Monica Lewinsky. More Than Just a Beret.

Attention listeners!!  This episode is part of Podcastathon 2026 and we are proud to support the non profit organization Groove With Me, a free dance school for girls in East Harlem. Want to learn show your support with us? Visit the link in our show notes to donate. 

Episdode Summary

In 1998, a 24-year-old intern became the punchline of a scandal she didn't write — and we all laughed. In this episode, Manni, Steph, and Karen revisit the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, break down the full timeline, and ask the questions nobody was asking at the time: about power, consent, media manipulation, and the women who got buried under all of it. Had your own Karen or Chad moment this week? Text us your story using the link in our show notes — we want to hear it.

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References

Eminem  - My Name Is

Time Magazine - From an Anonymous Tip to an Impeachment: A Timeline of Key Moments in the Clinton-Lewinski Scandal

Monica Lewinsky: Emerging from the House of Gaslight in the Age of #MeToo

Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!

As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.

Transcript

Charity Spotlight: Podcast Thon & Groove With Me

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. Before we get into the episode, we wanted our listeners to know that this year we are proud to take part in Podcast Thon, the world's largest charity podcast event. Podcast Thon 2026 is taking place from March 14th to March 20th. And given that these next couple of episodes address some difficult topics, we wanted to take a moment and put out some positive energy to help offset these tough messages. Please consider donating to the charity we have chosen to support called Groove With Me. Groove With Me is a free dance school for girls in East Harlem. It attracts and engages girls during the idle after school hours when 90% of youth violence occurs, instilling life skills such as creativity, problem solving, perseverance, focus, dedication, and accountability, leading to success both in and out of the classroom. Groove with me creates community and builds the self-confidence and self-respect necessary to make positive choices. Please visit podcastthon.org and groovewithme.org to learn more and donate to these worthy causes. As you know, we all danced and very much support that industry and hope that you do as well. Switching gears, this week we will be talking about one of the most notorious 90s scandals, the Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton relationship. We will discuss sexual harassment and want to caution anyone who may be triggered by these topics to listen with care. If this one isn't for you, we understand and hope you will consider visiting podcaston.org and groove with me.org to donate to some amazing causes. Now let's get to it.

Hosts Set The Stage For The 90s

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Hi. Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast. This is Steph, and I'm joined by my fabulous co-hosts, Manny and Karen. Hey ladies. Hi, Steve. Hello. So this week we will continue our journey through the nine nines in the 2000s with one of the most influential scandals of our generation. This 14-month stretch of salacious headlines not only changed the landscape of pop culture, but of news coverage and ultimately the federal government of the United States. We will be discussing none other than Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. But before we get into that, we gotta know. Who are you calling, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

That was great. I want to be like wait, sorry. I just messed up the juvenile entrance.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

I knew exactly where you were going though. Oh, for that one note.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

The nine nines in the 2000s. The nine nines in the 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That was very good.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Thank you. I don't have like the musical acumen to like do the melody, but I can rap it.

unknown 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Okay, Karen's of the week, is that what you just asked us about? Is that why we're here today?

Karen Of The Week: HOA Chaos

SPEAKER_00 3:36

That's why we're here. That's what we that's what we do.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

That's what we do. Uh do you want me to go first, Manny?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

By all means.

unknown 3:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Karen was just embracing her own Monica Lewinsky and giving a heg to the microphone. For those of you not watching, to this podcast. She knows your filthy ways. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Sorry. Okay, so my Karen, I have been holding on to for probably the entire time we've recorded this pod.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Why?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Because I can't quite well for a variety of reasons. It's a woman who was in our HOA and we just moved, so thankfully are no longer part of that. But this woman, uh, she is probably the reason why we moved. She lives in like an alternate reality where like fact doesn't matter. And I I'm not gonna be able to sum up everything in a succinct way, but like this woman is like such a Karen. She is the most important thing in the world. Nobody else matters. Um, everything she does is right, everything everybody else does is wrong. There were like constant complaints about her and her husband who would like fight so loud that everyone in the entire building could hear them and everything that they were saying. She would constantly leave the garage door open. In we live in the city, and so like the garage is on the alley, which is a perfect place for people to steal things if they're unattended. And so um, there was this constant like group text in the building of like the garage door's open again, and then her um alternate reality of like, I was just bringing groceries inside, it's been like one minute, and and like we and it's like arguing with Trump, where it's like you say the sky is blue, and he's like, it's green, and you're like, No, but it's blue, and he's like, No, it's green, and you're like, I how am I supposed to argue with this? Like, and so I can't tell you how many times it would be like I would leave or Bob would leave in the morning to take Maxwell to school and the garage door was open, and then he'd go to the gym, and then he'd go to the grocery store, and then he'd come home, and the garage door was still open. Somebody would say something, and she'd be like, I it's been open for four minutes, and it's like, no, no. So, anyways, it was a problem the whole time we lived there. She was like the literal one, they would leave garbage in the back staircase, like which is inside, and they have babies, so that includes diapers. And so then the entire staircase would just literally smell like baby shit, like rotting three-week-old baby shit. It was just one thing after another with these people. And then, like a week after we left, after we moved out, I was exchanging texts with the woman who used to live below us there, who we were friendly with, and she sent me this crazy email chain of like the goings-on since we left, which was literally like a week at that time. And apparently, this this Karen left the garage door open again, and one of the guys' bikes was stolen, like a nice bike. And so it was only a matter of time. Like, I can't believe honestly that nothing was stolen sooner than that. But then the chaos ensued, and she was telling all these crazy lies in this email, this like long email chain back and forth about things that happened in the past, and it it was like a it was just lies. It was just like a total false recollection of reality. And we have all these text chains to prove what happened and when, like she pulled Bob into these stories. We don't even live there anymore. Yeah, so she's hardcore Aaron. I didn't want to say anything when we still lived there out of fear that maybe she somehow would stumble across. Um, but it's just like it was just one thing after another with them, and I am so grateful to be gone. But I feel really bad for the people who are left stuck with her.

Community: Inconvenience Or Consideration

SPEAKER_02 8:02

It reminds me of this. I've been talking to one of our friends, Celia, about this like idea of community, and there's something going around now of saying, like, being in community is about being inconvenienced. Um, I there's like a whole post, and like there's posts going around circling about like if you want to be in community with people, like it's gonna require you to like sacrifice your time, essentially, is like what it's saying. It's like it's gonna be an inconvenience to you to like show up to these things. It's gonna be an inconvenience to you to do whatever. But this last week I came across someone who said being in community is sure, it might be inconvenience, but it's also about consideration, you know. If I want to be in community with you, like I have to consider like your needs and my needs and like how we're both gonna like be able to, how we're both gonna be able to connect given those various considerations. And one of the things, one of the examples that she gave was like, you know, I told my very good friend that like after she had a baby, like, please don't expect me to watch your baby. Please consider that like I am not, I don't, I don't feel comfortable around younger kids, like I don't, I don't know, I don't feel comfortable like holding them. I don't, you know, I'm just not like a new baby kind of person. And I guess something happened where the mother, I guess there was like a certain age that she was like, I'd feel comfortable watching them at like this age or whatever. But something happened where the mom didn't have anybody in her community or near her in her network to be able to watch the baby, and she had to reach out to this friend to see if she could watch the baby. And that was the whole point of like she considered everybody else, she considered what I had told her, I considered her situation, I considered you know her needs, right? And so, like it this conversation is reminding me of that is like it's just so inconsiderate. Like you live in you live in a in a shared community, and uh you were not considering like people's belongings in the garage, you're not considering people's safety, and when you're opening up, you're not considering people's like want to live in a clean environment by leaving diapers, their health like concerns, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

And the list goes on and on, by the way. There were and on and on out of a thousand different things that they did that was like just wildly inconsiderate. But it makes me really sad. It sounds like when you're talking about whatever this like community is inconvenient or whatever, it feels like like grassroots propaganda to further separate us. That feels to me like a continuation of finding ways to further divide us as opposed to uh getting to know your neighbors. Listen, I don't particularly have time to like chit-chat with every neighbor on the street for 20 minutes every time I see them, but on my new street, everyone is really friendly, and I've realized everyone knows everyone, and they kind of look out for each other. They have all these unspoken rules that we're getting to know about this street, and it's it's like it's lovely. I'm not looking for 40 new friends, but it is nice to know that the people that I'm living around care about one another and about our shared space, and that my child is safe here and the kids are out on the street playing and everyone's looking out for them. Why would that be a bad thing? It's just crazy to me.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah, I think the word inconvenient is what when I heard community is inconvenient, I went to the negative of it, but I feel like I would maybe replace the word inconvenient with it takes effort.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Like it requires you to be to make a level of sacrifice to be in community with other people, like Karen was just saying of I don't small talk, but in in the spirit of community, I will do that in order to understand and to be connected to the people and my community.

Gym Etiquette And The Towel Saga

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah, but I think and that I get that, but I think the words inconvenience and sacrifice sounds negative, which to Karen's point puts it out into the world that it's hard. And it and it is. But if we use positive words, like it takes effort and it, you know, I can't think of another positive word for that for inconvenience, but like when I hear inconvenience, I know it, I know what they meant because I I always think to myself, like, you know, I have to carve out time to check in on my friends and stuff, and that's hard to do, but it's worth it, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, that's that part.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Like headline, you're like, oh well, then I don't want a community. Like you stop there, don't read beyond what they're suggesting to do.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, when in reality your point of that woman had someone who could help her in a moment where she was in need, and that you shouldn't consider that inconvenience.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

That's part of well, that's why I shared the second part. Is that like that's the point, is that like the person was saying exactly what you guys are saying, is that it's not about inconvenience, about consideration. It's about being considerate to the people within your community, yeah, within your network. Just like human decent. But I think the spirit of the first one was saying it was calling all of us out that we have moved to more siloed individual style of living. And in order for us to move beyond that, we are going to have to recognize that we are going to be inconvenienced. Like, I think that was the spirit of it. I don't have the full like language of it, but it was just calling us out as a people. We've been so ordering groceries is convenient for us, right? So we don't have to go to the grocery store to like be in a line or whatever. We we pay for the convenience, right? Um, and they're saying that like if we want to be in true community, we're going to have to step out and be inconvenienced by some of the stuff that our privilege has given us in this new age, I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah, that I feel like that was a call out. Cause I really, you know, you think about all the things you do to avoid any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Contact. Good lord.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay, so my Karen, so we were talking about the gym earlier, and so this is a gym chad for me. I have I feel I I see a lot at the gym and I feel a lot at the gym. So this uh story takes place at lifetime. And um speaking of convenience, like you pay for a certain, like I pay for a certain product at lifetime, right? Like I like the cleanliness, I like the machines, I like the style, right? So I love going there. And seemingly it is great. But there's the there has been times where it's like a little bit more crowded when I've been attending. And um, I do like a tread boot camp. I think I talked about this on season one where like I hop on and off of the tread. So when it's crowded, I do feel slightly bad about that, but not really because I'm allowed to take up space in this world and I get there at a time where like if it's open, then I got it. And it and you don't. So anyway, sometimes when that happens, there's like limited weights, and like I put my stuff out, like I have a whole setup on the mat, I have a whole setup on the like tread where I like, you know, I'm just like indicating that like this sights tyke and Karen doesn't need that quote.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I just thought you were you mispronounced tyken.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Sights tyke and so what's that from?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Really quick, quick for scum. Well, okay. I will know it in like a month.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

So anyway, so I pull up my weights. Oh, and uh an intrical detail of this story is that I also guys, I think I sound very psychotic when I'm telling this story. Now maybe I'm the Karen, but I also bring my own towel. It just like it's like not good for my skin. Like I want, so I use I use a very specific towel. You you both will recognize this, and any mom will recognize anyone will recognize this towel. It is the towel that you wrap, like when the babies are born, you swaddle them in the blue and pink one and the white one. It's a very specific towel that you know is not from the gym, okay? Yeah, so I lay out my stuff, I have the weights there, and I'm on the tread, and I come back and my weights are gone. And I like my towel is like over the like on the whole setup. It just you can tell somebody is there using it, and my weights are gone. And it's this Chad, he like took my weights and was just smoothing them and didn't even like I was like looking around to like see who might have taken them, and he didn't even like acknowledge that he took them. So then, so then uh the next time I see him at the gym, I'm in a different area where it's more secluded. I'm like, you know, I'm on and off the track, whatever, but there's also like mats around where other people like could potentially come and work out. This motherfucker starts swiping his feet, like cleaning his shoes on every single mat that is in the area. He's like wiping his shoes off on each mat as he like walks to go to the water fountain, and then he does the same thing on the way back.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Okay, that's that's not normal, like that's not even part of any procedure.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Why are you doing this to other people's stuff, other people's equipment at the gym? Like you're taking things, you're wiping your feet on things. What is wrong with you? Chat of the week.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Period. Did you s you didn't say anything?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

I mean, I don't, I don't, I can't. Yeah. I can't. I will here's my thing. I will only say something to somebody who does something like that to me if my boxing instructor is around.

Listener Stories Invitation

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Because he'll have my back if something goes down. You are we. What's that? You are we, like a little one? Little one. You're strong though.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

I'd be scared of you. I'm strong. I just want to have a lifetime member there who knows me. Yeah. You must have pushed her to a limit if he talked to you that way. I need somebody who knows me to like be like, no, you fucked me. You wrong. You went too far. You messed with the wrong bitch. Anyway, all right. Let's talk about that blowjob from 96, shall we?

Clinton–Lewinsky: What We Really Knew

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, let's talk about it. You just heard our Karen stories, but we can't be the only ones. If you've had a Karen or Chad encounter or confessional, you've been a Karen yourself. We'd love to hear from you. Wherever you listen, click on the link in our show notes and text us your Karen stories. So as we began planning this 90s-2000s focused season, adding Clinton Lewinsky to the list was a no-brainer. I feel like Lewinsky became a verb, noun, and adjective during this time period. Coverage of this was everywhere. And who can forget I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky? That was a good invitation, thank you. So it was clear that we had to include it this season if we want to call ourselves millennials. When we divvied up the top topics, I was happy to take this one. But as I began to prepare this week, I realized I don't know shit about this. Like, like Monica Lewinsky became a household name in 1998, and I know blowjobs were involved, and of course Bill Clinton. But early confessional, I don't think I understood that this is what led to Clinton's impeachment.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I don't think that existed that either.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

No, I don't either that it was like about lying, right? He like lied under something. Yeah, but like that's the only thing I know, just to be clear. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Well, I didn't understand that, so I just don't think I fully grasped what was happening since I was a sophomore in high school at the time. And I think it was last week we established I wasn't winning any popularity contest. I wasn't cool, I didn't know what anything really was, and I certainly wasn't watching the news. Though I have some interesting statistics which to explain why we did have a lot of exposure to it, even though we weren't not watching the news. But um, before we get going, I was just curious to know what you remember about this scandal, or maybe if you can think back to when Monica Lewinsky's name was being said in the news and you know, all the jokes. How did you view it? Because again, obviously I didn't view it as such a monumental moment politically, that it was such big news that the second president to ever be impeached began with this situation. Like it was pretty major. Um, I felt like it was more kind of silly from my perspective. So I was curious, like, how did how do you remember it? Got it.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

So I can start. Um I was when we were coming into this today, I was even trying to remember like exactly what time frame was this. I couldn't recall. So I was in high school, is what I think I'm taking from this.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, the time frame was 1998 through um 1999, like the beginning of 99, but all in 98.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Middle school, high school. Yeah, because I feel like okay, what I genuinely what I remember was that Monica Lewinsky was a was an intern in the White House. I don't really even know what she did there except allegedly give blowjob. But like that was all over the news was like somehow it came out. I don't know if she accused him or if somebody else put it out in the media or something, but like everyone was talking about how allegedly Bill was fooling around with this intern and then he was denying it. And so there was like a lot of shaming of her. And I don't remember how we all finally came to an agreement or understanding that it did in fact happen. Maybe he admitted to it at some point. But I think there was a point in time where it was like some people were like no I believe Bill Clinton that it didn't happen. And some people were like I believe that it did you know and then I feel like as a society we all kind of agree now that it did. Anyways that's all I got. And then he was impeached because oh but maybe this is it. Like he lied. So he had said I didn't have sexual relations with that woman or whatever. And then somehow it came out that actually he did and so that's why they impeached him because he lied or something which was and then and then I remember all the debate around like that ensued around like is this an impeachable offense because he cheated on his wife which is shitty and he is a dirt bag but also like is that a reflection of his ability to lead this country or fulfill his role. That's what I got I pretty much Okay you said some gems. Oh good yeah that's what I'm here for.

Media Saturation And Cultural Memory

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah yeah I have pretty much the same recollection it's really hard because as we were talking about before we jumped on the podcast with my 14 year old daughter what I see now versus what I saw back then um I it's it's very blurry and I know a little bit more about it now so I'm not sure if what I know now is what I actually thought back then or it's not why you know you've picked it along the way. Yeah my sidebar this is just a really cool analogy but one of my mentors told me consider your brain like a computer that is filled with documents and your memories are a word document and every time you pull up that word document and that memory you make a revision of it and an edit. So you might add a comma you might add bold you might underline right and so that's what's coming up for me right here is I feel like I remember that Monica Lewinsky was villain like shamed by her appearance. Yes I was gonna add that like I feel like there's so much topic about or so much discussion about what she looked like what she looked like like this is like not an un like a desirable affair compared to Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe right and so I think that was some of the salaciousness around he possibly couldn't do it because this woman isn't attractive enough to be or if he did do it then let's impeach him because it's not a voluntuous sex goddess that he's having the affair with and so that is wrong because he cheated on his wife with an uglier woman. I I feel like that is what I got that made it all more of a joke rather than the way that we talk about Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe is like they had this mysterious relationship you know yeah yeah never made that parallel me neither and I feel because I do remember I feel like my kid self just remembers the beret like and people just talking about like her wearing a beret and stuff and um and I just remember I linked the what a detail but you guys like I so anytime anybody imitated her which was a lot they always wore the little beret right the beret oh my gosh yeah and so as I was like kind of putting everything together immediately I went straight to I was like I swear there was an MM video where he's imitating Bill Clinton and then a woman crawls out from under the desk wearing a beret looking like Monica Lewinsky.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And so I spent I would say about 20 minutes trying to find the the exact music video. Lo and behold it was his debut song My Name Is Yeah yeah so I linked the I have linked it is linked Karen's my thing uh followers like we it's linked because you watch that video because first of all what what an intro to MM this song came out in 99 and it was like such pop culture and anyway so that's what I picture do you have statistics on how many songs were about no I don't I don't know all the lyrics I don't know if you and you guys know this about me but I don't ever know words to songs really ever but I don't know that he addresses it in the song I think there is another song of MM's because this is what derailed me like this is what took me 15 20 minutes when I was putting it in I thought if I put MM Monica Lewinsky portrayal music video it would pull up the whatever 1999 music video and now it'd be done but there was another song called Rap God that he does specifically mention Monica Lewinsky and it really recent well let's put a pen in Rap God for our Diddy episode there's some language in there.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah really girl no exact count exists but the cut did an analysis and found close to 128 hip-hop tracks referencing Monica but yeah so I feel like that's kind of how I was consuming the story was through music and through like TV and not really from a hard hitting like watching the news and that kind of thing.

Politics, Impeachment, And Public Opinion

SPEAKER_00 28:26

We were young yeah we were so young so I'm gonna share this quote um and I'm gonna add in some a little bit more information here. So I have a couple sources one I used this um Time magazine article that just basically gives you timestamps of how this story developed and I also referenced an essay written by Monica Lewinsky in Vanity Fair. She wrote it in 2018 which is the 20th anniversary of the scandal beginning um so this quote is from Monica Lewinsky she says maybe you remember or have heard stories about how the scandal saturated television and radio newspapers magazines and the internet Saturday Night Live and the Sunday morning opinion programs dinner party conversation and water cooler discussion late night monologues and political talk shows definitely the talk shows in the Washington Post alone there were 125 articles written about this crisis in just the first 10 days oh in just the first 10 days many 125 articles in 10 days damn okay many parents felt compelled and this is what I from one newspaper publication by the way that's one newspaper publication. That shit is wild um still within her quote many parents felt compel compelled to discuss sexual issues with their children earlier than they might have wanted to they had to explain why lying even if the president did it was not acceptable behavior. So that was her quote and we're gonna touch on that in a minute and I also just want to share this stat from the New York Times article it just says that by time's count so this is just their count 2345 minutes of the CBS NBC and ABC evening newscasts between January 22nd 1998 and February 12 1999 had been devoted to the scandal so like when we say that it was everywhere and definitely should be included if we're talking millennial like you know 90s timeframe like it was everywhere and it's just interesting to see like what how teenagers might have taken the information in versus how our parents would have taken the information in because if it happened while we were adults I know I would have paid attention to it in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Oh yeah but it reached everyone but in this day and age that number would have been quadruple quadruple in social media and people wanting to break the news like oh yeah it would be massive for sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

So my next question is because she brings up the fact that it did end up causing families to have to have conversations a little earlier in there than they may have planned or maybe it was right when they were ready to have those type of conversations but do you do you feel like um did this come up at home at all or um did or did were there conversations about like she said like sexual issues that like came up during this time I mean I was probably in eighth and ninth grade so I feel like my mom had already had the very awkward sex talk with me that included um an explanation of what an erection was which that's a conversation for another day.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Yeah so I don't and I was the younger of the siblings right so I feel like I knew in the beginning of the episode that your mom would understand.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah so I I don't I don't feel like we were having conversations that were like too early you know like we were we were old enough to have already had discussions about sex and stuff but I'm trying to think of like my family so my parents were both you know left leaning and I feel like the conversation in our house was like around how everything was being blown wildly out of proportion. Like sure our president was an adulterer and a creep but like the noise around all of it was so focused on like he can't possibly be fit to serve as president. And it's like I think I don't know if my parents said it but I think I understood it as like uh you think he's the first president to ever do something inappropriate with a woman that wasn't his wife like that was my like so he's the first one to get caught you know yeah I was gonna say this feels very like right wing coded yes yeah that's in my house that's what it felt like my parents were like this is a way for the Republicans to make Democrats look bad and hopefully get a president out of office.

Timeline: From Denial To Acquittal

SPEAKER_00 33:27

That is all it is I'm glad you brought that up because that was actually what Hillary Clinton like I think her only statement made about this during the time was this is a what you said kind of blown out of proportion. It is a right wing she I think she used the word right wing like grasp at kind of taking him down but he remained popular as a president midterm elections happened in 19 the Democrats actually gained five seats in Congress that year.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Wow probably because of like that that feeling that this was just like just a move to try to shame the Democrats as opposed to like actual news exactly well what was what else was going on at the time wasn't this there's a war going I'm I'm remembering us invading somewhere having yes some sort of war happen because I remember watching that I I do have a very vivid memory of in social studies class watching something war related happening during the same time this was happening.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yes he he he did um order um Iraq to be bombed at a certain point Clinton orders airstrikes against Iraq after Saddam Hussein refuses to allow UN weapons inspectors to enter the country that's what it was Saddam Hussein yep and by the way that delayed the House's impeachment vote yes okay yes so now now this is what I remember about that I remember Saddam Hussein Saddam Hussein would you guys like me maybe to take you through like a little timeline the timeline the time article is very long lots of details so I just pulled out kind of some key things okay okay so in January um on January 26th 1998 is when Clinton made the famous quote I do not have sexual relations with that woman is Lewinsky April 1st that year a judge dismisses Paula Jones's sexual harassment suit so simult so the reason that Lewinsky's situation was brought up is because Paula Jones who was was accusing President Clinton of sexual harassment in Arkansas her attorneys were looking for this story that was starting to break in January of '98 to s and they wanted to add it to her case to prove that that he has a trend of sexual harassment in the workplace August 17th Clinton testifies to the grand jury for more than four hours on a closed circuit television he admits to inappropriate intimate contact but also says that he had given accurate evidence in January. So in January he denied it completely but he said he did give accurate evidence in January arguing that it depends on what the meaning of the word is is and I want to put a pin in that because that that was I felt like that was a big like the meaning of sex. And then he speaks to the nation um and uh addresses he said indeed I did have a relationship with Bluinsky that was not appropriate. So I think after that it wasn't a question of whether he did or not it's just his definition of sex and did he um he it did he perjure himself which the House of Representatives did say he did.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Star report was released September 11th of 98 uh December 11th um the committee um recommended impeachment january 7th 99 the trial begins of um in the Senate and then February 12th he was acquitted um of um his impeachment yeah I I'd love to know more about Monica if you have it I came across this in the 1996 research I was doing Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp their relationship and the influence Linda Tripp had on Monica Lewinsky coming public.

Linda Tripp, Ken Starr, And The Tapes

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Okay yeah so what um I read the article that you um linked and what I was gravitating to was first of all I didn't know who Linda Tripp was I didn't know who Ken Starr was I didn't under I remember the name Paula Jones and I was confusing her Paula Jones' face with Linda Tripp like I was I didn't understand any of this stuff um but Linda Tripp was um worked in the Pentagon and when the relationship when the relationship was found out between Lewinsky and Clinton Lewinsky was moved to the Pentagon so removed from the White House to the Pentagon and that's where she met Linda Tripp who was 20 some years her senior but they became friends and she started began confiding in her about the relationship so then Linda Tripp I'm assuming is an op and someone told like asked her she decided she was disgusted by by Clinton and she felt it important that he be brought down and she agreed to then be wired by the FBI. And so she recorded 20 hours of conversation between her and Lewinsky um and Lewinsky's time like I just really love him and he was is so handsome and you know I know this is so hard and like blah blah blah blah you know and every little thing that she was saying was being recorded and then she uh Linda Tripp returned the 20 hours of tape over to Ken Star who then wrote the star report and that's how it became like evident that there was an actual FBI no he was not FBI he was an independent counsel okay yeah that investigated this I thought he was like one of the attorneys yeah okay yes yeah um and so like you know all of that though that's disgusting disgusting like what an invasion of privacy right and like someone saturating to her like he's the like criminal or Monica Lewinsky having someone wire and talk to her like she's a victim.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Bill Clinton was the most powerful man in the world and using his power to get something from a woman and somehow now we're wiring ourselves and getting information out of the victim. What the fuck is that?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

It just feels very today because I feel like we are so divisive and we're so partisan and I feel like what Linda Tripp did then would absolutely happen now to take down a Democrat like from the looking at MAGA people. It just seemed very it seemed very familiar for the House to say ooh we got him and I feel like you know MAGA people feel the same way when we Donald Trump was impeached I feel like they probably feel the same way because it was like ah we got him.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I didn't I guess I I grew up in a you know democratic house or a Democrat household or whatever. Um and so my memories are certainly skewed on this topic but I didn't realize there was so much disdain or dislike of Bill Clinton that they would go to these lengths to try to get him out of office. This feels like a big stretch and I didn't realize he was a one of those presidents that people were targeting.

Power, Consent, And Patriarchy

SPEAKER_02 41:05

The Republicans targeting a Democrat in office to get him out that doesn't sound familiar they came for Obama for wearing a tan suit.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah but um but Obama is black yeah it doesn't matter they're anybody who's anti their ideology is yeah gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yeah it's and this is why I'm like I clearly lived in a very biased bubble because I it I just didn't hear that rhetoric that especially in the 90s the economy was good we weren't at war there's the Silicon Valley boom everything was pretty good and so they don't I didn't realize there was any I don't think I think Karen what you're saying I don't think that there was public rhetoric I think that the Republicans jumped on this and tried to turn it into something which didn't end up working because like I said you know 1998 midterm elections the Democrats gained five seats and and he was he remained wildly popular as a president and so and maybe that's why because everyone was like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Like this is such a non-issue and everything is really good right now so what are you what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah and I think Americans even kind of was trying to grapple with you know the economy's really good right now we're living life like it should we really be doing all this just for a blow job you know that all presidents do that we know you know that's so then that's where the conversation really actually went publicly publicly I think but I think the Republicans maybe did try to um I I feel like you kind of said it already Karen you said that Monica Lewinsky was a victim. So I want to read this quote from her like from her essay she says if the and it if the internet was a bê noir to me in 1998 and I had to look up what bê noir is and it's like something you dislike if the internet was a bê noir in 1998 its stepchild social media has been a savior for millions of women today notwithstanding all the cyberbullying online harassment doxing and slut shaming virtually anyone can share her or his Me Too story and be instantly welcomed into a tribe. In addition the democratizing potential of the internet to open up and support networks and penetrate what used to be closed circles of power is something that was unavailable to me back then. Power in that case remained in the hands of the president and his minions the Congress the prosecutors and the press so her article was entitled Emerging from the House of Gaslight in the age of Me Too this article was written on February 2018 that's two years into Donald Trump's first term and the Me Too movement so at this time you know she mentions in that article Cosby, Weinstein, all of those. And so she felt freed to say something at this time, helping us start to realize. Because I feel like back. So I guess my original original question the way I wrote it was how do you remember thinking of Monica Winsky in 98? And how do you view her now? Because I feel like in 98, there was a lot of like she was vilified.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Yeah, it was her fault. And this action of Linda what's her face putting a wire on and secretly recording her is a perfect example. They treated her as the temptress, like it's her fault that the president strayed off the straight and narrow. It's just, yeah. And like, I don't think I had an opinion either way when I was younger, but reflecting on it, like that is the messaging that I heard was that she was a bad woman who took advantage of a vulnerable man and his sexual urges. You know what I mean? And it's like, no, he was literally the most powerful man in the entire world. He could have whatever, and he believed whomever he wanted, and he did. And she was a 20-something, 24 influenzable young woman who really looked up to him and you know, like assumed he was a good person, and also I'm sure to some degree assumed she can't say no to the most powerful man in the world, like whether consciously or unconsciously, you know, like that is that thought has to be somewhere there. I don't know.

What Counts As Sex

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah, I think it's not yeah. I don't know if she assumed he was a good person, he was cheating on his wife. Yeah. But uh I think the bigger conversation here is around consent and our definition of consent as a society. And I think our disbelief in the act comes from the root of consent and power. Uh she was 24, and you know, historically, older men and younger women is accepted. So, what is the proper age to say that this wasn't a consensual act? The it's the blurriness comes from the power that he has in holding the office. And that when I think about like Cosby and Weinstein and R. Kelly, and when we talk about Diddy, like that is the definition of consent that we as a society have not yet come to consensus on uh of of like public belief, you know, of like supporting women, and it's the patriarchy, right? Like it's this is how these men stay in power, is because we don't have a real language around, you know, you can consent any I can even in my own marriage, I still have consent, you know, like and I don't think that that is talked about enough to normalize it in our like everyday conversations of like it doesn't matter how old she was or if he was like having an affair in his marriage, his power is what made this murky and distasteful. And to Karen's point, like that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't be the president of the United States here, and that's right, that's where like our extreme ideology is fucked up, right? Because that's not the conversation either. The conversation is around when you are in a hierarchy or have a position of power, how do you treat the people within your orbit? And what is and and and what is the quote unquote crime when you like uh you know go against that go against that line. And we don't have anything like that in society yet that will really address that issue.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

I think I mean this will this is like a whole separate discussion, I think, on consent and the role of power in that. But I think we want a black and white answer for things like this, and there's so much gray, you know, like yeah, it's so it's just impossible. Like every situation has its own circumstances that have to be considered. I think that's why it makes it so hard, this like element of power, because then you know people will go to the extreme and be like, okay, so then the president of the United States, if he's or she is not married, like could never date anybody because they're always going to be in a position of power, and it's like, no, but then like how do you define it? It's so hard, and I don't think we as a society do well with ambiguity in these types of discussions. You know, like everyone always takes it to the most extreme example, and and the reality is it's always somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

In this case, do you feel like there's ambiguity though? I feel like around Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Well, I think that like, and I feel like we'll talk about this a little bit more in our next episode, but like I think, you know, our system is built on like, you know, innocent until proven guilty. Also, does the punishment meet the crime? And in like many situations, the punishment does not meet the crime. Either we're like overly punishing people, like we were talking about before we got on this podcast about like overly punishing teenagers and putting them into life sentences for things that they have no control over with their frontal lobe, or we're not making criminal offenses that are harmful and hurtful to people in our society. Like we haven't def we haven't clarified. There's and we haven't clarified it because the people in power are men. And the reason why we're committing these crimes. Yeah. Or we have such a like masculine energy that we subscribe to that we are not taking into account like the actual harm that is done here. We don't have any kind of, you know, we're still kind of operating out of this like very archaic, like eye for an eye kind of thing. And it's I don't know. I just feel like I feel it's shifting a little bit because we're having the conversations around it. I still personally don't believe that this is an impeachable offense. I really don't, but I don't know why. Yeah, so you never got to that.

Hillary’s Silence And Public Blame

SPEAKER_00 50:41

What is is oh the because that's how um Bill Clinton was trying to explain away why he why he started by saying, I did not have sexual relations with that woman, and then had to backtrack and then say we did have an intimate relationship. And so the then I felt I do remember this from this time frame was his oral sex. Because like so when he was saying, when you say, Did you have a sexual relationship with this woman?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

He said no because they did not ever have intercourse, and so his that's the way he defended that's how he defended what he said, and he said now we all know that oral sex is sexual relations, like sexual.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yeah, but I feel like that I feel like I feel like defining just sex happened then, you know. I feel like like because didn't like I feel like sex in the city came out around that same time, like 299, 2000. I remember that actually because I'm a big fan of Sex in the City, and there was an episode where there was a a young writer who was following Carrie around, and she was like, she was basically saying, I'm a virgin, but I love your which is called Sex in the City. And Carrie's like, D do you read my column? And she was like, No, I just am fascinated by like dating and stuff, and she was like, and I'm a true virgin. She was like, No Lewinsky here, like no blowjobs, like no, I mean, I have not done anything. And I feel like the conversation around what sex is and how what it all encompasses happened then. I feel like I remember having those um conversations, like, were you really a virgin? Like, or did you, you know what I mean? And yeah, anybody was excited in my life, and you know, like I was considered, you know, like just what very heavy in the church, and I, you know what I mean. So um, so when that came up, I was this that this is what I remember about it, is just the talk about sex and what sex includes. And you know, if I if you're still a virgin, if you know, I just felt like that conversation amongst you know teenagers was was happening then.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Yeah, I agree. I think that you know, when you're like under the court of law, that language has to be so specific. So specific. Yes, to Karen's point, like we all know that like that is a sexual act, but in the court of law, if you're not saying your penis in her vagina, mouth or in her vagina, or in yeah, then he can get away with that. But he didn't, he was impeached, right? Right, right, right. No, I'm saying I'm saying he can get away with like that quote unquote lying under the court of law because if it the specific question wasn't asked.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Did you have sexual intercourse? It was yeah, did you penetrate?

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Did you a good lawyer would have been like, did you penetrate? Did she put her did you did you put your penis?

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Yeah, like here's a few options, yeah. Yes, but I I also feel like it was it wasn't until August or whatever you were saying, Steph, where they even realized they needed to come up with a defense because I'm sure at the time that it all started to go public, he wasn't thinking he would actually get impeached. If you recall at the time, like impeachment wasn't a thing we did to presidents like when the president had been impeached before, and now it's commonplace.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Mal Gawinsky was questioned and she gave an affidavit that they did not have a relationship at all. And so then when he did his testifying in the grand jury, he then said the same thing. No, we did not have a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Yeah, it's fascinating. Are we so confessionals right now? Um go ahead, Steph. I don't okay, I actually don't have any.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

So I felt like going into this, I was like, man, we really ruined her, we as a society really ruined Monica Lewinsky's life. And if you read her essay, and there's an article before this that she wrote that really outlined how she was in hiding pretty much, and she lived a really tough life after this, and that was all of her 30s and 40s, and today she's 52 years old. And I'm like slut shaming and the power and the sexual harassment and all of that kind of stuff. She really truly was a victim, and I just want to say that I believe that 100%. But when I read her article, I noticed that she did not mention this. Is my confessional, so like just remember, I'm confessing my heart here. When I read her article and I skimmed the other one, not one mention of Hillary Clinton ever.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

And for I've noticed in this conversation too, we haven't we have not talked about her either.

Closing Notes And Next Week’s Tease

SPEAKER_00 55:42

And as a married woman, you know, 24 is young, but not so young that you don't know that when um a person has a wife and a and a child and a family, and and I'm and again, he's responsible for his relationship, and so he's the one who committed the affair and the adultery and the whatever. Um, but and and so maybe it's more about him than it is about Monica Winsky, but no one takes into consideration Hillary Clinton. And it's bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

I think I kind of wonder if it's because um everyone knew that Bill was a cheater and a sleaze, and like what so she heard about she can lie in. There is some shaming of Hillary for never commenting on it and staying with him. It's like everyone blames the women in this scenario when Bill is the shithead.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

He's the shithead.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

The shithead, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it sucks. Did you guys watch the Hillary doc?

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yeah, that's I was gonna say, I think it has for me, it's bringing up like the first lady that Hillary was compared to any other first lady. Like, she's the only first lady who ever ran for president, you know. So like she was like super smart and brilliant and intelligent and like she knew things, uh, you know, she has a high understanding of the political stratosphere that like other first ladies just don't have. And so I think arguably a better politician than her husband was. Yeah, so I think a lot of that silence came, you know, from her restraint, honestly. Yeah, knowing the political system that she was involved in. So I don't know. It's fascinating, fascinating, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Well, thank you guys for a great conversation. I'm really excited. I agree with you, Manny. I feel like what we talk about next week will kind of be a good follow-up to this because I think some of this might come back up again.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Yeah. All right.

unknown 58:01

Thanks.

Sign-Off And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_02 58:02

See you all next week. Bye. Bye. Hey, bitches, that's a wrap on another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. If you liked what you heard or didn't, go to our show page and leave a review. Just know we will call you out. And if unlike my two co-hosts, you find yourself scrolling endlessly on TikTok, follow us at you can call me Karen. And if you're still living in the 20th century like a boomer, don't worry. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at you can call me Karen underscore pod. We love you for listening.