A Dave and Dharm DeMystify Special Series - From Vision to Impact with Shargiil Bashir

FROM VISION TO IMPACT EP 8 : COMMUNICATION & COLLABORATION

• Dave Wallace • Season 1 • Episode 8

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In this final episode, Shargiil discusses the chapters centred on communication, transparency, partnerships, and collaboration within ESG strategies. He emphasises the significance of clear, concise, and concrete communication.  

The discussion highlights the value of sharing relatable stories about ESG metrics, such as converting tons of CO2 into understandable equivalents for stakeholders.  

The conversation stresses the importance of companies being transparent about their assumptions and progress, drawing comparisons to financial reporting to prevent accusations of 'greenwashing.' They also cover the critical role of internal communication in embedding ESG culture within organisations.  

Emphasising the role of employees, Shargiil advocates for ESG awareness and integrating sustainability into corporate culture. 

The episode concludes with a focus on the necessity of partnerships and collaboration, stating that achieving sustainability goals is unfeasible without them. Finally, the hosts encourage listeners to engage with and explore ESG topics, highlighting the significance of commencing their sustainability journeys.

SPEAKER_01:

ESG is going to touch every single person in this world in some type and form at some point in the not too distant future if it's not already doing so. I would just urge everyone to explore this topic, get started on your own journey or work with your colleagues in your organization that is working on it.

SPEAKER_00:

In episode eight, Shargill talks about the importance of transparency and communication before going on to discuss collaboration and partnerships.

SPEAKER_02:

So welcome to this final episode and Like with the last episode, we're going to cover off two chapters in this episode and I think then wrap up with the conclusion. So Sharjil, it's been a fantastic journey of understanding for me as we've kind of gone through the book. So thank you so much for writing the book, but then your ability to communicate what's in that book through these podcasts, I think is fabulous. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Dave, for all your support and for having this conversation with me.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, absolutely. So chapter nine is all about communication and transparency. So we kind of finish with that and talk about partnerships and collaboration as well. What we're doing here is part of the communication around ESG. So I think we're kind of fulfilling an objective around it. But communication is critical, isn't it? And I guess there's levels of communication within sort of ESG. So you've got the numbers, but then there's kind of stories. But I guess underlying all of this is that need for transparency. So you talk about meaningful transparency. Can you sort of explain what that means, please?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think, Dave, you're absolutely right. Communication is the key, right? Because the topic of ESG is such a recent topic and it's a topic where everybody is moving so super fast. that we need to ensure that we are having a transparent communication. And then I always speak about the three C's when we are discussing communication, right? That when you're communicating, make sure it's clear, it's concise, and it's concrete. Because it's very important that when you're communicating on the topic of ESG, and especially because There's a lot of technical elements when we discuss ESG, right? When we start discussing, in some of our previous conversations, we've discussed scope one, two, and three, and so on. And general public will not know about scope one, two, and three, right? And it's very important that when you start having these communications, that you're very specific and very transparent around these. But it's also important that you do the communication, when I say in a meaningful way, is of course the three Cs, as I mentioned, but it's also about the storytelling It's very important that you bring the people into as a part of this communication. Who is there your stakeholders you're communicating to? And it's important to remember in communication, just like in every other general communication, one size fits all does not apply here. you will have one set of your stakeholders you need to communicate in a one way. As an example, this could be your investors, where your focus might be very detailed, very fact-based. We have reduced our emission by X, Y, Z tons, while your communication to your clients or consumers might be much more part of a storytelling that how is this relevant for them? Because as a part of this communication on ESG, it's also very much about raising awareness, right? We need to get our consumers to understand what does this mean. So when we communicate to them or our clients, whether you're business to business or business to consumer, it's very much about you need to explain to them what does this mean for them and how do you bring them as a part of this conversation. The typical numbers we always see is, oh, we reduced our emission by X million of tons. None of us know what that actually means, but let's try to translate So how many cars does that mean per year, right? Or how many households energy does this equal to? What does this actually mean? Let's try to make it precise. Let's make it comparable so people can understand what does this actually mean? Is this equal to a road trip from center of London to Heathrow Airport? Or does this equal traveling around the whole UK in my car? What does this actually mean? So I think it's very much about bringing that into the case and making it relevant for your stakeholders, whether it's your employees, your clients, other stakeholders, governmental entities, your shareholders, we need to make sure that that communication is very clear and transparent for those specific stakeholders.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess in terms of how, like I hear often people talk about tons of carbon, You know, just as a simple one. And then you kind of think, well, what does a ton of carbon actually mean? You're a ton of CO2 or it's very difficult to get your head around it. So I think I found a calculator where you can turn tons of carbon into trees and things like that. And that, for me, is a useful way. So you're right, though, it's sort of building a narrative around some of the data is so important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And this is where you move away from what I will say a tick box exercise that we need to reduce emission to something which gets truly embedded across your ecosystem with your different stakeholders. So when you're communicating to your, if you're communicating to your consumers, right, let's assume you're an energy company and you start mentioning to them, oh, through the different initiatives, we've avoided emissions of this and this. most of your consumers will not understand what this means and they will not have an interest in knowing this. But if you then start telling them this actually equals to that your whole year's energy was actually what we saved through this initiative, then it's something that becomes relatable, right? Or it equals to that, you know, on average people drive, I don't know, 10,000 miles a year on their car. This is what this equals to, right? And then it becomes something relatable. It's something that we can understand and we can start putting in context and say, oh, this will actually equal to we remove the 20% of the cars of London. That's a lot. And then we start making these things relatable. And I think that's super important. And that's why it's so important that we start putting people into these conversations. And that's why when you start your sustainability journey and you're moving across these different steps, when you come to communication, it's so important that you look beyond these tick box and just mention, oh, these are the tons and et cetera we've done. We've mobilized so much financing or we've done so and so. You actually start relating it to people, something they can make comparable and something they can understand in their day-to-day life.

SPEAKER_02:

One of the things about communication within ESG is sometimes you won't achieve the results that you want. How do you kind of keep stakeholders on the side? How do you avoid accusations of kind of greenwashing There's a sort of real need having the right tone, isn't there, in terms of the communication?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. But my personal view is because ESG has moved so fast, because let's just go back and remember like less than 10 years ago, before the Paris Agreement was signed back in 2016, sustainability in ESG was very far away for most people. Only since then, around COP26 in Glasgow in 2022, we really started to focus on the topic ESG into day-to-day discussions. And as part of that, we've got to remember there are companies who missed their financial targets as well. This happens every single day. There are CEOs, CFOs who set some targets, some companies, and then suddenly the assumptions changes. And we don't meet these targets. And the stock market and et cetera, we understand what that happens. Let's just take the reason example. Due to the political situation we live in right now, because of the tariffs imposed by the US, I'm sure there are going to be companies globally who will not meet their financial target they had planned for in 2025. And most likely that's gonna be okay because things change. We saw a sudden change happen. ESG targets are not different from that perspective. The underlying things can change. And sometime when we set targets, when you make these bold commitments, you make some different assumptions. And again, this comes back to why transparency is so important. You need to be transparent that we have set this target under the assumption of one, two, three, four. If any of these underlying assumptions changes, well, then we will not be able to meet this. I can give you a good example, aviation sector, right? Aviation sector is one of our key sectors globally, right? A sector that continues growing as well because we travel like we've never traveled before. And especially post COVID, people had this huge urge to travel as much as they could because now they hadn't had the ability to travel for a couple of years. And the world is probably going to see a big growth in aviation and traveling going forward. However, at the same time, we know it's a sector where emissions are among the highest, right? I think it's around three to somewhere between three to five percent of global emissions are linked to aviation. So we have this challenge that people want to travel more and more, but at the same time, we want to reduce our emissions as much as possible. And this is a balance we need to figure out how this will happen. Some of the dependencies is on technology. So as an example, we get more efficient planes in the future. So that's one way that we can reduce this. The other thing we discuss is the sustainable aviation fuel. So basically, instead of using jet fuel, you use sustainable aviation fuel. However, at this point, sustainable aviation fuel is somewhere three to four times more expensive than jet fuel, right? So who's going to pay for that? Is it going to be you and me who wants to travel who's going to pay for this? Or will it be the airlines who's going to pay for this? Or is it going to be the government? Or is it going to be the mix of all three? And these kind of discussions are going to take time. So if you're an airline who set a bold ambition that we want to get to this and this part by, let's say, 2030, 2035, you've had some assumptions once you did that. And if you then don't meet them because some of the underlying assumption changes, I don't think it's fair to blame this company. This company might have done the best it could, right? But if the underlying assumptions have changed, let's say that we expected the policymakers to do some policies that will support sustainable aviation fuel, but that doesn't happen, then you can't only blame that airline specifically, right? And I think that's why it's so important Be transparent with what are the assumptions that you have put in? What is it that it will take for you to get to where you believe on that target? And be very transparent about this. And if then the underlying statement changes, well, then you will need to reassess your target and then update it accordingly.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's really 100% agree with you. And then I think it's just been... bold about it. There's a phrase which I hear quite often now around ESG, which is so-and-so is quietly shelving their plans around this and that. And as soon as I read quietly shelving, you go, well, that sounds really odd. And it sounds underhand. And, you know, it's the opposite, I guess, of what you're talking about. Again, how you communicate this is really important. So I guess if you're in the airline industry, it is saying, well, look, policy is not catching up as fast as we need it to in order to. So they've then got to deal with shareholders, customers, all of these other bits and pieces. I completely agree with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think a couple of things on that day, right? First thing we need to recognize is that the policies are generally not following through, right? Because when we look at it, the Paris Agreement was signed by 190 plus countries. And if you look today, how many countries have put in policies in place that will help them meet the Paris Agreement? I think we're looking around 10, 15, 20 countries, maybe. So there's a lot of countries out there who still haven't set up policies who's going to get us to the Paris Agreement at this point. One thing is policymakers, collaboration between the private sector, public sector is crucial. The second part, exactly as you mentioned, if you're transparent and say these are the underlying assumptions, and then you, on a yearly basis, as a minimum, if you can't do it on a quarterly, say this is how we are progressing on each of these targets, here are how the assumptions are moving. this is the transparency that is required, right? Because the worst part that happens is that if you as a company, you set a target, it suddenly disappears, and then you come on it. Every time you do something well, you communicate. Every time that things are not going according to the plan, you don't communicate. This is what creates a misalignment or a little bit of suspiciousness about this that, you know, what's actually happening. And that's why you need to have consistent communication quarter after quarter or year after year to say, how are you progressing on this strategy or this direction that you have set? And I think that's very important. There are some very good examples of company who's done this on many occasions and continue to lead on this, share that. And then often we have this tendency to blame things for greenwashing and green hushing, right? And I think this again comes back to that if you have been as transparent as possible and you have been as factual as possible in the statements that you have provided, in the data you have provided, that's also a way to avoid greenwashing, right? Because you have been clear on your assumptions, you've been clear on how you're progressing. We know there's so many factors around us that impact us, just like in our financial reporting, they're gonna impact us on ESG as well, and then you move forward from that perspective. The biggest difference we have between financial reporting and ESG reporting is, Financial reporting, first of all, we've had it for many, many years, decades now, right? Where we have seen consistent financial reporting coming. People are well familiar what this means. They have seen the metrics that we report on. On the other hand, ESG is new and emerging. People still need to understand what gets reported on. And the second part is, We don't have all those aligned metrics at this point, right? So when we look into ESG, we basically put all the non-financial information there, right? You will see companies who are putting in the whole composition of your staff, how many males, females, what kind of levels, et cetera. You have a lot of details. So it almost gets overwhelming in that whole load of information. And that's why getting these global reporting requirements is also going to help because once you have those requirements, it makes it much more easier and clear how you will communicate on these specifically. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, one of the things you touched on there is internal sort of stakeholders as well. So many years ago, I worked in a corporate and the thing I remember is employees were fairly cynical about what their employers were saying and it's really critical as we've talked about to have employees come along on this journey so how do you ensure that transparency isn't just on the outside is also on the inside as well

SPEAKER_01:

yeah i think two things right first of all i think you need to be authentic and general around this right because you can't fake your way through this right especially if you really want to be a leader within sustainability, you need to be transparent internally and externally. This is about embedding sustainability and ESG in everything you do, right? You can't just pick one area and say, oh, I'm going to do everything on this, but all the other things I don't care about. You can't just say, I'm gonna focus on climate, but I don't care about social, I don't care about governance and et cetera. You need to find that right balance. It might be that for your organization, a specific topic is much more relevant than the others, which is absolutely fair. However, you can't just ignore everything else. So I think it's important that you, if you start your journey with saying that, you know, we will try to embed sustainability in everything we do, it's going to take a long time. It's a journey, right? We can't do everything at the same time. We will prioritize that our first priority is going to be one, two, three. Our next priority is going to be ABC. And then we're going to prioritize seven, eight, nine. You make this roadmap and say, how are we going to prioritize these things? I think that's very important. The second part is how do you include your employees as part of this journey? is critical, right? And I think as a part of this journey, it's very important to say you need to start by raising awareness of your employees on these topics, right? Maybe start some training to say, what does ESG mean? What does ESG mean for our organization? What is it that we are planning to do? How is it that we will bring you as part of this journey? It might be that we're going to have a webinar where we are going to share some of our different learnings in this organization. It might be that we have taken one of our products and made it more sustainable. Lego is a good example. When we look at these Lego plastic bricks, they have managed to make them more sustainable over time. You basically say the focus is going to come from specifically our product or the focus is going to come from making sure that all our employees understand what this means in our company's context. And then it's very much about having these different initiatives you can participate in. Because community engagement, what previously CSR, as we know it, corporate social responsibility has become a key thing. We have so many companies globally who provide voluntary offers to their employees. They say, okay, you know, you go and do some voluntary work. So we offer you five hours a month or two hours a month where you can go and support a voluntary initiative and we'll be paying for it. So there are so many good examples of these, and you need to make sure that you're bringing your employees into this. And instead of next time choosing a random CSR initiative, try to link it to the work you do. So let's assume that you work in a company or a sector where plastic waste has been a focus area. in your company is trying to reduce this through the packaging and figure out how we can do more sustainable packaging and so on. Maybe an initiative you should participate in is beach cleanups, right? Where you try to remove all the plastics and so on. So your employees actually go out there and make a difference. But at the same time, they understand that how much plastic we have in the oceans, how we are seeing beaches being over flooded with plastic. Suddenly they can start relating to, oh, this is why We are having sustainable packaging as a priority. So it's also a question of how do you link these things together? And I think that's very important. An example I mentioned in the book, Dave, is this very popular commercial that Apple came out with. If you remember Mother Nature. people, general public, they loved the video, right? They said, oh, this is really innovative from Apple. They have really tried to break it down to something that everybody can understand and so on. And at the same time, you had a lot of subject matter experts who really criticized and accused it for greenwashing and et cetera. So there were mixed feelings on this. But for me, I think that I'm not going to take either side. I can argue both cases, right? What I thought was very important was that the communication was actually happening. You try to be bold. You try to go out there and say, we will try to be transparent. This is how we are highlighting these things as well. And I think this is the most important case, right? And then you try to say, how do we bring our employees part of this? Because what we're discussing in this book is how do you set your ESG strategy? Then I think that the next phase when you have set your strategy, which is critical, is how do you create a culture that focuses on ESG? because we have this famous quote that I think most people know, culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And it is so true in this case as well, that you can have the best strategy in the world, but if you don't manage to bring your stakeholders part of this, if you don't manage to create a culture in your organization that is focusing on sustainability and ESG across the organization, it's not going to happen. And I'm not saying that All of your 10,000 employees or 50,000 employees or 500 employees should know everything about ESG, but they should know why is ESG important for our organization? Why is it that we are prioritizing it? And what is it that I can do of small things that can help this? This is how you start building that culture. And that is why that communication internally and externally is so, so critical. And again, I would say that your priority should probably be internal communication first. Bring your employees on board, get the buy-in from them, and then you expand it externally with this transparent communication towards all your stakeholders.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's really, you're totally right. I mean, I think as a species, we're Finally tuned to recognizing authenticity. I would summarize this as you have to be authentic about your strategy. It won't have an impact if it isn't authentic. And in order to be authentic, your actions have to match the sort of vision, don't they? But equally, you have to then be transparent about how you kind of communicate that. And particularly in this sort of very social media world, authenticity, we can all smell when things are not quite right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think you will always have the risk. And especially on the topic of ESG, as I said, it's an emerging topic. It's a topic that has got a lot of focus on short time. There's been a lot of criticism that the world is not doing enough, that companies are not doing enough, countries are not doing enough. I think it's important to remember that in the world of social media we live in, it's very easy for people to go and accuse you for something. But this is not only on ESG. This happens on customer satisfaction. This happens on financial results and et cetera. We just live in a world where your actions, as long as you believe this is the right thing to do for your company, for all your relevant stakeholders, this is how you can contribute to this. That is the critical aspect. And I think you as an organization always need to figure out, are we doing the right thing here? It's almost like creating your moral compass as a company, just like you have it on compliance matter, financial matters, etc. You need to build that compass on sustainability as well, which is going to help you guide, are we doing the right thing in this situation? Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, final chapter is about partnerships and collaboration. And I'm interested because from your perspective, you can't really achieve sustainability goals without partnerships and collaboration. Can you kind of just talk a bit about your thoughts on that? Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

absolutely. I think I make a very bold statement in the book that achieving sustainability or executing an ESG strategy without partnership and collaboration is not possible. The reason I say this is that by doing actions by yourself, it can get you some part of the way on your sustainability journey. But if you really want to come to a point where you have truly embedded ESG and sustainability into your organization, where companies join you because you have credentials on sustainability, where you want to attract the best talent who is focusing, whose values are focused around sustainability and ESG, you need to make sure that you are doing it in the partnership and collaboration with multiple others, right? Because again, we've got to remember that ESG and sustainability is a topic that, you know, we cannot achieve by myself and my company itself or Dave, your company by itself becoming more sustainable is not going to change the world. But if all of us start changing, we can create that change, right? It's a little bit same on the climate change discussion that if I remove my emissions and come to net zero, well, that's great. But if everybody else doesn't, well, what impact did I make? It's not like that the flooding will not hit my company specifically, right? Or it's not gonna be that the nature catastrophe will go around my company because I achieved net zero. It doesn't work like that, right? We are part of a much bigger a setup in this case where we all need to make that change and that change is easier and faster through collaboration and partnerships. Partnerships and collaborations come at multiple different levels, right? It might be that you can collaborate and partner with your local school. It can be that you can partner and collaborate with a university. It can be that you can collaborate with somebody else within your industry or outside that industry, right? You need to create an ecosystem where you can really look and leverage into this. Going back to the company we just discussed, who's focusing on sustainable packaging, right? If that's the case, partner with an NGO that is focusing on beach cleanups and removing plastic for the oceans, or they could partner with a company who's thinking of climate tech solutions that is gonna help for sustainable packaging. How do we bring those innovations into this? And that's why having this ecosystem of partnership and collaboration is critical. The business community has been used to doing this for years and years. The only thing in order to have a successful execution of ESG strategy, it's critical to have partnership and collaboration as a key focus area. Because you won't get very far without establishing some partnerships, collaborations, etc. Because there are so many you can learn from, and there's so much knowledge you can pass on to others, which actually makes us all get to our goal much faster. Because I think what is unique about ESG is that we all have the same North Star, right? We want to become a more sustainable company. We want to achieve net zero, or we want to be a socially responsible company. While when you look and do some of the financial targets, we have different industries, different companies have different kinds of targets. But end of the day on ESG, we overarching have the same ambition. So in order to get to that point, partnership and collaboration for me is critical to establish that ESG culture that will help you execute your ESG strategy in a faster and in more efficient and better way.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it's fascinating because I guess Because ESG is relatively new as well, you need to be talking to your competitors. You know, you work in a bank, you need to be talking to your competitors. So, you know, eventually you're all comparing everything apples for apples. So, you know, the basics of what a scope 1, 2, 3 mean to us all, which means you've got to have dialogue around all of these things, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. We need sector solutions as well, right? If we go back to this airline, you will never have one airline saying, oh, I'm going to only use sustainable aviation fuel. And all the other says, well, hang on a second. This doesn't make sense, right? Because first of all, we don't have enough sustainable aviation fuel. It's first time more expensive. The countries I operate in are not supporting these initiatives and so on. So how do we as an industry move there? Even if one successfully managed to implement sustainable aviation fuel, what happens with the other 95% of the airlines. So that's why you also need to have this collaboration to find these solutions as well. And when you look in some of the challenges we have, circular economy is a huge challenge. The focus on nature is a huge challenge for us. Decarbonization pathways are huge challenges for us. We have hard to abate sectors and we've seen sectors who have successfully trying to take some ownership. Shipping sector, again, a very hard to abate sector. We know that they need to be We need shipping for the trade of the future. And they have gone together as an industry for a long time to say, how can we try to decarbonize this industry? I'm not saying that they have succeeded or they have done the best they could, probably not. But I think it's important to remember that those industries coming together will be critical into making those transformations happen and to get that execution efficiently accelerated as well.

SPEAKER_02:

I think another great example is the technology industry. And every business has a technology footprint. The majority of businesses have a technology footprint now. That will have an impact on your reporting, won't it? And we're sort of moving into a world where we're getting more technology, not less technology. Absolutely. You know, some of the things I read about the amount of energy that AI is kind of soaking up and water and all these other bits. So you've got to Think about all of these sort of collaborations with technology companies so you understand what they're up to because it will ultimately impact you as your business.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And Dave, if you even look at, if you just for a second put aside the whole climate and ESG agenda and just look at AI in general, right? There are so many companies out there. We know that AI is going to be critical, right? I think what we have seen in the past two years of development in AI is probably the biggest technology advancement the world has ever seen, right? And probably in the past 200 years. So there are companies, 100,000 companies out there who are trying to find a way how they can embed AI into their setup, And who are they running out to speak with? Probably the top 10 technologies companies in the world, right? They will try to establish a partnership to say, okay, within my industry, within my company, how can I optimize use of AI, right? So it gets faster. I use it in the best possible way. My customers benefit from it. My financials benefit from it and so on. So we are all dependent on this ecosystem of partnership. The reason we are doing this on AI is It's a new emerging technology. We all want to move. We want to move fast on this. I can argue exactly the same thing for ESG. A new emerging topic. Time is of essence. The best way to move there is through partnership and collaboration.

SPEAKER_02:

So I guess one thing that... You know, sometimes partnerships are kind of misaligned as well. So, you know, going back to that whole thing about transparency and making sure that the communication is good. In sort of partnerships, do you make sure that there is no misalignment or try and minimize the misalignment?

SPEAKER_01:

I think just like in every other partnership agreement, it's very much about being transparent. It's very much about setting some very clear goals and ambitions for this partnership, setting some, what we'll say, milestones of this partnerships as well, right? So what is it that we want to achieve? What are the milestones we're setting for this partnership to be success? And what does success look like? But I also think it's very important to acknowledge not all of your partnership will be successful. I don't have a percentage for how many of them fail, but I think it's okay for partnerships to fail because as you're maturing on this journey, you might also figure out the speed between us is different or you might define to move into different directions. I think it's important to recognize that in the current times, we also see a lot of businesses and companies changing their business models, right? Because suddenly, as we discussed, AI comes in and is changing the whole business model of this company. And what does this mean, right? If you used to be a newspaper, I'm assuming that AI is a tool that is going to really help journalists going forward. That's at least my assumption. If that is the case, what does the future business model look like? That will have an impact on the journal collaboration and partnerships within that industry. ESG is no different than that, right? So you will have faith or misalignments, and I wouldn't see them being a failure. I just see that it's a part of a natural development through your ESG journey, but also through your company's journey as you mature and as you move along your business model that you figure out that this partnership did not work and then move on to something else, which partnership at that time is more fitted from that perspective. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, listen, thank you so much. It's been an amazing conversation over a long period of time. So I really appreciate you being very open and kind of transparent in terms of what you've discussed. I wondered if there's anything that you'd like to do by way of a conclusion, any just real top advice for companies out there who want to embark on this journey?

SPEAKER_01:

First of all, Dave, thank you so much for these conversations. I truly enjoyed them. I think we managed to have some great discussions around ESG sustainability. We've gone from industry to industry. I think the top advice I will give is that it's important that you get started on your ESG journey, right? Whether you're sitting out there as an employee of a big company, as a small company, are you a decision maker? Are you an expert within sustainability? Are you not? Is it just a topic that is interesting? Are you a student who's looking into it? Then explore the topic, right? ESG is going to touch every single person in this world in some type and form at some point in the not too distant future if it's not already doing so. So I think I would just urge everyone to explore this topic, get started on your own journey or work with your colleagues or whoever in your organization that is working on it and say, you know, how can you support, how can you play a part as part of this journey? I hope that people will take the time to buy the book and have a look at it and see how they can take these small steps. There's a lot of examples that I've put in there. I wrote this book basically to make sure that It was useful for everyone. So whether you are part of a big company, if you're not, if you're just, you know, very focused or have any interest in sustainability, you can read this book. I hope that a lot of people will take the time to read through the book or at least now also listen to these podcasts. The books is available on Amazon, all the normal platforms where you can buy your books. So it's available there. It's available both in ebook format, but also in hard copies. The only reason I wrote this book was that I just wanted to share this information. I've committed that all money coming out of this book, I'll be donating to an NGO that focuses on sustainability. So for me, it's just about sending out this message, sharing the knowledge that I have been privileged to get to know through my job, through my role, and share that across with a lot of people out there. And if people have any questions or anything, they can reach out to me through LinkedIn. My profile is out there and people can reach out. And I'm happy to always have a conversation on the topic of sustainability. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Dave. Appreciate all your support and time.

SPEAKER_00:

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