You Can Call Me, Karen
You Can Call Me Karen is caught in the middle—too young for Gen X, too tired for Gen Z. Hosted by Manni, Steph, and Karen, three sharp-tongued friends raised on dial-up tones and Dawson’s Creek, the show unpacks the pop culture that shaped the ‘90s and early 2000s. With wit and candor, they dissect the contradictions of coming of age in that era, never afraid to channel their inner Karen if it means saying the quiet parts out loud. No advice, just real talk: a bold, funny, side-eye-laced ride through nostalgia, modern womanhood, and the messiness in between.
You Can Call Me, Karen
The Hollow Hashtag Syndrome
In this episode, we delve into the concept of performative allyship, exploring its implications and the fine line between genuine activism and superficial gestures. We discuss the impact of social media on activism, particularly during significant events like the Black Lives Matter movement, and how performative actions can sometimes overshadow meaningful change. The conversation also touches on the role of institutions in promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion, and the challenges faced in navigating allyship in a complex social landscape. Ultimately, we emphasize the importance of genuine engagement and the need for individuals to reflect on their actions and intentions in the fight against systemic racism.
References:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/discover/articles/ibram-x-kendi-definition-of-antiracist
https://www.instagram.com/p/DC0DOXbxIOm/?igsh=MTVkeGM0Z2d1YTUzaQ==
https://www.instagram.com/p/DJq_LOptd10/?img_index=4&igsh=MTNnZnBnZmI5ZXRqMQ==
https://www.instagram.com/p/CA9C8Xzhzk7/?igsh=cWU4dHdhY29heGIw
Keywords: performative allyship, social media activism, allyship, systemic racism, community engagement, diversity, equity, inclusion, activism, social justice, cultural awareness
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Black squares, hashtags, blue bracelets and rainbow everything. While these gestures are a way to share what someone might believe in regards to marginalized communities, it requires little effort and is often not the crux for real change. If it stops at a hashtag or t-shirt, it is performative allyship. Since 2020, performative allyship has had a name and definition and it isn't sweet, but these shallow attempts at activism still persist. Why? What draws us into these gestures? What's the harm in a symbol of your beliefs? Should we condemn those who don a blue bracelet after the 2024 election or could these small acts be a spark that could lead to action and, ultimately, real, ultimately to real change. Welcome to the you Can Call Me Karen podcast. Hello and welcome. This is Steph, and I am joined by my fabulous co-host, manny Hi.
Speaker 3:Hi At first I thought your mic wasn't on.
Speaker 1:She switched it up on us. I switched it up.
Speaker 2:I'm just being boring to death.
Speaker 3:I feel like you're calling us boring.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're not boring your?
Speaker 1:intros are boring, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I kind of blacked out a little bit where are? We, what are we doing right now?
Speaker 3:oh, manny, that's, me hey, oh, manny, hey and of course we have Karen, hey.
Speaker 1:So this week we will be discussing performative allyship. Is it harmful or could it be a spark, or could it be both? But before we get started we have to know.
Speaker 3:Oh, I went with. I want to know what turns you on. That was the wrong tune entirely.
Speaker 2:It wasn't. The melody was actually All right.
Speaker 1:It was the voice that's that hurts.
Speaker 2:That hurts wait what she out was that on that mixtape that linda made for you guys.
Speaker 3:No, but god, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna ask her for the list, and I'm gonna get that back to you because it's fire. I mean mean, I'm biased. It was like the soundtrack to my childhood.
Speaker 1:So who's? Got a Karen story queued up for us.
Speaker 3:Manny, you want to go first?
Speaker 2:Are you just making sure I'm here, Because again I blacked out. I was like what was my favorite song of the 90s. I was like there's a lot of activity happening in my noggin right now. Okay, We've been off for too long. I like forget that, like focus my Karen story. That's where we are in the programming.
Speaker 3:It is. That's where we are.
Speaker 2:So my Karen story, karen of the week is one of millie's friends, little sweet gg um well, I mean, because I do, I love this kid so much. She, millie, has started to have like not just neighbor friends come over, but like other friends from school to come over. And I love Gigi, she is so spunky and she is so funny and she calls me Manika and I was like exactly yes, yes, steph, you can laugh. I was like when she first did it I was like what in the caucasity is this?
Speaker 3:I am here for this.
Speaker 2:I love it where do you get the right to call me by my first name?
Speaker 2:you know, and then she comes over. She's over often, and then one time she came over and called me mrs rosa and I was like, well, wait, I kind of miss monica, you know. So, in the spirit of performative ally shit, I am in a conundrum because I am like I went through this thing where it was like, wait, I went through everything. Okay, first of all, I don't have my own, my family name anymore, because I have since given that over to the United States government. Um, and I'm like, wait, how cool is it that these young kids community, they know now how important it is to pronounce someone's name correctly. And I was like, actually, I don't think I mind it. You know like I don't. I don't think that I mind her calling me that, because it's so cute when it comes out of her little mouth.
Speaker 2:She says it correctly. Every she enunciates it really like clear, Well, and it's adorable and um, I just I'm like I don't think I mind that she's doing this. And then I started to think when did that start to become like, do I really care about this rule of respect for saying calling me missus, and I just don't know. I don't know like, who's the Karen here, right?
Speaker 2:like, is it the um, patriarchy, for making me missus, and, and, and, and. Is it, you know, the older generation, is it boomers, for putting this pressure on having to be above? You know what I mean, and and so I was like where did that kind of ache? Or like I'm Mrs.
Speaker 3:Rose up to to you, you know I feel like we maybe have talked about this before we have, but I grew up in a household where, like adults were not Mr and Mrs. Like I called my best friend's mom Barb which was her name, you know and like it wasn't even something. My parents didn't require it. They never required any chilled like any of our friends or anything in the household to call them mr or mrs, and I cringed when the occasional friend came over and was like mrs horowitz.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, it's not her name. She's not mrs horowitz, so old and so it was.
Speaker 3:It was like this came up for me at the time where our friends started having kids and they were talking about you know what they wanted their kids to call us, or something like that, and it was either like auntie and uncle or mister and missus. And I'm like I don't like those options. I mean aunt, auntie is fine, but for the friends that we're not that close with, I don't want to be called Mrs, I don't like that.
Speaker 3:It's just what you know, it's what's familiar to you, that feels. So I'm glad that you're coming around to liking that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I really don't mind it and, like I said, it's like you know, I am like one of two black women in this area and the other black women's names are not. You know, monika, they're. You know a little bit, I don't, I don't know what simpler is, not like the right word, but you know, like they're not, they're more well known.
Speaker 2:Yeah, more well known, yeah, more well known. And so you know, culturally I would like to be, you know, I would like that to be reflected too, because I'm not the only mrs rosa, you know, and we're talking about lineage as well, and so it's like culturally, like how do I begin to teach young people, um, if not giving them access to saying my name correctly?
Speaker 1:yeah, what about miss manika?
Speaker 2:stuff won't let it go but am I miss manika or am I mrs manika um?
Speaker 1:I like we go by our first names, like we go by our first names at the dance studio, but it's like Miss Stephanie and I'm like preschool teachers, I think, or Miss so and so.
Speaker 2:But I don't know. Yeah, we have Miss.
Speaker 1:Jen, we do Miss Jen, yeah, yeah, and so it's just a thought, and so it's just a thought?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just a thought. Put some respect on my motherfucking name. You can say it.
Speaker 1:Manika, oh, you better add a miss before, because I am older.
Speaker 3:I'm older than a wiser. You said that so quiet, steph. I'm going to have to turn up your mic for that part, so people can hear.
Speaker 1:I was saying it with a whisper, it's just a thought yeah, so that's my Karen.
Speaker 2:So who do we think is the Karen in that situation?
Speaker 3:You, steph would disagree.
Speaker 1:I honestly don't. It's all perspective. You know, I think it is, but I I'm with you so you're a Karen too, I'm a Karen too in this situation because it's like it sounds like you want it both ways no, I honestly like I'm okay with being called Monika right now it just was that initial like jerk yeah.
Speaker 2:You Cool GG. You don't come up in my house. Call me by my first name Impression.
Speaker 3:What was that that you were just doing?
Speaker 2:I was doing black mom.
Speaker 3:No, but it's some. It's forever. I need our listeners to chime in on this one, but, like God, that just made me think of a very specific person in a very specific movie. I can't think what it is. Okay, I've got some chads for you.
Speaker 2:Oh, yay, I love a chad.
Speaker 3:Yay, I still have anxiety about this. So, um, I, my company, has um Cubs tickets, like you know, like um season tickets. Gosh, we're starting on a strong note this morning. Um, so I was able to get there's like four of them. I was able to get them and bring three of my colleagues to a game and they hadn't been to, like they hadn't been to these seats before or whatever, and they're, they're like pretty nice. I mean they're. You know, I was really excited about taking them and treating them to a nice evening. So we, I was like hyping it up. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't wait. You know like this is really fun, these are good seats and we're going to have so much fun. We get there, we sit down. We got there like um halfway through the first inning, so we were a couple minutes late. It was zero to zero. Yeah, it wasn't even halfway through the first inning. We were like two outs in right.
Speaker 1:So, like the other team was up and whatever, anyways, um, they kick you out four. Sorry, did they?
Speaker 3:kick you out. Yeah, we got kicked out instantly. No, um, these four chads were sitting behind us. Um, I am an old lady now, so everybody under the age of 25 looks 14 to me, so keep this in mind. But but they, I felt like I couldn't. I couldn't be certain they were old enough to be drinking like I was. You know, it was like they're probably 21, but like they could, they could be 20, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So they were all here we go police in the youngins.
Speaker 3:They were already wasted. Um, oh, here we go, police and the youngins, they were already wasted. It was like, as I mentioned, the third out was happening in the top of the first innings Again, zero to zero, no action yet and the pitcher like throws from our vantage point what looked like a strike. But if you know anything about baseball, you have to be behind the plate because you can't tell if it's inside or outside. And the guys, the chads behind us were like so loud I was like that is ninth inning energy and this is. This is neither the time nor the place. Uh, oh, I should have said it was called a ball. Anyways, it doesn't matter, because it was the first inning and nobody gave a shit yet.
Speaker 3:So, and it's, it was like the start of May, like the baseball season doesn't even matter until like August. So immediately the usher guy comes over and he's like you guys can't be yelling that like there's families and children here, you need to take it down. And they're like okay, I'm sorry. And then screaming, like screaming constantly, that we couldn't have a conversation. I couldn't hear the person sitting right next to me because these guys were just screaming constantly loud. Uh, we, we kind of at one point, uh, one of the guys that I was with kind of like turned around to look at them and be like what, what is, what is happening right now, you know. And then they started like pestering us, so, like you know, making comments, or like the one guy was like flicking off at the back of the head of the guy that I was with.
Speaker 3:Like childish shit. The um it was. It was just constant. And so the usher came a couple of times and then we walked to like go get food or something, and as we were walking past the usher, the one guy that I was with, um, told him like listen, these, these guys are like I can't even have a conversation with the person next to me. Oh, and I should mention this was a Tuesday evening, like. This was not Saturday. You know, this is not we're getting ready for the weekend. It was like Tuesday at six, 30 or something like that.
Speaker 3:It was so obnoxious. There was one point where the security guard guy came over and took one of the kids away and they were like what's happening? Are they going to kick him out? And then he like he was like we'll see, like, and then he brought him back at like 10 minutes later and I'm like just kick them out. Yeah, they are making everyone's experience. Oh, they, sorry there's so many little bits about this night. They um had like a tub of cheese for like nachos and knocked it over the thing so that it would spill on me.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 3:Thankfully it didn't because I was wearing new shoes, and I would have. I would have lost my shit. But yeah, like they were, I don't know what their fucking deal was. I told Bob about this and Bob was like this is this generation that thinks that they can do whatever they want. Generations. Anyways, it was awful.
Speaker 2:It was probably like the first time, like they had just turned 21. It was probably like the first time that they were just turned 21. It was probably like the first time that they were able to go to a baseball game without their mommy and they were like we're gonna act a fool because we don't have chaperones, and they were just.
Speaker 3:It was seriously so bad it was. I felt so bad. I was like this was supposed to be such a nice like it was. It was, um, I got these seats and we like raffled them off for, like this group, uh, that I work a lot with, and so it was supposed to be like a reward. You know what I mean. And then that happened and, oh, I was so bummed but eventually we moved. Like the usher was like these, this row is wide open, just move over here, here, like don't you know whatever. In hindsight, I wish I had been like or you could kick them out.
Speaker 3:They're literally they are the definition of why you kick people out. So you continuing to come over and say don't do that and then not doing anything about it is actually reinforcing their behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:But there's no consequences for these freaking kids.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it just sounded like a boomer. You kind of did. But you are correct that like just constantly going up and saying don't do that, don't do that, and not actually having a consequence for them is only going to make them come back to the game and behave the same way yeah, it was awful. I felt so bad so yeah, that's bad behavior, very entitled unaware of the surroundings and people around you, that this is like an experience for everyone yeah, it's just so selfish.
Speaker 3:I wanted to be such a mom in that moment and turn around and be like I hope one day you're embarrassed about this, but I don't think they would have heard you but that would have been good for you to say too, for you to be like.
Speaker 3:I told these boys you could tell Maxwell my name is Karen and I believe one day you're going to be embarrassed about this my name is Karen and I believe one day you're going to be embarrassed about this my name is Karen and I have a podcast and you are.
Speaker 2:This It'll definitely be featured on it. Ads yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow. Well, thank you for sharing. Ladies, those are our Karenns of the week. Alright, so we're gonna jump right in. I have to admit, when I think of performative allyship, I think of my own transgression, similarly to the author of an article that I linked. It's an article from MSNBC. The author feels the same way I do. I proudly participated in the hashtag Blackout Tuesday in June of 2020 in protest of police brutality after the murder of George Floyd. So, before I go on, did either of you put a black tile on your Instagram in 2020?
Speaker 2:I did not, and I actually did post about my. I posted about how the black tile wasn't allyship. I have a post that exists on my grid from that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't think I post anything, so I'm not really a good gauge for that.
Speaker 1:Well, I did.
Speaker 2:We all make mistakes.
Speaker 1:Listen. So I have to say I was proud to turn my profile black, and even prouder and relieved to see so many of my friends doing the same. Because I was definitely like scrolling, like I better see some black tiles, so is that why you have like secret hatred for me. Yeah, I was like where you at.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's secret.
Speaker 3:Hey, for me or yeah, I was like where you at.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's secret. She was projecting, don't worry. So by by the afternoon. So that morning I was like ha, click, boom, watching my whole profile turn black and I was like, yes, I have, I'm friends with the right people, I'm doing the right thing black. And I was like, yes, I'm friends with the right people, I'm doing the right thing and this is, I feel good, and fuck the police. No, I'm just kidding. Well, but by the afternoon it became clear that something wasn't right. Um, I came across a post from Brittany Packnett, cunningham, um, and this post is linked in the article. Um, she is my favorite, favorite, favorite lady. I admire her so much, I read almost anything she writes and I love her so much. Um, she, um, she asked a few reflective questions about the black tiles. Um, she started with uh, who asked you to do this? Which organization was behind the call to black out your profile? What was the goal?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what are the outcomes there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because what was happening was people weren't just using the hashtag Blackout Tuesday, they also added the hashtag Black Lives Matter. So what ultimately happened was, if you search the hashtag Black Lives Matter, all you were seeing was black. So what happens is that ultimately silenced the cause. And so, lo and behold, I did a search for the hashtag and a sea of black appeared. So what was gone were all of the images, all of the messaging, all of the call to action was gone and cause so many people tag black lives matter.
Speaker 1:And so the hard work of the activists had been blacked out and um, and so she and many other activists were very actively asking people to take the post down, remove the black lives matters hashtag and um, within a few days, if you search the hashtag Black Lives Matter, it did return to the images that should have been attached.
Speaker 1:But, you know, several days of effort was erased, all because everybody you know jumped on this bandwagon, because everybody you know jumped on this bandwagon. So I share that story, just to say I think that we all can think of a time when our actions could be deemed performative. So when I bring this topic up, I'm not coming from a place of judgment, just that you know there is this urge to, you know, express some sort of opinion, though I do want to point out that there is one performative act that I think we can all agree should be judged, and that is Nancy Pelosi and her friends wearing the kids' take off. Can we all agree that that's not the kids' take off, and I hope that they are forever ashamed and embarrassed, um, by what they did there because that was unacceptable.
Speaker 3:Um, I literally just had to go back to my instagram and look to that to confirm that I I didn't do yeah I didn't do the black lives matter.
Speaker 2:Yes, can I share.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say yes, please, okay, so um, here, here's, here's what I wrote.
Speaker 2:I said, since white people w-i-p-i-p-o white people.
Speaker 2:I love that um decided to take the day off and listen. I would like to share a brief example of what people in the black community mean when we talk about systemic and institutionalized racism. Are you ready? Stay focused. I woke up this morning and got online to figure out how to register myself to vote in the new town. I just moved to Right on the front page. They have the requirements to being eligible to vote. To vote See, pick one.
Speaker 2:Do you see it? Now? One of the restrictions? Yes, incarceration.
Speaker 2:At the same time I was doing this, I was listening to Trump's speech to governors. For those of you who missed it, I'll give you the SparkNotes version of a lesson we all learned in US history class in 11th grade and how this is all connected. It's subtle, but it's there in his final two minutes when he tells governors to dominate the protesters that, yes, that is a systemic approach to suppressing the black vote. Yes, right there. The US randomly selects jurors from a pool of citizens who hold voter registration cards. Voter registration gives us the power to stand on juries to convict officers like the ones who killed George Floyd. Without this access, we don't even stand a chance to peacefully see justice play out. Without this voter registration card. We have no power to fire the leaders who advocate for laws to keep this system functioning. Need a little more history in how the laws of this system silence our voice. See pick four.
Speaker 2:In some countries in the us, they will count people who are incarcerated towards their total population vote count. Yes, that's right. A modern, modern day, three-fifths compromise kind of shit happening right under our very noses. Is this system starting to make more sense to you now? There is more to this system? See pick five, but it's about time you figure it out yourself. You want to be an ally. Bail out these protesters. Follow black accounts and pay for the businesses to educate you and, for fuck's sake, vote. We are 154 days away from november, when all the bars, restaurants, sports and entertainment come back in the fall. Do not forget this promise you made to me and the black community. And if you do well, see pick four. And, I'm sorry, pick six. And pick six is it says for the record this is the shit that I'm willing to end lifelong friendships over, disrespectfully at that.
Speaker 1:Disrespectfully.
Speaker 3:Love that. I am jotting down a note that we will link your Instagram profile here because. I think everyone who's listening probably wants to take a look at some of those pics and stuff that you were referencing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just screenshots and stuff and I was very hesitant to post that but it actually. It has 55 comments which like for me as a walled citizen and my personal account, and I remember one of our friends, kp, actually reaching out to me and saying can you make your account public, just so people can see this post, so I can share it with some of my friends. So yeah, the the performative element of it is like don't just do it because it's a trend. Understand what is required of you in this work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and I definitely, you know, turned a sharp quarter from there and was pretty vocal on social media through 2020 and created a highlight reel with all sorts of all sorts of messaging, and it caused me to end up engaging in lots of conversations, lots of private messages.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that. I learned a lot about that and just I became more intentional about if I'm going to post it. I it's going to be researched and it's going to be for a reason. It's going to be linked to um, the activists who are doing the work, um and I, you know, definitely learned a lot from just posting the black tile. But I think you know that day, or what you know, I think there were days before, like, because it was like pre-planned, you know, um, and it was definitely misconstrued, like it wasn't even supposed to be what it ended up being. I think it was started in the music industry, but anyway.
Speaker 1:So what's the harm in performative allyship? I have some quotes and stuff and maybe I can pause and see if you have more to add to this. Someone who talks a lot about this is Ibram X Kendi, in his book how to Be Anti-Racist, and so he argues that performative allyship is hollow and inauthentic. Hearg said her formative allyship is often motivated by self-promotion or seeking positive recognition, rather than genuine desire to make a difference. It's harmful to the movement, which is what Pac-Net Cunningham was saying, which was what Manny was saying in her post, suggests that it can be harmful to the cause by creating a false sense of progress.
Speaker 1:Um, because I did have um a sense, a moment where I was like, wow, look at all my friends who don't, who think this is terrible, like I'm, like I. There was just so much relief and I wasn't sure, like, what was going to happen that day. Um, and I was there. I felt relief in seeing some of these white people. I didn't know where they stood, and so there was a false sense of progress, especially now that I'm talking about this situation five years later and we have slid so far backwards, I could knock somebody out. So, anyway, a false sense of change. So, anyway, false sense of change. It requires. So activism requires, I'm sorry, allyship requires engagement. So we emphasize that true allyship involves actively using one's privilege and power to challenge racist policies and structures, not just expressing solidarity, solidarity. So, um, for me and I think I can't remember if this was a podcast conversation or if this was a I think this was maybe um a voice memo conversation the three of us had about who we call an ally, do you?
Speaker 1:guys remember this, manny um, and and so it's like it's not enough for me to know that you agree, Like I need to know like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that I just want to add to it that the conversation has become, I don't know if complicated is the right word, but you in your intro referenced the blue bracelets is the right word. But you in your intro talk, reference the blue bracelets and when you know the when after the november election, the in the black community, specifically black women of, like we're resting, we're resting, we're resting like, we meaning, like we don't even need to know that you're an ally, like that's not even enough to make us feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:The trust has been broken, and it might not be that it's a personal attack against the individual, it's just the trust around us. Our psychological safety is damaged, and so it's not even a conversation. I just want to say that with, like, the memo, because the memo was about something else. I I know exactly what that conversation was, but it morphed, um, it has morphed through time, and this conversation has more through time of allyship in the black community, specifically after the results of the election because it.
Speaker 2:It was just like you know what we see now in some of the stuff on threads of like you were so afraid of having a black woman president that you would choose this over a qualified black leader Period, and so allyship isn't even on the table for some people I'm not going to speak for all people, yeah but for for many people in the black community it's like the, where we're no longer interested in inviting in, because we inviting into our circles, because we feel like the infiltration of the spirit of a white person has robbed a lot from us.
Speaker 3:Well, it's almost like everything is performative.
Speaker 3:You know yes we you talk about the black squares, which is a visible example of the performative allyship. But when we got to the opportunity to elect a very highly qualified candidate and I know we're speaking from a perspective of you know, one side right, so some people could argue the opposite side, half of the population, roughly, could argue the opposite side, but our perspective is, yeah, is that there was a very qualified candidate with a long political background and a ton of experience to pull from, and a candidate who, just frankly, you know, had four years of political background and I don't feel is very qualified. And so you, like you could argue then that everything white people did till that point is performative, because you had a very clear choice and it was very easy. I'm not asking you to, like you know, go write new legislation and rally, like your entire county or whatever, like, I'm just asking you to do the thing you were already doing and check a different box, and you couldn't do it. So, yeah, that's that's.
Speaker 3:I often have this and this is probably my white guilt, but like, I have this debate of like, where is the line between allyship and performative allyship and and uh, and I think the way that you described the um I'm gonna get it a little bit wrong, but it's like um there's times where I'm like, well, I, this isn't I, I'm white, so like I shouldn't speak on behalf of people of color broadly, and that that is not the right allyship, but actually it's.
Speaker 3:It's don't, first of all, don't speak on behalf of anybody, but like use my voice for actual change, not just to like to your point, like to show to people how I feel. You know, like don't center myself, but actually take it to that next level where I'm doing something in my community or I'm, you know, proactively driving some kind of change. And it could be at the smallest level, like, it can be my tiny little bubble or it can be on, you know, a like political sphere. I don't know, know, but it is that clicked for me of like it's not about being able to make a post on social media about how I feel or what my stance is. It's about taking my privilege and using it for good, like helping to drive actual change yeah, he.
Speaker 1:Um. He said going beyond allyship, advocates for individuals to move beyond the role of an ally, embrace the role of a co-conspirator who actively works to dismantle oppressive systems and achieve collective liberation.
Speaker 1:Yes, so beyond, I'm your ally, like I'm going to take action on your behalf and not in like I have so many definitions so I'm sorry to keep like reading but authentic support system in which someone from an outside, from outside a marginalized group, advocates for those who are victims of discriminatory behavior, whether this is an individual level, like so what you're saying, karen, in your smaller community or in your silo, or systemically, process driven with authentic allyship, there is an obvious and genuine attempt to transfer the benefits of privilege to those who lack it, and so I think, like a tangible so for me.
Speaker 3:Sometimes when I've heard this stuff in the past, I get overwhelmed Like I can't. I'm one person, I can't change hundreds of years of you know history and systemic institutionalism. I don't know what the right word is that set up this system right. But then I find there's opportunities in my world where I can have an impact on certain pieces. So years and years ago at a prior employer, as an example, I was talking with a colleague about reviewing candidate resumes. So we had an annual recruiting process where, you know, universities, like students, would submit resumes in mass and so we had to review a lot of them and it was very time consuming and and it's only with that piece of paper that you're putting into a pile of yes, interview or no, reject, um, which you know that process is broken and that's another conversation. But I was having a conversation with a colleague about how many resumes we each had to review and like what your process is to make it easier.
Speaker 2:And this man, white man, as you can imagine, white man, as you can imagine, literally said to me that if he cannot read their name, I was just. I knew exactly where this was going.
Speaker 3:Yes, that he put that in a no pile and and I was so proud of myself in that moment, cause I was like you cannot do that. That is the definition of discrimination. Yeah, and, and like I actually said it like cause there's plenty of times in my life where things happen and I am too nervous to confront it because I'm I don't I'm very passive. I don't like confrontation, but that one, I would like my blood was boiling instantly and I was probably like I don't know. I was in my twenties at this time Like I was probably like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I was in my 20s.
Speaker 3:At this time, like I was pretty young, but it's like things like that. You know where he actually we, we had a conversation about it. At that point I was I tried my best not to be so aggressive that I shut him down or I caused him to shut down, you know and we had a conversation. He was like oh, my you're. You know like it ended with you're right, I can't do that, I won't do that anymore. And it's like little things like that. That if he was truthful in that moment and I'm going to take him at his word that from that point forward his behavior hopefully changed and the people that would have gotten an immediate no now maybe had an opportunity to have a conversation with you know a company that a lot of people would be interested to work for, you know.
Speaker 3:So it's like it's. It's things like that that we as white people can do on a very one, on one level that actually will make change in the long run.
Speaker 2:If we all do it Like yeah, I hear that and I appreciate that. I think, when I'm still thinking about that conversation about like black black women perspective of like, I remember what we were talking about. I was on a call with another black woman and I called some other white women allies and the black woman was like none of them are my allies, you know.
Speaker 2:And I was like whoa, you know, and I was very like what and that rocked me and that rocked me and I think what I've learned over the past couple of years and since that conversation is that that is discrimination, yes, by on law and by paper. But we are not looking for by law and on paper. We're looking for like a spiritual, soulful change in people. Law and on paper, we're looking for like a spiritual, soulful change in people. And that means having a conversation of why does it upset you that you can't pronounce this person's name? You know, why is that so upsetting to you? It's because of white supremacy.
Speaker 2:Whiteness is the center of everything and you see yourself as supreme he very well might be voting democrat blue, whatever it is, but there's still a condition of white supremacy that exists within that sees himself as supreme, and that's, I think, the in office authenticity and the what you were saying of like it's not actually real progress, because we're not actually addressing the root, which is white supremacy and dismantle. If you were uninterested in dismantling the system of white supremacy, then there's not even an opportunity to talk about allyship, and so in order to really dismantle white supremacy, you have to know what white supremacy is.
Speaker 2:So that's where you should start you know, and I, and I had to go on that journey for myself because in that conversation, what the woman was reflecting back to me is that you still have some poison in your mind and your psychology that is keeping you from understanding how whiteness is centered in everything. And I had to go on a journey to like what is this? What are all these things right? And so, going to Steph's example of last week with your Karen story of urgency and timing right, culturally, that doesn't exist across. You know a lot of cultures, right, you know investing in community, that is something that is really prominent in, I know, in Black culture. And so you know, when we're saying these things, as, as black people, we want our values to be held in just as high of a regard, because our values actually help across all like marginalized communities it's not about looking at black people as victims you know of a, of a system.
Speaker 1:It's about, like, removing whiteness as the center and allowing space for, you know, community unity and and um and love and peace and joy to like exist, you know um, when I was reading about what actual allyship and you know the co-conspirator and the true um, what we're actually looking for, to manny's point, I also came across, like you know, more explanations as to why performative allyship is harmful or what the problem is with. You know these small symbols. It's. Something I read was that performative allyship, by contrast, is where those with privilege profess solidarity, but for optics only, while maintaining a homogeneous leadership. So the power of decision-making and development of policy and processes has largely been to the preserve of white people. So it's kind of to what Karen was talking about with. You know, as soon as you see a certain name or you know, you've decided that they are not welcome in the space where decisions are made and so, in other words, it maintains the status quo. So when I read that, it had me thinking about.
Speaker 1:It had me thinking about Harvard I don't know if you guys are hearing about Harvard in the news because they have kind of bucked the Trump administration's orders to end diversity, equity and inclusion programming. Harvard is refusing to do that, and then I'm thinking about them. In contrast to Target, who completely folded. Um, and I still not understanding um, because harvard is a, is a um educational institution and does, have you know, impact from federal government. So I still don't understand why target had to fold to removing dei from from their processes. But my point of bringing this up is Harvard doubled down on diversity, equity, inclusion, and Target abandoned theirs. And it shows, then, that Target's previous quote unquote work was performative. If they were so quickly able to dismantle their dei programming, like I mean all instantaneously, um then it was performative in the first place.
Speaker 1:So all their t-shirts and you know the, the, the black brands that they brought into their um stores and stuff that it meant nothing to them, and harvard being able to double down and say, no, this is a woven into the art institution, this is how we plan to proceed. That's when you start to see that it that's. It wasn't performative, it was, you know, in their fabric.
Speaker 3:I've listened to a lot of podcasts recently with the president of Harvard if that's his title, I don't actually know CEO, I don't know what he is, but I find his stance to be very encouraging.
Speaker 3:I guess like he sees their institution as it's older than the United States it was founded before the United States was actually its own independent country and he sees the work that they do as building the future of this country and, you know, setting the tone for how we progress.
Speaker 3:And I know the word progress often gets muddied with liberalism, but if we as humanity are not constantly progressing, then we are regressing and that doesn't mean liberal or conservative, it just means improving as a human race and we should all want that. So I find that the way that he articulates how they're responding to this administration to be so refreshing. That you know we all put Harvard on this pedestal they're, like you know, the best University and the smartest people and to know that they could very easily be swayed by capitalism and funding and dollars and they're actually standing strong with their values and how they see themselves in the greater world order and the future of humanity is a little light at the end of the tunnel that I have to grasp on to Because our alma mater is doing the exact opposite.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:It's bad.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um Ohio uh signed into law um higher education is professors in higher education in the state of Ohio are no longer able to um uh bargain or like unionize.
Speaker 3:What.
Speaker 1:And they're not allowed to have diversity, equity and inclusion departments. Ohio state folded before the law was signed into law, like they knew it was coming, but it looked like they were jumping. It looked like they were jumping it. It looked like um, osu, just it looked like how target, like knee jerk reacted um, but maybe they just saw the legislation, like legislation, coming down the pipe, but regardless, like osu was going to do it, what anyway? And um, so it's very tough to say go bucks.
Speaker 3:I know I'm wearing Buckeye gear cause I just it's like I bleed, squinting gray, but um, it's bad Um and it's institutions like that that could actually drive meaningful change if they dug in their heels period, like like what Harvard is doing and Harvard is working to, um, get you know other major like Ivy leagues and stuff like that, to be doing the same because they have to be united. But yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's a. You know OSU is a public university.
Speaker 3:I don't know if Harvard is there is a difference there, but but I mean, I'm not excusing it.
Speaker 1:I'm just wondering if there's different implications when legislation is passed like what you can and can't do.
Speaker 3:There definitely is. So, like Harvard's, funding is research based. So they get some federal grants to do like medical research and stuff like that, because of the resources that they have and like the the minds that they have, and so the government will send them funding for very specific research programs, but it's not for the university to operate, whereas Ohio State would be the latter. So they are definitely held to different standards from a federal perspective or from a governmental perspective, but Ohio State is so big and has so much influence that you think you would think they could have used this as an opportunity to take a stand so I do have something about Harvard that they they were.
Speaker 2:I thought I saw this on social media a little bit a couple of days ago, but they canceled their affinity celebrations, like for graduation, for like the DEI stuff, for like the black students.
Speaker 1:So, before we glamorize a little bit. So did OSU.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, they did not hold those. So, in the spirit of performative allyship like I, just want to make sure that we put that on record that they did not do that, um, and there was something else that had been said.
Speaker 2:Oh, so my sister works for a major corporation and when all this stuff was happening with the DEI and stuff, she in the beginning they created and generated these DEI programs and she got a promotion to lead one area in the corporation, you know, and when this was all going on, with Trump transitioning, we had some conversations about this and you know, and she was saying, what it really means is that we just really have to pay attention when we're building these institutions. Again of like, who's designing them? Who's building them? We were so quick after, again, the knee-jerk reaction after George Floyd to just, this is the we were. We were reactive instead of responsive, right, and so it was easy for people to take them away.
Speaker 2:After there wasn't quote-unquote data of any sort of change, it was like well, this is a money drainage, right, that's how they're justifying it. It's not like a social act, it's a money drainage on the, even if they're not receiving federal funds. So what Trump like did was speak to that of like look at your funding and the money that's coming in. Is that really like how you want to allocate your funds? Is this bringing in any more talent? Is this producing the results that you wanted to produce.
Speaker 2:So it's easy for certain corporations to get rid of that when, when that was like how they quote-unquote, like start, framed the conversation. And so for us, as individual, like and, steph, I feel like I've sent you this text a lot of like their job and they, I mean essentially I, I'm just gonna say conservatism and and is to destroy everything that has been built right, and our job is to build. And so this is an opportunity for us to look at what it was that we built and refrain and refine and refine those, those organizations, right. And so, within combing through some of the DEI programs, like, what are we finding? How did we use language to help people understand what it was that we were trying to?
Speaker 2:do and so when we're talking about black people resting, that's what we're really talking about. And that's what we're really talking about because I'm not giving any secrets out on this podcast, but I know for me it's not like, oh, this is such a tragedy. It's that sustainability and the language that we're using to inform people of the changes that we're trying to make, using to inform people of what are the changes that we're trying to make. I feel like so a couple of things.
Speaker 1:One I wanted to share. Kind of back to the blue bracelet topic. I'm not sure if ever. Hopefully all the listeners know what we're talking about, but if you're not, sure there was a I think we mentioned it on a previous episode.
Speaker 1:Oh, we have, okay, blue Bracelet and Solidarity To show solidarity. I'm not one of the white women who voted for Donald Trump. I came across this post that kind of spoke to um, spoke to what, what was happening there, and I thought this was an interesting perspective. Um, and it's kind of a gentler. Um, look at, and it was a black woman who wrote this, but she said wearing bracelets is nice. She's talking about the difference between being nice and kind. So when we are nice, we focus on ourselves and feeling good. When we are kind, we focus on others and actually doing good. So being nice is about looking like a good person, while being kind is actually being a good person. So wearing the bracelet feels good and you think that's what people should want to see. But what we really want is real action, or real change, change, and I feel like, um, that the work is kind of. What you are alluding to, manny, is that there's some some real um research and reading and understanding, because when you truly understand what white supremacy is and how pervasive it is, um, you will want to take action to start to eradicate it. Um, so, my, my, I really only have one question, but I feel like we've talked a lot about this.
Speaker 1:But something that I think about is back to Ibram X. He talks about racist versus anti-racist right. So you're either racist, so you're one supporting a racist policy through action or in action, or you're anti-racist and you're supporting anti-racist policy through actions and expressing anti-racist ideas. And so my question to you guys is is it all or nothing like like he's like either you're anti-racist or racist. There's no in between. And so like let's, if we take step away from the topic of racism, then we talk about LGBTQ and women's rights and any topic.
Speaker 1:Is there any value to what some would deem performative, like can you think of a time where something that could be categorized as performative led to something meaningful? Can you think of a time or where it was the spark that led to change? And before I say this, I bring this up because in a few weeks we're going to have my cousin on. Her name is Sophia Pfifter and she is an advocate and she talks a lot about finding ways. Like Karen you mentioned. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed with how to get started, and a lot of what she does is she talks about small ways that you can actually make a difference in your community, and she did a post about performative. She called it performative activism and she says it's almost like a stepping stone, like you can start there, and and so I guess my question is do we condemn those who are, you know, taking that little small step, or do we encourage what it could lead to?
Speaker 3:I'm interested in your thought I was honestly going to ask the same thing because I think it's so for me, I think it's discouraging to think expressing my stance and my beliefs are that that might be counterproductive and so, like to your point I've said, it can feel overwhelming with like. So then what do I do? So I do struggle with this because I hear loud and clear why just performative allyship is counterproductive or can be counterproductive. But I also see the other side, like both things can be true. I think I see the other side where, like you know hopefully, there's people who dabble a little bit in some of that and then want and like, want a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then they end up on the other side, if that makes sense, because by that like very black and white pun not intended, um, you know you're either racist or you're anti-racist. Definition I think every white person and a lot of people of color would identify would fall under that racist category, right.
Speaker 1:He I mean in his book he says he was technically racist due to his inaction, and in other, in other, he it's kind of a journey of how he became anti-racist.
Speaker 3:So I think he would say there are people of color who are not quite anti-racist yet but it feels like when you, when, when it's like there's no gray area, it feels overwhelming to figure out how to like. I think of my life, for example, and I'm like I would have to change my career and like in my head, you know, this is like all because, because what I do in the business world is in support of the patriarchy, like the whole business system, the whole capital system, is founded in patriarchal values. And so then I'm like, well, now I. It just feels so overwhelming that I don't know. Then I get paralyzed, you know, I don't. Yeah, so that's just my honest reaction and I don't really know what the answer is.
Speaker 1:What do?
Speaker 2:you think, manny, reaction and I don't really know what the answer is. What do you think, manny? I find my body feeling constricted with this question and, a little bit of I feel, angry and upset. I think I don't know the answer to this question and I don't believe that I am supposed to be an instrument of having the answer. Um, that's not my purpose.
Speaker 2:Um, so I think, how I've always felt and I've said this several times on this podcast that when I'm busy living my best life and listening to my own intuition and challenging my own beliefs and setting my own moral code and building my own ethical laws within my business and organization, then I have no time to let anybody else know that they're doing it wrong. I just, I really don't. It's such a challenging task, especially now that I have this new business, every thread of the foundation of this business, I am constantly questioning if this is aligned to my values. Um, so what this really opens up for me is just more conversation of you know, the work that I try to do as an individual person, which is, I just try to be principled, right, and when I realize, when it's very aware to me that I am living in opposition to principles of unity and brotherhood and love and honesty and respect, then I am living in white supremacy culture and I need to change and I tried my best to change that you know.
Speaker 2:But every day I, I, I, I claw at it, right, but I have to know what values are important to me, to know what direction I'm even trying to head in, and I think that that's what's missing currently for all of us, and we talked about this on our spirituality episode. It's like we're missing some spiritual leadership on, you know, and I think that this is what kind of drew us to Kamala as a current candidate right, the soul of America, the soul like the, the morality of of what it means to live in community and be in humanity with one another, what it means to have philanthropy in business All of these values have not really been made concrete enough in this rapid expansion of technology and and and everything that we're seeing right now, and so we're just kind of all confused and because there's no leadership, I just have to rely on my own intuition.
Speaker 1:This is like I I'm not something that you said, that it may be a really crazy tangent, but when you said that, something I mean made me feel like you are. Like I feel like in white supremacy, white people are afforded the opportunity to be an individual. And do you hear where I'm headed with this? I feel like marginalized people. We are always having to be the collective and you are getting to. You're deciding that my individual journey and path and my morality and what I believe is going to be my path, and I don't represent all Black people and I'm not here to police you white people while you figure out what's going on with you, and you're kind of taking back the idea that only white people can separate themselves from any sort of um commentary, any sort of criticism. Um, and yeah, I love, I love that. That's I felt. I felt empowered by you saying I'm gonna just kind of focus on me. Um, I am.
Speaker 1:I am excited for our conversation with Sophia, because she and I had a conversation and she said you know, her work in advocacy and finding ways to reach people is very she's. There are not many black women who are working the way she is on it, because I think many black women and activists are where I think you are, manny, and in that uh, not hands up, but it's just it's, I'm not carrying the load anymore and I think Sophia still very much is and um, she's trying to find ways to to reach people and so I'm really excited to have a conversation with her because I would love to hear more about her perspective, because I've shared with her.
Speaker 1:You know, I feel like Nanny and I have talked a lot about being the 92% and this is our time to rest and and she was like I haven't read a lot about that. I understand exactly what you're saying and I am a very my perspective is very different as a black woman in the activism advocacy space. And so I think we're going to have some cool conversations with her. I'm really excited about that. So any confessionals, any aha moments or thoughts, um hmm, karen, did you have any?
Speaker 3:um, not really. I feel like I am very much processing all of this. Um, I knew obviously the topic for today, but I didn't appreciate how deep we were gonna get, so I have uh, I have some more thinking to do. Maybe I'll have some confessionals next week.
Speaker 2:I think for me and what you just said, steph, is like I didn't realize how. I don't think indifferent is the right word, but I didn't realize how far removed I was, carry the emotional baggage of white people's guilt. And that makes me proud of myself, good girl.
Speaker 3:You should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I don't know that I'm all the way there. I'm like, close though, I'm close, watch out, close though. So I'm close, watch out. But I, I feel like I have, I have evolved and I, I feel like you know, I see a lot of people in my news feed who are very actively, you know, um, what's the word that you like? Uh, what is the word when you're just like, oh, denouncing the Trump administration? Um, very actively, and I haven't said a word about it. I don't talk about it really, um, and I think that is an evolution in itself, because I couldn't, you couldn't, shut me up in 2020. Um, I and um, I feel like you know, I'm like that's none of my business, right?
Speaker 2:now.
Speaker 1:So I think that there's some things that I have evolved from my 2020 self, but there's still part of me that I'm excited for our conversation with Soph. I did link her post on performative activism to this episode, and so check it out, because she has some, some interesting perspectives. I don't know that she's gonna draw me back to my 2020 self, or I'm not saying she is my 2020 self. So, soph, if you're listening, that's not what I'm saying, but I just feel like there's like these two avenues you could take and, um, it's cool, like I feel like I have a lot still more learning to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great, I do love that. Our conversations often demonstrate that there's like not one right way. One right way I think maybe a confessional for me is as I've gotten older. When you're, when you're young, you see teachers or politicians you know, or authority figures as like the truth, like they know whatever their topic of responsibility is, and they are right, they are correct. And I think the older I've gotten, the more I'm realizing that I am using my my own reasoning to determine my own truth, or like what I want to take from that.
Speaker 2:Your caring colored glasses. Sorry, your caring colored glasses. My caring colored glasses. Sally Jesse Raphael. Sorry, your Karen colored glasses, my Karen colored glasses. Sally Jesse Raphael. Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just think that I love having these conversations where we do go deep and often makes me very uncomfortable, but that we can all have our own perspective and it's not that one is right or wrong, but we can learn from path. That's authentic for me and it's just. I think it's really special. I hope that comes through for our listeners and I hope that we all take the opportunity to share and to listen a little bit more so that we all continue to evolve and grow. I don't know, I think that's pretty special and not very common these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for an awesome conversation. Listeners, thank you for joining us. If you could please like, follow and subscribe to us on Instagram. You can call me karen underscore pod. You can find us on YouTube at you can call me karen. And until next time, thank you. We love you for listening.
Speaker 2:Bye bitches and we.
Speaker 1:Bye bitches.
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