You Can Call Me, Karen
You Can Call Me Karen is caught in the middle—too young for Gen X, too tired for Gen Z. Hosted by Manni, Steph, and Karen, three sharp-tongued friends raised on dial-up tones and Dawson’s Creek, the show unpacks the pop culture that shaped the ‘90s and early 2000s. With wit and candor, they dissect the contradictions of coming of age in that era, never afraid to channel their inner Karen if it means saying the quiet parts out loud. No advice, just real talk: a bold, funny, side-eye-laced ride through nostalgia, modern womanhood, and the messiness in between.
You Can Call Me, Karen
Make America Healthy Again Syndrome
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the MAHA Movement and its implications on public health, personal wellness, and the influence of misinformation in the wellness culture. We share personal anecdotes, debunk health myths, and explore the intersection of politics and health, emphasizing the need for community health initiatives and systemic changes. The conversation highlights the dangers of individualism in health narratives and the importance of historical context in understanding current health issues.
Keywords
Maha Movement, public health, personal wellness, misinformation, social media, community health, capitalism, holistic health, political ideologies, health narratives
References
Dr. Jessica Knurick - @drjessicaknurick
- Fake ADHD Diet Study
- MAHA Celebrates while Pubic Health Is Dismantled
- Wellness vs Public Health
- More dietary guidelines propaganda
- Personal responsibility vs Systems
- Why do so many need Medicaid + Snap
Dr. Mona - @pedsdoctalk
- Vaccine Ingredients Explained
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. - https://fb.watch/Awf6BAzcx9/
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Did you know that 90% of people who eat two cups of broccoli daily have reduced occurrences of sleep apnea? Did you know that the peels of oranges are covered in a pesticide proven to stunt growth in children? Did you know that a Harvard University study revealed that 99.99% of people who enjoy pasta and bread daily do not have a gluten allergy? Any of this ring a bell? No? Well, it shouldn't because I made it all up. Throw some statistics and percentages around, state them with authority, maybe even a fake citation, and you've got yourself a pretty convincing piece of propaganda. That, my friends, is the foundation of a movement that is taking social media and and unfortunately by the executive branch of the United States by storm. Today we are going to discuss, and excuse me while I choke this out, make America Healthy Again, or the Maha movement. Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast. Hello. Welcome to the Call Me Karen Pod. This is Steph, and I'm joined by my amazing co-hosts. We have Manny.
SPEAKER_04:Hello, Governor.
SPEAKER_00:And we have Don't Be Fooled by Her Name. She does season her food, Karen.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. That means so much. Oh my god, that Chiron. Wow. Yeah. Hi.
SPEAKER_03:That was impressive. I think that that should go on your like email, like exchange. You know, your character. You should put that on there. And in your Instagram tagline.
SPEAKER_01:Karen's everywhere. She's insurfood Stansfield.
SPEAKER_00:Well, welcome listeners and welcome Karen and Manny. And um, so today we are going to be discussing the Maha movement and how it's impacting decisions that are being made about public health here in the U.S. But first, I gotta know. Who are you calling? I wanna know. Um calling Karen this week. Who are you calling Karen?
SPEAKER_03:Who wants to go first, Karen?
SPEAKER_01:I guess you want me to go first, so sure, I'll go first. Um I have a spicy one today. Um I was with my family, my husband and my son. Um we were in a customs line, um, like waiting to get through customs, and the line was like an hour and a half long, and Maxwell was being a total champ, but we were tired and frustrated and hot. I remember it being really hot. So we're standing in this long ass line, and there is a man like standing next to us in another line. Um, and he kept he was wearing a mask, but he like kept making eye contact with me. So eventually he like started chatting. And he was like, Um, is this your son? And I was like, Yep. Uh, you know, that's never a good intro. Like, I already know where we're going. And he was like, Is uh is he's your only child? And I was like, Yeah. And he was like, Jesus Christ, boy. Yeah, I need to like consult my notes so that I get this exactly right because you know I was jotting this down the moment it happened. So he goes, um, he goes, you should have another child to give him a friend, a daughter specifically.
SPEAKER_04:What?
SPEAKER_01:And I was like, we're good. And he was like, he's lonely, he has no friends to play with. I'm like, thank you for assessing that by standing next to me in a customs line. He's lonely and he has no friends to play with, and you guys, wow icing on the cake. There's more. Oh no, there's more. After all of that, we were like, we're good, thanks. Um he leans into Maxwell and he goes, How is your hair so curly?
SPEAKER_04:Oh boy, oh boy. He said, Is it natural? Is it natural? Bitch, I'm six. And also, like, yeah, what I gotta hurt.
SPEAKER_05:I'm curling my fucking kids' hair.
SPEAKER_01:The what? Wow. Yeah. So that so that happened. Oh, we're sweet.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna say, what is the description of this character?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I would love for you to guess, but I won't make you do that. Um he was from an Asian country, English was not his first language, and he was pretty old.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm. Like this wrecked my whole vision. This wrecked my whole vision.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which is terrible. I made a lot of I was like, I was I had a whole vision of the I had a whole vision, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Whatever gets disrupted, I go to a time to kill, which we know Karen has never seen, but I go to that scene. You know what we've referenced it before, stuff, where it was like, imagine that person wait, but I want to know what you pictured. A white dude, older white man. Okay, because like yeah, yeah, you already said the gender, so I like figured it was a white.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because the normally I feel like the you should have more kids comment comes from women.
SPEAKER_00:Women. Well, you guys, I'm I've been re-watching Handmaid's Tale. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:And so like my sadist.
SPEAKER_00:And it's so my heart like sunk, like you need to have more children. Like, I'm in like this, and you know, so Jimmy said was a guy.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And you are still suggesting I have more. Yeah, like which, like, use your fucking brain. Like, I may, I you don't know my story. I may have had so many problems having a child biologically. I may have spent a small fortune to go through the adoption process, and then you're just saying willy-nilly, like, I should have more.
SPEAKER_03:Not to mention, don't fucking talk to me your customs line at all. Ever, ever. About the weather, about how long the line is taking, what you ate on the plane. Don't fucking talk me at all. Access denied.
SPEAKER_00:Like one of the most stressful places to be on the planet is a customs line.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's that and the DMV, right? Like, we're not trying to make friends here. And then certainly don't tell me about what I should be doing with my womb.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Get my womb out of here. Yeah. I was so mad. And and like, what am I gonna do? Cuss out some old man like that doesn't I know you're like trapped.
SPEAKER_03:You can't even go anywhere.
SPEAKER_01:You can't even physically leave.
SPEAKER_03:That's the point. Like, don't talk to me.
SPEAKER_01:Don't talk.
SPEAKER_03:This is not a time to engage at all about anything.
SPEAKER_01:It was I looked at Bob, we made eye contact, yeah, and he just like he just like turned around as if he wasn't even part of our group. I was like, it was better than it was better that way.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, because I was thinking of just picturing Bob kind of letting this man know about himself. Yeah, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01:It was better that he just like disengaged, and the man was talking to me, like but damn.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like I would have hit him with the service is wildly inappropriate.
SPEAKER_01:Embrace that dinner doing that just very like calmly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like you have like one line in your back pocket that you can refer to.
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, it's not appropriate to talk to me about how many children I have. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Ever. Just uh it's inappropriate to just be talking to me right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It should have been like, how many quids do you have? Right. Oh, right. That's not the right number. One is better. You had too many, you should give one back.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Is your hair natural?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. All right, Lord, I think we've beat that horse. Over to you, Manny.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, okay. Well, the date is July 7th. 6th? Is today the 6th? 6, July 6th. Sorry, all the summer days are blending together. Um, but it's 4th of July weekend, which means that we saw a lot of American flags this weekend, uh, on people's bodies, and just expressed everywhere for the birthday of America. So we're gonna call this, Karen, actually, Chad. This is 4th of July, Chad.
SPEAKER_05:So look at it.
SPEAKER_03:Two Chad, like men's men. Yeah, two chads. Men's. So, in uh the spirit of today's episode, um, I was at the gym uh on 4th of July, and um I was going to go stretch, and I see a man out of the corner of my eye wearing a shirt at at the gym at a very popular time um that says just a dad trying to raise his kids not to be liberal. And I was like, I'll take an American flag on the 4th of July all day, but like that is just completely obnoxious. Like, are you serious, dude? Like we get it, you know, but like what kind of statement are you trying to really? I mean, I guess we know what kind of statement he's trying to make, but like, cool shirt, bro, you know, like I wish you would have said that. Yeah, I kind of really like it, too. Like, cool shape, bro. And like the thing is, like, yeah, uh no, I'm not gonna comment on people's bodies, but it's just like I think we should be trying to do a little bit more than that. That's all. That's the fourth of July chat.
SPEAKER_00:Just somebody who's just completely ignorant and obnoxious, and you know, and you know he's wearing that in hopes that on it that someone like comments on the shirt in either direction. Like he wants to be praised by the people who agree and he wants to be challenged by the people who don't, like he looking for confrontation, right?
SPEAKER_03:Looking for confrontation, intentionally doing it on the 4th of July because he feels all you know proud of the country and whatever, you know. It just is like it's too much, it's so toxic and it's so nationalist, and it just it feels really gross, you know. It's just like and it's insult, it's insulting. Like it, I don't know. It just was an embarrassment.
SPEAKER_00:You all really encountered some tough people this uh past week here, but thank you for sharing, and those are our cairns of the week. All right, ladies, you know that I have been wanting to do this topic for a while, and I have been blowing up our um Instagram with all sorts of um clips. So I kind of want to share how this topic came to be for me, or why um I wanted to discuss it. Um I was I saw this someone I'm friends with on Facebook and just in life um shared this meme, and this is what it said. It was an ADHD study that said that they put 300 children with ADHD on an elimination diet, eliminating artificial sweeteners, gluten, dairy, dyes, corn, and soy. So it's okay. Then it says the study says then after three months, 72% of the children in the study no longer met the criteria for ADHD. So this person who I'm friends with who shared this meme, educated lady, um, you know, right? Um, and she shared it, and she has always been very health conscious with her children. So she's always, you know, been like no dyes, no, you know, that kind of mentality. So I was like, wow, that's an interesting study. Well, then I saw an account that I am now obsessed with, who I'm going to reference you all. I'm obsessed with this account. And um and her name is the lady who does this account. Her name is Dr. Jessica Nurik. Um, she is a registered dietitian and she has a PhD in public health, which we are going to talk about. And she shared the same study, but basically debunked it. And she pointed out the fact that that meme, which the one that she shared, was shared by um an account called the Patriot Barbie. So I'm sure you can already imagine this account. It sounds legitimate. It doesn't it sound legitimate and scientific? She said that she saw it from Patriot Barbie, and the caption was let's maha, like let's m-a-h a like that's how it's captioned. Uh-huh. And um, and so Dr. Neurick explains that guys, we have to be a little bit more diligent and a little more discerning when we see stuff. There were no links included to the study in the post. So this study that says 300 children were on an elimination diet, that 72% of them no longer meet criteria for ADHD, like what a huge claim without any sort of data to support it. She then shared another account, shared the exact same meme, but just different colors. So the wording was the exact same. Now, this account actually did share the link to an abstract. So an abstract is not a full study, it's just a summary. And this the abstract of the study referenced does not do a any of the things it says in that. There were not the children in the study were did not have ADHD. They did not. Yeah. The children, um, the study did not follow the children who were being on like on an elimination diet, and they didn't eliminate all of the the ingredients that were listed previously. And so then, and so that it had nothing to do with ADHD in the end. Like they weren't looking at kids who had ADHD. And so Dr. Near was pointing out that the person who thought to themselves, maybe I should link something, they found um an abstract, you know, a paragraph that mentioned something about elimination diet and just went click add, assuming that no one would read it. Right. And no one did. And no one did because it had um like thousands of likes and shares.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, and I know of people with children who have ADHD who have gone through this like extensive process to take like red 40 or whatever, you know, like out of the diet because of references like this. I don't know if it was this exact, you know, meme or stud study or whatever, but I have genuinely heard this before from people that have suggested I try to remove certain things from Maxwell's diet. And and I admittedly just like I was just like, okay, thanks, you're not a doctor. But you know, like I'll let my doctors tell me what to do. But um, but it's frightening, and I can see why, as a parent of a child who may be struggling in some way, whether it's ADHD or otherwise, you would be kind of desperate to find something that works, you know, like it kind of preys on people's um circumstances. It's yeah, bullshit.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think, you know, what I uh the reason I like fell in love with Dr. Nerk's account is because she always references actual studies or or points out where studies are not included, um, so that like we don't cling on to what you're saying, Karen, of things that we feel like, you know, you feel like maybe there's something I'm giving my child that's causing this, or you know, you're kind of preying on people's vulnerability and and concern. And I wanted to open with have you all noticed like an increase in wellness influencers? She's talking about the fact that there has been an increase in people speaking about wellness and diet and ways to like improve your your personal health. And um, if so, like what are kind of what are some of the things that you're seeing like in your feed, or like, you know, because like I had I like you said, Karen, I you know, I'm a teacher, so I've heard of parents talking about the diet that their kids um have and all sorts of things that they're trying at home um to help mitigate symptoms of ADHD. And so when I saw the post, like I I admittedly was like, oh, okay, I mean maybe there is this study, and to you know, realize that there truly isn't one, I was like, man, I have so many questions. But anyway, I'm sorry, I went on. I asked questions and then answered my own. What are you guys seeing out there?
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, I mean, tons of these wellness influencers, for sure. I find them infuriating. Um, I think we got a little bit into this in the top, what is it, toxic self-care episode as well. It's like um, yeah, it's like everyone is suddenly an expert. Um, everyone has like the the silver bullet to whatever your ailment is, and and they're putting it in such a format that's so digestible and enticing that it's preying on our like immediacy culture where you think I just need to do this one thing and that's gonna solve all my problems, as opposed to again listening to your healthcare professionals, whether physical or mental. And if you don't if you don't like what they're saying or if you don't agree with what they're saying, you know, get another opinion for sure. But we are in this in this modern world, we are like downplaying the intelligence and knowledge of the people who uh should have you know like should know all of that, our doctors and our scientists, and we're relying on information from bullshit studies like this. And I'm looking at you, RFK Jr. Like he is the exact problem, in my opinion. He is not an expert, he is not educated, he has uh repeatedly referenced not only false studies, but studies that do not exist. Yeah, chat GPT literally made up fake references. It's just it's horrifying. And I and our government doesn't seem to care about uh any of that or like our actual well-being to regulate, you know, the social media industry or anything like that. It's just it's it's frightening and it's it's preying on people's best intentions. Like you said, they're vulner people are vulnerable. It's not like people want to believe fake shit. They believe it's real, right? And it makes them feel better, and yeah, gosh, I'm going down a rabbit hole here, but Manny reactions.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I think a couple of things. One, um you said that it reminded you of the toxic self-care episode, but for me, it reminded me of our mental health episode. And this might be very dark and cynical, but I think this is the playbook from like the Nazi Germany that we're gonna see is that like, you know, um people who have uh diagnoses of ADHD and other um uh uh learning disabilities or any disability or addiction, like those are not curable. This is who you are. And when we were talking about this in our mental health episode, I think I made reference to this of like, it's not quote unquote fixable, you know. And what I hear underneath all of this conversation is there's a problem with your child that needs to be fixed, and here's how you fix it. And then you move away from the humanity of the child, and you move into this rope, robotic, everybody has to be the same in society, everyone has to fit into this um uh whatever mode so that we can be more capitalistic and produce and get more money. You know what I mean? Like that's where my mind goes to with all of this. So it's like the the intention to quote unquote change this biology of an individual is rooted in um like evil. I I personally feel like because like our our children came to us with these beautiful capabilities, and instead of looking at them as a way to like like uh uh expand and stretch and and and use them abundantly, we're trying to take some of the great pieces of them away to like fit into a society that we want to produce more wealth and and and and a better economy, you know? Um so that's one thing that I think. And then the other thing I hear is that this is like totally elitist. Um people who are in a uh poverty-driven area don't have access to not remove these um ingredients from their diet. And that's again like another thing with the capitalism is that like then these major corporations and industries like McDonald's and and whatever grocery store come into these food deserts and like put this food into these communities, and then you have these people on Instagram and social media saying that you they, you know, it's just driving the poverty gap further and further away. And um like if there is any truth to it, I'm just saying. But like, you know, the and I think this is what the um uh woman who you're referencing talks about is that this is a systemic issue about like access to like good food. And there, and and and my last point will be like, and the more we bulldoze over our forest and our natural resources, the less access we're going to have to actual good food that will provide us with the nutrients that we all need, not just people who have been diagnosed. All of us need this wonderfully nutrient, like efficient food. Um, the more we bulldoze over that and build more things to produce capital, the less of it we're going to be able to have. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, you have really gotten to the core of um what Dr. New York says on her um account and really kind of what I was work wanting to like work towards uh throughout our discussion. Um what she talks about a lot is the difference between your um between personal responsibility versus systems or the difference between wellness and public health. And so before we start, like what comes to mind when you hear those phrases? That's a great question.
SPEAKER_03:Oh I have to think about that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Because for me, it went more political, you know, like pulling yourself up by the bootstraps kind of mentality versus you know, any sort of like safety net. Um do you know what I'm saying? Like her whole um thing is you know, she's a dietitian as well, so she's like, of course, I'm gonna promote, you know, eating whole greens and um vegetables and having protein and you know, all of those things. But when you're talking when you label a movement maha, make America healthy again, what you're describing is public health, but the means to which you are saying that we can reach it is simply based on the individual, which so she's saying what you're suggesting is is what you were saying, Manny, is like you have to have access. A lot of times these wellness influencers actually have a product they want you to buy. Right. And so, you know, if you if you buy this pill, if you use this um machine, or if you add this to your diet, or if you you know, whatever, it it's all about access. And it just continues to create a divide between the haves and the haves not have nots, period. Right. Like, period.
SPEAKER_01:Um as opposed to public health, which is our government making decisions, making laws that support the well-being of our entire country, not just the guy who can afford whatever products are being pushed.
SPEAKER_00:So one of her clips that I um and by the way, all of these are linked um in our show notes. So please um take some time to watch some of these because they're really, really great. But one um I took a lot of notes on and I'm gonna share it right now. The one is called uh Maha Celebrates While Public Health is Dismantled. That's the title of the the video that she did. And in it, and she references articles um like from reputable news sources, and so she said some wins that Maha was celebrating on the human health services website. So that's RFK Jr.'s um domain, I believe. Like
SPEAKER_03:Um and so imaginary little thing, whatever reality he's living in.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So there's three wins that they were celebrating on their website. One was that Utah becomes the first state to ban fluoride in public drinking water. They literally did that. And then number two was Utah.
SPEAKER_01:Meanwhile, that's not his win. That's a state he's at the federal level. So sure, but true.
SPEAKER_00:But it's something like basically Utah was adopting a f policy that they think that we should do at a federal level.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, number two, there's a ban on specific dyes and additives in public school meals. Okay. Okay. And win number three was that there's a ban on purchasing soda using SNAP benefits. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's like Dr. Nerk like comments on that, and she says, like, that has nothing to do, there's no research to support that banning this group of people from buying um soda would increase their health. And that's really uh apployed to control people as opposed to um really trying to help people. She said at the same time that they're celebrating these quote unquote wins, she has a list of things that the Trump administration has done to our health systems. And um, I did put all seven, I'm going to read all seven because she constantly talks about all of these issues, which it does actually contribute to our public health. So, number one, they have cut funding for research by universities and hospitals. Two, so scientists and research is being cut. So that's how we learn. Uh fired thousands of scientists and researchers and public health experts. So I'm sure you guys have heard about like the layoffs at the federal level. Um, number three, eliminated food safety programs at the USDA. Um, so like pollution in our water and soil. Number five, cut a billion dollars from USDA program used to help schools and food banks have access to fresh produce. That right there is way more beneficial than banning um specific dyes and food. How about schools having access to vegetables and strawberries? Jesus. Um, how halt global health funding, which experts warn will increase our risk of future pandemics and our ability to detect disease outbreaks. So, like when we pulled from the World Health Organization or Jesus. And then number seven, billions of dollars cut to Medicaid and SNAP as part of the big beautiful bill, and 17 million people will lose access to Medicaid. Um, and that right there is actually part of our public health system because it's our lowest income individuals who utilize Medicaid and without health insurance, what's going to happen?
SPEAKER_03:Oh my gosh. Wow. Sorry, I'm still processing, but yes, can you repeat the second thing that they were celebrating as a victim?
SPEAKER_00:Um, ban on specific dyes and additives in public school meals.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. That's not what I was thinking. But I was thinking of something of like basically what they um I heard something about like how they just kind of rebranded Michelle Obama's. Like Michelle Obama was like all about like this healthy school choices. And when she was speaking about it, everyone was against the funding for that. And now that they're rebranding it as Make America Healthy again, now they're all all on this like kick to to like improve quality. Oh, don't you worry, I have that too.
SPEAKER_00:Um, that also included there's a tossing them up for you. Tossing them up and um knocking them out of the park. Yes, Dr. Near adjusts that one too. Um, actually, what what you I think are referring to is there's a clip of a guy from I I can't remember if it's like USDA or human health services, I can't remember which organization, but he's like, we're gonna do away with that old food pyramid. Oh, we yes, and um we're going to, you know, whatever he talks about the fact like we can't just say um uh grains, we have to be specific about what type of grains. And so she cuts in, she's like, first of all, we did away with the food pyramid in 2011. Um as part, um, we have been instead of the food pyramid. First of all, when we were kids, it was the four food groups, right? Then they went to the food pyramid, they got rid of the food pyramid in 2011, and now it's called my plate. And basically, you have different categories that your plate should be a full of. And she said, lo and behold, and she pulled up the new nutrition guidelines website. And if you click on the grains one, it does specify that it should be whole grains and what examples um even though his interview says we're going to be more specific so people know exactly what they mean by by grains. And she's like, You're just resaying what, like you said, that was initiated by Michelle Obama's um initiatives, and those things already exist. And so they're basically just repackaging things that that scientists and uh registered dietitians have already done.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Um and then taking credit. But just putting a white face on it and which it like brings me to my next point of like um just this whole like rebranding and repackaging of like you know, and it just indigenous cultures, African people, uh, other people outside of the Americ of outside of America have been saying this about the earth and stuff. It's it's so ironic that they're like, we need to remove this. It's like, bitch, you put it there, you know? Like indigenous people, ancient societies and cultures have been talking about this for a long time, but it was the white European people who came in and colonized and burned down fields and like took away all the great good stuff from the earth and then made the industrial revolution happen. And that's when everything started, our food we started to get sick, you know. Like, and you're about the disease of like they came over with so much disease that wiped out cultures that never saw that disease before, you know. It's like, it's like great, you're you're acting like this is something that like is new, like you have this new idea. It's when really you were the one who made the problem from the start. Like just say that, you know, it goes back to the conversation that we always talk about. Maybe if we just acknowledged what slavery did, what maybe if we just acknowledge what what colonialism did, we wouldn't have to be complicating things this much. And we could actually have this uh, you know, this clean, healthy approach to lifestyle, right? But you're not doing that, and that's what makes me really like upset.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and they're just they're lying. Like they're saying they want us to be healthy, but then they're taking away all of the systems and uh um institutions and organizations that would enable us to improve our public health. So you're not you're not gonna take credit or take the blame for the problems uh in this space if you aren't even telling the truth about what you want to be better. Like it's just smoke and mirrors. I I I I get really frustrated and I feel like I shut down a bit on these conversations because it feels so hopeless. Like stop saying you care about our health. Stop stop saying you want us to eat whole foods and taking away SNAP benefits under the guise of health. You don't actually want any of that because you're cutting the funding to universities and hospitals, the F the USDA, the FDA, the um Medicaid, SNAP, like your list is horrifying.
SPEAKER_00:Like she can't reiterate that enough, that the there's a difference between personal wellness and public health. And if we don't as a as a as a country invest in what makes our public healthy, then um it's just going to be every man for himself. I think when, you know, I think when Michelle Obama introduced these health initiatives, always, you know, like my one of my questions I had for discussion is like, how does Maha relate to other right wing or conservative ideologies? And because I feel like as soon as you start to say, we as a society can, you know, we can invest in programs like you know, Medicaid and SNAP, and we can invest in um, you know, fresh farm to school and fresh farm to, you know, there's systems we can put in place to make sure that everybody has access. Then people start to say, well, you're in infringing on my right to choose whether I want those things or not. And then you're starting to say, Well, I want my government to be smaller, and then I can make my own choices and and stuff. Whereas, like, if you want the public to be healthy, we can create systems that can keep us healthy. Um, and so it's like at first it sounded like you know, coming from a black woman with from a Democrat presidential administration, you guys just want to control us and tell us what what to do. But but the truth is you're removing access. And then another um thing that you said that like that stood out to me, Karen, was just like, or maybe no, I think it was you two, Minnie. You were talking about like what we do to food or what colonialism has done to food, and that also speaks right to capitalism because a lot of the additives and preservatives is so that food tastes good, lasts longer, and so we become, you know, dependent upon the food. And so that's like you know, it's how putting money in their pockets, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right. And it's it's not even the quality of food, it's how we um engage with our food, right? So like we have gone from having gardens like neighborhood gardens or whatever, to having to like go to the grocery store and get our own food. Now we have our groceries being delivered to us, right? It's like, but but all for what? So that we can spend more time at work instead of in community, you know. And so I think that that like to answer your question of the right wing like uh pipeline, there I feel like the difference between I don't even know if it's a comp I don't even know to be fair. I right wing, left wing, whatever. I I can't even identify with anything right now if I'm gonna be completely transparent. But I know what really like makes me upset in many of these conversations is that um what I hear is that the right wing is uninterested in community building. Like they are so uninterested in building around a village where um I think what my learning and growth is right now as a parent and somebody who does really need to rely on community is like that's just different. Like I just really want to build something sustainable and something where I can um not be solely responsible for all the components of the system.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I feel like as soon as you start to say, you know, a program or govern, like, you know, government being involved in any sort of way, they start, oh, you're a socialist, you're a communist, like you don't like you don't believe in free market and whatever. And it's like, yes, but I feel like there's certain, I guess this there's certain aspects of society that should be a group project, like public education, public health, um, our roads, yeah, and and stuff. Like there's certain aspects of our society that we should all be contributing to. Like that.
SPEAKER_03:I agree with that, yes. And I think that goes back to like the how this whole conversation started with the ADHD is that like if we don't start to look at everybody and our unique gifts and like our talents and our skill sets, but we start to see those as deficits, then we start to drain our actual capital. And now we are all actually working more inefficiently. But if everybody has to play the same role, or everybody has to your point of like the wellness, like if I have to do it all, all, all, all, then I'm I'm actually not healthy at all because like I should just be tapping into my own channel, I should just be tapping into my own unique gifts, and then I should be open enough to allowing other people's gifts to fill certain like deficits in my life to help me be more whole, right? But if like in if in my community um we're all we're we're all in competition with one another, then that doesn't happen. And then I'm actually like more drained, more burnt out. I think this is what you're talking about, Karen, of like how this is like in our self-care, like and actually it's actually counter um productive to what the actual like outcome should be, you know. And my friend, she, my friend who does like light work and stuff, she talked about this as like um hopefully this is where our society will move from, whereas like we're not um all of these different industries are going to have like uh you know somebody who can tap into like your the the health, the spiritual, the political, the you know, we're all going to be able to see these different roles and that be the like holistic approach to our like like standard of living. But until we really allow for all of that, then I think we're just gonna find ourselves in more and more conflict. You know, I don't know if it has anything to do with anything that we're talking about. I just went on my own little tangent. No, that's what I saw in my imagination.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like it speaks directly to what we've been saying. Like that's um, especially you said like our a holistic, like we need to have a holistic approach to many aspects of life, including our health. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Here comes judgy, judgmental me.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um I feel like uh back in the day when people were like kind of um talking about if you were if you were if we had Instagram back in the day and the people who were talking about wellness, individual wellness, and things that we need to be cutting from our diet and stuff, you would actually not envision. I okay, I'm not gonna say you, I'm gonna say I, because again, this is coming from a deep place of judgment. I would not envision Patriot Barbie. I would I would envision a crunchy granola hippie person. I feel like back in the day, people who were anti-vax and like all that kind of stuff were actually very liberal. Um, and do you see what I'm saying? Are you so good with this? Yeah, now I see that the wellness industry and the influencers that have like you know bombarded our social media and and now, you know, someone like that is now the head, uh sorry, not like that, but like now to the point where now we have RFK Jr. as the secretary of whatever he is. I feel like it started with because my question was what I was gonna ask was how did we shift from people being kind of crunchy granola, earth, earthy, um more liberal, um communal, like we should have a garden and we should whatever, to now I'm kind of anti-vax, anti-die and stuff like and that be people who would promote this Maha like movement and vote for Donald Trump. Like, yeah, I I've been having kind of a disconnect. Like, why are we now cycling around? Like this girl I'm um like I'm just kind of friends with her on it on social media, we're not like close or anything, and she like homeschools her kids, and you know, she talks, shares a lot of this stuff, like where we need to get rid of dyes and all that kind of stuff, and she is a Trump supporter. And I'm just like, how what happened? Um, where this community of people is talking about quote unquote wellness, but it's not from this like earthy um, we need to, you know, have a community where we have a community garden and things that you were even describing, Manny, at the beginning of the session. And I kind of started to think about it as we were talking, and I feel like it and the question was answered for myself because I do um friends have links to discussion on vaccines as well. Um there's also uh the vaccine came ready to die, guys. Like, because I went on a like down a rabbit hole with this, but I'm wondering if the COVID because remember when the vaccines came out, it was you know the more conservative, like Trump supported people who were against masks and against the vaccine, and all the misinformation about vaccines, about how it and do you guys remember like there were a lot of things being said about the COVID vaccine that it would like cause all sorts of problems and like we're implanting chips, implanting chips and government control. That's kind of went where everyone went, and I feel like since then there's been this new movement of people not vaccinating, like the map the measles outbreak, I think, and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:And those the anti-vaxx thing. I'm sorry to interrupt. The anti-vaxx thing has been going on for much longer than that. It's like she's saying it was more like the liberal.
SPEAKER_03:No, but she's saying the ideology was from like more crunchy, hippie, where like after COVID, it right. Am I saying it's a good idea? That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm talking about people who are adorable party. Exactly. I'm I'm talking about the people who have attached to this anti-vax mentality has shifted from the liberal, earthy, hippie, like, you know, I'm like holistic, you know, natural, like I want natural things in my body kind of thing, but still believe in a lot of social and communal-based ideologies. Are now the people who are attaching attaching to the anti-vax community are more about like government control and the narrative around anti-vax has really changed, and who I'm seeing promote, you know, um but you know, get rid of getting rid of food dyes and all that kind of stuff really feeds into this personal wellness, personal responsibility that promotes our capitalist society. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's like you are blowing my mind right now. Like, and I think why you're doing it is because like extremes are always that, like, extremes are always just mirrors of one another. Yeah, what a pendulum. The extreme of liberalism is the same extreme of like being right wing, you know, or wait, I use liberalism wrong. I think liberalism is actually a different political ideology, but the extreme of being on the left wing is the same extreme as being on the right wing. You're actually actually, you know, just a mirror of one another, which is why we need more like balance, like kind of in in in the middle. Um, and you're blow you're blowing my mind with that. I didn't even think about that whole like transition and shift and uh how COVID the COVID really just put us on a whole different timeline.
SPEAKER_04:We are like, what happened?
SPEAKER_03:That really just was a complete paradigm shift for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:I um not saying I'm not saying COVID like created the anti-vax movement. There was an anti-vax movement prior prior. I'm just saying who jumped onto it and how they're yeah, how they're pushing the the narrative and and stuff is shifting.
SPEAKER_01:I do feel like it's a combination of COVID and the current administration, like those two things coming together at the same time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Even his ideology.
SPEAKER_03:Even his ideology, he was supposed quote unquote more liberal than he was conservative. And then he just found more of Wait, are you talking about RFK?
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm talking about Donald. Way, way, way, way more. Was not a Republican.
SPEAKER_01:That this is one of those lies uh that has been very successfully uh uh told about that like he used to be a Democrat and he used to contribute to the Democratic Party. It's it's simply not true.
SPEAKER_03:He may contributed to the Republican Party.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't know if he always contributed at all.
SPEAKER_03:That's all I mean. That's all I mean is that like even he wasn't like a staunch Republican. It's not like people saw him as like a Republican always. Uh I'm talking about like the his rebrand as a Republican also changed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean he was like, when he came down the escalator in 2016, like he was he was able to speak to that community, like and create like a swell within the Republican Party by just picking a few things and and pouncing on them, really.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but he wasn't always considered as like a like Republican figurehead.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I mean he has he just yeah, he hasn't been in the political sphere even. I mean yeah I'm gonna start.
SPEAKER_03:So like with that, like that also probably created this whole new wave of like I don't know what what is like belief. It's you're just blowing my mind right now, Steph, with this transformation. I don't know. I can't, I can't my professional. It's like now I'm without words because that fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:One more thing before we head into confessionals. Like, what has really moved me with what Dr. Neark has been talking about is if you really want public health, then there are systems that need to be invested in in order to keep us all healthy. And um, and so we're talking about personal responsibility versus systems, individual wellness versus public health. Like, and so what it made me think of was a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King. Um, because um, and so I'm gonna share the quote because like this popped into my head while I was reading all of this stuff, and I did find a video of interview on NBC, and what he says was is beautiful, and I do have the video linked so you can watch it. Um, but um this he says it is a cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself up by his bootstraps, and many Negroes by the thousands and millions have been left bootless as a result of a society that deliberately made his color a stigma and something worthless and degrading. He was um being asked in the interview, the man was like, you know, all these immigrants have come to the United States, can and this is like 1960 something, seven, I think was the interview, and they're figuring it out, they're whatever. And Martin Luther King responds, Well, they were not enslaved people here on this soil. And he gives a brief history of how when slavery ended, no land was given to black people, no money, nothing to get them started. And so that's how he came to, you know, it's a cruel jest to say to a bootless man he ought to pull himself up by the bootstraps. Right. And so when so the reason that this quote came to my mind is it's cruel to talk about personal wellness and personal responsibility when you are cutting SAP benefits. It's cruel to talk about personal wellness when you are cutting Medicaid. It is cruel, you know, it is cruel to talk about personal wellness when you have cut the EPA, which uh controls metals and things in our soil and water. So it's cruel to say we need to find a way individually to make ourselves healthy when you are cutting systems and programs that would help everyone.
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm. I agree. Yeah. When you're coming into communities and using your billions of dollars to bulldoze over their land where they could make food for themselves, but because you get to determine what the value of the land is, you have more money. You can just take that land from them and create food deserts for them where now they are either displaced or you know, tethered to the new sort of food that you have put into their proximity. Like, why can't people see this clearly? I don't understand. That's what like drives me bananas. Like this is why they don't want to study history. It's cause and effect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Just any uh confessionals or um aha's that hit you as we were discussing.
SPEAKER_01:I think for me, we were staring at each other like who goes first. I think for me when we uh first started this podcast, we were wanting to uh intentionally keep politics out, you know, keep our political beliefs out because we wanted to do we wanted to have conversations that both sides of the aisle could really like relate to and understand and demonstrate that we all have more in common than we have um apart, separ separate, different, whatever the word is. And what I would say my confessionalist today is that um in this dialogue I feel very sad and like deflated about these changes, like the the lasting impact these changes are gonna have on our country and on the individuals within the country that I care a little bit less about keeping my politics out of this. My not my politics, my personal beliefs that happen to align more with one party than another. Um, but to Manny's point, I don't really recognize either party anymore. So, anyways, I think the confessional for me is like in in the spirit of like trying to keep a dialogue that both sides can hear, these things are really important to the legitimate health and wellness of all of our people, not just those that can afford to buy the things that they really need. And I really hope people hear that. Like I really hope. Both sides can appreciate that this isn't good for us. And we shouldn't let the wealthy elite, like the handful of people with all of the resources they could ever they could never need, uh, make decisions for the the general public that yeah, that's ultimately gonna kill us. It just it's really sad.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's a good point about like our ideology and our belief while we are like I think I mean my Karen story pretty much revealed we're at it lands on that. Um but Steph's point of the like shift. I was trying to think. I also never really loved crunchy people being affiliated with my political ideology either. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I always kind of was like, oh, really?
SPEAKER_03:You know, I just always kind of felt like there was a something there that I just was like, I don't really, you know. Um and I think that's part of my confessional, but it just is like being a discerning individual in today's society is really challenging because it's so subtle, these like various attachments to certain ideologies. And it's just like I think, you know, again to Karen's point, I think it's important, you know, to like really state when I am struggling of like I don't even necessarily know who who's worthy of my vote right now, you know. I'm so my civic engagement is more grassroots right now with what I'm doing in my own um personal life, um, which I think kind of responds to like personal wellness versus um public health. I think what I don't like about all of this uh crunchiness, anti-vax, whatever, maha, is the arrogance around it and like that that it has to have a type, like it has to have a title. I'm this now, you know? It's like why don't you it's that that's the whole Karen thing. Like, why don't you just shut the fuck up and just be? Why don't you just be? Why don't why why do you have to um announce it, influence it, push a product, right? Why don't you just do it long enough that it becomes part of your lifestyle and it's so attractive enough that other people will want to have what you have without having to pay a profit for it? Why don't you just shut the fuck up and just live your own goddamn life, you know? Like that I feel like would be a way easier way of living, you know, and and then this public health conversation could be a little bit more um effective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I feel like um the idea that I think the thing that's standing out to me through our conversation is that certain aspects of life should be a group project, in my opinion. Like my ideologies say that public education, public health, infrastructure, all of those things speak to um a left-leaning perspective. And it's to our health, you know. I'm kind of I'm glad Karen brought up the fact that you know, initially we were trying to kind of toe the line and be a bit more inclusive, but I feel like the the way that things have changed, like this the landscape, it feels irresponsible not to say out loud that we should invest in the EPA so we don't have metals in our soil. Like I feel like it's irresponsible to not say out loud that you know our lowest income earners should have access to some sort of healthcare care like Medicaid. Like it just feels irresponsible to not just say out loud like these things. Um, and then I think about um how it's so insane. Like Dr. King comes to my mind, you know, in this quote that he says about pulling yourself up by the bootstraps speaks right to what's happening now. People always call on Martin Luther King for well, nonviolence and all this stuff. And he was anti-war, he was pro-union, he was um all about creating systems that build equity, uh, anti-poverty, yeah, anti-poverty and all those kind of things. And what is sitting with me is that all of this stuff is related, so maha, it is all of the stuff is related to one another. So cuts to public education, the department of education cuts to all of that stuff, it all comes together. And um I think Manny, you said it right at the top. It's it's fascist, you know, it's like it's really trying to put all power into one one in the high, you know, the highest earners and leaving this gap just to keep getting bigger and bigger. And so it's um, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it reminds me of that. I'm sorry, I know we have to wrap, but it just reminds me of that like clip that I think was circling around a couple years ago of like, why does this have to be politically affiliated? Why can't this just be basic like like human decency? Why does like I want to like not have a huge homeless population have to be me being liberal? Yeah you know, like the government helping out with that.
SPEAKER_01:Like, why does everybody because they can't control us if they don't divide us, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right. No, but that's what I'm saying is that like these labels that we've created like have taken away from the core, which you know, again, is that like is human decency. Yep. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Well, thank you um for listening to another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. Um, like, subscribe, follow us wherever you listen, and don't forget to hit up our show page for articles, reference. There are so many links, guys, for this episode. Um, you should watch every single one and just go on ahead and follow Dr. Jessica Nurik. Her account is amazing. She pulls um up thing people actually saying these things and then links reputable sources to combat them, and she's just wonderful. So follow her. Um and all the links are on our show page. Um, and if you miss us between our now and our next episode, drop us um a comment on Instagram. You can call me Karen underscore pod. Um, you can find us on YouTube and on TikTok, talk TikTok at you can call me Karen. Um, so thanks for joining us, and we will see you next week.
SPEAKER_04:Bye, bitches.
SPEAKER_06:And the box, and the green box, and the battle box, and the blue one, and the box, and a yellow one, and they're all made out of tiki tacky, and they all look just the same.
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