The Face That Launched A Thousand Scams

For more than a decade, one military veteran has been living a nightmare he never signed up for.

His photographs have been stolen and used by romance scammers around the world. Day after day. Week after week. Year after year.

Thousands of women have been led to believe they were in a relationship with him.

Many reached out believing they had found love. Others were heartbroken to learn the man they trusted never existed.

The constant stream of messages, confusion, and accusations took a devastating toll on his personal life. His 26-year marriage ultimately fell apart under the weight of a problem he could not control.

He fought back. He reported the fake accounts. He pleaded with social media companies to remove his stolen images. Yet the scams continued.

Today, Bryan Denny is the co-founder of AARS (Advocating Against Romance Scammers), where he works alongside Kathy Waters to expose fraud and educate the public.

When we talk about romance scams, we usually focus on the people who lose money. But Bryan represents another kind of victim—someone whose identity was stolen, whose privacy was stripped away, and whose life was forever altered by criminals he has never met.

He didn't lose his savings.

He lost something far more difficult to reclaim:

His anonymity.

Transcript

 Welcome back to the Romance Scam Rebellion. Today, we're going to be talking to Bryan Denny. He's a retired colonel. Once he got out of the military, he found that his images were being used to scam victims. Now, he's directly involved in the fight to expose scammers by educating potential victims and helping to change legislation to remove organized crime off the internet. He's been interviewed on multiple podcasts, in news media, and in many newspaper articles. He's a co-founder of AARS, Advocating Against Romance Scams, a nonprofit started in 2020 to support victims of online romance scams. Here's our conversation We have not met before, but I have read a bit about you. I've, uh, watched some podcasts that you've been on and realized that you're quite famous out on the internet. Yeah, famous, infamous, uh- Infamous ... depending on how you look at it. Uh, but yeah, my, my image has been around, I'll say that. So before we get into that, um, tell us a little bit about you because my listeners probably are not sure of who you are yet. Sure, yeah. So I'm, uh, a, I guess for the, you know, the purposes of this discussion, I'm a retired US Army colonel. I spent 26 years in the Army. I grew up in North Carolina, and then, you know, traveled around the world with the service. And I'm a dad. I'm, I am very, very happily married and working. Uh, I do some consulting work now, uh, out of the state of Virginia. Still very much focused on the, on the defense industry and what things that keep our country safe, uh, and our partners overseas, particularly in Europe where I spent a tremendous amount of, of my service time, um, in Germany and then in the Middle East as well. So I guess that is a thumbnail sketch of me. All right. And, um, and now you're a consultant for the military? Uh, I consult basically for industry, uh, helping, uh, our industry partners understand what, uh, goes on and, uh, what the military is looking at in terms of procuring capabilities. Uh, and, and, you know, as the government looks to spend money, making sure they know what's out there and what's available. Um, also, I run a, a small business as well, uh, with the firearms industry, so I, I do a little bit of, uh, little bit of everything. Okay, great. So when did you find out that your pictures were out there on the internet? Sure. Yeah, it was, uh, in, uh, 2016, uh, just at the end of July. Uh, someone reached out to me and, uh, on LinkedIn. I was updating my LinkedIn profile 'cause I was retiring. I was looking for a job, um, and I really didn't have much of a social media presence. And, uh, someone reached out and I thought it was pertaining to a job. I was still pretty naive about social media, and, uh, asked for my phone number to contact me. I said, "Sure." Uh, they called, and it was, uh, a lady in Canada. And she said, "Hey, I just wanna make sure you're the Bryan Denny I've been speaking with." And I'm like, "Nope, I- no, has- it wasn't me." And like, "Well, I'm gonna send you a couple things," and she sent me pictures, uh, that were of me, uh, of my son and, uh, at that time my wife, and, uh, said, "Well, you've been- texting me and, uh, your wife apparently has passed away, you're divorced, or you're a widower now. And, uh, you're in, in Syria, and you and I are s- fixing to spend some time together." I'm like, "I have no idea what you're talking about." She said, "Well, uh, I'm gonna send you something else." And she sent me a couple of plane tickets with my name on them that said I was flying from the Middle East, uh, to visit her in Canada. And I'm like, "This is not me. I don't know what this is about." And, uh, she said, "Well, go on Facebook and type your name into the search bar and see what you see." And I did that, and then there were, you know, double digits of Bryan Denny, exact same spelling, same picture in almost every one of them, just replicate, you know, replica, uh, profiles, all with my name, my picture. Um, and she's like, "Yeah, I've been talking to this one guy and that's pretending to be you, and I just paid for your tickets to come here." And I was like, "Ah, okay." So that, that's, uh, chillingly enough how it started, how I found out my images were being, being used. Until then, I had no idea, I had no idea what, uh, a romance scam was or like That's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah. Yeah. Had you ever- Yeah ... heard of a romance scam before that? No. Had no idea what a romance scam was. I, you know, a lot of things go through your mind, like what else have I lost? What is my, you know, my bank account secure? You know, all these kind of things. And, uh, yeah, and then it was just, you know, the only thing I had lost was about 12 images that, uh, some of which were government images that were used, uh, that the Army took while I was deployed or, uh, or, you know, uh, in Germany, uh, resettling, uh, the unit I was in there. Uh, and then some of them were personal photos of my family that I had just taken about 30 days prior. Um, and some, and some a couple, uh, you know, a couple weeks before that. But yeah, I'd, I had, I had no idea what a romance scam was or how, you know, how much I would learn about romance scams in the coming years. Much more than you wanted to. Uh, I was so naive. I thought, "Well, I'm just gonna get in touch with Facebook and do the reporting." I learned that there's a reporting process, and I'm like, "I'm gonna engage that, and they're gonna take these off, and this will be done in no time." And, um, that wasn't the case at all. Uh, yeah. And did you get any response from them? So you al- back in the day, you always, you know, when you reported a profile, you got two responses. One was, "Hey, thanks for reporting, uh, this. We will investigate it and get back to you." And then you got a follow-up note saying what action was taken. And in almost every case, it was, "No action was taken. We found the profile does not violate community standards," uh, and the like. So, you know, so almost at no time was there any real satisfaction that we were, you know, winning, and this is looking back, you know, to 20, you know, 2016, you know, that we were actually making a dent. There were always more fake profiles that would remain up than there would ever be taken down. And just, you know, it's, it's, so it's really frustrating to know you're gonna report 100 profiles and, at best, I mean, at absolute best, 33% would be taken down, and that was when we had a, a pretty good relationship with Facebook and ultimately a number we could call and talk to a lady who would take action and, and remove those profiles. But I, I'm getting way ahead there. But yeah, just it was never very satisfying, the reporting process. It just doesn't work. And- And the whole process of eliminating, uh, you know, scammers is based on audience participation. So if you don't, if no one reports it, then it stays up there. But in reality, even if they know who you, who you are, they certainly know, knew me at, at, at one time, you know, no matter what I would report, still it made very little difference. And how many times have, uh, do, have you reached out to them on every one of those photos? Or at some point do you just throw your hands up and say- Yeah ... "There's really nothing I can do"? Well, we, yes. All the above. Uh, so I, you know, it, it's, uh, it, I, I labored under the I'm gonna report this and take care of this myself mentality till about November, and then, uh, Cathy Waters reached out to me. Cathy is my partner at, uh, Advocating Against Romance Scammers. Um, and she reached out and said, "Hey, I, I, I think my mom's friend was scammed, um, and I wanna confirm that that was your images." And we talked for a bit, and, uh, and we did in fact come to the conclusion that, yep, it was my image, uh, that was used. And, you know, Cathy jumped in and, and, you know, we started a letter-writing campaign and, you know, founded a not-for-profit. But initially, in discussions, uh, with Facebook, and I, and I, I do kinda target them a little bit, and because that's the only social media platform I was on at the time. Mm. And certainly they are the largest social media platform, so I thought if we could help them fix themselves or see where they stacked up in the community, they would wanna take action and want to create a safe space for people to come and talk to, and, and, and cooperate. And, uh, I thought they would be happy to, for, you know, for the help. Um, again, that, that was way off the mark. Um, uh- Yeah. We thought they had integrity back in the day. Yeah. I, I, I kinda counted on that. And at one point they said, "Hey, give us the 12," and within about, uh, 60 days, it was 23 photos, I think, that, "Hey, these are photos of mine that have been used to start fake account- accounts. I have made them all private. I've gone back in, gone through all the, you know, checked all the traps to make sure my stuff is private. But if you could, you know, prevent new accounts from being started with these images." And like, "Yep, that, give us those. We can do that. Um, and, uh, you know, that, that's a way to reduce this." And so we provided them the 23 images, and, uh, you know, it's hard to say that, you know, we, we kinda went on a, a month, two months, three months, and saw no change, and yet there were still fake profiles being, you know, produced with those exact images. And they're like, "Well, it's hard to prove how m- how effective we really are because, you know, if we're effective using and saying no one can use these pictures, then we don't really know how many accounts never got started." Like, yes, but you can clearly see that there are accounts being started, and there are just as many fake accounts out on the, on the net as there ever were, so it tells me we're really not doing much of anything. Like, well, it's, it's, you know, if you shade or crop the images, you know, our, uh, AI doesn't pick it up and doesn't identify it as the same picture or you. I'm like, "Okay, well," and so Cathy- Mm ... and I set about and we cropped, shaded, reversed imaged You know, a number of the very most common photos used, and, uh, those still f- and, and, and we created fake profiles with them. And the profiles, the, the pictures, no matter how we shaded them or cropped them, if they, you know, if we didn't really distort the images, the AI would still go, "Yeah, that's Bryan Denny, and these are the friends that we recommend you associate with," and they were all guys from Lagos, Nigeria, uh, that had used more images of me than I had ever used, uh, in establishing my own profile. So, uh, the whole AI won't be able to pick this up doesn't really, didn't really work. They, they- Yeah, that didn't even sound right when you said that. Yeah. I thought, "No, there's no way." Yeah, yeah. And, and that's, that's a lot to jump in on, uh but yeah. We've, uh, a lot of scar tissue and a lot of, uh, emotion in talking about how do we keep people from being scammed and, um, you know, and, uh, it is, uh, a, a frustrating effort to, to work through the social media giants to, to get them to take action, um, because it's all carrot. You know, they're making money, they're advertising, and- Yep ... you know, when you can say, "Hey, I've got this many people on the platform," um, if you show a downtick and how many, how many fake profiles are out there. Is it 5% of everybody, of the, the profiles, or is it 10, or is it 15, or is it 20? When you show a down- Could be 50 tick. Yeah. Yeah. A- so you know, it is, uh, it's certainly a tremendous amount and that's, that may not be the best news for investors. So if you're not forced to change, and because of Section 230 in the, uh, Communications Decency Act, they're not r- they're not required to change. They can't be held liable, so there's really no impetus for them to, to do anything to- Mm to fix themselves. So no matter how many times you show them and, and go, "Hey, this is where you're broken. Uh, let us help you," it doesn't work that way. So how long did it take for the second woman to reach out to you? Uh, it was almost simultaneously. I mean, once it- Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Nobody ever asked that question. Uh, once I've learned where to look and go into, uh, messages and where you've got, uh, you know, there's a, a section in messages where people wanna, you know, talk to you, but you're not friends with them, so you can't actually see them. You have to go over and look. Message request. And so I went over, and I started noticing like every week, and then it was every day, multiple times a day, of- Different women, all of this- Yeah, different women- ... this message? ... trying to, yeah, different women trying to confirm, "Hey, is, have I been talking to you? Is this what's going on?" And, uh, "Where did you go? We were talking about something." And, uh, I'm like, "Hey," I was always like, you know, I, I had a standard message, "Hey, I'm sorry this has happened to you. You've been talking to a scammer." Uh, and, uh, and kinda go on from there. But it was, it, it, you know, it, it's, it's not the best ... And it was, uh, hugely frustrating. Um, and I got mostly very nice people who were just trying to sort out where they were, what was going on, uh, why this was happening. Uh, my wife really gets the, the rough ones because people know, uh, you know, as soon as you're associated on social media together, they targeted her, and she's often in the storyline. Uh, she is an evil person, uh, you know, won't let me divorce her, has all the money. Um, and so they all come at her with, uh, with threats. Uh, you know, you, you can imagine how this plays on your emotion. I, I still travel for business and, you know, two years ago, I'm, I, the first day I get to Poland, my wife gets a, a letter from a lady in Poland saying, you know, "Woman to woman, I want you to know your husband and I have been in a relationship for several months now. I want you to divorce him. I've talked to your son. Uh, he wants his dad to be happy. He knows you were just married because you were pregnant, and it's time for you to let him go." And I get off the plane, I get to the hotel, and I call my wife, she's like, "Oh, by the way..." I'm like, "Yeah." Um- And so my wife, uh, is a saint for putting up with that, and she will try to talk folks off the ledge, so to speak. But, you know, she and I have had that discussion, you know, when somebody is... And, and she always starts with the same thing. "Well, this is really what's happening. You're being scammed. When was the last time you actually met with my husband in person?" And it's always, "Well, we've never actually met in person. Uh, we've just been on- talking online." And, uh, like, okay, so that's it. So, but when you, when you want to believe in this bad enough, um, and you're, and, and you need to believe in this bad enough because you're at a vulnerable part in your life and, uh, you, you're searching for something, a communication, a connection, then it's hard to, to talk people out of this. It really is. And I've tried to do it. Uh, my wife's tried to do it and, and knowing that it's just really difficult when somebody wants to believe 'cause, uh- It's almost impossible ... it, it is. And they'll go, "Well, you're part of the scammers." You know, in fact, we, we went so far, we've- I've talked to ladies in Australia, two ladies that donated, uh, you know, gave to scammers, were robbed by scammers. I shouldn't say donated, were- Yeah. Yeah ... of, uh, like $600,000. One of them still could not believe I wasn't, it wasn't me, or we hadn't talked. And going back to, uh, my, my partner in this, Kathy, her mom's friend still thinks, "Well, Bryan knows those guys, right? I mean, Bryan's in touch with them." Like, there, there are no guys. There are no one set of guys. These, this is organized crime. This is gangs. This is how people sustain themselves, uh, out of an internet cafe. Uh, so it's not like you or I sitting in front of your home computer by and large. I mean, so this is, uh... And so it's hard to track down. Even if you can bridge the huge barrier, uh, water barrier between us and Africa, and can reach out and talk to their, uh, law enforcement officials who, quite frankly, I've come to believe are no happier about any of this, uh, but what's to be done? I mean, their IP addresses go to computers in cafes and, uh, anybody could be on those computers any time of day. And- Yeah ... this is a cheap way to make a living. I mean, if you write 100, uh, people, you may get, you know, 15 to 20 to respond. Of those, you know, you may get two or three to actually give you some money, uh, a, uh, you know, a, a telephone, uh, SIM chip, or something, a gift card, then that, that's success. You've, you've benefited by it, right? And how long did it take to cut and paste a bunch of messages and get down to the 10 to 15 that you'll really be able to have a dialogue with and see where that goes? So. So let's go back to when this first happened. Did your wife ever have any suspicions about you and what you were doing online? Well- Or did she understand? So, yeah. Um, one of the... I did say my, it was my, uh, it was my first wife, uh, who dealt with this, uh, from the get-go, and, uh, it was, yeah, she you know, we were... I was married for 26 years, uh, my first wife, and, um, she had a hard time understanding why this was happening and what was going on, and, you know, with so many people coming out of the woodwork to tell her that this was happening, um, it becomes like, well, I don't know what's true or not. I'm like, okay. I mean, and so that becomes problematic. And, uh- So that really affected your relationship? Oh, yeah, it, it, yes. I mean, it, it was people I worked- Was that the demise? Yeah. Pe- people that I work with, people that I know, my kids, I mean, they all know, so, so it's, it's, m- uh, a couple of my kids, you know, and they only really talk about my son 'cause he's in the pictures when this started. They don't talk about the rest of my kids, uh, uh, who one of which shuns social media entirely. My son shuns it, um, and, you know, because he's forever trapped as, uh, a 13, 14-year-old because that's when the pictures are. He's, he's not, he, he's considerably older at this point. He's got his own life, but he is like the, like my daughters, uh, very aware of what's going on and, uh, you know, this is something you start to disclose to people right off the bat. Um, and so yeah, I went through a divorce, uh, and then I was, you know, my, I started dating again a, a couple years afterwards and, you know, this is one of those things, "What is, what is it that I should know about you that I don't know?" Well- If you were to Google me, you would find this out. It's like, "Okay, well, I'm, I'm tracking that." And we dated, and, uh, it got pretty serious, and she's like, "You know, you should post stuff about us." And I'm like, "I don't want to do that," because you can't take it back, right? Once you post and that picture's out there, now she becomes the, you know, the, uh- She's the bad guy ... first wife they wrote off as, uh, died. Um, this wife, they're like, "Oh, she's a horrible person." They, you know... The, the stories that will, you know, will be generated and stuff. And, and I said, "You, you can look away and not see it. You can not respond to the messages," but I'm like, "You can never make them not message." You, you'll have this. Uh, this will happen for the rest of my life. This will happen for the rest of my wife's life. This will long outlive me. Um, and, and very early on, like I said, most of the women that have reached out to me have been understanding, and I, I get the nice, the nice ladies trying to reset their compass. I mean, and the, and since we've been doing this for a decade, I've, I've blocked maybe 20 people who were just, "I know I wanna... I, I need to talk to you. I really wanna see you. I know where you live." Um, because you can really search and find out all this stuff. Right. "I, I am, I am, I wanna link up. I'm in, I'm in your town." I'm like, you know, those are the kind of folks that you'll, you'll not be able to to swayed. Um, or, "I just wanna see you and your wife together." I'm like, uh, you know, "Okay, no." Um, but it is, uh, it, it's, uh, it's a thing. I, I get that kind of stuff, and you have to explain that kind of stuff. And, um, you know- So pretend like... Because you know I was scammed, right? Do you know that about me? Yes, ma'am. Um, so pretend that I was one of your victims. Right. Why can't we be friends now? So, uh, that's a great question, and so many ladies early on said, "Hey, I wanna help. How do I do that?" And I'm like, "Well, just go in and report, uh, any of the fake Bryan Denneys you see, that'd be great." But very quickly it became, "Well, let's talk, let's be friends. I wanna be... I already know you." I'm like, "You, you don't know me. You know someone who was pretending to be me, and you have a relationship with that person that's based on a bunch of lies. I can't have a I, I can't... We can't be friends because you don't know me, and it's not productive for me." It's not, one, it's not productive for the lady to be involved with someone who, uh, you know, an image, you know, she's had this whole scam thing going on, and then she's figured out, "Okay, this is the real Bryan Denney. I wanna be friends with you." That it's not a healthy place to be for the victim. I think the best thing a victim can do is say, "I got scammed. I'm gonna tell people about it. I'm gonna suck it down, and I know I'm embarrassed." I was hugely embarrassed by all of this, and it's just my pictures were being used, but, but hugely embarrassing for me. But you have to kind of, I, I say have that come to Jesus kind of thing where you go, "This is what happened to me, and I'm tougher now. I learned something. I'm moving on with the rest of my life. I'm not gonna let this be the defining moment for me." Um, I think there's something hugely powerful. That's how I typically deal with things. Um, and I think that, that's important. And it's one of the reasons when Kathy reached out in November of 2016, she's like, "I wanna help," and I'm like, "Okay. I've been down this road before. Uh, you're gonna wanna talk, you're gonna chat, you're gonna wanna, you know, you know, spend a lot of time us talking." Like, "I, I have a family. I'm trying to focus on my family." Um, then I ended up, Kathy started sending letters to everybody and their brother to include people in the Pentagon, and I was still walking in the Pentagon at that time doing some consulting. I'm like, "All right, I gotta work with Kathy 'cause Kathy's gonna, uh, Kathy's gonna take, you know, take us, take us to the White House." So, um, and, and Kathy's great and has been just a superstar. So- Yeah ... yeah. So yeah. Wow. Is there any victim story that, that, um, you, that still kind of haunts you? Or are they all pretty much the same? You know, they're all the same, which is haunting in itself. They're all the same in that there's a person who is, you know, in a vulnerable point in their life. Uh, and mo- and often, and Kathy will tell you that the mi- demographic has, has changed. There's a lot of younger people, uh, that are affected by this now. But typically it's, you know, people that should be enjoying the fruits of their labor in the last of their working years with their spouse. They've accumulated some money. They should be looking at, you know, what's to come and, uh, and you know, they have maybe lost a loved one or something like that. I mean, you, you know, there's been a loss there, and they're lonely, and they try to fill that void, and people shouldn't be punished for that. And, uh, but that is the common, the common and, and saddest part about this from my perspective. People are punished for being, punished for being lonely, wanting to have a connection. Um, and that is, uh, and that's really, uh, you know, tough to take. Uh, have there been some standouts? Yeah. Listening to little, you know, um, ladies well into the retirement age who have mortgaged their house, lost their house, given away their kids' inheritance, um, and, and now have nothing left and will never-- They won't live long enough to ever recoup the losses or make good. And now they've gotta tell their kids, uh, not only, you know, "That was your inheritance, but can I... I need a place to stay." Um, you know, and that is, that, that happens. People give away everything. They've mortgaged everything. There was, uh, yeah there was a- That happened to me. Yeah. I, it, yeah, I'm, and I'm preaching to the choir. Uh- Yeah. Yeah, you are ... um, we were set up to be the front, the lead article in, uh- Uh, I wanna say, uh, in a, a pretty popular, uh, newspaper and, uh, we were set up to be the front and, uh, where was it? I wonder, it may have been Dateline. Um, and, uh, we had a really good interview series here, uh, at my home and, uh, the backstory was about a lady who was married, uh, had been in a, a romance scam with an individual and had, and basically given away the family's, uh, uh, you know, the, the family's money. And, uh, her husband was aware, was tracking it, and the, the story was going on, and all of a sudden, you know, for one reason or another, it became too much and he, the husband, uh, took his wife's life, took her father's life, he was living with them, and then took his own life. And, uh, and, uh, and I don't believe... While that's one instance I could reference, I don't believe that kind of, uh, violence, uh, is, is unique. I think that happens more often than not when people find out they've lost their, you know, their spouse because they've, you know, may have done this or given away all their money. Uh, and, you know, and then suicide on top of that. Uh, you know, when pe- when you, when you realize this has happened and what is, and there's... You, you know, uh, as well as I, the, what recourse, what recourse do you have? I mean I, I go back to talking about it and understanding that you're not alone. You're not the first person this has happened to, you're not gonna be the last. Despite a lot of great people trying to, uh, educate folks about it- Mm-hmm ... it, it's still a very profitable crime, which is why it is still, you know, very much in existence. One lady said, uh, again, early on, she's like, "Well, you'll be old and ugly one day, and your pictures won't look very good," and, you know. Like, well, I, I appreciate that, but the pictures that they have are the pictures that they have. Yeah. The pictures don't- They don't get any older in those pictures ... uh, yeah, exactly. I'll never, my son will never be older than 13. I will never be older than, uh, oh my gosh. You'll never have gray hair. Yeah, yeah. It, it's a, I mean, it's, it's, uh, as long... She's like, "Well," and she was, you know, really fussing at me because she's like, "What ha- why haven't you done enough to stop this?" I said, "The thing I would tell people to do is do not give money to strangers." All right? And that, and I- Easier said than done ... something I learned as a, a, yeah, I, which is, uh, something I learned as a kid, and then I w- and then it occurred after saying that for years, "Don't give money to strangers," the reality is when you give money to somebody online, they're not a stranger. You think, you think, you believe, because typically we're good, good and trusting people, we believe we know them. We believe we know- Well, and they've built that trust- Yeah ... long before they ask for money. Right. So you trust that this person is who they say they are and all of that. Right. Have you become aware of any, like, AI? Have they, um, have they made you talk now through those pictures? So I haven't seen any, uh, AI. Well, I, I have seen some images that have been, uh, edited. I know that any time I've done any kind of podcast, like I used to would be very leery about doing any podcast or video- Oh ... where I was recorded because it is as sure as we're sitting, uh, here, they will take this and manipulate it to make it look like, change the background and make it look like I'm somewhere, you know, trying to conduct a phone call, you know, with the, with, with an intended victim. And, um, and if the speech isn't great or it's, you know, a little off track, easily explained by poor cell connection, uh, poor internet connection. You know, I'm in a secret location I can't share, which is why, uh, the cover as a military person works so well because I'm doing something top secret away from here, and I can't really tell you what that is. And, you know, it, it's a little strange to most people, but I need you to send me, sign these pieces of paper saying I have a place to go to while I'm on leave, and I need $500 for a plane ticket, or I've been wounded and I need money for medicine. If you're in the military, you know that, that's ridiculous. None of that matters. But if you're not, this all becomes like, ah, okay. Yeah. So a believable thing. A believable... And it builds, again, if you don't know how fake it is, it builds credibility towards a story So how do we stop this? What do we do? Yeah. Um, uh- The $64 question ... I go back to the whole don't give money to strangers, but that's, as you know, it, it's easier said than done. Uh, I think certainly a change in the 230. I don't know that, you know, scrapping the 230 is the, the way to go, but I think there is a part of it... And the 230 basically says, you know, if you own the social media platform, uh, you cannot be held liable for what gets posted there. Um, but I don't... I think, you know, and that was to help create the growth of the internet, uh, to get it up and running, and we are well beyond, uh, that at this juncture. And so I would say, you know, if you've been made aware that someone is selling drugs, uh, if you've been made aware of other illegal or illicit activities that are taking place on the platform, and good due diligence has been done to try to explain, "Hey, my pictures are being used. I would, I would like no more profiles to ever be established using my pictures, and I would like these accounts to come down." And at one point, we, we met with Facebook three times in person and five or six times through a video teleconference to a point where they assigned someone, uh, at the home office in California that we could go, "Hey, we've, we've reported the following profiles, and they are still active. Would you take them down?" That person would go in and take, take those profiles down. But that meant they've gotta have a human in the loop. They've gotta have somebody to take action and somebody to do that. And, um, and that was a good thing, but it is time-consuming for them. They have to dedicate a human being to do it. They do it for me, you know, they have to do it for everybody else, and so it quickly, you know, fell out of favor as something they wanted to do, and they kinda gave us the, the, the cold shoulder. So I go back to your question, what, what could we do? We need to ask our elected officials to change the 230 so there is a bit of stick that goes along with the carrot for social media giants who are seeing just profit but understand that they have an obligation to their base, the people that are on their platform, to safeguard them from fraud to the best of their ability. So, and again, I don't think I'm asking for miracles. I said to the best of their ability. When it has been brought to their attention, right? They should be able to do something to, to protect the consumer, so to speak. Or and yeah, so we need to change the laws. Um, but are the politicians willing to do that simply because don't these giants put a lot of money in their re- Sure you know, their campaigns? Sure. So Cathy and I went on a, uh, speaking tour in DC, and we were between the Senate and the Hart building any number of times. We've, we've been up maybe six, seven times at this point, always meeting with two or three elected, uh, officials based on, uh, you know, what, what seats they held and what, uh, departments. And one of the very first times we were up there, uh, we were meeting with a staffer, uh, in his, uh, early 20s, uh, who as we sat and talked, uh, had a keychain with his office keys on it. And on his keychain was a little Facebook fob. And I'm like, "Yeah, this is a complete waste of time." We are ... Where you're talking about an organization that dumps, you know, more money than you and I can imagine into campaigns to have people, uh, in elected off- in, in positions of authority and power to go, "Yep, this is for the good of the country to not, you know, manipulate social media. This is a First Amendment issue," um, which I absolutely think it is not. This is a, a, a crime, and, uh, uh, and that kind of thing should be, you know, should be immune from the First Amendment. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's been largely frustrating. Occasionally we'll find somebody who's heard of romance scams and is interested in, in taking a position on it. Um, that said, you know, we've been doing this for 10 years Yeah, that doesn't give me much hope. Yeah. And, and then, you know, we hear about all the scam compounds in Cambodia, and all that's been, that's being built over there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really, it's gonna be devastating. All of the US's money is gonna go to Cambodia. You know? Americans aren't gonna have anything left, and it's not just the older generation at this point in time, it's anybody with any sort of funds at all. Yep. Yep. We, we are, you know, trading it away, giving it away. I mean, and, you know, the, the folks on the other end of that line, and I, I probably used to be in this category where it was like, you know, people get what they sign up for. We don't know why they would do that. But I, I have come to see this, and I react negatively when people, you know, are callous about it. Um, and we, you still, you know, my, my favorite question going into, you know, a, the, a, an office in DC is have you heard about this? Like, "Well, no, it's doesn't really affect us." I'm like, "Doesn't affect your constituents?" Mm-hmm. The FBI has very good numbers, uh, on b- state-by-state basis that would say that it does affect your constituents. You just don't know about it. Yeah. Let us, let us break it down for you. And, uh, and, and I hate having those conversations because quite frankly it's not new. There are whole TV series dedicated, uh, to things like this, romance scams and catfishing and internet crime. There's lots of people talking about it. But if, you know, if you have the, again, and if you have the desire to listen to it and know that this is a thing and it affects people, uh, across the globe, it's a, again, a international- Yeah crime, then, then you get it and you wanna go, "How, how do we stop it?" But until it happens to a loved one, um, you know, it's just something that happens to other people. That's what I thought, too. You know? And- And then it happened. And- Yep ... but, you know, it's, it's ramping up so much now. It almost seems like you're either a scammer or you're a target of a scammer. Yeah. Those are the two types of people in this world. Yeah. They're, it's, it's so massive, and it, I think it's a national security issue, and I just don't think our government is willing to even look at it that way. Well, and, um, and exactly. And so all the money that's leaving the country, and it's, you know, billions of dollars, where does it go? I mean- Cambodia ... where, where, where some of it is in Cambodia, for sure. Uh- Right ... what's to say it's not also funding terrorism? I mean, what's to say it isn't doing a lot of those things? It could be feeding a village. It could be funding terrorism. The reality is we, we don't know where that money goes. And if we did know, you know, would we, would we be compelled to try to stop it or do something about it? I, I would, I would say yes. And the govern- the US and the UK just recently got, what, $16 billion back from that, uh, Chen Zen, Chen Zi, or can't remember what his name is. Right. That Chinese guy who got extradited back to China, and that money should be going back to victims, and are they ever gonna see that money? Probably not No, I would, I would say, I mean, how do you rack and stack and prioritize victims? I mean, somebody else will, will claim that and, you know, I, I- But you've got paperwork that shows that you were... I mean- Yeah. I- And if they don't, isn't it just one thief stealing from another? That is a way to look at it, yes. Uh, that is a way to look at it. I was actually surprised that, uh, Western Union, um, you know, Western Union was held liable and forced to pay back a percentage of monies that were used in scams back to the, the victim, and I'm like, "Why Western Union?" Right? Western Union is a bank. It, it's just a, another middleman. If you walk in and go, "Western Union, I wanna send a wire to here," and they go, they say, "We don't think you should do that." Uh, be like, "Well, it's my money. I'm gonna send a wire wherever I want to," right? Yet Western Union was held liable. But because you guys met on social media and had this whole conversation on social media, they're not responsible at all. That's like, they're, they're good, but the ATM machine is now responsible. That only thing Western Union did was facilitate the transfer. Everything that led up to that came through, you know, uh, a social media, WeChat, you know, uh, WhatsApp, Facebook, Messenger. Yeah. That, that's where the, that's where the deals are made So what have you, what have you noticed that's changed since the time that you've started this up until now? I mean, obviously AI is in the picture now. But have they gone from Western Union to the crypto ATMs? Um, what, what have you been noticing? Sure. A, a, a lot of that. So there's, you know, certainly I would say more sophisticated, um, but in reality it, it's still the same old game. Certainly the using and, and, and collating together videos is something I see more of now. Um- You know, looking at the, when they don't find the picture they want of me, making a picture they want, uh, with some, you know, pretty crude cutting and pasting and things like that. Um, using more, and this is really something we saw over the last couple of three years, using, uh, money mules in the States to transfer money to, just to add another layer of, yeah, this is really believable. This, you're gonna send this to my sister or my mom, and she's gonna send it to me. And, uh, you know, just another layer of, yeah, who would go to all that trouble if this was fake? Um- Yeah ... so I see, uh, you know, a bit more of that, just another bit to add credibility. Um, it's still the ba- it's still the same game at the end of the day, but, you know, different layers. Uh, yep, crypto is involved. Um, but, you know, if I was truthful, I would say, like, my target audience, um, you know, I'm, I'm rapidly approaching my late, late 50s, and, uh- ... my target audience is probably the, you know, 50, 60, 70, uh, genre. The, like me, that goes, "Yep, I know what cryptocurrency is. I'm not doing any, I don't, I don't deal in cryptocurrency." And so I don't know that, that the younger crowd is definitely involved in that. But for my, you know, my generation, uh, plus or plus a decade or two is really into the, "Yep, we had a conversation. You won me over. Uh, I wanna support you. I, I believe in this. Yeah, I trust you. Let me know, you know, what, what you need," and, and this kind of thing. Um, and I don't think it, it's really much more complex than that. Yeah. So it's, yeah. A- and I see the same, it's kind of like the same patterns, they've just got new tools now. Sure. You know, new, different ways to do that. Yes, ma'am. So, um, you are now a co-founder of the nonprofit. Tell us a little bit about that. Sure. And how, a- and you've told a little bit, but let us know- Yeah ... what you do. So Kathy and I founded, uh, Advocating Against Romance Scammers, and, um, you know, in an effort to do one of a couple of three things. One was to, uh, you know, educate people, and that's the thing we can most easily do by talking about romance scams, letting people know what's going on, letting people know it's a real thing. Um, i- in every speaking opportunity we get, we engage in, and, uh, just to share, you know. Because the more you can talk to people about it, if you can talk to people about it and prevent it from happening, then that's, that's, that's the way to do it, right? Because everything else, as you know, you're just policing up the backside and doing damage control. And there's- Mm-hmm ... little, you know- You, you tell me. There's little, there's some solace in that in terms of getting that message out and you're now motivated, but you'd be a lot more motivated, uh, you know, you'd, you'd be a lot better off if you hadn't lost the money and the farm and everything else. And so we do try to educate and talk to people about it. Um, we wanted to see some ju- justice done, um, where we could, and, uh, the FBI opened up a case, uh, uh, a case on me, uh, based on the dollar amount that had left our country, and that was really, uh, a good, uh, a good thing. Unfortunately, like so many of these things, it died, uh, you know, after it languished over the ocean and, you know, there was no real way to go out and track, hey, who are the people, people's groups that are doing this? So that wasn't overly productive. But we do like to see justice done where, where it can be done. Um, and then there's a third aspect of this, and that's just informing people about the 230 and talking about, uh, the potential to change the language in that bill that, you know, would allow social media giants to be held accountable to a de- a, a degree. Again, this isn't a big, "Oh, gotcha. You had one fake profile up and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna shut it down." Nothing like that. I mean, really it's just, "Hey, if you know this is a problem, you have to address this problem to some degree," um, versus lip service. And every time I see any testimony talking about how to change this, it's all... or how to stop this, how to influence this, it all seems to me just lip services. Uh, I learned in the Army, whatever the, whenever the commander says, "Hey, these are the priorities," great. Now watch where dollars go, right? And if dollars don't go in or on a line, but the priority is training or, or new equipment or whatever, then where is it going? That's really the priority. And so since we talked about this, uh, to Facebook in 2016, they opened up a dating site, they opened up Facebook Marketplace, yet I can't see that anything whatsoever... In fact, i- i- yeah, I would argue that if anything, the reporting process is worse now because where I used to get notifications going, "Hey, thanks for reporting this profile. We're gonna check it out, uh, and get back to you," I don't get anything now. Now I can report a profile and I don't, I may get something back. More often than not, I'll get nothing back. Yeah. And I certainly don't get a follow-up going, "Hey, yeah, we killed this profile because you're right. It was violating our community standards. You, Bryan Denny, can only have one profile, and we see your pics, and yeah, and now this one's... We're get- we're gonna get rid of that." That, that never happens. I think that, uh, in order for those guys to take any action, maybe they should be made to, um, have a, a big pot of money where, like, when I get scammed, if I can prove it, I get to go to them because that's who scammed me. Actually, my, mine came from LinkedIn, you know. Right. Which I never thought that there was a problem with LinkedIn. Yeah. But if they had to reimburse victims, they would probably start to do something about it. If they had to pay to reimburse victims, or if they had to pay sums of money to educate or do public service things. I mean, e- if not everybody is just atrocious as this, uh, as I would say Facebook is. But group, uh, dating sites like match.com, I really, uh, Kathy and I went out, we spoke at one of their, uh, uh, seminars in California, um, because it's a pay-to-play dating site. They are very concerned about their image. They want to keep the, the fake Bryan Denneys off their site. 'Cause as I said, it's, I, I'm a blight. Either I'm a, if I'm on your dating site, and I'm on, I'm on countless dating sites, my images. I personally am not on any. But at one point- ... we, we stopped looking at, like, 57 from, uh- Oh my gosh ... Christian Singles to Chinese Only to blah, blah, blah. I mean, it was just crazy. Um, and like, if I'm on a dating site that people are paying to be on, or any, any site, it's like, at, at worst or at, at best case I'm a missed connection. You and I talk, you know, like, I don't, this guy's not for me. See ya. That, that, that's a, a mis- that's a missed connection, and that's a ding on your site, 'cause you don't want that. If at worst I'm a, "Hey, we connected, and I scammed you out of money," then that's really bad, right? And so they pride themselves on having a, and match.com owns, like, seven sites and, or eight sites. No, they don't pay me to say anything positive about them. But I can tell you, they, they took it very seriously getting fakes off of their site, and I, I appreciated that. Are they gonna be perfect at it? No. Um, but they are generally concerned about getting fakes off their site, uh, because it's ba- it's just bad business. Yeah. And if people pay to, people will stop paying to be on their site. And if people paid to be on Facebook or some of the other social media places, uh, and Facebook was worried about losing their subscriber base, yeah, they would probably take it serious too. But right now they don't care about it, because they p- make money off advertising dollars and, and the like. And so it helps them to have as many profiles, even if they know how many, you know, what, 25, 30% are fake. Are we gonna get to the point where- So many real people are fleeing Facebook that they're just gonna be propped up by face- or by fake people. Yeah, I love that idea. I, I can't wait for that to happen. Uh- Yeah ... I think, um, uh, you know, there was, before Facebook, remember, uh, there was something called MySpace. Yeah. Whatever happened to MySpace? It just died, right? Yeah. It seemed pretty much silly. And I, that was kind of when I was getting into computers, and I didn't even really go there. I, I never had a MySpace thing. I can just- Yeah ... everybody had one, and then one day it died. I would like to see Facebook die the same- Poor old thing ... very sudden, corrupt death. Yeah. I mean, how many... I mean, and like I said, my kids aren't on it now. There are other platforms. I mean, I saw something recently that said, uh, you know, Facebook is for, is for grandparents go to share pictures of their grandkids and for, uh, anarchists. I'm like, okay. I, I kinda buy that 'cause that's what I see on it. And so I am not on it much anymore. I haven't posted anything real about me in years. I have businesses and I have clients, and I would love to advertise where I go as a consultant- Mm-hmm ... to support my clients, but I can't do that. 'Cause as soon as I do that, I indicate where I'm gonna... I ga- a schedule, a routine, and where I'm at, and that's not good for me. That's not good for my family. Um, and so I have to think about those considerations. Can't you do it once you get back? Say, "Hey, I was here." Maybe when I get back. Yep. Yeah. Which is not nearly as good as advertising, "I'm gonna be somewhere. Let's link up and talk about business." But I'm like, I can always go, "Hey, I was there. I hope you saw me." Uh- Yeah ... not nearly as effective. Yeah. So before I let you go, um- Tell us what thing not, don't send people money. That's where I was going. I knew that was coming up. Yes. You should not give money to strangers. What else? What else can you tell people about red flags and what they should or shouldn't do? You know, the, listen to the verbiage. If it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. Listen to the, the gram- look at grammar. I mean, I'm from, I got a public school North Carolina education, but you know, I can string a sentence or two together that it, it makes it sound like, "Okay, this is legit." Be critical. Put on your critical thinking hat. Put on your, uh, a- you know, Angela Lansbury thinking cap and go, "Is this right? Is this true? Am I, do I want this to be true?" Or am I going, "Huh, what, what tells me this isn't right?" Um, and, and think it, think that through. Think that, think that through before you give money to somebody, because once you give money, um, they do not wanna let you go. Um, and I've seen these get ugly, nasty, threatening, um, and that, that's a scary place to be in I, I always think, you know, now that I reflect back on what I did wrong, which was pretty much everything, um, the way that I would like people to think about it is, who is it that reaches out to you out of the blue? Right. Is it really, you know, I mean, they're in another state, they're in another country. They're either very desperate or they plan to rob you. Yeah. Those are pretty much the only two options, aren't they? Yeah. I- And I don't think that you wanna be associated with either one, so my advice is getting to be, you just can't engage. I, I, I think that that's an excellent thought, and just to get people to, to think critically about that conversation. Yeah. Would you... If you walked up to somebody on the street and they approached you and started this conversation, would you... Where would you be? Would you go, "Okay, yeah, I'm good with this," or, "No, this doesn't... This is too... What am I hearing here? This isn't right." I, I had very early on, again, like the first couple of weeks of this, I had a lady texting me going, "Hey, I just w- need to know, you know, that you're the real guy, and could we talk for a minute?" And I'm like, "I, I'm telling you, you reached out and found me. I didn't find you. You found me, and you asked me if I was this guy." And I'm like, "Yes." She's like, "I really need to hear your voice." I'm like, "Okay. All right." And so I, I'm like, "Give me your phone number." And I called her and I said, "Hey," I said, "I'm Bryan Denney. You are not in a relationship with me. You have photos that this guy..." Told- She's like, "Well, I'm texting him right now, and he says to hang up, that you're a, you're a criminal and you're a scammer." I'm like, "Okay." I said, "One-" Yeah ... "that, that makes me feel really uncomfortable that you're talking to him right now about me, and uh, and he knows, and now this is gonna, this is on me." I'm like, "But think about it like this. You asked me to call you to tell you who I was." I'm telling you, you're texting a guy who's trying to take money from you. I'm gonna hang up the phone and I will never talk to you again. We're... That's it. I will never ask you for anything. We will never have another conversation, right? But that guy's gonna keep talking to you 'cause you're giving him money. She's like, "I just don't know who to believe." I'm like, "You asked me to call you- Right ... and I'm doing that. Like, I can't help you any more than to tell you, you should not have a conversation with this guy. You should not give him any money. He is scamming you, and I, I'm gonna hang up now," and did. And, uh, I never know, but I'm like, yeah, she probably lost... She, she wanted to believe. She wanted to believe. Well, yeah. And, and in psychology they call that sunk cost fallacy. Yeah. You've gone, you've gone for so long believing what they're telling you, and you think that eventually they're going to pay you back. So- Right ... if I just hang in there a little bit longer- Right ... if I do this, do that, then he's gonna come home. Yeah. He's gonna pay me back. We're gonna have a wonderful life. Yep. That is so hard to pull people out of. Good money after bad. We do it in the military. "Well, we almost made it through this wire obstacles, but we all lost all our engineers. We just need more engineers." No, maybe this was the wrong place. Maybe we should have... Maybe we should be somewhere else. But it's, it's the same. It is hard for us to give up on things that we wanna believe in- Yeah ... and we can make happen, so. So, do you think, uh, Mark Zuckerberg will ever, um, be able to redeem himself? He didn't start out this way, right? Yeah, I don't think- Was it just money that got in the way? I don't think he believes he needs any redemption whatsoever. I think he believes very highly in himself and the people that surround him. I think, uh, uh, they're paid to believe highly in him. Oh, so he's just totally out of touch. Yeah. I don't, I don't think he, none of this phases him at all. I mean- I, I think he is, uh, he is, you know, he's living his best life. And, uh- Do you think that last lawsuit did anything to change any of that? Nah. I mean, I... How much money would you have to take from a guy who's worth billions of dollars and billion- Well, somebody finally did it to the cigarette companies, right? And to, to OxyContin people, um, sorta. Sorta. But- But- ... they're still out there. Yeah, I mean, how many years have we had a... You know, you mentioned tobacco. Um, tobacco is still very popular in many parts of the world. Um- North Carolina ... well, uh, yeah, it... North Carolina is probably one of them. But when I say- Israel the world, I mean over in Europe, uh, where I spend a lot of time, uh, the Middle East. I mean, it's like, yeah, we're adults, we can do what we want to do, and- Yeah ... smoking is one of those things. So yeah, it's not, uh, it's not unheard of. But, you know, it is, it is a thing. Well, he... Does he... Will he ever redeem himself? I don't think he has a consciousness that thinks that he needs redemption. I think he thinks he's fine. He provides a service, and people sign up for that service, so. Yeah. I guess if people stop signing up for the services, um, that's- That's when it would matter ... he'll start to worry. That's when it would matter. Yeah. And, and maybe, you know, hopefully what you said about Facebook becoming MySpace, hopefully it's headed in that direction. Would not hurt my feelings, but- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bryan, thank you so much for giving me a day in the life of Bryan. You know, I mean, it's like- ... I, I'm so sorry that that is your life now. Eh, you know, I, I do not, uh... This doesn't define me. I still get out and do great and wonderful things, uh, and, uh, you know- But you're not mean to the ladies that contact you, are you? Am I mean to them? Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you've been doing this for so long, I mean, I can imagine that you've got some pretty thick skin by now. No, like I said, I I think in my demeanor and everything I kind of said, I see ... I, I mean, quite sympathetic, uh, to people, I that have been caught up in this. I mean, it's, horrific. And, uh, yeah, what people, you know, don't need, like, one more guy, yelling at them. I mean, that's not the intent. Our intent is to try to provide people an outlet and get them pointed in the right direction and, uh, and this kind of thing. So, uh, it's a lot of cleaning up after the fact. I wish it was different. Um, and I'm sure we make a difference and, and, and keep this from happening to some people. I just, I, you know ... It's hard to say how many people are saved by what we do and don't end up in, uh, in a scam, but you know, as long as we believe that we help people avoid this kind of thing, we're, we'll be doing it. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your willingness to, to come on and be on this podcast. I, I don't think that your victimization is really thought about as much, but you're more of a victim than I am because you, it hit you broadside. You had no clue- Oh, yeah ... it was coming. Uh, it's full on, yeah. And I'll be speaking about that in, uh, this week, uh- Yeah ... up in, yep, up in DC. So. I did finally get ahold of the real guy that I had been searching for as well. Yeah. And it pretty much went the same way as yours. I mean, he was nice, but it was like, "I'm married." He has, like, six kids. He's got a grandkid. Yeah. Well, some grandkids. And it was just, I mean- He, he at first, you know, just kinda cut it off and blocked me, and then I went, a few months later when I decided to do the podcast, I said, "Hey, sorry, I know you don't wanna talk to me, but I'm just gonna let you know now that I'm doing this podcast and your name and your likeness may come up," you know? And so he reached out and, and he was, he was very nice. In fact, we at one point were kind of thinking of collaborating, but then he backed out of that, which, you know, is probably a good idea. But, um, you know, because he gets messages all around, you know, from women all over the place. I know that I really dumped on him, so that was kind of why I was curious about how the women contact you and how it makes you feel. 'Cause it's... I, I was just in a really, really bad place when I reached out to him. And like I mentioned, uh, that, you know, you end up breaking up with somebody, you know, once a week. And, uh, I mean, it- it's emotional for... A- and most guys, like I mean, I never lost anything. Um, but now I'm dealing with this and I'm trying to talk to people. I mean, and it's not just onesies and twosies. It's every day, every week you can get caught up with this, and telling this story and go, "Yeah, I'm not making any difference whatsoever." And who, who's really hurt? You know, it's the guys trying to like say, "It's not me," and sometimes that message is received, and sometimes it's not, and sometimes it's, "Hey, can we just be friends?" And it's like, you know, my wife frowns on that and I, I, I, I- You know? So. Yeah. And it's 50/50. And you don't wanna, you don't wanna have a, a herd of 500 women after you all the time emailing you and stuff, so you know. That's why, yeah. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Now, how did, how did I hear that you are one of the most prolific, uh, photographs out there? Yeah, Facebook had said, uh, yeah, I was the most replicated profile on social media, and I'm like, "Okay, that's a interesting stat." But yeah. Wow. Not something you wanna hear. No, no. All right. Well, thanks again so much. I really appreciate you doing this. Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate it. You have a good one. Thank you. Okay. All right. Bye-bye. Bye-bye