. But it was the early 2000s when radio stations were signing people who'd been on TV because a lot of radio station bosses thought, oh, they're good on TV, they'll be good on the radio. Most people weren't. I got my first gig at LBC in 2003. I was still trying to get trying to get clean from drugs, so I did do a few shows there off my face, but that's by the by. And I was okay. I was okay. But the the person that was running the radio station, a guy called David Lloyd, could see there was something underneath my okay-ishness that was worth persevering. And he basically took me under his wing. He's a delightful, potty old radio geek, and I love him for it. And he took me under his wing, and along with someone else called Scott Solder, but he and he would make suggestions and nudge me into doing things slightly differently and let me make mistakes and let me libel someone on air once. And he kind of shaped me into. Do you know what, Jeremy? I think I was okay at tele. I think for a lot of radio, I was really, really good on it. You know, and that I that's something new that I'm able to say because I've always thought, oh, it's a bit arrogant. I think I was quite I think I was really good in some things. And a lot of that came from David Lloyd. I hosted the drive time show on LBC. Imagine that now. I don't know who does it. I don't know if it's Ian Dale or someone like that. Very serious Tom Snorbrick. Snorbrick. Okay, yeah, a very serious kind of straight newsy show. I was on there playing hide and seek with the listeners, building dens, asking which Beetle you'd have a fight with, inviting the listeners to come in the studio and take over. And it was wild. And it was such a blessing, such a privilege to be able to work there. And I will say this, and I know he is listening to this because he's part of your team. I genuinely think that, and I've said it to his face, the greatest British radio host, it's not Terry Wogan, it's not any of the it's Clive Bull. Clive Bull is, I think, without a shadow of doubt, the most versatile radio host. He kind of invented late night phone ins the the way it is. He can do a really straight show about war and about immigration. He can do When I was there doing my surreal stuff, he kind of shifted into doing that and not only kept up with me, he was he was quite some way ahead of me doing this weird stuff. And never forget, we pretended that we fell out with each other. Classic radio trope. Uh someone phoned him up and said, Oh, here you've fallen out with Ian Lee. He said, Oh, no, no, it's okay. We've buried the hatchet. And they went, Oh, that's good. He said, No, we've literally he came round to my house with a hatchet, we dug a hole in the garden and we buried it. And I just thought, that's genius, man. That's genius to paint that image. So I also learned a lot from Clive, and I I don't want to embarrass him too much, but there you go. And it would get to a point on each station where I no longer fitted in with what they wanted to do. Generally, it was a change in management. Whenever a change in management came in, I would quite often have to go and justify my show and explain it, and then I'd be out. When LBC got taken over, there was an awful human being that became my boss. Just awful, one of the worst people I've ever met in my life, and I quit. But a lot of the other places, yeah, new management came in and I got the boot. And the last proper radio gig was talk radio, and I got kicked from that. Kicked, it makes it sound like I got fired. There was only ever fired from two radio stations, XFM and BBC Three Counties. A lot of the time they just don't renew your contract. You come out of the studio and the program controller says, Well, thanks very much. That was your last show. And you go home, and they don't tell you before you go in because they think you're gonna go F this place and screw these people, and I'm gonna go over to Capital, come and listen to me there. So yeah, you walk out, you get a handshake and a pat on the back, and and all of your stuff is in a cardboard box. The last one was Talk Radio, June the 8th, 200 2020. So during COVID, I'd literally just won an award for the best radio moment of the year, and I got a phone call from my agent saying they don't want you to go back. And it's sad, but it I learned to accept it eventually with grace, you know. And I did a talk, I emailed three bosses, Scott, Liam, and Denny. And after the anger kind of subsided, I sent them all an email saying thank you very much for the opportunity for feeding my kids for four years. I had a great time. And I think that's kind of a way to I I I I in the past I would have kicked off and it doesn't do anything. I'm grateful that they they paid me for four years.

Jeremy Lee 22:30

Can I talk about that moment for which you won that particular gold award? Because it is extraordinary for people who haven't heard the story. You were faced with a caller who well, you tell us the story, but in an extreme situation.

Iain Lee 22:46

Okay, it was it's a late-night show, 10 till one, talk radio, and it was again it was a very, very silly show, but occasionally we would talk about mental health and addiction and things like that. So 10 till 1 is always my favorite slot in radio, late night, because it's when the lonely, it's when the vulnerable, it's when the weird decide to pick up a phone and call a radio station. It's not a normal thing for a human being to do. But we'd created this space where silliness occurred and sometimes mental health stuff. And we had a guy phoned up, a guy called Chris, and he said, I've taken an overdose, I'm outside, I don't know where I am, and I'm dying. The first thing you kind of think, oh, okay, well, let's let's chat to this guy. But it was clear he was in very serious distress. Catherine Boyle, who was the producer at the time, went out and sat by the phone and dialed 999. I kept this guy on air because I had to get him to describe what he could see. He was outside, it was Portsmouth, I think, or Plymouth, Plymouth maybe. And he described what he saw, and eventually two callers phoned in and said, I know exactly where he is. Catherine phones the police, the ambulance, and I kept him online for half an hour, on air, just talking to him. He went quiet for seven minutes, and I thought, shoot, he's dead. Then he kind of came back, and after 30 minutes, the police picked up the phone and said, We're here, we've got him, thanks very much. And they went. I spoke to him a few days later that he survived. He died, they took him to ICU and he died, and they resuscitated him. So it was it was real, it was genuine, it was serious. It was uh it was horrific, you know, and it it won an award in this weird, mixed-up, messed up industry where people go, Oh, it's great, it's great radio, which I suppose it was, but yes, it was horrific, I'll be honest, Jeremy. I mean it's very upsetting.

Jeremy Lee 24:33

What was happening during that seven minutes? Were you talking? Because you got you can't have radio silence for seven minutes.

Iain Lee 24:39

I was talking. I now work as a counsellor and a therapist, and that was the call that made me think for the first time, what could I have done differently if I'd had some training? Because I didn't have any training. And for those seven minutes, I can't remember exactly what we talked about. I know what I talked about. I know at some point I ran out of stuff to say. It was near Christmas, so I asked him what his favourite diehard movies were. Could he rank them in order? It's not the greatest thing to be saying to someone who's taken it out. What's your favourite diehard movie? And as soon as it left my mouth, I thought, that's this is totally inappropriate, but we're in. So, what did I talk about in the seven minutes? I don't know. I've never listened back, but it was a lot of it was inane waffle. I probably asked him what his what his views were on the Beatles. That's always a go-to for me. It was just chatting, chatting, chatting, and yeah, it was seven minutes of talking. I thought he was dead. At that point, I thought he's dead. I'm talking to a dead man.

Jeremy Lee 25:38

There's something really almost cinematic about that story.

Iain Lee 25:43

You can hear my cat, one of my cats is shouting in the background, so I'm going to shut that door. Okay, sorry.

Jeremy Lee 25:48

Oh. Sorry, that's completely thrown me off.

Iain Lee 25:50

Something cinematic you were saying.

Jeremy Lee 25:52

Well, I mean, yes, there is, because you could imagine that being recreated for dramatic purposes. You could imagine that fitting into some kind of TV or film because it is so dramatic. And you referred to it before about the idea of lonely people or people on their own, including the lonely. And I talked a lot to Clive about the relationship between presenter and audience in that context. And it's like being thrown in, it is being thrown in to an extraordinarily intense situation with a complete stranger. And I guess what you're saying is, what you're saying you didn't have any training at it, nobody other than a trained negotiator or counsellor or medic would know what to say. But that's when you know we discover what impulses we have, what you know, what we've got inside us, which has never been tested in that way. You talked about moving, I do want to come back to some pure showbiz stuff, but you talked about becoming a counselor. When you were correctly lauding Clive or effectively reinventing himself so many times. Well, yours is one of the most black and white examples of reinvention that I can think of. I mean, you're going to tell me there are crossovers between being a radio and telepresenter and being a counsellor, but it's an extreme switch.

Iain Lee 27:34

It is an extreme switch. Of course, there are similarities. The main thing I had to learn to do. When I was a radio presenter, I was kind of paid per word, you know, and I would talk and talk and talk and talk. And the thing I had to learn to do working as a counsellor was to shut up. It was it was to shut up. I don't have to respond to everything. I don't have to say, oh, that reminds me of what happened to me. To shut up and listen. So talk came to talk radio came to an end in July 2020. And for the first time in 20 years, Jeremy, the phone didn't ring. The phone had always rung before. When a job had ended, there was always another one waiting for me. And it didn't ring for the first time. And it was terrifying and it was humbling and it was humiliating. And it was all of those things. And as it became more and more apparent that the phone wasn't gonna ring, I started to panic. I thought, well, what else can I do? There was a point very, very because it was during lockdowns and stuff, there was a point very seriously when I was considering going into Tesco with a CV and saying, Have you got any jobs? I'm not joking, you know. I I I was lucky I had some savings, but I could see those running out, and I've got kids and I got a mortgage, and I had considered counselling after that phone call, which I think was maybe two or three years before. And I mentioned, I just tweeted it, thinking of becoming a counsellor. What's the process? And a lovely woman called Annabelle Giles, who died a couple of years ago, got in touch. Now she was a very famous television presenter in the 90s and the early 2000s. I think she did the jungle as well. And I didn't know her at all, never met her, but I was aware of her. And several years ago, she made the decision to go from broadcasting to being a counsellor. She saw my tweet, she DM'd me her phone number and said, I did it. If you want to talk about how to do it, then give me a call. And I gave her a phone call and she changed my life. She said, This is how I did it. These people that trained me have just set up their own college. They're brilliant. Why don't you give them a call? That was probably in July. And by September, the end of September, I was sat in a classroom learning. So I owe Annabelle a lot. And she she she was so helpful for me, to me throughout my time at college. She ended up being one of the lecturers there for a bit. And when she died, it was it was the saddest thing. It was so sad because she was so beautiful, beautiful human being in a spirit and a soul. And so that's that's how I did it. I took the diploma. I I now work pretty much full-time as a counselor. I see people on Zoom, I see people on the sofa behind me, and I work with all kinds of you know, trauma and child sexual abuse and addiction and anxiety and depression, and it's it's a great privilege.

Jeremy Lee 30:23

And it sounds a little bit like a silly question, but uh how many people who come to I don't know what do you call them clients or places?

Iain Lee 30:31

I say clients, yeah.

Jeremy Lee 30:32

Okay. How many of them come to you in the part because you're who you are, because you're famous?

Iain Lee 30:39

That's an excellent question. I've been doing it professionally since 22. 22 or 23? Anyway, two or three years. And at the start, you know, I would tweet, I'm working as a counsellor, and the paper or the online papers, the mail, and the they would pick it up, a former I'm a celebrity contestant, blah blah blah. So that would get me a lot of inquiries. So at the start, I think, yes, people knew who I was. I would always have a little 15-minute chat with them before we decided to work together, and I'd find out what they wanted, what they were looking for, and also what they knew about me. And I think I've turned two people away because they were perhaps a bit of a fan, and that would be inappropriate. And I've said, look, I don't think it's appropriate. We work together. Here's someone I really recommend if you want to do this. So at the start, people were aware of kind of knew who I was. The new clients I get now, most of them don't know. Some know I've been on the TV, some have heard me doing podcasts like this is great because someone will listen to this and go, Oh, I identify with him. I've had a few people that have heard me on like Adam Buxton's podcast or Chatterbix or something like that, and they've got in touch. So it's interesting. The people that kind of get in touch with me now don't tend not to know.

Jeremy Lee 32:00

You don't cover it up. I mean, that you know, there's a link on your own website to the counselling. And you couldn't cover it up, could you? Unless you change your name.

Iain Lee 32:08

I did consider it. Lee isn't my birth name, it's my legal name now. My full name now, because Lee was my middle name, it was Ian Lee Rugby. And I dropped the rugby and I didn't have middle names. And about five years ago, I said to my boys, Boys, one of your Christmas presents, you can come up with my new middle names and I will change it by deed poll. So my full name now is Ian Felix Diamond Lee. Thank you to my children. I did consider it. I did consider going back to my birth name. I did worry it would be a problem, and then I thought, well, no, you're right, I can't hide my past. And my past is out there, you know. I would talk about addiction, I would talk about infidelity, I would talk about all of this stuff on the shows. So people can find out anything they want about me. So if someone comes to me and they do know a bit, they do know I was in the jungle or they did watch the 11 o'clock show, I do a thing where I can say, right, let's have 20 minutes if you want. You can ask me anything you want about my previous career. If there's anything that's bugging you, anything you're curious about, you want to ask me, let's get that out of the way. So that can be put to one side, and then we can carry on with the work that you need to do to improve your life. It never lasts 20 minutes. Most people don't have a question. A few people will say, What was Ali G like? The one I get last most is when you're an I'm a celebrity, is it really like that? Or do you get beds and food and stuff like that?

Jeremy Lee 33:25

Well, I was going to ask exactly that question. No, it wasn't.

Iain Lee 33:29

It is really like that. It's bloody horrible, but you get paid very, very well, so I'm not going to complain. So that's how I deal with it. And it has not been the issue that I thought it might be, actually.

Jeremy Lee 33:39

This is not a totally irrelevant tangent. I have tennis elbow, weirdly, not having played tennis since then. But well. And I now see an osteopath, and during the course of looking for one, I discovered, and you'll probably know this, that a bloke called Mark Lester.

Iain Lee 33:55

Oh.

Jeremy Lee 33:55

Now practices as an osteopath.

Iain Lee 33:57

I didn't I I know the name, I didn't know that, yeah.

Jeremy Lee 34:00

I had a crush on Mark Lester. I was, oh, I've no idea, ten, perhaps, when he played Oliver in that fabulous movie, the first Oscar-winning Ron Moody, Oliver Reed, Harry Seacum, etc. etc. Oliver Lee, you know, says, Can I have more, sir? Unusually deep voice for that issue. And I absolutely idolized him. But there's something in me which would love to have my tennis elbow treated by this person I used to have a crush on, because it just has a sort of circularity to it. Unfortunately, he practices in the West Country, otherwise I would. I get it, that it's not an issue. And when you detected that it might be, you steer people in another direction. Okay, let's talk about addiction. Okay.

Speaker 2 34:47

Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 34:48

Because I just before this, for my own let's call it amusement, I wrote down things which I know I'm addicted to.

Iain Lee 34:56

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 34:56

Fags, obviously, chocolate, shopping. Yeah. And phone ins. Okay. Also, I wrote down auctions, but I think I'm making progress getting over that. So either shopping, phone-ins, or chocolate. Choose one of those. I'm very aware of the fact that I'm not now employing you as a counsellor. Don't take it too far. But what can you do for me?

Iain Lee 35:18

Well, let's talk about the shopping. Where w what kind of stuff are you buying? How much are you spending?

Jeremy Lee 35:23

I'm buying things I persuade myself I need, but really know that I don't. Yeah. With the whole online thing, spending can be, well, easily into the hundreds. I pounce on any excuse. So I I might have told you I'm getting a dog. Did I mention that?

Iain Lee 35:41

You've mentioned you're getting a nonchalant dog, yes.

Jeremy Lee 35:43

So what do dogs need? Well, goodness me. You need dog blankets, you need something to put in the car. Oh, look, they've got these dispensers for those plastic bags you have to use to pick up their mess. And that is just the tip of the dog shopping list, most of which is due to arrive this week. Today, I had a pen built for the dog. Obviously, I have a crate. Yeah. So there you go. How do I deal with it?

Iain Lee 36:08

Well, I I would suggest that some of that spending there is slightly different because you are getting someone who's going to come and live with you and is going to be a huge part of your life for probably the next 15 years. You can go on to make them comfortable.

Jeremy Lee 36:19

Okay, move on from the dog. That doesn't apply to shopping generally or chocolate.

Iain Lee 36:23

No, that feels that feels a little bit different, the stuff with the dog, because there is a purpose to it. If you are buying stuff and spending significant amounts of money on things that you hope are going to fix you or change your life, or when you click order, go, this is it. This is the one thing. Once I've got this, I won't need to buy anything else because this is this really is it. And then it arrives, and maybe you don't even open the box. You just sit there and go, nah, that's not it. Or maybe you open it and use it for a few weeks and get very, very bored. Then there's potentially an issue there. Now it could be any number of things. It could be ADHD. You know, a lot of neurodivergent people spend stuff and on hobbies and things they think are going to change their lives and then they don't. It could be the, you know, as a child, I'm not Freudian, but as a child, you were denied certain things or you were punished by having things removed, and now as an adult who is who has their own money, you can kind of reward yourself and fix what happened to you as a kid. Quite often addictions are there to stop us feeling stuff. You know, more obvious with with alcohol and drugs, but also buying stuff can it can stop us feeling things. Don't want to feel sad and I don't want to feel lonely, so I'm gonna push it down with something, and that's gonna be that's gonna be everything for this dog. That's gonna be cocaine, that's gonna be mountaineering, which is gonna be my new favorite hobby. It's quite often to stop us feeling things. And when we stop acting out on those addictions, when we don't spend stuff, when we don't drink excessive amounts, there's a great line in recovery. The good thing about stopping drinking is we get our feelings back. The bad thing about stopping drinking is we get our feelings back. And a lot of addictions are there to control, suppress, ignore painful feelings. And the same with with food, you know, food food addiction kind of gets sneered at and laughed at. I've seen people in AA meetings laugh at food addiction. But if you can't control it, if it's out of control and it is making you unhappy or unhealthy, or you know, you're eating lots of chocolate and at the end going, I hate myself, I feel physically sick, and I'm never gonna do that again. And then next day you're doing the same thing, then yeah, that's an addiction and a behavior that could could do with some looking at and some adjusting and finding out what is behind that.

Jeremy Lee 38:51

So you're saying it's not about chocolate, it's about something else.

Iain Lee 38:55

Yeah, the thing is the symptom. For me, it was cocaine. Man, I loved cocaine. But cocaine was the symptom, wasn't the problem. And once cocaine was taken out of it, I could look at what was behind that and look at the problem behind that. And what was the problem? I had low self-esteem, I hated myself, I was angry with my dad, I'd been abused by the scouts, I had a weird relationship with my mum. So there's all these things. Generally, it comes down to low self-esteem and self-loathing. That's that's kind of quite often the base.

Jeremy Lee 39:26

I'm taking that in.

Iain Lee 39:27

It may make sense to you, it may not connect on any level. I'm not saying that these things apply to you necessarily, but for me, that's my relationship with addiction, and it's what I hear a lot of the time with people sat opposite me, and I say I go to narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous. It's what I hear a lot in the rooms. Of course, there will be other reasons for people doing these things.

Jeremy Lee 39:49

Here's another segue completely um I love it. Unpremeditated. When you went into the jungle, yes, did you talk to Ant? I think it was. Ant, wasn't it, who had drink and drug problems that everybody knew about? He did, didn't he?

Iain Lee 40:05

I'm trying to work out where it was in terms of his public story. Had he been off for a year? I don't remember. But you don't know, you don't really get to see Ant and Deck very much at all. The only times you see them is when you're doing a challenge and you'll get taken somewhere. They used to drive you in a blacked-out van, and when you came out of the van, they put a towel over your head. And if there were more than one of you, you'd have your arms on the shoulder of the person in front, and they would lead you to wherever the task was. They wouldn't let you see. And then you'd be standing behind a bush and they'd say, Right, when I tap you on the shoulder, you're going to walk through that gap in the bush. Ant and Dek will be on the left and they'll take over. You get a tap on the shoulder as soon as you walk through the bush, you're on TV. They're filming. So no, I didn't get to speak to Ant and Dek very much. What I will say about Ant, because the stuff that was in the papers is really, really difficult getting clean, right? And getting sober. Whatever is really, really difficult. And I started going to meetings when I was fairly famous. And it was horrible. I'd walk in and think everyone's looking at me, and some people were. So I had nothing but sympathy and empathy for Anne because he was doing it in public. And yeah, he you know, he got done for drink driving. That's awful. Again, you know, nothing but love for the there was a family involved, and I think there was some injuries. He was doing his recovery in public. And my story, when I started, it took me 13 months before I got clean. And I would go and I would relapse and I'd go and I would relapse. Okay. He was doing all of that in front of the world. And I cannot imagine, I don't know, Ann, apart from you know what was there, I can't imagine what that was like for him. And there have been other celebrities who've done it in public. He was one of the biggest stars in the country at the time, and he was on the front page. And that will just fuel the shame and the self-loathing. Yeah, that must have been tough. But in NA meetings, it sounds like a made-up story. It's not you see everyone. I remember being in a meeting and sat next to me on the left-hand side was one of the biggest rock stars in the world. Literally there. And the guy on my right was a homeless person. And I thought, this is it. This sums it up. It doesn't divide by class or money or anything like that. That for me perfectly summed up what addiction is. It'll get you, man. If you're predisposed to becoming an addict, it will get you. And if you're lucky, it won't kill you.

Jeremy Lee 42:36

Moving on, there was a certain amount of press at the time about bullying and whatever else goes on inside the television jungle. Was any of it true?

Iain Lee 42:48

Yeah. There were people in there that were assholes. You know, they were horrible, horrible people in there. There were some lovely people. Jenny McAlpine, Fizz from Coronation Street, Kez, Shapi, Shaparatko Sandy, they were delightful. But yeah, and I've I have no problems naming them. It was Jamie Lomas, Dennis Wise, Amir Khan, and Vardy. Was it Rebecca Vardi? They were vile to me. Absolutely vile to me. Horrible, horrible people.

Jeremy Lee 43:11

What about, because I admit to looking up before talking to you this afternoon.

Iain Lee 43:14

Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 43:15

Who was in there? Stanley Johnson. Stanley Johnson you haven't mentioned yet.

Iain Lee 43:19

How do you find Stanley? I thought he was obnoxious, entitled. You're now going to say he's a friend of yours, but I would say I thought he was obnoxious. I thought he was entitled, arrogant, rude, dismissive, and nearly everyone else fell in love with him. It was like they had to use that phrase, they had drunk the Kool-Aid. And I'm standing there going, he's naked. The Emperor has got no clothes on. And they're all going, That's a fantastic suit you're wearing, Stanley. I did not like him at all. There we go. I think I've said enough about Stanley Johnson. Horrible.

Jeremy Lee 43:52

I don't really know Stanley, but I did represent two of his sons.

Speaker 2 43:56

Yep.

Jeremy Lee 43:56

One of them is one of the nicest, gentlest, most supportive, most self-effacing, most erudite, most wonderful person you could ever happen to meet.

Iain Lee 44:12

And I think I might have met him because one of his sons came out, and I can't remember his name, but was absolutely delightful and charming. So it may be the same person, I don't know.

Jeremy Lee 44:22

We're talking, dear listener, of a man called Leo Johnson.

Iain Lee 44:26

Leo, yeah.

Jeremy Lee 44:27

Who is works in the city but is an environmentalist, and he seriously contemplated accepting an invitation from the Greens to stand several elections ago in Norwich and is chalk and cheese, which is kind of interesting, I think. This idea of inheriting habits and tendencies and whatever from one's parents.

Iain Lee 44:53

Well, I think there's there is often a child will go the exact opposite way of their parents and do the opposite. I think that's fairly common. Yeah, I think it was Leo I met in Australia. Didn't spend much time with him. Yeah, he was lovely. My si again, Joe, my sister, spent some time with him and said he was absolutely delightful.

Jeremy Lee 45:11

So okay, you didn't like everything about I'm a celebrity.

Iain Lee 45:16

Yes.

Jeremy Lee 45:17

And you did it for the cash, basically.

Iain Lee 45:19

Well for three reasons. One, I was doing a late-night radio show that wasn't being advertised and no one was listening to it. So I thought if I stand in front of 15 million people, we might get a few listeners. Did it for the money, because I was getting divorced and I needed some money for a deposit on a house, this house I'm in now. And the other reason is my kids would have been eight and six and they had never seen me on the television. And I thought, what a great opportunity to show them what I used to do on the biggest entertainment show in the country. And yeah, so it was in part primarily money and also for Alex and Kim to see me getting covered in spiders and snakes and stuff like that. And of course they loved it. They loved it.

Jeremy Lee 45:59

You see, I sorry, I'm telling you another story which is not really apropos this store, but I once tried to persuade a an exceedingly well-known client to do a well-known dance-based reality show. Okay, yes. And this client was talked out of it by his wife and children on the grounds that it would cause them embarrassment. Which is the complete opposite of what you've just said. Isn't that fascinating?

Iain Lee 46:30

Yeah. Yeah, there were some people in my family that didn't want me to do it because it would be embarrassing, but that voice wasn't loud enough. Yeah, I can understand that. I'd love to do strictly. Oh my god, yeah, I would love it. I would be terrible at it, but I would absolutely love it. I think that is such a great show. But I can understand that. I've turned down jobs because family members would have found it embarrassing or whatever. And was it the right thing to do? Yeah, it was the right thing to do at the time. Yeah.

Jeremy Lee 46:58

I've just looked at the watch. I've been rambling on for ages.

Iain Lee 47:01

Have we started? I thought this was just the the the the pre-chat. We've pressed recording.

Jeremy Lee 47:05

Obviously, we are we are gonna start a minute. I still haven't done the bloody introduction. If there were one thing, I mean, you're now a professional counsellor. Yes. But you also do podcasts which are not about counselling. And do you still do the Patreon?

Iain Lee 47:20

I do Patreon with who I mentioned earlier on, Catherine Boyle, who I was her presenter, she was my producer. We are now several years later, we're now dating, you know, she's my partner. So yeah, I do I do Patreon, which is a great little way to pay your favourite musician or creator directly. Yeah, and I do a show with Catherine every Friday, which is great.

Jeremy Lee 47:40

And our listener can find that anywhere easily by Googling. Putting your name into a search engine. Okay, so this is the final question, okay? Go on. The phone rings, yeah, or just vibrates in your pocket, whichever I don't know how to change the setting on my and it's an offer to do something on tele or radio, or let's say film. Yep. In your well, not in your wildest dreams, because this is clearly perfectly possible. But what offer would bring the biggest smile to your face?

Iain Lee 48:18

It wouldn't be radio. I don't want to do radio. I've done radio and I can't imagine. You know, if someone came and said, right, we want you to do two shows a week and it's a thousand pounds a show. Well, yeah, okay, I'll do it. But I radio does not interest me at all. I don't listen to radio, it's it's changed. A movie would be great. I've been in one movie with Angelina Jolie and Clive Owen, and it's bloody awful. And my bit is terrible in it's like a tiny little scene. I'd love to do a movie. It's funny you ask that question, Jeremy, because I have thought, supposing I was offered Big Brother, and again, that would be a big check. That would be tens of thousands of pounds. Could I put the counselling on hold for a month, six weeks to go off and do it? So that's a kind of little mind game I play sometimes. I have decided in the last couple of weeks I would like to do some more television. It feels like I've got unfinished business there. I miss sitting in the green room talking to Rusty Lee or whoever else is in there. I miss sitting in the makeup chair, having your makeup. I miss having an earpiece in. I miss I miss that. So I am consciously and actively see if I can get any TV work, see if there's anything out there. There may not be, but I'm kind of enjoying the chase. The great joy of working for myself with counselling is I get to decide when I work. I get to decide how many clients I see per week, per day, and how I do that. If an interesting TV offer came up, I would certainly be very seriously considering it. Yeah. But that's not me saying counselling is second best. Counseling is my job at the moment. I love it. The privilege of having someone sat opposite me telling me stuff they have never told anyone else, that's amazing. But yeah, if a TV gig came up, I would give it very serious consideration. But not radio, I'm done with radio.

Jeremy Lee 50:03

Well, if I hear anything, I'll let you know. But that idea of hearing stuff you wouldn't normally hear. Yeah. Is kind of what I'm looking to do with this podcast. Okay. So in a very different way, I think I get it. And I'm out of chocolate, so I'm not gonna go and buy some now because I have that willpower. Have I cured you? Well, I'll let you know, and be nice to think you have. And we can use that as a sort of dry run for fags, maybe. But anyway, enough. Yes. Not that we've had enough of you, Ian Lee. Thank you. Thank you for sparing your time. I'm pretty touched, actually.

Iain Lee 50:40

Well, I'm thrilled. I'm still thrilled that 52 people are interested in anything I have to say, you know. So I'm and of course I'm very, very aware of who you are and your legacy. And I'm thrilled to be asked, Jeremy. So thank you very much. Hopefully, someone will have got something out of this conversation.

Jeremy Lee 50:57

Let's hope so. And they'll find a way of making us know. Thank you, Ian. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Iain Lee 51:04

Thank you very much.