A Dave and Dharm DeMystify Special Series - From Vision to Impact with Shargiil Bashir

FROM VISION TO IMPACT EP 1 : LEADERSHIP COMMITMENT

• Dave Wallace • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Shahjil Bashir, Chief Sustainability Officer of First Abu Dhabi Bank, discusses his newly published book 'From Vision to Impact,' which focuses on implementing sustainability in businesses.

This episode establishes that senior leadership commitment is the fundamental cornerstone of any successful sustainability initiative within organisations. Bashir highlights the differences between ESG factors, which serve as a tool for assessing the environmental, social, governance, and broader sustainability ethos, encompassing long-term viability and ethical business practices.

There are five critical roles that boards and senior management must fulfil: setting vision and strategy, ensuring accountability and oversight, managing risks as well as identifying opportunities, maintaining transparency in reporting, and cultivating cultural influence throughout the organisation. Companies such as Unilever, Tesla, and Patagonia are used as brilliant examples of how committed leadership drives meaningful sustainability transformations.

To secure leadership buy-in, Shargiil recommends linking sustainability to core business goals, providing comprehensive education, demonstrating both risks and opportunities, and showcasing immediate wins. The concept of "tone from the top" emerges as crucial; leaders must embody sustainability in their decisions and actions, not merely endorse it verbally.

The episode concludes with a stakeholder analysis that demonstrates how sustainability impacts employees, customers, shareholders, and regulators, reinforcing the importance of leadership commitment in navigating today's interconnected business environment. Without proper leadership commitment, sustainability remains merely aspirational rather than transformational, making this commitment essential for organisations seeking meaningful environmental and social impact.

Balancing ‘People, Planet, and Profit’ is difficult, but imperative for a long-lasting, sustainable business.

SPEAKER_02:

Nobody's discussing whether you have digitalization across your company or not, because that's a must. If you don't have digitalization across your company, you're most likely out of business because it's so embedded in an organization. Sustainability is no different.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to this very special series of the Dave and Darm Demystify show, where we delve into the intricacies of sustainability, recorded in collaboration with the author of From Vision to Impact, Implementing Sustainability in Your Business, Shargil Bashir, the Chief Sustainability Officer at First Abu Dhabi Bank. We aim to provide a practical roadmap for businesses embarking on their sustainability journey. Each episode will dissect a chapter from Shargill's book, blending theoretical insights with actionable strategies to empower organizations to initiate sustainable practices immediately. Now let's join your hosts, Dave Wallace and Sharjil Bashir, as we explore the path to sustainable business transformation.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to this very special edition of the Dave and Darm Show. In fact, this is a series of podcasts that we are doing with Sharjil Bashir, who's the Chief Sustainability Officer of First Abu Dhabi Bank, based out of Abu Dhabi. So, Sharjil, why don't you just introduce yourself and why don't you tell us why

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much, Dave, for having me. And yes, as you mentioned, this is a series of many, and I'll come back to that. A little bit about myself, as you mentioned, I'm the Chief Sustainability Officer at First Abu Dhabi Bank. I've been in the banking sector for 20 plus years in multiple different roles. I'm a native Dane, so I've been working there for the past four years. I've been living in the UAE where I've been having my current role within sustainability. The reason we're here is that I have just recently published a book called From Vision to Impact, implementing sustainability into your business. And basically, the book is about sustainability and how you practically can start making an impact. The book is in 10 different chapters that take you through step at a time. What are the steps you need to take when you're trying to implement sustainability and embedding it as a part of your organization? And you've been very kind to say that we do a collaboration on this, on a series where we can go through chapter by chapter and have a discussion that how can you practically take some of the outputs from this book and try to implement in your organization, your business, or the impact you can make individually?

SPEAKER_01:

I think, I mean, you use the word practical, which I think is the word I'm looking for. When we first started talking about this, what I felt very strongly was that actually there is very little in terms of practical guides for companies to do this. And, you know, I think you're in a really unique position in that not only do you have the theory, but you've got the practice as well. And I think, you know, increasingly businesses, be they big, small, medium. They want to think about how to... No,

SPEAKER_02:

absolutely. And David, one of the reasons I decided to write this book was that so many people were reaching out to me to say that, okay, what are you doing? What have you done? How can I start working on the topic of sustainability, either as a career move into sustainability, or they wanted to make a change themselves within their organizations or organizations that simply cannot afford to have sustainability experts, right? Because if you're a law organization you have the privilege of having a department that can take that responsibility but we have a lot of companies out there the medium-sized entities that cannot afford to have a department working on sustainability and how do you then start this journey what are the steps you need to take so basically i sat down and said you know i want to break this process up that what are the journeys what are the steps you need to take a step at a time and then bring real life examples so what i've tried to do is in the book to bring in examples and in each chapter from actual companies that have gone through those examples which you can then go back and look into and explore even further that what did those companies do and so they're kind of an appetizer in this book and then you can do further research from that perspective to say that what are the steps we can do how will this fit my specific organization as well

SPEAKER_01:

so Brilliant. I mean, the format we're taking is we're going to take in each individual chapter of the book as a podcast episode. We're going to talk about the content that you've written about. But I think what we'll try to do is end with three or four positive, practical things that people can do to get started. So, you know, I'm really looking forward to kind of delving into this. And again, it's fantastic, actually, that you're doing this and taking the time to do this, because I you've put the effort into writing a book, but often people are so busy with the best will in the world, they don't have time to delve into books and actually doing something around podcasts, which people can listen to on their way to work or walking the dog or whatever it is, I think is a fantastic thing. So thank you so much again for taking the time to do this.

SPEAKER_02:

No, thank you for having me, Dave. And again, just doing a small commercialization of the book. I've decided that I'm going to donate all the royalties of the book to an NGO that is going to support the betterment for the planet. So for me, it's basically about giving a little bit back to whatever I can to the betterment of the planet. Hopefully the book is going to help some people specifically and hopefully this will help them implement and embed sustainability within their organizations. Every time somebody will buy this book, the money is going to go for the benefit for the planet as well. So try to make it as a win-win. So again, thank you so much to you and harm to giving me this opportunity for this collaboration and doing this series and to spread the word so more and more people can try to benefit on the topic of sustainability and try to make their own small efforts.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think for all of us, it's one of the most important things we can be doing. And I guess... You know, you are in a position where you have access through the work that you do to lots of data. So if anyone understands the criticality of the subject, I'm guessing it's you. So without further ado, why don't we get started? Chapter one is about leadership commitment. Do you want to introduce that as a topic? And then we'll go into a bit more detail on it. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

absolutely. Leadership commitment is basically when you're starting your journey on sustainability, it is critical that to have your leadership as part of that journey. Sustainability is not a topic that can start somewhere in the organization and that it's gonna grow. A lot of companies try that, and for some time they might be even successful, but they never succeed on the long-term. The whole reason is that we want to move away from this thinking of environment versus economy, right? Things go hand in hand. More focus on the environment is actually better for the economy of the company, right? We need to see investing in sustainability as an investment in the future of your company. And the people to make that decision is the leadership of that company. And that's why we need to have the leadership commitment. And the leadership commitment comes from the board. It comes from the CEO. It comes from the leadership. Because you are trying to embed, you're trying to create a culture. And you cannot create a culture in an organization without having sustainability embedded into it. And then a lot of people will say, oh, we have a standalone sustainability department somewhere in the organization. But for me, the question is, how are you embedding it across your organization? Both you and I are old enough to when the digitalization journey started, right? If you go back 20 years ago, everybody was getting a laptop in their business or their day-to-day work, right? And then getting access to internet, emails, and so on. And at one point, it was by every company needed to have a website. And suddenly it was by every company needed to have an application on the smartphone. And today, nobody's discussing whether you have digitalization across your company or not, right? Because that's a must. If you don't have digitalization across your company, well, you're most likely out of business, right? Because it's so embedded in an organization. Sustainability is no different. We need to embed sustainability across the organization. And that's why it's critical to have that leadership commitment.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting because I guess what you do see is companies where they do have a sustainability department, but they're disconnected from the leadership of that. So it sort of exists in a silo rather than as a horizontal philosophy or application that goes right across the business. So from what you're saying, it has to be a top-down process rather than a bottom-up process.

SPEAKER_02:

It has to be a top-down process and it has to be... embedded across the organization. And it's fantastic to have a sustainability department as most of the large companies will have, which is great. But the important part is that the leadership needs to commit to those departments to support them from that discussion, right? It needs to be a discussion that is taken at the vote level. It needs to be a discussion that's taken at a leadership level, whether it's with the CEOs or CFOs or so on, to make sure that the commitment is there because you need to embed it as part of your strategy. Because this is one of the most critical topics for boards to discuss. Because how does your future look like? While the full organization is thinking of what we're going to do tomorrow, the responsibility of leadership is to think about what are we going to do the day after tomorrow or in a year's time or three years time or 10 years time. And that's why sustainability needs to sit there. That's the tone from the top is so essential to have there.

SPEAKER_01:

One of... The questions I had is you've got sustainability, but then some companies will also have an ESG department. So what's the difference between sustainability and ESG?

SPEAKER_02:

That's such a good question, right? And I think it's a term that confuses a lot of people from that perspective. ESG is basically a framework. So when you want to assess a company, you go and look into them. What are they doing from an environment perspective? What are they doing from a sustainability perspective? What are they doing from a governance perspective? And you can start assessing them from a point-by-point basis. So ESG is pretty much a framework which is basically coming from an investment perspective where a lot of the asset managers will go and assess the company and they will look at the ESG scores, ESG ratings, ESG maturity of the company. When you look at sustainability, sustainability is much wider. Sustainability is how are you embedding things across your company, right? It's about creating that culture, which is wider than just having the framework. And to be honest, I think a lot of companies and even the companies I've been with mixes those terms as well as part of the organizations as well, because someone in your organization will be looking at it from a framework perspective. Some of it will be looking at it from a wider perspective, because when we discuss sustainability, sustainability, HR, the way you treat your employees is a key aspect of it, right? And when we look at it, it's about the social values you have as a part of your organization. So sustainability as a term is a much wider, and almost I use the term umbrella that covers everything. So basically sustainability is wider than ESG. ESG is typically used as a framework and when we then come to a corporate world, ESG gets often used from that perspective because it's easier for companies to put this in different frameworks and use it from that perspective. But companies that are truly trying to embed it across their organization are typically looking more into sustainability that can be split up and sit in different parts of an organization. So like HR might be separate from your sustainability team and so on, but can close collaborate under the umbrella of sustainability. Thank you so much

SPEAKER_01:

for kind of clearing that up. So if I am in a large, well, in any organization, and I want to make sure that sustainability is something that is part of our business strategy, I'm guessing you need to sort of think about a number of things like how it fits into the company vision, How it gets measured. I guess there's a real danger that companies could be accused of things like greenwashing because, you know, sustainability just becomes to the eyes of the rest of the world, a marketing gimmick or something like that. So, you know, how do companies go about sort of getting all of this in place so that it can be sort of communicated internally and externally, but also become a real thing within the business? Because if it's very broad, it's as broad as you say, it needs some control as well.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it always starts with you have to have something to communicate externally, right? So it always starts with you need to have something to communicate and then you can start communicating it, right? So greenwashing is basically that you're communicating something that is not correct, or you're doing it on purpose on a wrong basis. But that's probably for a separate discussion. But when you look at it, what you can do as an organization, the first step you need to say is to say, you need to put a sustainability or ESG lens across everything you're doing, right? That's like the simple thing. A very simple way to do this is next time you're updating your strategy as an organization, You can start by looking into how can we embed sustainability here, right? Like typically all companies have different strategic priorities, right? And typically they will update them on a yearly basis. What you could look into is that how do I add a sustainability lens here, right? It could be that you have a plan of launching a new product next year. If you're launching a new product, you could say, okay, how can we try to make this product more sustainable compared to where it is today? Can we reduce its emissions? Can we make sure that it's contributing to the betterment of the planet? That's one way to do it. It could also be some of the services you have existing, right? You might say, oh, let's consider how do we bring a sustainability angle into this? If we need to make this product more relevant for a wider audience because we do know that consumers out there today want to have more sustainable products. Actually, I have some data in my book that we have research showing that consumers are willing to pay more than 10% higher price for a sustainability product. So if that's the case, you're already having a business case that if I can make this product, this service I have today more sustainable, well, then there's a demand for this. So basically it just comes down to how do we add this sustainability lens to it? And I think that you will know this much better than me, right? Because you've been working in the digital world for a long time. When you try to looking back in time, it was about embedding digitalization in everything. It wasn't that we will only focus on this product. It was basically about how can we make all our products digital. It's not like if you go to a company's website, it's not like you can only buy 50% of their products digital and the rest you need to go to the store. It doesn't work like that. And it's the same way. You need to start by saying, I'm going to add a sustainability lens into this specific product service offering I have as a company and let me step by step start embedding it. So every time you're having a new product, you will embed it. Every time you're reviewing your policies or you're reviewing your services, every time you're having a conversation with a client, you need to start embedding it. But it's not an on-off switch that you can just quickly introduce. It's going to take time. And that's why you need that leadership commitment to coming from the top. This is the direction we need because we do know there's a demand for this and how do we embed this.

SPEAKER_01:

Are there some examples of companies which you think sort of excel at doing that?

SPEAKER_02:

Quite a few. In the book I mentioned, which I found quite fascinating, there's a company called Interface Inc, where their CEO Ray Anderson, back in 1994, started focusing on the topic of sustainability, right? And there have been many. So we're speaking about 30 years ago. In 94. 94, 30 years ago, right? A carpet company. And basically, he was the one who started with this focus around environment versus economy to say, It's not a question that because I'm focusing on environment, that's bad for the economy. It's actually the opposite. He saw big, huge profits by having more sustainable products because the quality got better. The demand was higher for those products. They were much better sought after. And I think that's so important to remember that when you start looking into this, the product's actually getting better. Why would you not want a sustainable product specifically? And I think that's the huge impact that we got to remember. And as he mentioned, at that time, the value of goodwill was so huge that he said he could never have marketed or bought anything of the goodwill he got. And at that time, he set an ambition that they wanted to become a zero emissions business over time and work towards that. Other companies we know from today who's done this hugely well is a company like IKEA. from a furniture perspective, coming with some Swedish roots who have focused a lot on saying that, you know, everything they do, how can they try to make their different things more environment friendly? Again, if you go there today, I guess probably most people who have been to IKEA have been to one of IKEA's restaurants, right? One of the small things, right? They have like real glasses to say that if you want to have a drink, you use a real glass. You don't need to use these recyclable glasses because it's cheaper for them to use those glasses. is more environmental friendly, right? And it's actually, by the way, a better experience as well, right? As a customer. So your customer experience is better. It's more environmental friendly. So why wouldn't you use that? And being a furniture company, they have a lot of these glasses, by the way, which is also a good advertisement for people to buy it as well. Right. So it gets connected from that perspective and everything they do, they're trying to embed sustainability into that. Other good examples, you know, example we often discuss and most people associate with the topic of sustainability is Tesla electric vehicle. Again, a lot of people who buy Teslas and I'm sure there's a lot of detailed research around this are not only buying it because it's electric vehicle. That's probably something that people might do today. But at the time when people started buying it was because it was a super cool car, right? It was more digitalized than the most cars you had. The whole experience about having a sustainable vehicle or electric vehicle was much better. It was the whole packet. People didn't just move from a fossil fuel car to electric car because they wanted to do that change. Some did. but most did it because the overall experience with that was better, right? And that was also a leadership vision coming from that perspective, that how can you link from that side? And again, it just shows that you're enhancing your product, that demand for your product is going up because your product becomes better when you're trying to make it sustainable and that is being appreciated. And again, that creates the value for your company because end of the day, it's important to remember that profit planet and people needs to go hand in hand, right? Sustainability and profit needs to go hand in hand. We need to make the investments to get better returns. And that's why the investors have such a huge interest into investing into sustainability.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really interesting because I guess a lot of companies will think that actually sustainability is an impediment to them doing business. But what you're saying is quite the contrary, is that's actually a huge benefit to them in terms of what they do if they do it right and do it kind of correctly. One question I had was around getting leadership buy-in as well, because I totally get that this has to be a top-down process. But sometimes there will be misalignment between senior management and the board, for instance. So how do you kind of make sure that that buy-in is there and that everybody's kind of connected around it?

SPEAKER_02:

I think the two things that are super important in this case is to explain the why. Why is it that we need to do this? And it's about presenting the burning platform,

SPEAKER_03:

right?

SPEAKER_02:

If we are looking into sustainability, why is it that we should do this,

SPEAKER_03:

right?

SPEAKER_02:

There's a couple of examples of this. First of all, let's look at some of our key stakeholders. Let's start with those. I mentioned this before. When we look at consumers specifically, I've added some data into the book as well. I would not bore with it here, but basically we know there's a lot of research out there showing that consumers are willing to pay higher price for sustainable products. So if you have a consumer who's willing to play, let's say,$10 for a not sustainable product, but willing to pay$11 for a sustainable product, then why wouldn't you try to create that product to get that profitability? So that's one aspect of it. Employees, there's a lot of data out there that one of the main things when you're trying to hire the talent out there, besides remuneration, One of the important things a lot of the younger generations are looking into is that, is this a sustainable company? Is this a company that aligns with my value for a better planet? So if you want the best talent out there, this is becoming more and more important. The next important stakeholder we all have are the investors, right? Your shareholders. And we've seen numerous examples where we are seeing that the investors are looking into more sustainable companies. We're actually seeing so proactive shareholders who are pushing the companies to become more sustainable because they want to safe-proof their investments for the long term. So we are seeing a lot of proactiveness coming from the investor community. And finally, regulators. When we look into the past decade, the amount of regulation has increased over 100% towards sustainability topics. So we are seeing regulators pushing to this side as well. So if you need to explain to your leadership to the why, you can explain that, well, our consumer wants more sustainability. They're willing to pay a higher price. We are seeing our employees, if you want the best talent, well, in that case, we need to focus on sustainability. If we want our shareholders, investors to be happy, we need to focus on the topic of sustainability. If regulation, and we don't want to get hit by that, we need to prepare for sustainability. So that's your why, that's your burning platform. And this is without looking into all the climate risk threats we are facing, right? We have just been seeing over the past couple of weeks, we've been seeing the floods in Spain where hundreds of people have died. We have been seeing the last year, we saw the heat waves in the UK as well. Across Europe, we have been seeing droughts in the US. We've been seeing flooding in Asia. So we are seeing these extreme events all the time where people are unfortunately dying because of these events. and also companies are being hurt, right? When we are seeing these floodings, these are impacting companies, right? Like property damages are taking place and so many different impacts on companies as well. That's the whole risk side that we need to sort as well. So that's your burning platform. That's why you need to do it, right? It's the same thing. Again, I will try to use this example quite a few times around digitalization because I think it's such an important deja vu that we are trying to see here, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bloodbuster, right? Some of us remember them when you wanted to see a movie over the weekend. You will go down, you will rent a DVD, you will see it. Today, they did not survive because they did not adapt to that change. If you as company don't adapt to the topic of sustainability, you might not survive the change we are going to look into and the transition that is going to happen in the coming decades. So in order to future-proof your business, you need to start embedding sustainability. And that's the why. And I think that's important to present to the leadership. I fully understand companies where you go to the leadership, especially in the smaller companies who might not have that five, 10-year vision, but might say, listen, For me to invest in sustainability is gonna cost some money. What's the benefit for me? And that's why you need to share and use as an example when you're doing your strategy to say, I need to explain the why. I need to put the burning platform out there for this specific company in this specific industry. What are the changes we are seeing in this industry? Why is this super important? We remember 10 years ago, some of the biggest car manufacturers, they weren't focusing on electric vehicles. Today, I don't think there's any car manufacturer out there who's not focusing on electric vehicle because that will be a big part of the future fleet. And it's a similar way You just need to figure out how this will fit into your specific industry and how that transition is happening. We are seeing some of the biggest fossil fuel companies transitioning as well, now investing in renewable energy because they want to be playing on this energy space as well and trying to transition. So again, that's the why, that's the burning platform you need to go and present to leadership to get their buy-in.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really good. to hear you sort of talk about that. I mean, you're a senior position within a bank and the climate crisis is something that banks have to be very mindful of. So it's kind of great to hear you talk very boldly about all of these things because I think it's important that people do understand the burning platform, as you say.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, Dave, and even more importantly from a society perspective, right? And I think sometimes it's also important to remember that end of the day, hopefully, most people think this way, is that we want to leave a better planet than we have been brought up in, right? And I think that's important, that you try to say, where can you all contribute? And again, we look at sustainability as kind of a new topic, but when we look at the large companies, we have been taking social corporate responsibility for a long time. This is a term that has been there for decades. You have seen it in the form of charity, donations, sponsorships, and so on. So this has been happening. The private sector companies have always taken a responsibility. Now the change that is required for the betterment of the planet is that you also need to find the business case. And the whole point is there are so many business cases. We need to... move away from this thinking that this is going to be philanthropy, this is a donation, it's money out of the window. No, this is investment in your future. In order to survive and thrive in the future, you need to make that investment. And that's why you need to understand that why. How will this impact? Why should my business do it? And how will this impact

SPEAKER_01:

us specifically? Fantastic. So the examples you gave, What's interesting about them is the positive tone with which they talked about sustainability. So is there sort of any guidance around kind of tone that you think is kind of important as well?

SPEAKER_02:

First of all, I think it's important to remember, and I do this in the book as well, is to split the responsibility into the organization into two levels. There's the strategical, there's the tactical, and there's the operational. So you have the board and the CEO setting the strategic direction. This is what we want to do. Then you have the part of the leadership of the organization that will figure out tactically What does this mean for us? What can we do? Is this changing our product, adjusting our products? About how do we convey the message to our customers, employees? Those become on the technical aspect. And then the whole operational part. which the whole organization needs to do, right? Where everybody will have their role to play. So as an example, a simple thing, remove paper from your organization. That could be a very simple thing, right? We digitalize, again, which is going to be benefit. You're going to save them money to buy paper. You digitalize the process. A simple thing to do, right? It could be, you know, recycling within your organization. So you can move these things from a very strategic high level at the leadership to a very operational specific action you need to take. And that tone from the top is basically showing how you do this. The companies that are being successful, if you look at some of the most sustainability-focused companies, and if you look at their leadership, they're walking the talk. They're showing up at the discussions that is needed. They're willing to do the investment. They have said that we are investing in the future. By the way, which all successful companies have done over time, not because of sustainability, but always. When you look at some of the most successful companies in the world, if you discuss the Apples, the Teslas, etc., well, they invested in the future. And sustainability is no different. When you're bringing sustainability into it, it's because you're investing in the future. And that's exactly the same. So I almost want to turn it the other way around, that the most successful leaders, the mature leaders, they're investing in sustainability because they're investing in the future. And they have that long visionary view that how is it that we can do this? What's important? But the way you can work with a tone from the top is basically, you know, leading by examples. taking those small things, showing up on them, remove paper wherever you can, try to, when you're traveling, your car, try to again move to the example of electric vehicle, right? Imagine the CEOs who are driving an electric vehicle, how strong a signal that is, right? Or companies that are trying to focus on those small things where you get the buy-in from the CEO who's standing up there and saying, yes, we are investing in the future. That's what create a culture, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing. Well, listen, I think that's covered an awful lot of ground. So I think it's kind of fascinating to hear. And I think, you know, very clear in terms of what you've been saying. Are there sort of three practical things that people could sort of think about and do based on the first chapter? I

SPEAKER_02:

think for me, the first thing is important to have a discussion with your leadership. Understand where your leadership on this, right? if not working on the topic of sustainability and unless that the things you need to is you need to explain them the why. Why is it that we should be focusing on this? Is it to do with your product? Is it to do with your services? How could you try to embed sustainability into that? I think explaining the why is super important. I think understanding your stakeholders, understand what does my clients, employees, investors want from the topic of sustainability very specifically is very, very important. You can address those stakeholders. And I think then finally, Helping everyone in the organization, speaking about sustainability, because that creates a culture. The tone from the top will come when everybody starts speaking about this as well. These things go hand in hand. The leadership is keen to speak about what the organization feels is important. And the organization wants to hear what the leadership believe is important, right? So these things need to go hand in hand. So for me, yes, the why, understanding your stakeholders and getting the tone from the leadership in the organization on this.

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing. Thank you so much. Well, I'm looking forward very much to delving into chapter two next. But that was a brilliant, brilliant walk through the first chapter of the book. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much, Dave. Thank you for having me.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for tuning in to Dave and Darm Demystify. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to like and subscribe and tune in next time as we take another topic and demystify it.