Inside The Scam Factories

What if the person sending you those messages wasn't a willing criminal at all?

For years, we've been told to picture online scammers as heartless fraudsters sitting behind computer screens, stealing life savings without remorse. But the truth is often far more complicated.

In this gripping episode of The Romance Scam Rebellion, S. Clariba shares his extraordinary story of being trafficked from Africa to Southeast Asia and forced to work inside a scam compound. Trapped by organized crime, he was given an impossible choice: scam innocent people or face brutal consequences himself.

His story exposes the hidden human trafficking network behind the global scam industry and challenges everything we think we know about who the real victims are.

This conversation is not about excusing fraud. It's about exposing the criminal organizations that exploit vulnerable people on both sides of the screen—those who lose everything to the scams and those who are coerced into carrying them out.

Listener discretion is advised. This episode contains discussions of human trafficking, coercion, violence, and psychological trauma.

This is not an isolated story. It is part of a rapidly growing pattern of human trafficking that fuels one of the largest criminal enterprises in the world. 

If you are able, please consider supporting the work of Action Against Trafficking, please email me at romancescamrebellion@gmail.com and I'll provide the link where you can contribute.

If this episode resonates with you, please like and suscribe so you don't miss any episodes.

Transcript

 Welcome back. This is the second installment of a different type of victim, one maybe that you never knew existed. In my mind, there are at least four types of victims I'm trying to bring to the forefront in this season, and in no particular order, there are victims like myself who got defrauded from their entire life savings. Then there's the victims whose images have been used to scam targets, then the victims who were trafficked to commit these crimes, and lastly, the families of all of those victims who live in as much pain as their loved ones. No one except those at the very top of the chain gain anything from this fraud. We need to go after those perpetrating these crimes. This episode contains discussion of human trafficking, coercion, violence, and psychological trauma Listener discretion again is advised. A soft-spoken young man from Uganda, fresh out of university and searching for a job opportunity. His cousin introduces him to an agent recruiting for jobs abroad, a chance to work, earn money, and build a future. He's never traveled before, but like so many young people hoping for a better life, he takes the chance and prepares to go. What he does not know is that the promises waiting for him are built on deception. This is a story of manipulation, coercion, captivity, torture, and survival. Clariba was not recruited for a job. He was trafficked, not recruited, not employed, enslaved, forced to labor within a hidden criminal world he never even knew existed. His story is difficult to hear and heartbreaking to imagine, but stories like his are happening every day across parts of the world where criminal networks prey on hope and desperation. This conversation may be challenging, but I hope you will stay with us because behind the headlines and statistics are real people with real families, dreams, and lives that are forever changed. Today, rather than remaining silent about what happened to him, Clariba is working through Action Against Trafficking to raise awareness of trafficking recruitment patterns, support prevention efforts, and advocate for people who remain trapped in these systems. His story is not only about survival, it's also about turning lived experience into action for others who may still be at risk. Because of the distance between us and the conditions under which this interview was recorded, you may notice occasional audio challenges. If you have difficulty understanding portions of Clariba's accent, this episode is also available on YouTube with captions. Thank you for listening, and if this touches your heart like it did mine, and you have the ability, please consider supporting the work of Action Against Trafficking. Information on how to support their efforts can be found in the show notes. Here's the next heartbreaking conversation. All right, well, let's first start, and I really appreciate you coming on this podcast. I mean, it's, I think it's good for people to hear the other side of this, of the victimization. Let's start with your name. Your name is rather long to us in the U.S. Yeah, it's true. Say it, say it slowly. Okay. My name is Semwogerere Semwogerere Clariba. Okay. Clariba. Clariba. I got that. Semwogerere. Ge- One more time. Semwogerere Samo Ga- Lin- Li. Oh, boy Is that right? Is, is sort of. Got it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, again, thank you. What I would like to do progression-wise here today is hear your story. You were trafficked. You went to Cambodia? No. Where did you- I went to Thailand. To where? Thailand. Thailand. Thailand, okay. Yeah. Tell us how long ago this was, um, what it was like once you got on the ground, your, just your whole experience, whatever you feel comfortable in sharing. And how long have you been home now? I've been home for two years Two years. Okay. So you're getting over the trauma part of it, right? Sort of? Yeah. 'Cause I was scammed too. Well, it's been a couple of years now, and, and I'm to the point where I can discuss it without, you know, being re-traumatized. But, but yeah, that's dumb to say. We'll always be traumatized. But, um, anyway, if you wouldn't mind starting there, I would appreciate it. Oh, no. As I said, my name is Semogga Kiba. I repeat it again. So I'm a victim of human trafficking, and that's one of the core values of starting up my anti action against trafficking organization because of what I passed through and how it started again. So I passed through a lot. I spent a year entrapped there, where entrapped, not me alone. I was trapped with other fellows. Fellow Ugand- We, we were like, um, 50. We managed to get out of the compound around... We came back 23. We managed to come out of the compound, 23 of us. We left others still trapped, and we, we continued talking to them, communicating, mostly us, because we are the leaders. I was part and my other fellow we are still, we were part. We, we used to communicate to the outside world to, to inform, for help, for like what's happening. Yeah. So that's how we managed to get out. And we are 50, as I said, but 23 remained. Many, uh, 23 get out, got out. We are the 20 got out, and the other 27 remained trapped. Hmm. Yeah. So that lived experience pushed me with my fellows because we started our organization, three of us, among the 23, to try and sensitize Ugandans because how recruitment is not the same way. The, like it's, it's not structured like a system. Um, like for instance, like a registered company that is taking, it's not. The recruitment process is a- It-- among the local people, the community people. So it is really difficult to monitor both government and security agencies to monitor it because a neighbor, a brother, a sister, an uncle can recruit you to, onto such compound, onto trafficking. So we decided to create an initiative, the organization for such goals, for awareness, for education purposes, for help, like re-reintegration, helping those survivors, because we, we still receive calls, some in Cambodia, some in Laos, some in Myanmar, some in Malaysia. So there is a triangle there. We receive like calls, people come through when they see our website, our posts. Ugandans come through and some other nations, uh, countries like people from Kenya. So it is a wide syndicate you get that is not-- It's overlooked upon mostly in Uganda. Here in Uganda, which we mostly think of the Middle East as a, a hotspot, but the Far East Asia is being like overlooked. That's why we came up and we stood up. As soon as we arrived back in Uganda in twenty twenty four, came up and started it, and we are pushing. So I passed through a lot, as you asked for my personal experience. I, I was recruited, like I was trafficked by a person that you couldn't expect to. She was a friend to my cousin whom brought up a job opportunity, and by then I, I had just finished university. You get, I, I had just finished, then I was looking for a job. Here came that opportunity from that lady to my cousin, and then the cousin informed me about it. And there are a lot of things that these people consider before recruiting a person into their compounds. There, there are a lot of requirements they do follow. Um, did you-- Were your targets Americans? Those people target Americans mostly- Okay ... and yes, then get small Britons So they were looking for English speakers when you were- Yeah, right ... trafficked? English speakers and- And writers ... who have the ability, who have the ability to use a computer. Okay. Not an illiterate. Yeah, who have that ability. They look for that. English speaker, ability to use computer, ability to type, such abilities. So the lady that approached your cousin, your cousin wasn't aware of the trafficking part? My cousin wasn't aware, but for the lady was aware. Because my cousin used to work from the Middle East where she met, he met that friend of his. So when he came back to Uganda, also this agent came back to Uganda, like they came in almost the same interval. And when they came back here after some time, they maybe they met in town, because he told me, "I have met my friend and he has told me of, I was with her in Dubai gate. So he has told me there is a job opportunity and you've finished campus, you can look to it and it's safe. You can do it." So that's when I met that woman. But my cousin didn't know. But for the woman, the agent knew about everything, uh, about the structure, yes. Had she been trafficked before? Did, I mean- No ... was she a victim of that or she was just a recruiter? She was a recruiter, but a recruiter who knows the bosses and what they do and where they are. Yeah. So she just basically is looking to be paid to put- Yeah, right ... somebody in slavery. Yeah. By the way, what I got to know when we reached there, each head was about $5,000. Did you have to pay your own way to Thailand? Yeah. And they said you would be reimbursed and you probably weren't, right? Like when- Or did they reimburse you? It was like, uh, this agent first gives terms of, terms and conditions for you to be connected to what she calls a job. And those terms and conditions include actually. Include fees, agent fees for her Mm-hmm ... when you have, she gives you the amount that I want, such an amount for you to be connected. You get? And everything in that process seems and looks to be legitimate. For instance, me, I had never traveled, but if you, if what is brought onto the table looks legitimate than what we expect, yeah, they bring the hotel bookings, and she explains that these hotel bookings are where you're going to stay. They bring the air tickets, everything is organized, you get? And visas, they, they give you the visa in your passport, yeah, like you get. So you, you don't get any doubt. This person tells you when you reach that side, you can either say, "I don't like the job," and you return, because you have an hotel booking for seven days, and you have a, an air ticket. The both going and the return ticket, you have both. So it becomes really difficult to notice that there is- Oh, yeah ... something fishy. Yeah. So. It's designed that way so that you're- Yeah ... not suspecting. Yeah, yeah. Properly, yeah. Right. And it is designed in a very fast way. Like, it's very fast. If you start with the process like the agent agrees upon, "Okay, you've given me my money." Okay. It will take not more than five days for you to be off Uganda, off, off any country to that side. But when you reach that stage, it's another story. So tell me what happened once you got to Thailand. What, what did they... How, from the airport to the compound, how did that work? It is really traumatizing. Yeah If you don't wanna talk about that, then that's fine. But- It- But we can just say that you went from the airport, you were escorted somehow into the compound. No. Of like ... No? It was like we, I, we traveled five of us, like a group of five, and it was really scary because when this person, the agent told us one instruction, "Wherever you reach, take a picture and I'll see to where, like where you've reached." We used to take pictures in each destinations to from by that picture to in airport Savannaboom, a picture. So we took a picture, the last one, we're using the airport internet, and we sent it to her and she said, "Wait. You wait on gate, such and such a gate, and I will give you more instructions to what, to what to do." So we waited for around 30 minutes. Then there came a black SUV. Yeah. So that black SUV had a man, so we didn't know that that's what has come for us. Then that man came out, due to language barrier, he used the translation on phone- Uh-huh, mm-hmm ... with our picture that we had taken and he show to, "Is this you?" And we say, "That's us." Then we send this one a WhatsApp message again. There's a person who has come. Yes, I said, "Yeah, this person is that person and this is the kind you get." So then that was a long story. We got into the car. We were new to the country, no, no language. Yeah, it was a long story. We reached somewhere, they separated us and some went to hotels and some went into the other car as we came, but we are separate. Then a long journey started. Yeah, a long journey. How many hours did it take to get to the compound? Um, we reached at around 4:00. And they removed that time and compound reached the other following day. We crossed borders. One, we crossed borders. So we, we passed through military part too. So we passed through Thailand into another country near to their compounds. Then again, we are transferred to another place. So it was threatening. We didn't know, we didn't think it's real. This person had a gun. He out, he locked in the car. You don't know where you're going. So that was a long journey and so complicated. Yeah. I, I can't even imagine what that was like for you. Once you got to the compound, um, how did they train you? You got some training, I assume. What was that structure like? It was, it was a forceful, it was forceful and no choice and because whole thing was done in military, like through military way because we are civilians. We don't know. Now you're surrounded by the military and everything is done by if you, you have to learn in such and such a given time, not like they give you a script, but it's structured that we want you to do this, this and this and this and this. Immediately you start, you will sign contract. You don't know the mean, the language you sign. So the way their training was not sitting on a, on a blackboard and starting, "Ah, this and this." No. Translator, they give you what they want to know with immediate effect. You have to learn while doing what you're doing. And if not, torture means are there, military. So we found a lot of nations there. As soon as we reached people, we found there fellow Ugandans and other, they said, "Now you're dead." Now you forget about home because, you know, we reached the, we reached inside, but where we passed through mountains and military with guns everywhere. And once we reached where whom we found there said, "Forget about home." What? Forget about home. We thought it's a joke. But as soon as reached, then we were moved into a big building full of computers and we were sat. Translator came, came with what they want. He talked in their language, they translated into ours, into English, then said start. But how long did you have to work every day? We used to work around 13 hours in- And- ... thirteen. Oh. For, yeah, 13 hours- 13 ... on a computer. Yeah. On a computer, and that's 13 But there are other hours extra because on average you were given three hours, three hours to four of rest. Then when those four hours, getting four hours is because you've hit your target or you've done something impressive. But if not, 13 plus extras to reach to where they want or to, to-- those are-- that, that, that's extra you have to cover, you get. So it was Yeah, right And can you tell us what happened if you don't meet the quotas? These people at a prison, uh- Let me ask, let me ask you one thing. Were your captors, were they Thai or were they Chinese or what? Who were these people? They were Chinese, if I may to specify, but these people are confusing, those Asians. They seem to be like... But mostly if you can identify, you can say Chinese if you are to identify. Okay. Yeah. So if you don't meet their targets, there are a lot of tortures, but they are the prison in general, and this prison, do you know a burglar fence? Uh, s- s- re- what was that? Okay Barbed wire fence. No, you know fence with, uh, iron net. You know i- iron, a metal. Iron? Metal net. Me- metal. Metal? Uh-huh. Yeah, like, uh, like a fence like that. Uh, it's like structure like it with metal, but it's a fence. Yeah. Okay. So that's where the maximum prison is. Like, that's the maximum prison. You'll be tied, like handcuffed, standing, um, inside because it's not sheltered. Uh, like it's a fence, a long one outside. Then you'll be handcuffed, like with a gate, standing straight. Then on the other, the, on the other side, there is military. Like it's the ones supervising a gate, and they just no one word, don't sleep. You should stand there for no less than three days there standing, and you don't eat They give you rice and this So you're outside? Yeah. So you're in the heat? Yeah. 'Cause Thailand's hot. So day and night, day and night, and don't, don't sleep because they, they have military. They change intervals, like some come day, some come night, those come. So all supervise you with one word, don't sleep Okay. So you don't sleep that, don't sleep. You be there standing, and you, you get some strokes like canes. You know strokes, canes? Yeah, canes. Oh, yeah. For that, for those that supervise during day, they give you some strokes in the morning, and the others that come at night, they give you some whips at, in the evening when they, they arrive for their... You get? So they change pos- Just like if you're standing facing them for the, for the strokes, you look the other s- they, they change, and you look the other side, all of you in that line, that sequence, and you are whipped for the day, morning and then evening. Then you, after whipping, then you, you return and again face them. If you try to, to doze, there is electricity that will wake you up So i- in such conditions, and apart from the prison, w- women used to go into periods and if you are in, when you're in that side, because they used to call it the dark room, they used to go into periods. They don't know a woman and a man, same treatment 'cause they are men. They don't know woman and man. So till later. Then apart from the prison, also in the other building, there are a lot of torture acts you get. So it's a lot and whatever you, you know that is extreme, they do it and it's normal as long as you do what they expect out of such gate. Some people died. Not one. A lot of Ethiopians died. Do-- What happens when they, when they die? Are they sent home or do their families just never hear from them again? There is a river where they deposit it. In the river- But I mean, do their, do their families know what happened? Where? Which family? Do they know your family? No. Always no. They deposit your body into the river till And we used to be in such condition. You, your neighbor is not, you know that person. You know the other is not. And so sometimes, and they also sell you that slavery. After from that couple, they sell you to another. We, we were sold to different places So did you scam men or women? It was mostly men. Mostly men? So you posed as a woman? Yeah. Did they have women there to, like models that would Talk to- Yeah ... uh, if there were any video calls? Yeah, the, yeah. It would have the woman, the woman that is in the picture, that's the woman that would be on video call that night, yeah. Tell me how you got away Then when you that side, you're not allowed with, to be with phones. Phones were confiscated from day one, but God was with us because we passed through a lot of checkpoints and we realized that where are we going? And first, first thing it was passports away. The passports were taken forcefully because they said, "Your passports, translate your passports." We wondered why should we give you your passport, our passports? And then they checked our suitcases, our belongings, they took them back. And we, we know something is going to be tough where we are. So phones were confiscated, but we managed to smuggle two phones 'cause one, one of us came with two phones. Mm-hmm. He had two, two phones. One was taken and one of us also claimed not to have a phone, but others were taken. First we were five, others were taken. So they checked and checked, "Where is your phone? You have, you have." They checked me. They didn't find it. Oh, thank God, because it was under the suitcase and they checked on top and they didn't see. So those phones that we smuggled, that, that was one of our path of getting out. 'Cause when we reached there, things got tight, tight, tight, tight, tight. Keep on losing people. You keep on getting beat, you keep on getting electricuted. You, you get, keep on getting beat and women are also the same. Now we say now we have to look for a way out So we used their internet, which we are used to connect to our phones that we had and try to seek. And one of the thing, that's why when we came back, we, we started this organization, Reaching Out Home, is one of the most frustrating thing to, to get help. So we tried to reach out to different executives, like different officials. They all mostly neglected that, like, "We don't know they are, we don't know they are what. What okay they'll get," so. And some responded. Others they didn't want. So they made efforts, made a lot of efforts as we kept on pushing from this side 'cause these people to- reached an extent and they knew that we have phones, so they tried to ... Because it reached an extent our names were published on Twitter newspapers. If you can check Ugandan newspapers. We are published that because it was a big thing and Uganda had not yet got an experience that there are cases in the Far East Asia. So it was a big thing. It was published, and these people saw it online that, "Hey, we have such Ugandans that were here. They are facing Because we took pictures that these are the people we have in, in here. So they checked and they tried to trace us for their phones, but they failed. Yeah, and God helped us that the phones were so, so, so, so kept under a lot of suppression. Because even the fellows who are used to spy on us, who has the phone, would tell us, "You give this," having to get, but we didn't manage to. And our way out, we had a list of names we had made because that those are ... those compounds are big. We made a list of names, but they managed to let only 23 of us out, out of the 50 that remained. How many that- 23 of us were let out. Three? Yeah, out of the 50, after a lot of negotiations with the government. Yeah. Wow. But it was a whole, it was a special day after a year of struggle So how did you pay for a plane to take you home? Who paid for a plane ticket? Um, IOM helped us. IOM. IOM? Yeah, helped us to come back home. Yeah, but that's why we created this, our organization, because we are there, we had no one talk to, and we are pushing something that here in Uganda most people are ignorant of. They don't know what you get. We had no organization here in Uganda we were pushing. They didn't know anything about, so we reached and we knew that we have to start up our representation, like the NGO to... Because we have a list, we have a lot of people, they are still stranded, but, uh, due to lack of support we cannot... But we have them and we push them to the security, to agencies, to the ministries to know about them, to find a way of helping. But... And others are still going. That's it. There are a lot that are going and there are a lot that are there that are stranded. So our way back was helped by IOM. Yeah. Okay. So are you married? Me? I'm not. Okay. Um, so when you came home, did you go to your parents' home or did you already have a, a separate home? I mean, were you welcomed back or did they, uh, people look... No? Tell me about that. I was, I was discriminated. Like, here if you leave one country, like y- y- your family relatives, if you leave for abroad, then they expect something to come from your side, like financially. Mm-hmm. And when you come back without it, they say you're a failure we get and we are discriminated. I was personally, because I was alone, I was discriminated very, very because I was traumatized. I, I, I didn't have any support. I reached where we are repatriated, but you reach out to a family member. Yeah, you came back. Yes. Uh, okay, we shall talk into that. So our-- my mom is alone, is a single mom and, and they have siblings. That's so it was difficult to, to get to me. She was in the village. So I, I spent three days sleeping near the street, like in the city square to try to figure out how can I start up, uh, and start up, uh, Uganda. Okay. So when I, it sound started becoming tough, I, I got some, some transport. I went to that village where my mom was. Did you tell your mom what happened? She knew when I was there and she, she, she has sickness. She has strokes. Like strokes. Oh. Yeah. She used to face such silence and I reached an extent of keeping quiet, not giving her any information till I got... We managed to get out and that's when I gave her the good news that, "Mom, good news. I'm out. I'm in that I'm back in the country." So she knew when I was there, but in that I, I kept, I kept some things with me without telling her because I knew when the first time I told her I was first time, she fainted and she was admitted hospital like, you know, and she almost dying and I knew that situations are going to become tough because I personally I was not okay. So I had to keep going. When I reached, I reached there. She knew what happened. She knew that I was back. I didn't have a phone, but I managed to, to which I reached- So now you're trying to rebuild your life. Yeah, I'm trying. With this, uh, with this organization, I do what I can with my skills. I do what I can, reach out, then help those ... 'Cause internally here we still have issues about trafficking. As I said, people are recruited, you get. So we have to encounter a recruitment by, uh, educating. Then you have to look at this side of the interpretation, because many survivors come back to your country, like they are deported now from different countries, Cambodia, then Laos then Vietnam. They are deported back, and they have nowhere but to go. Some reach out through our website. "Hi, we have seen your website. Yeah, I'm in Cambodia. Can you help me?" Then we try to, yes, we defend many slaves who are defend against. So yeah, trying. Yeah. And your NGO is called Action Against Trafficking then, right? Yeah. So someone, if someone here listens to this podcast and they want to contribute to that, you'll give me the information, right? So we'll do it that way. So are there people now in Uganda that you know about who are trying to recruit others? Yeah. That's why we do this, because the recruitment process is not structured. It's a random pro- it's a random pattern that agents can be individuals, but it's not a company that it's under government. It's registered, you get, that you can follow up, you know? It's individual process and online process. So you have to teach the local people, people that are reached out individually, both online and... That's why it is very, very strong, like a long process and still a journey. But people are losing their life. People are still going, and it's still expanding, and we have to fight that. You get? And Americans are affected. That's why, uh, I try, I reach out to teach because Americans are targeted, general Americans are. If they are not taught how it happens, what to avoid, you get, how it happens, you get, so it will become so worse. And it is worse, but it will become so worse because these people keep on changing strategies, how, how, how to do this or this or this or this. So Americans keep, need to be sensitized extensively how it is done, how, what to avoid. And here, these Ugandans that are recruited for the labor, they have to also be, and they Told, educated, helped, because survivors come back here and nothing to do. They, they are, they are hopeless. You look at your relatives are, are avoiding and you say, "Now, what should I do here home? I used to do this." And then you see another advert online, then you say, "Let me go to this. Maybe this is different from the other side." But it is the, it's the same. They are the same people. The torture is the same. The, the, the treatment is the same. The discrimination is the same, because these people discriminate a lot. Everything is the same, but different locations, you get. Yeah. So this survivor needs to be here, needs to be, like, helped into that way. Even if, because we try to, if someone gives us, like, you know, despite we received some donation, donations, small donations, we start up something here in Uganda. If someone can start up something with something that seems to be small, but like buying machine, popcorn machines and, and set up a business and earns a living, you get. So we do that for what, whom we, we know because you see this file? Uh-huh. You see those? Yeah. The names of people There are names of people here in my, my local. There are names of people here. So all have expectations- Those are people who have been- And none is abandoned ... those are people who have been trafficked? Yeah, it's from different nations. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Mostly that's, uh, Vietnam, Laos. We have-- we know that, uh, combined for different people. So all those have expectations. And we try to follow up, if you see, yeah, we try to follow up to see how, how are you like. They say, "Oh, do you have an expectation for us?" Say, "Don't worry." Because here, the organizations again is trapped, right? They are here. But mostly every organization, let me say it's not survival aid. Like, they don't know the pain. They don't know what's going on. I had an organization, one mission I went to when I was here for partnership, is for partnership day, like, like context. I reached there. They have a program for survival integration, like psychological what. And I asked, "Who do you have under those, like the psychological support, the risk and what?" And they said, "Uh, for now we don't have." And they say, "I have a lot I can do the referral to you and different groups." They said, "We have a criteria that we, we follow." I said, "Now of a criteria. This is person is a survivor. Everything he shows is from, is from trauma." Because I was there, I know what happened. I know how it is feeling at the moment. And you say you have a criteria, meaning this person, you will neglect that person because he's not into your criteria and yeah. So there are a lot of challenges here. That's why most people that come back that have been trafficked, they resort to just trying the other location that you see, I've seen on like we did. And the process, it reverses, and this person again starts looking for help. But because he saw another location, thought it will be an something different, like, because the location, they say they pay this, they pay. You say, "I was in Cambodia. Now this location is in Vietnam. Why shouldn't I go and try this Vietnam? Maybe it's different from that in Cambodia." Yet they are the same people, and they do the same thing. And you reach there, and then Try again and you die because people there. So it is really frustrating and there is no help. But when any people, because they are here, the big ones for us that are worse, the small. But the big ones don't look upon like what's happening. That's bureaucracy, that side and maybe they don't know what happens when someone is trafficked. They just have the terms that human trafficking, human ... But it's different. Yeah. There is a lot of challenges here. Yeah. In Uganda, are they targeting ... Is it mostly by your a- abilities or do they also look for between the ages of whatever and whatever- Mm like 20 and 40, or do they pay attention to that? We are five, as I said. They may not, they don't look into ages because one of the, one of us, the five that went, was a lady. She was 43 years old. 43? Okay. Yeah, she was by that time. So us, we are youths, but the other one, maybe they don't look into ages, as long as you can read and write. And do computers and type. Yeah, yeah. And you can speak the English. Oh, okay. Okay. You know the computer then you are off. Uganda's pretty big, right? They've got a lot of people to choose from Yeah, they have a lot of, but they mostly concentrate in border areas, border areas because they can either take you and you pass f- via Kenya, you get the border areas, and in the urban areas, that's where youths are mostly concentrated in like Kampala, the capital city. They target such areas, yeah, for recruitment. For the other far areas, the deeper, those people there, they are too illiterate to know. Hmm. Yeah. They not exposed, that's why they don't. But here, Kampala and these border areas, Busia, they target here because they go to school, people in those areas, and there are youths there. Yeah, they target those areas. For the other deeper ones, they don't. Yeah. They are illiterate mostly or they, someone who's illiterate there will come to Kampala, will come to Busia. Wow. So it's a hotspot of these areas. Not the others, they don't. Do you know what the population of Kampala is? It's around 6 million. Oh my goodness Yeah, they've got a lot of people to choose from just in that one city Yeah. And people here- Okay ... yeah, they are illiterate because I mean, of all, we, we get a lot of cases. No, I didn't know and our case was both online, it was on television, it was online, but they some, or they, they don't view media. They are not informed. That's why reaching, making it like workshops on like per village, it's more easier than going on a television because most don't watch them. At least on social media they can reach out because now phones are rampant. But going for news, because our case reached parliament, reached every state department, but someone I, I went, "Uh, did you see?" I went, "Did you..." I didn't know what is happening. We have one is having a child. They go give birth that side, but is in the deportation center. A lady gave birth, is in the deportation center waiting for a ticket, but we have to, yeah The, the people who are perpetrating this crime just need to be stopped. Uh, uh, and it's not you that wanted to do that to me. Um, so that's kinda one thing that I- I'm curious about too. So What, from my point of view is like, how could you do this to me and not have any feelings for me? Because, because you've spoken to me in a certain way, and I thought you loved me and... But it's probably a woman on the other end so that there's no- Yeah no emotional connection? It is psychological. It is a psychological process in the way I w- for instance, me, if I'm the one, uh, uh, I don't want to do it, but look into this. Back in the back, there are s- military personnel, and in the back of it, there's, there are structured torture means that are in place that if you, if you don't, if you don't do what we've said, if you don't meet such and such a target, this and this is arranged for you. And you're monitored 24/7. You get? And i- such pressure, s- such intimidation you get, y- you fear you get, and you're tortured. You reach an extent Limit what they are saying. And you push harder to do, because they push you to the limits to do what they want you to do. Yeah. You get. So it is so psychological in the way they do it. I'm not interested because I don't gain anything. What I do to you, they gain from it. But I'm tortured. Um, I lost hope. I'm, I don't communicate to family. I'm in, I'm in a loop of being alone. So it is so, so-- That's why we want to put up, we have put up the psychological support because me now personally, I used to wake up in like, not waking, waking up randomly in the night. I say now, "Okay, now I'm home. I'm home. I'm home. It's okay." Then you go back to sleep. Then you have the radiations. You see my body electrification. Yeah, you get. My body changed. I was electrified, scaling. So what you remember what you pass once, you know. Because we intended to be stubborn as in order to get out, we tried to demand for our passports. Well, lied to us, being tortured. We, we tried to hide their phones. Someone beats you up till you give that person that phone you have. You don't give up their phone, meaning you have to endure that pain for, for a long time till that person gives up and says, "Okay, he does not have that phone." Right. So it is really trauma. We have a lot to say, to talk, to maybe limited time because here it's night already. But I, I, I am open to educating the Americans what to avoid because there are a lot of channels they use. Sends random messages, Facebook messages, yeah. So Telegram messages. So there are a lot of things to avoid, and it has to be both-sided. Like sensitize Americans, sensitize the human labor they use. That's when these people will be trapped into not recruiting anyone. And whom they recruit is helped to hope to come back home. They will have less labor. And once Americans are recruit, like are taught, sensitized, then there will be less output to them, and this thing will collapse. Till I have hope. Yeah. Okay. Well, I cannot thank you enough for opening up and helping us understand what's going on. You've got a lot on your plate just educating Ugandans, you know- Yeah ... and, and your country. But we will get the word out over here as well, and hopefully we can help each other to stop this. Yeah. Somehow stop this. Yeah. Yeah. Because to me, both sided. You hit a pass- Yeah ... we hit a few. Like, every, each, each, each and everyone needs each other. Yeah. In, in another way. Because these Ugandans, the innocent ones that are taken, they are the m- man- human power that is used. And the Americans that side, they are the people that are targeted. And it's so both s- both are traumatized, both ... Each loses. Every, every side loses. Yeah. I lose my life, you lose your finance. So. Yeah. And the Chinese get the benefit of all of it. Yes. Yes. Because you lose that, you lose your mental stability, so. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's tough all the way around, for sure. So, okay. Well, keep in touch. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Have a good evening. Okay. Thank you for your work. Yeah. You too. You bet. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye-bye.