Goodbye Earl, Hello Outrage

Summary

This week we delve into the journey of The Chicks (formerly known as the Dixie Chicks), exploring their rise to fame, the impact of cancel culture, and their bold political statements during a tumultuous time in American history. We reflect on personal memories tied to the band's music, discuss the societal implications of these experiences, and celebrate the resilience and talent of female artists in the music industry.

Keywords

The Chicks, Dixie Chicks, cancel culture, music history, 9/11, feminism, country music, female artists, pop culture, societal impact

References

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-chicks-vs-the-iraq-war/id1380008439?i=1000519840611

https://www.tiktok.com/@terryandkaniyia/video/7556412633264540942

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_comments_on_George_W._Bush

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicks_discography

Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!

As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. Continuing on our millennial theme, we are talking about the chicks this week, their rise to massive fame, their fall from grace, and their continued ability to break down genre walls and appeal to the masses. We also hear an absolutely ridiculous and controversial Karen story from Manny this week. So please be prepared to share your opinions with us on social media. I personally know where Steph and I stand, so let's hear where you all stand. And lastly, we wrap up with all the good feels that the chicks and other female artists of that era deliver. So please join us now down memory lane. As you heard last week, we are going to be spending our time in the 90s and early 2000s. So this week we're talking about the chicks, or the artists formerly known as the Dixie Chicks for our listeners who are not up to speed. But before we do that, you know we gotta know from my lovely co-hosts who are you calling, Karen. So Manny, Steph, say hello and let's hear your Karen's of the week. Sorry, I jumped the gun a little bit. I was like, yay!

SPEAKER_06 2:11

Yep!

SPEAKER_01 2:12

I missed it completely.

Karen Of The Week: TSA Line Chaos

SPEAKER_04 2:14

I was in the zone. I was locked in. I know, because that's what happens when we listen to the Dixie chicks. We get locked in. It's so exciting. But hello, I'm Manny. Hey Manny. Perfect. That's what I live for these days, just to make her life a living hell. Just wait till you guys get teenagers. It's rough in these streets. Do you know that song by um uh okay? So yesterday, we're sorry to derail this whole intro, but this is important, and I have to talk to you guys about it. Speaking of 90s, so yesterday we're laying down in the living room, like just like kicking it or whatever, and she starts singing that song, and I'm like, and I'm like, and she's like, oh, she goes, Oh, you just ruined that song for me. I go, I literally, you guys, I literally got on top of her and started wrestling. I was like, you ruined that song for me.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Because that's do you know that there's a remake out?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

No, there's a remake, I'm not tracking what song we're talking about right now. Oh god.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Shine. Shine. So there's a remake out called Shine, and Glorilla does a verse on it or something with another artist. No, and so I'm sick of it. And so, yeah, and so then I was like, Brielle, I was so I had to like play it for her.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Did you play the real song for her? So she didn't play.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

She didn't realize that that was like a 90s song.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Oh kids these days are making things.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Karen, you don't realize that it's a 90s song either.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Kids these days, man. Can't take them anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

I played it for her, but it was so funny because like I couldn't figure out like what the name of the song was, right? So I had to like do a little digging. And then in the comments, it said the same thing that I said. It was like, it was so hard for me to find this song.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

All I all I could type in was swing.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

Oh no, and she's back.

SPEAKER_06 5:00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

That is a sweating. Oh my god, that is so great. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Did I tell you guys that I watched the Hulu documentary of Sha about Shine? No, and it was so good. And it had the talked about this before. I feel like we talked about this too. I think you did. I think you did, you're right. And and it had the the guy who did the Shiladel and um and he was like, he's kind of old now, and it he did it like a cappella, and he sounded amazing. Oh he's a politician, a Belize. Shine is Belize, yeah, from Belize. Wow. Yeah, you need to watch that. It's on Hulu. It was very good.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Yeah, because it does it relate to kind of bad boy records?

SPEAKER_05 5:49

It does. Like you we actually yeah, watch it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

Sorry. That was took a whole nother route. My bad. I'm Manny.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Um, I gotta get us back on track here. So, um, while that was fascinating, I would love to know who you calling Karen this week.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

I have a good Karen story. Um, over the holidays, we go to see Steve's family. Um, his parents live in Richmond, Virginia, and his siblings and and uh our family go there, and so there's a total of four grandkids there, three siblings and their spouses, and we always go after Christmas, and um, his mom makes a Christmas dinner, blah blah blah. So we're there for like four days, and when on the way back, we get to the airport, and we have TSA Precheck, so we get over to the security line, and the longest line happens to be TSA Precheck, and we both kind of like tilted our heads, but we saw the sign that it that's the line for us, so we got in it. We didn't say anything out loud, like I think we both thought to ourselves, oh, this line's kind of long. And then, as so we're towards the end of the line, because we just got there, and then people start coming up and having the same like thoughts. They're like, Oh, this is this the pre-check thing, and then they're like, Wow, this is long, and like about three or four families came up, did the exact same thing. They kind of stepped in front of us, then turned back, like, are you guys pre-checked? And we're like, We're all pre-check, and so they're like, Oh my god. And so they all get at the end of the line. And I turn to see, I'm like, I guess the line is pretty long because everybody keeps doing the same thing. Well, here comes Karen. Uh oh. Um Karen lady walks up right up against the sign in front of this long line of people, and she's like, it she looks like she's about to just jump in line in front of everybody, and then she's like, Is this pre-check? And we're like, Yeah, and it you know, go with the back. And she was like, Oh, and she was like, Well, I guess I'm just gonna go in the regular line then because I don't want to stand in this line. And I was like, Girl, this is pre-check, like it's gonna work out, it always does, you know. But I was like, So she goes, but she was she just like over it, so she goes, and the line for non-precheck did look way shorter, and so I turned to Steve and I was like, I hope this goes badly for her. And I decided to just cast a spell on the Karen, I cast a spell on her. I did, um, and I decided to make it my I just watched what happened for her because I was intrigued. So we're again we're pretty pretty far back, and I would say two minutes later, the line starts moving more quickly because security realizes that this pre-check line is getting long, so they opened another station because that's what they do for us pre-check people. So now you start hearing them shouting pre-check over here, and so the line is split splitting off. Pre-check people know what they're doing, so they hand them their stuff, it you know, and we get up to where I can now see the lady, and she's kind of far back, and their line isn't moving really at all anymore because they're taking care of our line because we're pre-check, and so if you see her like swaying and like leaning and stuff, and I was like here, and so I was just thinking to myself, like, that's what you get, like you she couldn't wait, and now it's better over here, and so I thought it would be over then, but it wasn't. This I start to see I hand I we go through and I see her going, excuse me, excuse me, and cutting up in front of the regular like Czech people and saying, like, excuse me, I I and basically I'm pre-Check, I'm in the wrong line. And she gets up to the front where pre-check is, and I was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna be so mad if she just cuts over and gets in and then comes like right behind us, right? And I don't I missed the exchange because I had to like handle what we were doing, and I look up and I see her heading back to the back of the pre-check line because I think someone must have said, like, you're not gonna just slide over here and then go next because silly cell stood in the wrong line, and so yeah, that's why reading is fundamental. Reading is fundamental. Don't like have your burning pass says pre-check, you stand in the pre-check line, and guess what? It does go a little bit faster. You don't go over in the wrong line and then shimmy your way through, and then think that you're gonna be next, and all because she didn't feel it, it wasn't even like she just didn't feel like she deserved to have to wait. She should have to wait, right? She should have to wait. So I was starting to get fired up, and like after we were through, um, I was walking and I saw her at one of the coffee places, and I was like, You weren't even in a hurry. That's when it like it started to burn me up. She was standing in line for coffee, and so then I was like, I need to see where I want, I need to know what time her flight departs. I have to know. Because like what's we are locked in now. I was locked in, and so we like casually walked down. Her flight left 20 minutes after ours. And don't forget, we have a three-year-old and a stroller, and we weren't panicked, like we saw the line was long, but you know, everything was fine.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Anyway, airports turn everyone into Karen's.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

I feel like, yeah, they are just I was so happy that it didn't really work out for her.

Fictional Karen Debate: Sister Mary Clarence

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, I feel like a lot of times those people do find their way, and it always pisses me off because it just reinforces their bad behavior. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:17

I think the real Karen here is um the United States governments. And I will tell you why.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

I'm ready to hear this.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

Because you only have to pay$80 or whatnot for a pre-check, just so you don't have to take off your shoes and do the regular check. And now everyone's which regular check? You don't have to take your shoes off anymore. You don't?

unknown 12:46

No.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, I was gonna say I thought that they were now.

SPEAKER_04 12:49

Oh, that was music. I haven't I haven't flown in a long time. Okay, so yeah, so now everybody's on to it, and now it's just creating more like chaos at the and then what do they do? They add a whole nother thing that you have to pay for that's like one tier above for clear.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

It's like clear is a private company, which that I hate. Like, I don't like don't I don't know. I I feel like if we're setting up sorry, I don't know clear, I never used it, I'm not bougie. Yeah, it's it's a private company, so they have some contract with the government to background check people and and so they don't get called even before TSA prejack. Yeah, and but it's also like yeah, you pay more money, it's just another way for the that's what I'm for a company and for our government to make money. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Like it's that they're the real corporate here, core culprits here, yeah. Because they're creating these more, like just like they're creating this anxiety when really it's like why can't we just open all the lanes up and just get everybody moving? And that brings us to 9-11 and the Dixie Chicks, perfect, perfect that way.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Except I didn't get my Karen story, but we could go off of Brielle and that'd be fine.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Wait, do you have a Karen story, Manny? It's fine. I don't need to share it. We're already 13 minutes into the episode. Give us the cliff notes. Come on. Sorry. Okay, well, no, it don't anybody apologize. Nobody's fault. Um, mine will be quick. I have a fictional Karen in the spirit of the 90s, and this one is very tough for me, but when I go and I look back and I think about it, it really is Karen behavior, especially what I know about being an educator. So my Karen of the Week is so excited, Sister Mary Clarence.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

I don't know, I don't know, uh-uh, I don't know y'all's races. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

And I have to tell you why, and this is justice, this is justice for Rita's mom. Why did Sister Mary Clarence go up to her job and tell her about Rita not um not wanting Rita to participate in this field trip? I feel like if a teacher came up to me and told me what I needed to do for my kid at my job, I'd be really pissed off. And I would find that to be entitled behavior. And that's exactly what Sister Mary Clarence did when she wanted Rita to come on the field trip to sing. And sister Mary Clarence.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

I did not except first of all, first of all, first of all, okay, a couple things. Steph and I do not agree.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Sister Mary and your opinion didn't go there asking for her to for a field trip. She wanted to make sure her mom knew that she quit the choir. So she just said, I just wanted you to know that she quit the choir. And is there any way you could convince her to come back?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, because I am a loving, caring educator.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

I don't think that's how a conversation. That is how the conversation goes. Roll the clips.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

I will.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

I will I will.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

I have researched. I'll find it. I've seen this movie a thousand times. I will send it in the group chat. A thousand times she's like, because I've not seen any other movie.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

She said read it quit the choir, and I wanted to know if you could think about it.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

That wasn't the intent. The intent was to say you're a bad mom. And no.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

We are not watching the same movie. No.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

As it turns out in all that conversation happened at the barber shop, right? At the hair salon? It was at her house. She was in hair house. Oh, yeah. She was working. She was working, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

She came to be like, uh I assume you know that your daughter is wildly talented, as do I, and I care about her. And I'm assuming you, as your her mother, care about her as well and would like her to keep participating in the choir. And that's when sister. But the mom didn't ask for all that. She didn't find out her mom's bitch. Her mom didn't. She didn't know she was a bitch until she went then.

SPEAKER_04 17:40

I'm just saying, we didn't ask for all that.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

And she's hear what you're saying. Steph, stay strong with me. No, no. Manny is wrong.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

I know what you guys are saying. I love the movie. I don't want to ruin it for anybody, but I'm just saying, in today's society, Steph, would you ever do that to a parent? As an educator? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

I wouldn't show up at their house, but um. Exactly. It was a different time then. It was a different time.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

There wasn't a different Zelda's messaging.

SPEAKER_05 18:18

Yeah. And it wasn't like checking their work. It was like it was a bit and it was a very personal touch to, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

They needed to show the two characters in the same space. It would not have been effective over the phone.

SPEAKER_05 18:36

And I feel like, yes, and I'm a pick-up-the-phone person. So like if a student, is there something going on? I've had uh tough conversations, like, hey, I just want to let you know, like, your child cheated on this math test. And you know, that's not an easy. Oh, I know, not taking an elective. I know, I know, and we but I was saying, I also had to share, you know, I'm just noticing a change in his per his behaviors. He's getting involved with kids that he's you know, like I had to have it was more it was an example of a change and a shift in his behaviors and stuff. And I and I didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

I just felt like Whoopi was going there to like confront the mom.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

No, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

It wasn't about Rita. No, I just kind of felt that way.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

You're so wrong.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

I'm happy to die on that sword. Listeners, tell us what you think.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Uh they're gonna agree with Steph and I because they've seen the movie. Wow. The one movie I've seen.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

That is so fresh.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I have spent all of my movie watching time watching Sister Egg 2.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

What's your mom's name again? Um don't point proven.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Proven the point. Mommy, that's what she calls her. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

I can only I can't why.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

She calls her mommy. I'm just saying. I remember that mommy. She does call her mommy. She's a 16-year-old, 17-year-old girl calling her mom mommy, and I it stuck with me. Anyways, that was um, I guess, your Karen's of the week. It was your Karen and not Karen of the week. And now they're gonna agree with me. All right, I'm going to segue us now. All right.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Luck. You should have stopped me at and then it's the segue into 9-11. It's true.

SPEAKER_05 20:49

You just heard our Karen stories, but we can't be the only ones. If you've had a Karen or Chad encounter or confessional, you've been a Karen yourself. We'd love to hear from you. Wherever you listen, click on the link in our show notes and text us your Karen stories.

Why The Chicks Matter To Millennials

SPEAKER_01 21:08

All right. So, ladies, I have a bit of background today because one of the things that um started my absolute love of podcast truly was years ago, Manny, you suggested that I listen to an episode of You're Wrong About about the chicks or the Dixie Chicks, as they were formerly known. Um, and it was a great episode, uh, which I will link. It was an episode that explored the cancellation of the chicks after um their 2003 blow up where Natalie Maines made an anti war comment um about George W. ish. Um, and the media went crazy over her comment. The discussion on that pod specific. Was debating whether they were actually canceled or not because their next album was really successful. They had huge tours after that. Um and so it was a really interesting debate. And then this comes full circle when recently, Manny, you shared, I think it was you, shared um an Instagram reel of this couple, and I can't remember their names. I'll find it and I'll link it. Yeah, I referenced them last week too. Yeah, they're, I mean, their videos are fantastic. So we'll find it and we'll link it. But um, they their shtick is like listening to like I I would say white music from the 90s and 2000s that like totally bangs and it what and it watches their reaction as they're listening to it for the first time. And so the video specifically that I'm talking about was the one where they listened to Goodbye Earl from the chicks. And for those that haven't listened, please pause, go find that song, listen to it, and then come back because it's great. Um, and they were absolutely like rocking out to this song. They they were reading the lyrics and like dying over as this story progressed than when they realized that these ladies are about to kill the one, the one's husband, their minds were blown.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

Anyway, oh, right. Stephanie was a virgin to that as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah, I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, if I'm not mistaken, that may have been the first time you heard it too. Is that true?

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Yeah, yeah, I don't know how I missed that song, but it was. But so I was following, I was reacting the same way the kid the young people in the video were.

Rise To Fame: Wide Open Spaces To Fly

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I love that. Oh, I wish I would have gotten to react to it the first time like that as well. But anyways, naturally, we have to do an episode about the chicks. And if you're a millennial like us, then I'm guessing the soundtrack to some of your most formative years also includes a few chick songs. So things like wide open spaces, landslide, goodbye, Earl, although not you stuff, um, Cowboy Take Me Away. Oh my gosh, there's so many. Um, so yeah, I want to dive in a little bit. We will cover a little bit on cancel culture, but then just also about the chicks in the late 90s and early 2000s and what we were all doing during that time. Um okay, so background on the chicks themselves. Um, it wasn't until their fourth album, actually, that was titled Wide Open Spaces. Um, it was released in January of '98 that they shot to the top of the charts. So before that, they had had three albums that were, I think, popular in the more like grassroots country environment, but not on mainstream radio or on any of the charts until that point. Um, wide open spaces for those that are familiar include the album title uh single wide open spaces, as well as There's Your Trouble, which I think Steph was attempting to sing at the start of this.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

And I'm saying go ahead and sing it because we won't get fined for this because nobody knows what's going on.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

But listen, it was beautiful, and I'm not doing it again because you just laughed and it was excellent.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I laughed because I had no idea. I don't even think you said words. It was sort of a melody. Yeah, I love that song.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I'm not singing it. You made it off.

London 2003: The Comment Heard Worldwide

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Um I'll keep going. After wide open spaces, they released Fly, which included Ready to Run, Cowboy Take Me Away, and The Lovely Goodbye Earl. Um, this was the first album they had that hit the number one, number one spot on the US charts, not just the country charts. So it really opened them up to like mainstream pop as well. And then the next album titled Home also hit number one on the overall charts. And this is the album that they were touring for when this infamous incident happened in London. So for those that are not familiar, this was March 10th, 2003. Um, and this was a few days before George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq in like the post-9-11 space. So this was the first stop of the chicks top of the world tour. They again, they were in London, so they were overseas experiencing what the world was saying about America as we were about to invade Iraq. They were about to cover to perform the cover of the song Travelin' Soldier, by the way. Amazing song.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

Another good song.

Backlash, Radio Bans, And Early Cancel Culture

Not Ready To Make Nice And The Grammys

SPEAKER_01 26:54

It like it makes me cry every time I cry. Um, so Natalie Maines was speaking. She's the lead singer of the band. She said, uh, just so you know, we're on the good side with y'all. We do not want this war, this violence, and we're ashamed that the president of the United States is from Texas. That is a direct quote. Immediately after that, Emily Strayer, one of her bandmates, said, Um, but you know we're behind the troops 100%. And that's what was said. Those are all of the words, a direct quote. Um, the concert proceeded, the media was there because this was the first stop on their big tour. And after this day, it fueled like a massive cancel campaign against the chicks and primarily from right-wing and conservative country music supporters. And I do think it's important shocked about that. I know. Normally they would be so open to anti-war rhetoric. I do think, though, it is important to remember where we were in history, right? So um September 11th, 2001, the World Trade Towers came down. There was a lot of um um, you know, pro-American uh rhetoric at this time. There was a bunch of country songs leading up to this moment, like uh Toby Keith's Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue, The Angry American. Uh, there was Daryl Worley's Have You Forgotten, and there was a few about like a similar title, if you will. Anyways, this was all leading up to that time, right? So everyone was very pro-American, um almost pro-war to sound a little bit um, I don't know. It was very much that feeling, that sentiment. And so nationalist, thank you. That is the word I was searching for. Um, and so the statement by the chicks being a very popular country band and happening to be out of the country while making this statement was a really big contrast to what the rest of particularly the country music space was saying, but even a lot of the country at the time. Um and so yeah, the media like latched on to this and lit them up. There were a ton of radio stations that stopped playing their music. There was um a documentary that was done a, I think a year later, about the band. And I I'm gonna get the stats wrong. NBC or CBS like refused to play all of the promotion videos associated with it. So there was a very um like active campaign to cancel them, which was really one of the first incidents of the um cancel culture in the modern era where we have internet and the ability to really influence these things. All of that said, uh, fast forward to 2006, which um was their taking the long way album, it did not perform as well in terms of sales as as anticipated, but it still topped the charts. It won five Grammys, including Album of the Year. They, yeah, they crushed it. They, you know, they performed at the Grammys. Um, and then they took a hiatus after the Grammys for I think six years until 2013. Um, and then in 2020, that is when they changed their names from the Dixie Chicks to the Chicks. So I wanted to kind of decouple the changing of the name from this um, you know, anti-war statement that they made because sometimes those things can get commingled. But I guess first off, I know that's a lot of information. They are a very interesting story considering that their audience was largely, you know, country music fans, um, quite conservative in many cases. And so this statement was really bold for them to make, particularly at the moment in time that they made it. And so I'm curious what are your reactions? Do you remember this happening? Do you remember them being canceled? What were your thoughts about the cancellation? Let me start there.

SPEAKER_05 31:20

Um, yeah, I remember this a lot and a lot well, and I feel like it, you know, because at that point, you know, 2003, the following year was my first time voting, and 2004 was my first time voting in a presidential election. And so, um, and being in college, and I'm starting to become a little bit more politically aware and and socially aware, and just starting to form my opinions. Um, here hearing a country group artist say, you know, that they were against the war was like, oh, I don't care what kind of music you play, girl. I I I'm feeling you. Like I was like, I just was like, I just thought that was cool. And um, yeah, that's it. I just like I do I vividly remember.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Nanny, any early reactions from you?

Country, Nationalism, And Double Standards

SPEAKER_04 32:23

Um, I really I I remember I remember it's hard though because I can't remember, like I don't know what my memory is like from re-watching it or what I actually watched live because I'm that old now. Um but I I have a visual of them being on stage and this happening. Um and then what was the question?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Just what like what was your reaction to that happening? Um, you know, where were you in life? What what were you feeling?

SPEAKER_04 32:58

I love absolutely loved the Dixie Chicks, and I think that it is maybe um, I don't know, as you were talking, I was thinking a couple of things. I was thinking a lot of things. Um and I can't wait to like go deeper into this, but like um, I think one she I feel like they were positioned in a way that Taylor Swift was positioned before she took off uh fandom, where like I think that they knew that more than conservatives were listening to her music because their music, because they they uh when when when we bring up the chicks, I mean people of all demographics love like in those comments on Instagram of those two um couple that couple watching the playback, like that's ever like it's a plethora of people who are like invested in their music. So I wonder what the music industry knew about their trajectory um and what they were trying to do, and if uh uh what where they were trying to like um have them go as musical artists, and then when that comment was made, how much they kind of tampered with it to um make them. I don't know. I just feel I I'm I'm feeling kind of cynical about that.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

Um because can I just chime into that because you were when you're talking about their trajectory, and when you know, after this incident, Karen, you said their following album didn't perform as well like sales-wise, but still got Grammys. And Grammy is not just country, it's you know, right, everyone, and it you and I don't remember the 2006 Grammys, but I could imagine that there was some sort of like stick it to the man kind of a thing that we're gonna celebrate the chicks next album.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Well, and I'm glad that you raised that because Natalie Maines, I feel like I would want to be her best friend. He um, so this album normally for fans or artists that find themselves in a pickle would be an apology album. And this was the opposite. Their number one song, and the one that they performed at the Grammys was not ready to make nice.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

And it's like it's I'll read some of the lyrics. It's I'm not ready to make nice, I'm not ready to back down, I'm still mad as hell, and I don't have time to go round and round and round. They were like, I am not double to say I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. I am, I didn't say anything wrong. She she had said multiple times in America, we have freedom of speech, and I should be allowed to voice my opinions, which were not aggressive to anybody or accusatory. It was literally just she was embarrassed that she's from the same state as the president who is about to launch a major invasion on a country that, as we later learned, did not have what he said they had weapons of mass destruction.

SPEAKER_05 36:20

So yeah, I think that's um sorry if that's weird what you were saying, Manie, but I felt like you were Yeah, no, that just added a little bit more flavor to it.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

I was also gonna say um that it was um my my when we're talking about like our personal reactions of it, I feel like this came shortly after the cancellation of Lauren Hill. And I just wanted to go like Google it and get this. Um, a caller to the Howard Stern show claimed Lauren Hill of the Fuji's made anti-white statements during MTV movie uh interview to the effect of proclaiming she'd rather see her child starve than have a white kid buy her album in 1996. I didn't realize that. That's what just came up in a quick Google search. So that was in '96. I don't know. I I I I I don't know. I don't I don't know if those dates are right. That was just like a quick Google search, but um it I think that they were very close in time frame, and I think for me, I was just heartbroken by like the way that these two of my like favorite female artist group or whatever were being covered by the media by things that they said, and I just remember being like, What, why, like, what does this mean? You know, like I I don't know, and and then contrast that to like more what we'll get into next week with like how the cancellation of men and not playing their songs and their music and stuff, it just it feels also rotten, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

And I think you made a parallel there, Manny.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

I shouldn't say I think you made a parallel about um Taylor Swift, and I hadn't made that connection before, but that is a really good comparison. Uh the di the main difference being that Taylor Swift started speaking her mind on um, you know, managing her own um catalog and having ownership of her music and um politics. She started speaking recently, not not too recently, I guess, probably for almost a decade now about politics. That um came after, I believe, her shift, her transition from country music to pop. And her fame has, you know, grown and grown and grown over the course of her career. So I th you know one possible theory here could be the chicks staying in country music um has to a certain degree limited their audience. Like I I know we've talked about this. I'm not a fan of country music, and it's nothing political, it's literally just my preference and my taste. Um, and the chicks came through, like I was working at Lone Star Steakhouse and Saloon, and they were, you know, a Texas-styled company, and they had they played country music, and so there was a moment there in like the in like 2000 to 2002 where I got into whatever mainstream country music was, and and the chicks were right up in there for me. Um, and so I heard them and I loved them and I listened to all of their albums, but I think that was definitely the exception for me.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

And I think mainstream country music had a moment between 2000 and 2003. Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 39:59

I wonder like earlier than that for me, because like I liked Shania Twain. Oh, yeah, Shania, yeah, Faith Hill and it didn't have a moment. Um early Carrie Underwood, you know, like Carrie Underwood was after. But I'm just saying there's like there was like a pop call pop country that I like I liked.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Yeah, yeah, country music re had a bigger reach, I feel like, than it does now. And it might have been in the early 90s starting to like like it started with Shania, right? But like I think that it really like made its way to the radio, I want to say, um, more than just country stations in I I from what I remember, I I I don't know, I I could be wrong about that, but I listened to a lot of country music between those.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because uh now I'm wondering if the chicks had found themselves at a slightly different point in time, would this cancellation fully cancel?

SPEAKER_04 41:08

No, their voice their voices are I when you were talking about traveling soldier, that line like ah cry, never gonna hold the hand of another guy. Like that rift is everything. It's everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

And by the way, that's a cover. Did you know that? No, I didn't. I um I didn't look up who sang it originally, but yeah, when I was reading on like their Wikipedia page, it says their cover of Traveling and Soldier. So I don't know who did it first, but it couldn't have been better than that.

Patriarchy, Power, And Who Gets Canceled

SPEAKER_05 41:44

Just I love how um The Chicks is like I'm gonna say this out loud, and I'm sure people are gonna be like, what the F. But their cover of Landslide was my exposure to that song. Um I know that's terrible because Stevie Nicks is a queen. I think that's pretty typical. Well, but I love that song, like, and and it made me listen to the original, and I ended up doing choreographing a dance to um another cover of it because it's just like one of my favorite songs. Like, but I guess I say that to say the chicks can really cover a song, like it's it's beautiful, just so um tender and smooth and rich.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

Like, there's not there's not a comparable sound to also their voices, which they go into in the wrong you're wrong about pretty in-depth, I think. They are not in depth, but they at least like cover it better than whatever we're trying to do right now.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

Also, I feel like I keep seeing I've been seeing a lot of um like threads and memes, and it's like the question is who are some white people that black people don't play about? And I feel like the chicks need to be added to that list.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

I think like oh uh who are the other ones? I'm dying to know.

SPEAKER_05 43:12

Oh man, um Betty White. Betty White is one. I can't remember some of the other ones, but that one's a popular one. Yeah, it's leading. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

There's like a list of yeah, it's funny. It's good. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

I do like that. We'll need to explore that in a little more detail. Um, yeah, and I think, you know, the other thing is I was reading through the chain of events surrounding the chicks is um this one, I like when they were canceled, it kind of I kind of I feel like it kind of went over my head because probably because I wasn't watching or following um conservative or right wing media at That time. And so I didn't, I didn't realize how pervasive this like cancellation of the the chicks was. Um, the things that I did get were uh the terrible commentary about like Natalie Maines being fat and stuff like that, like or women need to like women singers need to sing and not speak, and just like terrible commentary like that that was so common in that era of like you you mean nothing unless you sit down and shut up and you're pretty. And so I I I there was one comedian, one of those like um Jeff Foxworthy, one of those comedians that made a comment generous calling him a comedian. I mean, like Jeff Foxworthy was like I know, but he's not funny. Okay, well, that's a conversation for another day. Um, but one of his they did that group, you know, of like the Jeff Foxworthy country guys who are comedians, and one of those guys, uh and I'm I'm sorry, I'm totally blanking on all of their names right now, but it was like he was like a you know, a heavy set, his shtick was like um very blue-collar, very like hillbilly, like he just like leaned into that mold, and he was the one who was making comments about Natalie Maines being fat, which was just appalling. Like that is, I mean, first of all, she's not right, like let's just say that outright. And what does anything about her body have to do with her beautiful voice and talent and her personal opinion? And so they just like raped her over the coals, you know, of like they attacked her character, they attacked her um, you know, physical appearance, um, her intellect. She was she had to hire all these like personal bodyguards and security and have her house under security 24-7 in order to like feel safe. She has children, you know, like there was just so many implications by one statement that was made that was by all means very benign. Literally, she didn't say the president's name and widely held.

SPEAKER_05 46:30

Like many people agreed with what she said. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah, it was just so sad. And I think that I mean, again, this goes back to the patriarchy, but I think if if a male had said it, it would have sparked a debate. And I know that's a male did say it.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

A male did say it. Kanye said George Bush does not like if a white country musician had said. Well, I'm just saying we do have a contemporary statement being made live on TV that sparked controversy, but didn't cancel it, like it didn't, you know, and and and I'm also thinking here about like the R definition of criminality in this country and um and how the gatekeeping of criminality, of like how many chances actual criminal behavior gets given to men before they get canceled as opposed to women. And that is just ridiculous to me that like we have this evidence of again, we'll get into it next week, but like even um like like with uh well, we'll just say it with like P. Diddy and like actually getting charged with like having possession of guns and stuff like that, and like how many opportunity how many times the charges are actually made, and yet the industry will still play their music on the radio station.

Personal Memories, Grief, And Friendship

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Chris Brown, we saw Chris Brown literally beat the shit out of Rihanna, and his music still gets played, he gets still gets to book um stadiums, sold out like arenas, you know, and like the first words out of people's mouth, if you bring that up, are like, well, she hit him too. Like there's immediately jumping to his defense.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

It's like what argument is that it just the juxtaposition of actual literal criminal behavioral versus behavior versus our nationalist belief that we are superior to other countries is wild to me. It's yeah, I can't that's like where we are, I think, now when we like look back at these moments in history of like, what were we actually agreeing to with the United States government when we like beyond like the stuff with the other country that we know they didn't have map weapons of mass destruction, what psychologically were we agreeing to? What contract were we agreeing to when we went to war with these other countries that says we are superior to other people? And it's all these little subtle things that we we we do and we go along with that we don't protest that make the the that convince us that these nonviolent behaviors or these nonviolent beliefs are actually okay when really they're like completely dangerous and like brainwashing and just cause so much harm. They distract us from the real actual like criminality that's happening in front of us.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Right. Uh well it's super interesting that you went there because just pause for a moment because I'm pulling up something that I think Steph, you just sent. Um, from threads, it said low-rise genes, starvation skinny, and an unconstitutional war for oil. Early 2000s nostalgia is out of control. And like for our listeners, we literally just you know went into Venezuela and stole their president. And um, yeah, it's kind of a it's it's wild parallels. I think there's almost something. This is gonna sound so messed up, but um Stockholm Syndrome, but there's almost something comforting about the fact that like actually what's happening today is not that crazy because it's happened before.

SPEAKER_05 50:36

Like sometimes I feel very doomsday about the current leader though, being kidnapped.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Minus the leader being kidnapped, but it's all just yeah, I mean, what is happening? But then also you reflect on these times where yeah, we just invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9-11 in the name of 9-11, which at the time we all accepted because 9-11? I don't know, like button.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Well, yeah, because we saw, I think it's because we saw the people, there were so many families in New York that were invaded by it, right? Like it was the first time that we were invaded, and so we were vulnerable to that, which makes sense. Um, but in comparison to what we do to other countries, doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't make sense when you think about it. So it's just, you know, I don't know. And I've I think um there was something else there that I was like thinking about with a oh, I was it made me think about Beyonce and her not being nominated as a country artist, um and just how the like conservative this is what makes me not want to listen to country music anymore, is these kind of reactions to women artists making beautiful mu music and the way that uh white conservatives will never um I don't know, just the way that they like monopolize the that genre and have a very specific mold that you have to fit in if you're going to be accepted in that space.

Closing Reflections And Social CTA

SPEAKER_01 52:36

And I think for me with the chicks, the thing that I love so much is that they continue to this day to not accept that. They are they are consistent in the style of music that they play, they are wildly talented, um, and they are consistent in their you know political views and their standpoint, their their point of view, um, and they won't shut up, even though you know the conservative media would love if they did.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

So I think that that's no, they would love for them to speak, they just want it to be about being pro-America.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, those are the only words that are allowed. And so, yeah, I just think um I think they're brilliant for so many reasons. And I I personally love an artist or a band that is more than just their music. And I I know we've talked about like and we will continue to talk about can you separate the artist from the person and can you just appreciate the art? And for whatever reason, for me, I I like I need both. You know, it's really hard. Like listening to R. Kelly now is just totally tainted for me, and that sucks, but that is that's kind of part of who I am, and so the combo of the chicks being like all things to me is so lovely. Like when I think of them, it makes me happy because I feel like they're just they're living it, um, they're being true to who they are, and they're just fucking talented.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

They're so incredibly talented. They uh are there there's something about when you listen to music nowadays of like, you know, last week when we did that little thing at the end and we were looking at all the artists on that top, I mean, I didn't even I didn't even go into some of the other songs from some of the artists on that list, you know. But like when I look back at like the reaction of those kids um listening to Celine Dion, listening to the chicks, um, and then you include in that there was Michael Jackson, there was Whitney, there was all these Mariah Carey, you know, like we just really uh I I am not gonna say I took it for granted. I just didn't realize that that is a once-in-a-lifetime um gift to be able to hear that much talent. Cause like I don't see, I'm not trying to be like an old person, like I want to like really appreciate the youth in their um their musical taste and stuff, but like they're like going back to how we started this episode with Shine, like they can't they can't channel it the way that it was channeled in the 90s, and you know, we have to question why that is, you know, why aren't we able to access that kind of power and talent and gifts anymore? Um I have theories about that, but you know, we don't have time for that on this podcast. But I just think now that I get to look back and reflect on it and reminisce on it, wow, how amazing that those artists shaped our perspective, our lives, um, our formative years. I just I feel so grateful actually.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Hmm. I think we um yeah, I think we end there. I love that. Um before we wrap, any confessionals from the two of you?

SPEAKER_05 56:20

Um I at the beginning, just when you were like reading through the albums that they've released in their song titles, like I did get lots of warm, fuzzy feelings. Um like, and I I feel like when I think about the chicks, I feel like I was like, I thought going into it, I think I I'm not afraid, I'm sorry, I'm kind of mum bumbling over myself, but I know that their political views align with mine, and so I thought maybe I got into the chicks because of their political views, but really I liked their music. They yeah, I did their music bangs, their music bangs. Like when I was reading that list and I was like, oh, ready, ready, ready, ready, ready to run. Like, I'm like, I liked them. Like, period, they're just talented, they made good music that transcended, and because I would I too was not really into country music, but something about their voices and the way that they sing has soul to it and it makes you feel connected. Um, so again, I think that they should absolutely be added to the list of white people that black people just don't play with about. We don't play with music.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

I think we should wrap each episode with that. What'd you say? I'm sorry. I said I think we should wrap each episode with that, like just a white person. There's not many before we get to the end of this.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

It's not a long list. We can't. There's men and them. Okay, fine. Um so I have sort of a sentimental confession. My when I think of the chicks, I think about my freshman and sophomore year high school and um somewhat of my junior year too. I think about uh I used to skip study hall with like some um some of the like older girls in um school. Like they were, I think they were juniors, and I was like a freshman or sophomore or whatever. We would skip study hall and we would go to like this Mexican restaurant for lunch, and we would listen to the chicks um as we as we were driving to the restaurant. And um, I think Kim, you'll have to tell me, were you did you ever skip school with me then? I know definitely Caroline did. And um Caroline passed away um almost almost five years ago now, six years ago now. So I always think of Caroline when I hear the chicks. I always think of wide open spaces. Um uh she just brings me so much comfort when I hear, I just think of her spirit. Um when I hear her music, when I hear that music, I think of her. Um, I think of Tara. And uh we used to love like Goodbye Earl. We watched um what's the oh Thelma and Louise where they go over the clips. So like we always we always have been like tight like that, like fuck the man, you know? And so Goodbye Earl, when that came out, like that was like our thing, like fuck these dudes, you know. Um, so I just get very sentimental when I hear about them. It just makes me think of friendships and it makes me think of leaving um and graduating high school because I used to always substitute wide open spaces where it's like um that part where it's like sh uh I remember listening to this on repeat for seven hours when I was leaving in the backseat of my parents' car, leaving Maryland and going to Ohio State for the first time, getting dropped off at school. I remember listening to wide open spaces on repeat. And there's this part where they're like, she knows the highest stakes, she knows the highest stakes, and I would substitute it for she knows Ohio stakes. Oh my god, I love that. So yeah, I'm very I'm very sentimental about the chicks. They're very sweet.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Yeah, they're very they hold a very sweet spot in my heart for sure. It's so funny how I think I can speak for all of us when I say we are not the biggest country music fans, but we I feel like between the chicks and Shania Twain, I have a lot of memories that are like intertwined with those ladies. And so it's just kind of funny for me to reflect on that. But yeah, anyways, loved chatting about the chicks today. Um, love that we can keep the theme on cancel culture and the patriarchy and all of that, um, but do it in a way that's that brings me much more joy than in the past, and really excited to continue our millennial adventures next week. So please look for us on social media and um comment your favorite chicks' memories, and we'll see you all very soon.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Hey bitches, that's a wrap on another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. If you liked what you heard or didn't, go to our show page and leave a review. Just know we will call you out. And if unlike my two co-hosts, you find yourself scrolling endlessly on TikTok, follow us at you can call me Karen. And if you're still living in the 20th century like a boomer, don't worry. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at you can call me Karen underscore comment. We love you for listening.