You Can Call Me, Karen
You Can Call Me Karen is caught in the middle—too young for Gen X, too tired for Gen Z. Hosted by Manni, Steph, and Karen, three sharp-tongued friends raised on dial-up tones and Dawson’s Creek, the show unpacks the pop culture that shaped the ‘90s and early 2000s. With wit and candor, they dissect the contradictions of coming of age in that era, never afraid to channel their inner Karen if it means saying the quiet parts out loud. No advice, just real talk: a bold, funny, side-eye-laced ride through nostalgia, modern womanhood, and the messiness in between.
You Can Call Me, Karen
The U.S. Mental Health Syndrome
In this episode, we explore the evolution of therapy in the US and its impact on societal perceptions of mental health. We discuss the alarming trends in mental health outcomes, despite increased awareness and treatment options. The conversation delves into cultural influences, the stigma surrounding mental health, and the importance of access to care. We reflect on personal experiences and the need for a more compassionate understanding of mental health as a chronic condition that requires ongoing support.
References
https://time.com/6308096/therapy-mental-health-worse-us/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db444-tables.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://www.axios.com/2023/07/15/therapy-mental-health-addiction-depression?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://maintenancephase.buzzsprout.com/1411126/episodes/16529172-blue-zones
Keywords: therapy, mental health, cultural impacts, statistics, self-care, societal expectations, ADHD, stigma, wellness, emotional health
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Goodwill hunting A beautiful mind. Antoine Fisher Girl interrupted Cruel intentions. The 90s and early 2000s really loved their therapy-themed cinema, but it hasn't been until recent years that mental health care has really grown in the US, despite recent downtrends in actual mental health outcomes. On today's episode of you Can Call Me Karen we are diving into the world of therapy to debate. Is it even working? Hi ladies, this is Karen, okay there we go yes this is karen. Um, that was manny, if you weren't clear. Um, I am joined by my lovely co-hosts, manny hi and steph.
Speaker 1:Hello, hi, um. Today we're conducting a live therapy session. Yay, so we're going to be sharing our deepest, darkest secrets.
Speaker 2:My favorite, my absolute favorite.
Speaker 1:I'm not a water cooler conversation, kind of gal.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, exactly. Um. Okay, but before we are talking about therapy, um, I want to hear who you calling karen. Oh, season three. You said it with your chest, your whole chest did you see my look of?
Speaker 1:panic when you're like season three, I was like oh no, not good, I'm working on it she's gonna like lecture you like karen.
Speaker 3:It's season three.
Speaker 2:That's what I thought get it right or pay the price who's kicking us off? Um, but wait, did you guys? Even karen? I know you don't know that reference, but steph, did you know that? No, I know it. I can't with.
Speaker 1:No, get it right or pay the price.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, we run, we jump, we swim and play. Yeah, oh yeah, we go on trips. Okay, there it is. Don't say anymore.
Speaker 2:We'll have to pay for that, okay.
Speaker 3:I take that as the highest compliment, cause that means it was on key.
Speaker 1:Wait, what was it? Salute your shorts, get it right or pay the price.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, I'm catching up where do you think those guys are right now?
Speaker 1:um, they're like you know um, I was gonna say like brad pitt, it's, you know, that's how they got their start. The big names yeah, they're definitely level of brad pitt, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Um, I can go first with my Karen story. Um, I was thinking about this when I was prepping for my episode for next week with spirituality and also with, um, our conversation about performative allyship. Last week when I, right after, like, the George Floyd movement started, I saw a woman post something I can't even remember who the individual was that she had posted about and I said, oh my god, I love her, she's my spirit animal and the woman did, I did, I have. I shared this Karen story before.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't think on the show, but you've shared it with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah oh okay, I was kind because I was like I can't remember if I've shared this or not.
Speaker 3:I wasn't saying because I recognize the story, I just know like.
Speaker 2:I remember this story because it pissed me off but let's be clear she was a white woman, responded back to me we can't say that anymore. And my response was or we reserved, and we reserve that for indigenous people for their yes, for their uh, um, spiritual practices and whatnot. And I was like so, steph, I saw your reaction just now, so you know where I went, right, I'm like well, in history, we were not solely monotheistic, we also came from polytheistic backgrounds as well. So that's not just reserved for, you know, brown and indigenous cultures.
Speaker 3:Period, yeah, and we'll, and I and I Period Period and so yeah, so that that that I was thinking about that.
Speaker 2:I was. I was prepping for my episode for next week and you know where. The co-opting of, uh, certain terms and the telling of who's allowed to say what, the policing of certain terminology, the um. You know, I have this knowledge. Now let me teach you um, I don't know, there was a lot there. What are y'all's reactions to that?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, that burns me up, um, inside, uh, I can't think of the specifics and maybe I'll just save this because Steve shared a story very similar where, you know, a white woman was imparting her knowledge and what she's learned on the city and how they should proceed, and, while she might have had a point, it it's just kind of like, know, he was just like, it just seemed performative because it was just coming from this like show-off place as opposed to genuine, you know, concern and preservation of whatever it was.
Speaker 3:so I'm gonna get the details and I'll save that for another story but it was very like exactly where you were going with, like your reaction and my reaction to this woman saying you can't say spirit animal, is it the same thing? It's the same thing.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting because it's it's Like white women specifically and my name is Karen, so I can say this but we I don't know we do this thing where it's like we learn something that we think is right, like we have the best of intentions behind it sometimes, tensions behind it sometimes, and then we want to impart it on everyone. That's like leaving the door slightly open and it's like white ladies we need you to correct white ladies and white men Like don't don't correct Manika. Manika's fine, she's doing what she's doing. Don't worry about what she's doing. Feel free to correct Karen. Yeah, karen, she'll take some correction. It's just I don't know. I just feel like there's times where I'm like okay, but you want me to speak up, but then you don't want me to speak up, like I hear, I hear that argument, but like Speak up when it comes to white people, like white people, you know enough speaking up to people of color.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like if you have one rule when a white person says something ignorant and dumb, correct them. They're, they're the.
Speaker 3:they're the problem I think at the beginning of the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020, there was a lot of messaging around. It's our turn, white people, to listen, and I feel like that message got lost very quickly once, you know, knowledge was gained and they started to read more and have more to say, and then, back then, I felt like people went back to centering themselves and so like exactly to your point, karen. You know it feels easy to correct a person of color because that's a person of color, because that's that's how it always is supremacy, because white supremacy, and so you know, the challenge is how are you changing your life and your contribution and how are you making impact on your community, not on the people who are at the receiving end of oppression?
Speaker 2:yes, absolutely and also.
Speaker 2:I mean I will say to give her credit that she took the feedback well of like I didn't consider that. So it's also of you know your learning is surface level and, to what Karen was saying, that's what white supremacy is. It taught you that when you get just a little, that we don't have as much depth to us. But it's really that the way that we learned and the things that we learned are different than what you learned right, and so ours is really really, really, really deep. So when you read that one book or those two books, or send in that professional development or go to that one conference, just know you are scratching the surface of generational history and you are not there yet you know, and you thinking that you've grasped or gained or attained a goal or achieve something.
Speaker 2:If that's your intention or motive, then you're, you're still wrong. You're still wrong. You know, that was fine.
Speaker 3:Well. I am glad that you went first, because I have two stories and I wasn't sure which story I wanted to go with, but I feel like this leads into um. I'm calling um to the table. I'm calling the manager on In the news. Maybe you guys have heard about this, but Wait really quick, it is June 6th. Okay, yes, you're right, news will change by the moment.
Speaker 2:You are so good about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, june 6th, just for frame of reference for our listeners.
Speaker 2:Yes, and if you don't hear or see from us after this? I'm just kidding. You know why.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, our safety is in. I don't know what the word is Danger In danger. I'm calling to the table a broadway icon, ish patty lupone. Have you guys heard about?
Speaker 2:this I'm not hip. No wait what, who?
Speaker 3:patty lapone okay okay, patty lupon yeah, this is not where I thought you were going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the date probably matters less now.
Speaker 3:Well, she's a Broadway icon. I mean she's been in many, many musical Tony Award winning blah, blah blah. She was called to the table by the Broadway community First by another Broadway star. Her name is Keisha Lewis and she's currently. Keisha Lewis is currently starring in the Broadway play Hell's Kitchen. Patti LuPone is performing in a play, I think close to where Hell's Kitchen is performing and she raised concern, patti LuPone, about the quote unquote quote noise and how loud hell's kitchen was and that she could hear the music cues from her theater.
Speaker 3:It was being disruptive to her show oh god patty.
Speaker 3:So patty lapone did reach out to the producers at hell's kitchen and asked them to make changes to their sound cues uh, because it was disrupting her show. And after she did so, they did make adjustments and homegirl sent flowers thanking them for that. So after that happened, keisha lewis got on her instagram and recorded a video calling her out, if she did like an open letter saying that what she considered patty lapone to do was to A be a bully because she was using her power and influence to impact another production. And she also was saying that there's racial microaggressions in using the vocabulary loud. There was also a fan who saw Patti LuPone outside her show and they wanted Patti's autograph and they had a playbill from Hell's Kitchen. And Patti LuPone said, oh, I'm not going to sign that, their show's too loud.
Speaker 3:And in Keisha Lewis's open letter recording herself speaking, she cut to that footage of Patti LuPone turning down a fan because Hell's Kitchen is too loud. And so I sat and watched and listened to Keisha Lewis's you know explanation as to how it's right, what she defines racial microaggressions. She defines bullying and explains exactly why Patti LuPone was wrong here or just an opportunity for her to reflect a little bit. Patti LuPone was then interviewed by the New Yorker and she, like, popped off about Keisha Lewis. You know, in Keisha Lewis's letter she referred referred to herself and patty lapone as peers and colleagues, as they're both veterans of broadway patty lapone said she's no veteran, she's only been in seven shows.
Speaker 3:Wow, she doubled down and she called her the b word what, what, yup In the interview. So then, other Broadway community members wrote a petition asking her to be banned from the upcoming Tony Awards, and 500 actors on Broadway signed it Whoa.
Speaker 1:Asking for Patti to be out For Patti LuPone to be excluded.
Speaker 3:They said that she is being a bully and and so, um, people were like not here for it and um, and another person who she, patty lapone, went after was audra mcdonald, the angel on earth. Um, because after keisha lewis's post, audra McDonald commented underneath and just did like hearts or something like supportive, like you know, amen, or seriously, I can't remember what it was, but it was in support of what Keisha Lewis was saying In that same interview. Patti LuPone, they were like what do you think of Audra McDonald, who has been nominated for her role as Gypsy Rose, who Patti LuPone played? And they're like what do you think of her performance? And apparently in the article it says that she stared at the interviewer for 15 seconds in silence and then went hmm, what a beautiful day. And didn't even respond. And Audra McDonald is about to be the most decorated Broadway star on the planet.
Speaker 3:And so so I'm calling Heidi Lepone. She's my character of the week because I've been just riveted by the story. She did issue an apology, but her opening line is I have been known to is something to the effect of I've been known to speak my mind and I never apologize until today. That's how she started the apology I don't want your apology. Get out of here and that's pretty much what the feedback has been. From what I've read is people are like too little too late like holy smokes.
Speaker 2:500 names is a lot that.
Speaker 3:That's a lot.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That means that this has been going on. She should have been apologizing, because these people have been waiting for this moment.
Speaker 3:And that's what people were saying is her apology seems more from her PR people telling her it's time. Right, because she initially doubled down when people brought this to her attention. Like, what did you think of what Keisha Lewis was saying about Valar when people brought this to her attention? Like, what did you think of what Keisha Lewis was saying about?
Speaker 1:Valar.
Speaker 3:She like was awful yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness gracious, that's a lot. I didn't realize that was the story that you were going to be talking about. I have not been on that. That has not come up on my algorithm on. Tiktok or Instagram or in my news feed. Yeah, same but damn, but damn. Yeah, but that's a drama, drama wow uh, micro aggressions of calling that hell's kitchen, play loud yeah, because you know it's.
Speaker 3:It's a predominantly black cast right um and it's the.
Speaker 2:The music is probably more. I haven't seen it. It's on my list six hell's kitchen and death becomes her. Yes, which, by the way, did you guys know? Michelle williams is in death becomes her yes, I did know and I sorry, shameless plug. I got to see michelle williams right down the street from my office on mond. No way, this is perfect. She was giving a talk on mental health, yay.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:Love it, it was like really intimate theater venue down the street Count Basie or the Vogel and she was there and talking about her mental health journey since being hospitalized in 2018,. I believe that's amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I want to see it becomes her too.
Speaker 2:Did I see what? Did you go to the talk that she had? Yeah, on Monday at seven o'clock.
Speaker 3:It was great.
Speaker 2:It was cool. She's funny too. She's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, michelle we'll have you on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Okay.
Speaker 1:Michelle, we'll have you on yeah. Nanny's vouching for you. I guess we'll do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll do it. She'll be our guest next next season. We're already booked for season three.
Speaker 1:Well, um, damn stuff, that was a big one, and I feel like I really want to go down this rabbit hole, but we've got to get to our topic for the week. So those are your Karens for the week, and now we'll dive right in. All right, so today we are exploring the topic of therapy and mental health care. In recent years, it's definitely something that is talked about more than I think, ever, certainly ever before in my lifetime, outside of those movies that I highlighted at the very top which, by the way, right Popped so many memory bubbles.
Speaker 1:Um.
Speaker 2:Ryan Felipe was all over my walls.
Speaker 1:I feel like all of those movies for me were like serious, like they I watch. For someone who doesn't watch movies, I have seen all of those.
Speaker 2:Did not give you credit for all those drops of popular culture, especially.
Speaker 1:I don't know you guys, I don't know what. I think I saw that at a very pivotal moment in Fisher especially. I don't know you guys, I don't know what. I think I saw that at a very pivotal moment in my like um mental development or something, but that one it got me. I like love that movie so so much. Yeah, anyways, um, yes, so there'll be that actor too.
Speaker 2:I saw him last year some convention at hip hop ed convention that I was on. He's really fascinating. He lives kind of a private life and it's like really hasn't done a ton yeah. Yeah, he does advocacy work. I want to say um for like education but also a small name, Denzel Washington.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've heard of him. He was in that movie too who's also on Broadway right now.
Speaker 1:This is very yeah, we didn't plan this, but it's working out great um yeah, so I guess, um this, I think therapy got added to our list like very early on when we're devising our plans for this pod. Um, it's definitely a topic all over social media. Self-care is kind of wound into this. I'm guessing you see it too, but despite that, when I was preparing for this, mental health outcomes have actually been declining quite dramatically in recent years. I would love to debate why we think that is. The most obvious reason is, you know, covid, global pandemic recession. There's a few things that have been happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's just, like you know, a couple minor things that have been happening in recent years that are in everybody's mind and causing some negative outcomes, but I think it's just interesting nonetheless that we have more attention on the topic of mental health care than ever before and also a number of statistics that are showing that outcomes are rapidly declining. So I want to start by walking through some statistics that I found. I'll link all of the sources to this, of course, but wanted to just kind of like set some context and then just would love some reactions and thoughts around, like why you think trends are the way that they are. So, in recent years and this is all going to be US centric, just for reference, so US adults' use of mental health care has increased from 19% of US adults in 2019 to about 23% in 2022. And this has been a consistent upward trend, so that number continues to grow.
Speaker 1:The highest rate of mental health treatment is amongst 18 to 25 year olds, which probably is no surprise. They're somewhere around 30%, I want to say. And then the lowest rate is for those over the age of 50. Yeah, not hugely surprising, given just stigmas and taboo and whatever. Um, women are also significantly more likely to seek mental health treatment than men, uh, to the tune of nearly 29 percent of women compared to nearly 18 percent of men.
Speaker 1:Um, and despite all of this, there have been negative outcomes surfacing. So suicide rates are up about 30% since the year 2000. Almost a third of US adults are now reporting symptoms of depression or anxiety. So I wanted to share all of that context because there's a lot happening here. I didn't go much further back just because there's a lot happening here. I didn't go much further back just because there's a lot of numbers, but I think these trends are very clear of people moving more towards the use of mental health care, either in the context of therapy itself or in mental health medications. So yeah, I think I'm curious from you two are you surprised at that difference? Is there anything that comes to mind when you hear these statistics?
Speaker 3:Well, the suicide rate was what? Like shocked me that because my initial thoughts when, when you were saying there is a downward trend in mental health but an increase in people seeking mental health support, would that just be because more people are being diagnosed, because, or like there's more language around symptoms, like people are discussing symptoms more openly and all that kind of stuff, so you would think that yeah, I would say diagnoses would probably have to go up if more people are seeking support for common, for not not common, but like openly discussed symptoms, because now people are like okay, well, so I shouldn't feel like this, maybe I should talk to someone. So you would think then that if more people are talking to someone and maybe being even prescribed medication to support them, that you wouldn't see that increase in suicide rates.
Speaker 2:So that's just like wait, can you say that one more time?
Speaker 3:Steph, Let the last part I was saying like if more people because there's more increased conversation around symptoms of depression, anxiety and then. So now more people are able to recognize okay, oh I, so that's not common. I shouldn't feel like that, maybe I should get support. So now they're going to see someone for help and maybe they're even being medicated for whatever mental health. I'm surprised then that the suicide rate has increased if more people are getting help than before.
Speaker 2:That's the part that's shocking to me that's the part that's like shocking to me. But I don't think that you you don't have to be clinically depressed or have a clinical diagnosis to go to therapy true so I don't. So these numbers of people going to therapy also include people who don't have clinical diagnoses.
Speaker 1:So are you hypothesizing that the people who are going to therapy are not the same people who are committing suicide?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm saying like that yeah, the numbers could increase, because therapy has been de-stigmatized, but you but, but there destigmatized, but you but, but their therapy is also a way that people are to your point of using the language. People are understanding that they need that as a form of self-care not necessarily because they have an actual, a dsmv or whatever we call it dsmV4 or whatever diagnosis from their therapist.
Speaker 2:So the pool is larger because more people are using it as a way to and I'm just speaking from my own personal experience. I don't have a clinical diagnosis, but I go to therapy Same. So I think yeah, so that's two out of three.
Speaker 3:So you're saying the clinical, the people with that. Just because more people are going to therapy doesn't mean people who have a like. Not all people who need a clinical diagnosis are going, and so the people who might need help from a clinical standpoint that could then lead to suicide are not getting the help that they're. Yeah. So there's, still enough stigma that people who truly need help are not getting the help they need. Yeah, not in all cases.
Speaker 1:Not at all, but I still think that the 30% rise in suicide rates is strange. I think that that no, I'm not saying about the 30% rise in suicide rates is strange, I think that that no, I'm not saying about the 30% suicide.
Speaker 2:I'm saying in the first question what I'm reading is the use of mental health care has increased, but that's not because everybody using it is yeah, is has a diagnosis and is using it because of a diagnosis. That's why, the number has increased.
Speaker 1:I've not yet been diagnosed, but but like certainly anxiety or ADHD or something is at play here. So just I do think that is an important distinction, that I might be lacking a proper diagnosis, but that doesn't mean I'm perfectly mentally healthy.
Speaker 2:We know.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:I mean I get that and I mean I think that that's why people are interested in receiving the care. I think I would be interested to look at this number. I was having this conversation with my mother-in-law a couple years ago, because she's a nurse, and I do also wonder about how. I think it was during guess whose presidency, mr Reagan, that they started to rid of like institutionalized care and when we started to see more people without institutionalized care. Now we're seeing like a little bit more homelessness.
Speaker 2:So I would be, curious to see where homelessness falls into all this because homeless individuals are not going to get the mental health care that they need, as we know and I just would love to see that suicide demographic homelessness like is there a correlation there?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think you touched on a couple of things, too, that I think are important in this conversation. The first and I realize it's the last on my list if you're following along in my notes but the first, I think, most important thing is access to mental health care and insurance that covers it, and that is still a really huge gap in In the United States health care system, and everything I've read in recent years would suggest that mental health care should be preventative care, just like an annual exam with your PCP, some form of that to identify potential needs earlier and more often to avoid if you're thinking of this simply from a capitalistic mindset to avoid major costs on the line when people have major problems that could have been in some way tempered or reduced. So I think insurance is something that consistently comes up in everything I've read of a gap for people who genuinely need care.
Speaker 2:I would add to that, like we're seeing right now again, this is June 6, 2025, if anyone finds these tapes, this is what was happening in the United States. Anyone finds these tapes. This is what was happening in the United States. But we're also seeing a slash of funding for the public education system, and so all kids having access to a school psychologist or a school counselor that would be able to provide some kind of free care is in question as we move forward.
Speaker 2:And there's all these other external factors that are I think this is a part of this conversation there's all these external factors that happen to you when you're a kid that you're so unaware of, but your body senses them and your body holds the what is that book? Your body holds the trauma or something like. Your body holds all of this, so you don't know why you're experiencing it. But talking to like a specialist is is really helpful in that right, and I think we didn't have that language like a couple of decades ago, but now we do, and so if we're talking about, you know, opening that up to to so that more people can access that and have like free care during the day, it would start with our young people in the school system so then they can get identified by the school system and then get the treatment that they need developmentally moving forward. But if we're starting to cut that out of the cost of our budget, then we're going to see increased rates or negative outcomes and not only cutting it out of the budget.
Speaker 3:But there is a movement from the conservative you know MAGA people that they don't want SEL or social emotional learning even brought up Curriculum us to provide these young people the language and stuff around. You know anxiety and um. You know depression and all that kind of stuff like, and mindfulness, mindfulness, yeah, all that kind of stuff is under that umbrella why, like which I think like um.
Speaker 2:another thing that I'm thinking about, of like the change, is that we've learned that it's like a nature versus nurture debate Sometimes that your mental health can change as you grow.
Speaker 2:It's not just something that you're born with, which, I think, was what the research was telling parents early on, and so it's um, you, you are susceptible to being in a mental health crisis, no matter your race, your age, your demographic, um, your, how much money you have, uh, the, the, the having having a mental health episode can occur. That's just something that Michelle Williams actually talked about. She was like I was at the height of my career, I'm touring with Beyonce, like I'm in Destiny's Child, I have everything, success was seemingly like on my side and I still couldn't get out of bed, you know. So I think that that is an awareness that, culturally, we have to understand. Is that, like you know it, unfortunately, these, we, we are unaware of the, the triggers that could cause a episode for somebody and so, and that deals with suicide too.
Speaker 2:episode for somebody and so, and that deals with suicide too. You know, like these kids, these pressures, we are not understanding quite well what it is that's making them so like hopeless yeah, I do think um, something that was very interesting as I was reading this time article in particular um was gosh.
Speaker 1:I feel like maybe I said this last week how, when I was young, I would look at adults in any position of authority and assume that they knew everything right, like if you're my teacher, you know everything about the thing that you're teaching, and what you're saying is fact. If you're my doctor, you know everything about the human body and what you're saying is fact. And what I am coming to terms with in my adulthood is the recognition that that's just not true. Like all, humans bring um fault to anything, and that's kind of the beauty of humanity and also the curse.
Speaker 1:And I think in reading this Time article specifically, that became clear to me on this topic as well, which is that mental health care is quite different from physical health care.
Speaker 1:Physical health, you can do a test for cancer and it's positive or negative.
Speaker 1:You could do a test for anemia and it's positive or negative, and that determines a set of you know decisions you make in terms of somebody's ongoing care.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to mental health care, it's not black and white. There is a lot of subjective criteria, there is a lot of misdiagnosis or prescription of medication that changes over time, and there's so much we just don't know or understand about this area of healthcare so things often go misdiagnosed or mistreated or, you know, you have to run through a number of different medications before you find the one that really works well for you, and I think that that's something that, yeah, if you asked my younger self, would be really upsetting, because it's like you know, I'm asking for help potentially, and you still can't fix me and like, if you're also simultaneously dealing with a mental health crisis, that that could be pushing someone away as opposed to encouraging them to like, continue and stay the course. So, yeah, it's kind of, um, it's a very tricky topic because there's not one clear, right answer, which is, for someone like me, very upsetting.
Speaker 2:That's your disease talking.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm just kidding, but it is.
Speaker 2:I think did in your research you come across a working definition for mental health care or anything that you feel would help like understand, like the difference between mental health care, physical care, like anything like that not trying to put you on the spot, but anyway, I think when you were talking one of the things that it reminded me of similarly with like, not like, the definition being very abstract is similar to what I experienced as an educator in the special education system of like. So what is the goal? To be released from care?
Speaker 3:or is you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean and so there's this weird mirroring of like wait, am I more crazy because I know my diagnosis and I'm identifying with my disease or am like am I trapped now?
Speaker 2:like, am I because I'm always gonna have this and there's no cure for it? Am I able to ever get out of this? Like, do I have to see a therapist for the rest of my life? That was something that jumped out to me when you were saying, like people falling off of the therapy trend and 50 and ages 50 and up, it's like well, is there a belief that, after a certain amount of mental health care that included that that might help us to understand this approach to care.
Speaker 1:I love that there's something. Manny, we can cut this if you don't want this in.
Speaker 2:Cut.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just kidding, but you told Bob when Bob, when my husband was on his um, his journey with his gambling addiction um, he just recently did a podcast on that, so I think it's okay for me to say but you told him about a program that he was participating in and like thinking of it as medicine for essentially a chronic illness. So you had said something to the effect of like if you were taking blood pressure medication for high blood pressure, you wouldn't stop taking it as soon as your blood pressure normalized. You would keep taking it because that means the medicine was working. Similarly, for you know, like a 12-step program or something like that, if it's working that doesn't mean you're fixed and you stop taking that medicine. You keep going because the medicine is working.
Speaker 1:So I thought that that was like a beautiful analogy where it's like. This is this is a disease that is real that some people are going to have to live with for their entire lives, and there's there's metaphorical and physical medicines that can help support you manage a life with whatever it is you're dealing with, and that is a lifetime of care, you know, and that's okay. I think there's a stigma around the care itself and so you think you need to either hide it or get fixed and move on from it, as opposed to just being OK with like this is part of who I am and I am treating my illness the way I would treat any illness that you know is chronic. Anyways, that stuck with me, bob told me, you told him about that and I loved that.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 3:She loves me guys, We'll keep that part in.
Speaker 1:I just didn't. It felt very personal and so I was like well, if you don't want it in, we can cut it, but I do love that. My ego likes it, so I'll cut you down later, just to even things out.
Speaker 2:I get one compliment a year, you guys, and that was it. That was it. You all heard it.
Speaker 3:I have proof, june 6, 2025.
Speaker 1:If you guys didn't know the date yet, I think the other thing that's interesting here, though, is that you mentioned Manny the DSM. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:We'll get it right one day.
Speaker 1:I have it in this article actually that I'm going to panic search for as I'm talking Diagnostic is the.
Speaker 1:Physical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM. The Time article says psychiatry, uh has its Bible and then it refers to that, that book. Um, it's a set of like diagnostic criteria for healthcare conditions, largely based on symptoms. So there is this Bible, if you will, that all mental health practitioners kind of reference. And the point of this was that this is like it's outdated and not perfect and we use it as a perfect source and so, like that is at the center. I mean it's called the Bible of like, of the red flag.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No comment, but yeah, I just think it's it. That is like such a perfect example of why this industry is imperfect and we could maybe direct more research dollars to it to help with this problem. That is getting worse, clearly, according to the statistics, but apparently we're taking funds away from it as opposed to towards it, which is disappointing and sad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that there's something there about like you know you referenced like a beautiful mind and cruel intention and you know, I've even heard of some students who have to take like ADHD medication is like is it that we are trying to control and, quote-unquote, create normal individual, that our world is not built like, where our mindsets are not expansive enough to hold space for some certain conditions? And I think the in the medical field you'll see conversations between parents who have young children who need a certain medication, like debating. That's the debate of like what does this medication do to the individual and how much of that is numbing the individual versus the dis, the dis ease right, like what part of the dis ease is causing dis ease to the individual as opposed to society?
Speaker 1:I think there's a little bit of both. So I I've done a lot of research recently on ADHD because my son is diagnosed with ADHD and has to go to school and work within the construct of the way that we run school with an ADHD brain and that is very difficult brain and that is very difficult. And there is this stigma around giving children medication to help them focus. I will say from personal experience that if you're doing this in the right way, with the right set of you know doctors and practitioners who are evaluating you know, evaluating the outcomes and making sure that the care is appropriate for that person, my son's personality is no different whatsoever and it should not be. They should not feel numb. That is, years and years of mismedicating, like incorrectly medicating, for whatever you know the set of challenges are. But I do think.
Speaker 1:I do think there is certainly the debate of our society operates in a certain set of roles and a certain structure and for atypical brains and I think it's important to use the term atypical as opposed to abnormal, but like there's, it kind of like a set of typical behaviors and then there's just some folks that operate outside of those bounds and that's fine. But for those that do. It makes it more challenging to be successful in the constructs that our society has built and rather than reconstructing an entire society that has been stood up over hundreds of years. If there's medication to help support that and it works for those individuals, then great.
Speaker 1:The nice thing in this case about like ADHD medication is that it's only in your system for as long as it's in your system, which is a few hours, so it doesn't make lasting or permanent changes. You can choose not to take it on certain days, and the hope is that one day you learn tools that allow you to operate effectively without medication if that's your preference. But I think that is like I shouldn't say I think I know ADHD is like the most studied, you know, the most understood, the most effective treatment is available, and for other mental health issues that is just not the case, and those medications like stay in your system much longer and they have a lot of other side effects that are very detrimental or can be very detrimental, and so like this is where this like subjective diagnosis becomes so potentially harmful, because people may be being treated for the wrong things and then you have months of um, like upheaval when your body is adjusting and then unadjusting and, like you know, changing heads.
Speaker 2:It's like or you're like adolescents, right yeah, your hormones, like there's so many things that impact and I know for like I mean when I was work because I was emotional disabilities teacher, so like you couldn't diagnose uh kiddos with like schizophrenia after at a certain age, like and there's weird things like that too, with like even dyslexia, now like you can't diagnose them, when there's very clear signs that like yeah, oh, my sister's going through that, yeah um, and so yeah, and, and I I believe their reasoning is because of like hormone changes or like like different changes developmentally that happen with age.
Speaker 1:Um and I mean hopefully that's a sign that the science is improving. But I don't know Like these numbers just scare me. When I was reading these statistics I'm like it doesn't feel like.
Speaker 2:That was my point of like, like. The numbers to me indicate that like, like when you were talking about systems and structures and our numbers increasing. That's an indicator to me that our structure is no longer working. That's where I was going with that conversation of like if these are our rates and people are getting care and people are getting access and the science is there, then maybe there's something structurally and systemically that needs to change that we're not addressing.
Speaker 3:Because we're trying to fit people to a certain mold people to a certain mold or certain mold, yeah yeah, I feel like I see a lot of um posts and memes and things that are like, uh busyness and uh over scheduling is not a badge of honor, like. I feel like, um, our society like requires us to be at this really insanely high level of execution at all times.
Speaker 3:You talked about it as parents. What we are expected to do as parents versus what our parents did as parents is very different and just the overscheduled that we talked about for kids and um, and so when you're talking about somebody who it has adhd and you know struggles with executive functioning and focus and stuff, but should we be this like scheduled? Should we be this back-to-back? You know constant stimulation and you know just the overworked the. You know that there should be a change to our society as well, culturally for sure.
Speaker 2:Culturally. Yeah, you said American statistics right, so that is important. Yeah we, you know, also in our learning, speaking of, like our growth as individuals. You know, looking at, you know other points of the world which I think maintenance phase did a episode on this, on the blue zones. Yes kind of debunked the myth of the blue zones um, but you know yes, it was a good one.
Speaker 2:That was as well, yeah um, looking at other areas in the world. Um, I did I share this last week of like the woman, um, who I can't remember what part of africa she was from, but but she was using, like a basket, you know, one of those like woven baskets. I didn't share this last week. Anyway, sorry, I hope that this kind of is like a good analogy.
Speaker 2:But speaking of like poverty and how we view poverty and poverty and mental health, right, so she was, she had one of those like baskets and she was using cow dung to make the basket like shinier and like to have longevity. And her whole point was like some people think that I'm poor, you know, but am I poor because I'm, because I'm using cow dung, because I'm using the earth to to make this basket last longer. When you're the ones who choose plastic that you rejuvenated back into the earth, you only use the cow to slaughter. I use the cow to pour back into, like our environment and to renew the energy, you know. And so I think that that's an important point of like society and like as Americans, how we navigate life is so fast, so complex, and our minds are like and minds and bodies are disconnected and then also like as humans. It's not we weren't.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit more than what we came here to do and so you know, I think that I think that that's just an important element of like culturally, we just navigate in a way that like makes our mental capacity and load beyond what I, I personally, have discovered is appropriate. So I've had to like slow down myself. And you know, steph, we've talked about like in the Black community, like radical rest you know, and allowing for rest and not trying to keep up with the capitalistic society, because those are the kind of things that lead to burnout and mental health crises for sure.
Speaker 1:I think that is a great place to stop for today. I would love any confessionals, any reactions, any ahas you had today.
Speaker 3:Um, before we wrap, I feel like this came up with my um parent story from last week, I think it was with where I wasn't seen at the doctor because I was five minutes late and and manika, you said that speaks to our society and that we're so scheduled and you know and so and how that doctor's office must run, in that you know five minutes late wrecks their whole schedule, which means that they're probably overscheduling and you know, does not really allow for a much, much give. And so it just reminded me of that because we talked about that um and I feel like, um, it's funny because I am very over scheduled, as we all know.
Speaker 3:But I feel like we, I what I'm doing big time it's hard because what I'm doing I'm passionate about, if that makes sense. So it's hard because I'm trying to do it all and it's like and you don't want to give anything up. I don't want to give anything up. Why? Because we need money.
Speaker 1:Capitalism, capitalism.
Speaker 3:You know like I need my full-time job to do. And I want my part-time job to do and I want my part-time job, yeah, and so there's that. You know, it's like I. I love what I do on the side. Quote, unquote. That's what brings me the most joy. Um, but we have to afford. You know, quinnies gotta eat and child care and child care and child care and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mine's not really an aha, but possibly a future episode. We didn't get to the fentanyl of it all or the overdose of it all, and I think that is tragedy that we're experiencing and I'd love to uncover that in this conversation as well of, like you know what these drugs are doing and why young people you know now that we, when we know this, are still um reaching for the fentanyl and um these drugs that are like deadly Um. I just I think that that's something for a later episode, like the addiction and all that stuff you know alluded to before and and what that means that we do as a support to also destigmatize, like addiction yeah, I love that cool guys.
Speaker 2:That was two compliments um, oh, which means I'm good for 2026 now too, actually no, because I have a birthday coming up and you're going to compliment me on my birthday too.
Speaker 1:No, I've already used up, like 2025 and 2026. It's going to be full on roast for your birthday.
Speaker 3:I'll compliment you.
Speaker 1:Thanks, don't worry I'll, I'll wear stuff down.
Speaker 2:All right, well, and now I'm in a mental health crisis. No, all right, well, and now I'm in a mental health crisis? No.
Speaker 1:On that note, thank you for listening to another episode of you Can Call Me Karen. Please leave us a review, like and subscribe. Wherever you listen. Follow us on Instagram and I don't know, maybe we're on TikTok. We are. You Can Call Me Karen, underscore pod. Yes, and please feel free to hit up our page to access all the links we talked about. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2:Bye bitches, bye, bye, Bye, bye.
Speaker 3:Bye, and they're all made out of tiki-taki and they all look just the same.
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