Erin West's War on the Global Scamdemic

Romance scams, pig butchering (we agree to disagree on this term), cryptocurrency fraud, and transnational organized crime have become a multi-billion-dollar global industry. But one former prosecutor has made it her mission to fight back.

In this episode of The Romance Scam Rebellion, I sit down with Erin West, former Deputy District Attorney and founder of Operation Shamrock, to discuss the criminal networks behind today's most sophisticated scams—and what it will take to stop them.

We explore how organized scam syndicates operate across international borders, why cryptocurrency has become their preferred payment method, and how law enforcement, financial institutions, and the private sector are beginning to work together to disrupt these criminal enterprises.

We also discuss:

How scam compounds operate
Why victims should never be blamed
The role cryptocurrency plays in modern fraud
How Operation Shamrock is bringing global partners together
What governments, banks, and technology companies can do to better protect consumers
Practical steps everyone can take to avoid becoming the next victim

This isn't just another conversation about scams—it's about understanding the global ecosystem that allows them to thrive and the people working tirelessly to dismantle it.
If you or someone you know has been affected by a scam, you're not alone. Education is one of the most powerful tools we have, and conversations like this are an important step toward protecting others.

If you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, and share it with someone you care about. Together, we can make it harder for scammers to succeed.

Erins podcast:  https://www.operationshamrock.org/podcast/stolen 

Operation Shamrock web page:  https://www.operationshamrock.org/

Transcript

 Welcome back to the Romance Scam Rebellion. What if the greatest financial crime in the world history, not just American history, was happening right now in plain sight, and most people don't even have an idea? When I lost everything to a scam, I had no idea there were people on the other side of that screen who were trapped, trafficked, and threatened with violence, forced to do it. They work in compounds big enough to be college campuses, hidden deliberately far from the rest of civilization, and for very good reason Today's guest has traveled to those compounds. She stood across a river from them. She's physically walked through the ones that were raided. Erin West is the founder of Operation Shamrock. She's a former prosecutor of 26 years, and one of the most fearless voices in this fight. What she started seeing in 2022 stopped her in her tracks, an entirely new kind of scam. Operating out of these massive compounds in Southeast Asia and run by transnational organized criminals and powered by human trafficking victims forced to steal billions from everyday Americans just like me. She left her career, founded Operation Shamrock, and hasn't stopped fighting since. In this conversation, Erin takes us inside the compounds, explains why she calls this our economic 9/11, and tells us exactly what victims can do right now to get help. This one will change the way you see the world. Please like and subscribe. Now, let's get to our conversation. Today, I have got a very special guest for you, and her name is Erin West. She has a nonprofit called Operation Shamrock, and she's here today to explain to us about how that works. So thank you, Erin, for coming on this podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be on your podcast. Would you tell us about you, first of all, and how you got into this business, and what is Operation Shamrock? Sure. I was a prosecutor for 26 and a half years, and the last eight years of my career I spent fighting high-tech crime. And starting in 2022, I was seeing a, a new type of victim who had had all of their money stolen from them by meeting someone online. And I, I knew about romance scams. I'd heard about romance scams before, but I had never seen anything like this before. The numbers were staggering. It was so much loss. And so I, um, became really fascinated in how this was happening, why it was different, and what was going on, and I came to find out that it was a whole new type of crime that was happening from a really organized scam compounds in Southeast Asia. This was transnational organized crime. And so I did what I could and, and organized and, uh, and fought this and got... Was able to claw back some of the, the stolen money and get it in the hands of victims, and I did all that as a prosecutor. And then I realized that there was more I wanted to say about this, and I, I couldn't talk publicly when I was a, a, you know, employee of the government. So I ultimately retired. I started a nonprofit where I fight this type of crime all day, every day. And it's taken you around the world now, right? It really has. I-- Once I realized that this was happening at scale in Southeast Asia, it was really hard for me to understand that this was happening in 2025, that really this was happening inside massive compounds where victims had been trafficked in. They had been led to believe that they were doing, uh, uh, they thought they were getting an office job, and the next thing they knew, they were, their passports were taken, their mobile phones were taken, and they were forced to work as the very scammers behind all of the screens that we see today. And so I needed to see that with my own eyes. I needed to understand where this is happening and why it was happening, so I started traveling to Asia to see it. And I found myself on the other side of a river from KK Park, one of the most notorious scam compounds in Southeast Asia. And then when I had an opportunity in the Philippines to walk through some raided compounds, I was really appreciative of the opportunity to see what was happening when it was happening. So the compounds, they're mainly in Cambodia now, but there's some in the Philippines. Are they-- Where else are they? Yeah. So I would say that the biggest, uh, the biggest area where this is happening is, uh, the country of Cambodia. These scam compounds are all over Cambodia. Same with Myanmar. They're, um, a lot of them are visible from the Thai border, but now that this has become such a hot issue, the scammers are building them more in the middle of, uh, uh, distant from the border so that they're not as easy to see. But- Out in the jungle or something? Yeah. That's exactly right. Um, definitely this is also happening in the Philippines, and, and then now what we're seeing as Cam- as there's been a crackdown in Cambodia, and so a lot of people have left the scam compounds in Cambodia and are moving to different places like Laos, like Sri Lanka, like Madagascar. We know that this is an evolving situation and that these Transnational organized criminals will move their operations to places where it is easier for them to do that work. But they haven't closed down totally in Cambodia, right? That's exactly right. So I think Cambodia would love for the world to believe that this type of work is no longer operating in Cambodia. They'll tell you that. But what we can also tell you is that there are people on the ground who are still actively involved in that type of work, and myself, I've seen it. I, I've been there on the ground and I've seen that these facilities are s- are still in operation. So, um, Amnesty International just released a report within the past two weeks that calls out, uh, that this so-called crackdown by the government in Cambodia is really more of a, a smoke and mirrors situation. They re- they're saying that only 25% of the compounds they've identified have been visited by the police. But aren't the police in on this? Well, that's the funny part. So what we know about how this is... If you think about it, how are you going to run criminal operations in a country? Well, in order to do that, because these are so obvious, these are massive facilities, these look like the PayPal campus. They, they are, they're big. They look like a university campus, some of them. In order to do this work that is so obvious, you need to pay off the very people that are coming to take it over. So what we saw in Cambodia was very much ruling elites benefiting from this work. We saw some of their closest companions being responsible for some of the biggest locations, uh, compound facilities that, that the amount of wealth that this business, this business of scamming- Yeah, yeah was bringing into Cambodia was like nothing anyone had ever seen before, where before their main industries were textiles and tourism, now they were getting more than half of their GDP from the scam industry. And so it's hard to imagine that all of a sudden, uh, the Cambodian government has decided that they don't want that income, they don't want that wealth. It's very hard to imagine that, uh, they would be willing to give that up. They'd love the world to think that they did, but I cannot imagine, uh, that that is what's actually happening. Yeah. And that's from, like, the prime minister on down, right? It is. It's the ruling elite. We know this. Yes. I, I did, uh, some digging on the, uh, the prime minister. Do you know where he was educated? I think it's West Point, isn't it? West Point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's like we're going through 9/11 all over again, you know, with everybody being educated here, then they go home and, and they just wanna kill us all or, or, well, these guys just wanna take all our money, but Yeah, it's just- But that- It's awful but that's it. Yeah, and that's exactly it is I think that we are at a 9/11 type situation here. We, this is our economic 9/11. This is how- Yeah ... we are being fully disrupted at scale. And when you think of the amount of wealth that has been transferred from the United States into these countries, it is a national security issue. Yeah. Does the government realize how much money is leaving the country? You know, I think for a while this hadn't risen to the levels that I wanted this to, to rise to. I think that I started talking about this in 20- and I, uh, I haven't stopped talking about it since, and I've now had two opportunities to testify before Congress. I've, I, I briefed, uh, members of the Hill on different things, and I think that now at least, uh, there is a, a general knowledge of how much money is being stolen, but I still don't think we are understanding what the long-term ramifications of that will be, where, uh, before people were going to be able to support their own retirement and support their own kids going to college, now we have a situation where that will likely fall on, uh, on the government to, um, to, to, uh, be responsible financially for things that ideally we were not going to be responsible for because people had their own, their own nest egg. Yeah. And unfortunately, that nest egg has been raided by transnational organized criminals, and there will be long-term repercussions. And are the big tech companies ever going to be held to any account? You know, I, I'm so glad you bring up that point because you and I have, have had conversations about banking and what banking has done here, and I think that we always see banking at the table in terms of what they're trying to do to make this better. But what we really lack is any kind of actual transparent commitments from social media about what they are willing to do to curb this scamdemic What we see is that they hide behind, um, contributing to certain organizations or, um, assisting certain members of government in what they're doing. What we haven't heard is an ongoing, "We will stop the scam ads on our platform. We will root out the fake profiles on our platform." And so as a result, uh, they-- I find them to be enablers of this problem. And so your question, will they be held to account? Not until the rest of the world is willing to gang up on them. I, I mean, I think we saw Zuckerberg last night at Donald Trump's event with the USC Fight in front of the White House. I think we have a situation where, uh, people get differential treatment and, uh, and when we have one of the largest enablers of the scamdemic as close to the White House as Mark Zuckerberg is, we've got a real problem. Yeah, and it's not just him. I mean, it's pretty much everybody out there that has billions of dollars, right, that, that have anything to do with tech, it seems like. Yeah, q- yeah, I-- and I think that, um, a lot of times people are reluctant to say, "Oh," you know, the-- or reluctant to want to do anything about this because they think, "Oh, this is something happening abroad. This is something that sounds really- Yeah ... difficult." And I always look to the gaps and where, where it is that we do have levers to pull. And what I see is, is, um, uh, is Elon Musk's SpaceX and Starlink being responsible for how a lot of these bad actors are getting their telco. And when we look at the contribution of American companies in enabling this to happen, there needs to be some accountability. Yeah. But they're so far in the pockets of those in power, it is pretty mind-blowing and, and not in a good way. It seems like nothing is, is ever gonna happen. Meanwhile, I live on unemployment and social security, as long as that lasts. It's, it's depressing, is what it is, that we can't move a little bit faster in this country. But I understand that the way things are right now hopefully will not be how they are in the future. Hopefully something will happen. But- I hope so ... okay, so take us back for a minute, because I know, uh, I, I saw you go to Cambodia and you're in the car with your friends going through some of these scam compounds And you saw one of those dark rooms. What the crap? What, what are they like? Are like, they like a cell or can you describe that? Yeah. Yes. I've, um, I've definitely seen torture rooms, and what I can tell you is, uh, the one I saw for sure in the Philippines that was identified as a torture room had a, a locked... It would be locked from the outside. It was a, a longer dark room. It was like, um, it was like a closet, only it was deep. Mm-hmm. And on the wall there was a metal bar that was bolted to the wall, and they could handcuff you to that bar, and from there they could, uh, attack you with baseball bats or tasers. Oh. I've heard, I've heard horrible, horrible stories about people who were, who, who h- were handcuffed to a wall like that and left for days with, um, without food and water. And, um, there are really horrible, horrible stories I could tell you about the amount of violence that is happening to these human trafficked workers to, to coerce them into doing this really inhumane work. I, I can't imagine that the world has gotten that evil. It's so hard to believe that in this day and age that could still go on. I- that's exactly how I felt, which is why I went there to see it, because it was really hard for me to fathom that there were these massive buildings with people inside them forced to do this work. And I stood right across the river from them. I saw them. I know that that was happening while I was there. And there's something very eerie about knowing that in this, in this time, just like you were saying, that we all know that there are slaves inside here in forced labor doing projects that are so destructive to other humans. And I can remember specifically last summer when a, uh, a trafficked victim from Uganda reached out to me. He sent me the coordinates, told me where he was, and he said, "I am going to work right now to go, uh, to go attack Americans. I am going to work right now to go reach out to your cousin, your mom, your, you know, your friend, and, and romance them and steal their money." And there was nothing I could do with that information, and I, I used it every which way I knew how. I gave it to media. I used it on my LinkedIn. I spoke at a G7 event where I played some of his audio saying, "We have got to stop this." And there, uh, to me, the humanity of this crisis is what drives me every day. The fact that we have victims like you on one side who have been financially destroyed and emotionally robbed, and then on the other side we have human trafficked victims who are being physically beaten and who are being forced to do really inhumane acts. And, and the only people benefiting are these organized criminal syndicates And they're benefiting in a way, in a transfer of wealth that is absolutely unprecedented. We have never seen this kind of movement of money like we are seeing right now. Yeah, it's incredible. It just, I cannot even fathom- It's a generation's worth of wealth. It is instead- At least one generation. I mean- Right, in- At least, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a tremendous amount of money. And then when you think of it, and you know, you and I have spoken about the way your money was transferred, and that it's getting transferred in so many... Everybody's getting a cut- Mm-hmm from the, um, from the Bitcoin, uh, or, uh, crypto kiosk operators to the, to the even- You know, the, the true American crypto exchanges are getting a piece of this, and that e- everybody, platforms are getting a piece of this when they are allowing these bad actors to buy advertising on their platforms. Yeah. Everybody is getting a- Yeah ... piece of this money, and it is an in- i- it's just an incredible amount of wealth. It's hard to understand where it could all possibly be today. And consequences be damned, right? We're just not seeing nearly enough accountability. Yeah. Well, we're seeing relatively zero accountability. So when so- I have had people reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, I reported this to the ID. Nothing's been happening. Is there anybody else I can reach out to?" I've actually been directing people your direction for Operation Shamrock, plus AE, who's- Yes ... in Dr. Fraud Watch. And but when they come to you, what does Operation Shamrock do? I'm glad you asked. So the way Operation Shamrock originated was I was a prosecutor. I was a prosecutor, and I was seeing how many victims there were, and, and how much they needed... I was seeing that this was happening over the blockchain, and that to be effective in helping victims, you need immediate information. You need that information getting immediately in front of an investigator who knows what to do with it. And we were in a place where there weren't enough investigators who knew what to do with it, and there wasn't a good mechanism for getting victims in front of those investigators in the shortest amount of time possible. So we built something called our triage team, because what we found in Santa Clara County with my team was there were ways to recover some of this stolen cryptocurrency if we got the information soon enough and if, if we were able to do something with it. So, um, so we reached out to other investigators and prosecutors and analysts working in law enforcement who were doing this work, and we said, "Let's team up. Let's build a coalition." And we did. We built something called the Crypto Coalition. We started off with 85 members of law enforcement, and now we're well over 2,000. Okay. And we, we work together. Um, we have a very active listserv. We have a monthly webinar where we learn from each other, and we have an in-person, um- conference once a year. But the most effective thing that we have in this coalition is we have our triage team. Our triage team is about 20 members of law enforcement who volunteer their time. And so when you refer people to Operation Shamrock, there are a couple things we can do for them. Um, the first thing is the triage team. So if you go to operationshamrock.org and you, you click on the front page, I want to report a scam, that will move you through to a portal where you can enter your data. Your data will be transferred in real time to our team of qualified investigators. We will look at your case. We will get back to you. That was the gap we were seeing, is that nobody was responding to victims. Yeah. The victims didn't have any answers, and at least from Operation Shamrock, you're gonna get an answer, and the answer could be, "I'm so sorry, this money moved too fast. We can't catch it." Or it could be, "There's another, there's, uh, another team working on this as well. You are part of a bigger crime that we can find." And so that's, that's what triage does, and so we are able to support victims in that way. The second way we support victims is if you want to be heard. On Fridays, we meet with survivors. We do two survivor story, um, meets where we will meet with you individually to hear what happened to you and to listen to where the gaps are in law enforcement, in banking, in social media, and then we share that information in an anonymized way. So if you want to be heard, we'd love to hear you at Operation Shamrock as well. But, uh, but if you want, uh, to be around a, a group of people that is just like you, then yes, go to the Fraud Watch Network with AARP. They are constantly putting together new cohorts of groups that meet to, to discuss this and to, to provide support to each other. So there are some decent resources out there if you know how to find them, but I will say lack... There, this is definitely a space that could use more help. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I mean, if they're reaching out to me, it's like there needs to be more, uh- Yeah ... visible means. Absolutely. But, but hopefully, I mean, are there any other organizations that you think that I should consider when I redirect somebody, or are you guys- Definitely the two best? Well, I think the, uh, the state of the art is AARP's Fraud Watch Network. Um, but I would also recommend there's a, there's an entity called Give An Hour, and that will get you in front of, um, um, some, some volunteer psychologists who will volunteer their time to talk to you. There's also, um, RC, which is the I- I, I don't know what it stands for, identity theft. Mm. But essentially, they will help you with shoring up your identity and making sure that you've closed all the loops where people could be taking advantage of what they've stolen from you. There are, um... Gosh, I'm, uh, I can't think of other obvious ones out there, but, um, yeah, no, I'd leave it at that. Okay. Okay. So what has this work done? What has it cost you personally, and what keeps you going? I mean, I know you're- Yes ... just there 24/7 all the time running. I think what keeps me going... Well, let's start with what it's cost me. I mean, I'm fighting a fight every day that, uh, we're not going to win. We're not going to win. So we are not... My goal every day is not to end transnational organized crime, because I don't think that's realistic. But my goal every day is to make it one click more difficult, more expensive, more time-consuming for bad actors to do this work. I want to move forward every day one, one click. And so, um, I would say what's been-- Well, the cost on me has been really the acceptance that there's no way to win this, and that it is small baby steps over and over. And, uh- And so what keeps me going is I would say there is a win every day. There's a win every day. I will hear from someone that says, "That was meaningful to me. Thank you for doing that. I, I listened to Anola's podcast and I realized that a similar thing happened to me and I feel less alone." So there are, there are tiny wins every day and that keeps me going because I've never seen anything like the emotional damage that has been wrought on our nation in a really organized, systemic way. Yeah. It's- It's rough. It's insane. And I think, um, one other piece I'd like to say about that is when, when bad actors are doing this kind of damage to other industries, there's a way for that industry to unite. If, if they were taking on the American automotive industry, there would be a, an ability of the American autos- auto industry to come together and to fight this in a bigger way. When they're taking on our individual people, household by household, there is not an obvious way for us to bring everybody together in a way that we then present that, we march on Capitol Hill and present this information. Yeah. So, um, it, it's a difficult place to be. Five years from now, what's it gonna look like? Five years from now I'm gonna have a gorgeous garden because- ... I'm going to have less work to do and fewer people to talk to every day and I'm gonna have more time in my garden and, uh, more books read. But, um, but I, I hope that I will be able to look back and think, "Wow-" I had a hand in making a big difference. You are amazing, I must say. I, I just, I look up to you. I just think you're the bomb. But I do have one issue. Oh, I know what it is. Let's go. Oh, she's taking a drink out of her mug. I see what's happening here. Mm-hmm. So tell me why you're, why you think it's so important to say the PB, the pig butchering thing. I will. I will. And you'll notice I did not say it once in all of our conversations. I know, because you're talking to a victim. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. No, no, no. Actually, I do when I talk to a victim usually. I do c- I didn't do it with you 'cause I know that this is, uh, I know that you've talked about. Okay, I will tell you. I will tell you exactly this, and I've had this exact conversation with Patty Stokes from AARP. Here is why I use that term. I use that term because it is my job to make sure that everyone in the country knows what this crime is. And I'll tell you, I think that what was happening when this first emerged was that everybody wanted to call it something different. And because they were calling it something different, we were not adequately tallying how big this problem was. And because people were calling it, it things like, uh, uh grooming, uh, financial grooming or, or I, I was asked to speak at somewhere recently and they told me I couldn't use that term and that I had to call it relationship-based investment scams. I, um, I find that, that those terms water down what happened to you. What happened to you was violent. What happened to you was absolutely, uh, criminal, and it wasn't nice, and it wasn't, it wasn't groo- just grooming. It was grooming and then quite frankly, uh, a slaughter. And, and so I use that term, not because I think that the victim is what they're saying, but I use that term to get attention because it is that kind of attention that got me on Good Morning America, that got me on 60 Minutes Australia, that gets me in front of, of Congress, is I'm not watering down what this is. This is a violent attack on America, and if I call it something else, nobody cares. But do you think that it promotes victims coming forward, or do you think that that stops them in their tracks? Well, I would love to hear if that is the case because I will tell you, I spoke with a victim, and I actually did a LinkedIn post about this. I spoke with a victim last week and I said, I, I asked him the question that I always ask, and the question is, "What could your bank have done that would have made you do something else?" And he said, "Oh, I don't, I don't know." And I said, "Well, what if they gave you, um, a, a document? What if they gave you a, a, like, a handout about this crime?" And he said, "Oh, maybe." And I said, "What, what if they called it pig butchering?" And he said, "Well, that would've caught my attention." And that would've, that-- He, he was strong about saying, "Yeah, that might have, that might have made a difference." So, but, but Enola, if you believe that this is really stopping people from coming forward because they don't want to be considered to be a pig, then I'd like to hear about that. I'd like to hear from, I'd like to hear from someone that, that feels that way. But we'll never know if they, if they resist coming forward because of that language, right? Yes, but then, then I would have to say then I think that what I have done with that term outweighs the fact that some people might not have come forward. But it's, it's just what the Chinese did when they were starting this to dehumanize their victims Yes. Uh, yes And you're- Well, I'm not okay with any of it. No. I mean, my- I, I'm clearly not okay if this is what I do seven days a week. Yeah. I'm not remotely okay with any of it, but I will say that their entire business model is to dehumanize you. Their enti- I've been inside- Yes ... their businesses that they treat as businesses that have signs on the walls that are like, "Courage," and, "Together we move forward." They have sales goals for these people. I've seen their inter- intercommunication where they're talking about, "Together we prosper." They are not treating you as humans in any way. And to me, um, I need the loudest, most annoying, most vile, most attention-getting- Term ... terminology because To be honest, there are still a lot of people that don't care. That don't care and don't understand. But why isn't it- And I need to get the... Go ahead. Sorry. Why isn't it just called a romance scam? I mean- 'Cause it's not a romance scam. The, a romance scam- It is. They romance me ... it's not just a romance scam. Well- It is a romance scam on steroids, and if you say romance scam, they are going to think of the very typical Nigerian romance scam where they take 20 or $30,000 from you. This is a, a, this is your entire net worth they're taking from you. Mm-hmm. And so I don't think anybody, I, I'll be honest with you, I think it's time to be honest too and transparent. It takes a lot to get the attention of Congress. It takes a lot to make those people care, and to do that, I really need to... I think what, what, what you might not get is I'm trying to humanize you in the biggest way possible. And to humanize you, I'm using that term because if I said that a bunch of people got financially groomed, they would say, "Mm, too bad." No. Yeah A bunch of people got pig butchered, and they stole their entire net worth, and this is happening at scale across the United States, and it's decimating people. And if that, if that makes you, um, feel, feel sad about this or feel... Then I think what they've done to you outweighs a million times what Erin West is calling it. Who cares what Erin- ... West says about any of it? Um, don't let me get you mad. Well, hopefully somebody does. Well, I- So, I mean, I'm not taking it personally. I just- I know you're not. You're making a point. I just... Yeah. I just cl- did you see my, uh, thing on LinkedIn about it? I sure did. I did. I did, and I wasn't gonna... You are my friend, and I wasn't going to, uh, I, I am happy to have this discussion with you in this format- No ... but I wasn't going to start a LinkedIn feud about it. No, no, no. Holy cow. People in this space know that. Yeah. People in this space know that Erin West is gonna say pig butchering. She is, and she's gonna say it- Yeah ... over and over. And- Yeah ... um, and, and Kathy Stokes is not gonna say pig butchering, and that's okay too. Kathy Stokes is, you know, Kathy Stokes is quoted in, in article on ABC today about, about this threat and how bad it is. Everybody, there are a, a handful of us that are doing our best every single day, and I have nothing but respect for how we're all doing it. Yeah. A- and, and same here. I mean- I know that. I just got done talking to Katherine Stodes before I talked to you today. I'm just going, "Oh my gosh, this is insane." Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I just kinda, I just kinda wanted to tease it because I knew that she didn't use it, and I knew- Oh, I know ... that you did. Yeah. And I thought, "I'm just gonna goad her just a little bit." Oh, I love it. I love your mug. I love your mug. And, and I think it's- ... important to talk about it, and I, because, because it gives me the opportunity to show you again, like, I'm all about the victims. There's no question I'm all about the victims. Yeah. The last thing I wanna do is hurt their feelings. And, and if that causes them to not come forward, then I think we've actually got bigger problems than me. Probably. Yeah. I mean, they may not have come forward anyway. We'll never know why they don't come forward until they come forward. Yeah. Yeah. If, if they- I know ... if they do. I know. So I'm, maybe that's my job. Maybe I just need to be kind and gentle and pull them out, you know? Because I- Yes ... do think it's important for them to come out after they're scammed. Oh, I do too. You know? Absolutely I do. I mean, it hit me Six months, um, before I could- Yeah say anything. Yeah. But I, I've, I've been getting stronger and stronger, and I'm gonna get to the point where I'm obnoxious and, um- You think? That was opinionated. Um, well, no. I'm, I'm gonna be kind. Do it. Because I just try and get people to understand that they are not alone, that if- No ... if I can survive and went through what happened to me, then, you know, hooray if you only lost $20,000. I mean, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. But I don't know where the hell my head was. It's sad. I love you saying that, but I love you saying that because that's the thing. That shows the level of, that shows the level of manipulation happening. Oh, yeah. They're masters. They really are. And, and I didn't, I was not looking for a relationship, you know? Right. I was fine. Right. Everything was good. Right. So. They showed up. So anyways. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I so appreciate you being on my podcast today. It was really nice to talk to you for this long. I, I- Exactly. We had a really good session today. It was wonderful. So, um, you carry on, and I know that when you say pig butchering, that you're not thinking that I'm a pig. But I don't know that I'll let anybody else get away with it. D- you, you- Unless, unless they're doing the same thing as you. Right. You know? Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, because- You do. You call it out. Boy, that did get a lot of attention, though, I have to tell you. It does. I just kind of went- I love, I love that "What are you doing?" Yeah. Yeah. So. Exactly. Yeah. All right, my dear. Love you. Well, keep in touch. Likewise. It's, um, it's nice to hear from you. Likewise. Thank you. All right. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye.