Hello and welcome to the latest talking transport podcast from London Travel Watch. My name is Lara Snowland and I'm one of the Travel Watch board members, and I also sit on the board of HK Wandsworth as a trustee, as well as a number of other charities.
And I'm delighted to have here with us today John McGeehee, who is the campaigns manager at AGK London.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Really great to be here. So thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. So, John, can you tell us a little bit more about your role and your background?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So I'm the campaigns manager at AGK London. For quite a long time now, I've worked for different charities, mainly in relation to campaigning. AGUK London is the second older persons charity that I've worked for. AGUK London itself, we're a small charity that campaigns to make London a better place for older people. And you know, there's so many reasons why that's really important. There's 1.6 million people in London over the age of 60. And also something that people often don't realise, we're actually the fastest aging city in the entire UK. So the population of older people is is massively increasing. And the I think the story of older people in London is just one of such contrasts because we are this incredible city where so many people have really amazing lives, but we often have these really extreme disparities. So there are lots and lots of older people living really active, fulfilled lives, but there's also lots of older people that are really struggling for a variety of reasons. So, for example, there's one in four older people that live in poverty, and that's often kind of a bit less talked about and a bit more hidden. So, yeah, lots of reasons why we
exist.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. And I know a little bit about ADK's work more generally, just from my role at ADK 1 to Earth. But I'm curious to know how big a role does transport play in the broader work that you cover?
SPEAKER_01I would say transport is a really significant part of the work that we do. I think we're an older people's charity, so in theory, we can work on any issue that affects an older person, and obviously there are thousands of those in London, but actually I think public transport in particular is something that connects everyone and it links to so much of our lives in other ways, like access to health services and housing and getting to work or to volunteering. So I know there are organizations that focus on transport, and that's because there are thousands of issues. And when it comes to transport, for us it's kind of focusing on where we think we can make the most difference.
So I'm curious to understand a bit more about how important is reliable public transport to your users. And then my follow-up question would also be about affordability of public transport. I mean, we're incredibly lucky to have an amazing transport system in London. But if you're not able to use it or you can't afford to use it, then that's gonna have a big impact on your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think reliability is crucial because it's so important that people can plan their journeys. And if you're uncertain about are there going to be service changes, is the station going to be open? Is the lift going to be working? That means you're kind of anxious about your journey until it's actually over. And I think knowing that you can depend on certain services is really important for people, especially if those journeys are things like accessing particular services, maybe going to an exercise class, or maybe an early morning medical appointment, or somewhere where you really need to be at a specific place at a specific time. Having that confidence in the transport service is massive and think makes a huge difference to people. And I would say affordability is absolutely crucial as well for older people in London. So for most older Londoners, there are travel concessions. So that will usually be the Freedom Pass, sometimes a 60-plus oyster card. That's not just a really important part of everyday life for them, because older people are less likely to drive cars, much more likely to rely on public transport, particularly in London compared with other parts of the country. But that affordability is really important because it's about those journeys. So those social connections, getting to services, and affordability is massive because there are lots of older people struggling financially. And we had an experience of a few years ago when the time of day when the Freedom Pass or the 60 plus oyster card could be used was cut. So you were no longer able to use it before 9 a.m. And people were telling us that that meant that they weren't making certain journeys in the morning. So they would usually go to the supermarket really early because it was quiet and they felt they were no longer able to do that. But also early morning medical appointments, for example. The appointment might not be till 9 o'clock, for instance, but you want to get there, not have to worry about being in a rush. So you want to arrive at sort of 8:30, 8.45. So yeah, affordable transport, I would say, is really crucial for all the Londoners.
SPEAKER_00No, um I've got experience of that actually. I sometimes have to book appointments for my mum, and I'll call up and they'll be like, oh, so how about you know 9.30? And I'll say, Well, actually, that's not gonna work because she doesn't normally travel that early in the morning and her oyster card doesn't work before then. And it's really interesting that it doesn't recur to those services to think about that. You have to be the one to point it out to them. Actually, can we get an appointment in the early afternoon or sometime that's more acceptable?
There's actually been a lot in the news about travel concessions. So it'd be really interesting to get your perspective on things like the Oyster 60 Plus with the cost of living, with the fact that everybody's finances are squeezed. Why do you think it's important to still fund these kind of concessions?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think if you cut something like the Freedom Pass, it's not just gone for people that use it now, it's gone for people that will use it in the future. So hopefully most people become older people. And it's about, I think, looking more broadly at it. So it's such a kind of crucial issue for all the reasons why transport journeys are so important to all our lives. And also when people think about it as I've heard it described as like a luxury or a freebie, one people actually have been contributing to it as council taxpayers, for example, over a long period of time. And secondly, some of those journeys are used to support people who are contributing to the local economy in lots of different ways, either because they're shopping in shops. I mean, people work longer into their lives in London than any other part of the country. So some of those journeys are to work, and before some people say, well, they're getting to work, but some of those are low-paid jobs. I think if you cut something like travel concessions, people are going to be less active, people are gonna stop going to all the things that they want to do, and in some cases, even accessing some of the services that they want to access, and that has a huge effect on the individual person but society as a whole, because the more we can get people active and support people to live the lives that they want to live, I think everyone benefits from that. In terms of finances, absolutely recognise the squeeze on local authority funding. So the Freedom Pass, for instance, people get a bit confused with the 60 plus oyster card, which is funded in a slightly different way. But the Freedom Pass is primarily funded by local authorities through council taxes. There's some central government grant, but it's quite small. And also lots of councils are having to top up the budget by using money from parking fines and fixed penalty notices and things. I would totally recognise those pressures, but I think it's about finding alternative means of funding. And also, this comes in the background of 15 years of cuts for local authorities. I think it's really crucial that the central government recognise that and supporting those local authorities with things, I mean, with across all services, of course, but recognising that actually travel concessions have a really important part in active and the healthy lives that people live. And there's so many benefits for that.
One argument that's made is that younger people should also be getting support when travelling in London. And I think there was a campaign for maybe it was under 22s, I think, potentially to get some kind of concession for those who are struggling when they're studying or are in work, and that potentially that could be a concession that was introduced instead of some of the concessions for older people. What would you say to that?
SPEAKER_01First of all, I would love to see travel concessions for younger people. Totally support that. I think it's really important. And actually, if you look at the cost of living over the last few years, it's often been younger people and older people that have been amongst those hit hardest. So really recognise that younger people should get that support. I'd like to see it. Actually, one of the sort of things I was really proud about with AGK London was a few years ago now, where we did joint campaigning together with younger people's charities about travel concessions. Because it was at a time when both were under threat in different ways, and actually trying to build out that solidarity between generations, because I think it's really important that when you think about making things better for one group of people, it's not at the expense of other people. Why can't we do something positive without making things more difficult for other people? So I think it's about both, and I'd love to see travel concessions for younger people and I'd love to see the funding be there, but not at the expense of older people. Because actually, if you would say to younger people now, they understandably would want travel concessions, but if you told them this is at the expense of yourself in 30, 40, 50 years' time, people might think of it a bit differently. But I'd want to see it for both for sure.
SPEAKER_00No, that makes sense. And I think you make a really good point that it's not necessarily a trade-off between the generations. Final question on this point would be
what about means testing the concessions?
SPEAKER_01I can understand that point. And I mentioned earlier lots of older Londoners living in poverty. Sometimes that poverty is really deep poverty, especially for older disabled people, those reliant on just the basic state pension, for example. So, yes, we need to protect those people. I think the challenge with means testing is we often find that there's a group of people that whether it's about £50 a week or £100 a month, they're just over the threshold. But if you get this kind of cliff where you suddenly take it from those people who are just about not eligible for it, they really struggle as a result. I also think with means testing, it would be in terms of the administration and finding out who the right people are. I think that would be really challenging as well. And you know, more broadly, I'm a big fan of universal support because I think everyone benefits from affordable transport. And yeah, the more of it, the better.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. So let's move on to another topic. Something
that we focus on a lot at London Travel Watch is digital exclusion. And it's an area that we've done research into, we've published reports on it. And it obviously can affect people from a range of different backgrounds. But I'd be interested to know your thoughts on how digital exclusion can affect older people, particularly, and what would you like to see change?
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah, it's a really big issue. And we've got this kind of rush to making everything as digital as possible, and I think there's a real risk that some people are left behind by that. So, digital exclusion in general is a really important issue for us. There's about 200,000 people, over 70 in London, that are offline, so that's not having the internet at home, but also not having smartphones. They're not having that access already means that they're facing different barriers to access certain services. And when you look at transport, that has a really big impact on things like accessing support if there's not staff in the ticket hall or on site, whether that's for accessibility or for other reasons. But also, and I mentioned you can't use travel concessions early in the morning, so you might need to buy tickets at that time and supporting people to buy those tickets, particularly because a lot of people that are digitally excluded and older people are more likely to depend on cash. And I know that's something that Travel Watch has been particularly focused on and making sure those people are still able to make the journeys that they need to make, ensuring people that aren't digitally excluded when it comes to transport is really, really important. And in terms of what I'd like to see, I think there's a kind of broader commitment that you don't just consciously or subconsciously allow it to happen where people become more and more excluded over time, because you've got to remember some older people that are digitally included, as it were, but then they become excluded because of say, for example, they have arthritis in their hands and it becomes harder to use a smartphone or they've been a victim of an online scam and then they've gone offline. So making sure those people aren't left behind. And the the other thing that I would say about digital exclusion and transport is especially because lots of people without the internet are also more likely to be on lower incomes, there's a risk that the cheapest fares, for example, are only available if you're using a certain app or on a particular website. So that needs to be recognised. People without smartphones, for example, need to be able to access those fares. Yeah, more support for people. London Travel Watch did a report on this. So all of the recommendations in that report, and you haven't asked me to say that, by the way. Um yeah, I think there are specific things, more visibility at station, more support with buying tickets and accessing services, but also broadly making sure it's not this kind of creep that happens over the next few years.
When you say more visibility at s at stations, do you mean signage or do you mean in terms of, for example, ticket machines, or are you talking about actually having staff that you can ask?
SPEAKER_01Well, signage and machines are really important, but staff primarily so that you can ask those questions if you're having trouble with a machine that's not working properly. I think that's yeah really important, especially for people with particular accessibility needs, because it's about that confidence to travel and not knowing that you're not turning up to a station and then facing a barrier going on your onwards journey because of a lack of support. So yeah, visibility in terms of uh station stuff.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the things that I found really interesting about the research was also when, for example, you were calling up the helpline to ask for help with your journey and as you talked about that sort of being able to plan your journey and understanding if there are changes happening or if there are delays or changes.
I'm curious to get your sense of what you think would be helpful in terms of if you're in the middle of a journey and you don't have the ability to pick up your phone and see, oh, okay, this bus is on diversion or there's now a change to this. How could we communicate that in a way that would be helpful for people?
SPEAKER_01Again, that's part of the reason why having staff available as much as possible is important. But also thinking about announcements, both kind of visual announcements. Someone might be hearing impaired, for example, as well as audio announcements. And also making sure things are well signposted as much as possible, to the extent that if people they can't find other support, they might be able to rely on a passenger that's also heard an announcement. But yeah, those things are really important because TFL Go and other apps, there is some information about of the this lift is broken down or the service is disrupted, or the station's missing out of this station. And if you're not finding about those changes until it's too late, that one means you can't make the journey at all, and it has a huge disruption on your day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Let's move on to talk a bit more about accessibility and how we can ensure that transport is more accessible for older people.
So we recently did some research around the difficulties that people face when walking and wheeling in London, and that includes, for example, using wheelchairs. How do issues such as uneven pavements, lack of rest stops and toilets, or poor lighting affect older people?
SPEAKER_01They all have an impact in different ways on something like cracks in the pavement or uneven paving. Obviously, the biggest worry is tripping and falling over, which obviously can happen to anyone at at any age. We're really concerned about older people that might have a bit more frailty, or it will take them a lot longer to recover from broken bones, for example. And you know, there's some people who fall over and just get back up, but there are others that it might result in a long hospital stay, and that will have a knock-on effect with lots of other things related to their physical health. And also, if you have one bad incident of falling over, it's more likely to happen again, and there are all these kind of knock-on effects. So it's really important that we reduce as much as possible the risk of those happening. Older people with visual impairments, amongst those most likely to be affected, something like rest stops, that's really important for people that are a bit slower with their walking, maybe they're recovering from a particular injury, or maybe they have a condition that kind of causes them shortness of breath. I think ability to or knowing that there's a bench that you're going to pass relatively soon does make a big difference, and people feel less anxious about that. And I think when we do have benches and things, it's really important that they're sheltered and good places to sit rather than broken or not in the right place. So yeah, restaurant's really important. Public toilets, again, we do a lot of campaigning on public toilets, and the main driver behind that was we were looking at what in our infrastructure was making some people feel less confident about going and doing the things that they wanted to do. So we kind of started looking at toilets very much from a social isolation perspective, and again, knowing that there's a toilet somewhere means you're more likely to go to that place, be more active, spend money in the local shops, access services, etc. So, yeah, there's so many kind of issues when it comes to walking and wheeling, but the more we can kind of reduce barriers and make sure people feel confident with those journeys, I think everyone benefits.
And what would you like to see change? And is there any particular role that you think London Travel Watch can play in that?
SPEAKER_01A lot of these issues are quite difficult or challenging when it comes to changing. So it's probably about a combination of different things. So uneven pavements, making sure that the councils have those budgets for better road maintenance is important. That if those are reported to a council or maybe sometimes the highways agency, they acted upon quickly before there are more accidents. And then there's things like better enforcement or actions to reduce the risk of like people riding at speed on an e-bike on a pavement, for example, which is a big kind of issue for lots of older people, primarily because they're worried about being hit and knocked over and the impact of that. But yeah, more support for people to know how to report issues to councils, and also more meaningful listening to people of all ages if changes are being made to a cycle lane, for example, or local roads, for instance, and making sure that that listening is actually meaningful and not too late because sometimes you get a quality impact assessment with certain changes. Sometimes people feel an issue is highlighted but not necessarily acted upon as a result. So, yeah, it's a combination of things. And becomes to changing attitudes, services and funding.
Yeah, the um inevitable challenge of funding always hits us. I mean, you really briefly touched on lifts, and I think it's an area that comes up a lot when we talk about accessibility. And I think some of my local stations, the same lifts have been out of service for quite a long time, and you do get announcements telling you, but obviously that doesn't really help that much in terms of accessibility. What would you like to see TFL and some of the other transport providers do around sort of just improving that consistent access to lifts?
SPEAKER_01So there's definitely the kind of communication aspect of it. If it's your local station, you probably know that that lift's going to be out of order. If you're going to that station for the first time and you haven't had that information, that's going to cause really big problems. So I think improving the communication is really important. Obviously, there's a much bigger picture about improving the number of step-free stations in London. Um, obviously, that's a huge task because it takes a lot of money, and more and more stations each year become step-free. But it's gonna take 10, 20, 30 years until they're all step-free. So I think when that work is taking place, and to be fair to the operators and others, they are working on these things, but it's about really prioritizing certain stations that people can benefit from, and are they interchanges and and who's using which station? So better communication in the short term, making sure there are staff on site to support people if it is a station where a lift is broken, and then more widely just supporting the step-free investment.
So looking ahead, is there one particular issue that you think is going to affect older people most when they travel around London?
SPEAKER_01It is hard that question in some ways, because there are so many issues, and obviously, older people are not this homogenous group where only certain things apply. I to say what I was gonna say uh first, which is we recently did a report on the topic of ageism in London, and one of the findings that was most surprising, certainly to me, was we had a question about where was it that people said they were experiencing ageism? And I expected accessing services, going to the bank, um, recruitment, maybe some healthcare settings and things. And actually the area that came up top was outbooked transport.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01And I was like, that's really strange. And we were wondering why, because we know there's lots of issues related to accessibility and making sure journeys are as good as they can be, but when we kind of dig a bit deeper, it was a lot often about people feeling either ignored by fellow passengers or conversely, not ignored, but feeling there was a real lack of patience with people, and that might be in situations of overcrowding. It's a really interesting area, and I think we need to explore it more. Something that was pointed out to me was this John, actually, it's not that surprising because if you think about public transport, it's where society meets, and you're gonna get all sorts of people, some of them will be in a rush, there'll be lots of different things going on, and sometimes in those spaces, that's where these negative behaviours or experiences can happen. So that's what I was gonna say. But I'll be honest, I don't think we know enough about that yet um to see how it's gonna be an issue going forwards. So I would
say the buses.
SPEAKER_00Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_01And again, so many issues, step-free, communication, etc. The reason why I say buses is one, I think it is for maybe all ages, the transport mode that older Londoners take the most. So if you look at the Freedom Pass, for example, 220 million Freedom Pass journeys out of a total of about 270 altogether, 220 million, so that's what 75% or something, are made on buses. And I think that's part of the a story of what those journeys are for. So obviously, more likely to be more local journeys, particularly everyday things like shopping, but also accessing services or getting to a health center two or three miles away, that sort of thing. So I think it's an issue that's going to really affect people because people rely on the buses so much. And then the context is changes to bus services in the recent past, but also projected over the next 10, 20 years, reductions in the number of services, something that's often highlighted to us are the services where there's a hospital either at one end or in the middle of a particular route, but also changes to services frequency or where people having to get off one bus, cross a road, and get on another bus. So there's interchanges and things. And actually, for some people, having to change buses can make the journey a lot harder, whether it's someone that's maybe struggling with their mobility or they're having to wait a lot longer in bad weather conditions and that sort of thing. So I think the more we can support our buses and protect services, that obviously benefits all Londoners, but especially older people in London.
We hadn't mentioned buses before, so it was great to bring up that topic. Do you mind if I asked you a question about buses and linking accessibility? So I attended a conference in Wandsworth for the Wanderworth Older People's Forum, and it was all about accessible transport. That was the theme of the conference that year. And buses was definitely the topic that got people the most engaged. And the person from TFL who was there to talk about bus services had so many questions afterwards. He was inundated. And a lot of people actually had concerns, particularly those who were using wheelchairs or other accessibility aids, about challenges being able to access those spaces in buses and potentially if they're being used by people who, for example, might be using push chairs. And one of the things that they were really concerned about was just the fact that even though technically it's meant to be for accessibility, it didn't feel like they were necessarily being prioritized. And I'm curious what's HK's London's stance on those types of issues.
SPEAKER_01As you say, there's so many issues related to buses, not all placed close enough to the curb or kneeling, so it's a bigger gap for people walking on buses driving away suddenly before some people have had a chance to sit down. Um, especially if they're maybe holding their shopping in one hand, maybe got a mobility aid in another hand, for example. So, yeah, always lots of issues with buses. And I look back at an HUK London campaign from 15 years ago and what people were saying then, basically a lot of people are saying now. So there are issues on priority spaces for wheelchair users, it is a huge issue, and actually that relates a little bit to like frequency of services because if more frequent services, less crowding, and so you reduce the likelihood of wheelchair user, for example, thinking, Well, I can get on this bus, the driver's gonna lower the ramp, and in theory, I should be able to get into that priority space. But actually, just seeing the crowding and almost thinking I'm gonna confront people, gonna say things, I might get some negativity towards me. And some people don't want that to be part of their day, and they would rather wait another 10-15 minutes for the next bus to do that. So I think support with driver training and the announcements are really important. I think the passenger awareness behaviour change is really important because I think there is still some confusion about what has priority and what doesn't. Yeah, it is a big issue because it's about the physical space, but also our interactions with other people. And actually, I mentioned ageism on transport earlier. I think that's all part of it as well. So I think there isn't still a need to improve that area through awareness and also bus driver support as
well.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and then my last question: if you could change one thing to improve London's public transport system, what would it be?
SPEAKER_01Not an easy question in some ways, but I've gone with better communication.
SPEAKER_00Oh and I was expecting something more radical.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. The reason why I've sort of gone through that is because it cuts across everything. So we've already spoken about digital exclusion and not knowing that a lift has broken down or support with buying a ticket, but actually I think better communication would make people more aware of some support and services that are actually already there, but people don't know about. So things that people could really benefit from, but they just don't know it exists. So, one, for example, we've done some campaigning in the past on the Transport for London service called travel mentoring, okay, which is about supporting people. It's often targeted at younger generations and school children, but I think there's big potential for lots of older people to benefit. So it's support and advice for people that maybe haven't used public transport for a long time and are lacking confidence. And I think there are significant numbers of older Londoners that would benefit from that. So, for example, someone that's maybe recently been bereaved and their partner was the person that gave them lifts in the car to lots of places, and suddenly for the first time in a long time, they're having to navigate the buses or other services, and supporting people with the confidence to do that is really important. But also, maybe people recovering from a stroke, for example, or they previously haven't used services like Turn Up and Go or use the mobility aid in the past, and they're suddenly in a different situation, and travel mentoring is designed to support those people. I think there's lots of older people that could benefit, but they just don't know about it. So I'll say to TfL, I'm not criticizing you, it's really great that you do it and it's a really good service. I just wish that more people would know about it. The other thing,
going back to not my favourite subjects, but subjects I talk about a lot: toilets. There's something like 140, 150 stations on the Transport for London network that have toilets.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I didn't know of that. I wouldn't have thought it was that many.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's why I think that information is really important to get to people because you're right, most people say, I thought it would be much smaller than that. I don't see these toilets, I didn't know if they were there. And actually, if people are more aware, because there is better communication, that can support people planning their journeys, for instance. And again, there's this kind of interaction with digital exclusion because there is a map of toilets online if you can access it. And what we've said is that's a really positive thing, but we'd like to see more paper maps, for example. So I think communication because it's about supporting people planned journeys and have the information that they need, but also to prevent people from missing out from things that would actually benefit them that they just don't know about. So yeah, that's why I've gone for communication.
SPEAKER_00You've convinced me.
Well, thank you so much, John, for your time today. I've learned lots of things I didn't know about, and I'm probably gonna go on the website and find out a bit more about some of these different services that older people should be able to tap into. Is there anything you wanted to flag or tell us about AGK London where you can find out more?
SPEAKER_01So we have a website, just Google AGK London. We're a campaigns charity. So anyone, and it doesn't matter how old you are, but if you're interested in campaigning to make London a better place for older people now, but also future generations of older Londoners, please do check that out. We've got lots of different campaigns on transport and access to services. We've got a new campaign called London Against Ageism, which we're very excited about. So if you want to get involved in any campaigns and to support us, that'd be fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much for tuning in to this episode of Talking Transport.