The Scam that Broke My Family

April Helm — Journalist & Host of the podcast "Scammer Stories"

Some scams don't just steal money. They steal relationships, fracture families and leave wounds that no amount of recovery can fully heal.
April Helm is a journalist and the host of Scammer Stories — a podcast dedicated to exposing the devastating reality of fraud through the voices of those who have lived it. She is also a daughter, and  watched helplessly as her mother fell deeper and deeper, into the grip of a long term romance scam.
April tried to intervene. She recognized the red flags.  But her mother,  like other victims  couldn't see what those on the outside could see clearly. The scammer had done his job well. The emotional bond was too strong. And this started a divide within the family.
Then tragedy struck. April's mother passed away — still in the grip of the scam — leaving April not only with grief but with unanswered questions, unresolved heartbreak and a fierce determination that her mother's story would not sit in silence.
It is an important and essential episode,
because romance scams don't just happen to the person being scammed. They happen to every person who loves them.
Join me as April shares the story of her mother, the scam that fractured their family and why she turned her pain into a platform that is helping others recognize the warning signs before it's too late.

Transcript

 Hey, April. Thanks so much for being with me today. I really appreciate you coming on this podcast. Will you start by telling us a little bit about you, what you do in real life, what you do with the podcast, and why you started this podcast? Sure. I grew up in Kansas. I've been a journalist for nearly 30 years, so I have covered scams. I thought I was knowledgeable about scams, but it turns out I wasn't as knowledgeable as I thought, because my mother was battling ovarian cancer in 2017, and I went to visit her one day and she said, "I'm going to get online and start dating again." She was a widow. She'd been widowed for several years. And I told her, "That's fine." Sorry. Yes. That, yes. So she'd been widowed for several years and was going through treatment for ovarian cancer, so she was lonely And so I said, "That's fine. You can get online and date, but just be careful." And she was like, "Oh, I'll be careful." So that's famous last words. Yeah. So then- What happened to her? Well, it took... It was only about a month later, and she sent me a screenshot of a man and said, 'I've met someone. I'm dating someone. His name is Gerald." And I knew immediately it was a scam because the guy was about 30 years younger than her. And it's just, that's just not, that just doesn't happen to a woman like my mom. I mean, maybe if you're a celebrity, rich or something like that, but to normal people. And so I told her it was a scam, and she went silent. And I didn't hear about him much for a while. And now I know why. She was sending him money. And he was, she probably didn't want you to worry about it or think that she was wrong, so then she starts isolating herself. Exactly. She didn't want to hear that she was wrong. She didn't want to admit that she was wrong. He had sold her this fantasy. And he told her that he had a diamond mine in Turkey, and she believed him. And she thought she was... She told me, "I've been a good person. I deserve this." And she held up her hand like this and she goes, "I'm going to have diamonds on every finger." She was actually sitting right here where I'm talking to you today at, when we were having that conversation. And I just, I didn't want to make her feel stupid, but I was like, "I don't think there's diamond mines in Turkey." Yeah. And then when he said he ran into emeralds, I was like, 'Oh, Mom, emeralds and diamonds don't come from the same..." So, you know, you got to laugh about it now, so. Yeah, now. Yeah, now. It's kind of our medicine, isn't it? The people in this scam house. Oh, absolutely. Laugh or cry, one or the other. Yes. Or be angry. I mean, I, I, I'm still battling anger. Oh, yeah. I hear you. So how did you, how did, did she get out of it? She never got out of it. She ended up passing away. She... You know, scammers, one of their tactics is they keep their victims up all night long to keep them delirious, you know, so they're not thinking clearly. The less sleep they get, the better. And one night I was going to meet her the next day, and she was delirious, and she rolled out of bed and broke her neck. So she didn't die from the ovarian cancer. I think she, she died from breaking her neck, and I think if she wouldn't have been talking to that scammer all night, that I might have seen her that day. Not sure, I can't prove it, but I think she would've at least survived another day. Uh, and 'cause my aunt came into her bedroom that night and said, "You need to get off your phone and get some sleep." She was talking to the scammer and So that's how it ended with her. But i- if she was still alive today, she would still be talking to her scammer. I 100% believe that. How long was she talking to him? How long was she in this romance that you knew about? Okay, so she started in about 2017, 2018, and she died right before the pandemic, in February of 2020. Right at the start. Yeah. So this was a long, drawn-out thing that my, all my family members, we all debated on how we should handle it. You know, kindness and compassion, tough love. She had two sisters. One sister was mad at me because I wasn't supporting her new relationship. Mm. And one person, one of the aunts was mad at me. My aunt was mad at me because she didn't think I was being tough enough. And then my brother and I are, are trying to unite as one so this doesn't do damage to our relationship. And as hard as we tried, there were, were some issues along the way, but for the most part, we banded together as a team at least. You know, sometimes it can bring family members together, and sometimes it can tear them apart. Most of the time, tear them apart. So how has the family healed from this, or is it still kind of- Hmm. No, the one aunt, the one, the aunt who was mad at me for not supporting her, I don't speak to her anymore. It... She was just too ugly. Ugh. I can't get over it. I just, you know, I'm, I'm at that age where I'm like, "Eh, do I really need an aunt who's angry and mean and hateful? Nah." What if she were to apologize and, and come to you? I would accept her apology, but she doesn't... She's one of those women who doesn't do- Not coming yes, no. Yes, if she sat me down and apologized and said, "I know you were going..." What I would want to hear from her is, "I know you and your brother were going through a really difficult time with your mom. I didn't realize what was happening, and I made it more difficult for you. I should've been more supportive for you, and I'm here for you now." But that conversation will never happen. She's never... Actually, after my mom died, I blocked, and she sent my husband a message saying, "I felt like I was good to Sherry," her sister, my mother, "and I never got a thank you from April." Wha- And so I was like, "Oh my, this is not a relationship I want to pursue." She understand that your mom was being scammed? Does she- Now. Yeah, but she still, she is so narcissistic that she's not wrong. She's- Oh, dear. Mm-hmm. That's really sad. Yes. I mean, look what this scammer did to your family, you know? No fault of, of your own. I mean, everybody's got their stuff going on, but for them to just upset a whole family like that. Did your mom-- How much did your mom lose? Did she lose everything? She admitted to me that she lost 250,000, but after her death, my aunt went through her, all of her financial records. It was 350, and she'd lost her apartment, her car. Uh, she didn't have a place to live, and she was still going out to check cashing places and selling everything she could sell, uh, giving him her Social Security check. Uh, she was money mule-ing for him She would never stop. She'd never... She had become so addicted to this person's affection, no matter if it was real or not, she couldn't give it up. I mean, there are, I talk to women all the time that they, they lose their children for the scammer. They cut off communication with their brothers, sisters, their children, because talking to that scammer is the most important thing in their life. And that's so frightening that that can happen. It's not a good place to be. Well, and it's hard to admit you're, you're wrong, especially when everyone's telling you that this isn't real, and you're pushing back and pushing back and pushing back. To come out and say, "Wow, okay. You guys were right. I was wrong," that's hard. Oh, that's really hard because you have to understand that everything that you thought was real is not, and that is such a hard place to come to. You know, it's, it, if I hadn't have been approached by that fed guy, I don't... Well, it would've ended because I had no more money. But a lot of time, uh, and you know, the FBI agent talked to my mom. Still didn't, and told her, "You could go to jail." And she just laughed it off. She lost all of her money, but they can still use you. See, you stopped at that, but my mom didn't. She continued to launder money for them. Oh, no. She- That- Yes ... tried to get me to do that. Yes, and the fed guy stepped in before that, but I was, I was signing up to be a money mule, and they're sending those people to prison now. There's a woman who's about 40 miles from me, I'm in Oklahoma, and she's my age. Her mugshot is just, it breaks my heart. She was money muling, and the bank and the police and the feds tried to tell her to stop, and she still wouldn't, and so she's in prison. Oh. If they, if she had stopped when they told her to stop, would they have put her in prison? No That's a good question. My theory is they wouldn't have, because the FBI, they don't want to go after money mules. They realize that these are people who start... That are victims as well. They don't want to do this, but if they tell you to stop and you won't stop, they've gotta do their job. I mean, what, what you're doing is a crime. So I don't, I don't think they would've if she would've stopped at that point. I was just listening on a podcast not too long ago about, um, the job scams that are out there, and two of the job scams were, you know, with using crypto and, and transferring crypto for somebody, and also for, um, receiving packages, repackaging them, and sending out. Those are both things that scammers do, and I mean, I wonder how many people go into that not understanding what they're being asked to do, not understanding how illegal it is. Well, that job scam, I almost fell for it one year. That is convincing because when you're... Okay, at the time, I was married to a man who was a gambling addict, and I was making very little money. So I was desperate to make more money so we could pay our bills. So I found a job company, and he of course told me, "You need to be making at least double, and I guarantee you that I can get you double the money. All I need is $3,000 today and then $3,000 later." Okay. I wanted a job that paid better so badly, and I baked him... Okay. When I went to s- uh, speak to him the first time, I brought him a rum cake, and he was like, he was kinda taken aback. Oh. 'Cause he knew he was scamming me, and here I am, "Hey, here's a cake." So I took the cake. I went home with my lovely cake. Yeah. So- Oh ... that never happened because we were so broke at the time. There was no way I could've come up with $3,000. Yeah. So never happened, but I was close. Well, I was close too because when, when the scammer came to me with this new opportunity, which was the crypto, they said, "You know, all you gotta do is take money in from our new customers. You'll get a bank account. They will send money into this bank account, and then you transfer it into crypto and then send it into this crypto wallet, right? And you'll get 5% of whatever you bring in." And I was so desperate for money at that time- Mm-hmm ... that I thought, "Okay, this is a way for me to get some money back while I'm- Yes waiting for my scammer to come back and pay me back." It's so insidious. It's so scary. I, in fact- Yes ... I just was applying for jobs this week, and I applied for one job, and they got back to me within a couple of days, and I, I have never heard of this company before, so I Googled it, and they said, yeah, super shady. And so I thought, "Oh, that's why they got back to me so quickly." You know? That is fast. Yeah. So I, I'm scrubbing everything that I do these days. It's ugh. And they- Well, and the job market right now is so tough. I mean- And most of the time your resume, when you submit it online, it doesn't even reach a real person. It's all these algorithms going through everything. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll, you know, maybe three weeks later get a, "Sorry, it didn't work out." Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. So, but then, so how long have you been doing your podcast now? When did you start? I start- Okay, I started that when mom was still alive and still in the middle of her scam. Oh. C- because at the time, you know, I went, I Googled romance scam, and there wasn't any information. There was very little information out at the time. So I thought, "Well, I'm a journalist. I'll just, you know, do what I do every day and just start a podcast." And I interviewed my mom before she died about her scam. Now- Is that on your podcast? Yes. Here's how that came about. She wanted money to send to her scammer, so she called me and said, "I need money for a doctor's appointment." And I said, "Okay, well, I'll just call the doctor's office." "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't. No, you can't do that. It's gotta be in person." I knew what she was doing, so I said, "Okay, here's the deal. I'll send you the money, but I want an interview for the podcast." Be- 'Cause that way at least I get something out of it. And she was so desperate for money that she ac- she agreed. So I did interview her about that. It was... It's wild now to go back and listen to it now. You remember which episode it is? It's, like, potentially the first one. It was one of the one early ons. Yeah. Yeah, and it was really difficult in the beginning having a romance scam podcast because when people don't know who you are and they've been scammed, they're skeptical. They're like, "Who are you? What's a podcast?" Yeah. It's a struggle. Yeah, I mean, I s- people still don't know me, but I just decided that I've gotta put it out there and just put it in a way that maybe people can understand it who've gone through it or have had family that have gone through it. And it's not really just to, you know, for me. It's not that at all. It's just that I fell into this trap, and I don't want you to do the same thing. So listen to what I'm saying and understand if, if you're going down that same path, you know, hopefully they can stop it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you and I have a, because we were involved in a scam, you different story than mine, but that's how I approach it, as I say, "Look, my mother was scammed." But just I'm sure when you reach out to people you say, "I've been through something similar." Mm-hmm. "I'm trying to help others by starting a podcast." And so that would help open up that line of communication with you because they know that we're coming in as friends and not foes. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one thing I do not do on my podcast is, is bash victims, ever. You know? Yeah. No. What's the point, you know? I mean- Yeah, how does that help? It makes me mad when I see people do it. We're just trying to get them to come out versus continue to isolate. Yes. Have you noticed any... Are, are people more willing to come out and talk to you these days, or are they just as isolated as they were when you started? You know, more people are actually reach... I used to have to reach out to people. Now they're reaching out to me. But I don't know if I'm getting more people reach out to me just because they've listened to the podcast and they know I'm not going to berate them. Right. Or ... I mean, 'cause they will, I will interview people who are still isolated from their family, who haven't told their family. Yeah, yeah. I think they're just wanting to talk with someone. Especially if they're married. It doesn't matter if you're married? No. People think ... That is why ... And long marriages, 25- Right ... sometimes 50 years, bet there are a lot of loveless marriages, especially if you've been married that long and all of a sudden this exciting new relationship comes about and you're the happiest you've ever been and you, you're just, you've got that love drunk stage. Yeah, yeah. It's so much fun. And I mean, my mom, I've never seen her so happy. She was giddy. I mean, just it was bizarre. I w- it's, I've ... It would've been so nice if it would've been real and if it would've worked out because she would've been so happy. She was just so happy that to find another love. Mm-hmm. But ... And it does not really matter what age you are, you know what I mean? No. No, everybody wants to be loved. You want to be a teenager again. Oh, exactly. You know? Yes. A- and so it's ... But mine was weird because I didn't feel like I could tell anybody. It was kind of like being pregnant in your first trimester. You're, you're not sure if things are gonna work out or not, so you wanna wait until you make sure that, you know, it's actually gonna come before you tell anybody. So that's kind of how I felt with mine, and then unfortunately things kept happening where I kept having to delay any announcement. A, a few of my girlfriends knew. Some were ... They ranged from supportive to very skeptical. And, and that's okay, you know? Um ... Are you still friends with all of those same friends today or- Yes. Because I admitted- Yes, exactly ... you know? I mean, there was ... I, I remember putting something on my podcast or, or my Facebook, I can't remember, about our- Not really saying anything to my friends or, or my friends not really reaching out and saying anything back to me about it. One of my friends came in and said, "Well, you didn't want us to say anything." And I thought, "You know what? You're right. I, no, I didn't want any negativity. I wanted to live my fantasy." Yes. You wanted to be happy. That's what mom said. But all she wanted to talk about was Gerald. That is the ... Every time I would try and change the subject, it would come right back to Gerald. And I had to be careful because I didn't know how long my mom would be around with her fighting ovarian cancer. So every time we were ... And we, she lived in Alabama at the time. I would not let her come live with me because she refused to stop talking to the scammer. She could have lived here, but- Yeah ... uh, I had to be careful because I didn't know every time I saw her if it was gonna be the last time. So I would kind of go back and forth. Do I want to fight about Gerald, or do I just want to enjoy my mother 'cause this could be the last time I see her? And the last time I saw her, we went to a Mexican place. We loved getting Mexican food together. Okay. And loved it. And, um, I started pushing back on Gerald, and she said, "If this is the way you're gonna be, I just won't tell you anything anymore." So I backed off. You know, I, as a, um, adult child of a mother who's being scammed, sometimes you feel like, uh, like they're walking all over you because you've got to suck it up, bite your tongue just so you can learn what's going on in your parent's life or spend time with them. And a lot of people I've spoken with have decided, you know what? I've tried everything. I'm walking away from my mother. For my own mental health, I can't do it anymore. I speak to a lot of adult children who've made that decision Especially when their parents are married and the mother or father is involved in the scam. You know, the, the child, adult child feels especially betrayed. Yeah. How could my mother do this to my father after 50 years of a happy marriage? How could she do that to me? So those are usually the ones that are most likely to just walk away. Sad. Were you ever able to get into your mom's phone and take a look at the texts? I, my, I gave that ta- I gave that task to my aunt, her sister, because I knew some of the texts might be raunchy and I didn't want Oh, yeah. To see that. Your mother talks like that. But so I'm assuming that she was love bombed, all of the, you know- Oh ... everything that goes along with that, that- Oh, yes ... your- Everything she likes, he likes. Yes. Mirroring. '60s music. Oh, he loved '60s music. You know, what, whatever. The Peppermint Twist, come on. Did you ever find out where the guy was? Did you find out anything about him? I did speak to him on the phone one time. You did? Is that- The last time she visited here, the last time I saw her. Actually, I was sitting right here in my kitchen, right where I am right now, when I talked to him on the phone. Um, I think he was from Turkey He did not sound Nigerian or Asian. I think he was from Turkey. There are some scammers that... So when I talked to him on the phone, he sounded like a kid. I said, "Hey, Gerald. How are you doing? What are you..." "Good." I said, "What are you doing? What are you up to today?" "Watching TV." "Oh, okay." Is that your job? It's like he couldn't, he wasn't capable of having an adult conversation, an engaging adult conversation. It sounded like something you would have with a kid. "What are you doing?" "Watching TV." He just got his hand caught in the cookie jar and he- Yes ... was trying to back out of that. And Mom was watching me when I was on the phone with him. So a lot of times when people find out that I talked to him on the phone, they're like, "Oh, did you go off on him? Did you?" No, I didn't, because Mom was sitting there staring at me, so happy I was talking to her boyfriend, and I didn't know if it was going to be the last time I got to spend time with her. My goal was just to hear what he sounded like so I can try and tell where he's from and his age. And I confirmed what I thought and I said, "Okay, well." I mean, it, the whole conversation probably lasted 30 seconds. I didn't go off on him, number one, because I wanted to spend quality time with my mom, and number two, I knew that wasn't going to do anything. Yeah. And looking back, it would not... He wasn't going to stop. Well, it would've done something that would've damaged your relationship with your mom. Yes. Yeah. So. So, so then after she passed- She must have given him my number or something, 'cause I got a message from that number, and he said, "I've got a video of you having intercourse, and if you don't send me $300, I'm gonna release it." Yeah. Really? Fellas, my husband and I were cracking up. There, there's no such video. Wow. I mean, that takes some cojones to do something- Yes ... like that. What the hell? So I responded and said, "Oh, how do I look? Did I teach you anything?" You're welcome. Yeah, so I just, after we had a little fun with him, I just blocked him and move on, moved on. Well, w- was this, uh, like a WhatsApp number, or was it an area code from an international phone? No, they probably used the app that you can create a new number, 'cause he had... His number was, uh, Mom lived in Mississippi, and it was a Mississippi number, so he probably had that app that could change. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. That's, that just blows my mind that he would do something like that. Now, he didn't know my mom had passed. That's what, uh, that was gonna be my next question. Did he know? Yeah, he didn't know, so my aunt got my mom's phone and continued texting with him as my mother. But my mother and my aunt, they're not the same at all. Mom's really reserved, introvert. My aunt's very outgoing. She's an extrovert. They don't talk the same at all, and he caught on within a day that it wasn't my mom, 'cause she wanted to find out more information. You know, she was trying to dig for more information, but, but we still get together. Every time I get together with Mom's side of the family, we just get together and say, "Did that really happen?" It's just so bizarre. Yeah. We were the most normal Midwestern family, just boring. Nothing ever exciting or anything happened, and then that happened. Spectacular. Yeah. We were just regular people. Mom was a hardworking, smart lady. How advanced was her- Was the- ... stage cancer? It was stage four. It was? Yeah. So I went to, um, after she was, after she passed, I went to the doctor and they cut my tubes and gave me an ablation to help stop the possibility of me getting ovarian cancer in the future. So I had the minor surgery to do that, 'cause it ru- it's definitely runs in the family if, you know, you have ovarian cancer. Got to it head on. Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm glad you even thought of that. Yeah, I'm glad my doctor did. I, I wouldn't have thought of it. Yeah. So was there ever any plan for your mom to meet up with this guy? I mean... Yes, he kept saying he was gonna come. I mean, there, there were a time, like the last Christmas, I wanted her to come to Oklahoma to spend with me, but she couldn't because Gerald was coming to where she is. Mm-hmm. So of course, she goes to the airport, he doesn't show, and she's not with her children, my brother and I, for Christmas. It's, it's sickening. So she just hung out at home. Waiting for him to come. That must have been so disappointing and so infuriating at the same time. Oh, yes. That's a good way to describe it. Sad, mad, infuriated. And I couldn't just tell her, "Mom, like, come spend Christmas with us." I mean, and now she's missing out on so many fun things. Yeah. Weddings and, you know, nieces and nephews having babies, and she would've been ... loved to have been in the middle of all that, all that stuff that she's missing out of. You know me, um, testifying on Capitol Hill, she would've l- she loved to be the center of attention. Mm. And she would've loved that. Now tell us about that. What did you, what were you testifying for, and when was this? Uh, this was October of last year. I did a story with a wonderful reporter for the Today Show, and Senator Grassley's aides saw it. Senator Chuck Grassley. And he's the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee. So they reached out to me and asked me if I would testify in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee about romance scams. Oh, wow. It was terrifying. Did they listen to you? Did they ... Were they taking it seriously or ... I, I mean, I always wonder about that. It's like- Yes ... if we, if we get somebody to testify, then that'll show everybody that we're, you know, doing something about it. Yeah. Do they follow up? Nothing has been done. And I So it was so interesting that day because you learn that the senators on that committee, they get up, they're walking around, some of them just leave, some of them come back. They're talking to each other. They're, they're on their phones. So no, I, I didn't feel like they were taking it very seriously. It was just like a little, another little dog and pony show to them. Yes. Because it, it seems to me like several people have gone to Capitol Hill and testified. Yeah. And- I s- ... what's come of it? That's- Yes ... that's what. I spoke to a woman, an advocate the other day, and she just testified a few weeks ago or a month or two ago. And I said, "How many times have you testified?" She said five. And I said, "How many times have you seen something done?" She said, "None. Zero." Why do they even bother then? Yes, let's hear. What's the point? If, I mean, does it give them something to do during the day rather than just to fight with each other? I guess shows their constituents that they're, they care about romance scam victims. Um... Now, I did hear that there was an executive order that they were gonna start looking at- Yes ... scams. You've heard the same thing? Yes, but that's, that's not because of anyone's testimony. Yeah. That's be- that's, yeah, the current administration. You know... Skeptical pardon that I am, but it's like we can't listen to what they say, we have to watch what they do. Yes, we need to s- see that, what the, we want action. It, it would be nice if we could get everyone in the States who's been scammed and just, you know, go to Capitol Hill together. I think we should do a march. I propose, 'cause you know, I'm on the board of Advocating Against Romance Scammers, and I was talking to them and I said, "We need to march," and they kinda looked at me like, "Mm." And it's like, like, I think we should. Why not? Yeah. Yeah. March for Change. Are there enough people who would come out, though? I mean, there's so much shame involved in all of this, and- There's shame, and no one has any money. Well, yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, it's not like everyone's got the money to fly to Washington, DC and get a hotel room. Y- all these people are trying to rebuild their financial wealth. I mean- Yeah ... that's half the battle, too, the shame and the lack of finances. But I mean, even if you could get 40 people to show up the first year and then do it the second year, get more people, and the local television stations would cover it. Would they? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you just brought me back to reality here because that's like, okay, I- I, I'm living on, uh, Social Security and, um, and unemployment at the moment. My house payments are three times what they were before. I was almost finished paying off my house. Gosh. You know, it's like, you know, and I'm 69. Yeah. How the hell am I supposed to rebuild at this late time? Man. So, you know, I get to live the rest of my life as a pauper. Well, and I sh- I tried to tell my mom that. Yeah. I said... You know, when mom was giving him money, she said, "It's my money." And that's what my aunt said too, the ba- I'll call her the bad aunt. The bad aunt was like, "It's her money. She can do with it what she wants." And I said, "Oh, yeah? Well, when it's gone, who's gonna have to pay for her? Me and my brother." And my mom didn't have any problem with that. But if sh- if we were gonna pay for her, her life is going to be way scaled back. See, she was thinking, oh, we, she would have this lu- luxurious lifestyle that my brother and I were gonna fund. Hmm. There, there was a, um, a single wide trailer at a really nice trailer park not too far from me, and I told her, I went, I went and looked at them. Now it's a nice safe mobile home park, but that's where she was going to be. If I was... It sounds awful, but- Yeah. No. You know, I may be looking at the same thing. I never know. It's, it's like, I don't know how long I can keep up, you know, keep all the balls up in the air. A- and so yeah, maybe your mom lucked out. Maybe I should- Yeah ... fall on that and break. Sorry. Well, uh, I know it sounds... Well, it sounds harsh, but It, it maybe wasn't a bad thing because I just think of all the heartache that was to come after that. The heartache- It would've been a nightmare ... the mental burden and yeah. It's- Fighting- ... their lives because of this. It's- Oh, absolutely. It's not, uh... A- and even, even the young kids with this extortion now, I mean, it is so humiliating and degrading- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, kids are, are committing suicide because they don't have the words how to, what to do. Well, yeah, I wouldn't wanna tell my parents. I would never admit to my parents that I had sent something like that to someone. Yeah. Yeah, that's the last thing you wanna do. Mm. Yeah. "Hey, Dad." Oh, man. "Guess what I did?" Yes. How embarrassing. But I would hope that, a- and I don't know that this is happening because that's not really where, where I'm focusing it, but maybe I, I need to more of that, i- is are they talking to them in schools? Are they warning them that this is coming, uh, and this is how it's being dealt with? Do you have any insight on that? I have heard that, that some schools are talking about it with the kids, but I don't know. There needs to be a nationwide campaign. Yeah. Education campaign. Yeah. That's another reason to go to Capitol Hill, right? Yeah. Yes, because in Australia they started one, and it actually cut back by 50% the number of scams they received, which is big. That's huge. Because here in America it's just up, up, up, up, up, up, up. Yep. I have heard that, uh, Europe and Australia are ahead of us and- Yeah ... even Canada, like we're letting Canada beat us. Come on. Canada's beating us in so many different ways. But yeah, that's another story for another time. Oh my gosh. So tell me about... Are the patterns the same? What are the patterns that, that you see when you talk to people? Are they the same kind of across the board? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They reach out, love bomb, mirror. If you try... If the victim tries to push back, they get angry, the threats start. The guilt And people are always asking me what the red flags are. Look, never mind the red flags, okay? There's only one thing you need to know. Never send money to someone you've never met. That's it. I mean, you... But that's so easy to say, you know. In fact, I had a guy on LinkedIn that is supposedly a fraud fighter, and he says, "It's that simple. Just don't send money to people." But before that, there are multiple steps that happen before they ever ask for the money, and that's where the problem is, you know? Yeah. But didn't you know that, didn't you, didn't something kind of tell you this is off? I had so many things to tell me that something was off. That's my point is the red flags are there, and, but you s- the, like my mom, she saw the red flags and just ignored them. And why was that? Do you- Yeah, that's, that's the question. I mean, I have talked to therapists. Some people think it's dementia. Some p- I, I think she did have a touch of narcissism. Maybe, I mean, age, but then younger people are being scammed, too, so it's not age. We need to study. We, there need to s- to be studies done on how this actually works on people, besides just finding the red flags and things, like scientific research. You wanna know my unscientific research? Yes. It's the love bombs. I mean, because they are filling your head with dopamine and oxytocin and all of these hormones that make you feel so good. It's the same thing that happens to gambling addicts. It's the same thing that happens to, you know, people who abuse drugs and, and alcohol. It gives you something that you're craving. And if they're able to keep that going throughout the scam, then, I mean, it's just like you'll do anything to keep that going. It, it, you know, there's another thing, they, they pull away during the scam, right? And then they come back and that just makes you want them more. Amen. And so- Just like in a real relationship. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's everything that a real relationship goes through- Yes ... except for it's not real. Yes. And so, you know, the, the thing that I want to advocate for is I know that you might want something different in your life, but this is not the different that you want. If anybody reaches out to you, I mean, if we think about it with some logic, who reaches out to somebody online that they have no idea who they are, they might live in a different state, a different country, and, you know, start up a conversation with them? That person's either a scammer, number one, or they're desperate, number two, and neither one of those people do you want to have anything to do with. Yeah, desperate isn't sexy. Would you go and scour the internet for some random dude that, you know, you want to strike up a conversation with? No. I mean, a real conversation with? Why would somebody do that? You know what I would love to do is do like a, um, a fast dating day for romance scam victims. Get, just get everybody together like, "Uh, you might have a lot in common with this person. Hey, why don't you guys go on a real date?" I mean, it would, that would be so much fun. Well, except who's on the other end of the- Look, but you could do like a speed dating scenario where you get all the victims in one room and they could sit down and, and speed date. But the problem is everyone's kind of, you know, healing and doesn't have much money to give to me. Yeah, don't, don't offer that because then they'll put that on television. That would be a good show though. Oh my gosh. You know that. Oh. But, but I do think there needs to be something in the media Where it brings out what's going on. Because we can put everything in print on the internet and nobody's gonna read it, right? I mean- Right. I- Nobody reads anymore. It's gotta be- No ... in front of their face. It's gotta be like The Tinder Swindler or, you know, Love Con Revenge that she did afterwards. Mm-hmm. Mm. So there needs to be, I don't know, some huge documentary. I don't know, maybe I'll have to write a screenplay. Yeah. Okay, so let me tell you what happened with Love Con Revenge, because that was my goal. I reached out to every production company in the world- Uh-huh ... and said, "You need to do a documentary on romance scams. It hasn't been done yet." Right. So this production company out of England reached out and said, "Well, we want to do a documentary, but we want men only." And I s- I said, "I think you're, you're kind of missing a, a good opportunity here that we need to talk about." So we had a Zoom meeting, and I told them about these group of women that found each other through my podcast in California. There were 20 of them. I did a podcast with one, and then every few weeks I'd hear from another woman that said, "I think I was scammed by the same guy." So I would get them all in touch with each other. And I told this production company that they needed to do a documentary on these women because he had just gotten busted and he was going to court for the first time, so there was about to be a resolution and it would be a good show. And they're like, "Ah, I don't know. We're not interested." And I said, "Well, here. Here's the contact information for the women, and you just talk to them and see if there's something there." And that's what started Love Con Revenge. Oh, really? The women as episode five, those were the women from my podcast. Yeah. I thought there was only four of them. Uh, have they... I'm gonna have to go back and look now. Was there four of them? I have to watch that. They were the second to last- Okay ... episode. Go back and watch. Yeah. They were the Chris Lloyd, the one where, um, they pulled up, he, he pulled up in a fancy car and got out, and they were there to, you know, confront him. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna have to go back and watch that. Yeah. And, and they ac- I think there was another one, um, Hey Beautiful. Did you ever see that on Hulu? Yes. I kind of really identified with that German woman because she, she went through a very similar situation as I did. And so, but I... So there are things that are coming out, but I, I think there needs to be one On what's going on over in Cambodia. And yes, we'll have to ask Erin West. Yeah. She'd be a good one. She's up on all that stuff. AV. Yeah. Yeah, sh- that... She's the expert on what's happening there, for sure. So do you have... So you think the biggest... W- what, what is your biggest takeaway then to help keep people safe from these scams? Yeah. The one thing that they can do to stop themselves Well, I think the best thing we could do is talk about it when you're sitting around the table with your family. Yeah. Ahead, before the scam even starts. Like I posted on Facebook on Easter, I know it may not seem like a fun way to honor the reason for Easter, but your family's all gonna be gathered around the table. Well, you could bring up romance scam, and that may stop them from entering into a romance scam next time. I know, like, my best friend, she is very, very skeptical now because I've talked to her about these things so much. She's single. Um, and I don't know if she would've been a- as skeptical if I wouldn't have gotten to her first. Yeah. But you've gotta get to people before they're contacted. I see. I think that's probably the biggest thing. Yeah. And then once they are contacted, they can remain skeptical or, you know, do some due diligence first. Yeah. I, I changed my cellphone number recently, and I sent a text to my best friend. I said, "Hey, I've got a new phone number." And she responded, "Prove to me that this is April." I said, "Good girl." Good girl. It was. I was like, yep. Yeah. I, I am so skeptical now of everything that comes across. In fact, when you thought you were texting me the other day, and it came- Yes ... like an email, and I didn't recognize- Well, that was weird ... yeah, where that was coming from, and I'm just going, "I don't like this." Yeah. That's why I texted you back, and I'm just, "Hmm." So I'm still paranoid, I can tell. Yes. That's good. Is there any- Very nice ... I- is there any reason for us to have any hope anymore? Is, is there any way for any of this to get better? I think the government's starting to get interested in this now because they're seeing the latest numbers from, you know, the FBI. Once they're seeing the dollar signs that are leaving the country- Mm ... that's when they'll take action, and it's getting to ridiculous amounts. So I am hopeful that something will happen soon just because of greed. They want that money. They wanna keep the money here, and they know that it's funding terrorism- Yeah and drugs. Yeah. So I, I'm, I think we're right on the precipice of something happening here. Oh, man. I hope you're right. I hope you're right. I, I hope that- Maybe going to Capitol Hill hasn't been meaningless. You-- But again, so you probably have to hear it time after time after time maybe before you realize- Well, and- there is an issue, there's a problem. Well, and when... Go ahead. When we went to Capitol Hill last time with advocating against romance scammers, and we were talking to all the aides who write the legislation for the senators, what they said was, "Look, right now, if it's not about immigration, it ain't happening." Yeah. Or older. So we need more outrage from the romance scam world. Yeah. We need people to contact their constituents. We need them to be loud. We need them to start podcasts like you and I have done. Uh, the squeaky ge- wheel gets the grease. We need to be the squeaky wheel. Right now, immigration is the s- squeaky wheel, and we need to make us more important by being louder. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that, and that's why I continue to do this. It's like if I don't, then that means I just get to retreat into the corner and lick my wounds the rest of the days. Yes. You know? And this, there is one positive thing that's come out of this for you and for me, and that is kind of giving us a new purpose of spreading the word, sharing the knowledge. I mean, it changed the whole path of my future. Me too. Absolutely. In fact, I was testifying at the Utah State Capitol this year. I know AARP- Uh-huh ... has been done, uh, doing a lot of outreach about those crypto ATM machines, which I used, and as I started learning more about them, they just infuriated me, and people keep feeding money, feeding money, feeding money. And these guys that put these machines out there, they're basically multimillionaires for doing nothing. And so when Utah started to try and, and get some more restrictions on that, I went and testified on that. But the, the restrictions to me aren't enough, you know? Uh-huh. It's like $2,500 per day for 72 hours, and then after that- Yes it's $5,000 a day, and I'm just going, yeah, but the, s- this is still going to scammers and the, the guys that have the machines are still earning 30 to 35% off of every dollar that you put in there, right? Yes. You know? And in, in my state, in Oklahoma, they passed a bill that would also make it a crime if the store owner or clerk sees what's happening and doesn't approach the victim and tell them to stop. But that's kind of- Mm. Mm ... how do you enforce that? How do you prove that they know what's happening, and is it their job, a convenience store clerk, to stop a romance scam victim to giving money away? I just... That, that sounds wrong to me. I mean, maybe what they should do, not telling anybody to, to be a vandal here, you know, to push some lipstick up into the, the, the feeder, the money feeder, or you could just go pull it out of the wall so- Yeah, just go unplug it. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lady here, an elderly woman, she was 82 And she was at the ATM machine at the mall with a bucket of money and coins. And she was- Put coins in those things? Well, well she had a bucket, so I assumed there were coins, coins in there, but maybe it was just- Bills ... dollar bills. I'm not sure. A young man saw her doing that, went and attacked her and took her money. She was hurt badly. Yeah. And it took a while to find him, to track him down. He eventually got arrested, but I mean, you see a romance scam victim at a cryptocurrency machine and you think, "Well, I'll just take that money. I'm sure there's a lot there." Yeah. There was a, there was a man, um, in my town at the same machine that I was using because I went and talked to the clerk after, you know, when I started learning about him. And she said that he had put $20,000 in that machine, that he was there for two hours because you're feeding $100 bills in one at a time, right? And it, and it takes some time. And when he got done, she could tell that he was, there was something wrong. So she called the police, and he went out and sat in his car for a while, and she didn't know what happened in the meantime, but the next morning somebody came in and told her that that man had gone home and committed suicide. Hey. And all of those, all those guys care about that own those machines is how much they earned of that $20,000, which was likely 5 to $6,000. They don't care. They don't care if, you know... I mean, it just makes me sick, and that's why I am so rabidly against these machines. I mean, I reached out to every city council in Utah that I could find to, to tell them about the machine. I did have one guy from the city council, one of the city councils come back to me, and he's got a banking background. And he said, "I've never heard of these things until you brought it to my attention." Okay. And I thought, "Are you kidding me?" But I mean, where? Well, I see him, I see him with my own eyes when I go into the store. Or does he not watch the news? That's been interesting. Huh. Uh, you know, I live in Utah. We kind of live in a little bubble here. Yeah. And everybody's nice to everybody and... But reality doesn't always strike, you know, until it does. And so a lot of people just don't find out the information. They don't think that-- They don't understand that the world is as evil as it can be. You know, they, they choose to look on the bright side of life. Yeah, you live in a beautiful state and- Yeah. We all want to do that, but you do have to keep yourself safe as well. Y- So for-- I, I sent the guy everything that I could, you know, about the, the scams, and so I do hope that they will take action. One of the, one of the cities already took action, uh, well, which is what kind of spurred me on to try and get the rest of the cities around here to take action. They have banned, uh, cryptocurrencies within their city limits. But so I just thought, "Well, why can't everybody else do the same thing then?" Uh, because I just don't think that law that they passed through the state is, is restrictive enough. Yeah. The heart was in the right place, but- Will it work? I don't know. But, you know, at... On the other side of it, the crypto lobbyists were there as well. Mm. And apparently they can give money to- Yeah, well ... reelection machine, right? Well, when I spoke in front of Congress, um, one of the senators said that he spoke to the cryptocurrency companies who admitted that 90% of the transactions are scams. They admitted that? 90%. And we're allowing this why? Money. It's gotta be money. Well, yeah, obviously it's money, but I mean, wow. 90%. It's huge. Well, that's, you know, what was it in Iowa or Nebraska, one of those. They did their own, um, the AG there did their own investigation and they found about the same thing, 98% were scams. Mm-hmm. Huge. Um, they reached out to I think 50 victims who were using the machines like- Constantly maybe. And of the 35 respondents that they got, it was 100% scams. So why we're allowing this to happen- Yeah ... is just beyond me. Well, let's also talk about allowing social media and dating apps not to do more. Well, yeah. Zuckerberg's favorite person in the whole world. Right. Now, Match.com has started to take action. They... Match also does Tinder, and Advocating Against Romance Scammers has been working with Match. They're the only dating site that, well, is working with us, and they have taken some steps, and again, it's just not enough. I mean- Yeah ... they will alert you if you've been contacted by a profile that might be a scammer. But you know, all that scammer has to do is, "I've been wrongly accused. That's not me at all. Let's go talk on WhatsApp." Yeah, exactly. LinkedIn, that's where my scammer came from. I don't know if they cleaned up their act or not, but I mean, LinkedIn is also where I got that false job advertisement as well. Mm. Kind of assuming not. But the thing is, they're, they've got to do something soon because it's hurting their business model. Like, for example, I'll ask people who are single, "So are you on the dating apps?" And the first thing they'll say is, "Oh, no, those are all scammers." So they've got to do something or they're gonna stop... No one's going on there anymore because they know it's, it's just scammers and AI. I wonder if any of them would be willing to talk about it. Wouldn't that be interesting to say, "You know, we used to have this much business. Now we've-" Oh, boy ... "much less business, and it's because of the scammers." Now that, that conference that we're taking part in, in, um, Kansas City in October, where we'll... Match has agreed to pay if we've got several victims coming out. Oh, really? They're paying flight and hotel. Wow. Yeah. That's nice. So that's a step in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. We do need businesses to step up, you know, because... A- And big tech needs to be held accountable as well. They do. You know, thank heavens that there's a little crack in the dam there with Meta, but so much more needs to be done. To me, the biggest thing is that we, as human beings, need to protect ourselves and to protect our emotions, and not let something that we really wouldn't like to happen, happen because some guy out of the blue came to us one day. That's just not the way for this to go, I don't think. You know? Yeah. It's just nothing you can trust anymore, so. Mm-hmm. Well- Now, the BBB did reach out, and I put them in touch with some victims. They're having an event in October. No, I'm sorry, that event's May 2nd, on National Romance Scam, on National Scam Survivor Day. And so they're having a bunch of scam victims and experts out there, and they are paying for the victims for their flight and hotel as well. They know that they've got to do that or they, they won't have speakers. The victims can't- What? Where's that one at? That one's in DC. So that'll be fun for all the victims to go out there and get a little trip. But I mean, it'll be an emotional trip and a tough trip, but at least I know DC's beautiful, so. Yeah. Yeah. So they need to pay for a whole group of people to come out there, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. So yeah, and maybe AARP can- Yes ... you know, kick in some money too, because they're fighting it, so- Mm-hmm ... they should let the people speak. And isn't that their, where their headquarters is, is, is DC I think? Yeah. And AARP is one of the... They're doing some of the best advocacy out of any group. Yeah. They're really work- They are working hard to help. They have been, yeah, jerking me here and there, and this, and say that. Yeah. I'm happy to do it. Not because I want the notoriety, because nobody wants this kind of notoriety, you know? But I'm willing because it needs to be done. Yeah. And if I don't do it, who will, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I put myself out there and look like a fool to a lot of people, but I don't care. I just tell myself, and I believe it, that the people who are willing to shame me are the ones have no clue about what's coming for them. Well, now, and the people who shame the victims all online, I, I try not and engage, but sometimes I, I just can't help it, but I'm like- Yeah. Yeah ... "You feel better now? That low self-esteem of yours get a little-" Little boost. "... get me up there?" I mean, what's the point of, of- Yeah. You know, I did that too on one of my, uh, my YouTube videos. Some guy reached out, and this is, you know- What they say a lot, "You deserve to be scammed. You were greedy. And if that person was, uh, was working at McDonald's, you wouldn't, you know, have paid any attention to them." And I said, "Oh, that's really great advice. So where were you 2 years ago when I could have used that, those words? Were you working at-" Yes ... McDonald's?" You know, I'm... And, and then after that, it was so weird. He did like a 180. Oh, it... They're just, they're bullies. Uh, once you confront your bully- "I feel so bad for you." And, uh, "I'm going to help women for the last couple of years. And if you need, you know, if you need any advice, you can reach out to me." And I just thought, "Are you kidding me?" So I'm wondering how many people out there who are shaming are doing that as a job these days, you know, to keep people silent because the more you keep them silent, the more- Maybe ... lattitude the scammers have. Yeah, that- I'm kind of almost wondering if that might be another job that is out there that the scammers are promoting for, I don't know. Yeah. But- Oh, it could be a scammer. And yes, absolutely. That's what I was thinking, that he was a scammer. Maybe that's how we should respond next time. Are you a scammer? Well, you're either a scammer or you're totally ignorant about how this works. Yes. Yeah. You know, that's how we should respond. Either you're ignorant or a scammer. Either way, I don't like you. Goodbye. Yeah. Pretty much. You're blocked. Yes. Oh, gosh. Well, anything else we haven't covered that you would like to say to the people out there that are gonna listen to this? I guess the only thing that we can say to people who have been in this are, the only thing that could possibly make anyone feel better at all is you are not alone. There are others like you, and we're here to listen, to advise. Just to bless if you need a laugh. Yes. No judging. Because it, it happens to the best of us. I mean, some of the smartest people in the room, bankers, lawyers, you know, people who we think should know better, they get caught up in it too. And it's not because it has anything to do with intelligence. It has to do with being human and wanting to maybe fill a void that's in your life. Mm-hmm. So- Absolutely ... something we need to be careful of. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here.