You Can Call Me, Karen
You Can Call Me Karen is caught in the middle—too young for Gen X, too tired for Gen Z. Hosted by Manni, Steph, and Karen, three sharp-tongued friends raised on dial-up tones and Dawson’s Creek, the show unpacks the pop culture that shaped the ‘90s and early 2000s. With wit and candor, they dissect the contradictions of coming of age in that era, never afraid to channel their inner Karen if it means saying the quiet parts out loud. No advice, just real talk: a bold, funny, side-eye-laced ride through nostalgia, modern womanhood, and the messiness in between.
You Can Call Me, Karen
GenAI Syndrome
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the rise of generative AI, its implications for society, and the challenges it presents in education. We explore the potential benefits and risks of AI, including its impact on the job market and the importance of teaching students to use AI responsibly. The conversation also touches on the ethical considerations surrounding AI and the need for equitable access to technology in education.
Keywords
Generative AI, technology, education, AI ethics, job market, critical thinking, AI in politics, AI in business, AI applications, future of work
Karen story references:
Justin Scott on instagram @this.cypher
Jenna Johnson on instagram @jennajohnson
GenAI reference articles:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/technology/hard-fork-sam-altman.html?searchResultPosition=15
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/26/technology/ai-elections-democracy.html?searchResultPosition=2
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/alexa-plus-gen-ai-preview/?searchResultPosition=3
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/01/us/politics/state-ai-laws.html?searchResultPosition=7
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/19/opinion/linkedin-ai-entry-level-jobs.html?searchResultPosition=8
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/07/technology/chatgpt-openai-colleges.html?searchResultPosition=9
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
And the blue one fox and the yellow one and the little When I first started hearing about AI and specifically generative AI or Gen AI, my my mind immediately went to the Jetsons. I remember watching that cartoon as a kid and thinking a world like what the Jetsons lived in was hundreds and hundreds of years in the future. But now with Gen AI, it's it's really closer than I ever imagined. The idea of all of it is pretty incredible. And the thought of everyone having a personal assistant robot to wait on their every need, and uh and for work to be largely automated uh or at least much easier is just incredible. But then we start to see the frightening side of AI. We're already seeing things like election interference, loss of entry-level jobs, copyright infringement, and so much more. So today we will discuss AI in all of its glory on this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. Hello, ladies. This is Karen. And that is my lovely co-host Manny. Hey Manny.
SPEAKER_03:I just saw Lilo and Stitch with Millie, and that is like one of the ways Stitch says hi in the beginning. Remember when he tries to pose as a dog? He's like, huh, hi. No Lilo and Stitch friends over here? No, no. Sorry, you lost us. All right. Well, and also we have that reference. You're not my real friends. You're just co-host.
SPEAKER_01:Um uh also we have Steph who is equally mad but about a different movie. Oh yeah, hi.
SPEAKER_00:Do you want to let them in on the insight? Well, it turns I I feel like it's just I've just come to realize that Karen has never seen Forrest Gump, which is like says she hasn't seen any movie. She hasn't seen any movie.
SPEAKER_01:And I feel like we've covered this one though. Yeah. No, I don't remember. Listeners, we need you to comment, please, and prove the fact that you never see forrest gump and that it's shitty as hell. They already knew that and they've been over it for months. No, I don't think anyone will get over the fact that you haven't seen Forrest Gump.
SPEAKER_00:That's like an atrocity. Forrest Gump is just so key. And I I I'm still struggling with that information.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, all it screams is you never had a gym coach AP history teacher um and growing up because I know that that was a ritual in our classes when we were in high school.
SPEAKER_02:We really no, you guys never watched Forrest Gump in school. Well, obviously. No, I did not watch it in school.
SPEAKER_03:But it came out when like Catholic education, Catholic school education.
SPEAKER_00:It came out when I was in, I think like sixth grade. And I remember all we would always quote that movie, and we'd be like, Jenna. And like it was just like I remember that. Yeah. You don't remember shit.
SPEAKER_02:Shut up, bitch. I remember the quoting. And I remember running towards room. What would you do? Would you do that when people quoted? You'd be like, You would just say it back to I was just there. I just went along with it.
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, life like a mops of chocolate.
SPEAKER_00:So funny.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it was so quoted that I knew all the quotes. I just didn't know them in context.
SPEAKER_00:That is a movie I'm gonna task you with watching. I think you're gonna watch it on the plane.
SPEAKER_03:Watch it on the plane on your way to New York City.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's your homework with my seven-year-old child in tow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he can't watch it, or he doesn't have fucking Lilo and Stitch access.
unknown:Come on.
SPEAKER_00:Wait, you're not talking about Lilo, or we're talking about Forrest Gump, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I'm just saying that he can't watch his own movie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What I can say, you're just making movies, is the thing. The thought of just sitting still and watching a movie is a lot for me. Um, I did do that though with Maxwell last weekend. We went and saw Elio. Oh, yeah, I heard of this. Yeah, it was cute. But that's all I watch now. I've seen all of the Disney movies except Willow and Stitch appearances. But I'm sure that's coming for me. Anyways, that was nice. I was gonna ask how you guys were doing because I feel like we haven't checked in in a while, but I feel like we're pissed.
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna get a knuckle sandwich. You're gonna get a knuckle sandwich.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, that means we think of all the memes of like um you're like I if you f I know I've sent them to you guys, black people being asked like what's your favorite white person? Like white person is them.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, white white person ism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:You're skating on thin ice buddy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you're skating on thin ice bud.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, all right. So on that note, ladies, this week I want to know who you calling, Karen.
SPEAKER_00:I have one. Good. Do it. Um so mine is okay, so there's a really popular um dancer named Jenna Johnson. She's on Dancing with the Stars. She actually just won this past season. She was partnered with uh the guy from The Bachelor. You guys know what I'm talking about? Jenna? I mean, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about. Oh, I'm s I feel like I do know Manny. I thought that you watched Dancing with the Stars. You don't?
SPEAKER_01:No, I thought he was on um So You Can Dance dance a long time ago, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:She was, and now she's on um Dancing with the Stars. She's married another um ballard dancer named Val.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Jenna and I'm going to tell everyone. Jenna Johnson and um Val, I don't know his last name. They're married, and she's on Dancing with the Stars now, but yes, she was, and So You Think You Can Dance. And the two of them teach on one of the circuits that my studio goes to. And so she's I really like her a lot. So I follow her on Instagram, and um it is July 6th, and so right now um the Dance Awards, which is a really big studio competition, the the Vegas version is happening right now. So Jenna and Val are in Vegas for the dance awards, and they teach their class together. So the class is Jenna and Val, and they're amazing, like just perfection. Love them so much, they're amazing to watch. And so they post, like, oh, I'm on the plane, like uh we're on our way to Vegas, we're in Vegas now. And then she put her social media is really fun to watch, and she just posts a lot and it's fun. Then she's um they have a son, and his name is Rome. He's adorable, he has like a little ponytail, he's just he's over two, uh, like just turned two. And so she's like, he's here, and posts that he so I don't know if he was like with a nanny or something, and then joined them in Vegas, and so she was showing pictures, like, he's here, and she's like giving him snuggles and like big hugs, and he is dancing and having a good time, and it's just like so cute. But then one of the pictures that she posts is of him, she's holding him, and he is drinking from a bottle, as in like a bottle, and he's like a baby bottle, like a baby bottle. And I'm not gonna lie, I did think to myself, like, oh, he's still drinking out of a bottle. Oh, oh well, you know, like whatever. Um, but I thought to myself, oh, it's probably a little old for that, but who knows? Like, everybody has their own thing. Quinn, we're still working on getting rid of her passing, so you know, shit happens, and so it was just like a fleeting thought, and life moved on. A day or two later, she posts, hi everybody, in her stories. I got a lot of messages, direct messages, DMs, wow, commenting on the fact that her son was drinking from a bottle, and she was like, and um, she's like, I know I share a lot of my life on here, and you know, sometimes I am willing to hear some feedback, and if you have some advice on how to whatever, okay. But I also got this message and she screenshot it and shared it, and this woman had the mother-effing audacity to write her and say that fat R word is too uh-huh, R word is too big to be drinking from a bottle. And she was like, Yeah, and so she continued to write, like, you're a mother. Like, what if I said that about your child? Like, you know, it's one thing to say, like, hey, my kid had a bottle for too long, and so I did this or that, but to call like I am, I like gasped when I saw it and like showed Steve. I was it just made my stomach churn. Like, what the F is wrong with people? What is wrong with people? Wow. So oh my goodness, yeah, and you know, and it's so upsetting because she doesn't have to share her life like she does, and I but I really like her account because I feel like it's real, and I relate to her a lot because when she was on Dancing with the Stars, her son was home with Val because Val wasn't on the show. It just like got like dad taking some extra parenting time and some solo parenting time and stuff, and she always praises him, like he's the real MVP, he's been doing this, and so I was like, Oh, I love how she's sharing how she's parenting with her partner, and she just shares a lot of cool perspectives and she's killing the game in the dance community, and yeah, now you know someone's gonna come after her child like that. Like, no wonder people don't want to share their lives and stuff, and I feel like she has had a really positive impact on me, and I feel like she's gonna probably claim up a bit, and as she should, because F that bitch. F that bitch.
SPEAKER_03:That is so gross, gross to talk about somebody's child like that that you don't even know, like to talk about anybody's child like that is really horrible. I don't know. I'm I'm sad that she had to experience that just like on top of what you were saying, like other people coming in and commenting on it, which I'm also surprised anyone in our personal circle hasn't commented. Why was she surprised by that? I don't know, but like surprised by like people saying anything. But how old is the kid again?
SPEAKER_00:Over two, like not quite three.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't really matter, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Um I mean, like everybody has their has their things that they were through with their kids, like it is what it is. Like, yeah, and mind your own damn business.
SPEAKER_01:Mind your own business. Right. Like your child unnamed lady is so is just perfect all around.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, hitting all the developmental milestones.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's just sad. Oh gosh, the audience because I wanted to see I wanted to see her family and her baby and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm not really one to like, I would not she's a celebrity, like I would, but I typed up a message, like I was gonna send it to her. Like, girl, you're killing it. I typed in this whole thing. You are an amazing mom. You were doing the damn thing. F that bitch, and then I deleted it because she doesn't need a random message, you're little old me but. I just couldn't, I was so sick to my stomach.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But Jenna, if you're listening, I adore you. And I think that you are an amazing mom and you are just a fierce bitch, and you better work, mom.
SPEAKER_03:You better work.
SPEAKER_00:You better work.
SPEAKER_03:That baby can be sucking on those nipples however long he wants.
SPEAKER_00:When he's ready. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:When he's ready to release, when you say it like that, it's very graphic for me. Yeah, that was that uncomfortable, but I hear you and I support.
SPEAKER_02:Well, some people don't tell people breastfeed until right. So what's the difference? Like the diff. What's the difference? A nipple's a nipple.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Greg, I have nipples. You want to suck on mine too? I don't think Karen knows the quote.
SPEAKER_01:I do. Meet the parents or meet the Fokker's one of them. Yeah, yeah. Why not? I've seen all the dumb 90s and early 2000s comedies, you know.
SPEAKER_03:That's my no, I don't know. Because your argument was that you didn't have enough attention span to sit through a movie. So no, you can't say that. Yeah. You can okay, thank you. No, okay. Um speaking of accountability, so I'm finally gonna do it. My Karen of the Week is white supremacy. Hey. I'm just gonna get it out there.
SPEAKER_01:Taken accountability for, right? That's where you're going. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I'm just going to get it out there. Um, so there is a TikToker who I follow named Justin Scott. He is just, uh there is no word to define Justin Scott except for, I guess, undefinable. He is out of like he is not of this dimension when he talks about um the world in which we all live, and civilization, and history, and facts. And I sent you guys one video, and it he can be very, he can he gets like he's very deep and and just uh you have to like really have an attention, speaking of attention span to be able to like listen all the way through. And he talks really fast, but what he says, like if you are listening, it is powerful. So um he posts these videos, and one of the videos that I scrolled across last night was on the myth of white supremacy. Like, if white supremacy is supreme, then how come they had to? So basically, like if white supremacy is supreme, then how come they had to like enslave people and then have reconstruction and I mean and then have Jim Crow laws and segregation and how why did it buckle under like a bus boycott? Like, if white supremacy is supreme and like better than everything, then it wouldn't be scared of these like movements, essentially, you know? Um he on paraphrasing, he does a way better job of talking about it. But one of the things that like what I was just like, holy smokes, he said, white supremacy is built on stolen rituals, suppressed ancestors, and rebranded myths. They conquer other societies and put the brilliance of a few in boxes in a museum and call that civilization. I was like, what? The way he just cuts through this current reality of how people exist within the world, and he's like, wait, this is all false. I just like the audacity for white supremacy to call museums civilization after what I was like, holy moly, you are living on a whole nother ether right now. So anyway, I just wanted to shout him out because I really love his stuff, and I wanted to say that my Karen will always be white supremacy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I feel like that is kind of what Karen is. Yeah, what is uh personified white supremacy?
SPEAKER_00:Personified white supremacy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's my big word of the day.
SPEAKER_00:I'm out yeah, that's it right there. I agree, like the inability to mind your own business, yeah. Colonization, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, or this idea that you're I I it's kind of similar to what we talked about last week of I'm gonna take this from you. Um, you had it all along, but I'm just gonna call it this other thing, and that's what makes it better than you, you know, and it's not me, but it's me the whole time. Yeah, it's me the whole time. You're not supreme to me because that is me. You know, you just called it something else, and you took it without permission, you took it with violence, and now you're saying that that is what makes you better. No, that's actually makes you evil and hurtful and harmful and wicked. I don't like using wicked because wicked has a new connotation now. But anyway, all right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, on that note, oh really? We're just gonna jump in? Okay, fine. Those are your parents for the week. All right, it's such a such a smooth segue from white supremacy to gen AI. So we're gonna just do that. We're going to talk today about generative AI or Gen AI. Um, hopefully our listeners have heard about this in the news over the past couple of years, but I will quickly define what it is along with LLMs or large language models, just so that we all are speaking the same language when we're in this conversation. So essentially, there has been machine learning or AI technology for quite some time, which basically takes a certain set of data or information and through repetition learns from it so that it can repeat tasks on data. It's often used in business to speed up or create efficiencies in processes. The difference with generative AI is that it is not focused on just a very specific subset of data to repeat tasks within a similar data set. It actually takes from, in many cases, like everything on the internet. And this is where the large language model comes in. It pulls from any data format, it pulls from multiple languages, and it starts to learn and theoretically generate new data or new insights based on the information that it's taken in. And so that concept of creating something new with existing information is what makes it unique and quote generative. I keep putting these things in quotes because I think there's still a lot of debate of how generative it is. And so we can talk a little bit about that today, but I did want to start with just that context so that our listeners have that foundation of what it is that we're focused on, what is the technology itself. The thing that I realized as I was doing a bit of reading of what is just the latest conversation around Gen AI is that there's a gazillion applications for this type of technology. We've seen it in certainly in business, like we talk about Gen AI and my work all the time, and how do we apply it to create efficiencies, to improve productivity, to take away mundane tasks, things like that. But there's applications in art, you can see it in marketing and social media, you can see it being used in the media directly, in politics. There's just a million ways that this type of technology is being used. And so I think all of those topics could theoretically be an entire episode for us, but uh, we are not the experts, and so we're not going to go down that path of a seven-part series on Gen AI. Um, and so to today, I I thought we could do a bit of a choose your own adventure on Gen AI. I read through a bunch of articles on the latest thinking on a variety of topics. I wanted to share some options with you too, and then we can uh dive in where you maybe have a particular interest or a lot of questions. But um, yeah, I think I'm gonna list off a few things. We're gonna go choose your own adventure. You tell me what excites you the most, if that's cool.
SPEAKER_02:Do we have a choice?
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_01:You don't have a choice. Well, you do have a choice. It's choose your own adventure.
SPEAKER_03:I am by here's my AI robot coming in. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that would be. I almost, as I was prepping for this, I almost went out to like chat GPT and recorded my voice so that it could create an intro in my voice for the episode, but that creeped me out too much, so I didn't do it.
SPEAKER_03:Um, have that capability?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Certain, yeah, certain gen AI tools do. I don't know. I think you need a professional, like a up-level tool.
SPEAKER_03:Chat GPT does not, I don't think.
SPEAKER_01:No, but there is I can't remember Chat GPT doesn't do your voice. Right, but there are Gen AI capabilities that you can speak to it, it learns your voice, and then it literally creates you sick, which is it's terrifying.
SPEAKER_00:Terrifying. Yeah, when I we I went to um a professional development, the presenter was talking about basically like us educators, we need to get on board with AI because we want to be able to utilize it and its benefits. And um, but one of the things he showed was that that there I don't know which one, like there he showed Chat GPT, but then he showed all these different ones. And there's one, like Karen said, you can record your voice and then it will take a uh an existing message and then make a video of you talking, saying stuff that you didn't say. You could record something in a different language, and it looks like you are speaking whatever language you're using that for. I mean, it was mind-blowing, it was insane. There's also on, I think it's called Udio, and it will make a song. Like you could say, I want a song in the likeness of Taylor Swift in whatever, and I want it to be about this, and it'll just produce a song for you.
SPEAKER_01:So anyway, it's you can see how it would be so much fun, fun, but also so when you when you mentioned like speaking, it takes your voice and it can make you say whatever. There was one article that I was reading about the impact of AI on on politics and campaigns, not just in the US around the world. And there was a specific example in Romania where there was the spread of this video of Trump endorsing a specific candidate who this video was completely faked. It was not real at all, and it literally swayed the entire campaign, and this candidate that Trump was endorsing, well, was fake endorsing one. And so Romania actually retracted those results. They found it wasn't just that video, there was a lot of um interference, and I think I I'll need to go back and confirm this in the article, but I'm pretty sure it was found to be Russian interference specifically. Um and that yeah, and so they they took away that result and they ran a new election, and it was like a really JD Vance commented on it apparently, and like in a way that was saying something that the democracy worked if your democracy is so unstable that one fake video can sway the election. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:When you're America.
SPEAKER_01:And that's a wrap. Yeah, but uh yeah, so it's um that is definitely the dark side of that technology that you're describing stuff. But the other thing that your story there made me think of is this article I was reading about how open AI is making a really concerted effort to um basically, for lack of a better word, infiltrate colleges and universities. And so they're offering Chat GPT, I think free to all students. They're working with a lot of colleges and universities to implement their tools and capabilities at various points in not just the educational process, but the administration of the universities. And while I like as a business person, I'm like, yes, there is so much efficiency to be had by Gen AI. It has to be done in the right way and it has to be controlled in the right way, in my opinion, because we've all thrown something into Chat GPT and gotten a false, you know, response. And so you have to be careful with the way that you're using it and thoughtful. But I do, as a as a business person, see the obvious opportunities that the technology presents. I think the thing that struck me about this article was the conversation around how open AI is essentially grabbing audiences at a very pivotal point of their development and education, so that I think the intent is to hook them on Chat GPT so then they become lifetime users. So it's really a capitalistic, you know, mentality, which is a constant theme on this podcast. It always comes back to fascinating to see, yeah, the it, they're they're playing a real long game here, right? Like if you get them using our tools at such a pivotal point in your mental development, then it's in the long run, you've got lifetime users essentially. And then you can just think of all of the the like revenue channels that they'll get from those people over the course of a lifetime, not just in a professional space, but in a personal space as well. So there's a lot there. What's your question? No question, reactions only. I feel like Manny, you're a big user of Chat GPT, aren't you? Jesus. Stop calling me all.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I would like to comment on a couple of things. One, like I I I'm I'd love to explore more the difference of like getting hooked on Chat GPT versus getting hooked on Google, you know, like what kind of is like the difference, like, you know, well as a I remember, no, this will go into my next comment. That doesn't fit here. Just in saying of like when people go to a search engine, like what's the difference between a search engine it and getting hooked on it, of like why is Google the preferred, I guess because of the like accuracy, it doesn't hallucinate, quote unquote, it doesn't hallucinate. But now there's sponsorships or whatever that get on the like top page that are paid for. You know, there's still there's like an equity issue too with like Google that I think also exists, which what you were saying with ChatGPT. I can say from my own personal experience, our university has not had those conversations with outside organizations for Chat GPT. I was just in a forum in the beginning of the summer around Chat GPT and higher education. And it was just a group of professors. To your point, how the conversation a decade ago was like, oh, computers in the classroom. How are we going to manage computers in the classroom? Many people were like, it's coming, like, get over it. Like, you need to learn how to teach a compute on a computer as opposed to fighting the fact that a computer's coming in a classroom. It's a similar conversation with Chat GPT and AI of like, you need to learn how to teach it for our students as opposed to fighting the fact that it's actually here. My and this was my experience of like, I had a term paper in the last semester that I assigned to my students, and I ended up just like emailing them out three weeks before the term paper was due that, like, I'm removing that assignment because I knew they all would put it into Chat GPT. So I'm like, well, if you don't want to write it, I don't want to grade it, then why are we even having this? There was a different. There was a very strenuous assignment that they had to do in order to pass the core or like as a final assessment, which actually was uh rooted in their research around AI. But like that's the kind of thinking and innovation that like I believe education kind of needs is like, don't am I really upset because they use ChatGPT or a tool that was like available to them? Or like, am I really upset with myself and my pedagogy that like just needs to change right now?
SPEAKER_00:Ooh, can I jump in on that really quick?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, because I'm a middle school teacher, so we're we're teaching skills of reading text and referencing it in your writing and claim and then evidence and then warrant and like all that kind of stuff. And then when you're an English teacher in even social studies and then math, I when our students are assessed by the state at the end of the year, half of the assessment, you're not allowed a calculator. So they need to be able to solve problem solve without any calculator or any sort of like, you know, they're not allowed to have their notes or references and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03:And so sorry, did you just say that the statewide test, they're not allowed to use a calculator for part of their state estimate?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Uh elementary, all of elementary, I think, is no calculator at all. Sixth grade is half non-calculator, half calculator. Seventh grade is half calculator, not and then the other half is uh no non-calculator. And then eighth grade and up, you're allowed a calculator. So when I moved from when I moved from eighth grade math to sixth grade math, like I was just like, this is because it's basically do you have the the number sense? You know, when I taught, when I taught eighth grade, if you don't have computation skills, you we basically just were like, well, you know, it's kind of like we we're gonna have to teach them how to use calculator and how to whatever, because you could still problem solve and do algebra and all this kind of stuff, and you'd punch the the arithmetic in the calculator, but you still can learn the problems in sixth grade. I'm teaching decimals, they have to be able to long divide with decimals without a calculator. They have to be able to do ratios and proportions without a calculator. They need to be able to divide fractions without a calculator. So half of the gear is if you don't have number sense, you are struggling, struggling. And so and insane, like English, the English state test, they basically are given two like two articles and they have to read it, re-answer questions, they're usually multiple choice centered around like comprehension, and then they have to write a five-paragraph essay on the spot, and usually have having to find like a common theme and make a claim and have a thesis with evidence um supporting where you're coming from from the text that you literally just read. So you're teaching these skills. And so if throughout the year your assignments, the kids are using chat GPT, then they're not exercising those muscles. So basically, we were more concerned about AI coming in, and kids are just gonna cheat through assignments, you know, kind of like what you were saying, Manny. So basically, they kind of gave us suggestions on ways to nav to kind of like get around using Chat B GBT. So they suggest A, a lot of things that you're having them do should be done in class. Also, the the questions that you're asking them, if you make them specific, like something you said in the room, like now.
SPEAKER_03:I know remember some of this, but yeah, like make it make it more like immediate, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that chat GPT wouldn't be. Yeah. Like, you know, if you tell a story about like write something about some like breakfast food or something, like make it something that they they have to incorporate, something's happening immediately in the room.
SPEAKER_03:This is what drive I'm sorry to cut you off, but this is what drives me crazy about education. It's like we're gonna do like a skills assessment for you at the end of the year that you have to pass, knowing that the world is moving in this direction with technology. We have full control over changing the assessment to build competencies in a different skill set. But no, we're gonna make it so that you have to teach competencies in this skill set, knowing good and well when they come out of school, they're not gonna need that. Correct. That drives me bananas.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, that's such a good point. I mean, I feel like maybe there's just like this old school traditional in me where, you know, I do want kids to be able to read text and make a claim about it and write. And I teach sixth grade. So, like, you know, I don't want them to rely on technology to produce, you know what I mean? And so I think that's why at this point in their educational journey, we do need to teach them skills to be able to read and write and compute. But like if I were teaching high school and they were saying, you know, that they can't utilize these resources because they're headed in, you know, then that's different. But we are it's pretty foundational here in middle school. And it's kind of the synthesis of like what they've learned in elementary school, and now it's application and and stuff like part of me.
SPEAKER_03:There's like an old school in me, like you need to be able to open a book, find a quote that's you know, what I'm saying is that like I I totally agree. I think that these things are fundamental, but then they do things that are like counterproductive of like spending billions of dollars on computers and those Chromebooks for kids to learn on Chromebooks. And it's like, well, wait a second. Like we have to now teach the toolbar and like everything on how to access, like how to how to read a computer. So are we investing in computers? Are we investing in the skill set? And like I don't have enough time in the school year to teach both. Like, so so what is it, what is it gonna be? That that's all I'm saying is like I just both are require at that developmental age significant amount of practice and time in order to be able to build this. Like I remember Brielle's teacher assigning homework with like Google Slides, and they had to like define certain words, and the school like limited access to right-click define. And it's like, well, wait a second, we're working on this small little ass Chromebook where the screen is like three inches long, and so now she has to pull up a whole nother tab to find the definition instead of using the computer literacy skill of right-click define the word where she could just input it right. You know what I mean? Like those kind of things are are um counterproductive and they're not teaching proper digital like literacy or citizenship. And it drives me crazy. I know this is not what this is about, but like it does drive me crazy in the institution of education. Like they want to be able to like push students into like the modern world and have them be specifically engaged and have them be like prepared for uh post-secondary experiences, but then they do stuff like that. That like, okay, when are they when are they supposed to learn it? And all it does is just build up frustration in a student where then they would want to go to Chat GPT and just get the answer quicker instead of learning how to do it with what's right in front of them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that that that bit is important because what I was reading, I'm sorry, what I was reading about with regards to education was this concern that by utilizing chat G chat GPT for everything, we are potentially eroding critical thinking skills, which makes good sense on it on the surface. But the reality that you're pointing to, Manny, is that chat GPT is there and other gen AI solutions, it's not going away. And so what we should be thinking about is how do we teach our students to utilize the tools that are available to them in responsible ways. So when like there's plenty of times where I'm prepping for this podcast, yeah, and I use Chat GPT to help me figure out like which direction do I go? And then it links all of the sources for the information that it provides me. So rather than citing chat GPT, which comes with a lot of flaws, we know, I go to those sources then and I read through those and I make sure those are real and reputable and all of that stuff. And so I think if we did a better job, and it's still new, so I do give a lot of grace to our education system because responding to the changing technology live is challenging. I mean, changing curriculums without new technology is a lot. And so it'll catch up, I realize, but I think ignoring it or like saying you can't use it is silly because we all know they're going to. So let's teach them the right way to utilize this tool that will help them be more efficient. We'll still build those critical thinking skills, you know, and give them access to the code.
SPEAKER_03:I think that that's like that was the conversation of our like forum is like, okay, there is a very thin line between what is like ethically appropriate and what is not. So, like, how can how can we have teachers using chat GPT to develop a syllabus, but then a student can't use Chat GPT for whatever you might, you know what I mean? Like, why is it okay because you're in a position of power to use Chat GPT for your main like course like outliner development, but like a student can't use it for this. And then, like, what is the repercussion for a student using Chat GPT since we are kind of in this whole like, what is the ethics of AI, right? And so, like, in that conversation, I was heartbroken to hear that like a teacher had to fail three students at the end of the semester for doing a final for using chat GPT on their final, which is why I took mine out, right? Is like because I did not, I did not feel prepared as an educator to have that conversation with my students about like ethics and AI and using it for your final assessment because to your point, it is so new and the university doesn't have any, I think, right now, quality uh academic repercussions for students using AI in the classroom, you know.
SPEAKER_00:So that that that I think is like what is the ethics behind like when, when not, and it's well I feel like I feel like when we were talking about it, like this was like maybe two years ago when people were just kind of more AI was becoming more popular, excuse me, and people were more concerned about students just like using it to write their papers and like and stuff, and not necessarily just the the positive things of like the research and compiling sources and all that kind of stuff, because that's positive, you know. And so we talked about our definition of play like within our um district and what is plagiarism. That's so and yes, and that's kind of what I think what you're getting at is like the ethical, like if you're passing off if you're passing off content as your own, that's really plagiarism. Like, and you're that's not ethical to say that you wrote this paper if it's not your words, you know, especially because part of what we teach is if you're going to make a claim and then provide evidence to support the claim, the claim should be your idea or your thoughts or your opinions. There's evidence to support it, and then you cite where that information came from. You should give credit to where the information came from. You know, that's just you know, and maybe again, that's old school foundation, what old school school, but that's a skill to be able to give credit back to where you got the information from. But if you just are putting a prompt in from an assignment and then whatever is spit out, and then you're turning it in as if it's your work, that's not ethical. And it's not and it doesn't show what you're doing.
SPEAKER_03:Like your rubric should like to your point of like your rubric when you grade students should have like sources, should have like all the critical thinking touch points that you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00:Um, where a yes, but if the filler because like when you put in a prompt and then it spits out an essay, for example, and it sounds too academic, you could say now write it from the perspective of a 15-year-old student and add in spelling errors. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Like you can like upload former material that you've written and say, write it in my voice. In my voice, like you know, and so I I don't know if you're not giving the kids any ideas or anything like that.
SPEAKER_03:Like, we're one step ahead of you, bitch.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's what I did on my last when I did my final essay, and that's how I passed my class LA. Yeah. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:I just feel like it also brings up a good point of like equity, right? Because like I feel like certain subscriptions you only are allowed to do. You get certain features. You get certain features, which like that like is another piece of like this conversation of like, okay, you we talk about like how colleges might or might not be like collaborating with ChatGPT, but what about like high school students who are using that on like college, like to get into schools because they have access to like a new product than students who don't who are not paying for that, you know. So like there is some like definitely equitable conversations here too about the the paywall.
SPEAKER_00:And on the flip side, one of my coworkers, her uh daughter is in college, and she is very right, bright, uh, a really talented writer. And one of her professors assumed that she was using AI, and she had to like defend that it was her writing. She really did write it herself, and um had to go through I can't remember what all the steps was. And she is like a buy the book. This kid, like, you know, there's kids who push the edge, she is not one of them. Right, yeah. A big rule follower, yes, like yeah, and she was questioned her integrity.
SPEAKER_03:That's terrible. See, like that's I can't take that. I can't take that. That's like that that is heartbreaking to me. You know, that's heartbreaking. I think another thing that like a piece of the critical thinking that I don't know, it just kind of interests me is that like if you are using it, I don't know if appropriate is the word is the right word, but when one of the presenters said, like, sometimes the prompting is like basically writing code to a computer. Like, I think like that mindset really helps me to like accept like this quote unquote movement. And he is like, and my prompts sometimes are four pages long, right? Like there's the critical thinking is like how you speak code to the computer is the critical thing. So like maybe it's more of like turn in your prompts of what you would show your work.
SPEAKER_01:It's like show your work, show your work, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:As opposed to I think that is that's something that a number of the articles that I will include the links to in our show notes, but uh a lot of them talked about the the application in the business world and the risk that the what's formerly entry-level jobs are now going away because they're being replaced by AI. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because, first of all, there's not really any data yet that supports the fact that entry-level jobs are being fully replaced by AI. There's also a lot of studies out there that suggest there will be, oh, it was something like 70 million. I mean, it was some astronomical number of like new jobs created thanks to the invent of Gen AI. So it's similar to, I think, of like the Industrial Revolution or Silicon Valley boom, you know, like as things, as we have these large inflection points in technology or invention, everything shifts. And so the entry-level position might now be like exactly what you're describing, Manny, is like students who have come up through the school system and learned how to write really sophisticated, really advanced prompts to generate even new ideas or new outputs.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so they're while it's still an entry-level job, the things that they're doing are actually gonna be quite further along or more advanced than they would have been doing in the current world. And so I I think it's an interesting debate because we all get a little bit scared of like the new thing and change. But throughout history, I think we've realized that we're not gonna make this thing disappear. It's not going away now that we have it. So, what are the right, first of all, regulations and controls that we can put in place at like governmental levels to make sure we're protecting ourselves and protecting people from the bad side of it? But then, second of all, how do we incorporate that into our education system so that we are preparing our children for the reality that is gen AI in everything? It's gonna be in business, it's gonna be in healthcare, it's obviously gonna be in education. You guys have both already attended sessions about the topic.
SPEAKER_03:So it's like, yeah, I would add into that protecting the environment. Like, I think you have that as one of the ones, and that's the one thing I would say on this whole conversation that is my biggest con is that these major data centers and all the water that is being taken to cool these data centers is a problem.
SPEAKER_01:And the amount of energy that's required is gonna be massive. Right. There are discussions, just to play devil's advocate for a second. There are discussions about using Gen AI to come up with different ways to mitigate climate change. And so there's been interesting learnings through that. So, I mean, that is the flip side, but I agree. Like, I have in the meantime though, like while we're draining that resource, we need to have forward thinking on if it's and then and then our current administration is taking away funding and tax breaks and things like that for solar energy and wind. And like we need all of these green sources, you know, for energy. And if we're defunding or disincentivizing companies from investing in that space, we're just digging ourselves into a deeper hole. It's the head in the sand metaphor. It's like we can't just keep ignoring this problem. This is a real problem. Yeah. That's a story, that's a story for everybody.
SPEAKER_03:No, I think today's a great day for that because I think that that is one of the like things that I saw of what are we leaving for the latter generation? Like, while like and it's the same thing, like the only thing that made me think of that was like the industrial revolution. Like, while that was like a major advancement, what did it do to our natural resources? You know, so it's the same thing for like our future um generations of um children who we all need to have more children because like you're gonna make us populate this land with these kids. Like, shouldn't we leave them something to like actually live on? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:It's just that was the throwback to uh customs chad for those of you that didn't listen last week. Amazing. Well, I know we're getting close on time. Um, I love I love that this conversation took a turn towards education. I know last week we talked a lot about politics, so it's nice to kind of take a different angle this week. Any um confessionals? Anything that that stood out to the two of you? Nothing? Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00:No, I was gonna say I'm it's it's funny because I feel this is kind of like a brief little pity party because I feel like always these new things come and then they look to educators. Like, well, what are you gonna do about it? Like it's my now it's my responsibility to teach these kids how to get like get the fuck out of here. I'm so sick of being responsible for society's downfall, but like, you know, you don't want to pay me. You don't want to, you know, make sure that my class sizes are small. You will don't want, you know, you don't want to make sure that education has all the technology. Like, um, you know, my my school is bit district as uh it's an affluent dis district, it's huge, and we're not even one-to-one on uh devices. Um for you know what I'm saying? It's like we don't have devices.
SPEAKER_03:I think you're better off.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, we're not.
SPEAKER_03:I because like you see one-to-one started in our district in in Virginia, and I honestly think um a very nice library media center and like a very innovative like learning lab is way more effective. Well, I mean, I'm only speaking for like high school because kids have cell phones. I mean, and I know there's like certain things with the cell phone band and everything, but like uh I I think the Chromebooks are trash. I honestly do. I think that was a waste of money. And what they did was they took from the arts and they took from theater programs and they took from all these other like the humanities to invest in technology that they're not even teaching appropriately to our kids.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, my district has two unified arts periods. Like our kids have two unified arts periods. Like some kids do both band and choir, and my district has a pretty robust music and art department.
SPEAKER_03:To do it because you don't have one-to-one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, maybe. I just I just feel like we're saying there was this movement with technology, and we were like, what are we gonna do? And now we have to teach utilizing technology, but then not every kid has access to a device. So then I have students who come who don't have their own device, but I'm supposed to teach them how to use a computer and responsible research and all this kind of stuff, and not everybody in the room. Like, that's just my thing is like if I want equity, like everybody should have access to a device. There's certain programs that it's it's kind of there's more to it than just like I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:It's just it's no, I hear I hear what I hear what you're saying. I think, I think, you know, obviously grass is always greener. I just think like my my big thing is like the screens and the eyesight, like we talked about Brielle, like had to get glasses, and I'm like, well, it's cheaper than an IEP, you know what I mean? Like because what we learned is that like she can't read off of those little computer screens, right? And so, like, I just wonder like if we had really great like MacBooks or computer screens or desktops that the students could really navigate all these skills on, how deep their learning would go as opposed to the surface level learning on like a Chromebook. That's all. And that's I would die on that hill. That's just my philosophy. But I I was gonna go along the same lines of like stuff with my aha. It reminded me of my uh first like experience with my teen teacher, who he was telling me how he um when he graduated college in I want to say the 70s or 80s, he graduated with a poly sci degree and he like had his little taste and went to his dad, who I think was a therapist and was like, I can't do politics. This is destroying me. I want to be a teacher. And his dad was like, if you think that teaching isn't politics, you're out of your goddamn mind. Yep. I'm like, that's what this conversation is reminding me of. Cause like in that forum that we had, there was also a woman who spoke about how she helps with career transitions for college students going out into the career force and how she's getting resumes sent back to her for college students using AI on their resumes. And so it's like, well, who's supposed to teach them how to write a to our resume? Educators again, you know. So at every level, the educator is responsible for teaching these kids how to like show up in society. And there's systems that are like roadblocks for us to be able to do it, whether it be one technology, whether it be time, whether it be the statewide tests, what class size, there's all these different things that politicians are not considering. They're asking educators to, you know, come and do their work, which is why why we're seeing a massive um why the recidivism rate of of teachers is just is not they're not coming back.
SPEAKER_01:You guys never cease to keep me hopeful. We're not coming back.
SPEAKER_00:We're not coming back.
SPEAKER_01:I was at, I know I was uh I was at a workout class the other day, and my instructor was like um something about my former middle school teacher self or something, and I was like, oh shit, man. Or just drop it like flies. Drop flies. Right. Well, just another upbeat, encouraging episode of you can call me Karen. Thank you for listening. For those that are excited to be uplifted again next week, please join the people.
SPEAKER_03:We're like the Daria podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Love that with the ball goes fire and she sticks it out.
SPEAKER_01:It's my favorite. Does anybody understand this reference besides us? I hope so. I hope so. Okay, if you miss us between now and our next episode, please drop us a comment on Instagram at you can call me Karen underscore pod on YouTube and on TikTok at you can call me Karen. Like, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.
SPEAKER_04:And a box, and a green one, and a battle box, and a blue one, and a box, and a yellow one, and they're all made out of chicky tacky, and they all look just the same.
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