You Can Call Me, Karen
You Can Call Me Karen is caught in the middle—too young for Gen X, too tired for Gen Z. Hosted by Manni, Steph, and Karen, three sharp-tongued friends raised on dial-up tones and Dawson’s Creek, the show unpacks the pop culture that shaped the ‘90s and early 2000s. With wit and candor, they dissect the contradictions of coming of age in that era, never afraid to channel their inner Karen if it means saying the quiet parts out loud. No advice, just real talk: a bold, funny, side-eye-laced ride through nostalgia, modern womanhood, and the messiness in between.
You Can Call Me, Karen
Mojo Dojo Casa House Syndrome
Summary
In this episode of 'You Can Call Me Karen,' we kick off with some Karen stories where we realize Steph may be a bigger Karen than Karen, herself! We then delve into the complexities of female leadership in religious and spiritual spaces, exploring the intersections of feminism, spirituality, and community. We discuss the historical and contemporary challenges women face in these roles, the importance of redefining spiritual authority, and the need for a more inclusive understanding of leadership that values all contributions equally. The conversation also touches on the wisdom of aging women and the societal structures that often silence their voices.
References
https://www.instagram.com/p/DJwRQl7OC1X/?img_index=2&igsh=MXhnazdudzQ5bjdiOQ==
Pierce, Yolanda. In My Grandmother’s House: Black Women, Faith, and the Stories We Inherit. Broadleaf Books, 2021.
Bostic, J.R. (2013). Defining Mysticism and the Sacred-Social Worlds of African American Women. In: African American Female Mysticism. Black Religion / Womanist Thought / Social Justice. Palgrave Macmillan, New York. https://doi.org/10.1057/9781137375056_2
Suggested Readings:
- Starhawk
- Dangerous Old Woman
- Women Who Dance with Wolves
Keywords
female leadership, spirituality, feminism, religious spaces, women empowerment, patriarchy, mysticism, community, aging women, spiritual authority
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Hey y'all, it's Manny. Welcome back to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast. Today we are talking about female leadership in religious and spiritual spaces. This topic hit me hard after scrolling through a peculiar section on Instagram, which I will call the Female Pastor Pipeline. You know this space where women's preaching is either demonized or turned into meme content. I was struck not just by the comments but by the contradictions. Like, how do so many folks who say they're above faith also vote, post, and preach in ways that silence women, especially when women have been holding it down in spiritual spaces since forever. I'm ready to get doing to it, and I know my co-hosts are too, so let's go.
SPEAKER_05:Welcome. You can call me Karen.
SPEAKER_00:Little box.
SPEAKER_05:All right, everybody.
SPEAKER_06:Hi, Carrie. Hi. Oh my gosh. It's so nice to be here. My name's in the title, but like, you know. Hi.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, welcome. Welcome. We're happy you're here. Um, Steph, hello. How are you doing? I am doing great. Excited to be here. You're excited to be here too.
SPEAKER_06:Steph and I don't know what to do when you say hi to us. We're like, I know.
SPEAKER_05:I know. You guys are like, hey, I feel it.
SPEAKER_04:Um well, we're happy you guys are here because we're gonna talk about one of our favorite things today. The patriarchy.
SPEAKER_05:Mojo Dojo Casa House.
SPEAKER_04:That's how we're gonna, that's how that is our shadow, that is our um title so that we don't get shadow banned. Um but today we're still happening, but okay.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, because you guys, our following has increased. We now have four followers.
SPEAKER_04:Well, three now, but um, but no, welcome back to our uh podcast. Today we are going to be starting a series of discussions around um feminism with an unfiltered look at um today, an unfiltered look at women's roles in religious and spiritual leadership positions, whether you're churched, unchurched, spiritual, but suspicious, or just here to listen, we're digging deep into the power structures that shaped our sacred lives and who they still exclude. Um, but before we get into all of that, you know what we gotta do. We gotta see who my co-hosts be calling Karen.
SPEAKER_06:By the way, churched or unchurched? I love that.
SPEAKER_04:I love that too. I believe we're all in the latter.
SPEAKER_06:I am unchurched.
SPEAKER_04:I am unchurched. Sounds dirty, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02:It does sound dirty.
SPEAKER_01:But it'd be the truth.
SPEAKER_04:We're sinners. We're feminist. Um okay, so who's gonna tell their Karen story first? I can go first. Yay!
SPEAKER_02:Um, so do I need to say the date again?
SPEAKER_05:Or yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Probably probably because this one is also from the news. From I know mine last week was too, but it's been a crazy week in here in the United States um in the news. So this one goes out to um sh a senator from Iowa named Joni Ernst. Did you hear about this? I think so.
SPEAKER_04:I have not. I'm like weirdly on a social media hiatus and news. That's perfect. And it's an I don't know any more. Then we get live reactions. It's super happy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm happy to share this information with you. Okay. Um she, I believe, I don't have as much information as I did the last time, but um, because she's just my Karen of the Week. She just gets it boom, period. But she um I believe she held um I believe she held a town hall um where her constituents were questioning her about a piece of legisl legislation that is going through um, I think the house now, and it'll move, or maybe it's already passed through the house, but um the current administration is calling it the big beautiful bill, and apparent apparently it's cut not apparently cleared the house.
SPEAKER_06:It's in the Senate.
SPEAKER_02:It cleared the house. Okay. So it cleared the house, and it is going to drastically cut Medicaid. Um, I don't know, Social Security too, is that correct? Anyway, it's cutting a lot of stuff, and but Medicaid in particular. So her constituents were like, How could you do this? They were like coming at her, and someone said, like, we're gonna die, people are going to die. And she made a flip statement, like, we're all gonna die. And then at the and then she she like shut it down. So after the town hall was over, she doubled down and posted a video on social media that was like, she was like, I'm so sorry that I had to break the news to you that we all are gonna die, and maybe I should have been the one to maybe break the news of the tooth fairy.
SPEAKER_06:No, yeah, it's like it's she trying to not get re-elected, like what?
SPEAKER_04:She's not I was thinking of trying to be like Marjorie Taylor Green.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I was thinking of there was another one in the news this week of uh I I think it was a Nebraska senator. It was a man, uh not senator, um Congressperson. I think it was a man. It was a man. Um, and he was being similar to the man white man in Nebraska. I'm sure that's that comes as a real surprise. Um was being questioned about the big beautiful bill as well. And I don't remember they were leaning into him about one specific clause, and he was like, he was like, I if I had known that was in there, I would not have voted for it. And people are like, it is your job to know what is in the shit you're voting for. And there was like a bunch of those this week of people saying like Marjorie Taylor Green, she did the same as another. It's like, well, I mean, there's uh yeah, about 450 people who should know what's in this bill more than anybody else.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, that's a part of your responsibility while you're making government cuts to these federal workers who aren't doing their job.
SPEAKER_06:What'd you say? Yeah. I said we're literally voting for you and paying for you to know what's in this stuff that you're voting for.
SPEAKER_04:Not Nebraska's congressman ain't getting my vote.
SPEAKER_06:Well, the people who are complaining to him did.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it's nice to stay informed. Yeah, that's that's really terrible.
SPEAKER_02:And it just like that place of like this bill doesn't impact me personally. And so I don't give a rat's ass what you're saying or how it must make you feel, though the whole responsibility of you know, a politician is to vote in the best interest of their constituents. And so, and I j can't help but think about, you know, so many um conservatives who oftentimes like don't change their mind on a topic until it hits them personally. I think particularly like um LGBTQ rights and things like that until like they have a child or some family member who comes out and then they're like, Oh, I was so wrong, what was I thinking? And you know, and it's like you know, Medicaid being cut out. What was that impression?
SPEAKER_04:I kind of that's what made me giggle.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't like it.
SPEAKER_02:It just is it infuriates me. It's like you are not cut out to serve if you can't put yourself in the shoes of other people and you want to think about the benefit of the whole, not the individual. So you can go in for yourself.
SPEAKER_04:Which will also go into our topic for today, but they like to build their policy under the guise of Christianity and use the sacred text as their like reference for caring and making policy. And I think we're gonna talk about it. It's so contradictory to what the actual language is or the translated text, you know, and um, or they interpret it to kind of just feed a certain part of their um of uh their agenda, but they like take completely out of it the marginalized piece and the care for humanity at all. And so it is very infuriating to not only like hear the way in which she doubled down and the break of decorum from a professional standpoint, but also knowing like what their quote unquote values are that it they get to pick it, there is no standard there.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's so patronizing and condescending, you know, to to say like, well, we're all gonna die, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Um what a mess.
SPEAKER_06:Karen, what do you got for this week? I'm going lighter. Um, you guys were around this morning while I um full-on Karen with maybe a robot or maybe a customer service agent. But I was having some challenges with the software that we are currently using, and I couldn't get it to fix, and that made me frustrated. And so I was chatting with a customer service again, person, bot, who knows? And they were just being incredibly unhelpful. And so they kept like giving me links to things that might fix my problem, but it kept being the same freaking link. And so eventually I was like, Don't tell me you said the words. I didn't. I didn't ask for the manager. Is that what the word was like? Did you say? I said, um, this is not helpful. Yeah. And then something to the effect of like, I don't have time for this, and you need to email me a solution. And I just kind of like closed it. But my favorite part was this is not helpful. Yeah. So I can't, I Karen'd, but I Karen'd in writing, so you know, I'm uh still Karen. I'm a bashful Karen. Bashful Karen.
SPEAKER_02:You know what I've learned over this. Um, you know, now we're in season three, is that I am more Karen than Karen. For sure. It's really, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Like every time I'm like, it's about that to the manager, or I I reached out to corporate and I I clicked the report button.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Yeah. And when we do it, you're like, yeah. Yeah. Like you will like jump on board with us for you will you will never let them not.
SPEAKER_06:Let them not. I can't say I live by that philosophy. I've always been very passive, but I also am very aware that my name is Karen. And so it's like this constant inner battle of like not being who everyone expects me to be. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you were born to be a Karen, and I think that that's why you are in such conflict because you're not living up to your potential. Rise.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Rise. We could do a bit. Um, you know, when we're super podcast famous, where like Bob can like film me at a Starbucks, and I can just, I can just Karen, you know, and that could just be like a little bit. Yeah. Karen's in the wild.
SPEAKER_04:Let's do it. Bob, grab your phone. All right. Well, you heard it from my co-host. Those are your Karen's for the week.
SPEAKER_00:And little box.
SPEAKER_04:All right. So let's get into the juicy stuff. Um, as mentioned at the beginning, we are going to be doing a three-part series where we focus on um uh societal issues through the lens of feminism, which I think we already really do, but we're just going to use more of a working definition of feminism to kind of explore this content, I would say. You guys agree with me with that? Did you even look at your notes for the day?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_06:Manny, do you guys agree? Yep. Did you read your notes? Nope.
SPEAKER_04:And that, my friends, is called ride or die.
SPEAKER_05:Um we got you. We're on it.
unknown:We got you.
SPEAKER_05:We made it. We got you.
SPEAKER_04:Um, okay, so let's we had a conversation before we got on mic of like, let's just kind of broadly define feminism. Um, I don't, it's hard. And this, I do want you to like, if you disagree with this definition, you know we will. Yeah, like add to it, move it around or whatever. But um in the spirit of transparency, this is Chat GPT, because y'all told me you wanted this definition right before we got. Okay. So um broadly defined, um, and yeah, so if we if the chat bot is hallucinating, just call it out, okay? Broadly defined, feminism is both an intellectual commitment and a political movement aimed at ending gender-based oppression and advocating for equal white rights and opportunities for women. At its core, feminism holds that women and men are inherently of equal worth. And because most societies have historically privileged men, achieving gender equality requires deliberate social act action. As the scholar Bell Hook succinctly put it, feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression. Okay, so we'll just pause there for is that how we're feeling about it?
SPEAKER_02:Particularly the last line, just ending sexism or sexism, what was the other one?
SPEAKER_04:Um sexist exploitation and oppression.
SPEAKER_02:And oppression, because I feel like I like the idea of not necessarily I like the idea of dismantling the patriarchy as opposed to, you know, um, because dismantling the patriarchy is a little more inclusive um of like, you know, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So you're bringing me to the new t the term that it has evolved into um by Kimberly Crenshaw, who in 1989 coined the term intersectional feminism, which includes racism and sexism and oppression, um, and how that intersects to shape people's lived experiences. Yeah. Um, and I like that too. I think that it's important, and I this came up in what I was navigating through today of like feminism isn't hierarchical, of like now we're placing women at the top, right? Which I think, you know, we joked about the Mojo Dojo Casa House, but like I think that Barbie really did a good job of like showing that in the movie. Um, I I think that that is the common misconception when people hear the word feminism, which is why we decided to work with this def uh start the episode with a definition so we're all understanding that this isn't about placing women, you know, just because I have a piece of the pie doesn't mean you don't have a piece of the pie, which is like again, just a very patriarchal mindset and rooted in fear that like I and that I won't have enough.
SPEAKER_06:Power and money are a zero-sum game. Is that the right expression? Where it's like there's only so much, and so I have to hoard the power and the money so that other people can't have it, as opposed to or is a zero-sum game. I'm messing that.
SPEAKER_04:Girl, I don't know. I've heard that uh phrase for a very long time, and I never knew what it meant.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, Bayes, it it's it is or it isn't, I can't recall. Um, I'm getting mixed up right now, but it's about like there's not a finite amount of resources or um power or access or whatever. So but but we operate like the patriarchy operates with that mentality. So it's like I have to have all of the money or all of the power in order to like feel fulfilled, instead of the concept that if we all work together, there's more for all of us.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. So that's great. So I think, well, I definitely have more to say about that with this topic. So um I think we can transition into that now of like we want to, I think after having Lex on um and a couple of back and forth audio text messages to one another, we had talked about like where do women fit in this understanding of leadership and uh spirituality. And I was I I don't know if it's been my social media break or not, but when I typed in female pastors or women pastor into my search feed on Instagram, um I was so disappointed in um the results that popped up for me. And I'm thankful for once that my algorithm has hidden this from me. And I know Karen, you were like, I'm not even gonna touch this because I don't I want my perfectly curated content to stay where it is. I didn't I didn't click on it, I wouldn't. Yeah, and I would one star do not recommend. Um but you know it does it does open up for me an even greater awareness of just how massive this belief is that um men are the ones who should lead church. It made more sense to me of why 92% of black women voted a certain way and why the majority of white women didn't when I opened up um and this on my Instagram feed. And I will say, so that you don't have to do the research, this was led by women. It wasn't it wasn't men who were who were posting that um women don't have a place as pastors in the church. It was women who had this content. I will say I did see some men posting a big very homophobic responses to men who are um like pastor the the the husbands of women pastors. Um and it was pretty gross. Um so uh I think I had to shift away from that. I could not hold all that in my body. Like we just had an episode about mental health, and I just did not want to go down that path because it's unhealthy for me in consuming content. Um I found a lot of constriction in my body, and so I started to pivot and I went to um a couple of other sources that had been recommended to me that I've linked in here, references for books about like the aging woman and uh female wisdom. And that's what I found this conversation to really stem from is that like we don't we don't respect the aging woman. And with the aging woman comes wisdom and listening to your intuition, and we are so often stifled in many facets of our sci society from listening to our intuition, and so frequently we're directed to not listen to our bodies, our inner call, our divine healing. And it doesn't matter, like this is across all Abrahamic religions. Um and also in our society, the secular society, you know. So um these recent messages coming um prompted me, coming from the pulpit, and social media prompted me to question why authority asks women to abandon their inner knowing and sacred treasures. Um and in deeper practice I found this to be true of women and men alike, you know. Um, so there was one thing that I did find on Instagram that um said um there's a spell on men, there's a spell on women. And while we forget who we are, they built, they built empires on our amnesia. This isn't a love story, it's a jailbreak. And it reminded me of like Lex saying, like, our men are about to go through some stuff, you know. And um, it says, the spell on men is cut off your heart, call it strength, feel nothing, call it power, dominate, perform, provide, but never come home to yourself. The spell on women, mute your intuition, call it love, shrink your truth, call it peace, be wanted, be useful, be quiet, but never trust your medicine. So this episode I'm asking, you know, who were our spiritual guides before the Bible? And why did wisdom from women, healers, mystics, midwives, suddenly become suspect? And what happens when you trust your body, your voice, and your divine feminine knowing in a world that tells you not to? But before we get into like those deeper questions, I want to just pass it on to my co-host of like what are your overall responses and reactions to how social media is obsessed with the role of a pastor wife, with a self-righteousness, um mocking partners who are married to women pastors, like getting to define what preaching is.
SPEAKER_06:Um just want to hear how I had a few very immediate reactions as you were talking. Um, the first is uh there Julia Louis Dreyfus has a podcast where she talks with older women, um famous older women, but like on this premise of we don't hear, we don't want to hear from old women. Like you can be young and beautiful and say whatever you want. And as soon as you get a wrinkle, you need to go hide away for the rest of time. And her her whole thought is like, whatever, I'm I want to hear from old women who have experience and have something to say. And I haven't listened to all of it, but the first one was oh, Jane Fonda.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, I listened to that one. That one was good.
SPEAKER_06:It was um, yeah, it was so good, it was so good. So there's things out there, I guess, that I, you know, that um fight the kind of patriarchy on that. The other thing that came to mind as you were talking, because I don't have a lot of experience with the churched world. Um she's unchurched. I'm unchurched. Um however, I grew up going to a Unitarian Universalist church with my mom and my sister, and our minister was a woman and she was married to a man. Um, and um she was like so wonderful and and yeah, and so like when you talk about um hear, you know, not wanting to hear from female pastors, preach preachers, yeah. You know, whatever. Um, it's just like my only memory of going to church is with a female pre uh minister, and so like that's what I picture when I picture church, which I suppose is quite unique, but um, it was wonderful and I loved her.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't know that there was such a like faction of people who like would you know take the time to make these ridiculous videos about it even, you know. Like I know that I know that it's like I I guess I knew that there were parts of Christianity and other religions that did not allow women to be pastors, but um I also kind of it's just not really on my radar because you know, Steve and I, when we got married, we were married by a woman. She's a woman pastor at a church um as well. And um, I'm I know I'm unchurched, but you have in church, yeah. But I did grow up in church. I guess I did have um male pastors, but I had you know female small group leaders and um all sorts of stuff, and I felt like you know, we women um led small groups and worship teams and all that kind of stuff. So I it just I never felt like women weren't necessarily allowed. Um I didn't have that feeling as a when I was churched. I love this church unchurched thing, and I'm sorry if I beat it to death. I just think it's so funny. Um I do, I like it too. I love it. Um so anyway, that was and something that you said like like I don't what I don't know if that was a poem or like or the quote that you were like the spell.
SPEAKER_05:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it said like women, the spell on women is to like something about like shrinking themselves or like yeah, and this is just millennial me. The what popped in like popped into my head was uh Catty Heron um pretending to fail calculus to get Aaron Samuels to like notice her because at the end of you know, at the end of the movie, or not at the end, but like you know, Tina Faye's character was like the math meat, yeah. Oh, right before, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when she like she was like, it's funny because all of your work is right, it's just the answers are wrong, you know, and she you know, it's just like that damsel in distress, like
SPEAKER_06:Like the idea that we are supposed to kind of um cower to or serve or you know, whatever that idea that we are to lead, what you know, like your the question is where is that coming from or or whatever, but we those are the thoughts that popped up this week about how I used to like raise my hand for everything, and then I got stifled into thinking I shouldn't do that anymore. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I think to add to those wonderful points, one of the things that I the contradiction of it all of like, but yet here you are on social media preaching about how women can't preach. Yeah, right? And just because it's not in a sacred place that you defined as church within your community, doesn't mean you're not still engaging in the act of preaching.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh, we should go on these women's like pages and say, and the church says amen.
SPEAKER_04:Not only are we Karens, we're also internet trolls.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I'm down for it. Oh, what the church say amen. I think like that, I don't know much about the Bible. I just need to preface that with it this statement. But I do believe there is some passage in there about how we as humans are not to judge. Like that is, I think, God's job. And like we are not supposed to judge, but all we freaking do is judge and do it in the name of Christianity, which is so hypocritical. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I believe the passage you're looking for is called How can you see the rod in your neighbor's eye when there is a trunk in your own or something like that? It's like a palm or something like that. Yeah. And it's like judge not lest ye.
SPEAKER_02:It's like judge not lest ye be judged, is I think judge not less that you be judged. Right, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_04:Um I trust you.
SPEAKER_06:You know better than I do. I've just seen like little tidbits on that.
SPEAKER_04:And I think that's a good idea. And I think one of the things that I was, you know, I think this goes into what we were talking about last week with like the white women. Um and I think that I have seen more uh acceptance of black women preachers and black lead uh black women leadership. Um so I think that was one of the reasons why I was a little bit surprised by um that, and that I think this is good that we're having this conversation about like through the lens of feminism, because when I first pivoted from that, I went to um a couple of other books that talk about like women intuition, but I realized that they were um focused from the perspective of a white woman. And I was like, oh, isn't this funny? Like, we're like they're leaving out the black perspective, which was one of the like criticisms of the feminist movement in the beginning of like feminism. So I pivoted a little bit and went to some more um text that we'll link in our show notes that are from the perspective of black women, which the first one um I want to talk about here is um from J.R. Bostick, and her book is called Defining Mysticism and the Sacred Social Worlds of African American Women. And I just want to pull a little quote from that and we get our responses from it. So she says, throughout the history of Western Christian mysticism, there has been much debate regarding which is considered legitimate mystical experience or who should be labeled a mystic. Over time, the definition of the terms mystical and mysticism have remained constantly shifting social and historical constitutions. It um says that there exists an overt link between the knowledge gained through the mystical life and the authority, which could be claimed on the basis of that special knowledge. Uh yeah, so basically saying that the people in power get to determine who a mystic is, right? And those people in power traditionally have been um men. And I know we've talked about this of with like this is why we have to teach like colonialism, right? Is that like they the white people came and like had this book in this source and like taught it to black people, and black people um eventually started to interpret it in their own ways, which differs from like like a spirituality that the the white colonizers were using it for, you know, and so all the experience of a black woman spiritually, and and at least my experience in the church is different. Like I remember having a conversation with some colleagues when I worked in the private sector, and they were like, Well, Baptist is a form of prodigism, and I was like, No, Baptist is Baptist, like we are not even a part of anything that y'all are doing over here, like at least black Baptists in my church, you know. And uh it was really hard for them to like disconnect that like our our faith based off of our like mystical experiences is like completely different. And it doesn't make again, it doesn't make one better than the other. It just means that like I'm channeling and pulling from a very different source than um some of my Catholic and Protestant counterparts. I don't know if there was a question there.
SPEAKER_06:We're both like, go on. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So my question is when you think of us um a spiritual leader in society, what image or picture first pops up into your head? Uh the Pope.
SPEAKER_06:Ooh, Mother Teresa.
SPEAKER_02:I'm just gonna be able to do that. I don't know what I think about, I'm wondering, you know, because like Jesus and his disciples, you know, and like the books of the Bible, like the voice of who wrote the Bible were all men. Is there no, there is a is there a book written by women like from a woman's voice? No. So no wonder. I think we're done here. Crushed it. Yeah. And it's like um, you know, just in prophets, you know, Muhammad, Moses, like Abraham, it it's like always it's like you know, from a Christian standpoint, it seems as if God only spoke through men.
SPEAKER_06:Well, the spiritual women were called witches and then they were murdered.
SPEAKER_01:So sorry.
SPEAKER_06:Too much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:A little bit.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, okay, I'll take it back.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, no, just you don't have to take it back.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I will say whoops. I will say I did think of like earlier what you were talking about, Karen, like the um Salem witch trials and you know, like the crucible and like the you know, like all of that kind of stuff where women that that imagery did pop into my head earlier, and I don't know what like caused me to go there. And then you just said that out loud, and I'm like, wait, like Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I mean that's there's real history there. It was women women, it was initially women who were um mystics of some kind, seen as spiritual, had some connection, believed they had some kind of connection, uh, were preaching, and they were labeled witches, and like someone somewhere uh determined that the way to deal with witches was to burn them.
SPEAKER_04:And I heard something recently.
SPEAKER_06:Sorry, go ahead, finish. Well, and then I think that was just used as a as a weapon over the years to control women uh and instill fear in in order to um continue to control.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, yeah, I so I have two points there. One, I heard something recently that um I'm gonna have to look deeper into, but um someone I want to say on TikTok or something said that it was originally that these women who were deemed witches were actually supposed to receive land. Like they were women who were gone in yeah, in line to receive land. And they the language somehow changed around there that they were deemed witches, and so that so that they couldn't receive the land, they called them witches and burned them at the stake. Absolutely. So that they wouldn't have power. Yeah. And then that goes into, yeah, and that goes into what um, you know. I was gonna get into like a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Wait, I have another thought before we change that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, because I was starting to say, you know, the disciples and all the books in the Bible written by men and so on, but then when you think about some of the stories of the Bible, like um uh well duh Adam and Eve, um, Eve being the temptress, like the one who caused them to eat the apple, or when you think about like um this story I don't have down pat so people who know the Bible bear with me, but just like Sodom and Gomorrah and like the all the quote unquote sinful behaviors and women um involved. And so I feel like I feel like from a Christianity standpoint, this is just from my perspective, it seems like women are pinned as the downfall of morality or like the cause of or at the root of the temptress, you know, and all of the issues that you know, because because you know, uh based on Christianity, it's like you have a life of sin unless you believe Jesus saved you or whatever, and a life and and you have choice. And it I feel like the church it originated in the idea that women might be part of the the temptation to do like ha sinful nature, I guess, or that human nature, and I feel like women seem to be put at the root of that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I um was gonna say reminds me of podcasts with Brene Brown and Father Richard Rohr, who I will say Father Richard Rohr is like he is holy, in my opinion, and he is a spiritual leader who really challenges conservative beliefs as well as progressive beliefs, and brings me to a point of neutrality. And I remember him saying on uh the Brene Brown podcast of like the the myth of Christianity or the fault of theology right now is that everyone believes that humanity started or that Christianity, the the the essence of Christianity started when the Bible was written. And he was like, if you limit your God to that to those years, then you're limiting the power of God because what was God doing before the Bible was written? And that is where my research took me. That was the question that I have, right? Of operating from curiosity. So I listened, started beginning listening to this book, Starhawk, which is one of the ones that I'll reference in our show notes. And she goes through the history of how we actually were a more matriarchal focused society prior to the Bible. And she talks about how the word Hex actually has German roots, and it was um someone who lives between the human world and the natural world, someone who lives between the tame and untamed. And if we look at ancient um uh drawings, you'll see more drawings of like the vulva as like the sign of like the mother. And once it was like the society of um Sumer, once we um started to see more complex uh society and more war, that's when it began to change. And women became the or the the theology, sorry, the ideology and culture started to move from what it how did she say it? Um men have to accept their position um as a car, a cord in the war machine. And um obedience to authority was one of the highest values over obedience to your own inner self and your own wellspring of life. And this shifted religion from being about connection and celebration to being about a model that supports obedience. So then when you come home from war because you won, what is the prize? Or what is the prize of pillaging over somebody else's village? They're women, right? Because women weren't fighting in the war, and then what happens? We see more rape, we see more um slavery, violence, slavery, exactly. Exactly. So um, you know, it's like I know that there's a lot of phrasing around being awakened, and you know, it's like become like this dog whistle. Um, but it is something that I would highly encourage us to understand of like what is this system built upon, you know, what happened before the thing that we're existing in now that this became um normal, that this became the ideology. And um yeah, it's just really heartbreaking, you know, for men and for women, right? It's not just like that women are victim of this violence, it's that men also are victim of this violence and this idea that um I have to be obedient to authority in order to gain wealth and prosperity.
SPEAKER_06:You're okay, I'm gonna take us on a little tangent, but this um you just triggered a thought, and I feel like there's a connection here. So hopefully I'm not just coming out of left field. But I um my son really likes all things like nature, so we watch a lot of like National Geographic-esque TV. Um, and one of the things I learned was there's very few species. Humans are one, I think whales are another, um, where the female uh has menopause. So there is a portion of our lives where we are not able to give birth to have children. And the reason for that is that childbirth, the reason, like um, you know, scientifically, is that childbirth is very dangerous. And it in until modern medicine, women often died during childbirth. And that means that everything that women know and can teach to our communities is lost in that moment. So we have evolved to go into menopause. So if we make it through however many childbirths that we have, then we will not be able to have any more children and we can bestow our knowledge upon the next generation.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And um, and that's a pretty like magical thing when you think about it. Like our knowledge and our understanding of the world and our communities is so critical that we have actually evolved to preserve our bodies in order to pass that along. On anyways, I just think that's something that's kind of like, you know, I'm not a very spiritual person, I'm unchurched. Um, but uh there is something sort of divine about that, and we uh we have the tendency in a in a very patriarchal society to like ignore those signs, those like very natural um signs that we have something to offer more than just our bodies.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like when you say that, I'm like, that is not how women, aging women are preserved or treated or respected at all in our patriarchal society. And it's like everything is about how quote unquote gracefully you've aged, and they're really only talking about appearance. And um, and I feel like um, and then in general, just in the United States, senior citizens are not regarded the way other communities that's true. So like women and men just a like aging people are not veered as the wise um the way that other communities do too. But particularly women, you know, I'm just thinking about our like we don't want to hear from older women.
SPEAKER_04:Older women, yeah. I think that that's what when I said like Karen, I have some stuff to say about what you were saying about like capitalism and something. It was in the beginning of this episode, I believe, of like I think that's what I personally like feel like my next phase of life is in the work that I do is to remove these hierarchies from every facet of my living. So I think when I would what really upset me at the core is that we place so much value in the preacher, not realizing all the, like you said it, Steph, all the other different roles people play to bring church to community. You know, and and I think that that's the my core fight against capitalism and patriarchy right now, is that like, and I and I teach this to my students of like when you work in groups, when you work in community, like you know, you obviously you do have to have like an authority of authority, but that but you're you're giving uh you're giving it it is an exchange, okay? But there is no hierarchy. That person is no better or no worse than you. And once we learn to accept that, I think we will see a decrease in the mental health negative outcomes that we have in our society because your position as just is just as important as the preacher. That's what's missing from the conversation, right? Is that this person who is ushering, this person who's passing out bulletins, like every single piece makes up the community, and we are lost without any one of those pieces. Um, and people need to hear that they have a sense of belonging, right? That your calling might not be on the pulpit or it might be, or it might be outside of the church doing, you know, like sacredness. Uh, they have co-opted the term of sacredness and turned it into something so limited. Back to what Richard Rohr was saying, you know, and it's like, man, I I personally feel my higher power wants to exist like abundantly, you know, and I think that's what like really hurt me with some of the that's like my core wound, a collective wound that I think we all sense, but we don't really ever talk about is that the hierarchy in society that places people um and makes them feel insecure, inferior, or on the opposite spectrum of that superior, egotistical, narcissistic, right?
SPEAKER_02:What you just said, I feel like I talk about a lot, or um, as a coach, like everybody has a role um like on the dance floor, no matter where you stand, no matter what, like you bring value. And as soon as you get hung up on who is, you know, the star or the whatever, you lose the the goal and the focus. And so just because there's one person, you know, standing at the pulpit delivering the message doesn't mean that it's gonna that message is going to be received without the worship leaders, without the Bible study group, without the, you know, or um, I just felt like I could marry some of the things that you know talk about with my kids to what you just said, like I feel like that comes up a lot, is every role brings value.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Or like what we were talking about with the congressmen who, you know, who I think it was your explanation, Karen, of like, well, or both of yours, right? Like if you really like valued your constituents, then like it doesn't matter what your personal belief is, like we are part of a community, you know, and like one person or many people in our community are hurting right now, and like you are in a position to directly impact change, you you're supposed to translate that to other people who don't speak our similar language, right? And right now you're not working as a good translator, you're just completely feeling as though you hold power and that's it, you know. Let them eat cake.
SPEAKER_06:Um, yeah, it's like the patriarchy is all about power. Um and we have completely lost our sense of community, it feels like, as a result. Which is just kind of sad because it's like you have these little examples where um where there is community and like people are happy and you have a kind of a bigger purpose. Um it's what's that island that um Trump taxed where there's no people? Those penguins, they have a sense of community.
SPEAKER_02:Um I don't know anything about it, so I hate to bring it up because I you're gonna ask questions and I'm gonna be like, I don't know. But but what? I think there's a um I think a community in maybe Japan that operates off of um have you guys have heard of Ikiguy? Have you guys okay because they we introdu they introduced it to us as part of our um PD at school, but it's basically like um finding your purpose and like this community who s focuses on Ikigai um is like has the lowest like depression, the highest health rates, like whatever, because they're all have defined what their purpose is in their community, and um and so I like yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I'll I I feel like I maybe can look up something and link um to this because um it's such a collective, a collectivist society though, that I'm not surprised that that's effective somewhere in Japan in the US where we're individualists, like these things break down. I I equate it to business where um like the automakers tried to take the Toyota production system and make it work in the US, but it's all based on a collectivist like mentality and it just doesn't work for us because we're individuals, and so yeah, I I like either we need to adjust a bit and realize that maybe individualism is only good so far, um, or we need to find the things that work for that um, you know, that type of a society, but it does seem to conflict very much with uh community like oriented mentality, which feels like what we're missing these days.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting that this conversation was starting b because we're talking about um, you know, women leadership in in spiritual communities, and we and I feel like we found ourselves here, we have in previous conversations back to sense of community and and belonging. I mean, it just always comes back to the fact that capitalism and competition and you know, the patriarchy, like the structures that are woven into our society is what creates, you know, some of the not some of all of the things that are wrong with the world, you know, like the like we just talked about being overscheduled and we just talked about like I mean everything comes back to the fact that we are like built on this competition, capitalistic, um no sense of community. Um, because if that were the case, I don't know that we would be here, you know, having women post videos that women should be silenced and that lady's rolling out a piece of tape to cut, like what?
SPEAKER_04:Like that's just that's not even like kind or explain that because I don't think that people understand what you're because somebody in here didn't want to take the video.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that video that Monika shared that I bravely clicked on was it was like women who want to be pastors. Um, I don't know if it's like I have something for you or here's whatever, but she like stretched out a piece of tape and she was like to cover your mouth. Like, like what? Like that's evil, actually. That's that's handmaid's tale. It's handmaid's tale, which I'm completely immersed in right now. You guys are sick.
SPEAKER_06:Sick. Um, we just are preparing for no potential future.
SPEAKER_04:I refuse to live in fear. I wouldn't, I'm I'm way more free than that. Um, I think that we're gonna have to wrap up, but I would love to end with a quote from Dr. Yolanda Pierce, who I believe is a divinity professor at Howard University and wrote the book My Grandmother's House. And she reminds us that there's no hierarchy in holiness. She writes about how the kitchen table is just as sacred as the pulpit, because that's where black women broke bread, told stories, passed down wisdom, and met God. She says sacredness is not bound by buildings or ordination. It lives in testimony, in touch, in tears, in tenacity. Dr. Pierce challenges the ideas that theological authority doesn't come solely from degrees. She calls her grandmother, her first theologian, flipping the entire conversation around spiritual hierarchy and asking, who taught us how to live in faith? Yeah. I thought that was so beautiful. Yeah. So I I love this conversation. And I think, you know, when it comes to restructuring and reframing, it's just, you know, one of the reasons why I love doing this podcast is this is just a reminder that it all starts with me. And I get to define who a spiritual leader is. I get to define who um uh I'm I'm going to uh who gives me this tenderness, who gives me this holiness, right? And it's not limited um to certain particular uh sections or people. Um it is way more abundant than what the masses might want to convince us to do. And part of deconstructing um white supremacy is understanding that when I close my eyes, I don't just have to see Jesus as a spiritual leader. That person can be a black woman, it can be an indigenous woman, it can be the two women who are reflecting nods back to me, right? Um, and that's where I get my freedom.
SPEAKER_06:That's right.
SPEAKER_04:So, anyway, any last minute. Any last-minute confessions from you all before we break for today?
SPEAKER_06:Just that it's apparent I am Monika's spiritual leader. You can just say it. We've all been waiting to hear it.
SPEAKER_04:Well, there are spiritual leaders and spiritual devils, so I would leave that up to you which one you I think we all know where I fall. You need this, you need the darkness just as much as you need the light. That's right. So being of light, my little angel Stephanie.
SPEAKER_03:The one who's like truly the Karen of the group is the angel.
SPEAKER_04:You wear many disguises. The devil wears many disguises. No. Any last minute.
SPEAKER_02:No, just like kind of I'm still kind of pondering on what what I realized. And um I I feel like I've said before, like I think I'm maybe I said this exact thing when I think about the United States response to COVID. Have I said this to you before? And how the we were supposed to stay inside wear masks, and how how the whole, you know, people like, don't tell me what to do. And and you know, you think about other countries that just, you know, what was it, sheltered in place. They wore their masks for as long as they could. And the United States, it was just this big argument, you know, even though science was saying, you know, if you cover your nose in your mouth, then maybe we won't be spreading germs. And like, you know, just c all common sense went out the dang window because everybody felt so compelled to do what they wanted. Um, this individualist, you know, um, and then it would be came from a business perspective. Well, you know, my customers don't want to come into my restaurant and have to wear a mask until they start eating. And who wants to come to the, you know, and so it's losing money. I'm losing money, is and that became more important than the community and the health of our um our people. And I feel like that's somehow we got here when we're talking about spirituality. Um, I don't know how we got here, but we are, and I feel like it happens over and over again.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't know how we got here either. Actually, I do. It's how we all know it.
SPEAKER_06:Slavery not a chant you expected to hear on your Sunday morning.
SPEAKER_04:I was like, I was gonna say it when Karen was talking. I'm like, it's because we never addressed slave, we ne we have not healed from slavery. We have not. And we refuse to. We refuse to heal from slavery. And what once once we're ready to accept that, then we will evolve, I think. That's just my prediction. I don't know. All right, Karen made a face. I think she has to get on a call. She's like important or something. I don't know. Steph and I were like, so do you have another hour in you? No, I don't. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us this week on You Can Call Me Karen. Um, please don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us wherever you listen. And um, if you miss us between now and our next episode, drop by and leave us a comment on Instagram at you can call me Karen underscore pod and on YouTube and TikTok at you can call me Karen. We love you for listening. See you next week, bitches.
SPEAKER_00:My bitches, and a blue one, and the yellow one, and they're all made out of chicky tacky, and they all look just the same.
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