Not Really Strangers

From Assumption to Curiosity: Susanna Pollack on Immersive Media and the Distance Between Us

• USA for UNHCR • Season 2 • Episode 4

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0:00 | 27:21

Susanna Pollack, President of Games for Change and a cross-sector leader with over 25 years of experience in traditional and interactive media, joins host Suzanne Ehlers for a conversation that bridges virtual worlds and lived realities. From Clouds Over Sidra — the UN's landmark VR film set inside a Syrian refugee camp — to the immersive theater of The Jungle, the award-winning text-based game Bury Me, My Love, and Minecraft Education's use in displaced communities, Susanna illustrates how games and immersive media can build empathy, teach skills, and restore agency in ways few other mediums can match. She also reflects on Games for Change's growing partnership with the UN through the Games and SDG Summit, and on her experience with USA for UNHCR's innovation hub, The Hive, before closing with one of the episode's most resonant ideas: that a stranger is simply someone whose story you haven't heard yet, and that the shift from assumption to curiosity is where belonging begins.

Topics:

  • Home as community, belonging, and shared purpose beyond a physical address
  • Games as education and skills-building tools within refugee camps and integration classrooms
  • Minecraft Education's use in displaced communities for digital literacy and future-building
  • Games for Change: 20+ years at the intersection of the gaming industry and social impact
  • USA for UNHCR's Hive innovation hub: where creativity meets humanitarian context
  • Gaming's global scale: 3+ billion players; the industry is larger than film, TV, and radio combined
  • Cross-sector partnerships as the engine of meaningful social change
  • The stranger as potential: moving from assumption to curiosity

Episode Resources:


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SPEAKER_00

Hi, I'm Suzanne Ahlers, and this is Not Really Strangers, the podcast where we explore just how connected the refugee experience is to our everyday lives and to the social issues that matter most to us. Thanks for joining us for another conversation with a brand new guest, here to share the story of how they came to realize that their story and the refugee story were intertwined. By the end of this episode, you'll see that in this global community, the distance between us is often much shorter than we think. Let's dive in. Here we are. Welcome, Susanna Pollack. It's so nice to have you with us. Thank you for making the time for this conversation. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. We are gonna start off with a question around um where you're dialing in from. I'm dialing in from Connecticut. Excellent. And the weather there, at least while we're recording this, is very cold.

SPEAKER_01

We have had quite a winter. There's snow on the ground, there's more snow coming. Um, so yeah, it's a little bit of a wintry wonderland.

SPEAKER_00

A wintry wonderland. Well, I'm glad that you're with us and you've you've got a cozy sweater on and ready for a good conversation. Um, so you're calling in from Connecticut. Where do you consider home? And maybe it's Connecticut, maybe it's someplace else.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so you know, for me, home is like both geographic but also relational. It's I see it where my family is. And I have family here in the region. Um, and that's, you know, for me, that's the anchor of what home is, but it's also a community. I think home is a community. And uh I spend so much of my career building communities across sectors that um it's for me, it's also about it like creating a sense of belonging and shared purpose is almost as important to me as a physical address.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me a little bit about refugees and where that issue first came onto your radar, either professionally or personally.

SPEAKER_01

Um Well, I think I think the the way that I really started thinking about refugees as it's related to our work, um, my work, is is through this ongoing thread around storytelling. Uh early in my career, I worked in both television and film and saw firsthand how narratives can shape empathy by helping with understand perspective understanding perspectives and um humanizing, right? And making personal other people's stories. Um but it really wasn't uh when I where it really intersected with my work um at Games for Change. Um my my first connection to it was actually within uh immersive media, so virtual reality. And I had seen what is now a seminal piece, I think, in that space called Clouds over Sidra. If you are familiar with that virtual reality experience, it was actually a UN initiative. Um uh and it was it's a virtual reality experience that places viewers inside of a refugee camp in Jordan. And it and it's through the perspective of a 12-year-old Syrian girl named Sidra. And the it it the viewer were was taken around the camp, experiencing everyday life as a friend of Sidra's, or and so she's speaking directly to you, showing you her life. And I felt like that transported me into a place I otherwise wouldn't have seen in that kind of first person experience. Um, and I think it was as a piece incredibly helpful in building empathize, empathy, um, and for mobilizing humanitarian support. And I think that was like back in 2019. Um, and since then, and we can talk about it later, I've seen many projects that um brought helps bring an issue that can seem uh political. It can seem far away and brings it to a very personal um experience that's relatable. And and that's really when you can start building empathy.

SPEAKER_00

We last season had a guest who also was sort of moved in the refugee experience by a similar, different but similar immersive experience, you know, really almost like a scenario of forced displacement. And he was sort of role-playing forced displacement over a period of time. And you sort of know intellectually you're gonna get out safe, but in the moment you feel so physically vulnerable and really puts you in the shoes of those who are leaving everything they've known in the dark of night with kids, whatever it is. Um, that the Klaus River Sidra, I I have to tell you, I'm not sure that I've done it, although I know that there are a number of UN, you know, sort of related and anchored kind of VR experiences and um and how powerful that is. I was in Syria uh in November of last year. And although I did not meet a 12-year-old girl named Sidra, I met a number of 12-year-olds. So as you're talking about Sidra, my my memories are going back to these young boys who were so happy to take us on a tour of their kind of compound. We were in the suburbs of Damascus. So, Susanna, I'm I'm, you know, that story of Syria is so real for me. And it just like how quickly this enormous distance can become so small between two humans who are living such dramatically different daily realities. I mean, that must, I mean, uh you no doubt you've had other experiences that have sort of shortened that distance for you as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, one interesting thing about um immersive experience or virtual reality experiences, well, is the is the the fat the virtue of them being immersive. You see, you know, you're in an you're you are otherwise, you know, in a virtual space, but your perception is that you are in a you know 360, you know, um uh environment. Theater can do the same thing. And it's and I I remember around the same time Clouds of Sidra came out, um, there was a theater piece that I saw in London called The Jungle. And it references uh the refugee camp in France called Calais. And they created this like a dome-like experience where you sat at tables in groups, like the Lebanese group, the Syrian group, um, with your community as you see this play take place ostensibly like on tables in front of you. And so you were part of the theater and you um and you were put into these communities, talk about home, like where you felt safe and comfortable. I'd love to see it again. It was produced by Good Chance Theater. Um, and it was a very, very moving experience.

SPEAKER_00

Are there other like moments or projects from the kind of professional life you lead that really stand out as being powerful for refugees, for forced displacement, and for the work of UNHCR?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, as we said, we talked about uh virtual reality being a um a vehicle to help build empathy. You know, video games can do the same thing, um, particularly in perspective taking, as uh you often are asked to step into the role of a character. And whether it's to walk in the shoes through their experience or participating in some kind of engagement, and there are a few examples that really stand out to me. Um, one is something called Bury Me My Love, which is a text-based narrative, meaning that it's it's like a, you know, it's a um a story that would pop up, you know, um uh things that people say. And it's also following a Syrian woman fleeing Europe. Um and what makes it really um, you know, have impact is, well, first of all, it was based on real testimonies. So having, you know, I talked earlier about cross-sector partnerships, having people from different disciplines involved, it builds in a sense of like emotional literacy and empathy. Um, uh it humanizes displacement in a very personal way. Um and that project not only has won numerous awards, um the creators also um worked with the with another UN entity, uh UNESCO's um MGIEP, the Mahatma Gandhi Institute of Education, Peace, and Sustainability, to create lesson plans for use in classrooms and cultural institutions. So there's the experience that one has within the game.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then there's experience one can have outside the game in facilitated environments to help um bolster and have uh the experience to help create dialogue for those who communicate, you know, experience it together. So there's actually curriculum and lesson plans around the game of burying me, my love. And I think that's a it's a great combination and support systems, you know, for um uh for educators, for facilitators who want to leverage what games can be often a form of engagement that appeals, you know, to many different kinds of demographics, um uh and it can be quite effective. And you can measure the impact, right, it uh through that. So there's another project called We the Refugees, Colonel Ticket Ticket to Europe. And it's an interactive fiction game that puts players in the shoes of a writer, a European writer, who embeds himself in the refugee crisis and he travels through North Africa and five countries to reach Europe, also inspired by real interviews with refugees and um a visit to a refugee camp. Um, again, grounded in firsthand research, reviewed by NGO experts for authenticity. Um there's a host of characters that are written in through, I don't know if you know the expression, branched narratives. It's kind of like a choose your own adventure, right? So depending on how the choices you make, there's so many different outcomes. So you can play through the game multiple times and have different experiences. Um it explores not only the journey of the ex of the refugees, but also the challenges of a writer looking to cover the story. And I think that's another powerful, you know, perspective. Um, and there's one other which I want to say. So, so the the interesting things about games is like there are games that there are different types of games that can have different impact goals. And we've talked about empathy and we've talked about perspective taking. Another type of impact um might be education, right? How can you teach people things through a game, right? The transfer of knowledge and help build skills. And there's a whole um a whole category, I'd say, of games that are being used within refugee camps in displaced communities to help people through education or training. Um, and again, using this medium to to be able to reach people where they are because of the um, you know, because of how prevalent a lot of it is because of the phones, right? Having phones available. Right. So Minecraft education actually does this very well. Um, you know, I think most of your listeners are familiar with Minecraft. It's the most downloaded game in the world. So Minecraft education is the product that Minecraft uh does run separately, and it's entirely education material that can be used in the classroom. And originally started by teachers who started creating lesson plans and experiences within Minecraft because they wanted to meet kids where they are. Where they are. And there's a whole, yeah, and there's a whole um, as I said, like a category of games that teach digital literacy, language learning, creative skills that are used in refugee camps and integration classrooms. Um, and they can support coding, design thinking, collaboration, um, community rebuilding. And these games are or and this type of learning helps rebuild agency and future-focused skills.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. I mean, I I my one of my questions was what can the impact be on the refugee side of things? And you you answered that. You anticipated that question that there's this whole set of games and VR experiences where I love this notion of sort of building empathy through that immersive experience and that how, you know, it's all it's sort of in your bones once you've been through it and your body has sort of, you know, responded at the molecular level to a sense of fear or a sense of vulnerability about losing a house. I mean, that is stuff that the body does not forget, right? And so then it deepens, hopefully, your your commitment and courage as an advocate and an ally for those who've been displaced. But I also love thinking about the application of games in a displaced setting. So, how do we educate people where they are and sort of with the hope of building their own future if that's what the only thing that they have control over in the, in the in the sort of near term? Um, yeah, I just love thinking about that. You've talked a bit about the sort of the larger sector. You certainly invoked the UN's name a couple of times in these immersive experiences and sort of the UNESCO example. Can you talk in any specificity around your partnership with with my organization, with USA for UNHCR? We have, as you well know, an innovation hub called the Hive. Um, and and I think I hope that that work has brought you even closer to the UN Refugee Agency. Can you talk a little bit about what that engagement has looked like?

SPEAKER_01

I find that the Hive has been like an extraordinary space because it brings innovation into like um a humanitarian context. So I went into it thinking I knew what UNHCR does. Um but it's really helped deepen my understanding. Um and it could speak to a little bit about what I'm talking about. Like it's there's the urgency and the reactive and the necessary, you know, uh crisis-driven work, but then there's a long-term system thinking and planning. Totally. Um and innovation in that space isn't, you know, it's not flashy. It's it has to be practical, right? And has to um solve real problems um and barriers that can have sustainability for displaced, you know, communities. And I I just have such a deep respect and a deeper understanding of the role and and how we all play a part. And it's not just one community to solve. So we at Games for Change are very active in bringing together the games industry and you and UN system to um explore how games and immersive media can drive real world change and advance the sustainable development goals. You know, games represent um, or uh there are gamers um represent over 3 billion people on the planet are playing games from a uh industry size. The video games industry is larger than film, television, and radio combined. So you really have this very dominant form of media, you know, today in 2026. And um you think about opportunity, you know, there's tremendous opportunity to leverage that across many different impact areas.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the scale, I just, you know, once again, three billion people, so not half of the world's population, but not that far from half of the world's population is playing games, which is incredible. And that as a as sort of an industry, its sort of financial impact is more than film, radio, and TV combined. Like I want the listener to just sit with that. So if you sort of think, oh, games are fringe and this isn't really sort of, you know, important, we shouldn't think of it as its own stakeholder. It is, it is really consequential. The numbers there, the dollars there, the impact, and what a partnership between that kind of industry could have with the UN, other multilaterals, development organizations that are, that are really looking to lift people out of poverty and to stabilize countries and communities in such a moment of kind of global chaos. Frankly, there's been such a reckoning of the world order over the last few years. Um, it's just really it's amazing to think about that impact and what an incredible career you've had to be at this point to be able to think in those kinds of um at that scale and at that level, frankly.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you know, we've been at it for over 20 years and have grown alongside the games industry during that time. And I do feel like we're at this inflection point where you can't deny that games have such an influence on um on culture, on society. Um, and uh there's, you know, there's still, I'll say, you know, limited controversy or misunderstanding about games. It is trim predominantly used for entertainment, which is great, has value in and of itself. Uh, but our belief is that you can, if we can carve some of that energy towards social good because the opportunity is there, because of the number of people who have access to games, um, we want to put our efforts towards that.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. Really, Simon. Just uh a vote for the listener to again look at the show notes to sort of explore some of the things that Susanna is raising. We'll leave links. We'll, you know, we'll sort of make sure that people are connected to some of the, certainly some of the VR experiences and some of the more immersive experiences you've listed. I suspect that this will be a newer area of kind of impact and connection for some of our listeners. And so I really just am pushing people to bring their curious selves and to get educated about what's happening in this space. Um, I'm gonna go back to the name of this podcast, which is called Not Really Strangers. And it's the idea that being um that we're not strangers, right? That we are so connected from a humanity perspective. And you gave a beautiful example of that earlier with your storytelling around Sidra. And I was then reminded of um some Syrian boys who um are not strangers to me at all anymore, and like what an incredible effort we've made to bring more inclusion and belonging to to the work that we're doing. What does the idea of being a stranger mean to you at this moment in the world?

SPEAKER_01

Um I'm such a people person as at heart that for me the idea of a stranger is really about potential. Like a stranger to me is simply someone whose story I haven't heard yet. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the moment like I feel like in such a you know polarized world, but if we can move from the moment we could shift assumption to curiosity, then something changes. Um and it can happen in the simplest of ways, right? You when you ask somebody, you know, where they're from, what shaped them, what they care about, like this category of unknown person dissolves and a human being appear appears. Um so that, you know, there's in many ways, bringing it back to games, like that's a games are essentially like structured encounters with from someone else's perspective. They're asked to step into their role, navigate in their sh constraints, feel someone's stakes. Um and what happens is like something that's felt foreign starts to feel familiar. Right, right. You realize when you recognize emotions that we all feel fear, hope, love. Yeah, yeah. You know, even though the circumstances may be different. So I don't know. I feel yeah, so I feel like stranger is like it's less a fixed, like a fixed state, yeah, yeah, but an invitation. Like to slow down and to listen.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there are some really um powerful things that you've that you've dropped, less less a fixed state. Um, the idea of stranger as potential, and then this phrasing, which I use curiosity a lot, but I have never thought of a stranger as this sort of moving from assumption to curiosity. I just think that's really beautiful. Um, I'm also a people person. I'm also also extraordinarily extroverted. My daughters joke with me that I would, you know, I'll I'll like literally talk to anybody. And I think it is this drive to just break down the sort of the barriers that keep us from knowing each other.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I um I realize, you know, if I'm the mood to put myself out there, I may not be an extrovert all the time. I don't know if I'm an introverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert, but in those moments, and and often it happens when I'm traveling, because I do travel quite a bit. But even if I'm, you know, it happens in New York City or in different places, and I ask, you know, an Uber driver, which is like a confined space, right? We're together for a while, where they're from and how long they've lived here and what do they like it in the city? It just opens up like all of a sudden they become a storyteller, right? And so that's another way to look at it. It's like an invitation to become a storyteller. And I will sit there, you know, yeah and wrap it, you know. I am just, I love it. I love hearing these stories. And you're right, I probably will not see this person again. But I've got a glimpse into someone else's life and and I've and I um I feel privileged to have heard their story.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, me too. Me too. And you take that, you take that knowledge, I think, of a of a man from Somalia that I met when I was on a trip to Seattle and a story he told me about working on the fisher boats um out in the Pacific Northwest. And I I mean, some of the details that he shared in our 20-minute ride in from the airport to the city, I mean, I will never forget like what an impact he had on my understanding of that industry and the safety concerns and what a brave sort of post it is, and what an unusual, you know, just all of it. Exactly what you've said, like just how that moment of of connection can really leave an indelible mark on your life to come. Really beautiful. Well, my last question, um, I we don't know each other all that well, Susanna, but we obviously have gotten, we we've discovered some things that we have in common. Um, I love food, I love breaking bread together. I love, as you said earlier, sort of the creating a party, um, a sense of belonging and people feeling included. So um I always ask if you were hosting your dream dinner party, uh, what would you serve? And you can tell me who you would invite as well, but I'm really interested in what would the spread be for that dream dinner party? Sourcing price, not a not a question. We've got it all figured out.

SPEAKER_01

That's so funny. But this is such a good question. So really, really on you for it, good on you for coming up with it. So I was thinking about this, and for me, I mean, I do have a type of food, but it's probably less about the the type than how it's served. So I love the idea of family style sharing. Yeah. You know, it could be tapas, it could be a Mediterranean-style meal. You know, I I try to avoid gluten. So let's say it's a gluten-free meal, um about, you know, roasted vegetables, shared plates, lots of flavors, fresh food, uh, lots of colors. Um, and and in that shared experience invites conversation, right? Rather than formality. And I just I love that at restaurants, I love that at home. Um, and it makes it feel like at home, right? You you maybe you can you can have that at a restaurant or a catered facility, but but it has that home feeling of how you were served food growing up, right? Yeah. In the US, right? That big bowl of mashed potatoes that you like, you know, making it right and makes its way around.

SPEAKER_00

I love just the idea of family style, right? Just passing bowls and we do taco nut at our house, and there's always a little bit of a tussle at the beginning, who's got what next to them. Um, and it really does just sort of there's a there's a physical element to the the table, but then also a real sense of emotional and and almost professional connection too in the table that you've described there. Um, if that comes together, I would love to be invited. Thank you for this. Thank you for for being so thoughtful in in your answers and in your considerations and for putting out so many like juicy morsels of words, like really just, and I want again the listener, we'll take some pull quotes, we'll remind people of of these emotions that a stranger is is sort of potential, that we're taking something from assumption to curiosity. You talked a lot about belonging and safe space and shared purpose. Um, just so much that motivates me, clearly motivates you. And it's just a real, a real honor to have this conversation with you for the podcast Not Really Strangers. So, Susanna, thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it, Suzanne. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks so much for listening. Your time is valuable, and it means a lot that you've chosen to spend it here. You can find today's show notes, including how to connect with today's guest, at unrefugees.org slash not really strangers. That's UNREFUGES.org slash not really strangers. While you're there, I hope you'll consider making a donation to the organization I lead, USA for UNHCR, to help us provide more support for refugees here in the U.S. and around the world. If this episode was impactful, please take a moment to review the show and share the episode with a friend or family member. This small action will help us have a much bigger impact. Thanks so much. Don't be a stranger.