Two Women One Mission: Exposing Romance Scammers and Protecting Victims

They say laughter is the best medicine. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop romance scammers—but it certainly helps expose them.

In this episode of *The Romance Scam Rebellion*, I sit down with author, scam baiter, and professional destroyer of fraudsters' dreams, Becky Holmes and fraud prevention advocate Anna Rowe.

We begin with Becky's remarkable journey from trolling romance scammers for amusement to becoming one of the UK's most recognizable voices in fraud awareness. We discuss her bestselling books, *Keanu Reeves Is Not In Love With You* and *The Future of Fraud*, and how a few cheeky exchanges with scammers evolved into a mission to educate the public about one of the fastest-growing crimes in the world.

Anna shares her own powerful story and the experiences that led her to establish two organizations dedicated to supporting victims and raising awareness: Catch the Catfish and LoveSaid. Together, we explore the devastating human impact of fraud and the urgent need for better education, support, and prevention.

Along the way, we discuss the global spread of organized fraud, the industrial-scale scam compounds operating around the world, the alarming evolution of technology, and why virtually no one is immune to manipulation.

There are laughs. There are jaw-dropping stories. There are moments that will make you furious. Most importantly, there is a reminder that behind every fake profile, every stolen photograph, and every scam message lies a very real human cost.

Whether you're a scam survivor, an advocate, or simply someone who thinks Keanu Reeves might secretly be messaging you at 2 a.m., this episode is for you.

Spoiler alert: he isn't.

Transcript

 Welcome back to another episode of the Romance Scam Rebellion. You might think that the United States is the only place where scammers thrive. Well, you would be wrong. Fraud is a global problem, and in the coming episodes, I'll be highlighting people from different countries and continents who are fighting back in their own unique ways Today, I'm joined by two of the hardest working voices in the United Kingdom's fight against fraud, Becky Holmes and Anna Rowe. They arrived at this space through very different journeys, but they share the same mission: to educate the public, support scam victims and targets, and help stop fraud before it happens. Becky Holmes is the author of Keanu Reeves Is Not In Love With You, a book I highly recommend. Through a combination of humor, wit, and persistence, Becky has become well known for turning the tables on romance scammers by wasting their time with increasingly ridiculous conversations. But beneath the humor lies a serious message about the devastating impact of fraud and the tactics scammers use to manipulate their victims. She recently released a second book, The Future of Fraud, which explores both the history of scams and the rapidly evolving threats that technology will bring in the years ahead. Anna Rowe's journey began after her personal experience with fraud. That experience led her to create Catch the Catfish. It's a website dedicated to fraud awareness and education. She then later teamed up with Cecilie Fjellhoy to co-found Lovesad, a nonprofit organization helping victims around the world. Anna has spent years on the front lines of fraud education and advocacy, and brings valuable insights that all of us can learn from. One topic we didn't have time to cover during this conversation is an important difference between the United Kingdom and the United States when it comes to reimbursement after fraud. While the UK system is far from perfect, some scam victims may have avenues to seek reimbursement or independent review. Here in the United States, victims who are deceived into sending money to criminals often have few, if any, options for recovering their losses. Now, let's get to the conversation. So thank you so much, both of you, for being here. I, I can't tell you how excited this made me when you both agreed to do this because I thought, I'm learning that there's a, a huge connection between all these people who are trying to do the same thing, which is great because we need an army. It's, it's- Yeah ... you know, when I very first started my podcast, I just thought, I, I can't do this alone. Nobody can do this alone. It, it's gotta be You know, and it's not just the US, and that's why I wanted to bring you guys in here too, because people maybe here in the US think it's only a US problem. Oh my God. It's not. I mean, it- It's global It is not. Yeah. Every single country. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, because those are the biggest places that... Right? Um- Australia, UK- Right ... US. Mm. There's, I mean, Philippines is dire. There's a lot of victims. I had 40% extra victims come in through COVID from the Philippines, whereas I'd not really had that many before. That was really sad. Brazil is massive. I get lots- Really? ... of Brazilian victims. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it- Let's, let's start with you, Miss Becky, because you are very cheeky, as I come to find out. I I didn't know a whole lot about you before. I just decided to take the chance and, and see if you'd be on the podcast. But I read your books. Uh, well, I've read, uh, Keanu Reeves. I have not read... Well, I'm halfway through your other one. But- Oh, good. They're good ... um, Keanu Reeves one, um- I, a- and I didn't know what to expect. All of a sudden you're talking to these guys, like telling them that you eat underwear and that you've put, you know, heads in ovens and things like this, and I went, "What is this girl doing? What..." You know? What is that all- "What's that all about?" Yeah. And, and then I realized, it just hit me that, you know, you're just toying with them. Tell us about how you thought about how to do all that, and how you knew that they were not actually in love with you. Well, something I will say is, um, that I was very lucky that I had so many of these would-be fraudsters contact me at the same time, looking almost identical and with using almost identical messages. Hmm. Um, because if it had been just one, then chances are I would've just started talking to them, because that's kind of what we were doing during lockdown. We were chatting to people online that we didn't know. Um, and I am the sort of person that just talks to anybody, so had just one handsome soldier messaged me during lockdown, I could well have just been chatting, and then this would've been a whole different story. But because there were so many that came in at once, I was kind of lucky that I suddenly thought, "Hang on a minute. What is this?" And when I went into the profiles, um, you know, they, they were all very similar. In fact, I think two of them had literally the same profile picture. Um, they were all soldiers. They were all, um, UN peacekeeping soldiers, more specifically. Um, and they all started off with, "Hello, dear," "Hello, my queen." Um, you know, so it was all very, very similar language. So it was... Luckily for me, um, it was very clear that something was going on en masse. That's because I, you know, I have been hit on LinkedIn, I think back about it now, like five times, but they were so spread out. And the first one I thought, he came and said that, you know, gave me his sob story and said, "Here's my website. Look at it. I'm, I am who I really am telling you I am." And I looked through there and I saw, uh, him, a woman of similar age standing right by him, and then a younger woman and a younger man kind of by them as well. And I thought, you know, he's, he's just a cheater and a liar and a, you know... But scammer or fraudster never came to my mind. I just thought he was a jerk, so. Yeah, I think for me, um, the first thing that came to mind wasn't scammer. Um, it wasn't sort of something back then that I was particularly aware of. I just thought there's something not right, so I was just blocking them, deleting them. It was only when, you know, it kept carrying on that I started to look into what it could be, and that's when it sort of clicked that they were potentially, you know, romance fraudsters. But I'd obviously heard of romance fraud, but only in as much as you see when you flick through the paper or, you know, you kind of go online. Um, so it wasn't the first thing that came into my mind. I mean, why, you know, why would it be? Yeah. And when was this? How long ago? Well, it was, um, uh, August 2020, so it was, it was- Okay ... right during lockdown. Okay. Um, which of course, as Anna will know better than anybody, when, you know, cases of romance fraud- It went crazy started to rocket because of course we were all more isolated, more people were turning to social media to, uh, I don't know, to, to have- Entertain ... contact with the outside world. Yeah, to- Yeah. Yeah. Um, so there was a, a huge, huge soar in numbers of, of romance fraud cases. And, Annie, how long have you been doing, uh, your catfish? Um, I started after my experience, which is on the romance fraud spectrum. Uh-huh. But mine was an individual here, and it wasn't financial, but exactly the same manipulation as all other romance frauds, and that's what got me into this at the end of the day, was the recognition of that. So it was back in 2017 I set up Catch the Catfish to start with. Oh. Um, and then that ran for five years, and then I co-founded Lovesled with Cecilia November '22. Okay. Okay. Because that, yeah, and, and the difference between 2017 and now, what have you seen? Very different landscape. So I, I got into online dating just prior to that. Um, I'd come out of a relationship with my children's father, who was a bit of an idiot, and left it I think it was well over two years, nearly three years before I thought about dating again, 'cause I was a single mum with a, a little one, um, who had care of their kids, both of them, 100% of the time, and it was the only way I was gonna meet anyone, because I didn't have the money or the time to be going out on lots of dates or planning on meeting someone in Sainsbury's in the vegetarian aisle. I didn't think it was gonna happen. Running your trolley into people on purpose. On purpose, yeah. And, um, yeah, so I thought I'd give it a go. Um, started out on Guardian Soulmates of all things, and thought to myself, "I'll do a month on each to see what the difference is." Um, and found very quickly that it was literally the same faces on every single app. If you were putting in a particular age and distance from you, you, you were getting the same faces, so I learnt that really quickly. Um- Wow ... ended up on Zoosk, which was brand new at the time and attached to Facebook. Um, and I met some really amazing people on Zoosk, and I am still friends with lots of them, not in a romantic way, just got on with people. I am a bit of a lunatic. There was one guy I was chatting to, Joe, if he watches this, he'll go, "Ooh, Tigress, why are you saying that about me?" Um, he'd just come out of a relationship, and I was saying, "You're not ready for another relationship yet," and da, da, da, da, da. And he was, um, in such a state when we were chatting, and he wasn't that far from me, and I only knew... And I actually drove to his house to make sure he was okay, 'cause I am that kind of lunatic. Thankfully, he's all right. He's- He was okay. But that's just the kind of person that I am. Um, and then I met this guy, Mr. P, which is what I called him for months. Um, three months we chatted online, and he was very, very persistent, and I didn't, I wasn't particularly attracted to him at first, but he made me laugh my head off. And it got, after three months, I said, "Look, just give yourself a shake. If he's making you laugh that much, this is the one that you've seen that was your favorite out of my little bundle." Not a very big bundle at that. Um, and I just said, "Give yourself a shake. If he's making you laugh that much, just go and meet him." And so we did. I- And the first time I saw him, um, he turned around, I tapped him on the shoulder, and he turned around, and he had such a twinkle in his eye and a cheeky smile that that was it. And literally, we chatted for two and a half hours before we all did a meal, and then I got someone to come back in, my neighbor's daughter, to come and look after, um, the little ones, and then didn't get home until 2:00. We literally sat out talking the whole night. And that was it, two and a half years. And, um, he's the only ex that I still talk to, and it wasn't, it didn't end 'cause of anything horrible, it was just really unfortunate circumstances with family and distance and stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, so when that ended, I left it a year, and that was my issue, was that I had a little bit of a, a naive understanding that it was all gonna be good again. Because there weren't really any nasties on there at that point, or I hadn't come a- I'd come across the odd weirdo, you know what they're like in the DMs, or holding fish, and I just shrugged those off. But generally, everyone was really lovely. So when I went back, this would've been, it was 2015, um, and it had been 2012 I was on there before- I was like, "Oh, it'll all be great again." Um, but there wasn't anyone on Zoosk. And then someone said to me about, "Oh, why don't you try Tinder?" And I was like, you know, "Well, it's a hookup app, and I'm just really not into that kind of thing." They went, "No, no, it's changed." And there were friends that had had people that had got married from Tinder and stuff, and they said, "You just need to be really specific on your profile, what you want and stuff like that, and people tend to put what it is that they want on their profiles." So I did, and again, there was all those same faces. I recognized them from before, all still there. Um, and then got chatting to a guy called Anthony and Irish. Irish I'm still friends with. We, we never met, but we're still connected on Facebook. And Anthony, and yeah, there was ... I didn't like his picture, but the wording on the profile was what got me. It had humble, genuine, honest, loyal, looking for a long-term, serious relationship. But the bit at the bottom that really hit me was, it said, "Not into poor communication and mind games." And that was the bit that made me stop and go, "Oh, he's been hurt before, and he's not gonna do it to me," and that's what made me swipe. Next morning, he'd matched and sent a message, and that was the beginning of 14 months of, um, what is now known as the torment. And I listened to one of, um, a podcast that you were on, and in that 14 months, how often did you actually see him? Because he sounds like he was pretty busy. Oh, he was busy. Okay. So again, we chatted online for three months before we met in person. Mm-hmm. Um, we stayed on the app for three to four weeks. He was very slow and steady in that respect, but really lovely conversation. Then we swapped numbers, and we talked lots on the phone from then. Um, and then he suddenly vanished. After about, um, three months, he just vanished, and I was absolutely gutted. I now know that that was, that's a tactic that is used. Um, and I was like, "Oh, gee, what have I, what have I done? I, I just don't understand." And all that self-doubt hit me again from everything that had happened in the past. And then out of the blue, he just suddenly texted with kisses, and I was trying to put my big girl pants on at that point, and I just thought, "I'm gonna be a bit sarcastic," and I sent back, "Santa?" And he went, "Oh, I love, um, I love your sense of humor." And then the conversation started up again. Um, and then within a week We'd got an agreement to meet. So he came, um, to my house, and we were then together in person for six months, and I used to see him a couple of times a week, so he used to drive from London. Um, but it was like on a rota as I... You know, it was-- In that three months, he set all the expectations about what the relationship would be like. So he would always say that he valued quality of time over quantity of time and things like that, and I knew that the weekends were for his boys because he was a divorced father. He'd been divorced for 15 months, and because he worked away in London all week, that was the only time he got to see his boys, and he did used to fly abroad. So he'd set all these expectations about what it would be like, and, um, one week he used to-- or this is what he used to tell me. One week he used to work away a lot over in Germany or going over to France or Ireland because he worked in legal and aviation, and then the other week, there was only one day that he used to go away, and I used to see him more that week. So I'd see him like every other week, twice a week, and then perhaps once in the other week. But it was very much that I was on a rota, I now know, with five other women that point over the time that I was with him, when we finally all found out about each other, and that was, of course, not including his wife, who was up in Leeds. Did his wife ever find out? I told her. Oh, you told her? I did, when I discovered- So she did in the end know. I-- Yeah, okay. Okay. And it was, um, I think it was about four months later, I... We live in such a bizarrely small world. Um, I was talking to Mary Turner Thompson, who's absolutely fantastic as well. She's got a book called "The Psychopath and the Bigamist," and she's had a series here called The Other Mrs. T- uh, The Other- Mrs. Turner or Thompson, I can't remember. But she's absolutely amazing. Um, and we'd been on This Morning the day after each other and started chatting, and I messaged her just as the 10th victim had come through, and I went, "Number 10 today." She thought I was talking about our number 10, and I went, "No, no, no, victim number 10's come through." And she said, "You'll never guess what happened a couple of days ago." I'd just had an article in the paper about the SRA, 'cause he was a lawyer. And, um, she said, "One of my close friends asked me if I knew the woman that the article was about." And she went, "Yeah, I do actually. Her name's Anna." And she went, "No, no, no, not that one. The man's wife. Do you realize who it is?" And she went, "No." She went, "It's our friend's cousin." And how small a world is it that they had this mutual friend, and she was the cousin of the friend? So I found out through her that she was divorcing him at, at that point. It was about four months after. But I think when I first told her, he, um, he'd managed to brush me off as some bunny-boiling one-night stand or something like that. But of course, when my story went public, they also publicized that other victims had started coming forward straight away, so at that point it would've sort of blown that one out the water for him. And I hate to think what she was going through. And she, she appeared to be, um, an absolute, you know, an amazing entrepreneur. She's stunningly beautiful, from a very, very sort of respected, um, family. Father an academic at Leeds University. She'd been an academic. She was, you know, the founder of lots of businesses, and I, I actually think he was intimidated by her, and that this was his way of getting back at her Wow. Talk about insecurity and- Yeah, but then narcissists often are insecure, aren't they? And they do what they do to massage their egos, so. Do, do you know if he still is doing stuff like this? Well, he-- it stopped him in the form that he was doing it at that point. Um, but he-- I had had a couple of weird times, because in COVID, one of his victims was chatting with people back on Tinder, and I'm friends with some of the victims now, the ones that I got on with really well. And he actually matched with her or tried to match with her, um, not realizing it was her, because she had brown hair when he knew her and now she was quite-- it was, like, 10 years on, and she had blonde hair. And he-- but she sent it to me. She went, "Look who's tried to match with me," because he'd super liked her, so it came up. Um, and he kept trying. He kept deleting the profile and then super liking. Um, so that was really weird. But obviously as himself now, because he was divorced, he was living the life that he told us he was living prior. Um, and then he sent this woman to me, which was the most bizarre thing. This lovely lady, she'd been, um, she'd been on a couple of dates with him, but he wouldn't tell her his full name. And she said, "If you don't tell me what your full name is, I'm not gonna meet up with you again." And he said, "If I tell you my full name, you're gonna find out some stuff about me." Even though his name was never published, it does somehow, with the weird algorithms, bring him up So, um, and he went, "I was off the rails. I was off the rails for a few years," said the man who aggressively raped two of his victims. Um, yeah, so he said, "You need to go and speak to Anna Rowe," and she came and found me. What he thought I was gonna say in his favor to make her- So weird ... like- So weird ... do, I t- I... There is part of me that thinks because he knew how hooked I was in that relationship, because that's what they do. They, that kind of relationship gets you at, they get under your skin so badly. And I was still texting him after I'd found out who he was, 'cause that's what you do when you're in that kind of relationship. You hear victim, you hear victims protect their abusers, and I was still protecting him, but more so his family, because they've got a really unusual surname, and I did not want his family to be bombarded, 'cause there was a lot going on with the press. So I'd asked for his name not to be published, but part of it was me protecting him as well. Um, as time went on, obviously that all started to dissipate, and I really couldn't care what happened to him at this point. Um, but whether he still had in his head all those years later that I was still gonna be protecting him so he could get what he wanted- Do you know what I think sometimes, like if, like with real sort of narcissists, I think it's just they wanna be talked about. So whatever- Yeah ... if he sent her to you, that you would be talking about him, I'm not sure he would care what was being said, but he would know- Perhaps not with two women, you know, having a right old chat about him Having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes- It was quite hard for like a- ... with a real sort of narcissist like that, that's all they need, 'cause they just want the drama Yeah, possibly. Well, she blocked him at the end of it anyway. I said, "You know, it's your decision totally, but he is a pathological liar, a- and this was his behavior. It was a bit more than off the rails." So yeah, she did block him. She said, "No, I've been there before with one of those and I don't wanna go back." No. Yeah. So what do you think the personality difference is between somebody who's willing to do this in person and somebody who hides behind, uh, you know, a camera or, or a text? It's, I mean, the thing that we need to make straight here is you've got individuals that do this, and they have got those traits. So Cecilia's thing- Simon ... that defrauded them, Simon Leviev, um, Mel Grahams' one from, you know, Are We Dating the Same Fraudster, all of those in-person ones, they have got that personality, personality type. They're narcissists with psychopathic traits. Not diagnosis, but they have those traits. Right. Right, right. But more often than not, we do see in research a massive jump that fraud and crime does have people that commit them with those sort of personality traits. With the online ones, we know it's huge organized crime groups, but they have built the same behaviors into their scripts. So we can't say that the individuals that do it are narcissists or psychopaths. They might be. But in the scripts that they use, they bring those traits into it. That's how they create that intensity in the relationships, and that's why victims get hooked And I think it's worth sort of pointing out as well that with the, with these online organized crime ones, the individuals that are perpetrating the crimes, half the time they're not really, their own personality isn't in it anywhere. Right. That's- So in actual fact, their own personality is almost irrelevant because for them, this is a job. This is the way- Interesting ... that they make their money. Yeah. Um, so whether they are employed by a boss to do this or whether they are a lone wolf sitting at home doing it, their own personality is irrelevant. Um, it's, I think the, the, the sort of person that Anna unfortunately came across, um, there's a narcissistic, possibly psychopathic to, to be leading, it's not just a double life, is it? I mean, how many women- More than that. Yeah. So- There are 17 of us that I know of, but five over the time that I was with him. Yeah. So that's a, it's almost, it sounds weird to call it a skill set, but it's a different skill set to a romance fraudster doing it online where they're probably talking to more women- Yeah ... uh, but they're able to do it in a much more, um, removed way. Yeah. Particularly, you know, when this sort of first became more of a thing because it was more sort of messaging and stuff. Now there's a lot more people expect video calls and, you know- The voice notes and- The voice notes, yeah. But to start with, you could do this without ever even picking up the phone to somebody. What do you mean by that? Just tell, so- Oh, you mean, you mean just through text? Yeah. Yeah. So through social media messages or text or WhatsApp, um, you know, I've spoken to people who have sent money to, to somebody that they haven't had a phone conversation with, um, because there's always been the story they can't pick up the phone because they are out of service, um, they're in a situation where it would be dangerous for them to do so. Um, you know, uh, they're not allowed to talk on the phone or whatever it might be, whatever backstory they've come up with. Um, so they've become very good at Getting their victims to fall in love with somebody without having spoken to them. It's that- Yeah. It's- And it- Incredible. It's- You, you don't want to call it a talent, do you? 'Cause it, it gives them too much credit, but it's, it's incredibly clever. It is. And it is. It's a, it's a very specific behavior pattern that goes on. That is exactly. And it, it triggers hormones and chemicals in the body, and that's whether, you know, I've just had a victim where it was literally voice only. She didn't have pictures. And it just shows you that it is the pattern of behavior that is used. It's not actually about the pictures or the voice. Yeah. Because the words, whether they're spoken or whether they're written, the pattern of behavior that is used is what draws the victim in. Yeah. So- And, you know, people that I've sort of spoken to for the first book and beyond, a lot of it, and, you know, Anna knows this, again, better than anybody, is down to the fact that somebody might have said, um, "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm not feeling great because I lost my husband a year ago." And then, oh, what do you know, they lost their wife a year ago. Yeah. Or they'd lost a friend to cancer. Oh, my sister died of cancer. So they've, they're creating these little bonds, and you don't need to do that on the phone. You can do that very easily by message. Um, and it also means that you can do that 24/7. When you've got more than one fraudster working on one victim, they can be there at all hours of the day and night, and that's really, you know, if, if you are going through the most awful, vulnerable time and it's 2:00 in the morning and none of your friends are awake to speak to you, if you know that you can message this person who says, "I'm always here for you," and you get a message back within two seconds- And too important how does that make you feel? Exactly, and that's- It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, uh, let's lighten this for just a minute. So Becky, I go to you. Tell us about, uh, your story. Well, no, first of all, tell us your, your favorite scam that you reversed on, on one of your fraudsters. What, what's your favorite? Um, whenever I'm asked this, I always try and think of a different one, but I can't help it. It's the same one every time. It is when, um, a guy who was pretending to be Brad Pitt, um, I was talking to him and I sent him a picture of my friend covered in ketchup on my kitchen floor, and I said to him that this was a tumble dryer repairman, um, that hadn't had the right part for my tumble dryer and I'd killed him. Um, and what did he think I should do? And this, this Brad Pitt fraudster said to me, um, uh, something like, "That was very silly." Um, he said, "But I do have a contact in the military," and he, he said, "I'm going to put this man in touch with you." And then before I knew it, I had a message from this guy who was saying that he was General Mark Milley. Now, I looked him up at the time, and he was about as high as you can get- Oh, yeah ... in the US Army. Yeah. So it was him, and he was saying, um, "For 30,000 euros I will come and remove that body." Um, so then this other friend was like- But I was like, "Ha." Yeah. The funny thing is, weird one, 'cause I kept thinking, "Why have you switched to euros?" Like, that, it, it was such like a random thing, but, um, yeah, sort of beside the point. I think that was my favorite one just because it was so weird. Like, you... In my head, once you've got to the point where you're, you're sending someone a photo of a dead body, I would've thought that the scammer would've thought, "Well, I'm onto nothing here. I might just leave this one." But no, they're suddenly getting this other character involved. It was incredible. I was- It's on-the-feet thinking, wasn't it? Oh, actually I was just thinking, man, he just pivoted and thought, "Oh, I got some money." "I can make money out of that." He did. I mean, he's, he's wasted in what he does- 'cause that kind of, you know, he's on the ball, isn't he? He could get a, a cracking job in, you know, some awful corporate somewhere. But, um- Yeah ... yeah, it was... There, there's been a few of those where I've sort of said something really off the wall and then the person's come back and offered me an alternative contact or something. And there was one where I had, uh, five different Keanu Reeveses, um, that I was speaking to all at once, and I put them all into one chat group. Um, and I really enjoyed that one, watching them all leave the group. Um, uh, and so at the, the side of the point, um, Anola, I was gonna tell you this, um, I can't remember the last time that I had a new Keanu Reeves fraudster. No. There's a big one on Instagram at the moment. Go and tap them up. It's got 24,000 on it. I just saw The Guardians post it yesterday. Ooh. Go and tap them up. That's happening. I'll, yeah- Yeah ... I'll be on it. So- That'd be too good. Do you still get guys, um, out of the blue contacting you or has that kind of waned or what? Yeah, I do. Um, actually a lot fewer than I used to get interestingly. Um- Because they know you now? No. People have said that to me before, but in actual fact they don't read the bios. They don't read the bios. So, um, they would have absolutely no idea what I do. Um, it would just be that there'd been a search out generally for women of, I dunno, a certain age in a certain country, whatever it might be, and then they just bombard messages- Bombard messages ... until somebody bites. Bites. Yeah. Um, so no, I get them as well. They don't read the bios at all. Wow. Yeah. Um, yeah, which is- Mm-hmm ... bizarre, isn't it really? It is, but I mean, it's, it's been great for me because I've been able to have so many, uh, conversations with these people. I, I do still get them. So, um, there's one at the moment, um, saying that he's Lewis Capaldi, the, um, the singer. The singer. Yeah. Who will not leave me alone on Telegram, constantly ringing, um, so Telegram. But yeah, the, the, the ones that I've had have been less A-list celebrities, I would say. So at one point I couldn't move for Keanu Reeves'. Like, I- Yeah ... I was having to delete them from my inbox, I had so many. Yeah. And there were Brad Pitts, George Clooneys, Jason Statham, Liam Neeson. There were, you know, the whole sort of ones of people of my generation. Well, they know it's fake, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. But, but now it, it's sort of, it's- I would say maybe like tier two celebrities. So I don't really know why that is. I mean, I have been doing a lot less on Twitter of late, so when that happens, you know, things do slow down. Once I kinda have a bit more time and I pick up doing a few more things on Twitter, I've no doubt that the number of fraudsters will increase again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, uh- I miss doing that actually, 'cause I used to do it a bit before things got really busy, and it, it can be quite fun, can't it? Yeah. I used to do it to, um, if, if I had a victim that was really reluctant to understand what was going on, I'd say, "What profile are they on?" And then I'd go and get myself chatting with them so that they could see what was going on. And I used to do things like you as well. I told one of them that I'd just got out of prison 'cause I'd killed my ex-husband, but at least I got the money, and stuff like that. And they're like, "What?" But then they still chat with you. They, they don't care at all. Well, 'cause they're probably thinking, "Oh, so you got some money from that, did you?" That's why I told them that, yeah. I'd... Yeah. Do you ever ask them for money? I did, um, I, I used to quite lie. They would make out that I was another scammer and that I'd been playing along with them. So I'd use a little, chuck a bit of Yoruba into the chat after a while, um, when I'd seen where they were, if they'd, like, accepted a GrabAFile link or something like that, so that I could show the victim where they were location-wise. Um, and then, yeah, I'd say to them I'm a scammer and then send them a picture of one of them from the WhatsApp groups and stuff like that, and they'd be going, "Show me the way." And it's, it's really, really gross. And I had these voice notes from some of them. That was how I learned to say, um... They have a, a word that they use, um, when they're bombing and spamming so that they can check if someone's another spammer, and they say, it's A-L-A-Y-E. And I never knew how to pronounce it for quite a while, but it's actually alaye. Um, in Yoruba, they say alaye. Um, but it's a little test word that they use to check whether it's another scammer. I used it only the other day. Oh, did you? I did, and he replied with, um, "Drop me your WhatsApp, bro." Yeah. Or, "How far? How far?" And I get them, especially on bloody TikTok, that's the worst one. My DMs are full of scammers because they think my Catch the Catfish account, because I post educational stuff about, like, the deep fake video calls and the voice cloning, they think I'm selling the tools. So they come in my DMs, "Boss, how much? What tool is it? Help," uh, you know, "Help me out. How far?" 'Cause that, the- they're asking whereabouts you are in West Africa when they say that and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. Say, "Calm down, jewel. You're not getting anything." Or, "I'll send that to the EFCC." Yeah. A couple of scammers that I interviewed for that first, that Keanu Reeves book- Mm um, have been on at me. I've had to block one of them, um, to send them a copy. What, without a review? They gave you their address? No, no. Well, they would've done. They just said, "Are you gonna send me a copy of this book or what?" Oh. I've just said, "Or what?" Or what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, funnily enough, I'm not, actually. Yeah, I think, "How about, how about promotional copy?" They're just brazen, aren't they? They are- Yeah ... absolutely brazen. That's just in- The Nigerians more than the Ghanaians. The Nigerians are the ones that really put themselves ... They don't mind showing their faces. They're, they're the height of arrogance because they know that they're not gonna get touched, basically. So they're, but the Nigerians very much more with the follow-up scams. So when a victim's at their most vulnerable, when, like, when the game's up, they will very often come back with their own faces and say, you know, something like, "I've not really done this before and I've only done it a couple of times, but I fell in love with you while I was scamming you, and I feel really terrible about it. Is there any chance that we can stay friends or start again being honest with each other?" And the victim is so vulnerable at that point, and there's this huge void because of the, you know, the relationship ending. Yeah. Um, that sometimes they ... And they're made to feel, "If I s- if I stay friends with them, perhaps I can stop them doing it to someone else." And that's how they get them back in with this follow-up scam. But then they just start, they're, they're doing exactly the same thing with their own faces. "Oh, my s- my, one of my siblings is really poorly. We've got to take them into hospital." "My mum's, you know, my mum's died. I've gotta feed the family." Or, "I'd really love to come and g- um, meet you. Can you get me a visa for your country?" That's very common. So- Or they play on the fact that, um, you don't want them to do it anymore as well. So there was- Yeah ... one victim, she went through all of this, and then he said to her, as Anna said, um, "Oh, you know, I've actually fallen in love with you during this process, you know, I can't believe it," et cetera. And then suddenly he wants to, under his own name, start a business so that he doesn't have to do that anymore because now he's found the love of his life. Um, all, all he, all his, um, victim needed to do was to send him some cryptocurrency to start a new business. Um, and the thing is, he They're so desperate for them not to go back and do it again, aren't they? The victims are so desperate to stop- Yeah ... that happening. But you can also, you can see how when you're not ready to let go- Yeah ... you can see why somebody would think, "Oh, actually, yeah, maybe, you know, it- it's easier to, to carry on with this- Yeah ... and to not trick myself into believing it, but to, um, allow myself- Yeah to believe that it's all gonna be okay and that it is real," because then you don't have to face up to it as quick. Um, because it's the facing up which I think is the hardest thing. Ultimately, you know you're gonna be in more pain. Yeah. So it's like self-protection in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. A- and that a- that's actually happened to me with my scammer. He, he kind of, he ran out of reasons to, um, lie to me, and so he, he called me when... Or he said he was gonna call me, he's been trying to tell me something. And so we get on the phone and I see this face of a young Black African and, and it was, "But during this time I've fallen in love with you and, and I'm gonna build us a house over here in Africa." I just kinda went, "Oh, I don't think so." You know? Yeah. But, but I, one reason that I stayed for a little bit longer was because, uh, I, he swore up and down, up and down, forever and ever that this crypto, uh, account was real, and I thought, "If it is real, I need him to help me get the money out." Well, as it turned out, it wasn't real. But then, you know, during this time he started sending me all these TikTok videos about older white women going to meet these young Black men in Africa. There's massive profiles on TikTok for that, isn't there? It- Is that- Unreal ... real or is that just something they made up just to make it seem normal? I think the one that was so bizarre There are, there are some big profiles where this has happened, um, and they've got a lot of following, and then they've made it into almost this dating thing because they've seen a few profiles where it is influence, where influencers, where, you know, this has happened and those relationships have been created, and they make a lot of money off of it. They are then using that, "Oh look, we'll set up this as dating," and it's set up in that way. It is unbelievably dangerous. And- It really is ... that's creepy. I mean, it's like, are they that desperate? Both sides, you know, older women, younger African men. I've been told by people that I've... 'Cause I've, I've met some amazing Nigerian people that absolutely hate what is going on over there, and they've, they do awareness raising as well about all that kind of thing because they've had sisters. They don't care who they scam at the end of the day. In the groups, they, you know, if there's the possibility of scamming someone in their own country, they will. Some of them come back and go, "You shouldn't be doing that to anyone here," and they go, "If they're stupid enough, then I will." And, you know, and they've had obviously mums and sisters that have been targeted, and so they wanna get out there and raise awareness as well. But, um, I have been told that it, it is like a status symbol out there, so if somebody has a white girlfriend or partner, um, it's considered like a status symbol, whatever their age is, which is utterly ... I've a, um, a friend from Ghana, um, who, where obviously there's, you know, equal amounts of, of romance fraud. Yeah. But she was saying how, um, if you are a young Ghanaian man in certain circle and you have an older white woman, you would go out and parade around with her to sort of say, "Look what I've landed." Yeah. Um, and I think it's, I, I don't think it's Ghana, I think it's Nigeria where they, they term it hunting for an old white. Yeah. Um, which is, I mean, charming. Um, uh, but because it basically says, "Look what I've managed to get. I've got a walking, talking bank account." Yeah. How is that status? I mean, over here in the States, I mean, I'm invisible. Nobody even sees me because I'm old. So In the groups they refer to us as white heads. Australians are known as Aussie heads. You know that they call victims clients. Yeah. And- It's- I- it's insane. It, it's- Yeah ... completely insane. It's a whole... I, I don't think it... It's one of those things where the three of us, we could sit here till the end of time and we would never un- we'd never be able to get into that mindset. Fathom that mindset. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. It, it's, it's unbelievable. And you could, you could have conversations with, with people who have been doing it for, for decades, for their whole life, and you still wouldn't be able to put yourself in their shoes because it was so... We're completely different worlds. Completely- Yeah ... different worlds. And the way we view the world, it's, you know, it's, it's just very, very different. Even, and this, this for me was very, very interesting. So even, even with the guys that I was talking to that raise awareness, they said they, they absolutely stood by the fact that stealing people's money was wrong and really bad, and they absolutely condone it. What they couldn't understand was the hurt. They couldn't understand what the big deal was about that side of it. Um, and I f- I thought that was quite interesting, and I think it, it... I mean, it could well be just a cultural thing. They don't, they don't think about it in the same way perhaps. Um, I know... It, it's very different, isn't it? It's like I've, I've got friends over in India and, of course, they still have arranged marriages over in India, so they're not making those normal, um, connections for relationships that then build into something more. So relationships are viewed very much as transactional still- In Africa ... in certain cultures rather than in our cult- you know, in our... Well, we- there are still some women, I think. I mean, I, I can't bear it when you've got women that are just only after guys chasing money. It's just not my- Right ... thing. If that's, you know, that's a condition of a relationship where you've got a man that's on a certain income, you know, blah, blah, blah, it's just not, it's not my thing. Um, but I think more here we tend to be with someone because we like them, isn't it? It's more that side of it first than anything else. One would hope so. You'd hope. But I think it is different culturally in different countries, and that might be part of it Now, um, Anna, h- are you in a relationship currently or no? Nope. Me neither. Nope. Haven't had, um, haven't had one 10 years. Do you want one? Um- If I... Well, I mean- I am. I'll always- Well, at least for- I'll always be a romantic. I love to love people because, you know, I, I like, I like caring for people. I like spoiling people. I've always been that kind of person. Um, but I've also come to really love my peace, and I've lived on my own now for so many years, just with my kids, and up until last year, my dog. And it's just really peaceful. And because I am, I am someone that feels emotions really, really deeply, I've actually discovered what peace feels like outside of normal stresses and strains of life. And I think it would have to be someone incredibly special for me to risk ruining peace. Yeah. Yeah. But I would never say no My mantra for finding a man was, "Well, I'm not gonna go looking, but if one happens to fall in my lap and- Yeah you know, it, it can, uh, you know, is an asset in my life rather than somebody I have to take care of. Yeah. If they fit in with my family, then yeah, I'd go for it. And unfortunately, the guy that, that scammed me, I thought was that person. Yeah. So now it's just kind of like, well, I, I think I'm done, you know? I, I'm done. I'm not even gonna attempt to entertain. Not like men are beating my door down anyway, but, you know, I, I'm just, I, I'm content being with myself. I've got my grown sons and they help me out a lot and I just thought, well, that's gonna help me. That's gonna be who helps me wipe my butt when I'm old, when I can't do it myself. I think there is a big thing with, um, dating fatigue, as it were, um, at the moment, where it's so low effort and that is why scammers and abusive toxic people like mine, that's how they manage to win people over so easily a lot as well, is because everyone is so low effort now, and they will put the bloody effort in, and that's why they feel so different, I think, and why it works. And I tell you in a different fraud context, and this really struck me over the last few weeks, is 'cause I've had to do a lot of dealing with bloody companies, like O2 for example, getting my num- that number changed and stuff. So if you just take a couple of simple things, like I need to do a chargeback with Lloyds Bank, and I needed to speak to a human being at O2 because there were problems. Could I speak to anyone? No, I can't. The AI chatbot, absolutely pointless. Hours and hours of waiting for, you know, a chatbot to reply, or being told to do this, that, and the other, and going round in circles. And then you get someone who's scamming using a business, and they are literally walk- they're a human on the phone walking people through exactly what they need to do. And it's like you've got The legitimate ones feel like a scam because you can never speak to a human, and they're completely bloody pointless and useless. And you've got the scammers setting up mock businesses where they are so attentive and always available and walking people through that feel like a good quality bloody business. So again, makes people so much more susceptible to fraud because you've got rubbish and really good customer service, but it's the scammers that are giving you the really good customer service And then there's the awful thing now where everyone is, like, because we're hearing so much more about romance fraud and stuff, people are, are frightened to, uh, to date as well, because I've, you know- Yeah I've, I've heard people say, "Oh, well, I'm not going online dating, it's just full of fraudsters." Um, so now we've got this thing where there are actually people who would like to find somebody, who are legitimately on online dating sites, and are being told, "Well, no, clearly you're a fraudster." Well, no. And they're- I just... I always think, you know, if you are a, a handsome US, UN peacekeeping soldier on Tinder, you've absolutely no hope at all. Like, no one will be swiping on you at all. But I did that the other day. There's an actor from London, he's not a massive... But I was on Hinge doing my little spy, like you do. I- every now and again I'll go on them, not to find someone, because I'm seeing how they're doing with getting rid of the fakes. Mm. And it has, I have to say, there is a big change actually with, with them. There are, there is stuff going on behind the scenes that's getting things better. Um, I came across these pictures, this really nice-looking guy, and I was like, "Ooh, your photos look a bit too polished. Let me just screen grab those and go and see who you are." And I did, and it turned out to be this actor called Joseph someone, and I found him on Instagram and I was like, "Are your pictures being used on Hinge?" And he went, "No, that's me." Ish. Oh. I dunno, 'cause this is... So there's, like, there's people who are actually missing out on the chance of meeting somebody- Yeah ... because people think- Yeah ... you, well, no, you're too handsome or- No ... your job sounds familiar. Yeah. I mean, nope, I'm gonna leave that one. Yeah. Yeah. I did go on a, a dating website once a long time ago, and the only people that I saw there were men with the unkept long beards and beer belly type thing, and then one guy was a pilot and, and had his, you know, pilot shirt on. Ooh, pilot. And I didn't think- Red flag ... you know- No cheat. No cheat. So I, I... Now I know, because I thought, "Okay, no, no, no, no. Hmm. And then no, no, no." He, he, he was the only one that looked different, and- Yeah ... that's kind of like, I mean, I was just looking. I wasn't, I wasn't- Anna and I were both like, "Oh, no, pilot. No, no." But he could've been a really nice guy, a pilot, looking for a date. You know? But for me, that's like, just pass. Yeah. Report. I've never been on the dating sites 'cause I just don't, I don't trust them, you know? So- Um, I met my other half on a dating site. Yes. Tell us about that Um, I was on there looking at It was on Tinder. I met him on Tinder. Um, and I was looking at fraudsters for the book, um, and just sort of happened to, to come across him, and he was local, and I quite liked the look of him. And then we were texting, and I said to him, "Shall we have a video call, um, before we meet up?" And he said, "Oh, um, no, I can't do that. I, I, I can't use the camera on my phone. I don't know what I'm doing." And I thought, "Oh, got you." So I was like, "Right, okay, so you're obviously a scammer." But we arranged to meet up, and then part of me didn't either didn't think he was gonna turn up or thought that it was gonna be somebody completely different w- that would turn up. But I thought, "Well, I'm gonna do it," because I was midway through writing the book, and I thought, "Well, that would be a great- Mm ... anecdote for the book." But it turns out that he just can't use his phone, and it was actually just completely genuine that he couldn't do a video call. Um, in fact, even now, four years later, trying to get him to do a video call where the camera's not just in this bit here or, or just that bit So, you know, p- online dating, it should be a happy, fun, you know, great experience, and obviously we know that there's lots of weirdos out there, and we have to take sort of all the precautions that, that go with that. But it should be a happy, fun, exciting experience, but it's just, it's been marred by- Yeah ... all the nasties out there. But what I will say is that actually for the first time in quite some time, maybe ever, um, actually the, the number of people being contacted, the number of fraudsters contacting people, um, has, it is now more through social media than it is through dating sites. So there are more people being contacted on X, TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, rather than Match, Tinder. About 60/40 now the split, isn't it, with social media? So- Yeah ... yeah, so I think they're, fraudsters are sort of realizing that actually dating platforms, they are upping their game. They are putting more, more things in place. Trust in place. And the, the big social media companies, you know, X and Meta, couldn't care less. So actually they're much safer targeting people that way because no one's, no one's gonna bother them. So those are the, the big ones that you gotta watch out for, Facebook and, and- Yeah, definitely. I mean, they will be in any platform that's got either a comment section or a chat facility, literally anywhere. But obviously social media platforms are the biggest, so that's where the biggest amount of victims will be targeted. And you know what- They're on Words With Friends, the fitness apps, anything ... Words With Friends that shocked me. I just thought, "You gotta be kidding me." So- My God, there's loads. I had one particular victim that used to go through and haunt. We, we made a whole post about it. She did, like, a week, and I think she had, like, 200 profiles in a week that she'd collected from Words With Friends. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's crazy. We need to rename that Words With Strangers or- Oh, I did Words With Scammers. Yeah, that's what the post was, Words With Scammers. Words With Scammers, yeah. Yeah. Holy crap. That... Well, I have kept you guys, um, long enough. I, I could spend all day with each of you, and, and I have just loved listening to all of this. I've got all these questions that we haven't even gotten to, but this would go rather long. So I will let you go about your day. And, but thank you so much for doing this for me, and- Very welcome. Good for you for doing it as well. Yeah. Even though you've just kinda stomped all over everything. But good for you doing it. Well, you know, it, it's either that or sit in a corner and lick my wounds, you know? One of those- We have the support two. But- It, it is You have to be kind to yourself 'cause it's a long journey out of it, but also you do what you need to do to heal. And for a lot of people, this is something that can really help that healing process. So all power to you. And I have learned a ton from this, and I'm meeting wonderful people like yourselves Ways of still aligning- Yeah to horrible things. Thank you ladies both. I really, really appreciate it. You're very welcome. And have a good evening. And to you. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.