Shappi Khorsandi

Shappi Khorsandi opens up about relatives in Iran, breaking into male-dominated stand-up, and learning to be a psychotherapist.

https://shappi.co.uk/

https://www.jeremy-lee.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-lee-58810199/?originalSubdomain=uk 

https://www.facebook.com/jeremylee_justbetweenus

https://www.instagram.com/jeremylee_justbetweenus

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome back. What a pleasure it is to be sat here today with the inimitable Shapi Korsandi. Comedian, author, advocate, parent. Actually, do you know what? Before we go any further, I've just walked down the stairs to this basement studio for the first time. And I was having really odd I've been here before thoughts. And do you know what it was? This is true. In the mid-80s, I and a mate of mine called Tom wanted to start a comedy club on this exact site.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Wow, and here we are.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Which was then a sort of Tex-Mex restaurant called Break for the Border.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I rem Oh, is this Break for the Border?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

I I reckon this is the building. Just run the story up for what was the story very late. It was open late.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I might have seen you in there back in the day in the 90s.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Quite possible. We were going to call it Tom and Jerry's, which is kind of obvious. And I don't know what happened. They said no. Hey.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I remember we'd always go Break for the Border? Like you know you're in trouble if you're going to break for the Border back in the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

That's when it all started.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I know this place because a lot of comedians have parties here. So as I came down the stairs, it was very strange that that lovely green room wasn't piled up with coats.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Because it's always a and I didn't even know this room was here. Oh no, no, I've been in here. What am I talking about? I did Sarah Pasco's podcast in here, I think. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We're here now.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

It's the place to be here. You missed something off your list. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I am now a full-time student.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

We will come to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I can't believe I want the sticker. I was like, he's not going to say I'm a student or a keen cyclist.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

I thought we'd have, you know, about forty-five seconds on comedy and then about two hours on hypnotherapy and stuff. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I lied just now when I said keen cyclist. I'm actually thinking of selling my bike.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

I can't help you there.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Scared of roads.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Okay. Well, we can come back to that one.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

We're gonna have to.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Hypnotherapy. I got this.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Why hypnotherapy?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Oh sorry. Is it psychotherapy? So I don't know why. It's because everybody tells me to go for hypnotherapy to stop smoking.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

I was going to say something really creepy there and go, it's is it because my eyes are mesmeric?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah. It's exactly that. And I'm glad I didn't say that out loud. I've got this slightly annoying habit of wanting to start sort of skipping through somebody's life. Sure. So just for the tiny number of people in Kazakhstan or actually somebody said recently we're getting quite big in Belgium, which I'm very proud about.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

That's where Stromay's from.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Where what?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Where one of my son's favourite artists, Stromay. Stromay. Okay. And I've been listening to him obsessively because I like to keep up with my children's music as a way of making them like me.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yeah. I mean I'm not a parent, but I that might not work. But let's not go there. Instead, I want to tell our listener. That you and your family fled to this country after the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979. And it might have been, according to my notes, because your father wrote satirical poetry mocking the regime. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yes, that is true.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

So you came here and you were granted asylum, thank goodness. And given protection by the Metropolitan Police.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, that was later. That was in the eighties, because Scotland Yard uncovered a plot to assassinate my dad. It wasn't just that he wrote a few poems, he was very, very famous. Okay. He was a very famous journalist and satirist and was a huge voice of the left back then who wanted revolution and now, you know, living to see the horrors that that brought.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

We might come back to that briefly.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

I mean, there's nothing I like talking about more really than the traumas of my people for yeah. Well let's go.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Let's give ahead because well, I just want to say that you told the story of being a child refugee. Yeah. Both in a theatre show and in what are known as childhood memoirs, which I read, but it was quite a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

It was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Called A Beginner's Guide to Acting English.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Wasn't my idea that title.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I was just going to say it's a fabulous title.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Oh, okay. Well, I it was my idea that title.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Good. We'll keep that in. Now, since those early days, you have appeared. I've looked at the list, I mean I didn't really get to the end of it. But you've appeared on a galaxy of TV staples. Zeike, McIntyre's Comedy, Roadshow, Mock the Week, Have I Got News, QI. And of course, Pointless Celebrities.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Which I won.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Did you?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

I won it, yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Okay. Proud at the top?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

One of the occasions, yes, very proud. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Sorry, one of the occasions. How many times did you lose?

SPEAKER_01 5:25

I think I've done it three times, and the first time I did it, I did had no idea of the rules. I rarely know what's going on when I'm booked for things. And and then after I've done them a few times, if I'm allowed to do them a few times, it becomes clear. I didn't understand the point of pointless. I didn't I got all excited when I thought of the most obvious answer.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

And would blurt it out.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Have you still got the trophy?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Of course I have. It it keeps my it keeps it sits on my bin lid. Because I've got a new cat, a rescue cat, and he scavenges as animals do when they've experienced real hunger. And I've got one of those bins that if you touch it, it opens and he just keeps going in the bin. So I've had to put my pointless In fact, my son did it because he thought that would that would be funny. And he put it on the bin. So that's where it lives now on my bin.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

It is funny. You have also I'm still on your very long list of credits. You've also sat around the table on Question Time.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Which is interesting. And Radio 4 comedy corridor stuff like Just a Minute. And your own series of Shappy Talk.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Enjoy that?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Have I? Did I? Shappy Talk. Yeah. Did I? Was that on Radio 4?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Again. Oh, my memory's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So is mine. Should we just stop here? So no, I'm going to plough through because I want to tell our Belgian listener that you've written a brace of novels. Yes. Nina Is Not Okay. And last year Kissing Emma for young adults.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, that was tough. I'm never doing that again. A young adult book. This thing, right? Here's my problem, Jeremy. I do so many things and I say yes to so many things without knowing the spec. It's not that my brain goes, I should investigate this or I'm not going to bother investigating this. My brain goes, you know this. So my brain went young adult, that is 16 to 24. And so I wrote this book that had such gruesome sex in it, and I sent it to the publishers, and they're so polite in publishing, so much more polite than in comedy. They said, Do you think that the sex could be implied rather than splayed out quite so graphically? Turns out young adults is like 11 to like 15.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Oh, I didn't know that. I'm surprised nobody told you, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Writing a book was I think people assume that when I meet other people, other writers, other comics, I'm learning how thorough they are. For example, so many comics, most comics, everyone but me, when they go on tour, they check ticket sales.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

I don't. I just turn up. Like a comic friend goes, Oh, well, I've only sold this many for this gig. So I've been talking to my agent. I'm like, really? How do you know? Why do you care? Why are you a millionaire and I'm not? So is that the reason? Maybe that's why. I just go live my life minute to minute, but not in necessarily like a cool, fun way.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

But the phrase blissful ignorance is coming to my mind.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

I don't know. Do you know once I said yes to a gig in Norway? I thought it was a gig. They said panel show. Panel. I assumed it was a panel show gig in Norway. When I got there, I found out that it was a very serious panel discussion in front of about 3,000 people.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

In Norwegian?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

No, in English, thankfully. And it was about democracy. And it was me, Sasha Navalnaya, daughter of Alexei Navalny, Alistair Campbell, and the former head of MI6.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Which one?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I loved it. Dear Love. No, not Dear Love. Lovely man.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Younger.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Younger. And I wondered if the whoever booked me muddled me up with Shami Chakrabati or something. I sat there while Sasha Navalnaya, this brilliant twenty-two-year-old young woman, talked about her incredibly wonderful, brilliant father and the trauma they'd suffered under Putin. And I'm I'm just sat there like a potato. It was fine in the end. Of course it was.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I took one of the most hated figures in this country. Having started the sentence, I'm gonna have to tell you that. Nigel Farage. Oh, sorry. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Sorry if Nigel Farage is listening, I'm really not sorry.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

He won't be because he's banned from listening. From the opposite perspective, John Burko. I took John to Milan to do a chat show which was in Italian. And John didn't and doesn't speak a word of Italian. And I cannot believe how relaxed he was. Because the whole thing he had an earpiece in with simultaneous translation. And he made it work, and the crowd went crazy. Sorry, there's a bit of a cul-de-sat note story. But the point is doing English answers as he was for a non-English audience, they do that kind of thing. We don't. We don't have Norwegians and Italians come over here and talk in their native language.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Well, no, I mean you see it on the TV all the time, don't you? Coming over here without a word of English, and very few of us have very few words in other languages. It's uh I think that's part of English culture that needs to change. Because it wasn't always like that. It was expected to have a second language at some point in our history. But you know, what with colonization and all that malarkey, um it became the main language, and it is not the case anymore in terms of the economy.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Oh that. We're not going to talk about the economy today.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Sorry, I'm I have a son who is studying politics, and I find myself, he'll just come down and go, Mommy, what do you think about the bloody blah de blah blah blah? And I have to Google everything he talks about, so I'm not like a dum-dum. So I know very little about a lot of things to do with the economy.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

You should flip that on its head and just look up a few phrases.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Like Keynesian.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I know about Keynesian Keynesian, this and that. I'll give you another one. Toss in the phrase creative destruction.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Right. Yes, we talked about that the other day. In psychotherapy, we have creative indifference.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

We're just about to get to psychotherapy. Okay, sorry, sorry. Honestly, you've got to stay on a track for these Belgians. You know, they're they're very linear.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

With these Jeremies means Exactly. So well, I'm there now. After these novels, you then actually this might be the wrong this is the wrong order. But having been diagnosed with ADHD in your forties it's hard to believe you're any older now, but you are. Having been diagnosed, you decided to write about that and your life through the prism of having been diagnosed with another brilliant title called Scatter Brain. I choose that title. Yeah, no, I thought you were going to say that. And having done that, you are now training to be a psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I am a gestalt psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

That's the intro. Brilliant. Sometimes we haven't got much time for any more after the intro, but I think we can squeeze a bit in. I want to start at the beginning of your story. I want to start an Iran, if I may. Because it feels sort of topical.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yes, I can see why you would say that.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

From what you've just said about your family background, I presume you're not one of those who wants the Shah's son to come back, are you?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Oh listen, I would have Basil Brush there.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Basil Brush is dead.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

No. Yes, true. Oh, why? Why just blurt that out?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Derek Folds didn't look after him well in his old age. I know, I'm sorry. You'll find cheap copies all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

This is like a real roll bristle here.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

I'm we can talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

You've got your memories. No, it is, I agree. I I mean I was watching.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

I met Reza Pallavy when my son was three. So I don't know what eighteen minus three is, but that many years ago. This is your son who's doing a maths A-level today. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Okay, he probably knows.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

It was fifteen years ago. My dad said, Uh Reza Pallavi is in London and he's invited me to have a cup of tea at the Dorchester. Would you like to come? I was like, Yes, I do, and can I bring my baby boy? And he went, Yeah, so we went along to meet him. And you know, my dad's the old foe. And they met and he got my son a hot chocolate. And my dad and he chatted, and my dad said, Why have you, you know, summoned me? He goes, Look, I just want to talk. I want to talk to people from all walks. I want to let bygones be bygones. And when the time comes and we are able to go back to Iran, I want us to be unified. And then as we left, he said to my dad, You see, we can be friends. And my dad said, Of course we can, until you're in power. And then we'll be Tom and Jerry again. And that's what I want. I want a leader in Iran that if you criticize them, you won't get hanged.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Seems reasonable.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

It's not a big ask, is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

No.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

No. So I don't live in Iran, so I'm not going to get into the nitty, you know, into deep about what I want or what I think is right for Iran. But if he's the person that will go to Iran and create a democracy, just as long as you can criticize without being killed or flogged or lose your job or be shunned or have to go into exile, I'm all for it. I don't live there.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Have you still got family in Iran?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Oh gosh, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Do you talk to them yes?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yes, finally, after a because there was an internet blackout for months and months and months, and I knew my cousin's children are young. You know, they're in their late teens and twenties, so I knew they'd be out in the protests, and that was hell, not knowing how they all were. It was the most isolating thing. And, you know, that was really difficult because the left said nothing about the death of the protesters. Nothing. Nothing. Deafening silence. And then they were very vocal when America started bombing Iran. And it was a very uh difficult place to be as a left-winger. I'm very adrift politically at the moment. But then in other ways it really grows my awareness in that I think, gosh, when have I had blind spots? When have I not spoken up for people because it doesn't align with my bigger picture values? You know, I think the way around all of this stuff for me is just looking at myself and my reactions to it and where I've been ignorant, where I've lacked awareness, where I've lacked empathy. Because empathy is a job. If you ever spend time with a toddler, they don't always have natural empathy. So empathy is something as humans we have to really go and find in ourselves. Because all humans are capable of dehumanising other humans. And we have to be aware that none of us are immune to that. None of us. Thank you very much for listening.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Oh, Belgium's going wild about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

I think um Belgium can be a very, very complicated place.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Complicated, but largely flat. One last question about Iran. Because I haven't had the opportunity to ask anybody as closely connected as you are who knows what the answer is going to be. What do you think the Iranian people thought what went through their heads when Trump said we have your backs?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

You said that with such certainty that I will know the answer, but I can only speak for myself and I can speak for to an extent for my family in Iran that I've just been speaking to. I can tell you that when they were slaughtering the protesters, it was so demanding, it has left an indelible mark of agony on all of us. We were like, please save them. There was that. And then it hasn't happened. So now it's very different, the feeling. I honestly thought in my naivety that America would go in, it will be short and sweet, and Reza Palevi would be there. And then that didn't happen. So I and they, more than me, feel between a rock and a hard place now. Right. Because now all the factories have been bombed, people don't have jobs now because they can't work in the factories. So people are suffering extreme economic hardship. There's rubble and wreckage and death all around now, and no change in sight. So there we are. But in that moment, yeah. After the protesters, while the protesters are being killed, what choice do we have but go, yes, someone have our backs, because Lord knows the left here don't. So yeah, it's really difficult. It's difficult to talk about without feeling emotional. Well, no, no, I feel emotional without sort of screaming. Yeah, it's really hard. It's been a very, very hard time. It is a really hard time. And the fact that there's no end in sight, it's pretty sad.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

I'm now gonna do a rather p ridiculous gear change.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I love ridiculous gear changes.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

And and I want to ask you about the some would say equally serious subject of stand-up. Yes. Because I'm a bit confused. I don't know, that's completely the wrong word. Ignorant is a better word. About you decided to go into stand-up, not least because at that time it was so male dominated. I mean, so I'm like I don't know, 98% of acts on the circuit were male. Yeah. So why did you, brackets from your background though that might not be relevant, close brackets, say, I'm gonna go onto a stage and make people laugh?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Well, Doctor, it was my absolute dream. I felt like an outsider who wouldn't Who are these people that feel like insiders? That's what I'd like to know.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Well, I've met a number of them. In fact, you dropped somebody's name earlier on. Alistair Campbell would consider himself I mean, okay, so maybe psychologically he won't always have thought that actually. Yeah. But knows beyond doubt that he is an insider.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

And walk into a room and yeah. Yeah. So I had a lot of confusion as a kid. Like my home life was so different. Like my dad was this big famous poet outside of school. I was like a Nepo baby, but without portfolio. And then in school, I was like, you know, little brown kid, and there's, you know, racism's rubbish, isn't it? And all of that kind of stuff. And then I watched Saturday Night Live, Ben Elton, Ritmail, and I'd loved like any kind of comedy on telly. Didn't really get the jokes of the old sort of more traditional comics, but the fact they were standing on a stage, I absolutely love Billy Connolly. I think he was probably my first love. But Saturday Night Live, that lot, because they were young, because they spoke in my language. I desperately wanted to be part of that world that they lived in. And I imagine it was the same with punk. Because comedy's not punk now. It's not underground like it was back in the 80s. I mean, it can't be because it's become so mainstream. And back then you could be poor and live in London. Um there were squats to live in, there was housing benefit. So you've got a lot of broken souls on the comedy circuit, which I love. But now people are so much more together, the young comics that I've met, and they're brilliant, but they're a different texture to the ones that I came up with. But I've got to say, that thing about being a woman, it was so hard. But at the time, I didn't think about it. I just plowed on. Who could I talk to? There was no one to talk to. The shutting up, don't get me wrong, there were also incredible, wonderful, supportive people there, of course. Otherwise, I wouldn't have survived. But when I walk into like comedy parties now and I see all the women and they're all on what WhatsApp groups and they're all supportive and they have friends. I didn't have friends. I had no friends.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Isn't that sort of part of the comedian stereotype, isn't it? Not to have any friends, to live in a garret and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I was reading Harry Hill's autobiography, and he talked about these incredible friendships that he made in comedy and they all came up together. And I was reading another autobiography today and the friendships. And I think, but they were all blokes. They were all these like big beery blokes when I did it. And I was 24 and there was no friendship to be had.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Harry wasn't beery.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Oh, but he was way ahead of me. I'd I never worked the clubs with Harry Hill.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And then you know, it's me as well. I couldn't say boo to a goose. I was socially so behind myself.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

That for me is the most interesting thing because you couldn't say boo to a goose and you go out and do one of the things which most people would find among the most frightening things they can possibly imagine. That's the odd thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, that's like people who are scared of heights becoming bass jumpers. I think stand-up comedy, obviously, when you do long form and you're doing your own shows, there's a real craft to it. But back in the boozy club days, it was like doing a bungee jump. I think it was much closer to extreme sports.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Do you remember any of your early material?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Oh, absolutely. My name's Shappy. It rhymes with crappy. So I had a great time at school. I mean, that was it. I mean, arguably that I mean, come on. I think some of the booings were deserved. It was an adrenalinine hit. It was when I felt alive and I felt seen and it was a second chance of the playground and I wanted to be famous. And that's really sad. Isn't that sad? Because neither of my children have any desire to be famous. And when I talked to my son about it, because I said, You're so funny. You could be a writer, you could be an amazing comic. And he went, No, because I like myself.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Wow. You have to wonder what else he's picked up over the years.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yeah. And it's interesting because once I got my ADHD diagnosis and once I started a journey of healing. It's very difficult to say that when you're British, to say two words, journey and healing. My journey of healing. Because we're still quite bashful about not being American. Or not being full of anxiety and self-hate and trying to rid ourselves of that. That whole desire to be famous, I understand it now, and it doesn't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

You mean you don't have it anymore?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I don't have it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Because it exists all around us.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Oh yeah. Oh of course it exists. Oh my goodness, yeah. But for me, it doesn't. And I think had I got help much, much earlier for my ADHD and anxiety and all of that, I think I would have been a massive fan of stand-up comedy, but perhaps done something else that really nourished my soul, but didn't involve all the travelling, all the booze.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

You say that, but it would have been such a loss to the world of comedy.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

You don't know that. I might have found a cure for hay fever.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

What? Given a choice, that would have been time better spent. I think. No, no, no, I'm with you completely. I was talking to on another podcast actually recently. About stereotypes in comedy. I think this bit was cut, by the way. I think he found my comments too far. But I was trying to argue, because I believe it, that we need stereotypes. I mean comedy needs stereotypes. It trades off stereotypes. That's how we kind of recognize one another. And it's not about ban all stereotypes, it's about understanding what is and what isn't acceptable. When you're doing stand-up, you don't say, oh my god, that's a stereotype of X. I mustn't say that because it suggests they're all like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

I think we all have our own personal boundaries around that kind of thing, according to our values. But no, I'm just thinking about what you said. And yeah, I think you're right. And there's some comics that probably regard themselves as very on point with their political correctness, but we'll massively stereotype someone out on the reform marches in a really negative way as a figure of fun. And I remember watching someone do that recently, and I thought to myself, there's a lot more there to explore. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot more there because those marches are so huge now, and voting for reform or saying that certain opinions about reform are so normalized now that instead of stereotyping them, I think it's much more interesting to have a curiosity about what's going on for those people, right? And yeah, so they are now stereotyped. They are the ones stereotyped, but it's a stereotype that is palatable to us because they are punching down also. They are blaming immigrants for their woes. So yeah, that does happen, I guess. I'm just trying to think of my own. I said I I talk so much about myself, I don't think I've got time to stereotype anyone.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

All right then.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I tried to sound really wise then. Did you notice? I don't know if it came across as wise, but I was mostly trying to grapple with what you were saying because I hadn't really considered it deeply before.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

I think it sounded wise. It's very difficult for me to say that without sounding patronized. So should we should we just both back off?

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I mean, don't get me wrong. Like I I'm not thing is, what people don't understand, a lot of the people a lot of comics that go, oh, you can't say this anymore, when they want to stereotype people of colour or they want to stereotype gay people, which as I I pause then because my younger friends don't say gay, they say queer. And that's still tricky for me because that used to be such a slur. But some people go, you can't say anything about gay people anymore, you can't say anything da-da-da, you can't say anything anymore. And I think they don't understand that stand-up comedy reflects culture. And it's not that you can't say it, you can, but no one finds it funny anymore because our culture's moved on. We've progressed, and it's a moving iceberg. So if you don't move with the times, Bobby Davre, people aren't gonna go with what you're saying. So I don't know why I picked him.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

What's he ever done to you?

SPEAKER_01 28:32

He told me you can't say this, you can't say that.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Inocuous play. Some would argue. I think you've just made exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

See, I stereotype Bobby Davre.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

A little bit.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah. I was stuck in an airport with him once. I have yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter. You can edit this out or leave it. You know, I don't care anymore. We're all gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Well, Bobby might care.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Does he live in Belgium?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Not yet. Okay. That's where comics go to die. No, I won't go there.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

You know, knowing me, I've got the name wrong. And it wasn't even Bobby Davre that I was stuck in an airport with.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

It was Jimmy Bloody Cricket.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

It was someone else. Yes. I've got into a right muddle again.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

We'll be very diplomatic when his representatives make contact. Okay. And we'll, you know, we'll reach some kind of conclusion. Well, feeling as though it's what we've been doing for the last however long. It does feel like time to talk about psychotherapy. Okay. I've written all of my notes, I've written psycho, and I just remembered why I'd written psycho. So look, there you are. I don't know whether this coincides exactly, but it's probably more or less right. You're on I'm a celeb, with among other people, another of our Just Between Us guests, Ian Lee.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Who has also decided to become a psychotherapist, which is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Interesting that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Kind of interesting about I'm a celeb.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

But why? Oh gosh, right. There are lots of reasons I could give, and I've been thinking about this a lot. First thing, I will say I've always wanted to go back and do another degree with the head I have now, but I probably thought it would be in English or history or something. I loved seeing Eddie. Oh gosh, not Eddie is hard. Oh I love seeing Lenny Henry go back and and study. Um he went off and studied English. And I thought, oh, what an amazing thing to do. Like, oh god, I wish I was so rich that I could just go back to university and not worry about it. And then when I hit 50, I kind of thought, now or never. I had a therapist that changed my life and really supported me. And I did a a short course in psychotherapy, that all the different modalities, and I fell in love with gestalt psychotherapy. I have um aunt who's the same age as me. She trained as a psychotherapist, and I had found in the five years that she trained, I just wanted to ask her everything. I just found it really, really fascinating. But I think what it was for me, one of the things my aunt said to me was, it changes you. And I kept hearing this thing that if you train to be a psychotherapist, it's like having therapy on crack. Like you get turned inside out and you change as a person. And I wanted that. I really wanted that. And I have it, and I realize I don't change. You go back to the you before all the shit. You know, it's it's a really exciting process, and there's 14 people in my class, and we've been together for three years now, we've got two more years to go.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Are they all stand-ups?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

All of them are stand-ups. It was weird when I went in, like I was so bashful about the fact that I'm a stand-up, and I realized that I had quite a lot of shame around it because everyone there is like a genius, and there's people that are in my class that already like PhDs and all of this, and actually working some stuff out and facing my worst fears in that group with everyone and having massive ruptures and then learning to repair them and learning to find safety in repairing ruptures. But I didn't know how to do that before that. I just had no idea. I used to flee, either flee or have catastrophe, but I'll never be bored of it. It's like it's the only thing apart from stand-up that I have found that I will never tire of. And I realized that the reason is the common denominator is is they're both about people. They're both about a curiosity of other people. That's what stand-up is. It gives the illusion of being very self-obsessed, but that self-obsession is in contact with other people. So I think it's the same curiosity, but with psychotherapy, it's on a deeper level, like so deep. The connection that you make is so deep.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

And when you're just talking to anybody, when you're having a casual conversation, you know, in the back of a cab or anywhere. Do you now think differently to how you used to think? So are you effectively psychoanalysing everybody and everybody's reaction to every question?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I am, but not theirs, my own. So that's what I've noticed. I go, oh, that makes me feel like this. How do I feel right now with what this person's saying? What impact is it having on me and really noticing my own feelings?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Can you switch that off?

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Well, it's a practice, and I think it's something that anyone who has had therapy can relate to this. If you've had like a strong therapeutic relationship with someone, hopefully, if it's gone as it should, everyone gets to a point where you notice your reactions to things and you're able to regulate yourself in the moment in a way that was really difficult in in the first place, which is what often leads people to therapy. I don't take things personally. I think that's the biggest change, is I don't take things personally. Socially, it's been so different because I used to be very sensitive, I used to be very hurt, I used to be quite reactive. And now I'm not. And now if people have dicks, I just walk away instead of going out with them. I no longer sleep with people who aren't nice to me.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

You see, and you should have listened to whoever told you that in the first place. Do you call them patients or clients? Clients. Who do you think your perfect client is gonna be? Who are you really looking forward to charging to giving them therapy?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I already have clients.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, and they're all my perfect clients. Do you do what Ruby does and have them round to your house and No, Ruby does something very different and very brilliant and interesting. I'm slightly obsessed with Ruby. She was another inspiration. I used to go to the Priory Clinic. I used to live right next door to it, actually. And I used to go there for my 12-step group. And I saw all these posters like Ruby Wax doing a gig there. This is years ago. And I think that's where it started to sort of start to percolate that you can leave not leave this profession, but it can be in tandem with another passion. You know, for me was that. And I was so fascinated. I don't think I would ever get rid of enough dog hairs in my house to actually have people over. And Ruby, I don't think she does one-to-one psychotherapy. That's what I'm really into.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Okay, so your ideal client?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

My ideal client is um someone who turns up week after week.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah. And if they don't turn up, they let me know within 48 hours. I don't get paid yet, I hasten to add. So when what you do as a trainee is that you work in a placement, so the placement is normally a charity. This is very important for people to know. So many people say I can't get therapy, it's too expensive. It is expensive, but there are certain charities like Mind, let's start with Mind, some aspects of the NHS, where they take on trainees, the way Vidal Sassoon takes on trainees, and you go for an eight-pound haircut that would normally cost you £100, whatever. So you might pay five, ten, twelve pounds an hour for a therapist, and that money goes to the charity, the therapist doesn't get paid. And I tell you, I would trust my nearest and dearest with any of my colleagues in my class, my cohort. Because when you're a trainee, I've got two supervisors, we write essays on what we're doing. We do not muck around with the theory, we are in it. We listen back to every session. With permission, we record them. And with a trainee, you're with someone who really wants to learn and will leave no stone unturned. So if anyone listening thinks they can't afford therapy, I would strongly suggest going to look at placements where they have trainees.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Aaron Ross Powell I think that's really interesting advice. I'm thinking of going back to therapy. It's a long time since I've had any. I used to say that I only went because he needed money.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Well you know what I tell people it's like? It's um I was talking to this guy and he was quite buff. And he was like, Well, what do you think I need therapy? And I said, Well, look, do you go to the gym? He goes, Oh yeah, I'll go to the gym. I was like, okay, it's it's the gym for your emotions. That's it. It's not like anything more than that. No matter how much you don't want to go to the gym, even if you feel shit after your session, you know it's doing you good, right? So that's what it's like with therapy. You've got to walk through the pain barrier.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Well, given a choice between gym and therapy, I know which I choose.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

You should go to the gym with your therapist. I bet they do that in America.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, I bet they do. Look, we have to round this up, which is such a great shame, because I actually want to carry on talking to you for a long time. I have this annoying habit sometimes of ending up with quick fire questions.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Which are kind of one-word answers. Yes. So oh first one's so easy. So easy.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Ten sixty-six.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Actually, you're just the year out, but I'll let you have it. Who or what makes you laugh?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Everything. Pretty much everything makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Okay. What's your biggest vice?

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Binge eating I was gonna say binge eating biscuits, but actually it could be nectarines. Yeah, I'd say that's a vice. Or an addiction. Addiction's a vice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So it can be. That's something to ask your your group if they might have an interesting idea.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, it is something I struggle with, yeah. Do you know what I a big vice of mine is buying nonsense late at night when I can't sleep.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Oh, been there, done it.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Pink sofa.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Well, not pink sofa, but I've actually my two favourite late night, middle of the night can't sleep purchases. They have something very odd in common. One is a thing for a pizza oven. Oh right, yeah. Which when I got it, I realized that I didn't actually have enough space between the oven and the island thing to use it. But I've since had it chopped down. And the other this is the weird thing. Doctor. The other is a snow shovel.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Because we need that in this country. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

So I mean What made you buy that? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it was a price thing, maybe it was a sweeping and cleaning thing. But you're you're talking to somebody who has a very unusual reason for always getting excited when it snows. Yeah. Because I'm bloody prepared. Talking of which, my last question to you. Yes. I will get criticism for this. Arguably it's a bit sort of self-indulgent. Can you find me a wife?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I can't find myself a wife, let alone you.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

I say it because you and I had this conversation a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

A long time ago. Tell you what, you find me a husband, I'll find your wife. But I have to be very specific about my husband.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

You think I don't?

SPEAKER_01 40:49

I'll find you a wife. It's tricky, isn't it? What do you like? What do you need? What do you know what your needs are?

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Unfortunately, our listeners have lives.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

They do have lives too.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

So shall we come back to this off-air, as it were?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Can I ask you a question for you to ask me?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Can you ask me, Shapy, when are you going to write a play?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Oh yes. Okay. Just out of the blue. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Actually, there's one question I desperately wanted to ask you, Shappy. I'm so pleased I've just remembered.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

When are you going to write a play?

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Funny she say that. I'm um I'm currently writing my first play. No. Yes. And I'm taking it to the Edinburgh Festival this August. And it's called Kismet.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

But you're still writing it.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yes, I know. There we are. That's my process. That's my process.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

That's Kismet, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

And where can people see it?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

They can see it at Summer Halls in Edinburgh, just by the meadows, between the 6th and the 16th of August. And I have to say it is a work in progress in Edinburgh, too. So I'm writing it now, and we will be performing it for the first time in Edinburgh and changing it every day as we go.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Wow. And is it, as the title suggests, a musical?

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Yeah. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Well, yes, it is, because the the person I'm that's a crucial thing to decide one way or the other and just go for it.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

The person I'm writing it with is a musician. Oh. And she is writing music for it. And she is my cousin, who is a performance artist in New York. And we are playing two sisters with a 20-year age gap who meet as adults. Because it's Kismet.

unknown 42:23

There we are.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Well, I'll be there.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Thank you. You and half of Belgium.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And well, yeah, maybe. You never know. And we'll sort out each other's.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

I don't think you want to wipe.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

I so do. Come on, music, please. Can we please have that bloody outro music? Start it.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

That was great. That was so fun.