The Dr. Doug Edge: Real Talk with Real Leaders
Across law, business, and finance, Dr. Doug Hirschhorn — advisor to the elite — goes beyond the surface to decode the strategies behind success. No scripts. No fluff. Just what works.
The Dr. Doug Edge: Real Talk with Real Leaders
Leadership, Growth, and Trust: A Conversation with Matt Jones, CEO of Sigma Defense
In this episode, I reconnect with Matt Jones, the CEO of Sigma Defense.
Matt and I first met a few years ago when my company was brought in to do a human capital assessment of Matt and his leadership team. From the very beginning, we connected on both a professional and personal level. It was clear he was a driven leader, willing to step outside his comfort zone to achieve ambitious goals. What stood out to me most was his open-minded, culturally focused approach to leadership.
In this conversation, we talk about how his leadership has evolved as his company has grown tenfold since that time. Matt opens up about what drives and motivates him, and he shares how he builds strong teams, makes tough decisions under pressure, and stays authentic during periods of rapid change.
We also dive into the role of vulnerability, why it’s not a weakness, but a core strength of effective leadership and how trust isn’t just a value, it’s the foundation for execution in complex, high-stakes environments.
Welcome to the Dr. Doug Edge Real Talk with Real Leaders. I'm Dr. Doug Hershorn, advisor to the elite. Looking back at my career, I realize I've met and worked with a lot of interesting and talented people. So I wanted to start a podcast where I could have a candid conversation with one of those people while giving everyone a chance to listen in. All of my guests share three things. Number one, they are either a personal friend or someone I've worked with in the past. Number two, they've achieved exceptional levels of success. Number three, and most important, I like them on a personal level. In this episode, I reconnect with Matt Jones, the CEO of Sigma Defense. Matt and I first met a few years ago when my company was brought in to do a human capital assessment of Matt and his leadership team. From the very beginning, we connected on both a professional and personal level. In this conversation, we talk about how his leadership has evolved as his company has grown tenfold since that time. Matt opens up about what drives and motivates him, and he shares how he builds strong teams, makes tough decisions under pressure, and stays authentic during periods of rapid change. We also dive into the role of vulnerability, why it's not a weakness, but a core strength of effective leadership. And how trust isn't just a value. It's the foundation for execution in complex, high-stakes environments. Matt, good to see you, man. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's great. We uh, you know, I I we hadn't spoken in probably, I don't know, might have been over a year when we hadn't connected in touch base. So it's nice to catch up with you. Um, I want to start off. So so just tell tell everybody what you do and what Sigma Defense is, what you guys do.
SPEAKER_01:I'm the CEO of Sigma Defense. It's a defense tech company supporting the Department of War. Uh, we autonomously connect people, data, and systems. So, really, it's all about how to sensors talk to shooters, how does drones relay video, how do you pass data across a battlefield in contested environments?
SPEAKER_00:Got it. I imagine that in today's unfortunately war linen war laden world, is it? I assume it's more active for you guys. You guys are busier than than a normal situation, a normal cadence of how life goes.
SPEAKER_01:I think uh, you know, I I like to say that uh war is an enduring need. Uh and so yeah, I mean, I I think you see uh peaks and valleys like you would in any business, but this tends to be sort of less cyclical. Um, are we in a period where there's more activity? Yes. Uh, but I think funding has been, you know, relatively flat uh for some period of time. So I think business stays strong, even though demand is higher, if you will, for the time being.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So we met, you you're you were an executive of a private equity fund that I did some work with, and we met you, they brought you on board as an operator. Uh we hit it off pretty quickly. Your wife, if I recall correctly, she was an executive coach at Was it Boeing? That's right. Right. And so you kind of got the whole concept. And I went in and did an assessment of the team. And, you know, most executives are like, oh, what's that guy doing here? And you were like, Yeah, let's bring it on. Hogan, let's do it. You know, you were very, you were very embracing of the concept. And I and I just, you know, we kind of on a personal level hit it off. It's one of, you know, the three criteria. I don't know if I explained this to you at the beginning, but the three criteria of people that I do these podcasts with, uh, because they're designed to be conversational. The first criteria is I have to have known or worked with them for for a period of time. Uh, and the second criteria is they've had they've had to achieve the a high level of success in their given career. And the third and and truthfully most important criteria is I gotta like them personally. Because if I don't like them, there's no conversation going on. I feel honored. Thank you. Oh, well, that's very that's very nice of you to say that you feel honored. So uh we hit it off. I did the assessment uh for your team, and then I don't know the exact cadence of time, but I remember you did an acquisition or it was a merger, two pretty big companies together. You were the CEO of both, and then I facilitated an off-site that's right for you all, right? Um and that was uh that was a great experience. A lot of military-backed people, if I remember correctly. That's right. And um a lot of people, I'd say set in their ways and how they think about things. Fair. And you as a leader, you come in and your job is to get everybody on the same page, right? And that was that was a big focus of it. I know we we did look at everyone's personality and through their Hogan data to to kind of understand differences and facilitate a bunch of conversations. It was a full day thing. What what is what motivates you? Like what is what is your why? What's your core motivation? What is it about?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I really think it starts with my upbringing, uh, you know, single parent family, my mom, dad not really in my life, always trying to sort of prove myself and and get my dad's approval, which really made me competitive and driven and kept me moving forward. Uh, and I think I kind of maybe in high school and early college, played, played soccer in college, majored in soccer, uh, which was a major my college didn't offer. And uh so that so that didn't last very long. And then ultimately joined the military. And and that's really where I got the discipline, which was kind of the last piece of the puzzle for me to, you know, start really achieving and bringing, I'll say, value to the world, if you will. And uh so from there, uh, I think after eight years in the military, when I finally separated in 2003, it was really about how do I, how do I give back? And I think a lot of people talk about servant leadership and serving others. Uh, you know, frankly, I think for me, it's more of a debt. Uh, it's it's more of a, I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for the military, the the leadership I learned there, the the positive influences and the discipline that that instilled in my life to go accomplish things. So I I really feel like I have a a debt to this country that I'm repaying.
SPEAKER_00:I that's uh pretty noble. I I didn't know about the the the father stuff. Not that this is a therapy session by any means, but I look for, you know, that that question I always ask. I always ask probably the first question I ask clients when I work with them individually is is, you know, what's your why, like your core motivation? Because most of my clients, it's not about the money anymore, right? They've they've reached a level of success where the money is more of like a way of keeping track or score or points or whatever it is. It's not about buying something new or or or um or having economic stability in their life, but understand the core motivation, like what drives them, what what pushes them. And so uh I'm gonna I'm gonna reach here without without even asking you or wanting you to go into the personal history behind it. But you know, that's a pretty deep thing is to have that motivation uh where it's you know proving yourself because that ties into it's never enough. You're always pushing. It's it's always, you know, it's not about uh, you know, you know, it's it's never maybe you might never achieve perfection, but you're always working towards the next whatever, the next level of intention. That's my life that you bring forward. Um the as a leader, do you, do you, do you feel that you do you put that same expectation on your on your team? Or is it just on yourself? Like how do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01:I I think it goes back and forth. You know, I I think that part of part of recognizing, right? It's one thing, I mean back up for a second. It's one thing to be driven for you know personal reasons and it's never enough. It's it's worse if you're not self-aware, right? If you don't, if you don't know that's your why. If if you know that's what's making you tit, then you can manage it and employ it in ways that are useful and appropriate. And so I I look at it and say, you know, are there times when I want um more and it's not enough from people? Uh sure, but it's never without um a recognition of what are reasonable expectations, what is somebody's realistic capability, you know, can this be done? And I think knowing who I am and knowing my why, that self-awareness allows me to be vulnerable. And and I would describe my leadership style as exceptionally transparent and and exceptionally uh vulnerable. And so for me, I think it's important everybody knows where they stand on the on the leadership team all of the time. And it's important that you push people to the to the degree that they can achieve, right? It's not fair to have unreasonable expectations of people.
SPEAKER_00:So there's a lot for me to think about there. So the couple of things that I I do want to talk to you about. One is the the one is about knowing expectations of someone's capabilities and when it's when you should think about trying to develop them versus that's just that's just the best they're gonna be and and they're not gonna cut anymore. But but before I talk about that and ask you about that, I wanna I want to touch on the vulnerability because I think I think that's a misunderstood concept about how important that is for leadership. And couldn't be uh, you know, I I see you shaking your head. The the downside of these podcasts is people can't see, can't see our facial expression. I realize that's why I was like, I agree. The upside is that that you know I get to see your facial expression to to talk about it. The so let's talk about the vulnerability. So you you said at first servant leadership, which is you know, kind of like everyone's heard that term and it's you know a bit overused of a buzzword of whether it's true or not, but that concept. But I think I think vulnerable leadership is is a really powerful way to think about leadership because from my perspective, when you allow yourself to be vulnerable, you become very real to people and and allows you to build rapport and trust pretty quickly without losing their confidence, right? So when you when you mentioned the word vulnerable as a leader, what what is that how you were thinking about it? Or was there more to it when you think about it?
SPEAKER_01:For 100%. I mean, I I say like leaders are not infallible. Um, everybody in the organization makes mistakes. I I I make them too. And I think there is this, it's it's actually really disappointing. And listen, I'm gonna rewind for a second. If I was gonna describe my leadership style, I would say it's transformational. I think I'm repaying a debt. I don't, I don't feel this like my whole life is to serve others. I feel like others serve me and now I'm repaying it. Um, but but the transformational piece is I look at many of the leaders today, and I think there's this expectation that they place on themselves. And and frankly, maybe the organization and the world puts on them that they're not allowed to make mistakes, that they can't do something wrong, that you're gonna get, I mean, people make mistakes every day. The question is, can you own them and learn from them? And I think my my company, uh, and my my employees, my team would all describe me as someone who owns it, right? When when I I say all the time, working at Sigma Defense is a bi-directional relationship. I expect the employees to do their jobs, to serve our customers, to deliver and on our commitments and do all the things that that any exceptional organization would want. I also expect my employees to hold me accountable for the promises I make, for the commitments I make to them. When I say I'm gonna do something, I do it and I expect to be held accountable for that. And there are times when things get in the way of that or things didn't go the way that I wanted to. And, you know, I'll tell you, I I I hold the town hall and I say, guys, I I I miss this one, right? Like I I own this and we're gonna we're gonna turn it around, we're gonna, we're gonna do this, and this is how we're gonna fix it. Um, you know, I I try to I try to not do that regularly, but I think vulnerability is is recognizing that everybody needs to do the best they can. And sometimes things don't go your way. And you gotta be truthful in that and you have to own it.
SPEAKER_00:So so let's go back to the to the first part of of the that thought, which was where I said about people investing in people and and understanding the capabilities. How do you think about whether it's worthwhile to to invest in developing someone versus you know, they they're just not gonna get it, they're not gonna cut it. Like, how do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01:You you you know, when in in many of our conversations, we bring them back to sports analogies, which I've been working on trying to avoid here. But but I I think to some degree it's like this. You you with the right, with the right attitude, with the right determination, with the right in sports athleticism, you can really play any position in any sport, right? I mean, it's it's interesting. Um, I played soccer all my life, as you know, played in college. Um, they the the the United States would probably be the world's greatest soccer nation in the world if our best athletes didn't play baseball, basketball, and football. So I I I look at that and say, you know, what is what is this person's desire? Right. There are many times where somebody gets a job in, let's just say in finance, and now they're in this job for 20 years and they don't really like it. Like, how far are they gonna go when they're not motivated, when they're not determined, when they don't have the skills? And maybe they really, really want to do HR. And are they gonna restart their career and go become a CHRO somewhere? You know, probably not, but but they could. And so to me, it's it's less about uh, does the person have the capability? And more about is the person willing to do what it takes to get there? And and that's that's what I measure, right? Is give people opportunity, give people stretched goals. And are you putting in the time, the effort? Are you working extra? Are you seeking mentorship? Are you asking for help? Are you delivering? I I think that goes a long way. Now, of course, certain times certain people, you know, maybe just don't have the the aptitude for it. And and I think you just gotta accept that and and be honest and tell somebody like, hey, this is this is kind of where you're gonna be. But I but I just believe in people. I believe that if you want something and you put the time and the effort in and you seek advice and counsel and mentorship, you can accomplish anything you want to. I mean, I'm I'm a testament to that. Like I'm an enlisted Navy guy running a, you know, coming up on half a billion dollar defense organization. Um, that didn't that didn't happen because uh people believed in me throughout my career. It was because I believed in me.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So, so that that's very helpful. So so now, so what I hear you saying is that people, if they if they're willing to commit to self-improvement, to development, to learn and growing coachability, uh effort, if they're willing to put the effort in, you think that they're worthwhile to continue to support and nurture and feed so they can grow? For sure. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So uh there's always exceptions to every rule, but yeah, generally.
SPEAKER_00:And then you're saying if look, if they don't have the aptitude or the horsepower to do it, then they just don't, right? So how do you figure out the very beginning, right? When you built out this this man, I remember your company. How how small was it when I first started?
SPEAKER_01:There were 120 people coming up on a thousand now?
SPEAKER_00:That was 120 people, right? And and the revenue was a 40 million, maybe 40 million. I was about to say 50 million. So 40 million, you turned into a half a billion to a 500 million dollar business. Dude, that's like in what five years?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, four and a half, four and a half years.
SPEAKER_00:Good job. Um, so the uh um, and it wasn't by luck, you know. It's it's it's obviously there's something there that that you're bringing to the table that's making that happen. The you had to build a team, right? I mean, aside from having to bring you've done a bunch of acquisitions and bringing on teams, but you've had to also build a team and surround yourself with the right people. So if the right people, the formula, if you're if your formula for the right person is someone who's who's gonna bust their ass, uh willing to invest in themselves, grow, learn, develop, evolve, be vulnerable, all those things we just talked about. How do you how do you how do you assess that when you're first meeting someone from from the beginning, you're interviewing someone for a senior position? How do you assess those things from the beginning?
SPEAKER_01:I I I mean, this is a cliche, but I I think getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is really important to me. And so in those conversations, I like to see how people, you know, not in any sort of like really overt way, but but like to see how people handle adversity. I like leadership teams, as you know, that argue. I I don't I don't believe it's a meeting if everybody agrees. Like that's not a meeting. That's just that's an organization that's on its way to failure, uh, where everybody thinks the same thing all the time. That kind of group think uh is a disaster. I like counter opinions, I like people who are confident, I like people who can handle being told they're wrong and reassess. I like people who like to speak their mind and then ultimately say, okay, well, it's not my call. I'm gonna get behind this. I don't agree with it, but I'm gonna get behind it. So I think that's those are the key things that I try to tease out as I'm building my team. Like, how is this person gonna handle a meeting where we're going in a direction they completely disagree with? Are they gonna sit there and say this is the greatest thing in the world? Let's go do it, Matt. We can't can't wait to get behind this and then leave and say Matt has no idea what he's doing. Or are they are they gonna raise their hand and say, hey, listen, boss, like here's the here's the 10 reasons why what you want to do is isn't gonna work. And maybe three of them are gonna change our path and make, you know, we might still go in that direction, but we might pivot, you know, five degrees instead of 180 degrees and and ultimately be successful. So to me, it's all about do you have the confidence to speak your mind? And can you handle uh those sort of uncomfortable meetings where people are arguing?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so so I get that. Like to me, that's okay, someone's someone's on your team already and they're floating around and you get to see them on the field. They get to see them play. I I'm asking you before they've stepped a foot on the field, they've played on some other team, right? You you heard they were good. Now you're meeting them. How do you how do you evaluate before you hire them if they're gonna be that type of person? Like what questions do you ask? Or is it an instinct you have? You know, what is it great question? You know, how do you figure that out?
SPEAKER_01:I'm glad you, I'm glad you followed up your first question with, or is that some instinct you have? Because I was like, what sort of prophetic response am I going to give about these questions I ask? There's no magic formula. I mean, to me, it's it's I've just I have been around people who are willing to speak their mind my whole life. And I've been in organizations where that's been the norm. And so I think you just you just get a sense. I mean, I want to make sure the person is proficient, that the person has a reason why they're doing this, that the person is excited about this opportunity, you know, all the sort of normal talent checklist things you would do. But but I like to just have situational questions, right? What what do you do if someone tells you you're completely wrong and they don't agree and they're not gonna get on board? How do you handle that?
SPEAKER_00:Um, those those are the sort of questions that I think um So So those are those are the academic questions, and they're gonna give you the answer. They're gonna give you what they think is the right answer. I mean, assuming they want the job, they're gonna give you some version of, you know, this is the right answer. You'd like to think, you'd like to think that they're gonna give you the answer that they believe to be true and view it as, well, if they don't like my answer, then that's the wrong company for you to work for anyway. I always tell you.
SPEAKER_01:It's about a core value, right? It's a it really comes down to somebody's core values. Like, how did they get where they are when I'm looking at them? And and what do they stand for, right? I mean, if you so I believe our ethos is uh really a myopic focus on the warfighter. Um, we probably 65% of our population are veterans. It's kind of like our solutions and our defense tech is, you know, by veterans for vet for active duty, for future veterans. Um, I think it's about if if that's your ethos and you truly believe in that, then you would never agree to deliver some subpar solution. You would never agree to uh you know skip some step in testing. You would never agree to a shortcut. You would you would consistently advocate for the customer and make sure that everything we delivered aligned. And so I think that's the backbone upon which our organization is built. It's our ethos and it's what our leadership practice is.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So let me let me go, let me now cross the the the journeys of military versus versus healthy conflict or discussion, right? I didn't serve in the military, but I'm gonna make some assumptions here after knowing you and speaking to people that have served in the military. It's chain of command. Right? You're given an order, you're you're not your job isn't to question it, your job is to execute it. That's where you came, that's where you came from, right? That's your your military structure. Yet you're saying as a as a CEO, as an executive building teams, you encourage and want your people to argue. Those are your words. You said argue. You want them to have a discussion, you want them to argue. And because you feel, and I'm trying to recapping here, you're saying if they're not arguing, then it's not a meeting, and we're not really making progress. That doesn't make sense to me. Now I agree with you. That makes no sense. Okay. So talk to me, talk to me. Explain to me, explain to me how those two worlds mix. Are you saying that the military would have been much more efficient if if if it wasn't chain of command? Are you saying that that it works for the military, but not for the real life? Like where how do you put those two parts of your life together?
SPEAKER_01:Man, that is a really good question. Uh, one I haven't actually ever really probably thought about. I I would say that look, the military structure is in place for a reason, right? And and I don't, and I don't question how that works. It works exceptionally well. It worked well when I was there, um, and it continues to work well. Uh I just think, I think in organizations where you're, you know, you I suspect I feel like we're moving faster than the military. Uh, I think our our tech evolves much quicker. I think our solutions are being developed in like agile methodologies. We're testing there, there's a lot of things that are going on a lot quicker. We don't have these protracted delivery schedules that are multiple years to get to someplace, right? Where where that chain of command probably works much better. I think when you're rapidly delivering capability, you've got to be a lot more agile. Your organization has to reflect your your approach to development. And and so, yeah, I I I don't know why I went that direction, but I just I think I am drawn to things that work. I have seen this work exceptionally well. And uh I, you know, for sure, we don't, it's not like people who are directors or VPs in my organization don't have decision-making authority. I just think it's important to listen to all of the voices. There's so many, there's so many business cases you can read of somebody knew something wasn't right and didn't say it.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And and man, like those are those are missed opportunities in an organization that are that are culturally denied, right? It's the culture that denied that opportunity, not not the organizational construct.
SPEAKER_00:Do you typically hire people out of the military? Is that a common thing?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think 60 plus percent of our organization is is veteran. So yeah, we certainly we certainly love to have veterans, but we also recognize that if we're you know doing some cutting edge software development thing that we're oftentimes doing, that that person is less likely to have uh developed that skill set in the military than than college.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So I was asking that question more along the lines of so if you have people that are trained in the military where chain of command, do you I would imagine it's probably difficult to get them to now question, now have a voice to question something and to speak up. I would imagine I'm guessing that that's well, I mean, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I I mean, I mean, because just so in the last several years, um no, this year's different, at least what I've seen so far, but military recruiting um has has struggled. And and there's a lot of reasons for that, right? Um, but but I I I would submit that one of them is today's younger generation isn't interested in a chain of command uh organization. They they want to have a voice. And I think as we consider the the the youth coming into this workforce, like they want to have a voice, they want to be heard, they want to feel like they're part of something bigger. And and if you have an organization where you can, and cater is not the right word, but if your culture uh believes in that, I think you attract some really incredible people that that you might otherwise not get. And that doesn't mean that every every organizational alignment of work works for every organization. I just think, you know, why I was so grateful to have you join us and and you were amazing supporting us, um, is I really believe that culture drives everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I know, I know you're a a buyer and a believer in that. And it wasn't just you were saying the right things. It was, it was you, I could tell by the way you were you engaged in the room. Uh, you know, you allowed yourself right off the bat to be vulnerable as just another person in the room, not the CEO who was, you know, this great oracle of information or knowledge in the corner of the room. You actually um you made it a very comfortable environment and quite frankly, easy for me to facilitate because you you set the tone for those conversations to happen for for and and if you know if you remember, it was like people were were being were able to be critical of each other. They were able to kind of now talk about what it is that they you know they were having difficulty with that person. And instead of talking about that person in third person, we had them engaged directly, you know, in front of everyone. It was like having that, you know, radical candor. It was radical candor, it sure was. Um the uh pivot pivot a little bit here. I want to talk about your growth. So, what what's some of the best advice you've ever been given? And and who is it from?
SPEAKER_01:I was on a plane of San Diego about six years ago, and I was sitting next to Jen. I was on an aisle, he was on an aisle, and he was wearing a Tuskegee Airman jacket and a hat. And I was on my way to a defense trade show, and I was just sort of like kept looking over at him. I don't, I don't know. I had some, I just felt drawn to this guy. And as we were landing, I said to him, I asked him if he was actually, you know, if he was a he said yes. Um, he was actually in a state of the union. I'm I'm I think he'd be he became a general. Um, Charles McGean, I think was was his name off the top of my head. And he I asked him, I said, what is one literally in the aisle getting off the plane? I said, what is one piece of advice you would give throughout your career? And he looked at me, put his hand on my shoulder, and he said, you know, treat others as you wish to be treated. And I I mean, it was six years ago, eight years ago, or something like that. But but I'll say I I sort of reflected on that as okay, that's it's just so basic. But it's kind of how I've lived my life. And it's kind of how I've I've built organizations. Um, and so I I think if you Live by that. Um, man, like, do I want to know where I stand in in the organization with my board and and my my sponsor? I do all the time, right? So I expect that people want to know where they stand with me, right? Do I do I want to get told the truth? Yeah, I do. Like, so I tell the truth. Do I want to be treated with respect? I do. So I think if you if you treat others the way you wish to be treated, like the rest of the organization just kind of falls in line. It's it's so simple, but I think it's kind of like blocking and tackling that sometimes gets lost in the fanciness of business books.
SPEAKER_00:All right. I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna ask the question that I probably swore I wouldn't ask, but I fuck it. I'm gonna ask it anyway. You're a PE backed company. Let's go there. Let's talk about it. Um, what's the best part about being a PE backed company and what's the hardest part about it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. No, so I'm kidding. The the I think the best part is the opportunity to learn and and tie in the finance world. As a professional operator, uh, I I think I'm I think professional operators who are good are good at growing businesses, pulling cultures together, creating value, all the all those sort of things. But but I think it's it's been fun for me to learn sort of the banking industry and how do you get money and and and all those deal constructs and all that. Um the challenging part of it is I think it depends on your sponsor, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I'm very fortunate. My sponsor um backs me, backs my approach. Uh, and I and so I think they believe in the investing in the culture, they believe in the way I deploy capital. They like, and we're getting outsized returns because of that, right? Right. But I think there are a lot of sponsors who are just sort of Excel driven, they're coin operated, right? And if you have a coin operated sponsor and no no offense to those, there's a model that works. But look, a lot of these guys have a playbook and they okay, this is what we do. We buy this, we buy this, we arbitrage that, and we we sell this thing. Like, I mean, that that's a recipe to make money. That's not a recipe to build businesses and have fun. Um, I I I want to do something transformational. I want to change how the DOD operates. I want to deliver incredible capability, and that takes more than just financial engineering.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I I I'm gonna go. I mean, I haven't obviously know you know the know the sponsor in this situation very well. Uh know that knew them a lot longer than I than I've known you. But I will tell you that, and this is interesting, my job, I get to see both sides. I get to see everyone's cards, which is really a gift. It really is a wonderful thing to be able to be. Because at the end of the day, my job is I want everybody at the table to win, right? So, you know, and if I get to see everyone's cards, then I can help make that happen in some fashion. The I'll I'll give you my I'll I'll give you my opinion about about that. Um, and what I think is is unique about you. Uh yes, they I think as a sponsor, they they let you be you, I think is is what is important. And and I think that from the very beginning, you know, you were this was the first, this was your first shot at a company, wasn't it? Your first time you're running a company on your own. Was it your first no, first private equity backed. First private equity backed. Um, but it was a it was a 40 million dollar company that they had aspirations to grow. Um, and there were gonna be acquisitions. It was gonna be a lot of stuff you might not have done, and certainly not at the scale you'd ever done it before. Like that's a for sure. So it was a lot of first time, first time experiences. I remember the sponsor saying to me, you had kind of like that X factor or that it factor, because he he's made a living out of kind of having that instinct. Doesn't really have a playbook, he has an instinct about people.
SPEAKER_01:That's why we work so well together.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it is. And and I remember him saying to me when he asked me to do the assessment, he described you and the team. He's like, This guy's different, he's special, he's got he's got something, he's a real operator, you know, all the stuff that you've described yourself, he he saw in that mold of clay. And then I would say probably the best thing that could have been done is they just got out of your way, man. They just they they put the guidelines, the guardrails in, right? But then just get out of your way and let you run. And you know, when you when you when you have a thoroughbred that that can run races, you got to give it, you got to give it room, you know. And and I think they do a very good job of giving you a wide enough berth that you can kick when you get when you're gonna kick, and but they know you're gonna go in that direction, and and then they're just hold on for the ride. Uh that that is unique. And I think you're you're right, you're spot on that not all sponsors will do that. A lot more of them are controlling, they feel like they have to control the situation or the executive, tell the executive how to do their job. Uh, and and quite frankly, because I see both sides of the cards, the executives, the the the mature seasoned ones will smile through it and behind the scenes they'll motherfuck it. And and that's unhealthy. You know, it you can feel you can that's the difference between maybe getting a 5x return, uh, you know, and a 15x return is probably that that little difference, right? Um, or a 2x return and a 10x, whatever it is, that that multiplier effect. It's if more sponsors realize set it and forget it, man. Just get it, get it to a place, be there, be like the be like the safety net for the trapeze artists. You know, they know you're there, but kind of just stay out of sight and out of their way, right? That that's you know, do what you do best. And that's a health, that's a healthy dynamic.
SPEAKER_01:It's been a it's been a fantastic relationship. And you know, I I oftentimes think about uh no offense to all of many of my friends who are CEOs with other sponsors who operate differently. You know, I I could never be the person who's robotic, you know.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, you would it would it'd be like, I don't know, you die on the vine, man. It's like you wouldn't, you you you wouldn't, you would do you'd show up and do your job, right? Because you're a professional, but there would be no, there would be no the passion wouldn't be there for it. Uh the joy wouldn't be there for it. And you're transparent enough that if you're not having fun, uh it's obvious.
SPEAKER_01:I think my sponsor would say sometimes I'm too transparent.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's probably that's probably accurate, but I think that's that's it's a good relationship building, right?
SPEAKER_01:You always know where you are.
SPEAKER_00:I like you. I like you because I'm the same way. You know, I'm told all the time I I say too much, I give too much away, and I view it as you know what? The good, you know, yeah, I probably do give too much away sometimes with my vulnerability, but what it does is man, it it builds some really deep roots in relationships with people. Totally does because vulnerability, going back to that, it it's not, I don't view it as making myself weak. I view it as being intellectually honest with what I can and can't do, where I've been, where I've not been. And and then to me, that's an empowerment. It it it's validating, and then it also shows that it's okay to to to not have all the answers and to work through it, but but to know that you're smart enough to figure shit out if you got to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01:And and then, you know, and I think it also depends on what's your it always starts with like what's your goal, right? I mean, if you're if your goal is to build, and I'll use, I'll use my industry. If you're if your goal is to build a defense contracting company that looks like 50 other defense contracting companies that pretends you have cornered the market on human capital and you got the best and brightest people, even though everyone who works for you used to work for some large strategic. And so it's not really true. If that's your goal and get a small return, I I think you can you can do whatever you want to do to get there. If your goal is to like change the way the Department of War operates and insert tech and and impact future mission sets, uh you got to operate differently.
SPEAKER_00:Who who are your heroes? I guess inspirations.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I think it's I think it's you know, to me, it's it's I don't really know that I have a hero. I think I have models. Okay and and I I would say it's it's people I've met throughout my life who are just hardworking. You know, there's there's something about sort of the grit and the and the determination that it takes, you know, every day to show up to a job and and do it that just inspires me. I mean, I'm there's not a single day I wake up where I'm I'm not like shocked that I'm a CEO, right? That I, you know, have this incredible opportunity to positively impact, you know, my employees, the world, uh, the department of war. But but at the end of the day, like we we all got to go to work. And and I think that's my inspiration, is like, you know, sort of the lunch pail leader. Like, you want to show up, you want to put the hours in, you you, you gotta look at the people who are really doing the work and look at them as your inspiration. I mean, I I say all the time, I'm the only person in Sigma Defense who works for everyone. And I and I and I and I believe that, right? There isn't a day I wake up where I don't, I don't believe that every single person in that company is counting on me to make good decisions, to lead them, to do the right thing. And that is an enormous responsibility that I don't take lightly. They're they're my inspiration, right? They're they're the people doing the work. Uh and I'm the person who, you know, they have gotten behind to carry the torch forward. And I don't, I just I put such great importance in that. Uh, that it's they're my heroes, like the people, the people who are doing the work. And and I and I did that at one time, right? But now, I mean, I'm like the chief email officer, right? I get on town halls and I talk to banks and I go on LinkedIn. Like my I mean, my job's hard, a big responsibility, but there's a there's there's people working harder than I am.
SPEAKER_00:The uh so I'm reflecting as you're talking, I'm reflecting back on on some parts of the beginning of our conversation where about motivation and and where that that drive comes from and that self-imposed. It's self-imposed. Desire, need to push or to to be held accountable, which is what you're talking about here, to be held accountable by your thousand employees. So you're not not letting them down, while also simultaneously proving to yourself the success, you know, that you'll be successful, which is probably why you wake up every day saying, you know, I I I can't believe I'm here, like I'm this guy doing this. And that's the that's that's where those two emotions start to to come out in the journey. I'm gonna re I'm a Star Trek fan, so I'll reference there was uh one. I don't know if you've watched Star Trek ever, but there was there was a one of the one of the movies, it was talking about uh uh how pain is a motivator, is essentially what it came down to. And there was this character that could remove your pain. And and uh, you know, Bill Shatner says, I don't want you to take my pain, I need it. I need it because it's it makes me me. It makes I think about that concept a lot. And I think about how that that is a fuel and a catalyst. Uh, and and I think it's a very important one. I I kind of think there's a there's a balance there between having a healthy life and and carrying a good amount of pain and burden with you, so that you you can stay energized, focused, committed, you know.
SPEAKER_01:There's a there's a there's a there's a joke about when you're hiring someone for sales, right? That if the person shows up in um an old rusty car, they're not a fit. You want you want the sales guy that bought the car he can't afford, right? You want the guy, you want the guy who's levered uh and needs to make big sales. And so, you know, I I think that's the you know, like, hey, how much this guy makes? Why is he gonna Lamborghini? Like, he can't swing that. That's the dude you want, right? He's the grinder. So uh, you know, no, I I think it's I think it's totally true. You know, I I mean to think of you know, going back to my dad for a second, like I think the greatest gift he ever gave me was you know a whole bunch of self-doubt and a whole bunch of like I'm gonna work the rest of my life to prove myself. Like it's a it's a it's a gift.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, it's a gift, it's a painful gift. Uh you know, I I I my my my upbringing on paper, you know, looks golden, but when you go under the surface, my dad's a very, very strong personality, he's a very successful uh criminal trial attorney, strong personality, huge ego, you know, terrifying presence when you're a little kid, kind of thing. And you know, you you always want to, you're like proof trying to prove yourself. And then you get to a stage in life you're like, that's like you know, I really have to prove anything to anybody, but it's so it's like in your DNA.
SPEAKER_01:It's a lingering doubt, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's that lingering doubt of I'm I'm never good enough. And uh you have to, you know, you can have you can have a very miserable life if you can't, if you can't get a little bit past that and over on the on the top end of that. And quite, you know, I know you're I know you're married, you got uh a family. I'm sure it's the same for you. My wife is the is the you know, was was the glue that got me over that piece to to to be able to have a healthy, good life and be a good father and and a and a and a husband also while carrying all that pain that I need. I I need to have it with me. I don't want to get rid of it. I need it because it because it drives me to do things. People ask me about this podcast, they're like, Why are you doing this? I'm like, because it's fun. Like I have to have a reason. I'm not trying to be Joe Rogan. Like, I really don't give a shit. I like talking to people, and I thought to myself, I get to meet some really interesting people that that others don't get uh opportunities to have conversations with or or learn about. Um, and so I thought it'd be fun. If anything, it's just fun for me to have conversation even with you to be able to talk about things that we wouldn't normally talk about when we just catch up every once in a while.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe this is the start of your Joe Rogan podcast. Like maybe this one will be so popular that it launches you into.
SPEAKER_00:You know what? But it's not interesting to me. It's really it's it's so not interesting to me to have to deal with that part. Like, I'm not I'm an introvert, like I don't I wouldn't enjoy having to be always the formula would be broken. Like, I'm not gonna have someone on who just wrote a book. You know, I'm gonna have people on that I like, and I have a limited ecosystem that I've worked with and like.
SPEAKER_01:It's one I started with. I'm honored that you had me on because I know how discriminating you are.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, I like that was easy, and uh and and you you were an easy pick on the formula. Um, that's good. And I know you can I know you you're you've you've got a lot, you've got a lot of things to say, and you can and you articulate them really well too. Um, just a couple more things I want I wanted to kick through with you. Uh what are some mistakes you see your peers make, other other CEOs, similar-sized companies? What are some mistakes you see them make?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I I just reject the status quo. Like that, I mean, that's just if I was gonna describe like how I operate, it's okay, here's the situation, what would everyone else do?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And and then, okay, and what if I didn't do that? What if I did the exact opposite? What would that cost? And that's right, that's my starting point, is to do what no one has done before and see what happens. Um now, that doesn't mean I always do that. So I I think if if you again, I think getting getting typical results requires standard decision making. And and I think a lot of my peers do that. You know, there's this is how you do it, handle it this way. Um, so I think that's one uh I think a lack of confidence in the organization, like making bigger bets. I I think for me, uh, and maybe my I think my sponsor sometimes is like people say this about me. They say, like, Matt's never met a deal he didn't like.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like that's that's that's a that's a statement someone said about me. And I'm like, you know why? Because I just believe that I can make every deal work. Right. And and so like, is it the greatest? Is this the greatest company? Like, I I I bet you I can I bet you I can get you a pretty good return with this thing. Like I just see the value in it. So I I think um maybe that's too far for my peers, but I I think there's a lack of placing bets, right? You want to limp into something and just think it's gonna catch on and catch fire. And and that's not that doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_00:No, you you you've actually described something pretty interesting. Uh I was talking to another friend of mine, Dave Shulman, who's uh an executive uh at a at a publicly traded company and he runs a large team globally. And he was talking about the speech, it's they're they're a brand, they're a brand company is what they deal with. Um, and he was talking, he's a car guy, and he was talking about the the presentation he's giving to his team about leaning into it. That he wants people like and he and use car racing as an example. Like in car racing, not that I know a lot about car racing, but it's about weight distribution in the car. And you have to lean into the situations where your instincts might want to pull back. And his point to people is like, you know, I want people that will lean into it. I want people that will will go for it, you know, and know that fine line between spinning out of control. Uh, but I'd rather have you lean into it and risk spinning out of control versus holding back. And it's probably the same thing for skiing. Anyone that skis, it's like the way you hurt yourself is by leaning back. You actually have to lean down the mountain. That goes against, you know, instincts. And I think you're right. I think it's it's risk aversion, some form of risk aversion that uh many CEOs experience. They might be good managers, but they're not willing, but they're afraid to lean in. And maybe because their sponsor will, you know, hold them back, or because they're just not intuitively a risk taker. But that is you said some really compelling things there, Matt, which I'm sure you realized it and you said it, but I'm just gonna pick through it a little bit more because it's really powerful. You've you on the outside, you're just doing deals, but what you really know is you believe in yourself. What you're really saying is I can turn a mediocre company with my great management abilities and natural and blah, blah, blah. I can transform that. You know, if they've got something that works, I can make the team around it better. And and whatever I don't know, I'll figure it out. That's exactly right. That's exactly it, man. I could tell when you were saying I'm like, fuck that, that's that's fucking genius.
SPEAKER_01:And it's I think I wrote a I wrote a blog recently and I said, you know, I I'm never layup, right? Like open court, I'm dunking the ball a hundred percent of the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. When that that is that's it has so many parallel. I mean, you know, my my world crosses over also to the hedge fund space. And you know, when you when you talked about the sales guy that you look for who's got the car you can't afford, I'm telling you right now, my favorite portfolio manager is the one that's like flying on airplanes on private jets, but I know he he can't afford it. You know, that's the guy I want, right? Because that guy will do anything, like he'll he'll put himself out there to change the behaviors to keep that lifestyle up. The guy that's got 50 million in the bank or 100 million in the bank, it's like, you know, it's getting hard.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna go cut the grass.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like because when it gets hard, you know, it's it's very rare that they'll keep on pushing, keep on pushing. They just most people don't have that tiger woods. I call it that tiger woods thing, you know, where you just keep on improving even though you're you're already winning. Um, most people will play down to second place rather than keep on outperforming. It's just it's just it's hard to stay at that level of intensity, which now goes back to what you and I talk about. We need that pain. That pain, you know, doesn't let me stop. Years ago, my wife said to me, When is it ever enough? I looked at her like she's crazy. What do you mean? Like that's a thing, like is enough a thing. I don't even know what that means. Like, I just keep on pushing, I keep on doing. I because because I'm enjoying it. And the second I don't enjoy it, I'll do something else. Like, I'll but it it's always about uh pushing and and rediscovering and growing and learning. Where are you five years from now?
SPEAKER_01:Uh you know, and I'm I'm I'm at a stage right now where it's like one day at a time, you know. I mean, I think I think we're on well, the company's sold, right?
SPEAKER_00:Five years from now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, likely. And and you know, I I think we're on this incredible journey with this. This this company has been um really in like, like I said, an incredible journey. We're surrounded by great people, an amazing culture. We have, you know, cool, cool stat. We, as you know, I was a little bit late. We're closing another deal today. Um, this will be our sixth acquisition. And in every acquisition, the turnover in the in the acquired company went down. Like that should tell you something about the culture, right? The turnover is higher pre-acquisition than it is after the acquisition because our culture is so good, right? So, so like you know, I don't I don't know that you ever recreate what we've built at Sigma Defense. Um I I I'm I'm likely doing this again. You know, I I'm I I think I've I'm drawn to building business. You're young.
SPEAKER_00:How old are you not even 50 yet? How old are you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm four 40. I just turned 48.
SPEAKER_00:48.
SPEAKER_01:So I got a little, I got some runway ahead of me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But honestly, I I've thought about um going back into the government and and doing like a couple years in the government um and just seeing what I could accomplish there. Yeah, I got lots of things. I thought about going to law school just because I like to accomplish stuff. So who knows? Who knows what I'll do? I I know it'll be big and audacious, and I know I'll achieve it. I just don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm gonna I'm gonna be there to watch it for sure. Uh last question to wrap it up. You know, I know you've you've you've weaved in and out of this answer uh in a good way during all discussion today. But my last question would be what's your edge? What's the thing that gives you an advantage that makes you stand out among your peers? What do you what do you think it is?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I don't want to go back to my pain, so I'm I'm I'm I'm thinking for a second. I I I think it's my honesty.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I think I think honesty is really undervalued and oversold in the leadership in today's world. I I think the vast majority of leaders don't tell their companies and their employees the truth. And I think they think that that's okay and it doesn't matter. Uh and there is no one in my company who doesn't know exactly where I stand on things, exactly what our challenges are. I I think that honesty breeds loyalty, it breeds effort, it breeds motivation, and it creates a culture from the top that is unmatched by our peer group.
SPEAKER_00:Matt, thank you very much. This was this was great. Uh the you you really did a uh a phenomenal job of of thinking and articulating some some concepts that you know might seem very simple, but but you have you've you've put those ideas into action and congratulations on your continued success. It really is great. It's great, it's great to be to be an observer and to see you do all the points.
SPEAKER_01:And and and and honestly, thank you for all everything you did to you know get our organization off the ground and continue to support us. You've been an invaluable asset, and it's a pleasure uh to be here with you.
SPEAKER_00:You're welcome and you made it easy. Have a good day, Matt. I'll talk to you later.
SPEAKER_01:You too. Take care.