Doris Rose

Special episode. With glorious wit my 105-year old aunt reminisces about refusing to learn Yiddish, and partying with American GIs.  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Today's a very special day on Just Between Us. I'm sat here with my lovely Aunt Doris, who won't mind me telling you that she's a hundred and five years old. You don't mind, do you? Not at all. Because people often mention it, don't they? Yes. Like every conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

It is the whole topic of conversation. Do you know who that is? Doris. Fame at last.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Well, let me start. I'm gonna start with another question. Yeah. That you're gonna be asked the whole time. I'm sure I've asked you before. So you're 105. What's your secret of a long life? My only secret is drink a lot of water.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

And you've always done that? Yes. A few odd spots. I might have had a glass of wine.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Fair enough. Yeah. I think that helps too, personally. Yeah. And then there's the whole thing about the genes. So you were born in 1920. Correct. And I I've looked it up. It was the year the Metropolitan Police replaced their horses with cars, and they called it the Flying Squad.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

It was the year that First World War rationing ended. And it was the year that fifty-three thousand people turned up to watch a women's football match in Liverpool. You know women's football is all the rage now. Well, in those days, 105 years ago, they would fill a stadium with people to watch a women's football match. That was amazing. Isn't it just? And there's more. In 1920, America introduced prohibition. And this is my favorite one. The UK recorded its highest ever number of births. In the year you were born, 1.1 million babies were born in this country. Good gracious. And do you know last year, 2025, there were only 630,000. So the year you were born, there were almost twice as many babies. That's unbelievable. Yeah. Anyway, look, I'm gonna take you back. So just imagine the sort of waves coming over you. You grew up with your parents, and obviously they were my grandparents, so I wouldn't never have used their first names. But they were Millie, more formally Millicent, and Harry. And Harry, correct. And you grew up in, and correct my pronunciation if I got it wrong, you grew up in Evering Road, in Clapton, in London's East End. Yes. And it was a relatively new residential development because there were brickfields on that. And you might not know this, but it's now a conservation area.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Really?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yep. I have to break this to you because I believe in being honest about these things. They don't yet have a blue plaque outside your house. But they should do, shouldn't they? I think so. It'd be only right. No, I agree with you. So tell me, what do you remember about well first of all, what do you remember about the family? Your parents. And life when you were a little child, brought up at home.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Was your mum disciplined or would she allow you a bit of um my mum was lovely thinkers? I resented the fact that when I was four years old she had my brother. Yeah. Yes, because he became the favourite. I was my dad's favourite. Oh right. Yes. And my brother was my mother's favourite. My brother could do no wrong.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

And I could do no right. I'm bound to defend the baby who turned out to be my father. Yeah. You once told me that when he was a baby, so this is mid-1920s, you used to pinch his nose, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Well, in fact, I resented him because he had lovely long eyelashes. So I used to go and pinch his nose instead. I do remember that distinctly. I'm sure he deserved it.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

I'm sure he did. So your mother, Millie, wasn't a disciplinarian. She was everything you'd expect, a loving mother. Yes. And she do you know, I just about remember her cooking. So presumably you had delicious home cooked kosher food, presumably.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Unfortunately, I don't take after her.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

What did she used to give you to eat?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

What was a typical family dinner? Potatoes. I remember potatoes, a bit of chopped liver. I was a poor eater. Yeah, if I don't like that, I used to say don't want that. Don't like it. But my brother was my mum's favourite because he always ate everything. Oh typical except fish.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Do you know what? One of the things he told me later when I came along about the Jewish delicacy of gefilter fish. I must have asked him what they were. And he convinced me that although they were clearly ball shaped and fried, he used to persuade me that they swam around like that with little slices of carrots on their back. I don't remember that. Yeah, no, he was naughty. He convinced me of a lot of things that weren't a hundred percent true. So you were your dad's favourite, this is Harry. Just explain one thing to me. Why was virtually every male in our family called Harry?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Because it was such a common name. It's suggesting the only way they could pronounce. And they came from abroad. Yes. And they had peculiar names. Everybody was Harry. Harry one, Harry Two, Harry Three, yes, but they were all Harry's. I had about ten Uncle Harry's, I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Did you all gather on high days and holy days and whatever all the family?

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Yes, and that was lovely. When it was a high day, everybody gathered round the table, and my grandmother and my aunt used to cook beautiful foods, lovely foods.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Is it your grandmother? I'm I don't even know anything about your grandmother. Do you remember her name? No. You probably called her grandma, didn't you? Yeah. Booba. Booba, of course.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Never knew her Christian name, no either. She prepared everything. She and my eldest aunt, Sarah, prepared all the food. They were wonderful cooks. Right. And unfortunately I don't take after any of them. Well, you weren't paying attention, were you? You were creating. My brother was always domesticated, and I wasn't. I was a bit of an outsider. I didn't like cooking. I liked eating it, but I didn't like cooking. It never came out successful. But you were your dad's favourite. What did he I was my dad's favourite. How did he indulge you? I could never do wrong in my father's eyes.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

I remember him well. I remember him sitting me on his knee and I would have been five or six. And I can barely remember what he sounded like, what his voice was like, but I distinctly remember him turning to me and saying, Jeremy, you know I've got the Rolls Royce. And I said, Do you? And he said, Yeah, it's a Rolls Canardly. And I said, What's that, grandpa? And he said, Well it goes down the hill, but it can hardly get up the next one. And God that makes sense in a smile.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

That Abby had a lovely sense of humour.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So your father Harry was a tailor? Yes. Yeah? And I remember that because he made us beautiful little coats out of mohair, I think. Absolutely beautiful stuff. To put it bluntly, did he work in a sweatshop? Did he work at home? What did he do?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

He had his own workshop. He employed people. And he made your clothes? He m made my clothes, and he used to make my brother's clothes. I always remember one incident when we were at Shaw and always went to Shaw and my brother sat on my mum's knee. And the reverend said God made everything. And a little voice shouted out, No, he didn't. My grandpa made my I do remember that distinctly.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

And that was Sydney, was it? That was Sydney. That was my father. Yeah. Oh who'd have known, eh? Who'd have known that? So presumably it was a tight-knit Jewish community. Yes, definitely. In each other's houses the whole time, borrowing stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, lots of aunts and uncles and What did they talk about? What was the topic of the day usually? Well they mostly spoke in Yiddish, so I didn't understand the word.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

So hang on a second. They carried on speaking in Yiddish. Yeah. But you were never taught it.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

No. I think I went to a Chaida. Well I didn't if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I'm let's use today's language. You uh Chidah is a a Jewish school. But in today's language, you're confessing at the age of 105 that you bunked off. Yes. Do you feel better for a means to talk? So they t they all talked in Yiddish and you didn't understand a word. Not a word. No. Except other swear words. If we have any prudish listeners, they'll forgive us. Give us a swear word from the day. I can think of one my father always used to say. What except hang on a second. I don't actually know if it's a swear word. He used to say Mies Mishikina.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

A Mashiguna. Yeah, what does that mean? Mad person. Oh, that was it. Yeah, a mad person. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Was there much mixing with the non-Jewish community, or was it all very kind of No, it was a very Jewish community. Right. So you felt safe. Even though you didn't understand a bloody word. No, yeah. So when the war came along, I know this is a big jump, but when the war came along, suddenly you found yourself in a much wider society. Yes. So at some stage you grew comfortable and you became a bit more outward looking, for want of a better word. But they weren't first generation immigrants, were they, your parents? They hadn't just arrived in the country. No, no, they came here in the late nineties.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

1890s. 1890s. Okay. From where? Either Russia or Poland or Lithuania. I think my dad's family came from Lithuania.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Did they talk much about the old country?

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Not really, because I wasn't really interested.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Right. You were a modern girl. And did you feel Polish or Lithuanian or Russian or did you feel English?

SPEAKER_02 12:21

No, I didn't speak any of those languages. So you felt they all spoke English. A sort of English.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And they had Yiddish newspapers and things like that, didn't they?

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah, no, I didn't understand that. I c couldn't read any of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

There was one thing that I used to ask my father, who's, you know, sadly passed away a few years ago. And he really didn't have the answer. I think he tried to find out, but he didn't get very far. Your grandfather was sadly killed, so my father told me in a road accident.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

That was on my father's side. His dad was killed in a road accident.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

In the Milan Road? Yes. My father didn't have any details of that whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

I don't remember much about it. It wasn't much spoken about. I know that it has happened more or less outside London Hospital. Must have been a huge shock. Yeah. I do remember him. I remember him as a little old man with a beard.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Anyway, so you're growing up, you're in your teenage years, before the word teenager was invented, I imagine. Went to school. What was school like for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Northwold Road School. I remember it well, huh? Because at that stage my eyes had gone. I had a blind eye. And you know, children can be very, very cruel.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

And they used to call me boss eye and all the rest of it. And always upset me. It gave me a very bad inferiority complex about my eyes. And then I had to wear big glasses. And mum had to take me to the hospital three times a week. And I also remembered one particular schoolmistress always stuck in my mind. I had an operation on my eye to make it straight. And this school teacher didn't like me very much. And she said, Doris Lee, you are better off with one eye than with two.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

That's very cruel. You wouldn't be allowed to say. But knowing you, you made friends, and albeit there was horrible teasing, you must have had some fun too.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yes. As you go older, so you go to clubs, you go to dances and mix with the crowd.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So then war broke out and my father was evacuated to Norfolk. Yeah. And he used to send you a bit of money back from what he earned picking potatoes. Yeah. And then you joined the army.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Well, I went with my mum we were evacuated to the country. Right. Which I didn't like, but I used to see these girls in uniforms or people in uniforms and other. I'd like to join up. Well that I couldn't join the Air Force 'cause the colour didn't suit me. And the Navy wouldn't suit me either. The only one remaining was the Army. So I decided to join the Army.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Do they have recruiting offices in the street or something? Did you just walk officers all over recruiting people?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

So I joined the army when I was seventeen, I think. Seventeen or eighteen. And I had the best time.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Well, now I've heard you say this, and there may be some listeners who think, what? There was a horrible war going on. But you've never covered up the fact that you had a lot of fun in the war. So during the day, the serious part is that you became one of the first women, I think, to work in radar. Yes. Yeah? Were you any good at it? Not particularly. What did the job entail? What did you have to do?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Well, it was so secret at the time, I didn't really know what I was doing. So were you sat behind some kind of screen or listening device? The radar people were issued with two, you'd call them TV things now, boxes. One to receive messages and one to report the messages, which you had to pass on to somebody else who gave the information to the army. Sometimes I gave the wrong information. Well, hang on a second. Not knowingly.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

You didn't make it up, or did you? No. I just thought I saw it. And so life must have changed a hell of a lot for you at that moment. Entirely.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

I don't suppose I was very good at it. I enjoyed it. I can say that I enjoyed being in the army w amongst a group of girls, all strangers. It was a different atmosphere entirely. Yeah. See, we were of a special group. We were the radar girls, which was new then. And you had to be of certain intelligence to know how they picked me up.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

I knew you were gonna say that. So you had a smart uniform?

SPEAKER_02 18:26

I had a uniform which my dad never considered smart. Did he not make it for you or remake it for you? No. So the very first leave I had was after six weeks. You got leave to go home. And when my dad saw my uniform, he thought it's awful. So he altered it. Of course. Of course. I'd expect that. Yeah. Because we had shapeless tunics, shapeless skirts which came down to our ankles, boots which men wore, and some sort of cap. But my dad immediately altered the uniform, for which when I got back to the barracks, the captain, who was also Jewish, he was the only Jewish one besides me. He said, What have you done? So I said, My father altered it. He should never have done so, but he made me look very smart. He altered the skirt, he altered the tunic. I had a cap, which pulled down over your eyes, so he said he inserted wire in the cap so it was stiff. Made it entirely new, much better uniform.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

So you started to get a lot of attention, presumably.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yes, because when I went back to the army and we stood to attention, the Jewish captain, what are you wearing? I said, My uniform. You're not, you're the army uniform, you. But in the end, all the girls wore my dad's uniform, they smartened it up. I bet.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So do you have a best friend in the army?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

What was her name? Well, her real name was Gladys. And we altered it because I didn't like my real name of Doris. So we altered ourselves. She was gay, and I was Nikki. And to the end of our army career, both of us were gay and Nikki. We used to go out together. We were best friends. Tell us about a night out with gay, Nikki. We used to try and get a lift. We were stationed at Acton at the time. Right. We used to get a lift. Hitchhike. Did you? In uniform or not? In uniform. Hitchhikes one we were on the back of a hay cart going into the West End. We sat, you know, the horse in front and the big cart behind our open cart. And we sat on this cart, not very comfortably, and a lovely car drove up beside us. I think at the time it was a Daimler, and it stopped, and the driver got out, and he said, Sir, so and so, I don't know his name, would like to give you two girls a lift. So we arrived in the West End in a Rolls Voice instead of a hay car.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

It just shows these little encounters can change everything. Yeah. So you get into the West End. Where's your first port of call? Where do you make for? To the Regent Palace. Right. So The men would cue to buy you gin and tonic or whatever it is you were drinking. And then the party would begin.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

The two of us used to walk into the bar, and it was the time when all the Americans were there, and gay was very attractive and attracted all the Americans, so we got lots of free drinks.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

So were you, let's not make any mistake about it. So two very good-looking women walk into a bar full of Americans with plenty of money in their pockets to buy you drinks. They had no money in our pockets.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Otherwise they could have ordered a train up there.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

There's a point. They're nice memories, aren't they? So while the war was still raging, you met this very dashing young man, unsurprisingly called Harry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I sort of knew him before he went in the army. I've known him in a fire.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

And he swept you off your feet? Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Well, he swept me. Yeah. They were good times. And then married and I got pregnant with John. And the group I was in was due to go to Italy to join the forces.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So you were still in the army when you had John?

SPEAKER_02 23:23

I was still in the army, then, yeah. And then I found out that I was expecting and I had to get out the army. And I couldn't go to Italy. And I was furious.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Absolutely furious. So you stayed in Blighty? Yeah, John. You and Harry must have had to make a living at some point. I mean there wasn't a lot to go around, was there? No. What did you do?

SPEAKER_02 23:56

I think I stayed at home, had John. I lived with my mum and dad. And my mum took control of John. And my aunt took control of John. I didn't have much to do with John. But did you get a job? I got a job in an office in a secretarial position. Yeah. And Harry He didn't see John until he was two years old. Gosh. Until he was demobbed from the army. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

That must have been emotional.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

I should also remember having John in hospital and Harry being on leave and he was given leave. I think John was not even a week old, and I remember laying in bed 'cause all the babies were taken away into a different part of the hospital because it was the day of the worst bombing in Tom Court Road. My goodness. It was a terrible day. And Harry got leave, and I remember him marching in his army boots up the ward towards the bed where I was. And naturally he wanted to see what John was like. And they took Harry to the room where all the babies were, and he came back and I said to him, What do you think of him? And he said, not much. I don't know what to say to that, to be honest with you. Brings it all back. Remember that day for well? It was the worst day of the bombing. Life just went on after that. You'd got used to it by then, hadn't you?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

By the time I came along, which wasn't until the early sixties. Well, first of all, you were far and away my favourite auntie. Probably my favourite relative, but we'll keep that to ourselves. And you and Harry used to take me to South End. Yes. Where by coincidence we are now Yes, where you wouldn't walk along the pier 'cause it had gaps in it. Why the bloody hell did they have to have gaps between the planks on the pier? Well, I tell you, whilst I've been here, I've been to the end of the pier.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Muzzletov. And it's quite something went on the railway and went on it from here, and I looked down at the gaps and thought, you still wouldn't fit in. No, I wouldn't, I still wouldn't like it. You were a very good little boy.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

And it was a pleasure taking you out. Because when I took John out, all he wanted to do was buy something. It still hasn't changed a bit. Not a bit.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Do you know it's nice being back in South End, isn't it? Lovely memories.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I'm feeling nostalgic now as well. So sadly Harry died far too young. And eventually you met Lou, who I remember as very much a larger than life chap. Cigar smoking ex-car salesman with the most enormous handlebar moustache you could ever see. And I really liked. Really liked him. But he wasn't what you call an introvert, was he? He wasn't a wallflower. No. How did Lou sweep you off your feet?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

I always called him the man who came to dinner.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Why did he come to dinner? You must have asked him.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

I've no idea. He went to dinner and stayed for twenty-six years. He was that type, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah. Anyway, you both decided to move to South End where we are now. Actually I shouldn't say that, should I? Because although it was part of South End, we're actually talking about Chalkwell, which is one of the Potsha parts of South End. As you constantly reminded me. So you get to South End, and you know, I make no bones about it. You and I have got slightly different political outlooks, which is the way of the world. But I think there's one thing on which we can happily agree, which is the importance of having a local MP who works really hard for their constituency. And your MP here until he was tragically murdered was David Amis. It's thanks to him thanks to his campaign that South End now enjoys city status. It's now a city with you as the resident celebrity. You know when I came to your hundred and fifth birthday party, you're such a celebrity that we had the deputy lieutenant of Essex here. I thought it was just somebody in fancy dress, but it turned out she was a serious dignitary. So I know everybody knows your fabulous age and you're constantly in the local newspaper and constantly appearing here and there. Are you South End's most senior senior citizen?

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Am now. There was somebody who used to go to the same hairdressers who was older than me and who had been in the ATS as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Coincidentally. She passed away last year. I don't know whether she was a hundred and eight or not. I don't know. I know she was the oldest one.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Before we finish, I just want to touch on one of the new men in your life. 'Cause as you told me the story, you were at home in your flat, yeah, living completely happily, independently until you know way past hundred. And there was a knock on the door and you thought this chap was delivering a pizza. But he turned out not to be, and you and he became very good friends. Jack. And his partner Trevor. They told you they were getting married. Yeah. And would you be our maid of honour? What did you say?

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Well, I thought they'd a bit mad. I said to him a hundred and three. How can I be a maid of honour and they say you're definitely gonna be our maid of honour? Which I was in the end. The oldest maid of honour. I saw photographs. They got you a wonderful outfit. Yeah. They're still together.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

And I still see him. Good. And I know you go to your club every week still. Every week, yeah. I know you've hung up your dance shoes. I can never forget you and I dancing when I was a child. You had your first dance with me, and I wore a blue and white dress. Okay, so it made an impression with you as well. Yeah. No, I'm delighted. So now you you're not dancing anymore, sadly, but you're going to the club. And what happens? You gossip, you play cards, you drink tea.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I play cards. I can't do anything with my eyes like this. All I can see is dim people. I can recognise by their voices, or they come up and give me a kiss or something, and I know who's that. But I just can't see. And this is the worst thing that could have happened for me because I love reading, I like books, I like the television, I like people, and I can't see the people to whom I'm speaking. I can see it dimly. Without being able to read or anything that is infuriating. It gets me very worked up because here am I, the home is wonderful to me. I can't do anything except sit in a room. Okay, I've got the television on on which there's a load of rubbish, and the announcers are terrible. It's very annoying because I I like to do things, I'd like to go out. I love dancing. I mean, at first they asked me to go to the club, and I used to say to them, I can't go to the club, they're all old people there. They were quite. And when I eventually was persuaded to go to the club, I was the oldest one there naturally. Naturally. I'm very, very lucky in that I'm at this home now, and they're very good to me. Because the staff here are wonderful. I don't feel that I can join in activities here because I can't see. Also, the people who are here looking at them, I feel they can't see like me, they can't walk, they can't talk. I am extremely lucky in the fact that I can still think.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

There are various things I can't do. I sit here and look at blank walls and think, what can I do? But I'm lucky because I have a wonderful family. Yeah. I couldn't have asked for a better family. They're absolutely wonderful to me.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Do you know I think maybe you should join in an activity or two, but I'll tell you what, because the staff here are fabulous. I'm absolutely sure that if you needed a bit of help to see something, I'm absolutely sure one of them would sit by you.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

They have taken me out in a wheelchair, and we go to the park, which is very nice of them. And I appreciate everything they do for me.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

You know what? When I was coming in today, I was really happy because I've been here before, knowing how well you're being looked after. I know you're frustrated, but I also know that you are the most exceptional person I know. Not just because you're a hundred and bloody five, but you are. And if you put your mind to it, you can join in, you can at least join in with a chat. You might not be able to play cards, but you can you can do other things with them, even if one of the people here is sitting by you and saying, Doris, did you hear that? and blah blah blah. Yeah. You've got to give it a go.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

My door is always open. And the number of people who stop, she's a hundred and thirty. I'm a novelty. Never seeing anybody at 130 before. Well, it's 105.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

I don't blame you for talking it up a bit, but I think you're in a really good place. And I think you need to start remembering lovely things and realizing that you can still do so much more than lots of other people. Yeah. Doris, it's been such an honour to sit and chat to you. So lovely. And I know it's pre watershed, but let me give you a hug as well. You always were favourite. Yeah, I know that, but don't tell everybody. No.