R.A.V.E - Episode 5 - The 4 Disciplines of AV Series: Part 4 - What You Need to Know About Rigging

This episode is the 4th in a 4-part series called The 4 Disciplines of AV. Part 4 is all about rigging, or, more specifically, what you need to know about rigging.  This series is not meant to be comprehensive, but instead consider it a checklist for all the concepts you need to start mastering to become competent in this discipline of audiovisual work.  If you have specific questions or you would like to receive a free written transcript of this broadcast, please feel free to email me at ravethepodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

2025_0703_1743

Stephen: [00:00:00] Hello, my fellow humans. Welcome back to Rave, the podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Verner, where we are training tomorrow's AV professionals with excellence and integrity nevertheless let's dive right in. This is the fifth episode. I can't believe we are already to episode number five.

That doesn't seem like much of a milestone, but I did reference this statistic in my last one, and I would like to reference that again in case you're just joining us that I recently learned. That there are about 5 million podcasts worldwide, and about 50% of those podcasts only have three episodes available.

Now that we're to that fifth episode, we are well above the three episode mark. So we are in the top 50% of podcasts in the [00:01:00] world. In this fifth episode, this is actually the fourth and last part of what I'm calling the the four disciplines of av. And again, full disclosure we're moving from areas of strength to areas of weakness in my abilities as a technical director and production manager.

But we're not going to be fearful to talk about it. One of the things that I've learned. Is to lean into people around you that have a greater knowledge in certain areas. Again, this series is not meant to be comprehensive, it's just meant to take, beginners and intermediate AV professionals and introduce you to the basic concepts that you need to be deep diving into on your own.

Today we're gonna talk about what you need to know about stage rigging. I have a friend, a good friend of mine who is a professional stage rigger. He actually does [00:02:00] arena rigging and he has tremendous courage to get up high and work and do what he does. And I've learned a good bit from him.

And hopefully we'll have an opportunity to interview him and to bring him onto the podcast at a later time. But let's dive into some of the essential. Aspects and knowledge about stage rigging.

So the first aspect we will talk about is the harness. riggers need to wear a harness to be able to climb infrastructure and to get up to where they need to do their work. So there's lots of different types of harnesses. Stage riggers aren't the only ones who wear harnesses and they're used a lot in construction and there's a lot of different types.

Needless to say. If you're gonna go into this business, you need to be buying your own harness. Never trust any equipment that anyone gives you or provides for you. The stumbling on my words here. [00:03:00] Sorry about that. One of the signs of a really good rigger is that they will. Come well equipped and that also they're gonna be very skeptical of any equipment that's given to them.

And they're going to put it through its paces before they use it if they use it at all. And so Harness is probably one of the first purchases you're gonna make if you plan to become. Professional rigor. So the, some of the aspects of that harness is it's gonna be multi-point. So it's gonna, wrap around your legs, come through the crotch area, it's gonna probably be five point, it's gonna come together.

In the center of your chest, you're gonna have a couple of what they call D-rings to where you can clip in lanyards. And it has a certain amount of fall arrest. So as you're. Falling. If you have the unfortunate pleasure, not pleasure of event of falling that lanyard has to have break points that break as it goes.

Because if your [00:04:00] body was to absorb the full shock all at one time, it would kill you or cause massive injuries to your body. And there's a lot of standards that have been set in this industry. I think about six feet is about as far as someone can fall and absorb that blow from even one the best of fall arrest lanyards.

And even then, you've only got. A certain amount of time before one, your coworkers needs to come, rescue before you can die or, sustain massive injuries to your body. Sorry not to get dark and morbid, but there is a great risk to those who work in the rafters above us. Switching a little bit from that aspect of rigging to a more theatrical style of rigging is in theaters like the one where I'm technical director, we have what's called single purchase counterweight system where there's a system of pulleys and arbors and different things where we're [00:05:00] hanging things on battens or bars.

And there's cables attach and they go up and over and they run across pulleys so that the operator of what's called the hand line can pull that item in and out. And it may be something as simple like a banner or a screen, but a lot of times in theater it's gonna be what we call a drop that's painted to look like, scenery.

And we basically have two different types that we talk about. We talk about single purchase and double purchase. And there's a lot of aspects that you can get deep into the weeds on these systems. But suffice it to say that the differences between the two is in a single purchase counterweight system. For every one pound of weight or one unit of weight you put on the bar or the batten, you gotta put an equal amount onto the arbor, which is what holds the weight and counterbalances that bar. To be able to have a mechanical advantage, to be able to lift that item up without [00:06:00] a whole lot of strength in a double purchase situation, you actually have to have.

double the amount of weight on the arbor to equal one unit of weight on the bar. So if you put one pound on the bar, you have to put two pounds on the arbor I. And that has the do with the amount of travel sometimes, single with single purchase systems. They have a higher roof line, so the cable can travel further, and so there doesn't have to be as much weight on that bar.

In the single purchase system, just some aspects of it. It's the arbor and the Batten move the same distance vertically. So if I move I wanna move the Batten one foot, I'm gonna have to move the arbor one foot. In a double purchase system the arbor moves half the distance. So if the Batten needs to move 10 feet, the arbor isn't only gonna move five [00:07:00] feet.

And that's why we have to double the weight. And the reason we would use a double purchase system over a single purchase system, again, is the space requirements. So a double purchase system, it reduces the vertical space needed for the arbor, and it makes it suitable for, certain venues that have limited fly space overhead.

So that's just a little bit about the differences between single purchase and double purchase systems. But these are normally permanently installed systems that are designed specific to the needs of that performance venue. In a theater like the one where I work,

we have 24 line sets. And so some of those battens are what we call open and there's nothing hanging on those bars. And those are the ones that we can allow our presenters to use. And then other line sets are already in use, and so they would have maybe our soft goods on it, like our mid stage traveler or, our [00:08:00] main act curtain that comes in are our border curtains, sometimes called teaser curtains that hang in front of our electrics, which are the bars that have electricity running to 'em that we can hang stage lights on, so on and so forth. And that's, very typical. And depending on how the theater is run sometimes those.

Things get changed out a lot and sometimes they're more we'll call a rep plot where things stay pretty much static from show to show. So that's just a little bit about counterweight rigging in a theater. Now that we've opened that area up, I want to talk a little bit about the correct order in which we're going to weight a bar and take weight off of a bar and, so I'm using a little Google AI to help me stay on point here. So that little pause was so that I could get to the right tab here on my phone. When we're loading and unloading a [00:09:00] Batten we have the greatest opportunity for injury because one, either the Batten or the bar itself is gonna be lighter or heavier than the arbor and vice versa. And whenever we have a system out of balance, either that bar can fly away. If the arbor is too heavy and that arbor's gonna come crashing down with all those weights on it, or the bar is going to be too heavy and that bar is gonna come crashing into the floor and causing injury or death to the people on the stage.

Using the correct loading order is very important and this is an essential knowledge. If you're gonna be a stagehand, you need to listen to those that are in charge. And do what they're telling you to do because it could mean the difference between your life or losing a hand or a foot or something like that.

As we talk about the correct order, the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna prep the system, right? We're gonna send the [00:10:00] loading crew up to the loading gallery where all the weights are, and that's overhead near the top of the system. And the flyman. Or operator is gonna, yell heads up and they're gonna lower that empty batten all the way to the stage floor or to where it trims out.

Most time the bar doesn't go all the way to the floor. Most time it hovers some feet above the floor where you're, it's comfortable working. And you're gonna have your locking rail and so you're gonna lock that rope in place. We use a device called a Buddy. It's just a safety device where you pull the two ropes together and it cinch the ropes together.

And it further locks that line set in place while we're loading and unloading the loading rail the break there is not really meant to hold more than about 50 pounds out of weight. And there's a reason for that. So then the flyman is the person in charge of this whole process.

They're gonna [00:11:00] give permission to the deck crew or the stage hands to begin to hang things on the bar, whatever that may be. Lighting, instruments, scenery whatever it is. And so the crew's gonna begin to load the bar and put, whether it's lighting instruments again, or a stage drop or something like that.

In more sophisticated situations, there's gonna be line set scheduled that's sent out in advance of the show. And the flyman or the tech director's gonna get that and they're gonna know exactly, let's say we're loading line set 10 with a drop, and they're gonna know that drop weighs 200 pounds and you're in a single purchase system.

And the Flyman is gonna be able to tell their loaders how much counterweight exactly to put on that bar before that drop even gets tied onto that bar. But sometimes we're doing a little bit of guesswork. We have to, account for the weight of the pipe itself or the Batten.

And so we know that, schedule 40 two and a half, two and a half inch pipe [00:12:00] is roughly close to three pounds per linear foot, give or take. So we can use that and then we have to take the weight average weight of the item and we can give the loaders a good idea of how much weight they're gonna put on there.

So anyway that process happens where we're loading the bar again it's safetied off with that buddy. And then after the Batten is loaded, that Flyman is gonna estimate the weight like I just talked about. And the loading crew is going to get ready to drop the weights at that point is very important that the flyman or the tech director is gonna.

Tell all the stage hands to move to the opposite side of the stage away from where the loading is taking place. Very rarely does this happen. It's never happened in the theater where I'm the tech director, but weights can get dropped and you don't want a 20 or 40 pound piece of steel coming at your head.

That's a battle you're gonna lose. So for safety, they're gonna get everybody on the [00:13:00] stage crew to the opposite side of the stage, and then they're gonna holler up to the loaders to begin the loading process. And in rare occasions they might say, let's load a hundred pounds. But most of the time we're gonna use shorthand like we do in almost every type of job that we do.

Is they call it out in number of bricks. So they might say, head need four full bricks in a half, or, put five half bricks on there or whatever. And. In general a full brick's, roughly about 40 pounds and a half brick is about 20 pounds. And for my theater, knowing how long the battens are about 32 feet, what they weigh the drops that I've hung on there, we're gonna counterweight with some piping in the bottom.

Of the pocket of that drop so that it hangs nice and taunt. Altogether maybe 70, 80 pounds. I might call up, or the fly operator might call up and say, Hey, put two full bricks on there. And so again, stage hands are moved off to the opposite side. The fly [00:14:00] operator gets outta the way the loaders go to work.

They, the arbor at that point is the device where all the weights are loaded onto the go up and down the system, the glide system. And so they're gonna load the weights, they're gonna put that spreader plate back on there to keep those weights in place. And then when they're done with that, they're gonna call down to the flyman and then they're gonna say, clear the Batten and they're gonna take the buddy off and do a test.

So they're basically looking to make sure that the system is in equilibrium. So if there's adjustments that need to be made again, the stage hands are still o over to the opposite side. And the fly operator, normally by themselves or with an extra hand, they're going to take that buddy off, have a hand hand or two on the pull line, and they're gonna feel the resistance on that line, and they're gonna know whether or not they need to add weight.

Or take weight away. So they may say, Hey, that's pipe heavy. In that case, you might need to add some weight to the [00:15:00] arbor. They may say, Hey, that's arbor heavy. And so they might need to take some weight away. But nevertheless you want to try to get that bar as close to even as possible so that even the smallest of persons can pull that batten in with no problem or to pull it out with no problem.

So once it's all balanced and everything is in place the fly is gonna say, clear and they're gonna mark the loading rail with what's hanging there. In my case, we've got some nice plates there. We'll give some people tape and a marker, and they're going to, write what it is like, I don't know, a house drop or castle drop or, starry night drop, whatever it may be. Or door if it's not a drop, whatever it is that's gonna be hanging on that batten. And so the unloading process is done. In reverse. We're going to pull that batten into its lowest position.

Now, it's in [00:16:00] equilibrium, but once that, if we're using the drop is the example I. Once that drop hits the floor, now you have to pull harder because you're actually pulling against the weight of the the Batten and you don't have the benefit of the counterweight to even it out.

So you might have to have two people. You pull it in and then you lock it off. Everybody's clear. While this process has taken place, once the Flyman says, "Hey, everything's clear." They're gonna start taking the counterweight off first and unload it from the arbor . 

So whatever you've hung in this case, it's the drop. We're gonna take that off next and we just leave the batten's base weight on there. And then there once everyone is clear and those items are outta the way, we're still locked, the flyman is gonna call

"all clear" and wait for everyone to respond. Then test the lineset for balance. so this sounds like quite a complicated process, and it can be if that's the first time [00:17:00] you've ever heard that process. But once you get on a team of people and you see the rhythm of how it's done. It flows very easily. We've talked about correct order of loading and unloading a batten.

And one aspect of counterweight rigging is and not just counterweight rigging, but all types of of rigging is understanding what working load limits are. So every aspect, every component of a system is actually designed to, to take exponentially more force than what you're ever going to be allowed to apply to it.

So we call this design factor. So I'm gonna just choose a random number, and because multiples of 10 are easy we'll just say that. So let's say that we need to hang 500 pounds on a Batten. You would need to make sure that system is designed, to hold that as a working [00:18:00] load. And let's say for instance our design factor was 10.

It doesn't need to be times 10. But let's just say for math's sake it needs to be a design factor of 10. So we would need all the components in that system to be able to withstand. Force of 5,000 pounds or 10 times that. So we're gonna make that working load limit well within the safety of all the components of that rigging system.

Again, that's just a safety feature that's been designed into rigging to keep people safe. But you'll see that marked a lot on, stamped on different pieces of rigging gear as WLL working load limit. And that's something that we need to learn a little bit about. In the theater where I work the working load limit for each Batten or each line set is 700 pounds.

And so I know for a fact that I can't put more than 700 pounds on [00:19:00] that. Line without beginning to stress the components in that system beyond what they were designed in increasing the chance that an accident can happen. A piece of the component could break and somebody could be badly hurt. So when we're talking about working load limits, we're talking about the hardware, right?

So we use things like, shackles. The working lines are actually wire rope that have been woven together. And those all have different strength settings. We have swages on those. We have thimbles that they're wrapped around. We have the bats themselves or the bars that are normally made out of.

Piping, that's not unlike what you would see in your house. I mentioned schedule 40, schedule 80 is another schedule has to do with the thickness of the wall, of the pipe itself. And so sometimes the longer the Batten needs to be to prevent it from [00:20:00] flexing, we're gonna use a stiffer pipe.

And it's gonna be of course. Heavier per linear foot. So all the components in that system needed to be designed to, to handle that. But like in my rig, we're using 32 feet of pipe per line set and we're using Schedule 40. But then there's all kinds of other things too.

We're using a lot of times synthetic rope in each of those rope types in the diameter, the shields or the pulleys that the rope go around. Have to be made to certain specifications. That rope has a tensile strength as well. Both a static weight and, its ultimate strength where it's gonna break through testing.

So again, this is where we're talking about design factor or safety ratios, and so I'm leaning a little bit ahead of myself. But again, just working load limits. That's where we're, that's where we're gonna live is knowing what our [00:21:00] working load limits are on each of the components that we're using.

To lift something. And the rule of thumb is if it's not stamped in there where you can read it, it's probably not safe, and it's probably not rated for overhead rigging. So generally buying hardware from Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that, I. It is not something you want to use in a professional rigging situation.

You want to be able to buy that, from reputable sources. Yeah. Does crossover a little bit into the climbing community, rock climbers and stuff use very similar. Pieces of gear and, when we're dealing with the safety of people, understanding what those components can do and what their capacities are really important.

I wanna jump around some of the things that I have written here and take it a little bit outta order since we're already kinda camping out on this concept is the safety ratios. Pardon me, I have to cough and we are back. So safety ratios again. They're [00:22:00] normally, communicated to us in this type of language in a ratio four to one, five to one, six to one, seven to one.

So again, you can figure out the math, if we said something is, needs to be, four to one ratio. That means that whatever I'm trying to lift, if it's a hundred pounds, it needs to be rated to, to be able to lift at least 400 pounds, right? Four to one, five to one would be 500 pounds, so on and so forth.

So almost every component within a rigging system has this safety ratio in mind. Folks that make this gear are thinking very much about our safety and we really appreciate that. So just something to be aware of is your safety ratios or design factor they call it. And so now I want to jump over a little bit into arena rigging.

And this is an area I have even less experience in, but I do understand [00:23:00] the concepts and so the use of bridles. And so bridles has to do with, if we need to hang something at a certain point from the structure of a building above us, but there's no physical structure for us to hang from, we have to come from structure and create a point.

We're gonna wrap some device around, and harness around, a beam of steel and then we're gonna find the next beam of steel. And if that point needs to hang at a certain place, maybe each leg we call it, of that bridle is even. And so it's gonna carry an even amount of the force pulling down on that.

That's what a bridal does most bridles are, or a lot of the bridles, I understand the math for two point bridles, but we can have more than one point. So each point begins to divide up the load that it needs to be able to resist. And sometimes if the way the structure is built. [00:24:00] The legs or the lines coming in to make the bridle can't be the same distance, then you're gonna have a greater amount of force on one leg than the other.

The angles play into this as well. The steeper the angle, the wider the angle can determine whether or not that bridle has a greater amount of force or a less amount of force. And so there's a lot of resources you can use to learn about this. One of the resources that I wanted to recommend to you and, just looking up here on my handy dandy go Google is a book called rigging Math Made Simple by Bert Hall. I. And Delbert Hall is a expert in this field. Excellent resource on this book called Rigging Math Made Simple. It really breaks down a lot of the computations that you use to determine, [00:25:00] correct and safe rigging, especially in terms of understanding math and determining angles and weight distribution on bridles. He also has an excellent course that you can take on his website that's based off this information as well. And I've signed up and I've taken completed most of that course, but it's really good stuff.

If someone like me who. Came about rigging through by way of lighting can begin to understand it. I think anyone can. But that's a great source again, by Delbert Hall. It's called Rigging Math Made Simple. And I'll try to reference that again later this week on my social media platforms.

So if in case you want to pick up a copy of that, he really does a great job of breaking all that information down and making it simple. Another aspect of rigging is chain motors. A lot of stuff that you see hung in arenas and the big events that you go to they [00:26:00] are chain hoist motors.

And these are measured in how much, they can lift. You have small motors, like quarter ton motors, half ton, one ton, two ton motors. This is how much the motor can hold. These motors are. Super heavy. They need to get electricity. They have enormous amounts of chain with them, and it makes them super heavy.

If you can imagine pulling up, a motor and all the chain that weighs several hundred pounds, 200 feet into the air. And that chain has, so many pounds per linear foot. The motor itself, and you're gonna have big muscles at the end of the day. But these mo motors allow us to move things in and out and to set them at different heights or if things actually have to move in a show.

So understanding a little bit about how these motors are used in our line of work a lot of times [00:27:00] what I've seen is the pixel come over the truss. Where the lights or things are hung off of video walls or whatever in that motor or ride low. And the chain will, be sent up with the rope as they let it out.

And the hook, attaches to the bridal overhead so the motor rides load to the truss. Sometimes they want it. Motor high and chain comes down and picks the truss up that way, depending on who you talk to, one, one way is called inverted, and the other way is normal. But I'm not gonna get into that argument right now.

The next aspect about rigging I wanted to talk about super quick is just rope and types of knots. And this is another area where I'm terrible. I just, full disclosure, I was not a Boy Scout. I can barely tie my shoes. So if you ask me to do a bowling or, figure eight or whatever, I'm not great at this.

And some people might say you're not qualified to be a technical director. Okay, [00:28:00] if that's the measure that you're giving, then I guess I'm not 27 years in. But I am still trying to grow in this area. But I can tie a decent knot now. But understanding that when you tie certain knots that it actually takes away from the strength of a rope, believe it or not by a certain percentage.

There's another great tool or reference material that I want to reference. Here is another wonderful resource and this gentleman has since. Past, but this is another great resource that you need to dive into, is J Gleem. His last name is spelled G-L-E-R-U-M. It's the Stage Rigging Handbook.

The one that I have that I reference a lot is the third edition. I think they came out with a fourth edition. I'm not sure the differences between the two, but he covers every aspect of rigging you could possibly imagine. It is a. Incredibly rich and dense resource [00:29:00] whereas the rigging math made simple focuses solely on the math computations.

And again, it's a great reference piece to put into your stage rigging library and grow your knowledge. But this stage rigging handbook is another one. And that goes over a lot of the things that we've already talked about. And then one more book that I would like to reference. And this is a newer one, and this is a compilation of different sources, but it was compiled and put together by another world renowned rigor.

An expert in the business named Bill Sapsis S-A-P-S-I-S Sapsis rigging located up in the northeast corner of the country. It's Entertainment Rigging for the 21st Century. It's the short title with a subtitle of Compilation of Work on Rigging Practices, Safety and Related Topics. So I'm gonna try to reference all these in the transcript and also reference these different resources on [00:30:00] different aspects of my social media this week.

All designed to drive traffic back to the podcast. Who knew? There's method to the madness. No, but those are some great resources. I own each of these three books, I should say the theater where I work, owns these books, and I have the opportunity to reference these books, and I don't use them every day.

But over the last couple years, these books have become invaluable to me and growing in an area again, of self-disclosure that I'm not the greatest at, but I'm probably better at than what I think I am. I'm just trying to be humble about it and just be honest then. And compared to like audio and lighting Nvidia rigging is, a far forth skillset, but nevertheless I ramble on.

The last thing I want to talk about, and we've already really referenced it, is hearkening back to theatrical ringing. Is understanding the different the different parts of a theater rigging system is really [00:31:00] important. And I think of the references that I just gave you the ones that is the best I should say, is, the Jay Glerum book. The Stage Rigging Handbook really goes into depth about the aspects of a counterweight rigging system. And then one more name drop of information here if you really want to get serious about stage rigging. The industry has moved more and more towards safety and certification.

A number of years ago, there was a organization that was put together. Called ESTA. And out of that has come several aspects of certification that you can get. And one of those has is called Entertainment Technician Certification Program or ETCP. And they have several different ones that you can get certified in.

There is the two parts of rigging. So there's the [00:32:00] theatrical rigging where they touch a little bit on arena rigging, but it's more geared towards those that are gonna be doing the majority of their rigging in theaters. And then there's a further certification in arena rigging. A lot of companies that are hiring like to have at least one ET CP certified rigger.

On site. This has a lot to do with liabilities, but also has to do with knowledge. I say this with a caveat. I've taken this test now and I'm not ashamed to say four times. It is scored very strictly 180 questions in three hours, of which 150 of those are actually counted. The other 30 questions, which are sprinkled in, are tested for further test questions later.

So even if you answer them right, they don't get scored in with your score. There's a very sophisticated scoring system, so it's not I have to get a hundred. It changes. So I've come as close [00:33:00] as six questions to passing and getting this certification. So when I say that I'm not good at this.

I'm actually pretty good this, but from a knowledge base, I would say there are people who have been doing this a long time, who've never taken a test and never will because they embody the knowledge. They've just been doing it so long that. They can tell you off the top of the head what to do and how to do it, because it's just become second nature to them.

So I don't want to discount those people within our industry. Those people are the stalwarts on which we stand on their shoulders and we move this industry. Forward. So hats off to the folks on the job sites with a little bit of gray in their hair and maybe we move a little bit slower, but we can still get stuff done.

I'm gonna keep it clean for you. I started to say [00:34:00] another word, full disclosure, but I'm gonna keep it clean. But nevertheless. ETCP is becoming, and I think will become more and more the standard by which we want to send people to. They also certify electricians for stage electricians. But I've seen this standard become more and more the norm for rigging before I have for.

Electricians. But again, all of this is a move towards safety. All of this is a move towards standardizing our practices and the way that we do things so that we have better outcomes and our people that work in this industry are safer. It costs you to take this test. It's expensive to take this test.

It's difficult to pass this test. And I've talked myself with Bill Sapsis and with Delbert Hall and argued a little bit about, why I didn't. Pass, but I've come to the conclusion that the [00:35:00] system works, and if somebody like me could have passed the test, I probably would've put you in danger because I can generate something on the test that I can't generate in the real world, and I would rather have people on the ground who know what the hell's going on.

And not have a certification by their name. Then to have 10 people with certifications who don't know diddly squat and that's a dangerous situation. So it cuts both ways. Sorry, I bumped my mic right there. 'cause I like to talk with my hands even when nobody's watching. Alright, I'm gonna stop rambling on.

That's about all that I have to say about the essentials of rigging knowledge. Again, this is the wrap up. Of four solid weeks where we've talked about the essential knowledge and the four big disciplines of audio, visual, audio, stage, lighting, video, and rigging. Again, none of this is meant to be comprehensive.

It's meant to introduce you to concepts and ideas that then you can go deep dive on yourself [00:36:00] and learn more, and grow more. Again, I'm the host. Stephen Verner. If you have questions for me, I'll be happy to entertain those questions. You can send those to ravethepodcast@gmail.com. Thank you so much for sticking around and if you know somebody who wants to get into this area of business or has some interest in it, recommend this podcast to them.

Again, we're trying to grow the podcast we're gonna be doing. More and more series like this. We're gonna invite some guests on and you're not just gonna listen to me talk all the time. Thank you so much for sticking around. Again, my name's Stephen Verner. This has been Rave, the podcast where we are training tomorrow's AV professionals with excellence and integrity.

See you later.