Civic Burnout Syndrome

Summary

In this episode of 'You Can Call Me Karen,' hosts Steph, Manni, and Karen engage in a deep conversation with Sophia Fifner, a civic wellness strategist and advocate for women's rights. They discuss the pressing issues affecting women today, including economic inequality, reproductive rights, and violence against women. Sophia shares her personal journey of advocacy, including her work on Aaron's Law, which mandates age-appropriate sex education in schools. The conversation emphasizes the importance of civic engagement, the need for a long-term commitment to advocacy, and practical steps individuals can take to make a difference in their communities. The episode concludes with a focus on the power of joy and connection in the face of overwhelming challenges.

References

https://now.org/issues/

Learn more at sophiafifner.com; Social Media - IG/TikTok: @sophiafifner 

Book recommendation: Pauli Murray - Song in a Weary Throat

Keywords

feminism, advocacy, civic engagement, women's rights, social justice, Sophia Fifner, Aaron's Law, community activism, personal stories, empowerment

Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!

As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.

Chapters

• 0:00 Trigger Warning And Series Context
• 0:53 Framing Women’s Issues And Power Structures
• 1:24 Meet Sophia And Host Banter
• 3:11 Karen Of The Week And Sophia’s Story
• 4:46 Reporting, Polygraphs, And Systemic Barriers
• 6:46 Why Sharing Survivor Stories Matters
• 10:41 Light Break: Parenting And Texts
• 10:41 News Cycle Overwhelm And Staying Engaged
• 11:33 Big Advocacy: Path To Aaron’s Law
• 13:18 Pageantry To Policy: Finding A Platform
• 16:17 Capitol Hill Lessons And A Promise
• 18:16 Defining Civic Wellness As A Practice
• 22:09 Step One: Detox Your Information Diet
• 25:31 Step Two: Define What Truly Matters
• 28:07 Step Three: Build A Sustainable Rhythm
• 29:45 Step Four And Five: Rest, Then Return
• 32:25 Social Capital And Meeting Across Difference
• 35:02 Global vs Local: Rethinking Civics
• 38:41 Patience, Pendulums, And Policy Timelines
• 41:16 Choosing Joy And Staying Hopeful
• 45:01 Rapid-Fire: Keep It Snappy
• 50:16 Where To Find Sophia And Closing CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. This is the third and final episode on feminism, and this week, for those listeners that will be triggered, we will be covering topics surrounding sexual assault. So we do ask that you please listen with care or skip this episode if you feel that is triggering. For the rest of you, thank you for joining us, and let's dive right in.

SPEAKER_03: 0:53

Economic inequality, reproductive rights, violence against women, quality healthcare access, maternal rights, access to childcare. This unfortunately is not an exhaustive list of issues that directly impact women. When we discussed the goal of dismantling the patriarchy or feminism, we hope to break the systems that keep issues like these from continuing to impede the success and advancement of women. But how? What do we do? We are joined today by Sophia Pfner. Sophia is a sought-after civic wellness strategist, national speaker, and CEO of the Columbus Metropolitan Club, an industry industry-leading forum where thousands gather to explore the issues shaping our communities. She is the creator of the Advocate Next Door on Substack, where she equips women with the tools to speak up and make a difference in their community. Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast. Hello. Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen Pod. This is Steph, and I am joined by my amazing and talented co-hosts. We have Manny. Hello. And we wouldn't be not trying to scare our guests. Oh, I know. That was very tame. Hello, so like just so you know. And we wouldn't be talking about Karen's all the time if it weren't for her. Karen. Karen. Um, thanks. Hi. And so special to this year. Uh this year. This day. Girl, it's June.

SPEAKER_00: 2:35

Oh my gosh, we forgot to say the date last episode.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38

Oh, okay. Well, we're gonna say it this episode, just so what date is it?

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

Let the people know.

SPEAKER_03: 2:45

Today is June 13th.

SPEAKER_00: 2:47

Friday the 13th.

SPEAKER_03: 2:49

Oh my god. It is Friday the 13th. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, guys, you've interrupted my introduction of Sophia a hundred times. We do that every time. We do. Yes. We are here with Sophia Fitner. So welcome. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Yay. We're so happy you're here. So happy. So today we are going to wrap up our series on feminism with a discussion about advocacy and activism. Um, how do we as women stay engaged and continue the fight for equality? But before we do that, we've gotta know. Who are you calling Karen?

SPEAKER_04: 3:30

Who are you calling Karen?

SPEAKER_03: 3:33

I gotta know.

SPEAKER_04: 3:34

I would say that the biggest Karen that I've ever encountered was definitely, geez, I meet a lot of Karen's, quite frankly. Like when you're sure in your work, you do to be right. When you work in community, I just feel like you get to meet a lot the the wide variety of humanity, both good and bad. I would say that the biggest Karen would probably be the woman who um told me that no one would believe me uh when I was sexually assaulted as a teenager. Um she I shared what happened to me and she point blank told me that I was lying. Um and I feel like that was definitely Karen behavior because as a human, I think that sympathy and empathy should be um shared, especially during really traumatic times. So she was probably the worst.

SPEAKER_00: 4:20

Yeah. Um hundred percent she's the worst that we've ever heard on this um podcast. Ever. Yeah. Yeah, she gets the crown. Speaking of Karen's of the years, that's her. Karen's of the decade of the millennia. Of the millennia. Karen's of the millennia. Wow, that is like such a horror. I'm sorry, can you give a little more context of like why why is she like in a position of power?

SPEAKER_04: 4:46

She um, you know, and I I will share that for those who've experienced sexual assault who are listening to the podcast, um, this is hard to hear, but um, but also not uncommon, unfortunately, just from the work that I've done in advocacy. Um, I was sexually assaulted. I reported what happened, which is highly unusual. Most individuals don't report um assaults. And I was administered a polygraph test um to confirm whether or not I was lying, which now is technically outlawed in the state of Ohio, although there are loopholes that um place victims of sexual assault in precarious positions where they might end up taking a polygraph test. But while she was about to administer the test, she asked me to repeat what happened to me. And this was this individual was a state trooper. Um, so she sat me down in a chair, she was standing above me, and she just told me flat out that I was lying and what happened uh didn't happen and was an assault, and that she wasn't going to pursue the polygraph test because I needed to rewrite my statement. And that really um transformed me. Yeah. I say that without tearing up, but honestly, that really sh was a catalyst for my entire journey to advocacy. Why I do the work that I do today and why I'm so passionate about, especially women, leveraging their voice and knowing how to find justice, whether that be through our legal system or in their everyday lives.

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Yeah. Um there, and I can't wait to get into all of that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:26

I'm just sorry you had to experience that. Like that sounds awful, full stop, but then the fact that you were so young when that occurred as well. Like Yeah. I mean, the fact that you had the strength to get through it is incredible.

SPEAKER_04: 6:42

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I um, you know, I want to be really clear though, my experience was not unique. I really wish that nearly 20 years later, that the experiences of survivors was a completely different experience. And yes, there have been some meaningful laws passed and changed. Um, far too often, you know, survivors are not believed. They find roadblocks um when trying to navigate how they heal, um, both personally and in community. And I think that's one of the most important reasons why I share my story because I think oftentimes, especially after Me Too, the Me Too movement, that people assume that, oh, well, if something really bad happens to an individual, they're instantaneously believed. Understanding the legal system is very easy to do, and I'm sure that they receive justice, um, which is lie number one, number two, and number three. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:38

Yeah. And the biggest lie of all, I think, in that story, is that what you were just saying with the data and the statistics of how often it happens to women. So you hope that when you bring it to another woman, there will be some compassion met on the other side. And the fact that you were kind of looking for that safety and you're not going to go to another male in that moment because of the violation that just happened to you. For it to then happen again by the language of the that the woman is using is also what keeps us all in shame and uh and hidden. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, okay. Um, also, I love your nails.

SPEAKER_02: 8:23

I know I wasn't doing that too.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Thank you. Welcome. Um, so I have a Karen this week. We got Millie a um like Apple Watch for Christmas. And um, you know, I just I keep checking it and like checking it through her like iPad and making sure that she's being like a responsible digital citizen. And um she is seven, turning eight on Sunday for um our audience. So um a couple months ago, I saw a text message come through from her or something that looked like very like, oh my gosh, I might have to intervene. And it was like, um, I'm not talking to you anymore. You're a Trump supporter. And I was like, you know, like, where did she get this right?

SPEAKER_02: 9:19

Wait, Millie said that? Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 9:23

Yeah, I thought someone said that to Millie, and I was like, no, no, no, I heard like at first I thought someone said it to Millie, then I looked deeper and I was like, Millie sent this to somebody. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have to have a conversation with the parents, you know. And so then I opened up the text message, you guys. It was her responding to like those like texts that we get all the time from like the Republican.

unknown: 9:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

So we're gonna use that one from now on.

SPEAKER_03: 9:59

She better speak to her.

SPEAKER_00: 10:02

Daughter being a Karen, and like we never talk to her about any of this. I guess I mean, you know, like when it's in your house, you kind of like understand the energy, but like we've never really like directly, and I'm like, okay, I guess she knows what she likes and doesn't like.

SPEAKER_03: 10:19

That's amazing. So Millie Rosa is the Karen of the Week. Let's go, Millie. Let's go. And amazing. Those are our Kairns of the Week. So this talk topic of advocacy and activism feels particularly important as the news cycle continues to knock us over the head with human rights issue after human rights issue. Um, today is June 13th, and we are hearing news of ICE pulling families apart and the National Guard descending upon LA protesters as we speak. So um issues um like these can cause us to feel paralyzed, overwhelmed, and not sure where to start. So I'm super thankful to have Sophia here with us today because um my understanding of her mission is to encourage us to stay connected, engaged, and in the fight in a way that is digestible and fits our advocacy style. So um uh Sophia, I'm just again thankful for you to be here, especially at a time like this. Um so while you know you promote ways that we all can find ways to engage and we all can find ways to be advocates, I kind of want to start big because you uh were instrumental in the implementation of legislature legislature to protect women who are survivors of sexual assault. So I wanted you to um share kind of your journey through that process because that's big advocacy, and I know that you um don't always overwhelm us with big advocacy, but I want to start with how amazing you are and what you have done.

SPEAKER_00: 12:07

So can you the most important guest we've ever had?

SPEAKER_03: 12:09

Oh my god, like I'm sweating and full of closure. Sophia is my cousin, and so we're family, um, and I am sweating because I just admire her so much.

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

So basically, we could never book this big of a star unless they were related to us.

SPEAKER_04: 12:26

That's hilarious. I hope that you're really not sweating, and um, I don't perceive myself in that light. I honestly like sincerely, I don't think that um what I've done is anything that's necessarily newsworthy or noteworthy because there are so many people who are just like me who do the exact same work. Um, to kind of piggyback, and I won't, I feel like I'm gonna condense like 15 years of work into like less than five minutes, but when I was sexually assaulted, that really transformed how I showed up in the world. It was a catalyst for me trying to figure out who I was and how I wanted to interact with other humans. Um, and so that journey honestly, unexpectedly um launched myself into pageantry, which most people wouldn't go, oh, you've been a victim of a heinous crime and sexual assault, and you should solve that with pageantry. But as I was trying, I went to the women's center at Miami University and I wanted to establish a nonprofit organization or an organization where women could talk about character and self-esteem. At the time, I had this um false understanding that if I would have had just a better sense of self, if I would have stood up for myself, that perhaps what happened wouldn't happen. And instead of starting an organization, I met a woman who suggested that I compete in pageants. And I'm really glad that she did because I can't tell you how often it's so easy to be able to pick up the phone and work with your county commissioners or work with your sheriff's department or work with local schools and talk to children or anyone when you have a crown on your head, which is a whole nother conversation about sexism and patriarchy, but it is it is what it is. And I utilize that experience to learn really basic skills in advocating for others and advocating for issues that really mattered to me at that time of my life. Fast forward, I spent some time on Capitol Hill. I worked in uh philanthropy and nonprofits, and there was a moment during the 2016 election where I was really struggling with the national conversation we were having. Donald Trump was campaigning to be president, and at the time I kept on telling myself, there's no way that we are this divided on really fundamental issues. There's no way that we can tolerate language and actions towards women and marginalized communities in this way. And I remember waking up the day after the election sobbing, like hysterically, like just You were not alone. I was incredibly surprised. And um I made a promise to my daughter Caroline, my oldest daughter now, that I would do everything I could to use my voice in a way that matters, not just for others, but to advocate for issues that I deeply believed in. Um, and then my mom walked in on Joan, and she was like, Sophia, what you crying for? Your body's gonna go back to normal. And I was like, Oh my god, mom. I'm not crying about giving birth to Caroline. Like it reminds me, like Caroline was born November 4th. So she came home just a few days after the election. And so it was really raw. And given like professional career in community, like I just I saw a lot of things that I strongly disagreed with. Um, and I made that promise to her, and I'm committed to it. So ever since then, I started to really rethink how can I reset how I'm engaging in civic life? What can I do to get rid of the things that no longer serve me? Start to define what really matters to me, and then start a practice that feels aligned with my strengths and my values. And so I reached out to a couple of local organizations, statewide organizations that support survivors of sexual assault. I asked them, I told them, hey, I worked on Capitol Hill. I actually really like reading legislation and working with elected officials. Can can I volunteer in that capacity? And from that work, we um there are several pieces of legislation that I provided testimony on, but I think the one that I'm most proud of is Aaron's Law. So Aaron's Law, which I'm you uh as educators, you might be familiar with it, but uh Aaron's Law is a law that requires all public um schools to teach age-appropriate sex education to children. And I think that that's a really important law because I didn't really have the words to describe what happened to me because those were not things that were discussed in my household.

SPEAKER_05: 17:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 17:00

And knowing appropriate touch versus inappropriate touch would have been an instrumental um in my safety. And so Aaron's law is a bill that I was able to work with organizations like the Ohio Alliance in Sexual Violence and the Ohio Crime Victims Justice Center to move forward. And not only was that law passed and signed into law, like full circle moment, my daughter Caroline, a couple years ago, came home and she was like, Hey, mom, just by the way, we um we had to learn about appropriate touch in school today. And I got an email from like their principal saying, Hey, today we're going to talk about Aaron's law. This is what it means. And I was like, wow, like how amazing that I made this commitment to my daughter and myself, and then full circle moment. Um, I'm getting emails from her school with that legislation in practice. It was just really humbling.

SPEAKER_00: 17:50

Yeah. And that she's able to recognize, like, hey, and feels like safe enough around you to be like, this is what I did in school today. Yeah, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_04: 18:01

So we have a lot of conversations about um appropriate touch consent. I mean, everything that I do professionally um and personally as a community member, we have a lot of conversations about in our home. So um I remember we went to Florida and we were we had some time in the sand, and she was asking me about something that had happened on the news because I regularly listen to um just various like podcasts that are connected to news. And so she's like, Well, what does that mean? Like, how do bills become a law? And I was like, Oh, yes, that's a conversation. There are three branches of government and drawing it in the sand, like, and here's what they do. It was it was a lot of fun. I really I hope that moments like that stick with um my oldest daughter, Caroline, but also my younger daughter, Hannah, when she decides to ask questions about how she can show up in her community.

SPEAKER_00: 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 18:54

Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 18:55

Speaking of that, I would just put on schoolhouse rock. Sorry. That is where my head will become a mom. Like, I know that's along with you. Wow, you're really making me look like a bad mom here.

SPEAKER_03: 19:11

Sorry, Steph. What were you gonna say? I was gonna say, speaking of the fact that there are three branches of government, um though, are there are there not too for long again?

SPEAKER_00: 19:24

This is June 13, 2025. We're recording it before the demise of democracy.

SPEAKER_04: 19:32

I'm optimistic.

SPEAKER_03: 19:34

I was gonna say as like apologies to the I'm glad to hear that dark, um, dark outlook uh coming up. I'm just I'm just playing America.

unknown: 19:45

Please.

SPEAKER_03: 19:46

So I guess what my question is, because we are obviously spiral, um, as we watch the news, um, how do you suggest um that we sift through the constant barrage of what seems to be crisis after crisis? Um, because I know that your goal is to encourage us to stay connected and um find ways to use our voice. And um, I know for me, and I, you know, I read in your bio that part of what you want to do is help us sift through overwhelm or like push through overwhelm. So, like, what how do we decide like what issues we should actually latch on to? Because um, I feel like if we made a list of the things that were going on right now, like I feel stressed.

SPEAKER_04: 20:29

Yeah, it is freaking overwhelming, and honestly, I feel like it's designed that way. Um, and and just amplified in 2025. I mean, I I don't think that people can talk about civics um or community participation and not feel disoriented, overwhelmed, confused, depressed, lonely, isolated, like fill-in negative word, and it is connected to how we connect with one another. I'm gonna start with uh, I actually think that we need to redefine how we talk about civics and what it is, because oftentimes people perceive civics as voting and volunteering. It's like, well, I voted and maybe and I volunteered, maybe, and like what else am I supposed to do? Um, but to me, civics needs to be a practice the same way that you would approach your financial wellness or your physical wellness. Like it needs to be a long-term commitment. It's not something that you focus on one quick action and you're done, and that's it. But the best comparison I can give you is um how we approach our physical fitness and wellness, right? When you're thinking about physical fitness, which is something that I have tried all of the fad diets, all of the junk food, all of the things you could possibly do. I've gained 50 pounds, I've lost 50 pounds, I've gained 60 pounds, and I still have 60 pounds. Like I really struggle, right, with my physical wellness. And it has been a journey that I have tested all the things. I have done the exact same thing when it comes to civics. Like, do you post a black square? Do you like subscribe to all the news outlets? Like, what the heck do you do? And how do you not feel so overwhelmed to the point where you just either lose interest or burn out? So I would say that the first thing that people do if they're trying to approach civics as a civic wellness journey is detox, which sounds like, okay, well, what the what does that mean, right? What I mean by detox is get rid of the noise, the things that are giving you anxiety. Just like eating too much junk food is bad for you, right? You want nutrient-dense options when it comes to what's happening in your community. Nutrient-dense options would include subscribing to reputable news sources. So the new and reputable, I think, in 2025 can have a wide margin. But from my perspective, I would say reputable and that they still believe in the tenets of journalism. So whether that be Reuters, BBC, New York Times, The Wall Street Post, Columbus Dispatch, SANS, all of their editorial pages, like that they hire journalists who are deeply committed to understanding the facts or the AP, right? Um, subscribing to your elected officials' um newsletters, like knowing who they are, like getting rid of all of the junky social media, random thought like thought leaders who just kind of stir up a lot of anxiety. Try to limit the amount of news that you're taking in to qualified facts. Um, and then from a, you know, that's just speaking about political health, but also there's this other community. Like, if you're somebody who has a bleeding heart like me and you care about every single charity and every single social issue, um, we as humans do not have the capacity to take in all of that information. So I would recommend unsubscribing to the organizations that just no longer serve you. It's okay. It really is okay. They're not, it's it's gonna be fine. There's 17,000 nonprofit organizations registered in Franklin County alone.

SPEAKER_05: 24:01

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04: 24:02

It's okay to not be subscribed to every single nonprofit organization doing meaningful work. Get rid of all the junk and keep the things that are truly nourishing you and limit that to like top three if you really feel totally overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_02: 24:16

I'm happy to do that. I love, sorry to interrupt, but I love that you said doing meaningful work. Like just because you are personally unsubscribed from said newsletter doesn't mean you're making a statement about how good or how bad that organization is. It's just like we all can be inundated with so much information that it becomes useless. And so if we can all pick the things that like give us energy and uh, you know, or keep us passionate about something. I thank you for that permission, I guess is where I'm going because that's helpful to me in thinking about how do I take some kind of action.

SPEAKER_04: 24:54

Overwhelming. I mean, I my job requires me to know what's going on locally, at the state level, nationally, and internationally. Like I need to know what's happening um in news. And so I I think it's easy for a lot of people like myself and others, like you can just have like just too much content coming at you all the time, and it creates a sense of panic. You know, when Israel strikes Iran and you get 27 news alerts, like maybe you only really need like two. So go to the two that are most nutrient dense and start there.

SPEAKER_02: 25:29

Yeah, love that comparison, nutrient dense.

SPEAKER_03: 25:32

Yeah, yeah. That's great. So then what? I'm happy. So next, okay, so you've decoped all of these things.

SPEAKER_04: 25:41

I think we've got a list. We gotta the next step that you need to know it's here. Yes, yeah. And there's five, I'll walk through all five steps. Um sorry, it's a it's kind of a lot, but I think it will make sense collectively. So next, define what's most important to you. And I find that um, especially with women, there's a lot of shoulds connected to what's most important to you. So if you list, like, okay, here's here, and when when I say define what's most important to you, this is also a little complicated because I think that people go, well, oh, my family, or like, oh, I think I'm supposed to care about gender equity, or I'm supposed to care about the environment. Skip all of that. Start to think about, okay, have I had experiences um in my youth that really transformed me, a coach that really inspired me as a competitive dancer or a competitive athlete? Is there a moment in my current life that I'm seeing that's happening in my community that really bothers me, like it really hits my core? Like if this conversation around immigration is rocking your core, notice that. If there's something in a future state, if you are somebody who um cares for other human beings like children, and you want to make sure that the your community or the country is a better place environmentally, then maybe that's where you start. When I when I say find your purpose, start there. Figure out what matters to you, what your values are. From there, then start to find organizations or ways that you can support that thing. For me, it's supporting gender equity and women and girls. Like it's been a very consistent theme in my life that I'm just naturally gravitating towards organizations like Girl Scouts to um national organizations like Rain, which supports survivors of sexual assault, rape, and incest. Um, that that's my lifelong mission. But my lifelong journey is not the same as yours, Manny, or your staff or yours, Karen, right? Like we all have to take some time. And the fact that it takes time is okay. That's part of the work because again, no one's going to lose 60 pounds overnight or become a professional athlete overnight. Like if you approach this as this is a journey, it's a lifelong commitment to reshaping how you're engaging in the community, you'll be in a much better place. Once you define what's most important to you, start to build a rhythm that works for you in this current chapter. So, again, similar to exercise, like no one's gonna, I mean, perhaps someone, I'm not successful. Like, I tried a couple of those like orange theory, and like, yeah, if you just go three times a day, people have to do that. Diamond orange theory. I love it. I I strongly dislike it, right?

SPEAKER_02: 28:22

Yes, I get that though.

SPEAKER_04: 28:23

I meet so many people who are like, yeah, I really care about this issue, but then this organization said this, and I'm totally turned off by it. Cool, like civics and organization approach it like dating or approach it like finding the right like physical fitness activity that you like or the right diet plan that you that works for you. Like, totally fine to say no, thank you to something and yes to others, but you have to kind of try it. But find a rhythm that works. So that rhythm can be, and I break this down really simple. That rhythm could be, hey, I'm really busy right now. I know that I care about the environment, but I don't have time to go to every single protest because I have a full-time job, family responsibilities, I have kids that I care for, I have this neighbor who like I've been helping out on the side. Like, I just I'm overwhelmed. Maybe during this time, your rhythm is making a consistent monthly donation to X said nonprofit, and that's it. You make that donation, you read their newsletters, and maybe once a year you show up to their events, like totally fine. Or maybe your rhythm is I actually love uh knowing what's happening in local government, or I don't really understand it. And my rhythm is like I'm gonna commit to three times this year going to a community meeting with my mayor and city council members, just so I can experience it. Not to do anything, I just want to see it. Like maybe that's your rhythm. And then the last two steps rest. I think that this is something that people don't take seriously enough. They burn out and then they're like, peace out, like I'm done. I'm just gonna dig my hole, my head in the sand, and I'm not gonna look up ever again because the country's going to hell, and like I don't want any part of it. gonna live my best life. Um I appreciate that feeling. I deeply understand it. I think it's really important to rest and be really intentional about it. If you feel that I can't stand everything that's going on, take a beat and rest. But next the most important step is to return. Like you got to get back in it. Because nothing is going to happen. No one's going to save democracy if everyone's sitting on the sidelines just letting the crazy people take charge, right? You have to be part of it if you want things to change in your backyard, in your state, and nationally it's not going to happen with everyone sending this one out.

SPEAKER_00: 30:36

Yeah. Wow. Woo those are great. We need that five-step plan just like posted everywhere. Speaking of social media that just needs to be posted everywhere.

SPEAKER_02: 30:47

I do love how accessible it feels like yeah it is overwhelming to think about what can I do and how do I use my voice or my influence or my dollars, you know, like there's so many options out there and the way that you just broke that down so so simply and I I don't feel like I've ever heard that before. It's like it just feels so approachable. Like okay I have an action now I know what I need to go do and I love that.

SPEAKER_04: 31:19

Thank you. Yeah I I mean I I teach a class on civics. Like I think about this topic all the time and I can't tell you how many times I meet especially women and perhaps it's also because all I do is spend time in women's organizations or gendered spaces like that. Where like I literally think how do I make this as simple as possible because it breaks my heart to meet people who um are deeply passionate and they care. But like we as a society haven't given adults tools on how to show up. And there's a lot of research around social capital which is the connections the relationships we have with one another in community and how when communities lack social capital so meeting people outside of your family it increases polarization it increases violence it increases all the negative but when we have stronger social ties that communities are more vibrant they have the resources that they need to grow and to you know everyone wants to you know have a meaningful life right like we need connection but we're not really um teaching civics in a way that I feel helps normal human beings who have a life who have all these things we're not breaking it down. Oftentimes uh when I follow content on social media or when I read things that are connected to civics like I I get bored. And if I get bored like I can't imagine how everyone else feels so I think about how do I break that down for people as as easy as possible so they can understand but then also talk about some of like the guilt connected to or the shoulds connected to how we should show up or I feel guilty about because I think that for women specifically that is an issue that I see a lot.

SPEAKER_02: 33:04

It's so funny when you say civics I immediately go to high school yes like whatever that is 10th grade ninth grade civics class and I I don't know if I could even define civics. Like I the words you're using make perfect sense to me but I'm like oh what is civics like it's just a class I took in high school right that's kind of the problem I see now like everyone feels like and well what's funny is everyone says like oh well I know how to how what civics means or what civic engagement should look like and if you only follow folks on social media who have I feel a very um which again I think that all spectrums of how people show up is important.

SPEAKER_04: 33:54

Whether you are an activist on the front line like chanting all the slogans with the signs to the person who is at home nurturing the community who need like they're all of it's important. But if you're only seeing one side or one demonstration or one method of showing up in your community I think it does everyone a disservice.

SPEAKER_00: 34:13

Yeah and I think it's really hard because we're so globally connected in a way that we weren't um like even 20 years ago when we were in high school right so like with the expansion of social media and the internet there are these new and I think this is something that we saw with the most recent election of like there is this misunderstanding or confusion about well wait do we care about the war in Gaza? Do we care about domestic issues? Do we care about you know where is my place because I'm not just an American I'm a global citizen and I think that that conversation has really not been taught um fully in our curriculum because as we're seeing in American education system we don't even know what our value system is globally. We're divided on that too and so it's really confusing when outside of the school day you're experiencing it one way and in the school you're getting it taught another way and then you also don't have enough time to have dialogue around there all there has to be a certain way. And really what I'm hearing from you and what my understanding is as an educator is why not just open it up and allow people to just talk about it.

SPEAKER_04: 35:39

You know yeah um well the organization that I lead the Columbus Metropolitan club we host community conversations every single week with 150 central Ohioans to talk about community issues that matter but honestly like I I agree I think that dialogue is really important but I also think that it's more than just the like it is important to have the framework of what are our three branches of government and what they what do they do and what is your role in civics because honestly like if I if we just wanted to talk about nonprofits and philanthropy and the complexity that's within that business structure of supporting social good that could be an entire like master's degree. So there's just a lot there.

SPEAKER_02: 36:23

So I think that basic civic education is important but what's more important is honestly getting people to meet people who don't think and act like them and plac each other all of us committing to showing up in spaces where you um are not surrounded by an echo chamber of people who look think read act do all the things that you do because it builds up our level of resiliency a level of compassion communication skills persuasion skills that breaks down some of those issues that we're experiencing today around loneliness, isolation like anger mistrust etc yes echo chamber like that speaks to me the like inundation inundation of information on social media that just speaks to exactly what you think you care about and doesn't show you any other opposing views I think is so scary and it's gotten us into a lot of trouble of like where we are today.

SPEAKER_04: 37:23

Yeah so think about like if you know you only like you know okay well I'm healthy because I only consume vegetables that's awesome but you also need other things in your diet right like I'm healthy because I only like to do cardio exercises and I never do strength training. Like you kind of need both and in civics you kind of need both like you can't just it's not a one size like one one mode and then that's it. Like you if you approach it as okay this is a long-term commitment you gotta invest in eating the other things and trying the other exercises if you really want to strengthen your civic muscles.

SPEAKER_02: 38:00

It's such a good analogy like the the diet and exercise thing it's such a good analogy.

SPEAKER_00: 38:06

Yeah I notice when I'm the most unhealthy civic version of myself it's when I'm existing in judgment and that to me is a muscle that I had to start to understand of like when I am feeling dislocated from my community when I am feeling discord from society and I'm judging that is my signal to move into action right and so when I move into action to your point Sophia of like it could be something very small of like just going to like the yesterday I went to the nursery and bought plants right and it's like okay I'm gonna try to plant these things and then I use my hands and I get creative but I also realize like timing I think when you're talking about rhythm of like just how much time it is going to take for change to be in an effect right and I think that that's part of what we're sensing is then in this tension is like why is it taking so it's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_04: 39:15

And I think that in our this digital age of immediacy that that is something that we're really struggling with as a generation and as a society. So I took the liberty for funsies to read um nothing but civic leaders' works from the late 1800s and early like 19 uh 1900s. Like I wanted to understand how did they show up move forward with social justice platforms in a time when uh nativism was on the rise, fascism was on the rise all of these all the things all the isms and schisms were on the rise Jim Crow uh there was this great period in our history right after the Civil War um with Reconstruction where you had more African Americans in Congress this movement towards gender equity and then all of a sudden it just crashed right what did they do? Like how did they persevere? And I think what I learned from those leaders like W.E.B. Du Bois or Polly Murray is that this work takes time like and there's gonna be a pendulum swing like forward and backwards and sometimes it's gonna move forward in ways that you perhaps disagree with or you're really excited about. And sometimes it's gonna move backwards in ways that you're like what the heck is going on I think what's most important though is that people approach community and civics as okay cool I'm gonna understand this is a long game I'm gonna take a long game approach to my wellness in this space because I don't want to sit on the sidelines for 80 years and then like didn't do anything to like support the the transformation of my own community. I'm gonna show up we have to take it's a long game and that's the hardest thing even legislation I think that people get really frustrated by like you might see in the news some of the pieces of legislation that move really quickly because of partisan politics on both the right and the left or perhaps has tremendous bipartisan support so it goes really quickly. Spousal rape was a thing in Ohio until last year it literally took advocacy organizations it was legal. It was legal in Ohio until last year it took nearly 30 years of advocacy to make that modification and just imagine what would happen if those leaders said like you know what I'm frustrated I we've introduced this bill 10 times and it's not going anywhere. Policy takes a long time advocacy takes a long time and working with community members with adults getting all adults on the same page whether you're talking about policy or a nonprofit or social issue it's something that takes a long time but honestly I think that um the best results come for when you have everybody at the table believing in it moving it will last much longer when you have everyone at the table.

SPEAKER_02: 42:16

How do you how do you stay so positive?

SPEAKER_04: 42:21

Because I'm like uh I can't handle that information I get it I mean I will say that I am a um and it and an optimist like I I think you have two options in life like you can be a pessimist and assume that everything is awful and evil and but then like what's worth like why live right like I would much rather live in the space of hope that things can change that there's good that there are good people who truly do care because there are and I see them and meet them every single week in Columbus who are deeply committed to moving things forward whether it be making sure that Ohio is a region of economic growth so that they're like so Columbus is the only region the central Ohio region that's truly growing in the state of Ohio if you look at the map so there's some bit a benchmark report from the Columbus Foundation which is the sixth largest community foundation like for uh like for philanthropic purposes central Ohio is one of the only growing spaces in Ohio so can you imagine living in a a community where jobs have declined tremendously where um you know their population has declined tremendously when your population declines that means that you have less of a tax space to support part like I I have to remain hopeful because like I see people every day who are working towards making sure ohioans have jobs or making sure that our unhoused population that they have the resources that they need and it really is um it gives me hope but then also like I just know that there are good people who are doing good things and if I'm gonna be on this earth I'd rather be part of them than not with them. Preach preach yes I love that and it's and I don't I won't I will share like I have bad days too like I'm not some like robot who like does not feel and it's like everything's fine. It's all good like I I get the reality of what I'm seeing on my television screen and on my phone and the articles that I'm reading like deeply deeply impacts me but I choose joy like I choose joy as part of my own survivalist training because to me I can't operate outside of that spectrum. It's too depressing and I also know that I don't want to be on the sidelines. So if I don't want to be on the sidelines and I want to commit to supporting my community in a positive way I'm gonna choose joy every single time and if I need to rest and like hide out for a day or two like cool like I'm gonna rest.

SPEAKER_02: 44:59

I'm gonna listen back to this when I need my dose of like hope and optimism. And also let me know when you're running for office because she can't vote in Ohio but she'd just like to know she'll support your I don't know maybe it's on the national stage oh okay I see what you did there.

SPEAKER_00: 45:20

Thank you. I love that too because a lot of the conversation with the black community right now is like we they're never going to be able to steal our joy our creativity our resilience and we're not gonna let them joy is a choice right and that is our radical resistance right now is to just remain in joy. So I love that you you know kind of wrapped us up with that because it's so true. It is a choice you have you what else are you going to do while you're here right like life's short yeah so anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 45:57

Um before we head into a special feature of um you can call me Karen when we have a guest on um I just wanted to uh pause for any confessionals or aha moments um from anyone when she said she likes reading legislation me too no it's clear that you're like a reader like when you were talking about going back and reading like books from Reconstruction and you know wanting to learn more it's like just very clear that you um you know are an intellect in that regard and I just want to point out that that was not lost on me that you said that.

SPEAKER_04: 46:42

It's fun it's fun I mean again I I think looking at this as like uh you know wellness if you tell me that every single day or for the next for the rest of my life I have to participate in CrossFit I would want to like hide under 15000 rocks like absolutely freaking not I'm not doing it. Like I have no interest in participating in any of that. So what works for me with regards to participating in community will absolutely not work for everyone. And if you're like yeah that's cool cool cool I would much rather just stick with like my local uh you know food pantry donating resources there and volunteering everything like cool whatever works for you like at the end of the day I just think it's really important that people um can show up in their community and feel really good about how they're doing it. And I just want them to show up like to start somewhere.

SPEAKER_00: 47:34

Yeah. Yeah that's like what we talked about in our last episode with with spirituality and feminism and like that's how we defeat the the patriarchy right is moving more to these communal based um societies where no role is more important than the other the congressman woman is just as important as the florist who is providing beauty to our sidewalks you know like everyone just has to show up and participate in whatever you feel I think you were talking about this with your values right like get really quiet and clear on your values and then you will be then when that pessimism starts to fit in the motivation will fight it because you have perp a sense of purpose. It's similar to Steph and I working with middle school kids. People are probably always like why do you like middle school? And it's like yeah but I can't do elementary and I don't like the elder not I don't like the elderly but like I that's not my fuck old people edit that out right now but you know what I mean it's like find your groove because somebody else will be able to fill the void and then it'll all be pretty that's the hope.

SPEAKER_02: 48:58

Yeah I think my um my takeaway is that there are five steps I believe five steps um and it is very it's a very simple breakdown of like how to think about engaging as a citizen in our in my space and there's very easy digestible things I can do. I don't have to do it all. And so that is my takeaway that is what I'm learning for today and it makes it so much more approachable. So thank you so much for breaking it down for us.

SPEAKER_00: 49:37

All right so Steph should I go? I mean I know we have Sophia has to get to an appointment we are you know these the two other Karen and Sophia are important.

SPEAKER_03: 49:48

We're on we're teachers on summer breaks um because I did have another really big question that would probably take us another 20 minutes of conversation so we may need to just have you back on but um yeah there we go a little bonus.

SPEAKER_04: 50:01

Yeah a bonus and next time you won't be sweaty so it'll be great.

SPEAKER_00: 50:04

Yeah so we'll be sweating show us those pit stains no all right so so we every time we have a guest on we have a closing segment with our guests um some people like to call it the Karen interrogation I like to call it keep it snappy um so that implies these responses should be off the cuff one sentence or less yes or no you don't have to explain okay all right so welcome to keep it snappy season we don't I'm cutting that out oh my gosh okay um is a hot dog a sandwich no is an avocado a fruit yes is eight mile a musical could be yes yes absolutely what was the drug of your household growing up Advil Motrin or Tylenol Tylenol Okay the year is I wanted to comment but it's keep it snappy and we really are on a time crunch.

SPEAKER_04: 51:16

Okay the year is 1996 name the top three guys on your mashboard I don't know if I had a top three guys like I just like fuck those guys um can I just say I liked Alanis Morset and I don't know like I wasn't really uh she wasn't watching all the Disney movies like she wasn't watching all the Disney callback to last episode Alanis Morset God love her's very happy with that response too she gets mistaken for Alanis all the time I used to yeah yeah getting old now I guess um okay what's a book everyone must read before they leave this earth oh geez that's really hard I'm surrounded by books okay I would say that the book that I absolutely love right now that I've been recommending nonstop is um Polly Murray's Song and a weary throat so I mentioned Polly Murray earlier I'm obsessed with her I think that she's a fantastic human being Polly Murray say it one more time every so Polly Murray Song and a weary throat she was a um a I think in today's term might be considered trans black woman who was an attorney a priest she was the founder for really pivotal legislation um around gender and uh social justice I just she's amazing so I would recommend people read that okay thank you adding it to the show notes add into the show notes okay um where were you on January 6th 2021 at my dentist office like freaking out well texting my friends who lived in DC oh my gosh yes because of your work on Capitol Hill oh my gosh that's probably gotta be so excruciating um okay in a parallel world you're living life as a oh um as a hippie in the woods I want to be a fairy um okay finish this sentence it's 7 p.m friday and I'm sitting at home with a book and tea yes yes that is the right answer smoking like an elder millennial that would be a quote from Glorilla by the way so that's who you need to next go look up okay noted she's writing it down okay um this one I think we know the answer but you can you can tell the truth here who's your favorite host on you can call me Karen oh well clearly it's Manny No you finally got someone to say it's kicking I'm kicking nanny off the island you're out thank you you're welcome question where can people find you um if they want to learn more about you and the work that you do for the advocacy advocate next door yeah they can find me at Sophiafiffner.com and that's also my social media handle Sophia Fiffner I'm obnoxiously easy to find so I encourage folks to follow me uh on my website but then also sign up for my substack yes what's the substack name it is the advocate next door but you can find it at Sophiafiffner.com and it's super simple for folks and we've linked it all in the show notes so yeah it's all out here but in case you're driving just getting out of the way afterwards all right thank you so much this was such a wonderful conversation we've learned a lot and I hope our listeners have learned even more ways in which they can go out and you know be in community and do the civic engagement that you know is so needed for us right now.

SPEAKER_03: 55:16

So thank I know for me I just want to say thank you personally especially since I'm your favorite such a kiss ass people call it charisma oh man well thank you so much for having me I really appreciate it thanks so for yes yes yes thank you for listening to another episode of You Can Call Me Karen um like subscribe and follow us wherever you listen and don't forget it to for to hit up our show page for all of the articles referenced in our show um and you can catch us on Instagram at you can call me Karen and you can also that is not the name you can call I'm sorry you can call me Karen underscore pod my bad there you go we don't make it easy for y'all we don't and that's it love y'all thank you we love you for listening we'll see you next time bitches and the yellow one and they're all made out of chicky tacky and they all look just the same hello and welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen this is the third and final episode on feminism and this week for those listeners that will be triggered we will be covering topics surrounding sexual assault so we do ask that you please listen with care or skip this episode if if you feel that is triggering.

SPEAKER_01: 57:06

For the rest of you thank you for joining us and let's dive right in