She Refused to Stay Silent: Kathy Waters and the Fight Against Romance Scammers

What started as one woman's effort to protect her mother's friend turned into a decade-long fight against romance scammers on a national and international scale. In this episode, Kathy Waters, co-founder of Advocating Against Romance Scammers (AARS)  shares how a stolen military photo led her to uncover an entire network of fake profiles, and how that discovery reshaped her life.

Kathy talks about tracking down the real man behind the stolen photos, meeting with lawmakers in Washington D.C., speaking before the United Nations, and helping launch World Romance Scam Prevention Day,  all while working a full-time job. We dig into why social media platforms keep failing to remove fake accounts, the fight to reform Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, and why survivors are so often blamed instead of believed.

This is a conversation about persistence, compassion, and what it really takes to hold powerful platforms accountable.

Resources mentioned:
Learn more or find support at AARS' website: advocatingforu.com

Transcript

 Welcome back to this episode of Romance Scam Rebellion. Most people who fight scams never planned on making it their life's work. For Kathy Waters, it started with a simple question: Why was her mother's friend sending tens of thousands of dollars to a man she had never met? That question led Kathy down a rabbit hole that would change her life forever. She uncovered stolen identities, fake military profiles, and an international network of romance scammers exploiting some of society's most vulnerable people. But unlike most of us, Kathy wouldn't stop there. She tracked down the real man whose photos were being stolen. She co-founded Advocating Against Romance Scammers, known as AARS. She has met with lawmakers in Washington, spoken before the United Nations, helped launch World Romance Scam Prevention Day, and continues to advocate for stronger protections for victims all around the world, all while still working a full-time job. What struck me most during our conversation wasn't just Kathy's knowledge, it was her compassion. Every day, she hears from victims whose lives have been shattered, and she refuses to let them face it alone. In this episode, we talk about the realities of romance scams, why social media companies continue to struggle with fake accounts, the fight to reform Section 230, what needs to change in Washington, and why education alone isn't enough. Here's my conversation with Kathy Waters. Ms. Kathy Waters, I really appreciate you being on this podcast. Can you start out by telling us a little bit about your life prior to when you started into the scam world? Sure, yeah. I'm glad I'm here. So before, um, I work at a hospital. Um, I worked as a social services director for seven years at a skilled nursing facility. Um, pretty much my niche. I love working with the elderly community, and it kinda has my heart, so. Hmm. Um, I've got a family. I'm married. Um, I've been married almost 30 years. I've got twin girls that are both 20 years old, and I mean, well, I guess, you know, if they're twins they're gonna be the same age. But, um- So, and really, you know, I've just kind of liv- lived the basic life. And, um, I went from being a social services director to moving on to a big hospital where I started working in, um, orders for home health and hospice patients, um, getting them set up at skilled nursing facilities. And I didn't have that one-on-one contact as much anymore with residents at skilled nursing facilities, and I really missed that. Hmm. And, um, not knowing how I was maybe going to fulfill that in my life, because, like, I'm just- Hmm ... I'm a very big people person, and being stuck in an office after that, it was just, um, really wasn't that good health-wise for me mentally, you know? I was kinda getting a little bit down, and Um, anyways, okay, so getting to my, uh, how I got into this too was, um, my mother's friend was scammed. Uh, my mom was telling me about a story that she, um, about this guy that had been talking to her in the military, getting ready to retire. Um, and he proposed, but he wasn't going to bring the ring until he was gonna see her in person. And, you know, I told my mom, "Gosh, this all doesn't sound..." Of course, like they say, too good to be true. Yeah. Um, so Thanksgiving comes around, and, um, her mom had just passed, and so she really didn't have anywhere to go for Thanksgiving, so I invited her over. And she was talking to us about her new boyfriend, and she showed me his picture on Facebook. And, um, so I remembered his name, and his name was Ross Newton, and, um, I started looking it up later on that night because I, like I said, I knew something wasn't right. And, um, so I, I found his picture. He's in his military uniform, and, um, when I blew up the picture, I noticed that on his name badge it said either Lenny or Denny. It definitely wasn't Newton. Mm-hmm. Um, so I started doing a little research, and I typed in just, "Army man Denny," is all I put. And, um, I ended up finding Brian Denny's LinkedIn page, um, the actual person who was in that picture. So, um, yeah, the, the more I started to research and get involved, and, and I know I'm kind of getting kind of ahead of myself here, but, um, I just wanted to say that how it all kind of connected is how much I love doing this because I love helping people. And, um, just come to find out a lot of the community is more of an elderly population. And, um, anyways, so... And that's just where I am now today. So that was just kind of a background in how I'm kind of here and so involved and why I'm so involved. Yeah. So how long did your mother's friend's relationship go on with this guy? It was about, I would say about, I think, about five months, uh, from when I told her. Um, I started sending her pictures of multiple accounts of the same, of Brian's, uh, same pictures, um, that here's another account, here's another account, here's another account. You know, "This is not, you're talking to a scammer. You're not talking to the real person." I found the real person, um, talking to. I'm pretty sure she did a little bit after, of course. Um, so maybe it could have gone on six, seven, eight months. Did she lose money? She did. She lost, um, between 35 to $40,000. And was there an age appropriateness in this relationship? How do you mean? Like... Like she had to have been older than Brian, right? I mean, could you see that right away that your mom- Older? She, so she was. She was older, um- She was about, I think, 60. 60 to 62, I believe. She had just retired. Uh, she was a nurse. And, um, like I said, her mom passed away, left her quite a bit of money when she passed. Mm. And it just all, you know, it was the- Yeah ... the perfect ingredients to a, uh, to a romance scam. But- Yes um, yeah, so I, I would say she was about 10 to 15 years older than Brian was at the time. Okay. Because, uh, it seems like that happens quite a bit. You know, the guy who scammed me was supposedly 12 years younger than me, and so I don't know if that's a thing. If, I, I would like to find out the psychology about that. Do women fall more for men who appear to be younger than them, or does it matter the age? I know this guy was always telling me, "Age is just a number," you know, because I would kind of freak out about it. So your mom's friend. Mm-hmm. She's still around. Oh, yeah. Yes. Is, what's her state of mind these days? How long has it been? Um, so since then, it's been almost 10 years. Um, I, I'm not in contact with her anymore. Wow. Um, yeah, so it kinda got a little rough. She really believed that, that the scammers worked with Brian because they knew way too much about Brian- Yeah ... um, which was not the case. I mean, everything is online now, and, uh- And what, what's not, they'll make up. Right. Right. And so, and, and that was maybe about two or three years after I had told her. So I mean, I don't believe she was still talking to him, but she still truly believed in her heart that there was still a connection between the scammers and Brian. She understood that it was two different people, but it was very hard for her to, to understand the manipulation of how deep it was. Yeah. So, um, so we kind of separated ourself, broke ties, and, um, yeah, you know, it's really important- Did she ever resent you for that? You know, she never said. Um, I don't think she did. Uh, she ... I remember when, um, I was going to meet Brian for the first time in DC, we were gonna go talk to lawmakers, and, um, we were actually being fol- No, it was the second time, I believe. Uh, we were being followed by, um, by a news, a news station. And, um, they wanted to interview her, and she agreed. And when they walked to her doorstep and knocked on the door, she opened the door and, and Brian wasn't there. And she said, "I thought Brian was coming." And they said, "Oh, no, we're meeting Brian in DC with Kathy." Um, and she became very upset. Um, she, I think she really thought she was gonna be able to get that connection. Um, and then that same night, uh, she started text messaging me about how Brian is not gonna meet me there, you know, there is no such thing as Brian. So it was still very hard. And, and I mean, and I had already We had already gone to a meeting, um, with Facebook, and so, I, I, I knew Brian. I knew, you know, he's a real person, and I, I tried to tell her, and it was just, um, it was very hard. But she- I don't think she ever had any hard feelings with me. I think it was just more of, of trying to comprehend what actually happened and how, how it could actually happen to her like that. It's a lot, you know? Yeah. A lot. I mean, it takes a long time to wrap your head around that some, some people can be so evil. Yes. You know? It's... Yeah, it's- And every... And you s- you think all of the little things that go into this scam that makes it so real. Mm-hmm. And how they're just professional. Like, like a professional plumber would come in and take care of your stuff, this is a professional- Yep scammer that's, you know, trying- Yeah ... to scam individuals. It's, yeah. Yeah. So it's- And not understanding that, you just get blindsided by this stuff. Right. Absolutely. So tell me about the meeting between you and Brian, your first meeting. I, I don't imagine that he was all that excited to hear from you, for some reason. Um, probably- Maybe he was. Probably not. Um, I messaged him on LinkedIn and I said, you know, pretty much I think what anybody would, a family member or friend, "You know, I've got a, a friend of mine that I believe is being scammed. I think they're using your photos. Um, you know, can you please let me know if you've heard of this or, you know, at least let me know that, you know, this is what's going on so I can confirm it with her." And a couple days later, he responded back to me and he did tell me that, um, yes, this had been happening. He'd known about it for about six months. Mm. Um, he's been trying to educate people in the meantime. He's been trying to get his accounts down off of Facebook, 'cause at that time, that's all he knew was that it was on Facebook at the time. And, um, and he's like, "You know, nothing's working. Nothing's happening." So then I sit and stew about it, and I'm like, how can people be so evil, like you said, you know? Mm-hmm. How, how can this happen? And how can nothing be done? Or what is being done? I had no idea. Yeah. You know, you hear about the scams, and I'm just like every other person who hasn't been scammed, you know, "That's not gonna happen to me. I don't need to learn about it." You know? I, I know about frauds. I can recognize that. I would never say that to, you know, today No Ever Me neither Ever. Um, but, um, so, so the more I started looking into it, um, I started... He said, "You know, Cathy, you can look up Mike Denny, Steve Denny, John Denny. You're gonna find my picture." Because I was only looking under, after he told me that, for some reason I was just looking under Brian Denny. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "You know, I'm finding a ton of these accounts on here." And he's all, "You can look up any name." So I did, and I started documenting and documenting and, um, and reporting them, and sending them to Brian to report them. And I said, "You know what? We, we need to make a report about this. And, you know, how can this be going on? You know, and through the social, the, the social media company know what's going on." I mean, it's just how naive I was at the time, um, because how could any company allow this to happen- Yeah ... over and over and o- Yeah And this, and I'm just thinking, like, right now we, like, have a couple fake ac- or a couple hundred fake accounts of Brian, but how could this be possible that all, you know, two fake accounts, you know, of Brian are up there? It's the same picture over and over, you know? And here we are years down the road and thousands if not millions of fake accounts are up. Um, they're very much aware, very much aware, um, of what's going on, and- But they really like Brian because women really like him, right? But I mean, they're, they're not taking- It's absolutely- any responsibility for anything. They're not helping- Right ... the situation. Social media you mean? Yeah. Right. The- Oh, yeah. No. We, um, you know, they asked us after our first meeting, "Send us all of the pictures that you know of that are being used online and, um, in the scams." So we did. That night we went back, we sat and went through all of the photos of his and, um, like, he went through 'em, I went through 'em, like, of what I had seen as in reporting. Um, and They were supposed to take those photos, red flag them so they would never come back up active again online. And, um, so, you know, after months of noticing the same pictures are still coming up after we sent them to Facebook, um, it was time for another, another report and an, you know, research and, uh, just how much they aren't doing. Anyways, and we always bash Facebook and, and that's just because honestly, they're the ones that chose to work with us. Yep. Um, and we really had hope. You know, we really went in there hoping that they were gonna listen to us and wanna work with us, and how can we help them. And, um, and then later on I think we just realized that they were just there to pacify us and, um, you know, hopefully put in a good word like they're doing good, just like they're doing now with, uh, with the FBI and the, um, the special scam. Um, oh, I can't remember the name of it. Strike, I don't know if it's Scam Strike Force or something like that. But, like, they're working with them, and all I keep thinking is they're just trying to appease them. They're just trying to appease the public, you know. Like oh, but- Right ... Facebook cares. They're really doing something. Um, and it's, you know, Facebook is that group- So it's just corporate speak just to- Sure ... just to calm everybody down. According, yeah. From, from my own personal experience and Brian's personal experience, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A- and, and they make money off of that, so where's their incentive? Exactly. You know, their incentive ought to be our government. Um, but we'll get to that. Yeah. Tell us first about AARS. So if I were to, uh, go to Advocating Against Romance Scammers web page- Mm-hmm ... why would I go there and what would I find? So you're gonna find a little bit of everything. Um, you're gonna find education to prevent it. You're gonna find information post-scam. Um, we have a lot of different forms that we've created to help. And I mean, uh, for all different ones. A- about the romance scam for, um, loved ones of what to do, how, you know, what the right things to say. We've got 'em on, uh, pig butchering, the other type of romance investment scam. Uh, we've got celebrity romance. You know, all, all different kinds, um, that you think maybe your loved one is going through. Um, you can download it for free, pull them. We also have a photo library of several photos that are used in romance scams, and I'm telling you, it's probably not even a 16th of the photos that are on there that, you know, 'ca- I definitely don't have the bandwidth for that. Yeah. So, um- You're probably just scratching the surface. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. But a lot of the most prominent faces that you see on there, and I've had so many, uh, victims reach out to me or families that have reached out to me saying, "I saw this picture. This is who my mom or my dad is talking to." And, um, so I mean, it, it, it can help. It can definitely be beneficial. Um, we've got our projects, um, up of what we're doing. Um, I mean, we have a little bit of, really a little bit of everything. I think the one thing that we lack is we do not have a support group, and that's something that- Mm ... I've always wanted, I have always wanted to have. And, I mean, we do have, um, we have our, our Facebook page of all things, right? Facebook, our Instagram. Um, we have a TikTok, you know, where victims can reach out. Um- Unfortunately, scammers can go on there too. I know, um, April from Scammer Stories, she had just posted about that, how scammers are all over- Mm-hmm you know, trying to reach out to victims. Um, but you do your damnedest to try and keep everything safe. Um, they're always- Yeah ... one step ahead of you, so. Yeah. But yeah, so we've got... We do, we have a little, a little bit of everything on there. Um, like I said, I just wish that we had a support group that people can click and just enter in and, and be able to have that. But at this time we don't. Um, you know, maybe hopefully we can get funding one day to do that, because I would like to have one. I would like to have a support group monitored by a licensed therapist. I think that's incredibly important. Mm-hmm. Um, so anyways, we'll see. Yeah, yeah. Um, so what, I mean, do you have to monitor this every day? What does your day-to-day look like, uh, as far as the webpage goes? Yeah. So, um, well, everything will come, if somebody messages, I will get a, a message through my phone. Um, yes, and then that's, you know, then I'll- Okay ... I'll correspond with them that way. Or any messages that come through, you know, any of my social media accounts, I get them, yeah, through my phone, so. Okay. Yeah. So it comes directly to you. It does. So I will put, uh, the website in the show notes, and I know that, uh, from what I heard yesterday, that Brian said there's a, there's kind of a scam advocating for you, Y-O-U, versus advocat- Is it Advocating For- Mm-hmm ... You? Oh, it's the letter U, yeah. Yeah. Advocating- Yeah, yeah, yeah U with the letter u.com is the- Yeah ... the website. So I'll make sure to put that on the, the show notes as well- Great ... so people can reach out. Yes, absolutely. So coming up, uh, in October this year, you've got something called, uh, World Prevention Scam Day. Can you tell us what's- Yes ... going on there? Yeah, World Romance Scam Prevention Day, and it's actually going to be our fourth year of doing it. Oh, wow. Um, yeah, and each year we've been sponsored, um, by Match Group. We've been supported by- several different organizations, and it's not just in the United States, it's all around the world. So it's exciting. People do different things. Um, I think it was last year a support group started, and I believe that was in the Netherlands. Um, and they were support- they were starting it because of the day, and on that day, which I thought was pretty incredible. But, um, yeah, all different things people have done. Um, they've done podcasts, they've done webinars. Um, we did a webinar the first year. Um, the second year we did, uh, the My Voice campaign, and the My Voice campaign was where, um, victims signed on a card what, how they were victimized. They- there's different, you know, all the different financial, emotional, sexual, psychological abuse, you know, they just marked that. Mm-hmm. And what site that they were on, where they were approached. Um, you did not have to put your name, and we did ask that they put their ZIP code only because we sent those cards to their lawmakers, and we want one of the lawmakers to see how many of their constituents were being affected. And so when we did that, the following year, we were able to get some meetings with their lawmakers and go in there and tell them about their constituents, and this is what happened, and here are their cards. Um, and some put their names and some did not. And so I was proud of every single person who filled out a card because- Yeah that's huge. Yeah. That's huge for them, you know? I'm sure. So- That's hard to do, yeah. Very, very hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, the only thing with that was when we went in there, um, to talk about it, it was the lawmakers that we went to talk to were not necessarily the lawmakers on the correct committees, um, where they would be the ones that would create any kind of bills for the safety of platforms. Um, but it still gave them that education because you'd be surprised when you go in there and you sit down with them in the offices and they all relate to the romance scams as the show, the Catfish show that was on- Oh ... MTV. Like, no, it's completely d- yes. I mean, it's- Oh ... definitely a type of, of scam, romance scam. Right, right, right. But what we're talking about is completely different. Let me show you, let me show you the numbers. Let me tell you, you know, how many, how much money came out of your state because of how many victims reported. And according to the FBI, it's usually less than 10% that actually report. Actually, they think it's more closer to 3, but, uh, they- That's what I've heard ... they say it's safe. Yeah. Yeah. So. Do they get it after that? Do you think? Um, some do. You, you get that feeling like once they, when they start asking questions a little bit more in depth, um, then you're like, "Okay, we've, we've got them." You know, they seem pretty interested, which is great because then- Yeah ... they can go and they talk to their fellow, um, uh, office people, uh, in, in, in the different offices, the different lawmakers offices and stuff, and say, "Hey, can we work together to build something?" 'Cause that's what they like to do. They like to work together, you know, especially on the different aisles, um, because it's a bipartisan issue. Yeah. And affects everybody, right? So, so yeah, some of them do get it. Some of them, some of them, some of them just need to be, uh, be there to meet with constituents because I know that they probably have to meet some sort of quota saying, you know- Mm-hmm ... "We've met with these people about these projects." But a lot of them, and especially the ones that aren't in the right committees, don't move forward with anything because it's not in their appropriate committee, but they can talk to the others that are, which is, which is good. So then the following year, that's when we met with, um, with more of the lawmakers that have to do with the, the appropriate committees and, um, so... A- and I mean, there's things happening out there. There are new laws. There are bills that are coming out. We just haven't seen anything really be signed into law yet, unfortunately, for the safety of the platforms. Yeah. And talk to me about, um, there's a Section 230. Can you tell me, um, tell all of us what that is and, and what's happening to try and update that? So it's called the Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act, and it was created back in, let me think, 2000 and... I know it's almost- 30 years ago ... I was gonna say it's almost 30 years old. I do know that. So- Yeah ... um, and it was, it was just to keep every single person from going on social media and suing for any little thing that was- Mm-hmm posted online, suing the companies. They wanted to make sure that social media companies could flourish, and they can't if they're constantly working on, you know, being sued and, uh, uh, you know, lawsuit piles and stuff like that. Dreams. So this law was to protect them, that any- whatever a third party posts is not the social media company's responsibility. All the social media company is is a billboard, and if I'm the person that tacks on my business card on that billboard, that's my responsibility. That's not the billboard's responsibility. So that was how it was supposed to be. Um, they had, I... Because social media was so new- Mm-hmm ... I don't think they realized that how much was going to be done online crime-wise, and how, how people were going to use this as their hub for criminal activity. So, and I believe, I'm sorry, I think it was '96 is when it was, when it was created. So that would be 30 years ago, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and so it's only been, um, it's only been amended one time, and that was for human trafficking for children. Um, yeah. And, and that was- Any human trafficking ... that was back in 2018. So- Wow ... almost 10 years ago. Yeah So and to this day, that's why so many lawsuits are thrown out is because people go in there, they try and sue the social media company for maybe a scammer coming in trying to talk to them, getting all of their information, and they're not responsible 'cause this law is in place saying that. So, and, and I agree. I think, you know, I- they need to be responsible of course for part of it. I'm not saying all of it. Right. But when you look around at every, every scam that's completed on social media, it starts from a social media company. So it's not- Right ... you know? Right. Yeah, and mine was on LinkedIn. Who knew- Right ... that LinkedIn was not safe? Yeah. I certainly didn't, obviously, or, or I would've been more careful. But I had no idea. And- Yeah ... and that they're coming out of like, uh, Words With Friends and- Yes ... I mean, basically any place that's got a chat- A chat ... in it, right? Exactly, yes. Exactly, yep. They're just like cockroaches coming out in the dark, you know? They really are. It's- It's like when are, when are these guys gonna go away? Well, they're not. Mm-hmm. They're, they're, they're still getting tons of money, you know, and it's... A lot of them are these people that say, "It will never happen to me," and that's when you let your guard down, you know? Yeah. You, you don't have your walls up. You got them down because you don't need to, you know, educate yourself on that because you already know everything, well you don't. And they, like I said, they are one step ahead of all of us, so- Yeah ... I hate to say that don't trust anybody or anything. I hate that we're to that point, but you really do. And, um, yeah, I- I... There's no harm in asking five million questions to, to make sure that, you know, something is, is proven and- Yeah ... whatever you need to do. You know, it's unfortunate, but yeah, that's how it is. But I, I think rather than trust and verify, it's be skeptical and verify and, and give trust when it's earned. Right. We, we can no longer just automatically give trust, you know? You're exactly right, yes. And so if somebody's reaching out to you that you have no association with beforehand, they're either a scammer or they're somebody's who's desperate. I don't think there's any other option Right. And so- And I really, I- You don't wanna be- I'm sure there are people like that, but it's mostly- You don't wanna be associated with either one of those people, so don't even respond. Right. You know? It's- Not worth your time. No. Not, absolutely not. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I, I had no idea. A- and, and I think the LinkedIn thing is so insidious, and it still makes me angry that they allow that. I, I have been- Sure ... hit, as I look back and, and before I knew what these scams were, I've been hit, like, five times with, um, with scammers that I didn't understand were scammers, but they never got off the ground for one reason or another, you know? Yeah. So. I get a lot of investment, um- Do you? ... scams on there. Yes. Yes, I do. Um, and I know that a lot of people use AI photos, but that's one of my first, um, my first things, like, "Okay, they're using an AI photo, so let's click in to see what they have to say." And it is, it's a lot of investment stuff, and I, I, I just don't move forward with it. I don't even ask them any questions. Um- Yeah Do you respond to them? No. Okay. Definitely, I do not. No. Because they don't know if they're... I mean, how are they trying to reach you? Is it email or text, or? It's through LinkedIn. They'll, they'll send me a message- Oh, it's through LinkedIn ... through LinkedIn, yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. I had one of those recently, and yeah, it was weird, and that didn't go far at all. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Um, yeah. Oh, you also have a connection with Operation Shamrock, right? I do, yes. Tell me about that. I love my aunt. So, well, you know, me and... I, I reached out to Erin when I saw some of the stuff that she was kind of working on, and that's when she was still working, um, as a prosecutor for- Hmm for the n- Northern California, Santa Clara area. And you know, I reached out. I'm like, "Hey, this is so great. Let's talk about this," because she was looking at the, the pig butchering, which was, you know, the investment romance scams, and that wasn't my niche at all. So I wanted to learn about that. I had no idea about crypto, how it worked, and you know, of course, she's the guru in it. So- Mm-hmm ... um, we, we built a relationship, started working together. She was talking about Operation Shamrock. Um, I joined her group as a, um, as a co-lead for their victims, their victims area. Um, and the only thing I had to stop working with her, um, about six months in, is because I just had so much on my plate with my advocacy, and I felt terrible because, you know, I wanted to see this all the way through, you know, with everything, and help build it, build it for her, and you know, just work- Yeah together with her and, um, as part of her, in her victim section. And um, I just, I had to step back just 'cause it was just too much. And, um, no, to this day, we're, we're good friends. She's amazing. I mean, she does amazing- Yeah ... work. So, um, no, I just, I love Erin. I mean, there's only so many hours in a day. There is. You know? You're right. Yes. You still have a, a day job now? I do. Oh yeah, I still work at the hospital. It's a full-time job- So, yeah ... and I, I do the advocacy in the morning. I do a lot of my, um, my calls and stuff before I go to work in the morning. Um, I'll do stuff on my lunch break. I'll take my computer to work and do some stuff. And then, you know, I'm on it a lot of times after work. So I- Yeah ... what I'm trying to learn that if, when I take a vacation, to take a vacation, but I'm not gonna ignore my messages when they come through if a victim needs to speak to me. Yeah. Um, just, I'm just not. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I, I actually went on a, a vacation for the first time in a long time, just, just a road trip down to California with my sister to go visit my cousins and stuff. But it was... You realize that you really need it. You don't, you know, it's not just a nicety- Yeah ... but you need to get away from this stuff because it's always, it's so heavy. It's so- It's very heavy. Mm-hmm. It is very heavy. Yeah. And you know, when, when a victim reaches out to you, they tell you the story like you've never heard it before. And as an advocate, you have to respond kind of like... I mean, you, you respond that you're the professional and you know what they're talking about, you know what's going on. Yeah. But you cannot be like, "Oh yeah, I've heard that before," or, you know- Oh ... "This is nothing new," or, because it's all new to them, you know? This is, it's all fresh for them and, and so- Mm ... I think that's, um, that's kinda heavy on me is because you, you see it day in and day out, and nothing's being done, you know? Yeah. We can all do as much education stuff as we can, but we need laws in place, um, that's going to help prevent this, and that's going to make these companies somewhat liable so then they'll step back and be like, "Oh, we need to do something about this or they're gonna kill us in our pocketbook," 'cause that's what they think of is what's in their- Oh, yeah what's in their wallet. Absolutely. Yeah. That's actually why they won't do anything now is because it's- Yeah ... gonna hurt them in their pocketbook. Yes. So- And I, I know Brian had told the story about when we went into the meeting and, um, and the guy took us into the office and he put his keys on the table, and there was a Facebook key thing. And I look at Brian and we're like, "Yeah, we're not getting anywhere with this office," you know? Did you guys ask him about the key thing? No, and you know, I, I wish I did. "Oh, look like you're a Facebook fan, you know? Let me tell you something," is what I should have said, but I- ... did not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That wa- And that was, like, one of our first, that was one of our first meetings. I, it might have been the first- Oh ... time we ever went to DC too, was during then because- So you're trying to put your best foot forward and not, uh, irritate them. Ruffle the feathers, yeah. Yet. The ruffle the- Yet, yeah ... yeah. At this point, I don't know if I care about not ruffling their feathers. No. Not that, not that anybody listens anyway. Not anymore. You know? No, no. Not anymore. We don't care. Um. You did something for the UN as well. Can you talk about that? I did, yes. They asked to, asked me, and that was a couple of years ago, they asked for me to, um, to just speak on behalf of our advocacy, and I actually was kinda, I, I spoke for victims. Um, I was kind of shocked that I was the only one from the United States that was on that. They had people in person, and they had people on the call, and unfortunately I could not go. Mm. Um, I, I just didn't have the time to take off at work- Yeah ... and so I had to do it, and there were several of us that had to do it via, um- Video phone. Yeah, video. Thank you. And, um, but I- I, it's something that I'll never forget. I, I thought it was truly incredible to be a speaker with all of these amazing people. I, if I remember right, I was the only Transfraud's the only advocacy. There might've been one other advocacy from a different country. Um, but everyone else worked within the government of their country. So- Hmm ... it was pretty fascinating. I- Wow. Yeah, I, I truly enjoyed it. And I get, um, invited now to go to different things or listen in on different things, which is nice. Um, so it's nice to get your foot in the door so people can hear your voice and know what you're doing and so- Yeah ... and what came out of that was a, a big paper on, on fraud, um, in regards to social media companies. So pretty fantastic. Well, I'm looking forward to the day when we do more than just create a report. I mean- Yeah. No ... not that that's a bad thing. I mean- Nope. I agree ... baby steps, right? One- Well, that's what I was thinking too. I was like, you know, wow, the UN is bringing- Yeah ... everybody together 'cause they recognize this problem. Yeah. And so many other country... And that was the other thing too, like you got to listen to what the other countries were doing, um, some of the processes that they had, and I'm like, "This is incredible. This is what the United States needs. Where the hell are our people?" Right. You know? Right. Or where's a representative? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe other people were invited. I don't know. Um, but they needed to be on that call. They needed to be listening to that or, you know. So, um, yeah, we have c- other countries that are, are f- far ahead of us security-wise and for victims, um, in regards to help, so. Yeah, and Australia and UK being- Yep probably the top two, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And then here's the United States lagging. Hmm. Yes. What a superpower we are. Right? Exactly. I mean, is it money talking? Yeah. Un- unless there's money involved, it's kinda like you can't get anywhere. Yeah. Right. So. Right. But, but if we were strong enough to, uh, to bring it down to the voter level, you know? I- if, if you don't protect your constituents nationwide, then why should you even be in office? Right. Yeah. So. And we, we also have to start working with the way that their constituents also think, you know? A lot of them, a lot of people still think that because you were scammed, you know, you had a huge part in that, you know? Mm-hmm. And that's part your fault. Um, people are just incredibly uneducated in how these scams work. And like, you know, when we do go to our meetings and we do talk to them, and this is how it happens, and here's the numbers, and, you know, they are pretty like, "Wow, you know, we had no idea this is how in-depth that the scams can go," you know? Yeah. Mentally and- Yeah ... um, April goes in there from Scammer Stories, and she tells a story about her mom and how everything happened and how they keep you... These scammers work around the clock 'cause it's not just one person talking to you, you know? Oh, yeah. It's usually a group. Um, and so they work you around the clock, you know, to Make you to where sometimes you're just so tired you cannot make a sound decision or a clear, you know, a clear decision. And- Yeah ... uh, it's just all part of their tactics that they do, and people just don't realize, you know- Yeah ... you know, how much is involved in getting somebody to send some money. Even on LinkedIn today, there was somebody that I replied to that was saying, "Well, you know, the, the victims are, they're all about, um, someone to blame, except they're not accepting blame themselves," and I'm just kind of going, "You like to fight fraud, um, really?" Because I said, that's all the victims do is blame themselves for a long- Right ... time. Yeah. And then you start looking a little more outward and seeing, how did this happen? Why did this happen? Well, here's what's gone on with Meta. Mm-hmm. Um, here's what's gone on with LinkedIn, and, or, or, you know, any site. It doesn't matter. I mean, there's so many ways to get scammed that people are just unsuspecting of that. Right. And we're all wired to trust, you know? Right. I mean, the restaurant owner trusts that you're gonna pay them after you get the meal. Sure. If you go buy something on the website, you trust that that product is going to come to your home. So we trust all day, every day, but we just have to learn how to be more skeptical with things that we didn't request. Right. Yeah- Yeah ... because you, you really don't think that people can just be so evil- No ... like they are, that people can actually do... And it, you know, especially, I mean, people who get scammed, and then you've got the scammers that come back and try and re-scam you saying that, that they're gonna get you your money back. And I'm just like- Yeah ... how can you be so sick to do something like that to somebody? Mm-hmm. Like, that to me is sick. And I understand that- And maybe I should just have a, maybe a kinder heart, but You know, that people are destitute in other countries, and they try and do whatever they can to feed their family or whatever. Yes. But you know- Yes ... there's a right way to do things, and there's a wrong way to do things. And to do something like that to somebody, to cause such harm, they're causing such harm. And it's not like they don't know what they're doing, because they take classes on this stuff. You know, they're trained to do this. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they, they follow scri- given a, a bible- There's textbooks ... to, yes. Yeah. Exactly. So I just, it's very hard for me to have a kinder heart like that, you know, to think so. Well, I mean, but then you've got the human trafficking part of it, too. Oh, yeah. And I just did a couple of episodes with, uh, w- with a couple of Africans that were trafficked into, um, scamming Americans, and it just broke my heart. I mean, these people, they're unsuspecting when they're picked up. They go, and they're imprisoned, basically, and tortured if they don't do what they're told to do. And if they're lucky enough to escape and get back home, then they're ostracized from their friends and family because anybody leaving the country to go work is expected to bring something back. Back, right. And they come back destitute with nothing, and so nobody wants to talk to them. And it's just like, it's like they're a throwaway. Right. And that's so wrong. So I do have that feeling of empathy for them. Yes. But at the same time, I'm not the one they need to be talking to because somebody just stole all my money. Right. Right. Yeah. A- I mean, and- You know? ... you know, they've got their bosses that- Yeah ... that's your, that's your next- And they're the people that brutal. You need to... Yes, exactly. It was brutal. Oh, yeah, and, and these- Those victims that you're speaking of are victims. They are victims- Oh, yeah ... of this crime as well, you know? And it's, it's awful that they're, they're put to do something like that, and they are now going to have to live with the rest of their life thinking, "I harmed this person," because they do know they harmed that person. Mm-hmm. So it is, it's a whole- Yeah ... that's a whole different, yeah- Type of victim ... type of scam and ty- yeah, type of, um- So there's, there's the kind that I am that had their money stolen. There's the kind that they are that, you know, they had to do that to survive. Then there's the- Right ... kind like April. She was a victim because she didn't have a choice. Y- you love your mother. You're trying- Right ... to help your mother. There was nothing that she could do. She was trying, but she- Sure ... she couldn't pull her out of it. Right. And then you've got the victims like Brian. Yep. So there's four types actually. It's- Yeah ... nobody wins except the people at the top of that heap who are perpetrating this crime. Right. And that's the people- And where- ... we need to find. Absolutely. We need to find them, and we, we need to disrupt where they're holding their business, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... yeah. Uh, you know, it's just- Yeah ... how it's definitely- I know. We need to go in- ... a death more here ... Cambodia and level those build... No, we don't even have to do that. All we have to do is pull the plug on their internet. Right. Um, right? Mm-hmm. And who's willing to do that? Well, nobody so far. Right. All our big- No ... companies are here in the United States, and they're bringing in a ton of money for our, for our country. But eventually- But they- ... it's gonna get to the point, as a note, where the regular people don't have any money. If we don't have any money to put towards their bank account, then they're gonna implode as well. I mean- Right ... we're all going downhill. It's just how fast. You're very right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, the other, the scams that I'm used to dealing with that happen or have started more on the, uh, in West Africa, um, those, I mean Millions and millions went out every year towards those. But the scammers through the Southeast Asia scams with the, um, with the pig butchering scams, um, that number is astronomical compared to the other scams- Yeah that you see from the West Africa, and which has opened a lot of eyes. And I can just... You know, like, like when we were talking about Erin, she's able to get out there and she's able to go talk to those lawmakers too, and, you know, that's just one of the things that I hope for is that I- they've been listening to her, which is fantastic, and I know that it's the numbers unfortunately that they're listening to. It's not- Sure ... victim stories. I mean, they'll listen to the victim stories, but it's those numbers that they, that they- Yeah ... need to see and, um- The, the that's how much money is leaving the US economy every year. Right, right. And I hear it's in, it, it could be in the trillions at this point. Mm-hmm. Oh, it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because just what we're seeing through IC3 is billions, and how, you know, and they're saying, what? Just, you know, less than 10% are actually reporting. Right, right. So, yeah. It has to be trillions. And where is that money going? And yes, so. They're probably richer than Musk now, you know? Mm-hmm. Right. It's possible. It's very possible. Sure. Sure. Yep. Well, Kathy, I, I know that you've probably got other things to do today than to talk to me, although I could talk to you all day. I love talking to you. I love talking to you. So I will let you go, but I really appreciate you being on this podcast. Tell Brian and April I said hey, and, um, you guys take care, and hopefully we can, you know, meet up one of these days. Yes. I just, let me throw out there too that in October to celebrate this year, 'cause I know we were talking about it, for October 3rd- Oh, uh-huh ... um, I'm joining with, um, a few other people. We've got, um, April Debelquinary and Kathy Wilson, um, and we're getting together and we're doing this conference. It's called the United Against Deception Conference. Mm. And we're bringing together all entities from advocates to law enforcement, mental health, um, banks, all together in the name of victims so we can all work under one umbrella hopefully and- Oh, wow ... get all of the correct information to victims, and so they're not led down some of the wrong paths that some have been led down, and that we can have the same wording and be compassionate and, especially with our law enforcement to our victims. And so we're hoping that some big things are going to come out of this symposium and, you know. Where is that gonna be held at? Um, that's gonna be in Kansas City. Uh, Kansas City, Missouri. And, um, that's October 1st and 2nd, and it's held at their police academy there. So- Oh, that's great ... hopefully it's gonna be fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be sure and watch for that. That sounds interesting. Yes. Absolutely. So. So thank you so much my friend for inviting me on here, and- Oh, you betcha ... you know, it's been a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks, Kathy. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye.