You Can Call Me, Karen

Disney Princess Syndrome

• Manni, Steph, Karen

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Summary

In this week's episode, we delve into the impact of Disney on perceptions of femininity and gender roles, exploring the complexities of Disney princesses and their representation in animated films. We discuss our personal connections to Disney movies, share our favorite princesses, and reflect on the contradictions present in Disney's portrayal of women. The conversation emphasizes that while Disney has its flaws, it also brings joy and nostalgia, allowing for a nuanced discussion about its cultural significance. In this engaging conversation, we explore the multifaceted themes of Disney characters, their real-life inspirations, and the representation of feminism in Disney princesses. We discuss the evolution of female characters in Disney films, the subliminal messages conveyed through these stories, and the importance of imagination and representation. The conversation culminates in reflections on the impact of these narratives on personal identity and societal expectations, emphasizing the need for open discussions about the messages conveyed to younger audiences.

Keywords

Disney, feminism, Disney princesses, gender roles, childhood, nostalgia, representation, animated characters, cultural impact, storytelling, Disney, feminism, princesses, representation, characters, movies, subliminal messages, imagination, evolution, culture

References

https://harvardpolitics.com/femininity-disney-princesses/

https://tjhenigsman.medium.com/feminism-and-disney-a-deeper-look-into-the-disney-studio-and-the-women-who-defied-expectations-e406b5fadfac

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKshupWvKIi/?igsh=OGt0cnJkZGh5YTlp





Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!

As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.

SPEAKER_00:

Little Little Fox and the Green Little Fox And the blue one and a yellow one and the little and the green.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you ever pretend you were a mermaid? Have you ever wished a handsome prince would come save you? Do you find yourself humming the catchiest Disney princess ballads seemingly out of nowhere? Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon? I know I can answer yes to all of the above. Well, maybe except the wolf part, and I'm sure many other women and men out there are nodding along. Disney was a staple in my household growing up, and I'm realizing it had a substantial, uh subliminal impact on the way I saw femininity and gender roles over the years. In this week's second episode on feminism, we will be discussing the Disney princess. So gather up all your forest friends, have Mrs. Potts pour you a cup of tea, and join us for this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen.

SPEAKER_00:

Little Bob.

SPEAKER_02:

Hi. Welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello.

SPEAKER_02:

I am Karen. That was my lovely co-host Manny. Say hello again.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm a bad guy. I um never know how to respond to you.

SPEAKER_03:

Um give me your greenest little do your little nineteen twenties. Do it. Do it.

SPEAKER_05:

Steph, you're muted. She I just saw her mouth moving like we try that again.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you guys continue while I paused? Continue what? Oh, good. Great. Let's keep going. Oh, okay. I glitched and you guys apparently kept going. No, we were okay good. So did we say hello to Steph yet?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, hello. There you go. Mani, I love that you were a bad guy because Quinn um loves Spidey and she's always like, I got your loot. I got your loot. Yeah, the loot. And so Steve was like, you know, you need like a bad guy nickname. And so we call her Quinny Biscuits. And she's obsessed. Like she, anyway. Now we're gonna do it. She's bad guy's little bad guys. Quinny biscuits, watch out for your wallet.

SPEAKER_05:

Quinny biscuits.

SPEAKER_02:

Maxwell went through a serious spidey phase.

SPEAKER_05:

So yeah, we're in the spidey phase too.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's household firm. Oh man. Do you mean it's gonna make a comeback? Because I am glad it's gone. I like it.

SPEAKER_05:

Our kids are at different. I don't know about comebacks. It's just that our kids are at different ages.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, okay. Well, somehow on that note, I am super excited for this week's episode. We are, as hopefully our listeners are aware, doing a series on feminism. And for those who know me, you know I can talk feminism. But I get the joy of covering the topic of Disney princesses. Um, and this week I really wanted to rip up Disney. Like it was like my feminist goal, but I just couldn't. And so before we dive into why, we need to hear from my lovely co-hosts. This week, ladies, who you calling Karen? Who you calling Karen? Who you calling?

SPEAKER_01:

You know what? I, as promised, I think it was our last episode or the episode before. Um Manny shared her Karen of the week, the woman who um inserted herself by saying that you weren't allowed to use the phrase weird animal. Yeah, yeah. And I told you I had a story similar, but I didn't have enough details to share it yet. So that's gonna be I'm gonna, that's my Karen. Um, it happened uh not that long ago. Yeah, here in the town that I live. Um, my husband works for the city, and they did a mural in the middle of the city, and it um Westerville is the town I live in, and it has a role in the Underground Railroad. There's um oh that's cool. Yeah, some really there's some historic spots in the city. Um, they opened a new park that's going to like do a tribute to the Underground Railroad, and um, and so anyway, there's a mural and it kind of features black people who fought along the Underground Railroad, and it's a pretty cool mural, beautiful, but a woman reached out to the city of Westerville um challenging them because the artist of the mural wasn't black. Oh, and it while that's a very that's a good challenge and a good question, and that would have been smart, but it's interesting because the woman who brought it to the table was a white woman. Just can't help ourselves, just can't, and it just um I just felt like when you told your story, it kind of reminded me of that, in that, you know, and maybe this is that is actually the perfect time, you know. You're reaching out to your city officials. Um, you know, we were saying you know, she wasn't coming to a black person and saying, you can't do X, Y, and Z. She's coming to her community and saying, Hey, can't we? Um, and obviously, you know, the stories told from a city employee who, you know, they're like, when you're challenged, you know, sometimes you can come become defensive. And so maybe maybe the the Karen in the story is the city, but um, but it's just two sides, yeah. There's always two sides. And so I like I struggled with this story, but I felt like I thought it was a good and interesting point that you know, maybe even not giving the chance for the black community to speak out and say it, you know, like you want to be first, and um, that kind of thing. So anyway, that was the wait, what do you mean she wants to be first? Like she the first to say, you know, I I'm the one who noticed that the artist wasn't, you know, everyone's like celebrating this uh mural. I think there was like a progress thing that was going on of like as it was being installed and stuff, and um it's just interesting, you know, that there wasn't room for someone else to to come forward and and you know, maybe there were um black people in the community who would have liked to um to bring it to their attention with some context and some history and some you know what I mean. Um so it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_05:

And it's like this is all great, but wait, but like I know that like we are struggling with like um you know all the division in the world, and this is so great that we're celebrating this, but this one tiny tiny, tiny detail must be addressed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's it reminds me, I went to um um oh, Berlin for work last year, and I got a day like before we started to do a little tour, and there is this um monument. Oh gosh, it's like the worst name for a monument, in my opinion. It's like the it's like the monument to the murdered Jews of Europe or something like that. Like as many words as you could fit. It's very German in that respect. So it doesn't translate well to art. Maybe, yeah, maybe that's part of it. But there was, it's like the same thing. So the artist was Jewish, it's uh totally um like interpretational or whatever, it's like abstract. And it's like these huge concrete blocks, like this, like I I I'm not doing a good job of explaining it, but it's just large concrete blocks, that's all it is. And they put this coating on the blocks so that um you can't like graffiti them because they were worried about you know this this monument. Turns out the coating that was put on these blocks is made by a chemical company that supplied Nazi Germany in World War II. And so, but apparently any company in Germany, some like that's been around for more than a couple of decades, has ties. So, so there's like this like the apparently the Jewish community of Europe is like you either like it or you absolutely hate it, and there's like no in between. Yeah. And it's like, gosh, all of the right intentions were there, and the impact is still so broken, you know? It just made me think of that stuff. It's like you can't win. You just can't win.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that you can win. I think that the buttons don't pick that company. Yeah, that, but like it just means like what it just means that people have to take a deeper look into their community, you know. Like in Steph's case, like, you know, you are right outside of Columbus. I'm sure there's some brilliant black artists out in Columbus, um, but in Westerville, maybe there's not, you know, like it's it's like in our community, this this is the point, is that like those genocides completely um like dem like deteriorated the culture that originated in that site? And so like maybe the question isn't why didn't you get a black artist? Maybe the question is how do we bring more black people into this community? And why are there so few, you know? Maybe the question isn't why did we use this? Uh, but like, how can we bring in more Jewish heritage and culture so that they can make the art that we're looking for, you know? And that's the effect or affect of historical events that were so tragic, you know. And so when people are like, be woke, be woke, like it's not be woke and notice that this was done. They be woke and notice that this was lost in every facet of society.

SPEAKER_02:

You're so good at this, Nanny. Gosh, bloss your heart with love.

SPEAKER_05:

Um, okay, so my Karen, well, you're why you're giving two compliments, because I'm the Karen, I think, this week. Yes. Um, so as been told on this podcast, I have three children, which means three times twice, thrice the amount of group text chains that I am on, not just for the classroom, but also for sports and extracurricular activities. And I am just in a place right now where I am totally desensitized to group text messages. Um, not the ones that we're on, obviously. It's like good save. We're both like, you can call me Karen. And that's my point, is that like I want to reserve the group text chain for that. Those interactions with people who I can't see daily, or who I'm not trying to make some decision for a teacher's gift, you know. Like, I just want to, I don't want to be so attached to my phone for conversations that could be had over email or you know in real life. In real life. Um and so it's a lot, it's a lot. Sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and I have like a hundred miss text messages.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_05:

Um before nine o'clock, you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like I didn't see them, sorry.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, and and and the truth is I didn't, and I and I really need somebody to like summarize the conversation for me. So I'm like, okay, there's a lot of likes here. Like sometimes it's just like, okay, we have to do this thing. And so, like, who wants to do it? And it's like, wait, couldn't you do that during through an email so that you know we don't have this reply all feature on the group text, you could just reply to one person in an email. Like, so I'm like testing this out, like if next year during back to school night, like I'm gonna say something to the class moms. Like, I'm putting this out to the universe right now.

SPEAKER_02:

You guys let me know if I'm being I think I feel like moms would appreciate someone saying something. Okay. And uh and dads, by the way.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, and dads. Um, because they're also left out, like that's also my point is that like all these are getting filtered through to the moms, and then now I have to do an additional step of communicating this to my husband, you know, of like uh through looking through the text message and trying to figure out what was actually decided. Then now I have to take another step to communicate to this guy, like, okay, so this guy I think this is what's happening.

SPEAKER_02:

This guy who lives in my house.

SPEAKER_05:

This random stranger who produced.

SPEAKER_02:

I I get so frustrated because like I get automatically added to these things sometimes. Yes. And Bob is like the primary, you know, day-to-day. Yeah so like why not give him? I even if on school forms, if I put Bob's name as like the first point of contact and mine as the second point. They call me every time. Yes, and Bob gets so mad. Rightfully so.

SPEAKER_05:

I get upset too. I'm like, I put Luke for a reason, you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah, just like go down the list, people on the list.

SPEAKER_05:

So anyway, my Karen is that their Miles graduated from preschool and there was one text that came in after graduation that I was like, okay. And then another text came in, and I removed myself from the chat.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, you channeled Steph this time. You stuffed that text. Yes. Mika Rosa has left the group chat. Bye.

SPEAKER_04:

Bye. And nobody.

SPEAKER_01:

I was like, I don't give a fuck about kindergarten Facebook group. Okay.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's so funny because I was gonna say, what about a Facebook group?

SPEAKER_02:

Because Steph loves her Facebook.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I mean, our studio uses them a lot for communication and stuff, and then you know, there's one post and then there's comments underneath, and you can you know go straight to the one place and see, you know, what questions people have about that topic. And I feel way more organized because of it. And it's not a text message, and I just see a badge that I know that there's something out there for me to look at, and I can look at it when I want.

SPEAKER_05:

And yeah, um yeah, like the thing with the group text is that like you can't go back and filter right when you want to, when you're ready to actually execute, you know, and so it just everything you either have to know in that moment and have additional organizational system, or you know, it just it it just makes it more challenging. So I mean I'm not against the group Facebook, but like I don't I I don't have Facebook, so that's why I'm uh so like I don't care, but like I just I don't need that communicated to me in another group text. Like then just I'll just find it on Facebook. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Email would no, you need it in six different places so that you can just be totally inundated with information at all times.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, exactly. Totally attached to my social media at all times.

SPEAKER_03:

Because I am AI.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm no longer a bad guy, I'm AI.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, on that note, those are your Karen's for the week.

SPEAKER_00:

Little Ba.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Um, I wanted to keep this week pretty light, considering we're talking Disney princesses. And while this topic is about animated characters, I started preparing by reading a few articles, and I realized that this can get kind of heavy, kind of fast. So there's talk about like Walt Disney, like the Walt Disney, his relationship with women, how he perceived them, how he treated them in the workplace, um, and how some of that manifested in the movies themselves, particularly the earlier movies. There's definitely a lot of talk about which characters are quote positive or quote negative for the feminist movement, or even why Disney is an all-out bad representation of women for young girls. But at the end of the day, I still really love Disney movies. Like anything. I'm not, I'm not like a uh Disney World like fanatic or anything, but like I love the movies. I love the movies. Um, I think like anything in this world, and and like we've talked a lot about, it is imperfect. The characters are can be flawed, the storylines have their challenges as well, but there is something magical about it all that I genuinely love. And it made me realize that that like fits perfectly within a lot of the themes we discuss on a regular basis, that more than one thing can be true at the same time. Just because some Disney movies don't represent women in a way that I would prefer doesn't mean that there isn't entertainment in the art or um that there aren't good nuggets along with the bad. And so I am working on getting comfortable with that polarity, and I didn't want today to be hyper focused on um a lot of like allegedly and rumors about what you know the Walt Disney company was like in early days because we weren't there. So today I thought I I want to dig into who are our favorite Disney princesses? Which movies and princesses do we love? Certainly, which don't we love? I'd love to understand why. Um, and I have a few kind of backup questions to like discuss the feminine um or the feminist kind of theme throughout, but let's start by just like throw out who is your favorite Disney princess.

SPEAKER_05:

Wait, Karen, do you feel very liberated by saying I love like I could tell something came off of your shoulders, like you're like, this is who I am.

SPEAKER_02:

It's funny, like I wouldn't have said that um whatever seven years ago, but in COVID with uh then two-year-old, yeah, we paid for that Disney Plus, whatever it's called. Subscription. Subscription, thank you. And um and watched your life all of yeah, it was my babysitter for approximately six weeks when like everything was shut down. Yep. And holy shitballs, I love Disney. Shitballs. We watch, we watched Moana on repeat for literally about six weeks. Maxwell like loved it. As did I.

SPEAKER_05:

And I'm seeing it's funny because like every season we kind of have a theme, and I'm seeing this rooted in a lot of our or threaded in our episodes of contradiction. Like when we talk about like being a millennial is living in contradiction, being the middle child, like too like uh too young for this, too old for that, right? And very similarly in this regard of like, yes, I understand there, or what we just opened our Karen stories with, right? Of like, I understand that some of these things are problematic, but also like can we just have a little piece of joy? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'll talk about the things I don't like about Disney, of course, but Karen's like let's start with the positive. I do have my problems, but both things can be true.

SPEAKER_05:

Um, Steph, do you want to go? Yeah, look at that!

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I do want to go.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I I feel like as a millennial, we like grew up in the golden age, I believe, of Disney. And I feel again, like I said before during our millennial episode, that we're truly blessed and highly favored. Um I my favorite um Disney princess is Jasmine.

SPEAKER_02:

Jasmine's a tricky one for me, but yes, I feel that.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh God, here we go. She asked the question, then when we answered, be like, okay, we'll be able to have a problem with that now.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

But I love Jasmine. I'm like, I wanted to be Jasmine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel like, you know, it's interesting because like as a kid, I didn't think about it this way. But as an adult, I'm like, so she is like set up for arranged marriage. Yep, see steps going there already. But she kind of puts up like a fight a little bit, and I felt feel like she has had expectations, there's standards, she was, you know, dismissive of many um before she met Prince Ali. And I liked that she was very uh discerning and you know, like I'm so gullible, and I guess she was a little bit, but she had questions like, are you you know, I don't know. She just had this look in her eye, like, you're full of shit, kind of. I don't know. I liked that she was um there was a little strength behind her. Um one of my favorite scenes was them walking towards Jafar. Um, you know, like her dad is like with his round belly, and she's like glaring, and you know, I don't know. She just there's a fierceness about her. Yeah, I love her.

SPEAKER_02:

I think you started with a really interesting one because there's a lot of these movies that have been remade into like the real life versions, you know. So I'm curious. Did first of all, did you see the real life?

SPEAKER_01:

I did, and I don't really remember it very well. Is that weird? Like I think I saw it in the theater, and I don't remember my feelings around it, but I know I saw it.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I yeah, I think well we can talk more about it with others as well, but um there were very intentional choices that I felt Disney made to uplift some of the female characters when they redid some of those. Um and I think they did more of that, like what you're describing of her, like kind of hard-headedness and um desire for independence. I feel like they played that up even more in the real life one. So it's interesting when you watch them back to back, you can see how maybe some of those ideas changed over the course. And that that one wasn't even that old, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

That's also it's also interesting to me because when you first posed this question, my answer was not a Disney princess, it was the Lion King. It's like my favorite.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but that's not a princess.

SPEAKER_05:

Which is what I said before I said that answer. Let's put on our listening ear. I heard you, but that's why I didn't respond with that, and I'm going to make my point now. Which is that Jasmine is one of the only princesses that is not like the story is about like Aladdin, like the movie is Aladdin, you know, like it's more male-centered and focused of a Disney movie than the other princesses that we still talk about. Oh, is that interesting, Karen? Jesus.

SPEAKER_02:

So who's your favorite Disney princess?

SPEAKER_04:

So my favorite Disney princess would have to be Ariel. Um, and I'm rocking my mermaid locks today.

SPEAKER_02:

In honor of this episode.

SPEAKER_05:

In honor of this episode. That's the only reason why I got them installed, not because it's a protective style and I live by the beach.

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean that's not what you told me yesterday.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I'm inspired by Ariel. Because you want to be a mermaid. Got it. I want to be a mermaid.

SPEAKER_05:

And my favorite scene, my friends from high school will know this. My favorite scene is when she's on the rock. I knew it. I don't know when. I don't know how. I knew it instant enough. Me and my friend Blair used to like, yes, we used to like act that part out in like the 11th grade, by the way.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, good, good, good.

SPEAKER_05:

Perfectly. I was not nine. I was driving a car.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you ever try to like swim with your legs as if they were a fin?

SPEAKER_05:

Does James Brown like to get down? Is Sebastian a lobster? No.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

No, no.

SPEAKER_04:

The crab. We were like, no, no.

SPEAKER_02:

God, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_05:

So then I guess we never did it.

SPEAKER_02:

Is Sebastian a lobster?

SPEAKER_05:

Which is also one of my favorite scenes, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh. Oh. Yeah, he's a great character. Now, you picked one that also has a real life version. Did you see that one?

SPEAKER_05:

I did not, but I know all the controversy surrounding it.

SPEAKER_01:

I haven't seen it either. And I thought that I was gonna get shamed and scolded.

SPEAKER_05:

You guys but you guys, like uh okay, can we take into account here that I'm not I'm not 17 years old just rolling up to the movie theaters right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Like when I it's at it's on your apps at home or whatever.

SPEAKER_05:

And I'm also not pulling it up on home and just watching by myself, you know. You should like if my kids are uninterested in it, then I'm not gonna watch it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, but you should watch it.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really good. I kind of forgot about it and I feel bad because I know that, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

There was a lot of things. Isn't that her name? I um I don't know what it is. I mean, isn't that her name? It's um Hallie Bailey. Bailey Bailey. Yeah. I'm like, it's close, but that's not quite right. Hallie Bailey, yeah. And she is so. So like so good. I thought she was amazing. She her voice is a fire. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I need to watch that one.

SPEAKER_05:

I saw one like uh on an award show or something, her perform a song, but oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember like it was right when that came out, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So um okay, so Jasmine and Okay, also wait, pause.

SPEAKER_05:

Shaming us for not watching these movies when we have a list of pages of movies that you've never watched. Kettle, kettle, black, black. Okay. Okay. Is Sebastian a lobster?

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

And the new, and the new and renowned animated film or live action. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Listen, um, I it turns out this is the perfect episode for me because I have seen all of these videos.

SPEAKER_05:

You love Disney.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh turns out I love Disney. Yeah. I had uh no idea what passion I had for this topic. Um okay, so I can't pick just one personally. Um, and we're gonna leave it at that. I think Ariel would have been like my gut first reaction, but then like I love Moana for so many reasons. Um it's beautiful and like she's the best, and there's no love story, which I as a feminist really like. I just I like that they're not forcing a love story onto something that has nothing to do with like uh romantic love. Um, but I want you both to think like or to tell me what you think about Jasmine and Ariel um that you like relative to feminism, and are there things you would change in order to send better messages, particularly to younger girls?

SPEAKER_05:

So just a little clear, because like Steph and I were talking before of like the definition of feminism, and we were talking about your articles that you posted in that you'll will attach to the link of this. So, like in one of the articles, it more talked about femininity versus feminism. So, are we talking femininity or are we talking like feminism systemic stuff?

SPEAKER_04:

Because yeah, that would be a whole both patients.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I do think both, because I do think there is a lot of discussion around the physical appearance of Disney princesses, which is valid, and even over the years they've said like we're gonna make them more realistic body shapes, and like Moana's ripped, like she's got slightly thicker legs, and she's gorgeous, so like calm down, Disney. Um, but then there's also the topic of like gender roles when and I think in there's definitely a progression of you know, the early like Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, it's very like damsel in distress, and um you're you know, like pretty and helpless kind of a vibe. But are I guess I want to discuss do we see any of that theme continue even into the modern Disney era? Are they there? Are they not there? You know, have they have they fixed some of that? Um, because I think that had an impact on like me over, you know, like of what I was what I thought was important as a woman and like I had to be pretty and I had to look a certain way and whatever. And so um curious if you think that still exists in Disney. Um is it maybe to a lesser degree? Yeah, I want I want to hear all of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I guess like when I think about Jasmine, right, like and she I what I what's interesting is she's in this like arranged marriage like situation, but the efforts put to impress her, like it was like she had to approve, you know, like that scene like when he's coming down the um on the on um the elephant aboo version the elephant version of Abu and the big parade and she like rolls her eyes and like walks away like it just made that don't impress me much, you know what I mean? Like I she gets to decide if he is worthy, kind of like I know that like she has to like she does end up having to get married and and stuff, but I felt like she did have a little bit of say, um, and I felt like you know, like part of the story was her dad just being so frustrated, like we we have tried to find the the right person from you, and you just keep turning them down, and you know, like the so there's like yes, she's a princess, and yes, she's arranged arranged to be married, and um when you talk about femininity, femininity like anemone I live in an all woman, you know, like um you know, beautiful, all that kind of stuff. So I feel like there's a was a strength around her, even though you know she was trying to be pursued or whatever. There was kind of like a you need to rise to the occasion, sir.

SPEAKER_02:

I do think I'm gonna play devil's advocate a little bit today. But I do think someone's got to. I don't even just insert that. Um, I I think the other side of that coin though is that she had a father who was open to her being, you know, independent and strong and kind of like quote allowing that behavior, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

So but look at how they depicted his her dad, like a little bumpy guy. So yeah, like, and that's why they brought in Jafar, you know, as like kind of bumbling and yeah, person to be like his advisor because he that thinking was like that was the part that was like maybe you shouldn't be so open, and here's Jafar to help show you why.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's interesting that you say that because it's kind of like it really speaks to what we're talking about when it comes to feminism in that we have to dismantle the systems in place that stop women from having power. And in her case, the Sultan allowed her a voice. I know, and I know that's tricky to say, like he allowed her, but he did because he's a sultan, and so it's like it's more proof, I guess, if you're talking you know, trying to draw parallels to feminine feminism and society and the patriarchy and stuff, that when women have a voice and they have a say, and there's freedom to you know, she had the freedom to say no, um, in that part particular regard. Um, so it's like that's I guess what we're what we would quote unquote be fighting for, but then it causes trouble.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like that's kind of the subliminal message that you could see. Like when you give us a little bit of rope, we cause trouble, and Jafar almost takes over and the world almost ends, and on and on.

SPEAKER_01:

Was that her fault?

SPEAKER_05:

Right. I was wasn't assaulted. If she would have just gotten married, he's again a bumbling.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, he picked Jafar in the first place, but I I do I am intentionally trying to like play devil's advocate, but you could see how like you know, some of these subliminal messages are there around you give a little bit of rope and then all this shit goes down. If she would have just married the first guy I picked for her, we wouldn't be in this situation.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh my gosh, sorry, but something just came to my mind. Speaking of subliminal messages, remember when on the VHS you could go back and like hear yes. I know exactly what you're talking.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Steph, are you are you you know teenagers?

SPEAKER_02:

No, what no, don't say whatever you're gonna say. There was a few um movies that they hid some inappropriate things in.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, and one of them was in Aladdin, where they're like, Yeah, take off your clothes. That's what that was the line.

SPEAKER_01:

It was like good teenagers, take off your clothes. Oh I forgot that part.

SPEAKER_02:

It was like yeah, oh did you ever see the little mermaid one?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you see the one in the Lion King? No, no, um like heard about the one, but I never saw it. Oh, I've seen it like uh Simba like plops down in the grass and then all the like flower petals like go in the air and then it forms swords sex.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard that, but I never could see it. I'll show it to you. I'm sure it was like they got these things in early versions, and then at some point they figured it out and fixed it. Um, but the little mermaid one was like the most obvious. A poker on the priest of all people.

SPEAKER_04:

Which is like, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

What are we even talking about?

SPEAKER_05:

Little messages. You'll never know what it's like to rewind a VHS type. I know.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, we talked about cassettes the other week, too. These poor, like anybody who is under 30 listening to us is lost now.

SPEAKER_05:

Or the um, oh my gosh, I just sent you guys this. That when you were saying stuff that we're in the peak, uh, we are in the golden age of Disney, and the um Instagram that I just sent you about the guys reacting to the new Disney.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah. Oh my gosh, I put the new Disney intro music. I should link that. That was the funny thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Link it because like when they're like sitting on the couch, like fluttering, they're gonna be like when the real one was playing too and their eyes were closed, and they were just like I love how we called it the real one.

SPEAKER_02:

The real one. It is the real one. I um okay, so for our listeners, Manny sent us this. It's I think a podcast, uh, three grown men who are talking about how Disney, like the intro music to Disney changed recently, apparently. Yeah, and so they played the new music and they showed the reactions of these guys like absolutely hating it. The one is like falling over in his chair, they're so pissed, and then they played the original music, which is like When You Wish Upon a Star. Um and then they all kind of like zenned out, they got so happy, and I felt I felt that too. But like I haven't heard that new music. Is that real? Because it was trash. I am with them. It was bad. It was why ruin a good thing?

SPEAKER_05:

Why ruin a good thing? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Why mess with perfection?

SPEAKER_05:

Um, okay, I know we have to wrap soon, so I'm not gonna answer the question. Do you have any other questions for me?

SPEAKER_02:

What are we even doing here? Um uh you need to answer a little bit of the question because I think Ariel is like a really interesting one with regards to feminism. Like you like the they take away her voice and she has to just be super pretty so that the guy likes her. You don't have any feelings about that, you're perfectly fine with.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm standing in my time constraint. I'm just kidding. Um what that's not my experience watching the movie. Okay, say more. Um my experience, and this is again, I think you have a question here about like, do you let your kids watch Disney? You had one in there. Um, because I think that their inter your interpretation at a young age, you're not able to understand these complex complex um things that subliminal messages or nuances of the story. And I need a babysitter, so I don't care.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I listen, I've professed my love for Disney.

SPEAKER_05:

So that and I think the same happened when I was younger. I mean, and what whether my mom knew about whatever. I think for me, what I focused on in air in The Little Mermaid, the heart of it, was similar to the marriage piece of like I can choose a partner outside of my culture. And that's what I was going through as a young person and where I was living. And so I think I admired that about Ariel more. That was what I just attracted me to her, was that like I feel different. I feel I don't feel attracted to this um um merman. I feel attracted to the human and and I don't know why, and I just want to explore that, and I'm gonna be different from my siblings and that, and the merh people and that, and her curiosity and and adventure. I would like I've said on previous episodes, like I was always out in the woods. I was always like make I like made weird shit with like hair oil and potions and stuff, and I was music, you know. It just like it just all of that is what I like remember and I connect with still. Um and yes, there's all there's the other like, you know, what you're saying about taking away your voice, but I think that that more for me um later on in life is something that I understood and that I'm still working through, and that I I think we're all still working through is how do we get our voice back, you know, uh, which is why I think we have this this plot this podcast, right? Um, but yeah, that was my original thinking response. I love that. I think yeah, I think you're similar.

SPEAKER_02:

I think well, I think that this is exactly the conundrum that I found myself in as I was trying to prepare for this episode because there are so many flaws in the way that they represent these these princesses, these female characters. But there's also like so many little things like what you just described that we can take away and actually find strength in. And there's no way to make a perfect character. Like we don't expect perfection of male leads because they're in power and they're the the majority, or maybe not the majority, but they're the patriarchy, they're in power, and so it's acceptable for them to have flaws, and then we hold women um leads or you know second secondary characters on this standard that seems totally unrealistic and unfair. And I think if we just talked about that more, you would you would get the same outcome, which is you don't want your daughters to hold certain unrealistic expectations for themselves. You want them to be empowered, you want them to be strong and independent. And so if you have a conversation about these characters of like, what do you like? And what would you change or whatever, you know, or why is this an imperfect representation of a strong, powerful woman, then don't you cover don't you accomplish the same goal, I guess. So I I guess I'm coming to terms with the fact that I love Disney and it's okay.

SPEAKER_05:

I think for me it's to as a parent, and not even as a parent, I just as a human, I think this is similar to the aerial conversation with the real life version. Is like, I just want people to exist in their imagination and it'd be okay. You know, like when my son watches Snow White, like Miles likes Snow White more than I did as a young girl. And I'm not gonna stifle him for that. Like, I'm not gonna be like, you can't watch Snow White, you know, like I he something in there is like communicating to him in his imagination. And so like I remember this with like the like um casting Holly Bailey as a black mermaid. It's like, but mermaids don't exist, so who gives up?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_05:

Sorry, spoiler a little bit talking lobsters don't exist.

SPEAKER_02:

That is true. They don't. Not talking crabs, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

No, but it's like I just want people to fully embrace living in their imagination and wherever that takes you, if it's not harming or violent or you know, to somebody like if my kids are walking away with it with a greater sense of self and and and me and like just feeling good, then like I don't care.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel like when you know we watched those movies as kids, we only brought to the table our, you know, seven, ten-year-old selves life experience, you know? And so what the story is going to do for you at that age is gonna be very different than um our 40-year-old selves watching it back, yeah. And um, and you know, it's like you know, if a little girl walks away like, I want to find a Prince Eric, then it opens up conversation too. Like, what do you mean by that? You know, what and what what makes you know a partner special? Why would you pick him? You know, that kind of thing. And it it lends itself to opportunities for us to parent and um and teach and and coach.

SPEAKER_02:

I do think that part is important, like, because I I do find that when I think about Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and uh Beauty and the Beast, like there was even at a young age, subliminally, I was like, I wanna be, I wanna be one of these princesses for all of the reasons, like including being rescued by some handsome prince, which that is the part when my feminism kicks in and is like that kind of sucks that I got that messaging and that and that I had to kind of break that desire or um or recognize that like the you know that a man doesn't define me and it did create behaviors that I would have wished I didn't have, you know, over the years. So there are pieces of it, but I think your point, Steph, of then if it sparks a conversation and it gives us an opportunity to teach, then like that is healthy and that is good.

SPEAKER_05:

But I think I think um not but I think um to answer your question of how Disney has like ex like the evolution of Disney. I don't are you Karen, you might be here. Are you in the descendants age? Zombies, descendants.

SPEAKER_02:

I know of it, but I don't know. I've not seen it.

SPEAKER_05:

So like you're like I think um developmentally what happened when we got out of the Disney princesses. We went to like the Disney like movie, like remember Johnny Tsunami and like Xenon Girl of the 21st Cent Karen, you probably don't know what I'm talking about. But these are like Disney shows that came on like Friday or Saturday night, or like um, what's the like Nickelodeon um uh shows that came on? Not not Are You Afraid of the Dark, the one that came on before with Keenan and Kel. Which one's that? All that all that's so I think you do I think there's developmentally appropriate conversations that happen during the stages of adolescence that parents you just have to be like attuned to of like how far do I go? Because you also don't want to like their spirit, you know, you don't want to crush their spirit, you know. So like let them have that at seven or eight, but like maybe at 12 or 13, if they're starting to be a little boy crazed and acting and doing some stupid shit, then like that's when we bring in like some of those conversations, right? Because they're like cortex frontal cortex can handle it. But I think developmentally, um, it's also our job as a parent to like just you know uh recognize and be aware that like sometimes the it's not that deep for them, you know?

SPEAKER_06:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And descendants is amazing. Speaking of hair, I was Uma for Halloween one year. She is the descendant of Ursula.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh so what was her hair like? Was it like Ursula hair?

SPEAKER_05:

No, like they it was a black girl and she wore braids and and um locks and the and the and descendants is uh like all Disney descendants, and it's all about speaking of bad guys. Oh, full circle. It's all from the bad guy's perspective. It's the bad guys' descendants. Descendants, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I'm catching up. I did know this. I did know this, yes. Um well, maybe that's where we go next. Um, okay, I know we are coming up on time. So before we wrap, any aha's, any confessionals today?

SPEAKER_05:

I'm just proud of you for publicly stating that you are a Disney gal. And for your birthday, I will be getting you some mini mouse ears. Again.

SPEAKER_02:

Remember when we were in Orlando? Wasn't it you that got us all the mini ears? No. Was it me? Somebody did. Yeah, we all had them. I don't remember that. It's a good way to end. Okay. All right. Well, on that note, thank you all for joining us this week. Um, if you like what you're hearing, you know the drill, please like, subscribe, follow wherever you listen. Don't forget to hit up our show for all of the links to the articles. Follow us on Instagram and YouTube. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_00:

And they all look just the same.

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