Episode 2 Worlds 2025 Recap

In this episode of the Jujitsu Crucible podcast, hosts Pat and Andre Porfirio recap the highlights of the 2025 World Jiu-Jitsu Championships. They discuss standout performances from various divisions, including the dominance of Mia in the light feather category, the rise of the Funegra sisters, and Larissa Diaz's inspiring journey to her second world title. The conversation also explores the tactical choices made by competitors, the impact of crowd energy on refereeing, and the challenges faced by athletes within the Jiu-Jitsu community. Andre shares insights on the evolving landscape of Jiu-Jitsu, the importance of team dynamics, and the inspiring story of Roosevelt Souza, who transitioned from selling water to becoming a world champion. The episode concludes with a discussion on the IBJJF's ruleset and suggestions for improvement.

Transcript

Pat (00:02.41)
All right, guys, we are back with the second episode of the Jujitsu Crucible podcast. It's going to be our 2025 Worlds recap and joining us all the way from Columbia, we have Andre Pifori. How are doing, Andre?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (00:19.427)
good, good, Pat. Had a tough day yesterday. Unfortunately, I missed the finals in life, but I couldn't watch online. I had to come here because I have a personal compromise tomorrow, but we really happy to be talking about it. I wish I was there to watch in person, but even online was crazy, man. I think one of the best tournaments from the last few years.

Pat (00:41.056)
All right, well, we're gonna basically go through and we have some time constraints and as the second episode of podcast, we're gonna be introducing an intro and an outro. Our second podcast is on video with a new software. So as I mentioned in the first podcast, we're always gonna be evolving the game. And talking about the results, starting with the Rooster Women.

I think there was absolutely zero surprise. We both called the Queen Maisa. And you know, one of the biggest surprises for me that fight was I thought Mary Anna put up an incredible fight.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (01:14.31)
No surprise.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (01:24.549)
No, Mariana is a very high level. I've been following her since she was a yellow belt. She's actually used to train with Maísa at Gracie Muay Thai in Rio. And I'm sure she looked up to Maísa a lot through her journey. And now she's having these world finals as a black belt with her. I'm sure it's such a pleasure to her. And the division was full like.

Like we did on the first podcast when we spoke about the match, this roster weight was surprisingly very high level and I got to watch some very good matches like Ana Lima against Lavinia Barbosa, Mariana against Lavinia and Maís against...

all the other girls to the other side, like very high level match, but Maisa is just one step ahead of everyone. She got her sixth world title and I'm sure she didn't stop right there. She's still gonna have a lot to come, a lot of world titles to, for her to put on her table, on her record.

Pat (02:20.074)
So I think, you know, arguably, Andre, one of the stories of the tournament was in the light feather. And we both took that risk and we both agreed in our first episode that if Mia got past her first fight, she would probably win the division. She did that in relative dominant fashion. And I think when

We look at AOJ, Andre, you we touched on it very briefly in the first episode. A lot of people from white belts to black belts have been very critical of AOJ, you know, recruiting high level all belts from blue, purple, brown, black. But I think Mia, you know, started at AOJ when she was seven or eight years old. She became world champion at every belt.

not Brown because she skipped it, but her sister Ashley picked up the Brown Belt World Title. And I just think for AOJ, this is the story that they really want to promote. Hey, we took a kid and we made her what she is. She is the youngest athlete to ever win the Black Belt IBGF World Title. What were your thoughts on her performance?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (03:41.992)
No, she did amazing. She had on her first fight Amanda Monteiro, Amanda Canuto now. Such a tough opponent, former world champion. And I got to watch the match and she completely dominated the whole match. I think it was 13-0 or 12-0, something like that. And after that match, I'm like, mm, gonna be really, really hard to stop her. Actually, the finals against Andressa.

Kirau surprised me, Andressa gave her, I think her toughest match of the event. And I think was more surprised with that than with Mia winning. Of course, she's a 17 years old, but her level, I got to watch her many times before and I knew it, she, we knew it. She would like be a really, really strong contender to get this title.

Pat (04:35.744)
Yeah, and like again, I think what I really like about the Funegr girls is, you know, they run a joint social media account. There's the twins, Ashley and Mia. They have a younger sister. I think her name is Natalie, if my memory serves correct. She's just, yeah, you know, so she's just as dominant. And the story I really like about the Funegr is they started at one gym.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (04:37.872)
Yeah.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (04:54.149)
Yes, she won the ball go to.

Pat (05:05.858)
They went white to black belt. You know, they're sponsored by Kings and I don't know if you got to see it, Andre, but Mia put out kind of like, I don't know what it's called, it's like where she's talking, but it's like a meme. It's like a song or I don't know what it is, but it was, I thought it was quite clever. And I think, you know, as someone who's been at every world championship for well in excess of 20 years.

and seeing so many athletes come up. I remember watching her professors win their first world titles. And I think Mia's doing it almost better because she's got a, like it was just a humorous video on Instagram, I'd encourage you to watch it after the podcast. And I just think that's what the next generation needs to see to be motivated. And I think if all the next generation kinda has that,

ANDRE PORFIRIO (05:43.868)
Mm-hmm.

Pat (06:05.236)
fun personality and that outward humbleness and I just think it speaks very well for the sport.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (06:13.083)
Right, I agree with that. And talking about the men's brothers, I forgot to talk about this a little bit. Like, of course, they get athletes from other things as well, but they built a lot of good champions. had Jessi... Tyna, Jessi Khan, that also from white to black with them, and she won a world title in the GEE. Zach Kyna, her husband...

Pat (06:29.656)
Kynan's an amazing example.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (06:39.473)
They didn't won in the GEE, but won World's No GEE already and won many other titles. And some, a bunch of other people, a bunch of other athletes, they're a high level and came from then. And Gili Arriman, Rafael, they're such amazing athletes. They used to be my favorite, especially Rafael, my favorite athlete when I started. And it's beautiful to see they're this amazing job as coaches as well.

Pat (07:05.058)
Yeah, I mean, they're they and what's funny is we've got a bunch more women fights to talk about it. know, let's face it, A.O.J. was without a doubt the dominant team in the women's division. You know, going to the feather, you know, we had Larissa, you know, winning. What were your thoughts on that?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (07:17.841)
Donovan.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (07:33.536)
Larissa being a black belt since 2017 or 18, I've been following her, think 18. I've been following her as a black belt a long time and she always been getting third here, third there, silver, third, silver, third. And last year she won PEN-M, she finally won a major event. She lost at the world, I she got third place as well. But this year she had amazing performance at Europeans. I think PEN-M, she won this year.

as well and now words, think is the title she was missing on her career. She trained with a Hedges Labrie in San Diego. They used to represent a Graciel Maita and now they're in AOGA as well with a Janaena Labrie that we're gonna talk about very soon. And her triangles, her close guard are great. Like her fight against Kasey Amora on the semi-finals or no quarter finals, semi-finals, semi-finals was one of the best.

fights of the event, think a very underrated match. Like, Cassia was attacking the whole time. She was able to score two points on the end and was able to hold. She had like, casting a very, very, very, very tight triangle where Cassia was able to get out. So this was amazing. Karol also very tough athlete. First year as a black belt competing on the highest level and already getting to the finals, but she was not able to hold the pressure of Larissa and.

Larissa was able to get with a beautiful triangle from out. Was very high level, very technical man.

Pat (09:04.628)
So going to the next match is, you know, you mentioned her is a Jenna Ena. She's down in the brackets of her maiden name, not LeBrie. But what were your thoughts on her performance?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (09:20.997)
Janaína been winning all the Grands Lan Tournaments this year, so when we saw the bracket, I was sure that she would be the favorite on that bracket. Of course, Luisa is always a very tough opponent, world champion, I think two or three times, and being on the game for so long. But Janaína is just, when it's on the person's ear, it's hard to hold. She been winning everything. She won Europeans, she won Pan Ams, I Brazilian Nationals as well.

And that was the only title she was missing and was a great performance. Like, Luisa, always tough, gave her a tough match. I think it was a two-point difference. I thought Luisa was retired last year and it's incredible how she came, got to come back and go to the World Finals once again. But Janaena deserves a lot.

Pat (10:12.332)
You know, one thing I will say, know, one of my missions, Andre, you on the Jujitsu Crucible podcast is, you know, there are so many of these polarizing and popular figures in Jujitsu, and I want to be able to discuss all aspects. You know, the good parts about the reputation, the bad parts, you know, even the rumors. We're not going to have a rumor mill podcast, but

I like to be able to discuss the pros and cons and I think it's important to be said. I don't have anything negative or bad to say about anybody, but as somebody that really kind of wants to peel the layers of the onion back and have a really good close look at the Jiu-Jitsu community in general, we're gonna talk about not everybody likes everybody. That's a part of Jiu-Jitsu.

There are politics at play. But one thing that I think Hafa and Gigi deserve further credit on, they did take in Janina and her husband is a very established black belt within the community. And obviously I'm not privy to the arrangement, but Janina went and she fought. She did not represent her husband's gym.

She fought from 4AOJ, which I understand because they're very competitive school. She's a rock star athlete, but her husband was the one in the corner coaching her. And you know, I thought, you know, again, props to Hoff and Gee for doing that because I believe it promotes a level of open-mindedness that may not have been present in the community five, 10, 15 years ago. What are your thoughts on that?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (11:48.901)
Yeah.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (12:07.655)
I think it was very cool, but I think it's also anything different than has just been on her corner and also Larissa's corner would be weird because they've been working together for so long and then like he knows her game better than anyone like they are together they are not only teacher and student they are also husband and wife so he knows her better than anyone so I think

Rafa and Guy are very professional and they understand this, they understand the game and I think it's very cool from their part.

Pat (12:44.888)
So going to the next division, we had Talita from Fatress fighting a very popular American in the finals in Elizabeth Clay. The first thing I would want to say is props to Elizabeth Clay to making it to the finals. She fought Bassanian the absolute and almost had her foot ripped off in like 30 seconds.

And she's amazing at defending the foot lock and to fight all the way to the finals against Talita, you know, as an American, as a patriotic American that, I was really hoping for Elizabeth to win. But what were your thoughts?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (13:29.063)
I was very happy that, of course, both of Atletes deserved a lot. Elizabeth fought the whole tournament with a broken foot, like literally a broken foot. But I think the story of Talita these last two years was amazing because last year she got to win Europeans, Brazilian Nationals, Pan Ams. And then at worst, that was her year to win. She got second place a couple of times.

Last year was her year to win. She lost, I think, on the first and the second round and she was so sad. Right after that, she had a really bad injury on her knee where she stopped for almost eight months, not training at all. Brazilian Nationals was her first tournament back and she lost too. She couldn't win. I think she don't even got a medal. So she came to this world with this belief, but at the same time, not on the read on, not winning everything like she was last year.

and she was able to go to the finals against Elizabeth, such a tough opponent, and got to manage to win. Very smart strategy, pulling, a global war on the beginning, scoring her the first advantage and playing with Elizabeth, trying to attack and her just like on top, creating base and being tough. man, Talita deserved it, like a couple.

Months ago I followed her and like a couple months ago she was with a broken knee and now she's with a worst cold medal as a black belt so it's beautiful to see completing the Grand Slam to her.

Pat (15:03.202)
So the next division, I really feel Yara was the favorite. And I think it's fair to say we were both cheering for our Orlando homegirl, Larissa Diaz.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (15:26.191)
No, we have the medium heavy before that, but Tamara Ferreira against Ingrid Alves.

Pat (15:30.267)
right. Okay.

Pat (15:35.276)
Yes, Ingrid had been in Orlando and stayed in Orlando before and she fought Tamera from Fratris with Tamera winning. What were your thoughts on that fight?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (15:46.77)
Tamara always been a very, very high level girl. She got to train with me when we was Blue Bells back at Cicero Costa. Then she traveled a little bit the world. She went to do art and then for atres. And now she's actually in Saudi Arabia coaching over there. And to be honest, this year was the best performance I ever seen from her. Like the finals was a little bit more...

with a little bit more strategy, but our, her older match was like to be meeting everyone and she was with that eye of the tiger, that will to win. So it was beautiful to see, like I was seeing a lion in the mess when every time she was stepping on that, was crazy.

Pat (16:33.812)
Okay, so in regards to the next fight with Larissa, you know, she ended up winning it. you know, I called her as the dark horse and I was happy I did. And, you know, she's doing an event for me next year up in Canada. So to have her second world title, what were your thoughts? Cause we, you know, we know her well. We've seen her in our gym. go to her gym sometimes.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (17:02.279)
No Larissa, I was feeling that this world title would come this year because she'd be competing in lot of opens and she'd be winning everything that would go, everything that would go. So the rhythm, when of course, when you're training hard and when you're doing the things right, the rhythm helps a lot, you know, and I felt she was with a good energy. We went to referee in Tampa another day.

Pat (17:12.014)
Cough

ANDRE PORFIRIO (17:27.663)
and she was there with me and we spoke about, she was like very calm and very relaxed about was not putting pressure on herself, was just going in, literally going to have fun and do her best and get her world title. And...

And it was beautiful to see her winning and beating Ada that is such a tough opponent too, like going down in weight. And I was very happy to let Lisa, she deserves a lot.

Pat (17:58.574)
Is it possible, Andre, that they can be a little quieter?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (18:05.265)
Lena, Lena, Lena, Lena.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (18:16.122)
Okay, okay.

Pat (18:17.516)
Yeah, I'll edit this out.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (18:19.111)
No, no.

Pat (18:22.06)
The next one, Andre, we have is obviously the super heavy. We saw a rematch of Brazilian Nationals. We saw Tyon versus Bassanha. Like, the one thing I got to say is I was just, I'm just going to say it. I'm not going to pull any punches. Like, I feel like Tyon has great jiu-jitsu.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (18:50.555)
Yeah, she's very good.

Pat (18:52.064)
And I I thought what we saw in these two matches at Worlds.

was a better version of like more of a Gabby Garcia. Like I thought it was like a very lay and pray double under, try to get advantage or explode around the pass. like fighting Gabby Passani as a woman, I understand. But like as a Jiu Jitsu fan, I understand as a coach, she wants to win. She wants to get the W. But I would have been so much happier to see her like go out on her shield.

Let's slap bump and roll and let's have a jiu-jitsu fight because you'll notice all of Tyen's matches with Pisani recently have been the same. Let's get under high double under. And I don't think it speaks well of her, especially when she has such great jiu-jitsu. What are your thoughts on the two fights that we saw?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (19:51.366)
It's hard to tell her to just throw her Jiu-Jitsu in there because Gabi Pessanha, like we spoke the last episode, like she had the best Jiu-Jitsu the women's division ever saw. And Tainy actually fought with Pessanha many, many times. And I'm sure on the past she fought putting her game and she probably lost. I know she beat Pessanha one time. The first time they fought she swept Pessanha with an omoplata and she was able to win.

But after the other fight, she lost, she lost, she lost, she she lost. And then at Brazilian Nationals, she was able to, playing this game, win the match. So I think she was just trying to do the same thing. She's like, oh, this is what works against her. So I'm just do what's necessary to win, because I wanted this world title. But I understand your point of view. But being an athlete, I know how hard it is to...

Pat (20:48.471)
You just wanna win.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (20:49.639)
You just wanna win. Of course, some athletes don't care. Like Mirigali, they just go, you don't care, you wanna perform. But some athletes, especially if you're fighting against someone like Pessanya that's so dominant, or Buchecha, or Mirigali, you wanna play the game the best way possible to be able to.

Pat (21:07.256)
So and then know, Bassania was able to score.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (21:12.129)
And then the first fight was Ryan the last couple seconds, right? The last 30 seconds.

Pat (21:16.268)
Yeah. And then, know, feel Basanya kind of changed her strategy in the second fight knowing and she ended up getting the finish.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (21:27.941)
Yes, The beginning was tough, still. It was not an easy match. But after she got to the back, then she was like, there she don't lose positions anymore. She's so good over there.

Pat (21:40.652)
Yeah, she is, I believe we can call Passagna a unicorn, like the best ever do it for the women, for sure. Yeah.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (21:48.146)
Ten more titles now. Ten more titles as a black belt. Besides the Bogota Brown, the Bogota Purple, the Bogota Juvenile Blue Belt. It's just...

Pat (21:57.76)
And I think the other thing that's notable is Tiani is 30, Bassani is 24.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (22:03.687)
Yes, yes. I think Tanya is even more, I'm not sure, but she may be even older. Tanya, was actually the Gabi Pessano of 2016, 2017. Then she had the problem with the doping and she couldn't compete for five years. And then when she came back, had Pessano her way.

Pat (22:15.928)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Pat (22:22.592)
Yeah, I just definitely think that,

There's a lot of world titles left for Pisegna.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (22:30.887)
Oh yeah, she's so young. Like if she don't retire early, then I don't think so, because she's making good money with that. Like this year she just won the ranking again and got $20,000. That for her in Brazil is a lot of money, you so no reason.

Pat (22:46.626)
Well, I mean, she made more from that. I found it interesting because she did a series of photos and when she came out for the photos, she was wearing her Air Force uniform. But she quickly put a tracksuit on for all the photos with the $20,000 check. Because, know, like, let's face it, that $20,000 is more than her annual salary from the Air Force.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (23:06.053)
Yeah

ANDRE PORFIRIO (23:12.679)
Oh yeah, that's a lot of plus, plus the money she made it winning weight and winning the absolute that I think she made another $20,000. So only on this tournament, she probably made like 40,000 or even more. I'm not sure how much is the absolute. I think it's even more. I don't think it's 10, I think it's like 20. She made like $50,000 only on this event.

Pat (23:18.732)
Yeah. Yeah.

Pat (23:34.552)
But you know, she seems like a pretty humble kid from Rio, so I'm sure she's in pretty good shape financially.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (23:37.029)
Yeah.

No, I'm sure, I'm sure about it.

Pat (23:42.926)
So rolling over to the men and it was super interesting because we go to the rooster and if I'm not mistaken, we did pick Taliesin and we ended up having Jalen win.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (24:04.369)
We did.

Pat (24:09.178)
over the GF team Carlos Alberto, what were your thoughts with this?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (24:13.339)
I was very surprised with Jalen. I saw him at Penhams and he got the gold over there. But that was the first time I ever saw him. I saw him train with Cabrinha, but before Penhams is here, I didn't actually knew him. I don't remember him on the color belts or anything. But man, I really liked his Jiu-Jitsu, very aggressive, very hungry, very confident. Bebeto was the current world champion when he won in 2024.

going against a former world champion, the champion from the last year, defending his title and fight the way he fought and being so dominant and also in the other matches he had before was crazy. His whole family was there, he was sitting right on the side of his crown. So was really cool to see this kid, like 19 years old, and like performing the way he did. I'm sure he will get a lot of these world titles too.

Pat (25:07.128)
So let me ask you, know, we've talked so much about dominant fighters and you know, again, about AOJ and we spoke about it specifically on the first podcast. Is living out in the middle of Byron Bay by himself? Has Taliesin lost the step?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (25:25.201)
Probably, because this is not the first year. Last year he lost on the first round to Andrew Suarez. Like we spoke the last episode and Andrew didn't even came at this word. And this year, like first round, I saw his first round, he was kind of too skinny and too drained. He was not looking good. He was able to meet on the end, but he was not looking good during the match. Second match he fought a little better. Then on the third match he already lost to...

don't record exactly with whole tally song loss. But to Jalen? To Jalen, yeah. Yeah, I think it lost to Jalen, Yeah, like being the owner of a gym, such a big gym like he is now and being so far without people to train, I'm sure is always a hard mission.

Pat (25:59.394)
Well, either lost, I think it was either, yeah, de Jalen.

Pat (26:19.982)
So, let me just ask you while we close this out. Just a fun prediction. Will Taliesin win another world title?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (26:31.175)
I think it's very possible. Taliesin's still very young. He's probably 23, 24, maximum. So he still has a lot of years to make it happen. He's very good, you know? If you do the camp, maybe a little bit longer, if he focus a little bit more. And he's right there, he got 30s, not like way too far. And the division, like Jalen is very good, but I'm sure he can beat. And Bebeto's also older, like 30, 31. He's gonna retire soon. I'm sure Taliesin can get another.

worth it.

Pat (27:03.672)
So in the light feather, we had the battle, no surprise here at all. We had the battle of the Diego's and you know, coming down to the decision. What were your thoughts?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (27:18.094)
Man, we knew it. This match would be the one that would happen. It was crazy to see this match. Diogo pushed the pace the whole match. He was winning by one advantage from the double Whirlpool. But it's impressive how Pato never gives up. Always trying to attack, always finding the way. I heard something from a big friend in the past. said, like, champions always find the way.

That's true, like he just found a way with Diogo, such a smart opponent and blocking out his lapel. He was not able to get to his footlocks. He was not able to get to sweeps or anything. And then like we put in close regard and did like a straight and breath from close regard. That's not something that you see often from Pato. I know I got to train with him for many years. So I know he does this, but in tournaments I don't see him doing this many times. And he was able to hit that on Diogo and.

He the advantage that gave him the win, so it was pretty cool to see that.

Pat (28:20.93)
So if you were gonna quantify it for people when we go to feather, kind of on that scale of one to 10, with João beating Mayhem, how big of an upset?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (28:35.515)
I think that's a nine. I'll say a nine. I know how good João is. When I was a juvenile, João was the best juvenile in the world. I even told you that the other day when we was talking about the Hanzo's division. João Mendes, was the best juvenile. made the Grands Lan as a juvenile one. He made the Grands Lan as a juvenile two. And then he went to the Aloe division, straight purple. He got...

second at words I'm pretty sure. Or maybe one, I think he won at purple. And then after he kind of disappeared a little bit, he lost the brown belt words twice, then he got third twice. As a black belt he lost many years. And people wasn't even thinking about him as a contender to win. He was I think the number 27 on the rank for example. But I knew his potential, I knew how good he was because I've been following him a long time.

since the juvenile times and it was beautiful to see him fighting the way he used to fight back in the day and like hungry and confident and in shape. Many other tournaments I saw him competing. The last few years I saw he was like kind of out of shape, know, only 100%. But this time, like since the first round, like I saw him fighting against Marcos Mendes, it was a crazy match.

He has another really, really good match on the first round that I forgot, I think it was against Thiago Macedo. He fought really, really well. man, but even then surprised me a lot, him beating Mayhunt, because Mayhunt is such an amazing fighter. But these words, Mayhunt had a very hard time, not only on the finals, but also in all the other matches he had before. Every fight was very tough for him. I heard, I don't know if it's true that he was injured, but going towards.

Pat (30:21.183)
Every fight, yeah.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (30:28.487)
doing a tough training camp for that, no one's gonna be 100%, so no excuse.

Pat (30:34.178)
What were your thoughts of another young American superstar, Cole and Mayhem?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (30:41.009)
That was a very good match. would love to see Cole working a little bit more on his stand-up game and also a little bit more on his passing, because I feel this is what's missing him on the big fights. But Cole's amazing, and I'm sure his time will come. He's high level.

Pat (31:01.634)
So going to the next one for me personally.

I thought for sure it was the biggest tactical mistake of the worlds. Like I literally was horrified. And the reason I was so horrified is I've been lucky enough to be with my son, be at Atos. And the bulk of the classes that I've been at Atos were taught by Andy and Rolando.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (31:20.123)
Yeah, nice fun.

Pat (31:40.352)
And these two kids are just, they're just gentlemen. I don't profess to know them well. I don't claim to know them well, but they're very inviting. They speak to my son using his first name when he's there. They teach a great class. They'll train with the visitors. And Andy's always a bridesmaid. He's never, you know, he's always second. And I just, wanted him to win so bad.

and I just kind of felt like he must've had a mental meltdown. As an experienced competitor, Andre, when you look at that, what do you make of it?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (32:09.073)
sober.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (32:19.739)
Man, I was so sad, so sad with this match because I really, really want Andy to win. is, like you say, such an amazing person and amazing athlete, even better athlete. He had a really good tournament. He was submitting everyone on his way. Matheus had some really, really tough matches. My buddy Robinho.

completely dominated the fight on the same. He was able to score two points on the beginning that gave him the fight. So on my mind, I was sure that he would win. And this was exactly what was happening. what happened on there, like I understand Andy mindset, but was too risky to do that, you know. Even if they didn't gave the points to Matheus Gabriel and he ended up winning the fight, would be too risky because

Matheus Gabriel, in my opinion, I still don't know what I would give on that situation if I was a referee. I watched the situation a lot. I was watching over and over again. And I, on my mind, on my thought, I would give only one advantage to Matheus Gabriel because he was kind of out of the ground with his butt out of the ground already for a while. So I was not considering a guard anymore. Then Andy Pouls...

Pat (33:45.742)
.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (33:45.81)
to close and then he sit together. So I was, in my opinion, that was a double guard pull and then he come up, I would give the advantage, but I understand why the referee gave the two as well. But I don't understand why Andy commit to such a big risk position. Even if he got it, it would be a big risk of give two points to Matheus. And he could be just on top.

It could be, don't think Matheus would be able to sweep him. He had two advantages ahead. Even if Matheus almost got the sweep on the end, that's what normally happens in fights like this, would be only one advantage and he would win the match anyways. Even if it was two advantage, let's say Matheus Gabriel almost swept, almost took the back, I'm pretty sure and could win on the referee decision because he was attacking most of the match. So I'm just sad, man. Like four silver medals at worst.

as a black crowd, I don't think I ever seen something like this in three different divisions.

Pat (34:47.116)
Hodger Gracie and the Absolute. It's different, but it's a lot.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (34:50.471)
He got a bunch of silver medals too.

Pat (34:54.998)
Well, he lost to Zonji twice and a Jacare twice on the absolute. The other thing to that I wanted to ask you and I want you to try to Andre, I want you to try to answer it in three different ways, please. There is so much rumbling from the crowd and complaints. We saw it on the Murasaki match with the two points and you know,

I understand the IBJJF might have the best of intentions, but how many times in a critical or exciting match do you hear the referee stops and he's like, and then, and then, like Andre, you're an athlete, you are a coach and you're a huge fan. So break it down and a referee. And this is like as someone who's been at the worlds, as I said, every year consecutively,

ANDRE PORFIRIO (35:35.675)
my gosh.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (35:42.959)
And referee too. And IBJ Jeffery referee too.

Pat (35:53.582)
So 2004, I really believe this is taking away a lot from the sport.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (36:01.745)
Yeah, I don't go to referee with Devar yet, but I think this Devar is just making the referees guess even more because before that, he'll have to decide on the moment, just like what he actually thought, even if he was wrong on the older people's interpretation, but at least on his heart, on his mind, he'll be like, no, man, I saw that, that's what I saw. But now, like, even when they see something that

they're kind of sure about it, but they not 100%, they ask for the bar. So the fight stop and then break the rhythm of the match. And then sometimes that guy that is already dead, very tired, he's able to recover, he's able to breathe and he's able to rest. So I didn't actually like it too much. Like maybe in some fights we put this, but, or make better, put better cameras, put their.

but a better system to be able to work better. But the way that it's happening.

Pat (37:03.574)
I think one of the complaints is when he calls for the mic, I understand they gotta re-watch the video, but sometimes, Andre, it's minutes. And they need to be able to streamline that quicker.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (37:18.727)
or stop the match, stop the match and then they check because what happened in Andy's against Matheus, the fight was happening and then took like two minutes with the fight happening, that would be two minutes that maybe if Andy was attacking, he would pass. So it was two minutes with the fight happening and they gave the two and then they took out the two and then they gave the two again, like what? Like they cannot do that.

Pat (37:28.11)
Continue.

Pat (37:42.318)
Yeah, and that can really distract the athlete from the strategy.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (37:46.92)
100 % or make the athlete do a strategy that he's not supposed to do because instead of winning, now two minutes later, he's losing. Like he lost two minutes stalling, maybe in two minutes that he could be attacking. So like, make no sense.

Pat (38:03.722)
Okay, so going to the middleweight, I thought we just had, you know, arguably another unicorn shake a couple years of bad luck. Let's face it, like, you know, like the last couple years, you know, Jansen fought a great tactical final, but quite boring. Then the DQ with Low, again, I think it was signed a suspect, but...

But you know, we saw the return of now the three time champion, Tynan Dulpra. He just literally seems to step ahead. What are your thoughts?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (38:42.225)
Yeah, I think here it was no surprises. Tyron just did what he does. So pretty much completely dominated everyone. Like props to Orlando that gave him a hard match in the beginning, but Tyron always ahead, always with two points lead. But I think here, no much surprise. Just Tyron being tight and just doing his thing.

Pat (39:08.278)
Yeah, so going to, you know, the medium heavy, we had a replay.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (39:18.065)
That was a crazy match.

Pat (39:19.662)
I thought this was probably the best match of the finals in my mind.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (39:30.085)
Maybe. Maybe.

Pat (39:30.092)
You know, and the reason is because, you know, I'm a bit biased. I like Berguinha. My son has done multiple privates with Berguinha. I like his game. And then the other thing is, even though he lost, I thought Berguinha really, really showed the art of a champion. I mean, he had Jenson on his back for like four or five minutes.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (39:56.102)
Man, I was so impressive with his back defense. Like, my gosh. I had a moment where Johnson was on his back with a tight Ezekiel and he was like, his whole face was purple, like about to explode. And this guy so calm, just wasn't able to fight to get out and like put back in half and Johnson was not able to put the hooks in like four or five minutes. So that was insane. Like this show like.

how good breaking your arm in all aspects, like, or passing guard or playing guard or defending himself is just like amazing. He had a moment where he almost defending the back got to a new bar or got to a foot lock after, but Jansen did a really smart fight and really tough. What a monster is Jansen, like he's being in a role that like I can even understand, like this guy is just never gets tired, never get tired. All his other matches.

Pat (40:53.004)
He reminds me of a- he really reminds me of a young Jacques de Souza.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (40:58.095)
Yes, like so strong, so physical, so like the cardio is like unbelievable. Like he had a really tough match in the quarter finals against Paulo Merlin that made a very tactical match. But like even Paulo after like seven, eight minutes he got tired and ended up being submitted by Jansen. And Jansen never gets tired and never, never stop. He also had a really tough match on the second match against.

Elder from Almeida, almost, almost managed to win the fight by one advantage, but in the end, too, again, like with the guy getting tired and he's just keeping the pace, keeping the pace, keeping the pace, he was able to get the sub as well. So amazing, amazing by Jermtso.

Pat (41:42.67)
One thing I just want to give out a shout to Briginha. You know, he's been around. He's multiple time world champion. There seems to be a rumor he might be moving back to Brazil. So like, I don't know. I'm not sure how many years, know, Louisa retired. She came back this year. You know, I don't know how many more years Briginha is going to do it. But one honorable mention I'd like to give to Briginha. I find he is very stereotyped into this.

heavy guard passing pressure. Very in a similar way that Hedolfo used to be referred to as this prolific guard passer. But I believe both in Hedolfo's case as well as Breguinha's case, they both had amazing guards, just so underrated, they could do it everywhere. But they just got put in this little box. What do you think about that?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (42:32.571)
Yes.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (42:36.239)
I agree even another day I was watching 2012 World's Quarterfinals against Rodolfo against Buchecha. And then Rodolfo was able to sweep Buchecha with so many different ways. Spider guard, axe guard, blue and bolo. And then a lot of people just reminds him by his amazing pass, course. Passing and having to up pressure. But Braguinha, man.

his back defense, his leg attacks now that he never got to attack the legs before and now he's so complete that even foot locks, knee bars, he's been able to apply. Like no one, no one passed his guard, no one. Like Jansen got close, imagine Jansen on your north-south and he was able to fight against and recover. So this just shows how complete and how technical Breguien is.

Pat (43:28.61)
So.

Next, you know, we're at the heavyweight division. We both called Adam to win. You know, I thought, you know, I thought Pedro could have done well. Pedro had a decent tournament. The one thing I found funny was, because I was at the pyramid and so many people were shocked when he put the belt in the center after he won. And I was shocked that they were shocked because he's 34 years old.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (43:37.051)
Yes.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (44:00.231)
Yeah.

Pat (44:01.036)
That's old to be two years in a row on the World Final. What do you think?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (44:05.679)
I think a lot of people don't even know that he been trying for so long. He made a post the other day and like he been trying since 2017 as a black belt, know. He lost first round, he lost second round, first round, second round, first round. So he finally won already older, right? And he was so dominant. But I think school he retired like on the top, you know, because maybe with more time.

Other guys will come up and like gonna have harder match. But it was beautiful to see his journey and winning the Grandsland, now winning Worlds again. And he deserved it, man. It's crazy because in 2023, I was on the same bracket as him. We were supposed to make the first round at Pan Ams 2023. I ended up not fighting. I had an injury, ended up not fighting. And then he went to the finals against Philippe Angel where he was losing by nine zero.

and he was able to turn back and beat Filipe Ando by 11-9. And then after that, something changed on this guy's mind. Like after that, he just became a different beast and started to perform. Like, I don't know, his confidence grow so much and started to perform in a completely different way, making the Grand Slam, winning his first world title, now his second world title. So, like a lot of respect to Adam that brought the...

the butterfly guard back to the game, right? After so many years, no one was playing this. And now he just like proves that it's still very effective if you actually really good at it.

Pat (45:44.276)
One thing I would, you know, this is just my two cents. It's only my opinion, but as a fan and as a coach and as someone that makes my living just from Jiu-Jitsu, I would encourage people when Adam went out there and he put the belt in the center of the mat, I think that's something that's super special and super meaningful. But I do think if you do that, you should honor it because like, for me, it's so sad to see such a great champion.

like Luisa Montero do that last year, come back this year then lose, not leave on top. And what do you think about that, Roger?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (46:22.151)
But how did that too? In 2016 he left his belt and in 2017 he was there again. And I think Lovato did that and came back again.

Pat (46:29.164)
Yeah.

Yeah, people have done it. And I just, I think it takes away from an incredibly special moment in my mind.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (46:40.615)
Yeah, I think if they're not sure if they wanna retire, they should just don't say anything. Yeah, just don't do it. Like, no problem. They are already legend, nothing gonna change.

Pat (46:44.333)
Don't.

Pat (46:52.096)
Okay, so going to the next division, I thought we had like just a really cool match. I think it's like, you know, again, I think it's a Cinderella story of Jiu-Jitsu. you know, it wasn't American that I was hoping could pull an upset, but, know, I think this would have been the biggest upset of the tournament.

But what'd you think of Nolan and Muniz?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (47:24.923)
Man, Muniz, like, I think very similar to Tainan. Just Muniz doing his thing. He winning everything, last year won the absolute. Waited an absolute, he closed out with his brother. And this year, we wait an absolute again. So dominant, like no one even get close to be in. Think the guys to be in would be Vitor Hugo, Miragali, maybe Kaina. But these guys are not competing in the GEE for now. But so.

Like he has no competition. I don't even look at him back. like, I'm not even close to be able to be in. And I think this final was more about Nolan, leaving him with him losing like the kids very young, 20 years old, American. He's half Brazilian. His mom is Brazilian. I him when he was, I don't know, 2016. He was a little kid, trained at Braz, so I used to stay at his gym when I came to Pennant for the first time. And his professor is such an arty man.

like one of the biggest Jiu-Jitsu narrative ever, man. It's American guy, Don Lukehart. He just built the IBU-JF rankings that we so addicted. And it's really cool to see he always been telling us that he would make a black belt world champion from scratch. And now after this year of Nolan, second year as a black belt already, winning in Panama, second in Brazilian nationals, just losing to the best guy in there, and second in awards, just losing to the best guy in there. I'm sure these kids will make this happen.

He's a beast. He's so good.

Pat (48:57.206)
So going over to the ultra heavy Again, you know, you're an immigrant Andre to the United States. I'm an immigrant to the United States I came from Canada, you know again now an American you're Brazilian that's getting very close to your American citizenship You know, we call you know It's referred to as the American dream where this is the land of opportunity But I believe Andre

that Jiu Jitsu has that same ability almost like America. When we have this random kid from Brazil who I called him Waterboy for years, become a world champion. So, you you had the privilege to know Roosevelt better than many people. And you know, you were the guy, because we were considering him, bringing him at one point and he was a...

ANDRE PORFIRIO (49:39.825)
Yeah.

Pat (49:55.82)
Random kid selling water on the street in Brazil. Why don't you tell the viewers the story of Roosevelt Waterboy Souza.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (50:04.327)
So Roosevelt, started to get kind of older. I he started at 19. He used to be a volleyball player. And he started older and I remember he has a white belt back in Brazil, has a blue belt and started to win, losing some, winning some. Always very tough, really good foot locks, very good guard. Like a big guy that could be a small guy, things like bring ball or grab right, this type of stuff. And as a brown belt,

One of his posts got viralized on the internet when he made this post holding a box full of water bottles and he was selling a water bottle saying, help athlete to be a world champion. He was selling waters on the sign-off. And after this post viralized, think Romulo Barral gave him the opportunity to pay his ticket to come towards, he ended up losing first round to Victor Hugo.

and he stayed with Romulo a little bit, couple months, then Romulo decided not to have a competition team anymore. But on this mid time, he was able to meet Cyberg and Cyberg ended up talking to Romulo and bringing Roosevelt to five sports. And that was kind of the same, a little bit before, but kind of the same time that I got to five sports as well. So we got to be roommates for like a couple years. And Roosevelt man is such nice.

human being, know, very good man, like hard worker, God believer. Man, I have nothing to say, nothing bad to say about Roosevelt. Always been a great man. Like I learned a lot about him. was, I'm kind of younger than him. I'm 27, he's 30, 31. So he's older than me. So I learned a lot with him about be a man, only be a responsible kid. like this year was a very tough year for him, I'm sure, because right after ADCC last year.

He left five sports. So I know how it felt because I did the same thing. like he was this whole year since he left five sports, not actually having very tough training or anything. But I feel he reconnect himself, reconnect, he reconnect with his old self. I feel what, when he was at five sports, I got to see this from close. He was my roommate.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (52:29.937)
He was training with me every single day. I think he, a lot of times he was trying to be someone he was actually not. I'm talking about Jiu Jitsu, right? On the mat. He was trying to play a game that was not his game. He was trying to impress someone that he should not be trying to impress because he was already good doing Wairida. And when he left, I felt he reconnect with his old self, with that old Ruzel, the water boy.

And this year watching his fights, even the absolute where he lost to Cantareira, that's the same guy he beat in the same finals, I saw he was trying to be himself. I saw he was not trying to do crazy take downs and pressure pass, explosive. That's not his game. He was not trying to do that. He was trying to pull, play his guard, maybe get a foot, maybe get a back or sweep and go from there. And this year I saw he's doing this and I'm like, man, Roosevelt is different this year. He was not in his best shape. I already saw him in a much better shape. was even.

kind of overweight to what he actually are when he's in shape. But just throwing his Jiu-Jitsu, he was just being himself. And I was so happy. think for me that was the best finals. Maybe because I know him, this made this got on me, but the fight was actually amazing too. And good thing back that such a tough opponent, never easy mission. But I think that was the champion that was the happiest.

to see winning and the way he won was so beautiful. His old coach, the coach that used to be his coach when he started Jiu as a white belt, Auzi that nowadays lives in Abu Dhabi and she's over there. He was on his corner, so it was really cool to see that as well. I met both together when Ruzo was a white belt back in 2015. man, such a cool story for him.

Pat (54:19.19)
And not also, I think it's worth mentioning, not also did he beat Gutenberg. He ended Gutenberg's day with that.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (54:29.767)
Yeah, it's curious how these last two years, both of the absolute finalists lost on the finals of third division by, Gutemar didn't lost by foot lock, but like completely broke his foot in a foot lock, and Janssen in last year also broke his foot on the foot lock, and Eric, when he's in two years in a row, could win his gold off the absolute, no problem. Just going there, getting his medal and that's it.

You

Pat (54:59.586)
So one thing, Andre, I wanted to ask, because we're gonna wrap this up in the next couple minutes, but I noticed this, is everybody over time has had complaints with the inconsistency of the IBJJF refereeing. As a referee, a coach, an athlete, I know you've heard of this. And we saw Gutenberg.

win one match via his opponent being disqualified. And you know, there's rumblings in the pyramid. I don't know if you got to see that fight, but there was much worse cases of stalling. And when you're there refereeing, because AOJ has this massive, you know, cheering section as an example, you know,

Do you feel the crowd and the energy and the yelling? What kind of impact can that have on the refereeing in your opinion?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (56:05.723)
Being a referee that I got to ref even Penn Am's black belt finals, example, words never because I was always competing, but Penn Am's, had one time that I was injury and I was able to ref the finals and also world masters, a bunch of other tournaments, big tournaments, I was able to ref the black belt finals. actually impact a lot. if the ref, especially if the ref don't have a good mindset.

On my mind when I was there to ref, I always had this strong belief that I would just be honest with myself. would not try to help someone or anything or try to give the victory to this guy just because his crown's bigger. I tried only to be right with myself. And I'm sure some other referees are like this, but some others not. Some others I'm sure feel the pressure, especially if the referee is a guy who never been a fighter.

Like, of course he trains Jiu he's a black belt, but it's not like, never be a fighter. He's not a guy that people respect out of the moment where he's a referee. I think he can fuse this harder than, for example, Tanquinho when he was a referee or myself when I was a referee or, I don't know, so many great referees we have that been great fighters as well. Or even someone that never been a great fighter but is a good referee like, Pedro Panos' brother, Rodrigo.

or Rico, but I'm sure like being there and feeling this pressure, the crowd kind of affect a lot, especially if you're strong-minded at the moment.

Pat (57:47.64)
So my last question for the day, Andre, and I'll let you get back to your stuff. If you had one suggestion for the IBJJF to improve the world championships, what would it be?

ANDRE PORFIRIO (58:07.281)
That's a good question. Yes, give yours. Give yours first.

Pat (58:09.048)
Can I give you mine?

So I was so excited because as I said, and I'm super proud and I take every opportunity to say it, I've been every year since 2004. And when I looked at the schedule Saturday night, it said the absolute final would go at 3.30. It went out at around 5.45, 5.50. So they were two and a half hours late.

And I understand that they're trying to bring a level of credit and prestige. But what happens is, Andre, you have the match, it's over. And then half the fighters run, they jump into the crowd, they're celebrating with their team. And the IPJJF makes everybody on flow and everybody in the pyramid wait through that celebration. Then they call everybody to the podium.

and they announce everybody, they give the flowers, they give the medals, and that part of the day adds hours to the day. So as a suggestion, why do they have to stop everything? Why can't they, it's like at the Olympics, during the podium ceremonies, the camera just cuts and they're on another event or another activity, and then they can go back to the podium shot, but I really feel

because of people running and jumping into the crowd and going bananas, it really damages the flow of the last day of the finals. And I mean, I'm just pointing out to the IBGF, they blew their schedule by almost three hours.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (59:53.416)
I agree, I agree with that. Don't bother me too much to be honest. The last day, most of the people are there just for that, so I don't think it's a big deal. Never bothers me. But if this happens and they do just the podium ceremony in the end, like Olympic Games, I think we'll be fine as well. But besides the ruleset, man, to be honest, I love the FGF ruleset. A lot of people complain, like, oh, I hope they take that advantage out, or I think they put a six-minute match.

I being very honest, I like the rule set of course, is the rule set was not every time gonna be perfect, but nothing's perfect on this life, right? Nothing's perfect. And I think what they should do is just train better the referees, see this bar situation if it's actually happening, actually helping or not, and keep or take it off depending of the...

the results of the search to see if they are doing a better work now or before. But the rules I like, I like 10 minutes match. Like if you are black belt, you understand that you need to wear out your opponent, especially in the highest level. If you want a shorter match, we have a AGP that is a five minutes match to everyone.

I kind of prefer much better the IBGF with the 10 minutes match where you can see more coming backs and more like strategy. I like the strategy game. Some people don't like, some people prefer just submission. But I think more about like some people like, some people don't. We see, we normally see the people who post complaining, but how many other people don't complain?

Pat (01:01:31.63)
Yeah, and mean, at the end of the day, nobody's doing it better than the IBGF.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (01:01:36.123)
Yeah, yeah, like to be honest this year I saw some posts like, the awards are done, like it's shit. Like for me this year man was better than all the last four or five years I've been. So I really, really like it this year. I don't know if I was more connected to the event this year. I was very focused. I mean, we got there Sunday, no, Saturday we got there. 9 a.m. we left. I don't know. You left a little earlier, but I left after.

Pat (01:02:04.236)
I laughed at sex.

ANDRE PORFIRIO (01:02:05.595)
Yeah, I left after the last match of the purple belt. Absolutely. I was watching Felipe Goulart, the light federate, winning the absolute against such big guys. like, wow. That was like 8 p.m. I was there since, like 12 hours, just there like. And I had such a great time. I wish I could be there on the finals, but I had a great time. And this year for me was much cooler than even the older years that had passed.

Pat (01:02:32.812)
Well, Andre, I would like you get back to things. This was our second episode, our recap of the 2025 World Championship, and we'll see you guys on the mats. Thanks.