Jennifer French Tomasic MSc on Coercive Control S2 E3

In this powerful episode of The Romance Scam Rebellion, Anola sits down with Jennifer French Tomasic MSc, a psychologist and expert in coercive control, to explore one of the most insidious psychological dynamics behind manipulation and abuse.

Jennifer shares her deep expertise — rooted in both academic study and lived experience — including her MSc in the Psychology of Coercive Control and her work as a trauma practitioner and expert witness.

Together, they unpack:

• What coercive control really means — beyond just “abuse” or “manipulation”
• How patterns of undue influence and power imbalance show up in relationships, cults, and high-control environments
• Why intelligent, confident people fall deeper into deception than they ever expected
• The psychological and emotional mechanics that keep victims trapped
• How to recognize the signs early — before it’s too late

This conversation bridges the worlds of romance scam psychology and the broader terror of coercive control. It offers practical insight and compassion for anyone trying to make sense of manipulation in their relationships — whether romantic, familial, or institutional.

If you’ve ever wondered why people stay in harmful dynamics long after the red flags appear, this episode provides clarity and context.
 Welcome to a deeper understanding of how control works — and how to break free.

Transcript

 Hey everybody. I'm just gonna jump in here quickly and let you know that the first few minutes we experienced some audio video difficulties, but it gets better quickly, so hang in there. Thank you. I'm so excited to introduce you to Jennifer French. She is a psychologist with a master's degree in psychology of coercive control, specializing in helping survivors of cults and high control relationships.

She knows this subject better than probably anybody else on Earth after spending 11 years in a cult herself before leading in 2012, and here's why I wanted to talk to her. The tactics used in cults, the psychological manipulation, the isolation, are the exact same tactics romance scammers use. Jennifer now works with survivors.

She's a certified clinical trauma professional, and she hosts the Project HOPE Podcast. She's made it her life's work to understand how coercive control operates. How people can break free. And Jennifer, I know that you are continuing your education. Welcome to the Romance Scam Rebellion. I'm really glad that you're here.

Thank you so much. Tell us what you're continuing your education in, and then if you can tell us a little bit about your story, that'd be great. Yes. So thank you so much for having me an Ola. I'm really happy to be with you. So yes, education. I'm currently in a PhD program. It's located in San Diego at Alliant University.

It's psychology, policy and law. So I'll graduate as a forensic psychologist in 2028. And I realize, actually the other thing that might be interesting for the audience to know, because I think it will probably come up in our discussion, is that another component of my business that's a pretty large component of the work that I do.

Is in the family court systems representing as an expert witness in different court cases. So while I've done that for certain cases that are more around group dynamics and cults, I've done a case also representing thirty three survivors of the troubled teen industry. So kids that were sent to these schools that were abusive, but primarily, I would say almost 85% of the cases that I do are high conflict divorce custody cases where there's really, really intense stuff happening within family units.

And so of course most of my clients I have had both male and female clients, but most of my clients, I'm representing women who have withstood incredible abuse. And even just sometimes nonviolent abuse, which we tend to label as coercive control. And we say in the field, the best coercive controllers are the ones that never need to hit, right?

Because they are so good at the manipulation that there's no reason for any sort of violence in the relationship. They can add exactly what they want to get without that. So that's what we're looking at in the court systems. And what I do is I basically look at all the court documents I wrote at courts and deep in all the files, the medical records, that kind of stuff, and really gain some insight into both the perpetrator and the victim.

And so I wanted to just bring that up because. A lot of what we're gonna be talking about today, I bet we'll weave into and relate to some of these principles that I am speaking to when I'm in a courtroom. So these are really, really important things, and as you said, Anola, that you're interested in also a discussion and kind of exploration around some of the connection points between cults versus a one to one experience.

And it's just so fascinating because I would say as an overview, you have all kind of, the principles of persuasion or undue influence at play got certain tactics of coercive control at play in both environments. So the love bombing, the gaslighting, those types of behaviors. But then with the cults, you have the group dynamic.

And so it's really interesting that kind of distinction between the isolation that happens with the one-to-one experience versus in the larger group dynamics. Which, of course the group dynamic itself is going to be used to control end oppress. There's so, so many elements that cross over in these dynamics. And as you know, the other thing that kind of just popped into my mind that I could comment on is that in a cult, you most often have a cult leader and you've got a leader that you're attached to, and very much that becomes a parallel symbol to the love, romance relationship.

And if you're not in love with your cult leader. You're probably attached to somebody who's in the higher ranks with them, but there's always that attachment happening. And at the same time, there's the attachment happening and then there's the break happening, the severing, right? So in this scam environment, when your lover is now distant for a period of time, you just provide this so beautifully.

It's like the mind's starting to go, oh no, what did I do wrong? And how can I help him more? And what's happening? That panic of the loss. Mm-hmm. And in a cult environment, there is a constant threat that if you are not up to par with whatever the expectations are, so it might be spiritual practices in a political group, it might be going door to door and canvassing.

Your numbers that you get there, in a case with NXIVM of like executive success programs, it's gonna be how many people did you get into the programs? And different things for different people too, right? It varies very significantly depending on whoever's in control, what they want to play with and each individual to manipulate them.

And they're seeing different, right? We're all different. So it's gonna be different things for each person. I noticed this interesting kind of parallel that I had with you where, when you were speaking about the second kind of round of involvement with the gentleman that you had mm-hmm. And how. What one is trying to resolve in that and even the empowerment of taking something back again and how this dynamic of going away and coming back is something that really keeps people attached.

And it's a, it's an interesting one, I think, because to me it's one of the more insidious, harmful, malevolent, manipulations, really playing with people's feelings, right? And their attachment to whatever they love. Right? Maybe the person, it might be the practice, it might be their whole community, but that you're really playing with that.

One thing that I do want you to identify is what you call coercive control, because a lot of people probably haven't heard this before, so can you give us a explanation of that, what that means? Yeah, so coercive control is really a pattern of behavior. That piece is important, right? Because we're not looking at single incidents, we're tracking patterns, and these are patterns of behavior that are really designed to isolate, to put down, to remove autonomy from an individual.

And this takes place over time. So they essentially land in a place where they often describe it as a shell of themselves and often the self-confidence is eroded. And this takes place through all different types of tactics. So it could be, I think I mentioned like the isolation, but economic control. So women, especially in one-to-one relationships where they have no autonomy really over the money or the bank account, everything that they're using is being monitored.

They don't have any money of their own, and that can all get twisted as well. So I don't mean to make it so simple, right? Because then there are actually coercive controllers that live off of women that make all the money for the family. So there are nuances to all of this, but the economic control is usually a big one.

So some sort of financial control, the isolation is one of the ones that really is designed to entrap the individual. So that's where the abuser is basically either directly providing messages to their victim that they can't hang out with friends or family, or go out with colleagues or things like that.

Or what they'll do is they'll speak the words that you can, but then just before you're about to go out, they'll make it such that you cannot. I've had women say to me, that happened to me so many times that I just gave up and started to not make plans. Kind of hiding it from family and friends because what are you gonna say?

Yeah. And again, these are themes certainly that would tie into some of your experience Anola of the more you're feeling like something's wrong with you. Or something might be wrong in your case, something might be wrong with the relationship. Mm-hmm. The more you start to hide from family and friends, what's going on?

This is classic abuse. Classic, right. And the people you know who love you are gonna say something, but psychologically you're not ready or you're just too deep in, you know, all those things. And actually friends and family tend to pick up on it pretty quickly. I always say that if we as friends and family can really pay attention to the signs, or one of the first lines of protective defense, right.

When I got into my group right away, my family knew something was off in a way that I couldn't see and they actually pretty immediately tried to move in there and it all just happened so quickly for me that I just rebelled. And similar to the one-to-one relationships there are, there's the love bombing that happens.

So meeting all these new people and how beautiful it is. And I do say to this day, some of my best friends are still people who were in that group. My husband, who I'm married to, was in that group. And so we always kind of laugh about it and say, well, at least that for us in our scenario was the silver lining, that we really did meet these wonderful people and there has been longevity there.

Let me ask you a question though, 'cause I'm a little confused. I thought at the end when you were getting out of the cults, you had already split from your then husband, but I see one now. Did you guys get back together? No. So actually we split, yeah. And ended, and then I ended up getting together with a man who had also been in the same group who had been a dear friend of mine, his wife had been a dear friend of mine.

I knew the kids really well, and basically when they got out, their relationship started to crumble. And so then we ended up exploring. We kind of knew if we opened that door it was gonna be pretty serious. So that has been huge gifts. And I always say really also because of his ex-wife, who I had been friends with as well, that's never easy when somebody who you know is now with your partner.

And really because of her, she just wanted everything to be good. And she loves us. She loves me, she loves my husband, she loves those kids. And so we've just been so lucky to have kind of a big, blended family and everything. Just being so nice and loving between all of us. We really are all in a partnership together.

That's nice. It didn't sound like that there was any animosity between you and your first husband, though. You still keep in touch with him? Touch or, actually, good question. Not really. There's just, it's just fizzled in terms of communication. But yeah, everything, probably not much reason. I do remember as I was getting in deeper with Pedro, that I would tend more on my own to keep it to myself because I figured if I said something and then it didn't happen, that people would question me.

Like he was supposedly gonna come home and I was gonna introduce him during my family reunion, which is in July. And I said, okay, I've gotta make sure that my sister has room for us up at her place. And he says, oh, don't tell her. Let's surprise her. And I said, well, I gotta make sure so that there's room and he is going, okay.

But then of course he never came. And I think I did tell her, but she was one of the few people that knew about the relationship at all. Her, and then my girlfriends. And I wasn't telling them everything because I must have known that something was wrong with this, but I didn't want to admit it to myself and I wouldn't want them to point that out to me.

Right. So I guess I just put myself in a little cocoon until the point where I couldn't really anymore. Right. And that. It's a thing that can happen very slowly too, right? And then all of a sudden when you need support, you don't really have it in the same way. Yeah. So that's a bit scary. But that is for me, number one, if you can't tell anybody about the relationship that you're having, if you can't tell anybody what's going on, the people who know you, who love you, if you can't tell them, then there's definitely something wrong.

Right, right. And did you, how did you isolate from your family? So this is really interesting, kind of the different ways, actually, that this happens in a cult versus a one-to-one relationship. So in my group, what happened specifically within the context of me, but then I'll go into the group. I came into the group and the leaders knew right away that I was very close with my family.

I think that was something that kind of defined me as opposed to maybe some of the other members of the group that I had a very tight family. We traveled a lot together, we spent a lot of time together. We actually liked each other, so there was a lot of harmoniousness there and closeness. Mm-hmm. And with my story, the reason, like I always say to everybody, the biggest pain point of my story ends up being that while I had 11 years in there, I did not speak to my family for eight years, which anyone who knows me now or then would just be shocked by that.

You know, just doesn't make any sense at all. So. What's fascinating is how quickly that process happened. And what happened for me was that I think as soon as I got in, they identified that I had that close relationship. So the leaders knew right away they were gonna have to start to break that apart in order to have any real control over me.

I felt that happening right away, and I actually didn't like it, but it was all couched in the promise, right? The carrot that's being dangled and the carrot that was being dangled for me, which in even in the same group, the carrot can be a little different for different people, right? So in my group, which was a mystical Christian group, there was also a real hierarchy.

So certain people may have actually stayed in and were attracted to rising up and the power of the hierarchy. Others were attracted to the hierarchy because they really believed it meant that they were spiritually evolved. And that was really the whole goal, right? So many people coming in going, I have elements of pain in my life and this is going to my connection with God and Jesus and Mother Mary is what is going to render me.

Enlightened, really like walking through the world, having no inner challenges, right? Knowing how to move and deal with everything. A real peace and, and so what was interesting in my scenario is that although the family tie was so tight, I had already really been a seeker. When I landed in this group and I landed skeptically too, I was expecting the first thing that I showed up at, I was expecting to walk into a big lecture room and it was actually somebody's house.

And the snooty New York part of me was just like, what the heck is this? Like this is some low budget, something weird that's happening. Yeah. So I'd, in this beautiful home, there was a chapel and there were rooms, and it was all set up for this kind of experiential seminar. And two things happened for me there.

One was I was in pain about something and I decided to bravely raise my hand and ask these two brilliant priest master teachers for a friend of mine, what they would say. And what happened in that interaction was that it really was a vulnerable question for me to ask. And it really did matter to me. It was about myself.

It was not about a friend. And the male leader looked at me and even in the look there was this transference of I see you and I am going to speak directly to you. And he did. And his answer, his response was like nothing I had heard before when this had been a major pain point that I had probably asked everybody about, what are your thoughts?

What's the solution? So on and so forth. So that really hit home and I felt like something just happened and it actually felt spiritual. Then the next thing that happened was that we broke off into these groups where people share and they share something personal. They sit on a chair, everybody sits around them in the small group, and then the priest touches their head, gives a blessing, and everybody else touches the body too.

So this whole thing's being described to me, and I was sitting there going, hell no, nobody's touching my body. Like what is this freaky process? You know? I was just honestly not into it. So I'm like, I may not participate in this. I'll just see what happens. The first person that sits down is this woman and she shares about her relationship with her husband and some challenges or something that's going on, and as I was sitting there, I had this experience where I saw two ribbons of light between her husband, like in her belly area, going out to her husband.

I was like, whoa, that was weird. They had told us, you just open to the spirit and let the spirit come through and it'll move in the way that it needs to move. And so I had this experience and I was like, oh, that was weird. I think I'll just keep that to myself. And then the woman on the chair shared and she described exactly what I had seen.

She was like, I had this experience of this light, like a figure eight between the solar plexus, between me and my husband, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, something's real here. Was it a trick? I think it was just one of those things that happens in the spirit or happens when you're open or, and it clicked.

And I had been a spiritual seeker before, so. There was something about that. And then having had that powerful experience, the next level was then all the promises around the spiritual and starting to grow in that way, and actually having experiences that were validating why I was there and what the future would hold.

And that's really how then I started to be so sucked in also with all of the language that they were using. And they had all of these, we have this term called thought terminating cliches, and they're things that are , think of them as almost like platitudes that we say that basically shut down critical thinking.

So even something like, oh, it is what it is. Or in a spiritual world, in the spiritual, it might be something like, oh, pray it away. So all these things get used to shut down critical thinking. So individuals in these groups, and you made a reference to this too, in your personal experience, it's like your own brain now has adopted all this language that the group has given you that's actually designed to shut down your critical thinking or to give you a think, a nugget to hold onto that might make you feel better for a few seconds when you're not feeling so good.

Yeah. Yeah. A little bump just to make sure you're still on the right path. And this is what you described where it's absolutely amazing, and I think it's a testament to both how flexible and neurobiologically healable, our brains are. And also how incredibly susceptible where you can just literally get into a state where your brain is now giving you the messages that you have been fed that aren't even yours.

To start to get yourself in line or teach yourself, or all the things to basically keep you trapped. Yeah. Ugh. Looking at it now, from the outside, isn't it crazy that we're able to be manipulated, allowed ourselves? I don't think we allowed ourselves, but they're just so good at what they do, right? That yes.

It just happens naturally and before you know it, your critical thinking is gone. It's like okay, what would you like me to think now? What would you like me to do next? You know? That's right. That's right. And actually part of what's happening there, which can be really interesting in, maybe you can relate to this in your situation, which may have a slightly different take than a one-to-one abusive relationship, but in the cult environment.

So what's interesting is that this kind of happens in these different environments, in slightly different forms where it can really take on like the spiritual messaging, and that's how you're soothing yourself and making it okay, the things that maybe you wouldn't feel okay. Mm-hmm. But in that process what's actually happening and as we're feeding ourselves messages that we think we're supposed to be feeding ourselves. So we're essentially brainwashing ourselves. Right? And as that happens, there's these elements of, so there's the high happening, right? Maybe in, in the group environment it's a spiritual high in the one-to-one environment, it's the romance high.

Mm-hmm. But that high is then also keeping you there. And I have often wondered and thought of, I think for everybody who's, at least in a group environment, it's always interesting to think about what it was that there, what was it that there was some sort of high, because I think if we can get to what that high is.

It starts to also show us where the cognitive dissonance was, where our brains, because we're all in these environments where our brains are not connecting the facts to reality, and it's because there's some break in the mind where those things just can't fit together. Because at that point, and you mentioned sunk cost fallacy, it's like now you have invested so much to this person that the thought to actually bring the mind to a space of imagining that it's not real is just, it's like it breaks the mind.

Yeah. It would mean that so much other things aren't real as well. It's not just about, oh my gosh, I being scammed and this money is gone. It's also , have I lost this person? Was this not even real? Then there's a loss of self-trust, or at least a questioning that one has to grapple with right around how did this happen and who am I in this?

Yeah, but what I will say to that, the who am I, is that, and I think this is really important. I know we, we touched on this a little earlier at one point, Anola, I think when you have individuals who truly are con artists, I think the truth is that we like to imagine that even as educated as one might be around all these dynamics, if it's the right con, you can know all there is to know and you're gonna get conned.

And here's why I think.  Because not only is it masterful, but normal people don't think that way. Also normal people can't imagine that somebody would be that horrible as to be just lying to harm somebody to get money and also to spend all that energy. Right. It's shocking. Yeah. So again, for the brain to even put that together, it so doesn't make sense to a normal person.

It makes sense to the con artists 'cause they actually see each other and can identify one another. That's why we see sometimes in these circles with the whole Jeffrey Epstein stuff, that's out where you hear other men being identified. Like the guy who ran one of the big fashion modeling companies and Epstein told Virginia Giuffre that when she had an orgy with six other girls who couldn't speak English, they were all given to him from this guy.

So these dynamics are happening. They're real. And especially when one is innocent, there's not even a molecule inside of us for something to land on that's gonna say, oh, if I get in this nice man's car who's promising me that he's gonna make me a fashionista and a runway model for his brand, that that would be a lie and I would end up being sex trafficked.

Yeah. And this is why these stories are important. This is why your podcast is important, right? Because the nuances of what's happening. Things get refined, right? The even the cult stuff is different now. The landscape is different. We're not just looking at a Jonestown or these yogis isolated on an island anymore.

We're now looking at online cults where people are becoming totally indoctrinated to just online. They've never even met the woman or seen the leader. And there was one that happened recently, I forget her name now, Liana someone I think. But she convinced all these moms to leave their marriages, take their kids and all go to a certain location. For what purpose? What I think her thing is a like spiritual empowerment vibe. So it's right for these women who, if they're gonna rise to whatever place they're supposed to rise, to achieve whatever they're supposed to achieve. This was the way to do it. Well, and you know, I'm from Utah, right? So we've got the just next door up in Idaho, the Lori Vallow story.

Yes, that one. And then the, that gal here, the recent one where her littles son was a skeleton and went to somebody for help. Oh, that was the Ruby Vallow and Ruby Frankie. Yes. Ruby Frankie. Yeah. So we've got our own and some older ones, I can't remember their names right now. But Utah has historically had some really standout interesting people. Very familiar with it. Yeah, I can very, yeah, I think when, back in the seventies or eighties, I was trying to think of their names, I can't remember right now, but one of the gals got her throat slit or something like that, all in the name of religion. So it's some pretty scary stuff out there. And is it that we fall into this because we're predisposed to trust other people, is that our big problem is that we trust?

That was another thing. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. That's the other thing that's so important, Anola is that we don't think the same way people think. And healthy individuals do tend to trust others, right? We can be skeptical, but when you think about a con, if there is that kind of planning and thoughtfulness around it.

It is very hard for someone to detect that the con is happening to them. Even with education, again, we can know these certain things, but it's very difficult because even after, I'm sure this is something that you've considered after your experience. Once you leave and you see clearly, it can be so shattering. It can just, it can break your whole world in certain ways that I think that makes it hard to leave. And it also is surprising how difficult it is when people get out, and I think people don't really realize that.

Especially if they've been in the spiritual groups where you're thinking like, oh, I've been elevated to these levels and I'm okay now. And then leaving is, well, usually you're also kicked out of these groups. Yeah. And that's that purposeful pull and tug that then it makes people want to get in. Right. Oh, I'm not good enough for the group.

So there it's an elitism that kind of draws them back. I did wanna touch on getting into the cult. I have heard that love bombing is a thing in the culture as well as the personal. And that kind of flabbergasted me because to me, the love bombing was just at me all day long, every day for months where he wanted a relationship with me supposedly.

But that seems, i t can't be the same way for cults, right? You don't have just one person at you all the time. So is it the whole group that's just like fawning over you for months? How does that work? Yeah, that's a great, great question. It can, of course, can vary, but what will typically happen is that when new people arrive, anybody who's established will just douse attention and curiosity.

And to some extent I think that's genuine for a lot of people. And then it gets picked up as one of those things that you're supposed to do, right? They're not gonna have to tell you to do it, but you see other people doing it. Okay, so you follow suit, okay. That's right. And then as you get into the ministry, it does become a part of your job to kinda be like shepherding these new people.

So you're gonna try to talk to them, you're gonna invite them to classes, you're going to try to get them in to hang out with the group. And then as that begins to happen, that's all a really positive experience typically for someone. Now, if they don't jive with your cults, they'll be like, get me out of here.

Right. That happens too. Does it? Mm-hmm. But it's like there's a right cult for everyone and if you look long enough you can find it. Don't say that. I know. So we do have to laugh at some things right Anola. Yeah. I really, it's either laugh or cry. I look at these, the religious cults, and it's, to me, that baffles me.

And I'm sure that what happened to me baffles other people, like how could she have been so stupid to fall for that? And you hear it all the time, but. People just don't understand the nuances. It's not like, come into my cult and we'll abuse you for years. It just doesn't happen that way. So people who haven't experienced this just have no clue.

And those are the ones really that are probably most at risk. Right? Because it couldn't happen to me because I see you doing it. And so I would never do that. That's exactly right. So it's interesting because Mark Vicente from NXIVM says, you never join a cult. You join a good thing, right? And then on the other side, you realize you're effed.

I don't know if we do swear words on this podcast or not, but that's actually the second half of his quote that nobody ever says. Oh, and then you realize you're really effed. Yeah. And the other side is true as well, where. I've actually heard Sarah and Nippy on their podcast a little bit, culty , I've heard them say numerous times, but the individuals that think it'll never happen to them are actually the ones at highest risk.

I don't know that I would definitively state that. Also, I'm a researcher, so I get very scientific about what I'm stating as kind of fact or not, but that's not the point, and that's what you were picking up on. It's like the truth is the best preventative medicine for getting into these things is actually simply the psychoeducation, like understanding the components of this.

Yeah. Which I know Anola you're gonna be introducing some of this in your season two. I've had the pleasure of being able to see her season one and two before the rest of the audience, and it's excellent because. This is where I think podcasts and film and these series are so helpful because when you can actually hear real people talking about it and you can hear like how you shared your story, you get to hear the unfoldment of it.

If you can travel the journey alongside somebody, you start to get it in a different way. For example, I don't know Anola if you've heard of the film that came out, the docuseries, this was a few years ago now. Bad Vegan, and I watched a few episodes of that. Okay. And I meant to go back and finish it, but I haven't.

Yeah, that's gonna be an interesting one for you to watch. You are gonna see so many parallels. But I think it's so neat that they captured it. They, I don't like what they did at the end of the film, I have to say. I feel like they twisted where Sarma was at. So I'll just put that out there that I, okay.

Have to go back and re-watch Not that they, they made, they did a weird thing at the end where they make it sound like she's reconnecting with him, which, you know, so anyway. Yeah. But, but otherwise I felt like it was done so well because you're on this journey and you start to understand with the language and the intensity of what's happening and that they need the money right away, but it totally makes sense that they do, they're wheelers and dealers, they're men with a lot of money and so it really shows you how easily we can be taken.

You just would never imagine that somebody who appears to have a lot of money and is an upstanding citizen and is part of this organization and this organization would be lying to little old you about whatever it is. Yeah. So I really think the docuseries and things like this that are actually educating the public where we can see how it's happening, see people going along in the process and how that actually happens.

And that's what I tried to do in season one. It was like, I want to bring you along the journey with me so that you can see it wasn't just a quick flash in the pan thing. The first one was over nine months, right? And then after the second one happened, just as devastating. But as I'm getting into season two, I'm finally being able to put terms, psychological terms, and greater understanding as to why it happened.

And some of the things that we can do to stop it. If you're going down this path, there's only so many steps you can take before you fall into that big old rabbit hole, right? You've got to know that there's something going on there. In fact, I recently did a thing for a committee. I called it the Seven Deadly Signs, like You're on the path to a romance scam.

But if you cross this last one, and really what it is, it's the love bombing. If you allow those words to get into your brain, you just don't really understand that they don't mean it. I'm falling in love while he is just trying to get all my information from me. And how sadistic is that? That's right.

Right. I didn't know people could be so horrible. Right. I really didn't. Now I do. Well, your sentiment there is what almost everyone who experiences coercive control feels at the end of it. Like how did that happen? Yeah. I think the other thing is that it's not an easy thing to explain in a sentence, right?

There's so much going on. Like I was saying in the beginning, it's like in the group dynamic, there are the principles of persuasion that are going on. You definitely were experiencing some of those. Those are like Cialdini's principle of reciprocity that when you give to somebody, then they're more likely to give back or the opposite, which is another of his principles.

Under like the commitment consistency where when you give, then you are actually more likely to give again. Yeah. Right. You mentioned that one That is whoa to, and all these things, the con artists, they know this information actually, which is, I think as time has gone on, the more individuals that I've met that are con artists, cult leaders, one-to-one, con artists, all of that whole spectrum, they have a very selfish agenda.

And it's always gonna be about that. And they're really strategic and they learn about this kind of stuff. Like the cult leaders study, the cult leaders, the con artists study the cons. Yeah. So they really get good at this stuff. And they read these books and understand some of these principles, right? You see these even on the internet in terms of sales.

This like scarcity principle, only one left and then you wanna buy it. Or like the scarcity could also apply to an individual, right? Like he's leaving all the time. So now you want him more. Yeah. Yeah. It's like also just regular psych principles of likability that people who we like or are attracted to off the bat, were more likely to listen to and follow.

Yeah. It's interesting when you really think about the internet too and just how available all that stuff is and all those principles are at play. It has desensitized us to that feeling weird. Right. To when we're in a group and somebody puts pressure on us, we're desensitized to that because we're always seeing only one left quick.

Here's a countdown. You only have this much time. Doesn't that remind you of Pedro being like, this has to be done now? No, this what's happened immediately. The urgency. Creates, yeah. It's like the sooner I get this money, the sooner I can come home and I needed him to come home so he could pay me my money back.

So you just keep giving and giving and hope that somehow you're gonna get that money back. And of course I thought that I would. He showed me his bank account. He showed me how much money he had in his bank. So I thought, well, this is not gonna be a problem. Isn't it amazing, really? Who would think this stuff up?

So tell us about when you started questioning more and how you finally decided that you needed to leave these people. What were your thought processes here?

It was a really interesting process for me because I would say that kind of in alignment probably was my personality. Although I was very loyal and stayed for a very long time, I really cared about what was true. And so the first break for me happened when I identified that the teachers had done something to all of us, that was manipulative.

And basically it had happened around my ex who had left and they basically, we were all in a priest meeting and they policed to us. He has gone and has recruited this other priest brother and has told him all this stuff to poison him. And now this other priest brother is leaving too because your ex went and talked to him and blah, blah, blah.

I had actually been having some communication with my ex. And he had already spoken to me about that visit, and he had said to me, I was so cautious to not put anything on them or to let them have their process. So I believed him and I knew we were all so about integrity, right? He wasn't gonna lie to me.

I just knew him and knew he wouldn't. When that happened, and I knew what the flavor of that meeting was, and then we all had this priest meeting and the leaders were so harsh about my ex, and it was the first time they started to use this language like he's now of the devil. He's been taken over by darkness, you know, very extreme stuff.

And I'm sitting here going, but I know he didn't do what you're accusing him of doing. And so it was my first moment. It was like the first moment where I went. That's actually not true. And I spoke up about it and in the group, and this is sort of interesting, I'll just say this little part, because of the group dynamic, the teachers target particular things about each person in the group according to what will basically keep them in the way that the teacher wants.

So for me, my conclusion was I think there was always something between me and the male teacher where I felt so much love for him and I felt like he really loved me. I totally bought it, that it was sincere and real. He even made me feel a little kind of special. Like I felt like I was a special one. And so what was interesting for me was that in the breakup process.

I had that bond with him that was really strong. And when I brought this up it was, so sorry. Back to the flavor of how they work with everybody differently. So I suspect that with me, the flavor of what they did with me was love, because they actually knew that if I was experiencing love, it was what would keep me there being really challenged or put down.

I may have been like, yeah, no thanks. Whereas other people were really abused. We did the whole group confession and you confess something and then you're labeled that and everybody knows it, and this is people's deepest, darkest stuff, right? Yeah. So, that's the principle of confession, basically in the unhealthy environment is that confession is then used to harm or keep people trapped.

So I think that they knew that for me, love was gonna be the way, and that's what kept me there and that's what kept me happy there. That's what kept me not doubting or thinking and living in eight years of bliss until my ex-husband was the one that started to have thoughts. And in this kind of break that he had, I went through that with him because I knew in that environment I knew that he was gonna be leaving.

These were doubts. That were scientifically based, right? He was an ER doctor, so he actually, he, I remember being totally freaked out by this, but I actually walked into the room that he was sleeping in and the entire walls were covered with Post-Its, and it was his whole methodological argument for why we were in a cult.

It was like he was trying to figure it out and he was researching it, and so he introduced me to all of that, and I knew if I didn't listen to him, that either I was gonna be leaving with him or I would never be allowed to be with him, and we would get divorced and I would stay. Those were my only two options, and I knew that, so I basically tried on what he showed me.

He was showing me articles, he was showing me ex members of Scientology who had left, who were speaking to Congress. And I was like, whoa, yeah, there's some familiar stuff here. And that was really, I think where some the clouds started to part a little. But I can also tell you that in that I'll never forget that few days before the whole priests body came together, knowing that I was now struggling in my three days with my ex going through this process.

And they literally paid for a flight, had somebody come to the place, pick me up like an abduction, bring me to the retreat center. So I was away from the devil, and then they could work magic with me, which of course worked. And I stayed for another kind of three or so months, until it was like the little cloud had just been removed.

Some little film that was, there was a little more transparency now, and I wanted to be sure that I was in something that was true. And so when that little break happened, I raised my hand in the priest meeting and I said to them, that's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened because I actually spoke with Michael a

day or two ago, so I know what happened. And he was actually very respectful of these guys' process and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was the first time ever, and I saw this happen to other people all the time, but not to me, where I was basically ripped apart, like how naive and ridiculous I am. He's the one that's poisoned. Now

I've been poisoned by him just went to town on me, and I'll tell you, something broke for me there. Like I actually felt it inside. Something broke where I was like, Nope, this is not good. Something's gonna happen now. I could feel it . And then that initiated my active process that literally, that was one night.

The next day I got on the phone with my ex. I drove off the property. I asked him three questions. I can't even now remember what they were, but I knew they were three questions that would help me validate if what the teachers were telling me was true or false. I validated that they were liars, and I knew, and then I was done.

That's all I needed. I knew I was done, and there was no temptation for me to stay. But then I went to bed that night. I wanted to leave in like an appropriate way where I'm going, I'm making this decision. I'm saying goodbye to everyone. Love y'all y'all's. Look me up if you want to, but of course it always has to be massive drama.

And basically I was engaging in a process with the teachers via email. I went to a class. I had this major spiritual experience of lightness. Honestly, it felt like in the trauma that I was in, I was given this beautiful moment, this gift of what you have inside of you that's good, it's real, and it's yours and everything's gonna be okay.

Everything is gonna okay and you need to do this. And I didn't even know all the reasons why yet. Like I didn't know anything about what was actually happening to me and what was going on. That all came way afterward. But it was a whole big dramatic thing. And basically. I had a very odd experience. I'm sure there's some, I'd love to speak to a neuro Scientologist about this.

I had this odd experience where as soon as the wheels of my car hit the street, got off the property, I had this bizarre experience where it was like seeing all these different little scenarios that were manipulative, coercive, mean, rejecting, all those things, all came in this way that kind of went like this Anola it was like,

like that speed just fitting together in puzzle pieces. It was so weird. I don't know what that was, but it was like, okay. I was given a gift of knowing for sure that when I made that decision, it was done for me and I knew it was, I knew. I had no fear of any temptation to go back or to question. I saw it clearly and right away, and I don't know why or how that happened, but then of course there was a massive, massive, massive learning.

And I will say I am still learning, right? Not only am I still learning maybe about cool psychological principles, but still myself, these weird things that'll happen where like an example I could give. Two years ago, my husband and I were gonna go run errands in the morning on a Saturday. The errands ended up just being one of those weird situations where it was like we did his shirts at the laundrymat and his stuff here, and I was like, at the end I was like, shoot, none of mine worked out, right?

So we just did all these errands, but I didn't get anything personally accomplished. And I'm walking up the stairs and I'm feeling so weird and I sat down and I was like, I feel off balance right now and distressed what is happening? And Anola I realized this is my OCS bullshit, where I am not of value if I am not productive, and it seeped in to a little Saturday morning routine with my husband, right?

That is one of the lingering things for me is having to check myself on my level of productivity, and especially being in like a PhD program where I could be working all the time. I really have to sort that like, yes, I can celebrate when I'm done with an assignment, but also this is not who I am and I'm receiving this amazing gift of this education.

It's not who I am. And if I need time to just relax for a night and hang out with family, that's okay. But it's like sometimes I have to talk myself. Overachiever. Yeah. I didn't have that before that group. Oh, wow. Because that group was definitely that way. Really high, high, high performance. Every thought of yours is critiqued and should be perfect.

It's like the teachers would come into town and they would evaluate the cleaning job that we did. So they'd look around and Peter would put his finger on the baseboard and see dust and the whole rest of the afternoon post workshop, we would all be on our hands and knees having to properly clean.

Learning from him how to properly clean baseboards. Wow. With him standing over, you tell you how to do that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He might get on his knees and do it a once over first because he fancies himself to be a hard worker. Did you feel anger towards this group after you left, after you were able to process?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Let me tune back into kind of the anger journey. It's so inside of myself that I knew I had to enlist as a part of my healing process, which was all the rails are off. I get to fully explore myself. I get to fully explore. Do I still love Jesus? Do I prefer Mother Mary? Because now I get to choose, right?

It was a part of my empowering reclamation. Do I even believe in God anymore? What am I afraid of? Because. I didn't, in that group, I didn't question certain things because I was afraid I might find out it wasn't true. Right. You can relate. Oh yeah. So now the way I live life, I never do that. Or I try, right?

What? I might have unconscious areas, but I am a full blown, give me all the arguments, give me all the sides. I might know what I want. If you challenge me and you change my opinion, great. Mm-hmm. But I'm not afraid of ideas and opinions and even within my field, right? Like even within kind of a feminist field around what's happening to women in the family court system, there are distinct parties of thoughts around how people are approaching that.

And right now I'm just going, I'm just open. I wanna hold all the approaches and see them, watch them. Where do they fall out? Why do I have to align with one thing at the expense of other things? Yeah. Right. So I live life that way now, and I find that that sets me free. I feel, honestly, if I didn't do that, also probably Anola the uptight part of me would probably be more uptight.

You know? I think that came a little from that. It's like in all the perfectionist stuff. Then I actually liked it and I've worked well with it in a lot of ways. And so really navigating like, how do I loosen that up now so that it's in a balanced way and that can be used as a gift. And also that it doesn't take me into limitations.

Mm-hmm. You know? Oh, so when you asked about the anger. Yeah, I just had to think about it again, kind of what that process was. And actually what I realized, I remember I did have to get really mad, and I remember in that process thinking for any individual who's left a cult, if they haven't gone through some anger process, I don't know that you can fully heal because there's something in the anger that definitively places you at odds with what was, and having to see that clearly.

And then in that there's a whole other process that takes place, right? So I did the anger and I felt all the anger, and then I got to a place actually where I realized, oh, now I'm starting to feel like the anger's seeping into my world in a way that I don't want it to. Now's the time for me to start checking the anger.

What is this anger? Let me just put it where it is and be done with it. Right? I don't want that pulsing through my veins anymore. I'm done. So I still felt when that was supposed to be done for me, and then it really was. And again, not that little things don't come up at different times. Right. I might see something that's abusive in the content that I'm looking at, and it reminds me of something that happened in the group.

And I'll have a little flare come up of like, God damn it, you know? Like, yeah. And also in my group, there's still some people with the leader, so he's still actually functioning and that every once in a while just gets me. How big was the group? The group? So I was in it really at its height, and we were in 12 different cities.

And the communities anywhere from some of the baby communities had maybe. Seven or 12 people. Some had 25, the largest ones probably. Were still small at about 40, 50. And it's still going on now? It is, but it's highly, highly diminished. So people are, there's a steady stream of everybody slowly leaving. Is there a name of this group or would you prefer not to even say it?

Yeah, no, thank you for asking. No, I'm more than happy to. I think the version that they're using now is, well, Peter Bose is the leader, so whatever he's in, you don't wanna be under, they've called it a few different things. UX center, something light. I think now it goes by something light. So yeah. Peter Bose is the head honcho.

Okay. Yeah. So it's pretty amazing. I think I've noticed that I have to keep my anger going a little bit because yeah. That's what spurs me on. And yes, these are some of the things that if I get to be angry at Pedro, then I get to be angry at all of the peoples who are perpetrating these Yeah.

Frauds on people. And if I can get the message out to say, look, this is what they're doing to you and I'm bringing different things into season two that I'm actually kind of surprised that I am trying to tackle. But there are the things that make me angry that people do to other people, to keep them in line, to have them send money, to do all of the horrible things they're doing.

I need to, I feel like I need to stay angry with that so that I can pass the information along. Is that the wrong way to feel? Absolutely not. I think that that is one of the most productive ways that we can channel anger, is that we use it as the fuel to help others or to give, to educate. And I'm so happy that you're in that place, Anola because it's, again, it's so particular to different survivors, right?

Like you've bounced out and went full in, and so I suspect maybe you have a little fiery spirit other, yeah, it's been known to have been said. Yeah. So others really need to go into a cocoon afterward and do some major kind of healing, and then they're ready to come out. Some people, it's never right for them to be public, and maybe they do other things behind the scenes.

yeah, I think I went into a cocoon there for a while. I just felt so bad about myself and it took my family saying, Hey, you should start writing about this. You should do a podcast. You should do this, that, but I do think that it has allowed me to become more of myself again, to get it out there and not care what anybody says about it.

They can say whatever they want about me, but as long as I'm trying to help other people, I guess that's the best that I can do. And I feel like I need to do that because it's so pervasive out there now. Yeah. The big tech companies are scamming us. It's not just individuals anymore, it's corporations, and it just doesn't quit.

It's like you're either a target of a scammer or you're a scammer in this world these days. And how sad is that? Yeah. We almost have to operate like that. Well, and this is, I think the big question is, this is why it matters that we pay attention at different times to how we're feeling, right? And how we're feeling in ourselves and about ourselves.

It's like when the fire and the anger is there and it's moving us toward positivity, that's great. When it starts to feel like it's poisoning us, that's when we know it's time for a change. But that experience of giving and connecting with others, sometimes I feel like it also takes a life on of its own.

And I always think, you know, what if we had in schools? What if we actually, for real, talked about sex, sexuality, sexual roles? So we're actually educating these boys. They're not landing in the Me Too movement, terrified to even ask a girl out because they don't know what's okay and what's not right.

We're in a weird time right now around all that. Mm-hmm. So we teach consent so that children have that language that they can then have more positive relationships. Maybe there's even a communication class, so you're learning how to better communicate with friends and family. Mm-hmm. Right? And then you get launched into the world and you've at least got some of those skills that are gonna help you and support you in so many things.

Right. If we're talking to the kids early on about coercive control and what that looks like, that should, honestly, in my opinion, that needs to be happening. It could maybe even happen middle school, but certainly the freshman relationships in high school. Certainly at that age, because this is also the time where in very honest conversations that I've had with men, it's like men also are starting to realize the power that they have over women as sexuality is coming on board.

And I remember one man saying to me, I thought, this is such a gift, that he was open to sharing this with me. He said, you know, Jennifer, I think every man hits someplace in his life early on. Sometime in the teens or twenties where you realize you're stronger than women. You can dominate them so you could physically dominate them.

Mm-hmm. But also you could manipulate them to get sex and you have to make a decision what kind of man you wanna be. Are you gonna be the manipulator dude or are you gonna actually be the kind man that is loving and honoring women trying to find your partner who's going to prop you up and you're gonna prop up and have an awesome friendship and relationship.

And I thought, wow, that's, it's really interesting that even biologically, 'cause I don't relate to that as a girl or as a woman, I don't ever remember a time of kind of being like, oh, maybe for women it's sexuality where you realize you have this sexuality secret sauce that you can either work or not. But. I think the male one is different.

It's more dangerous because, yeah, I never even thought of it that way. Yeah, and that's scary. Yeah, but it makes sense too, right? It's like it's biology and it's psychology, and so if we're not talking about these things, then also we're putting these young people at a disservice. I was never taught anything about communication until I got into my group, and then it's really lovely to know.

Yeah. Yeah. I so appreciate you being here on this program today. We've covered a lot of topics and, but I think it's just, it's fascinating and it's just things that we all have to work at to get more acquainted with bad actors out there and how we can keep ourselves safe. And I think the biggest takeaway is your family.

If you can't tell your family about it, then there's definitely something wrong because they always have your best interest at heart and you might not wanna hear everything they have to say, but they're the ones that are gonna keep you safe. Right. I always think of that as, it's like with our trusted sources, we should be able to consider if they have a disagreement with us, and that may not save you, but it might be the early warning sign that does save you before you're in the hole, as you called it.

Your family's the early warning system. Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, it's great an it's so nice to connect with you. And thanks to all of you who joined us today. I hope this was as insightful for you as it was for me. I'm grateful Jennifer had the time, and I hope we all learn something new.

Join me next time when I discuss victim blaming and why your cruelty is the scammer's business model. Please join me.