3RM Ep. 18 - How Fishing Seasons Get Built: A Step by Step Guide

In this episode sit down with Cary and Anthony and learn how our fisheries actually get set by state, federal, and international agencies. You will learn how the numbers work and build a base level of understanding about the process, so we can use the math to open up recreational opportunities in the future. 

WDFW: https://wdfw.wa.gov/
NOF: https://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/management/north-falcon
Pacific Salmon Treaty: https://www.psc.org/about-us/history-purpose/pacific-salmon-treaty/
Pacific Salmon Commission: https://www.psc.org/
Puget Sound Chinook Management Plan: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/02309

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi, you're listening to the Three Rivers Marine Podcast, a show that brings anglers and mariners down-to-earth advice that helps on and off the water. I'm Anthony Morisi, a fishing rep born and raised in the Pacific Northwest. I'm sitting down with the biggest names in fishing and boating to make your next adventure easier, safer, and more exciting. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Three Rivers Marine podcast. The next couple episodes are gonna be maybe a little bit on the dry side, but a lot of information. So after this year's North of Falcon, um, me, Carrie, Tim, um have kind of been flooded with a lot of people that are kind of taking notice and unhappy a little bit with maybe some of the results on it. And I want to, you know, we're gonna kind of two-part this because some of it is unfortunate. Not all of it is unfortunate. Um so I want to address that a little bit. That'll actually be the next episode, but we get asked a lot, well, what can we what can we do about it? And it's like, well, the season's set. There's there's nothing we can do about it this year. There's a lot of, and then kind of trying to dig into that with a lot of sort of the general public is just a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation on the who, what, when, where, why of how we get to you get to fish on these days for this fish. So this first episode I think we need to have kind of just a reset and understanding of how we manage all of these fisheries basically down to the last fish.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Um and there's there's a lot of data, there's a lot of acronyms, it's a lot of government agencies, so there's a ton of jargon. So we're gonna basically be the dictionary on some of that, and then walk you through very big picture, you know. Hey, West Coast, really Pacific as a whole, down to you know, you don't make it out past the green can at Meadow Point. How do you get to fish? Yeah, exactly. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Uh, and just the whole process behind it is what we're gonna help explain. We're not gonna have all the answers, but uh getting everybody up to speed.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, it's it's important if we're gonna have any type of voice or any type of discussion, it's also really important that everybody understands what we're negotiating on and who we're negotiating with. Um and it isn't it's also more complicated because it isn't the same necessarily in Oregon and Washington and California and Canada, right? We all have sort of our own ability to negotiate, but also different limitations or opportunities for negotiation, which I think adds layers.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I think what was most frustrating for folks that were involved in the process from the beginning here was seeing the forecasts and seeing how positive the forecast was. Uh, but if you look really closely at the forecast for Schnook and and uh specifically Ancoho, which was a really positive, like glimmer of hope and all this, yeah. We have some of the most robust Coho fisheries we've seen in a long time, and the forecast is the highest it's been in 20 years. So that's there is silver linings to all this. But when we look at at face value and everyone saw the forecast and how great that was, it was like, oh, sweet, you know, look at it.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, we're gonna get we're gonna get to fish at at least as much as last year, but really probably more.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, and if you and if you pulled it out and parsed it out and really looked at what that meant, you know, we still manage to wild abundance. So it doesn't matter how productive a certain hatchery system is, a lot of people's anedric reaction and solution is more hatchery fish, more hatchery fish, more hatchery fish. Well, that's great. As long as those hatchery fish are being reared and released on top of fisheries that have a robust enough wild stock. And there's a lot of information out there for folks that um want to look into. Uh you know, you can look back at a at a timeline of the events and when certain fisheries exploded, like the bubble and things like that, and you go back to 2022, and in front of me right now I have this comprehensive management plan for Puget Sound Chinook, and it's a harvest management component, and it was put into place February 7th of 2022. This plan is the groundwork for a lot of the management of stocks. Uh, you keep on hearing about the Nook Sach, the Stiloguamish, and uh the Skycomish or Snohomish, because it's managed as an aggregate, which is the only one.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

And and this is still, you know, before we get in the weeds on you know, Puget Sound Chinook and all of that stuff, let's let's go, let's start big super big picture here. So the the Pacific Ocean is rather vast, but also really small. Um fish obviously don't respect any type of international boundaries. So, you know, we got no fences in the water. No fences in the ocean. So we have to uh well for a long time we didn't. We just everybody did whatever they wanted to, and that turned out to be maybe not the best strategy. Um so in 1985, uh the United States and Canada agreed to uh basically start what is called the Pacific Salmon Commission. They have sixteen members, there's four Canadian members, or you know, really like um it's a 16-person body, is how they phrase it. Four are representatives of the United States, four are representatives of Canada, and there's four alternates each to how you make up your 16. Their job is to represent all people that have an interest in the salmon. So that is recreational anglers like us, commercial, whether that's you know, that's and that's everybody, that's purse stainers, that's gill netters, that's trollers, that's all of the commercial, and tribal interests. Yep. So that that's the whole shoot and match. Um the they operate on treaties that are supposed to last 10 years. Um a couple of years in the 90s, they were unable to actually make agreements. Um, but that hasn't been the case for a while. So our current Pacific Salmon Treaty that we're working on will expire in 2028. Yep. So it's coming up. Um that's so that that that is the the opportunity to try and actually develop sort of this is the base rules that everybody's working on comes from this Pacific Salmon Treaty. Their goal is to manage, and I think a keyword enhance Pacific Salmon stocks. Yeah. Um that that is the mission. So they are all federal level appointees. Um they they are they do change. Um it's not the same people all the time. So that is the overarching, here's kind of the rule book that everybody gets to work on, whether you're a Canadian or an American, um, on salmon. You take it down kind of one next level, which is the Pacific Fisheries Management Council or PFMC. PFMC, yep. That is uh a United States-only council, um, but they are based in Portland, Oregon, but it's actually made up of sort of eight smaller, more regional councils.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Um they don't just talk about salmon.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

No, they should they manage 119 different species of Pacific fish. So that's you know, in terms of United States fishery, uh Pacific fisheries, that is that's the whole shoot and match for us. Yep. Um, you know, that's that's sardines to salmon and everything in between. All of it. Um they recommend fisheries for United States federal waters, which means three to two hundred miles offshore. Yep. Pretty big scope. Um, they have five meetings a year. They were established under the Magnus and Stevens Act, so that's where they were established, how they get their power is basically working under the rules of the Magnus and Stevens Act. Um, and they recommend fish management for federal waters off of California, Oregon, and Washington. And Alaska, I believe. Uh I believe, yeah. Okay, we're gonna double check that. But um, and they manage 119 fish species. So that is our next level. So specific salmon treaty for salmon specifically set, hey, this is what we need to do to enhance the stocks. PFMC's job is to take that information, distill it down to federal water fisheries opportunities up and down the coast. Yep. Um and then we work, um, you know, and the PFMC, we'll talk a little bit more about that. I have my notes. They do not work uh directly with Washington State co-managers being tribal members, but they work closely with them. So they're not the same entity, they don't do the same thing, but they do work in conjunction with each other. Um PFMC also coordinates for like more migratory fish, like a halibut. Um they also have a big hand in the um International Pacific Halibut Council. Yeah, the IPHC. Yep. Um, and then a lot of the tuna commissions as well. We're not gonna worry about tuna today, it's already complicated enough.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Um PFMC is a public process, so you are allowed to go to their meetings. They actually want you to go to their meetings, speak up, have your voice. That's, you know, I mean, I'm gonna add my spin into it a little bit, but that's something that we're missing out on as recreational fishermen is representation there, but we'll talk about that in a little bit. They have 14 voting reps from all of the West Coast states as well as Idaho. Um the council members themselves are appointed by the governors of their respective state and region. Um and they are tribal members. They can be members of law enforcement. Um, they can also be private citizens. So, but they are appointed by the governors. Umce PFMC distills all of their data and carries really good at the data stuff. So once we get into that a little bit, they take all of the data that they decide to recommend to fishery. It goes to the state's Secretary of Commerce. The Secretary of Commerce approves it. Um, and it will go to the National Marine Fisheries Service for final approval. And then it gets enforced by NOAA and the Coast Guard. It's bloody complicated. Yeah, compliance. Um their main constraint, they serve at the pleasure of the Magnus and Steven Act. They're also constrained by the Magnus and Steven Act. So if you aren't unfamiliar with that one, we're gonna talk about it. Um really, really important for fisheries. Bolt decision, Magnus and Steven Act, really, really key stuff. So if you're unfamiliar with that, we'll give you enough. But just go and research it. It is available. So once PFMC kind of decides, that's why this North of Falcon process is kind of in conjunction with the March and April meetings of PFMC, is uh once they say, hey, here's the ocean fisheries, then North of Falcon, WDFW, and our co-managers sort of get to distill down what Puget Sound gets, essentially, for fisheries. Um North of Falcon is there to set Washington recreational and commercial seasons. They work with the tribal co-managers to set the seasons based on PFMC, work on federal waters. And some new verbiage in some of their stuff is that they are charged with setting fair and equitable shares of harvestable salmon throughout the year for all anglers in our state. Recreational and commercial. Recreational and commercial. Um and then they have to set fisheries to meet all of the conservation requirements for all stocks, salmon in this case, under Magnus and Stephen, Bolt decision, tribal co-manager requests, recreational requests, PFMC decisions, NOAA enforcement, ESA, Marine Rammel Protection Act. So this is kind of our call to say, hey, if you think of the department as hosing you, that's all of the constraints that they have to go in and manage in order to even have a fishery. So I'm not here to have an opinion right now on that's good or bad. That's just the reality. That's that is what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah. So we basically we are we have to work within that framework.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Correct. We have no job.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Those are our options. We have to work within that framework. Um and that can benefit us some years and that can hurt us some years. So you it's it's it's hard, and it's I keep on saying complex, but that that is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Um it's it's wildly complex, and that's why we have so many issues with just people not understanding. I don't I don't actually blame anybody for not understanding. I don't understand a lot of it. And I I spend a lot of time trying to learn.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, no, I feel like that's all I do lately is research these documents, and you know, a lot of them are 400 pages. Yeah. Magazine Stevens Act is 170 pages, and there's a lot of really key takeaways from that that are the framework for how allocations are set.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Absolutely. So walk us through now, now let's start small and then let's build backup with supporting data because you're good with data. Let's walk through some of the jar jargon. So in the Puget Sound, if you are, you know, I just my home area is Area 10. So if you're an Area 10 guy and you do all your fishing in Area 10 and that's all you care about, where do you start?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

So you start by the department does a really good job of explaining it when you when you go to the North and Falcon meetings and they explain like you know where we are and how the North Falcon process works and things like that. The one thing I wish they would do a little bit more is um talk about this comprehensive management plan for Puget Sound Chinook. Like it is the groundwork. It is it's it's the key takeaway here because it breaks down all the management units within um the Puget Sound and then their exploitation rates. Uh, which basically exploitation rate is uh the threshold level, but you can't fish them below a certain extent, and you have to stay above that. So, for example, based on forecast abundances, uh, we'll use the Skycomish or Snohomish basin stock as an example here. Let's back up one step.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Where do you want to go? Let's talk about you know, how do you how do you decide exploitation rates? How do you see these forecasts? What are those? Because it's all just math and modeling.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Right?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

It's uh there's a little bit of you know, check-in at the doc that goes into playing it, but there's there's you know let's let's go through these motion conditions, you have uh, you know, smolt trap data and all these things that go into creating what the forecast and abundance are.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, and that in that forecast, there's so the the acronyms are FRAM, and then there's LOAF, which is the list of different fisheries that's after the. I understand that these are some of the things that I think people get confused on.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

So FRAM, and the FRAM basically is uh it's it's the model for the fisheries.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

So this is the whole thing. So everything is based off of this FRAM, which is a fishery regulation assessment model.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah. So that's what we use to determine where our fish are being encountered in the process. Uh and there's a base period, and basically uh FRAM uses coded wire tags. It doesn't use genetic data or anything like that. It uses the base period of a time period. I think right now we're operating um a base period that's over 10 years old, but it takes a number of years to rebuild that base period. Uh and everybody is really eager to update that base period. Uh, I'm kind of of the mindset is we don't won't know what we don't know, and it could be worse for us. We've had a lot more supplemented hatcheries over the past couple years added to the Orca uh fund and one of the increases.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah, when we go to fishing, like it's phenomenal fishing, and yeah, and thank the orcas. You get a lot of hatchery fish. Like, you know, if you if you get one on the line, like your chances are fairly good. You're gonna it's gonna be a marked fit.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

So if if working, you know, we talked a minute ago, like working within the structure. So we have that's the base period we have to work with this current year.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Um, so that's what we had to go off of. And and there's there's people that are frustrated too because that base period and this FRAM model is actually outdated. It's overdue. NOAA has to approve it. There's been government shutdowns and all this other stuff, and they're, you know, what has actually happened is they're dragging their feet on approving it. Whether it's their fault or not, I'm I I'm not a NOAA guy, I don't know. But it's overdue, and that is that is a fact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Um so b basically, um, you know, it's it's all all pre-terminal fisheries operate off of this. So it's like this is what's going around in the waters uh in people's. Yeah, this is something.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

This is basically saying, hey, what's the what's the likelihood that you catch a you know Skycomish River King out of Nea Bay? Yeah. It's kind of like, hey, where do you, you know, trying to understand and quantify where those blue MMs in the bucket are getting caught, how many are getting caught. Yeah, exactly. And that's that's our only way to really try and build the fisheries with the model on that is is the FRAM model.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

So and it gets more complicated when you add that some areas are non-selective harvest, some are selective harvest.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah. Canadian fisheries that are non-selective on the whole. Um really, really complicated. The model is only so good.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah. The the thing that I use the most in this process besides FRAM is these impact summaries. So when you get your first model running uh early on, uh it spits out this Chinook fishery impact summary.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

And and those models are publicly available.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah. Everything is. If you go on uh even right now uh to the Department of Fish and Wildlife website and you look up North of Falcon, it has the North of Falcon overview, the public meeting schedule, the proposed fisheries, forecast model runs and management objectives, even an option for public input if you want to say your piece. But it has everything on there. Um it has the forecasts uh for Columbia River and Puget Sound, all the areas, Greece Harbor, Willapaw, etc. And then the modeling tools that you can work with if you want to uh play with that stuff. So it's it's great. Um, it's all there uh for those for inquiring mice.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, I mean, and it's it's there, but if you don't know what to do with it, then it doesn't really actually even matter if it's there. But so that that Puget Sound Chinook is a lot of those numbers and stuff are based off of the FRAM models. That's that's so when you wonder, hey, how do you get this percentage? How do we stay above this percentage? That is the model that all of this stuff stems from, and we're beholden to. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

And and within within FRAM, there's not just coded wire tag based periods, but there's also timestamps. And when fisheries occur, uh there's four, and it's not like the quarters for taxes or anything like that. It's like April through or April through May, then July through August, and September through December. I don't quote me on what they exactly are I don't have in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah, but those those those quarters, the the actual dates only matter so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So with within that you have your impacts and when they occur. Um but the thing that's constant across all timestamps is the exploitation rates. So the exploitation rates remain the same. So you you can kind of play with things in that way, and that's why fisheries get moved around uh when they can.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah, like like the is Blackmouth a good example of that? It used to be earlier, and now we're getting later in the year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I mean, we we moved it later in the year because of the sublegal constraints and and the unmarked encounter constraints that got added in 2023 as well. Okay. Um so moving that later in the year meant we wouldn't exceed our uh sublegal encounters before we caught a belt quota. So that's same but different. Right. Okay. So uh if if if you it's on on their website uh and um you can look at it and it's the sh uh it's called the Chen 2326 impact summary and it has the exploitation rates and there's a lot of really useful information here and you guys might be wondering like why does Canada, why does Alaska and everything like that?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

There's a lot of that going on. Hey, how come these dudes get to fish when we don't?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

And uh I'm gonna use um the Snohomish because it's been the repeat offender for constrained stocks for the past uh uh four years. So I'm looking here, and um you have your ER ceilings. So the ER ceiling there is the number that is spit out by the um the Puget Sound Chinook management plan, uh, that we are not to exceed that exploitation rate. So for this year, based on abundance, and they had 827 Chinook forecasted for the Snookwalamy Basin and two 2827 for the Skycomish Basin.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

And again, you can't, I I don't know that we can repeat this enough. Washington fisheries are managed on wild abundance, not hatchery abundance.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

It doesn't matter that there's 9,000 hatchery fish returned to the Skycomish basin. What matters is that 2800. Exactly. And more specifically on the Skycomish, what matters is that 82800 on the snow qualm.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah. Yep. And and again, the Snohomish is managed as an aggregate. Yeah. So it doesn't actually there could be 11,000 fish that go into the Skycomish and still 500 that go into the Snow Qualmy, you're just as hosed as you were before.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

You're worse if it's a 500 because then you have an 8% exploitation rate, and then you're even so that it it it's that in the weeds. So it it's it's hard. So that that number 8.3% SUS, so that that is our ceiling. So that's confirmed up there. And you go down the model run source and you look at the stock and the fishery, okay? So I'm looking at it right now. So uh Alaska, Canada. So for the Snohomish total, uh Alaska areas one through three uh have a 0.25% exploitation rate. Canada areas four through 15 have a 9.44% exploitation rate. Uh and if you scroll down that table, you're gonna see that that is the single highest uh source of impacts uh to that basin. No, Canada. Oh, Canada. Yeah, yeah. Canada's it's 9.44%. That's almost 10%, which is pretty impactful. Um you look at the total marine catch uh is 19.56%, and Canada is eating up half half. Uh the whole freshwater fishery uh modeled for that uh in recent years, like with a full season 45 days, June through July, and then the whole coho fishery for Chinook and packs is 0.39%. 0.39, not 9. Like the terminal fishery where those fish are returning, like is so little.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So this is why it's so when we get it shut down, that sucks. Yeah, the other the other kind of thing to add in here is there's a lot of calls. Well, you know, Canada's open, let's go fish Canada. Yeah, you still have to file trip reports, they know you're going, you do all this. We know that hey, this is this nine, this 10% impact. So by just going to Canada and going fishing, yeah, you get to go fishing, but you're also still just hurting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Like it doesn't, it it might feel good, it's fun, yada yada, but like you still yeah, and and you know, to the recreational user as we as we get through that.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

So right now, like that 9.44%, we can't change that. That's gonna get worked out in the Pacific Salmon Treaty for 2028, and and the commissioners are working on that right now as we speak. Like that is that's in the works. Uh so like Area 10, for example, uh the sport fishery uh has a 1.65%, which is not zero. Like, yeah, it's it's impactful. When you get down into the weeds with this stuff, like there's days where it's like 0.1% is the difference between a full fishery and none. And that's that's that's big. That's that's the hard part. Um so you you need to be looking at it from the big picture um and where those impacts are made and how we can carve out opportunity based on those impacts. Um, the the biggest fix for all of us would be following the guiding policy for North Falcon and it's equitable distribution of the impacts across geographical range. Like that would be that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah, that I mean, because it it when you shut down a freshwater fishery that has a very small impact to terminal fishery, it doesn't seem super equitable for someone that you know might live in Sultan.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, doesn't have a boat, doesn't have a boat, has lost steel at fisheries, like you know, it's you know, like that that's as recreational anglers and myself included in that, like you you a closure would be one thing if it was meant something, right? Like it meant that a certain number of fish were gonna make it back.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

And if we're going to sacrifice, we also need to be able to prove that that has worth it.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

And and over the years, you know, a lot of us would be okay with putting our rods down, mooring our boats, and stepping away if it meant that there would be putting something aside for rainy days, right? But but the way it is right now, we're it's uh it's really hard to see that. Yeah. Um and we're approaching uh a weather pattern. Uh yeah, we're we're working into an El Nino cycle, that's which is historically not great for salmon.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

And and we're in a hard spot. So there's some decisions that the agency's gonna have to make uh that are are gonna be tough. Uh and it's gonna get more complicated, and we be maybe more constrained moving forward. Um, and nobody wants to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Um, like we're we we have to fight really, really hard for 2028. Like that's part of the reason why we're getting on here and trying to sort of level set some of these understandings, is all the flooding that happened this winter, bad for wild escapement. Yeah. Bad, bad. And that's that's what we manage to, right? So it doesn't actually matter if the hatcheries are still great, the wild escapement is gonna be worse.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah, and through through the whole process, you know, there's been a lot of um talk about co-manager allocation and distribution, and they get their share, and we get our share, and things like that. And um, it doesn't always seem fair when it happens right in front of your eyes. Like to laylet bubble, for example, you see their catch, expected catch versus our expected catch. But if you zoom out and look at it from a state level, which is how these things are managed, um, in general, uh based on the species, like recreational community catches a lot more than the co-managers, coho specifically. Like we we catch a lot. Yeah, um, so uh just because you see it happening like on to Lelip and things like that, um, with co-manager fisheries, like you gotta look at it from the big perspective. Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I mean, and like, you know, one of the an interesting thing that got brought up was you know, a nooksack fishery.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Oh, there's tons of hatchery fish that roll back into the nooksack. Why can't we fish that? And you know, just as a for example, we have, you know, we have this fishery that exists outside of the terminal area. Those fish roll out into the straits, they roll out into Vancouver Island, they roll out to Nea Bay. So, you know, we have like that's where a lot of those hatchery fish are gonna get intercepted when you have a good season on the ocean and a non-selective fishery. You can keep whatever. So it just like there's so many layers, right? So when you look at your area, Marine Area 10, the Nooksack, the Skycomish, all of this stuff, like there are these opportunities where you're like, well, this seems wrong, and it might be for that area. But again, the state, the feds, they have to manage everything to like all these different things, you know, and it's it's maybe not the the best time to mention this, but like we do have you know, like Chinook in a lot of places are an ESA listed fish. So there's they're they're under a lot more scrutiny when it comes to exploiting them than some other things. And then you have the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which is there to help the sea lions, uh, because they were they were once nearly extinct. Um they're certainly not anymore. So those are two f really big federal constraints that are actually like butting heads and working against each other. When, you know, I think even by some of the the managers' own numbers, it was like 40% of all adult fish coming back to the Columbia are eaten by sea lions.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah. Well, Noah's put out some stuff too where it's like, you know. We produce 40 million hatchery fish in Washington State and 30 million get eaten by harbor seals and sea lions.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah. So I mean that's a smolts. Yeah, that's smolts, it's everything. And you can we can feel however we want about that. I'm just trying to this is a fact-finding mission for us all here. Um and I I of course, as an angler, have an opinion. You're an angler, you're a fishing guide, you have an opinion too. We're we're trying to keep that out of this.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, the NYXec it has a really productive hatcher program. They do they do. Um, but you they have two stocks of concern, which is the north and middle fork and the south fork. Uh, and their low abundance threshold is between 400 and 200 fish, and we are never to exceed a 10.9% exploitation rate. Um, and that's that's that's hard. To add layers to this, you know, there's there's marine areas one through four and marine areas five through thirteen, um, and certain exploitation rate ceilings because we manage from the outside in and not the inside out. I'd be really curious to see what it would be if we manage from the inside out as opposed from the outside in. But the ocean fisheries, as long as they don't exceed a total exploitation rate of six percent, they're allowed to fish. Like go. Um, so they can set their that's why we always wait for the ocean option, things like that. Because once we get those numbers, then we start pulling it apart.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Um Yeah, and when you see ocean options one, two, three, and all this stuff, you know, if you if you are specifically a Puget Sound angler, ocean option one is not for you. Um the more that happens on on the ocean in areas one through four, the more that you are constrained fishing inside of Puget Sound. Um if you if you keep your boat in Westport, Ocean Option One all day, baby. Yeah. You know, you get a full season, you get to do that. So there's that's another layer that you know is is there, right? You have to and the state, again, needs to have equitable access for all of the fisheries. And and I think part of that I'm gonna wait till the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, uh as much as they don't want it to be us, we we don't want it to be us versus them. We want all consent that's I think that's not the goal here.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Um it's setting up. But that that is my point there wasn't to be like, oh, let's go and riot in Westport. It's more um we all need to get on the same page here, right? Like that's an opportunity for division.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

So I just want to point out those opportunities for division because like we're all wrecked guys. We need to get along, and that area of division we need to address and figure out and have some sort of like come to terms so we can have one voice with that.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Um, but that that's a big area of division for Puget Sound salmon fishers versus coastal salmon fishers.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I just want I just want to put that out into the world so no one is left guessing. That is a point of division that we need to address.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, and and there's like I said earlier, there's non-selective fisheries that occur out there that, you know, by all intents and purposes are sustainable. Yeah, oh yeah. Well, I mean, they they don't they they they're under their six percent. Exactly. And we manage to wild abundance. So the Columbia Basin stocks are doing great. But when you get up into the three and four area and you start getting these mixed stock fisheries, which is super complicated to manage, then you have some unintended impacts. Uh and yeah, and you start getting more into that inside Vancouver Island, Fraser River. So many fish are there, they're able to impact them, you know, as long as they don't exceed that ceiling. It's it's there. And uh there's not a lot we can do to change that. Um, you know, uh I don't I don't know what the permanent fix is, uh, but you know, we just want it to be equitable. We just want it to be fair. We want to have opportunities where we can uh sustainably have those opportunities, and that's that's it. It's not about taking something away or shorten somebody's season. It's about setting reasonable seasons to allow for equal opportunity throughout geographical regions. Because you take away salmon and marine areas five through thirteen, and what do you have to fish for? Flatter. Halibut is you know that, but that's also there's open season on unicorns through areas seven through thirteen, right? Like right. Um, so it it's it's just that opportunity that would hopefully be pursuing itself. Um so it's we don't want it to be a big this is not a take up of arms against ocean uh and that kind of stuff, but it's like just looking at it from the big perspective and how how things are allocated uh across the recreational situation.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and and my position on all of this is like I'm a recreational angler myself. I sell tackle for a living, so like that's recreational. Sure. I I don't want to fight with any other recreational angler. I want to try and be on good terms, on the same page, and try and you know, get a better voice for recreational anglers. Yeah, you know, I I I I feel overwhelmingly like we get the short end of the stick on fair and equitable.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yeah. Um well it's it's being construed as a management, or not management, but like uh putting down a rod is like some conservation measure.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

And it's really not. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, if if if restricting recreational fishing was gonna fix these fisheries, it would have been done a long time.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah, we wouldn't be continuing down with the last 25 years of EOC listing not improving. Correct. Because look at our opportunity uh in Puget Sound less.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, it's it's been it's been cut, it's been cut, it's been cut. So with that fact in mind, that's that's that's what we're trying to say here is hey, it's been getting cut, it's been getting cut. And I'm I'm trying to have a video here for people to understand the why. Sure. And it's it's the way that the models work, it's managing down to the last fish, it's it's all of these things. And again, like when you take a look at it, it actually does make sense. Yeah, it's not it's not this like total black box voodoo magic.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

It's all on paper with paper fish as well. So when you uh when you exceed that threshold and that expected catch, that's when all this gets thrown aloof, and it's like, oh wait, like we need to figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

So let's let's let's expand that into another real world example. You fish out of out of Shoshul Bay, you go to Area 10, you come back to the dock. The biologist or you know, Creole Survey person walks down to the dock. How is your fishing today? Oh, it was terrible. We didn't see you know any. Did you release any fish? Did you do any of this? Nope, nope, nope. That that also doesn't really help you. No, it doesn't wrong. It like, and there's like like that is a gigantic trope that goes around. Tell the fish checker we didn't catch anything, we didn't release any fish, and that that it's paper fish, it's paper model. So when they get this report coming back from real world stuff saying, oh, there aren't any undersized fish out there, that is also a red flag and rings alarm bells because it means that that model is not accurate, and then you get shut down faster sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yeah. Um that's why they have the test boats to it's it's basically a litmus test against the creel survey. So it's it's out there and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

So when you get back to the dots, without the test boats just tell them what you did.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Yeah, without the test boats and without the creelers, we wouldn't not be having fisheries. A lot of these fisheries require monitoring in order to occur, and without them, they're not happening.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Period. Yeah, that's that's the funding component, which is almost a whole nother story. Well, and then like to get approval for the permits through NOAA, like it has to have monitoring. Without it, they won't happen. So it's it's yeah, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

That's an ESA thing. So once all those fish got under the ESA, NOAA got involved. Yep, Washington State lost their ability to just exclusively manage their fisheries. Yep. Um, and that is also part of why, you know, and and unfortunately, the Puget Sound is the most like there's the most angler trips out of the Puget Sound, there's the most people that live here. Another consequence of that is our rivers are also the most torn up.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

So, you know, when we're trying to manage fish that are going back to gravel and we got bad gravel, you're just you're just getting it from all angles. Yeah. And that's and that that is the reality that we're living with, right? Is you know, like, okay, yeah, there's 800 fish. I'm not even sure that there's enough gravel in the snow quality for 800 fish to spawn.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

You know, I mean, there is, but like.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

No, I mean, there's a there's tons of projects that are being done to increase habitat and things like that. And you know, having done it for 10 years, you know, been a part of that work when I was at ecology, like, yeah, the habitat, I think a lot of the habitat is there. There's other things that we're not pulling levers on. Uh my big just kind of thing that I noticed is predation control. You know, yeah, they're getting it from comarants, they're getting it from erganthers, they're getting it from pinnipeds, and it's like, you know, even under ideal circumstances with the habitat is there, the populations are at such a low threshold right now that without help, we're going to continue to go down. Yeah. Like there has to be some other supplementation, whether it's conservation hatcheries or things like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Um explain, explain conservation hatchery. Because that in a lot of people's minds, you should think broodstock. Yeah, so uh it's kind of which there were which there were some some legislative measures that were put into place for that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Yeah, so it's it's tangible. It's one and the same. Broodstock is the term that fishermen use. Conservation hatchery is the word that our state uses for explaining it. Uh we have integrated programs, segregated programs, and what those mean, uh segregated versus integrated. So segregated stocks uh were our just using Puget Sound Steelhead, for example, were our Chambers Creek. And it was a fish that could live in a bucket, like a steelhead version of a tilapia. Right? They could be in your bathtub, they could survive any wide range of conditions, they wouldn't eat each other when they're in rearing ponds and things like that, and they were like, oh great, these fish are really hardy, let's put them everywhere. And that happened for 50 years. Yeah, a long time. All over. So that's why even now when they do genetic studies, they still find Chambers Creek all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

And and that, you know, again, I want to try and bring a real world example to that. Chambers Creek stock. Those are those really early fish that you go and catch on Bogashill.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Yeah. Like that's they're that November and December run that we had in every Puget Sound Basin stream, that's what's Chambers Creek. They were they were structured that way. Yeah, they were bred to return early so they would mitigate the impact on wild stocks.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

That is why there's that very like those early fish, they're small, everybody calls them the hatchery rats on the coast, all of that. It's they're that was a decision.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah. Yeah, that was for fishermen, for a recreational community. Uh there's no commercial fishery for steelhead, so that was all purely for a recreational group. So when you when you when you do that, and you've done that for 50 years, you have what's called genetic integration. And those fish start to interbreed, crossbreed with wild component of the run. That's why a lot of these um hatchery programs have been reduced.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, shut down, reduced. Like I think that's the um, you know, we'll go back out to the coast for Steelhead. The um the Kalau hatcheries are getting shut down.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

They're being they're being switched to an integrated program. Okay. So I can talk about integrated programs. So integrated program is there's a difference between integrated program, which is uh and and a conservation hatchery. Integrated program is something that's meant for Harvest, conservation hatchery is meant for wild supplementation independent from harvest. You have to ask yourself, what's the goal? Do you want to help wild fish or do you want to have sustainable harvest? There's just a very distinct line between those two things. You can't have it both ways on certain stocks, right? Um, if it didn't matter, if we weren't managing wild abundance, we would just flood every system with fish, right? Go and do it. Uh but that's not gonna work with ESA. So we have to do it this way. So conservation hatchery meaning you take wild brewed, wild um individuals from that basin. So we'll use um what basin do we want to use, for example? Uh let's use the snow mish just because it's a hot hot topic and I know more about it. So say you have like the snow colony, fall run, which is your biggest constraint. Uh you go and net those fish in basin, uh hook and line, whatever, however you want to collect your brood, and then you go and spawn those fish together, and then you raise them in a hatchery, and then you release them. Uh you can mark them if you want to, so you can monitor them and see where they're encountered in these fisheries as they go out to Alaska and back. Uh and and that's that's how you can know where those fish are caught. Then you can basically design fisheries around that information to not impact those stocks of concern until they get above that threshold. When they're below that threshold, it's you're fighting in the dark.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, you're you're not gonna get anywhere. And that sounds super great. It's a tool. That is not the silver bullet to solve fisheries, it's a tool. It's a tool.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Um and there's there's and that would be a successful conservation hatchery. I wouldn't say that is you know an integrated broodstock program where it's designed to have hatchery, you know, for harvest, like the which which we see a lot of that in Oregon. Yeah, in Oregon. Uh and we have it in Washington, and our integrated programs that will differ, they do it. They do different uh we um Washington State, what they typically do is they they breed a hatchery fish with a wild one, and they're intentionally cross-breeding to select for those traits um of the wild fish. So uh it's increasing the genetic fitness of a wild fish, as opposed to how we used to just take one blanket stock and then put them everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

That's trying to go backwards on a hundred years of hatchery mismanagement throughout the Northwest, right? I mean, this the hatchery program started on the Columbia River over a century ago. Yeah. And there was no understanding of DNA genetics, anything like that. And that we're still back when we were putting dams in everywhere for power, and we were expanding, and we're still being punished by some of those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

We wanted straight running rivers that only went one direction, and we put in levees and did all this stuff. There's a really interesting history of all this. Uh, there's actually a book for a little light reading of anybody's once. It's the by David Montgomery and it's uh the King of Fish, The Thousand Year Run of Salmon. And it goes through that history of uh like uh Atlantic salmon through Europe and then uh how we made the same mistakes here, and it talks a lot about um the history of tribal issues and co-manager disputes and things like that, and how the boat decision was kind of came into play. Like uh it wasn't great, yeah. Um, it's been a long history of trials and tribulations and a lot of things that we wish we did different.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Yeah, so we're still being punished by some of that stuff. So we want to try and rebuild some of that genetics. You know, I had a really interesting, as another tangential story, really interesting conversation with Buzz Ramsey, who you know knows the click a tat, yeah, probably as good or better than anybody. Like so, you know, he's been there forever, he's fished at all this stuff, and you know, have a conversation with him. He goes, Well, you know, we're sitting in his drift boat one morning, we're, you know, fishing wasn't that good, but we were having a good time, and you know, I was like, Buzz, why don't you teach me about the river a little bit? You know, what have you seen? What do you know? And he's like, Well, did you know that the Calicotad actually has seven strains of steelhead in it? I was like, What do you mean? You know? And he's like, Well, there's some of them that are made to spawn in some of our ephemeral streams, which means ones that dry up. You just have pools left, they don't flow year-round. There's some that are made for, you know, main stem spawning. There's some that go into, you know, streams that run all year. Um and, you know, depending on the the conditions of the river, the water, the snowpack, some have really good ears and some have really bad years. But all in all, one of them is gonna do fine. Yeah. Right? And then, you know, when we introduced the hatchery steel head to the click-it, it's just one kind. And I think there it's scamania fish. Yeah. Um which aren't necessarily fit for the click-itat. Because that's a that's a harsh desert river that gets hot, it gets cold, it gets muddy, it gets big, it's got weird creeks that sometimes are there and sometimes aren't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

It's complicated. It's complicated. And that's what, you know, over the millions of years of genetic evolution of these fish and fitness and selecting for that, that's those are considered extinction-proof events. When you have these catastrophic events, you have one stock that's going to carry the torch and make sure that survival continues to happen.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

And and by playing God with the hatcheries and stuff that we've done, we've uh struggled to understand that.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, with all that we've done, uh habitat, hatcheries, hydropower, everything like that, like um hatcheries are becoming that extinction-proof thing. So we need to look at them as a tool. Yeah, 100% uh to supplement wild stocks so we can have and again, like you know, we have uh the rules only matter because we agree that they matter.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Yeah, that's true. So, you know, like you actually can do whatever you want. So we do have the power to try and update some of these constraints, some of these rules to match a little bit of the results that we want to see. Sure. Um, you know, like the the Marine Mammal Protection Act, like all of this stuff, like everything we've talked about basically today started in Reagan. A lot of people listening were alive for that. Yeah. Um it's not that old. No, it's not. Um so that's I I also just want to say that too. Like rules, especially in our country, all of this stuff is living documents. It's meant to be adjusted and changed. So I don't want to just be like, well, we've got this, we're screwed forever because of something that happened in 1985. That's that's not true. It's just important that we all understand where we're it takes time.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

And honestly, to make those changes, to make those rules, uh the yearly North of Falcon process and PFMC, that is not the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Um Yeah, going and doing your public comments and all that stuff there only matter a little bit to be.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

They they help for this year's fisheries. Yeah. Um uh it's not to say that nothing is super insightful and and positive change and progressive ideas are really, really great. But it's gonna take the unity of those constituents coming together and presenting them in a clear and cohesive manner. Um that's gonna be the catalyst for change. Otherwise, we're just chasing our tail. Yeah. And we have to we have to think about that. We have to be proactive and we have to think uh big picture moving forward because everything is managed big picture down to the last spec of sand.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Yeah. And you know, and something, and this this is a decision that we talked about before. We really did not want to get into the weeds on tribal issues. Ultimately, we have enough problems on our own, and also both Kerry and I feel strongly that in Washington State, recreational fishermen have a privilege, co-managers have a right.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Very big distinction, and I don't like Carrie and I are this isn't the platform to try and have an opinion on co-management anything. So it's um if you notice that and that's a question in your head, I wanted to address it. That was a choice. We have other stuff to talk about, other things to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

There's things that we can help uh for short-term gains, uh, and that's not one that we're gonna even.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Yeah. Um so as you get into a lot of this like payback programs and stuff that you're hearing about. My my advice to that is don't spend your time worrying about that. Worry about what you can actually do. Yeah, short, short-term achievable goals. So is there anything else that we missed for this first episode? I feel like we got kind of a good big picture how things are managed. The next episode, which I mean, what you know, we're we're gonna shoot it right now, is gonna be 2026. How did we get here? And then what do we do for 2026, 2027, 2028? Sure. Um and that will have a little bit more opinions, a little bit more stuff, but everybody needed to know the jargon. So when we say, hey, FRAM model, PST, Civic Salmon Treaty, we can just fly through that and everybody has an understanding.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Um the the same links that I'm gonna include um that were already included for you know the Puget Sound Chinook, um, Magnus and Steven Acts, all of that stuff. Keep them up, keep them open so that way, you know, when we're going through it, you can follow along with us. Um and you can see the numbers and you can you can do that. So but I I think that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Okay. Um yeah. Next episode. Thank you for listening. Uh leave us questions, comments. You know, you have access to to both of us and others. So if you if you were left with questions from that episode, make sure to leave them in the comments and we'll be happy to answer them right away. We'll see you next week. Yep. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Three Reverse Marine Podcast. We would like to give a special thanks to our sponsors, Endrun Tackle, make your own bite window. Fisherman's Gold Products, everything we make, we fish ourselves. And Duckworth Boats, legendary adventure.