Roots, Rights and Reason with Lee Smith
America's Future presents: Roots, Rights and Reason with Lee Smith cuts through the noise to reclaim the truth of America’s foundations. Bestselling author and investigative journalist Lee Smith dives deep every week into the ideas that built the United States—natural rights, liberty, the Constitution, and moral order. With top guests and sharp analysis, Lee exposes the forces threatening America’s future and explores how we can stand firm in truth and reason.
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The Roots Rights & Reason Show - America's Future
Roots, Rights and Reason with Lee Smith
The Classical Roots of Leadership
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In this episode of Roots, Rights & Reason, Lee Smith welcomes C. L. Max Nikias for a compelling conversation on leadership, resilience, and the enduring wisdom of the classical world. Drawing from the works of Homer and Xenophon, Dr. Nikias explains how the traits of great leaders, vision, discipline, courage, and self-restraint have been understood for centuries and remain essential today.
From his personal journey as an immigrant to his leadership at one of America’s top universities, Dr. Nikias reflects on the principles that shape strong leadership in times of uncertainty. This episode explores how classical education informed the Founding Fathers, why resilience is the defining test of leadership, and what it will take to cultivate the next generation of leaders in a rapidly changing world.
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From the brave root of our family. To the unstoppable force of American ingenuity. To the sacred inheritance of freedom we must protect. This is our legacy. Join investigative journalist, Lee Smith, on Roots, Rights, and Reason. Powered by America's future.
SPEAKER_01I'm Lee Smith. Welcome and thanks for joining us for this new episode of Roots, Rights, and Reason. This week we're discussing one of the underlying, yet frequently overlooked, principles of our nation under a government by, for, and of the people. And that's leadership. After all, if we're in charge of our own fate, the fate of our families, communities, and country, ultimately we all have to rise to the challenge of leadership. So what is a leader? It's not just someone who has a title or a position of authority. It is someone who earns trust, sets an example, and helps others succeed. Maybe what they're leading is a large corporation or a country or a small business or even a family. A good leader communicates clearly, listens actively, and demonstrates qualities such as integrity, responsibility, and resilience. It is the ability to bring out the best in others while working toward a shared purpose. Our country is famous for breeding great leaders in politics, business, and even sports, from George Washington and Abraham Lincoln to Jackie Robinson and Steve Jobs. But not everyone is born with what it takes to inspire others to attempt what seems impossible and then succeed. So how do you build leaders? You have to be willing to learn it, to learn how to lead. So you have to be open to learning, willing to take on challenges. Maybe most importantly, you have to be able to view failure as an opportunity to improve. And for sure, leaders have to be willing to fail a lot. A leader isn't someone who wins all the time, but someone who knows how to turn losing into a lesson that builds the confidence and resilience it takes to lead. Look at it like this the World Series trophy comes at the end of a long season that over the span of 162 games may involve more than losing a third of the time. The best hitters in the game fail more than 60% of the time. Leading then isn't winning the batting title or the World Series. It's staying motivated and keeping others inspired when you're losing so that you win in the end. One of the great American institutions designed to teach and learn leadership is our colleges and universities, which provide structured environments where individuals can practice leadership through teamwork, projects, and real-world challenges. Thus, the job of a university president is not only to lead, but to create an environment where others learn to lead. The best of educational institutions breed leaders in every field, from politics and business to science and sport. Our guest today is Max Nikius, one of America's most celebrated leaders. He served as the 11th president of the University of Southern California. He is a member of the National Academy of Engineering, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the National Academy of Inventors. The U.S. Department of War has adopted a number of his innovations and patents in sonar, radar, and communications systems. Max is also author of American Trojan: Leadership, Resilience, and the Renewal of Higher Education. Max is also author of the just published book, American Trojan: Leadership, Resilience, and the Renewal of Higher Education. Max Nikia, thank you so much for being with us here on Roots, Rights, and Reason. Max, what is leadership?
SPEAKER_02Well, Lee, first of all, thank you for having me on your program. It's a privilege and a pleasure. And uh leadership has many different definitions, but uh for me is fundamentally about navigating the unexpected. That you have to have that ability to navigate successfully the unexpected. Of course, for anything you do, having a leadership position, you have to have a compelling vision. You have to c you have to come up with a strategy and an execution plan to materialize your vision. Uh and then you have to recruit the very best team. Uh you need to be surrounded by very talented people that they are gonna drive that execution. But at the end, the unexpected will find you. And how you respond to the unexpected is going to define your leadership.
SPEAKER_01Max, I I'm I'm smiling uh uh from ear to ear, not only because I'm so happy to be speaking with you, but I have to let uh the our audience know that we were speaking about the classics before we started, and we were speaking especially about Homer. So the minute that you said you have to navigate, I'm thinking, wait a minute, he's talking, he's talking about Odysseus here. You're talking about navigating the unexpected, and you have to have a team behind you. So, how much, how much do the classics actually shape your vision? Because uh, because of course uh uh Odysseus is is one of the great leaders in in world literature and one of the great things we know. So, how much do the classics inform, because I know that you've also taught a class on leadership, how much do the classics inform your idea of what it takes to build to build leaders and how to lead?
SPEAKER_02The classics provide us with the foundation when it comes to leadership. And this is exactly what I teach in my class. For example, if you take the Iliad and the Odyssey of Homer, and you see them many different heroes. So if you take the the strengths, the qualifications of each one of the heroes and you put them collectively together, all those strengths, the cunning of Odysseus, the justice of Nestor, for example, uh, and then you take Achilles, uh, the manliness and aggressiveness of Achilles. If you take all these qualifications collectively, you come up with what is needed for an ideal leader. You need a person that will combine all these qualities together. That's how I begin teaching my class in leadership. Wow. And then and then, of course, I uh uh uh many people believe, experts on leadership today, that the Bible on leadership is Xenophon's education of Cyrus, Cyropedia. And this is the very last book that he wrote before he passed away. So, in many ways, uh looking at Xenophon, he was like a very successful general, a philosopher, and uh and towards retirement and towards the end of his life, it's like writing a memoir. Because writing that book, he reflected his personal experiences, leading 10,000 Greek mercenaries from the middle of Persia back to their homeland.
SPEAKER_01And this is the anabasis, right? That you're describing right as well.
SPEAKER_02That's the anabasis, but he wrote also the education of Cyrus, which is the idea leader. Xenophone's leader doesn't make a mistake.
SPEAKER_01What does he say in it? How does he describe leadership there? What does he say about great leaders?
SPEAKER_02Well, here is the interesting part. He says when it comes to leadership, he alludes that may be in the genes of a person. In other words, uh uh what he describes there is that there are certain qualities for a leader that we can see in that person even when that person was a child. You gotta the foundation, the requirements for leadership is uh love for humanity. You really have to care about other people, and you want to learn about their challenges and help them overcome that. Then is the love for learning. All leaders are self-educated. It's you are you are learning when you are doing it. Every leader is self-educated, and then you have to have that love for honor, that drive to excel, because only then you will be able to accomplish the goals you set up for your corporation or your institution or your country. You gotta have that drive and determination. So those are the three basic qualities that Xenophone describes in the book.
SPEAKER_01Wow. What about what about the what about the I mean you talk about uh when you talked before about facing the unexpected, so a lot of the times leaders uh you're not winning all the time. You there are many losses. You you uh uh Odysseus faces many losses along the way, right? Losses of men, um uh loss loss of his ship. Um so what about adversity? Because this is also part of the subtitle of your great new book, America. That's right. Resilience resilience.
SPEAKER_02So resilience is the key there. And and you also have to be able to make very tough decisions in the midst of a crisis and be very calm about it. That's why Xenophon talks when it comes to resilience, he talks about self-restrain. But it's uh the importance of self-restrain in the emotions of the body, fear sometimes may prevent you from making the right decision or taking the necessary risks. So self-restraining to the emotions of the body, but also the pleasures of the body is what separates a leader from a follower.
SPEAKER_01And uh we have Can you explain? That's fascinating. What do you mean by that? What separates a leader from a follower?
SPEAKER_02What uh self-restraint. Let's take the pleasures of the body. For a person, uh, we have seen so many leaders that their downfall was the lack of self-restraint. Because of having, I'll use an example, having an affair inappropriate one with an employee reporting to them, and that's a violation of the rules. That's lack of self-restraint. Or addiction. Uh, if you are addicted to something, whether it's drugs or alcohol, that will be your downfall as a leader. So you must, and also leaders, once you become a leader, everybody wants to be nice to you. They want to get very close to you. And you should never let that get into your mind. And uh so you have to show the strength. And uh it's very important to keep also a little bit the distance from your followers. If you get too close to them, then you may face pressures lacking self-restraint. So Xenophon talks about all that in the book and gives many examples. Uh, his Cyrus, his ideal leader, when they conquer a certain land, there is one of his lieutenants that goes to him and says, the most beautiful princess is here and she's yours. And he refused to meet with her because the next morning he uh he was preparing for a battle the next morning. He did not want to be distracted. That's self-restraint taught by Xenophon.
SPEAKER_01And then of course, uh uh Aeneas, when he falls in love with Dido of Carthage, he self-restraint. He has to he knows that he has a job to do, and what is his job? His job is to found his job is to found Rome, right? That's the important thing. So yes, understanding that. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and he uh in the Aeneid, he calls his comrades and gives the beautiful speech that we have farther to go. This is not our destiny, it's over across our destiny. And that particular excerpt is like a charge uh in Latin. I will read that at every commencement at USC. I introduce that as a tradition.
SPEAKER_01Um you say that leadership qualities come out very early, and your book starts with with your childhood. Did your did did your family uh and I I want to talk a little bit about your your childhood and also your great uh your own great journey, your own great odyssey here to the United States. Um but what do did your parents recognize these qualities in you? Did you come to understand them in yourself that I am made for, you know, I'm I'm not a you know, maybe not Augustus Caesar, but you you're meant for a special, you're meant for a special calling.
SPEAKER_02Uh that's interesting. Of course, growing up, I I grew up in a very small village, no more than a thousand people. But uh on my mother's side uh from my family, uh uh my grandfather, my great my uh my great-grandfather and my great-great-grandfather, they were all mayors of that small village.
SPEAKER_01Can you talk about can you talk about the village? I want I want people to know exactly where you're from. You're from Cyprus. I was born.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was born in the 50s, uh, that's on the island of Cyprus. And uh at that time, uh even in our house, uh we we had no electricity or running water. So uh but on the other hand, for it for a kid like myself, it was a very comfortable life. My parents always looked after me and they were very protective. Uh but it to me it was a I have very fond memories, it was uh a beautiful life. Uh but then we moved uh when I was 10 years old to a nearby uh city, and uh and clearly that was an eye-opener for me as a kid. Why? Why what happened? Why was why was that different? Well, because uh my father felt very strongly, my dad was a carpenter, but he felt very, very strongly that uh I had to go to the best uh middle school and high school, at least in our area, in our district. And uh uh and he he and my mother instilled in me the importance of education. And uh and I owe that to them. Actually, my mother uh growing up uh he he said uh she would tell me that uh if you don't bring uh good grades, you're gonna bring uh shame to the family. And I was reminded of that again and again and again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a fair amount of pressure for a little kid. It's like, look, the whole family, well, that kind of breathes leadership. I what I I guess it's like, look, little one, the whole family is counting on you to do well. And if you don't, you're in big trouble and you're gonna bring shame on all of us. So bear down and do your homework.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly that was the motto growing up. Yeah. But in terms of leadership, uh Lee, when you asked me, uh, it's only later after I read Xenophone and looking back. I I honestly doing a self-assessment, I believe I had those three necessary traits. I loved learning. Uh I was always interested, uh you know, uh to help colleagues or uh yeah, you have that love for humanity in general. You're not a self-centered person. I'm not. And uh yeah, that drive, that determination to excel. So it really worked well for me.
SPEAKER_01Well, look, you would we are a country, you're an immigrant. We're a country that um we're a country that is blessed by the fact that so many of the people who come here are our leaders. They're very ambitious people. It at the beginning, it was not an easy journey. Even the even our the original settlers, it was not an easy journey. And you know, when when you left, when you came to this country, it still wasn't there's a lot of people who stayed at home, right? Because it's hard and it's not easy to make it here. So that in itself is kind of uh an index of leadership. So can you tell me about your journey and about your you know, about your sense of of of what it takes to what it took to leave your country and come here and what is so important about immigration?
SPEAKER_02Uh uh I came with my wife uh for graduate studies in the United States, but the reason we did, and my father actually encouraged me, is because in 1974, with the Turkish invasion of the island of Cyprus, our families became refugees. We lost everything overnight. And uh and that was a very devastating event. Uh so coming to the United States with uh with my wife, uh, I have to say that we never wanted to identify ourselves as refugees because we didn't want any sympathy expressed because of what we went through. We wanted to make it on our own. I use that word, uh Lee, for the first time writing this book now, to describe myself that I came as a refugee to America. And America welcomed us with open arms. And we had nothing to our names. But going through that experience, and after 10 years since we arrived in the United States, becoming American citizens, naturalized citizens, and looking back, I have to say that, and that's a theme in my book, that America is opportunity and you will not find it anywhere else in the world. But it really works only. The covenant for an immigrant is that when you come here, you work very hard, but also you have to express gratitude and you have to give back. And in my case, uh all the work that I did for the United States Navy and the US government, big technical work, and a big part of it was classified. And also giving the gift of education, making possible the gift of education for so many American students from all walks of life. All my years in academic leadership, being provost and president, I feel that was my giving back to America.
SPEAKER_01That's very moving. And um, you know, the I mean, the university, I mean, it's one of our great universities, you know, uh uh USC, it's a it's a fantastic place. And I'm sure the students were, you know, I'm I'm sure the students were deeply moved, especially the ones who took your leadership class. Did you feel that that was one of the things that you were doing? Did you feel that that was one of the things that you were doing there intentionally, or did your uh ability to teach leadership come from your understanding of Xenophon? To show uh great love of humanity, interest in other people, honor, as well as your continually educating yourself, continually learning, continually uh fighting off and learning from unexpected things. So, how did they learn from you about leadership in particular?
SPEAKER_02Uh uh clearly going through uh the teaching my uh my class uh and uh xenophone, uh it's uh uh I wanted the students to get excited about the importance of the classics. That was part of my motivation teaching this class. Because unfortunately, as you know, the last three decades, uh classical education on an American university campus has been pushed to the margins of the curriculum. And they were branded oppressive and uh all the other nonsense that we hear. Uh the classics is the foundation. It's the foundation of our republic. Our founding fathers were very rooted in the Greco Roman classics. They gave us a constitution for our republic because they knew about the strengths and limitations of the Athenian democracy. They knew very well about the Spartan constitution. And they also the Roman Republic Constitution. So how can you understand the American constitution today without having knowledge from the Greco-Roman classics? Another example I give them in class, I said John Adams, our founding father, was the father of the United States Navy. And he was referring to it as the wooden walls of America. Because he was very well aware that the wooden walls of Themistocles, say in the Straits of Salamis, saved the young democracy of Athens. And that was the most decisive battle of Western civilization.
SPEAKER_01That's fascinating. Would you think about writing? I mean, you've written, I mean, this book, American Trojan, I'm looking as I have it down here. I'm just going to hold it up so everyone can see. Amazingly great book. But it's a very, it's a it's a very it's a very big and brilliant book with a lot going on. Would you ever think about I'm already trying to get you into writing another book while while you've done this one? Would you ever think about doing a book based on that class on Xenophone and talking about the classics and leadership? It's a much smaller book. I'm sorry for trying to give you more work already. But I mean, it would be fantastic. That would be great for college students to have. It would be great for me to have.
SPEAKER_02And Lee, I will reveal here in your program for the first time that I do have a draft ready. Yay, that's great. Which I did before, and I did a pursuit to finalize it. And I'm using it as a material for my class. And then I decided to write this book, American Trojan. But now I will go back to it eventually. That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01I'm overjoyed. You've done work for the Defense Department with different inventions. So what are you doing now? What are you focused on now?
SPEAKER_02I'm back as a professor in the in the School of Engineering. So I teach uh three classes at USC. I I teach uh AI ethics. Uh wow. I do the leadership class, and I also do another class in the area of disruptive technologies with an entrepreneurial mindset. Uh but in addition to that, I follow very, very closely the whole area of semiconductor chips and especially the supply chain, the tensions between the United States and China when it comes to that. Fascinating. Because the brains behind everything in the AI revolution is the semiconductor chips. So that's an area and the supply chain that I follow very closely. And I and I give uh uh I give keynote addresses of many conferences on this topic.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me let me ask them, and this will be the last question: how are we doing? Because people are talking about this all the time, the AI, uh AI race between the US and China, and where we are with semiconductor chips. So where is it right now as we speak in um uh in late spring in 2026?
SPEAKER_02Uh United States, by far, in collaboration with what I would refer to Western democracies, uh, is at least uh six to eight years ahead of China.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Wow, okay. Yes. Uh it doesn't mean we'll stay like that, it's a race. Right. But why we are in terms of the city. Why are we so far ahead? Uh because of the very advanced semiconductor chips. Uh they're so complex you cannot easily copy them. Interesting. And that's why and that's why our Department of Commerce, even with the first uh Trump administration when uh Wilbur Ross uh was the Secretary of Commerce, even back when the first restrictions were imposed for exports to China, that was the reason.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Interesting. So when everyone gets very upset, what was it? Is that everyone is concerned about the Blackwell chips recently and say, oh, this is gonna allow the Chinese, is gonna give them, you know, they'll they'll get a job. But your perspective, but right, but your perspective is no, there's no way even copying that they can uh that they're gonna be able to catch up anytime soon. Why is that? Is it because I mean we're well let's come back to let's come back to leadership and the classics.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I would give uh uh for example, for uh if you take TSMC that they manufacture the chips, the machines that TSMC is using is uh the ASML, the company from the Netherlands. Those machines are not easy to copy for mass production of semiconductor chips. And there is a restriction imposed on those advanced machines by ASML. They are so complex, they are much more complex than uh an Airbus plane, for example. And they and these machines cost close between three to four hundred million dollars. So there are a lot of trade secrets that put together to make it work. But of course, the Chinese are working very hard in that area. They invested three times more money than the US in the RD of semiconductor chips because they want to become fully independent and get ahead if they can, but we're not there yet.
SPEAKER_01Do we have an advantage because we're uh and again comes back to the classics, or because we're an open society?
SPEAKER_02Of course, this is the open entrepreneurial spirit, absolutely. Uh and also being being the magnet for the best and the brightest uh from all from all over the United States and from all over the world. And this is what I would refer to smart immigration, the best and the brightest. You really want them to come here. And become Americans like the rest of us.
SPEAKER_01Max Nikitas, I Max Nikita, I feel, and I'm sure our audience feels too, that they've just that they've just heard from one of the best and the brightest, and that's you going from going from the classics to semiconductor chips. Uh Max, thank you so much for being with us here tonight. Roots, rights, and reason. And thanks to all of you for watching. We'll see you in our next episode. Thank you. It's a pleasure.