The Space Between Pressure and Progress

In this episode of Dissertating: In the Trenches and Behind the Scenes, Dr. TiffianyAnn Lundine talks with Dr. Miguel Rubio about mindfulness, mental health, and academic performance during the doctoral journey.

Dr. Rubio shares his personal story of navigating financial hardship, immigration, parenting during COVID, and the pressures of doctoral education while exploring how mindfulness can support focus, resilience, and self-awareness. Together, they discuss academic stress, productivity, perception, and why the doctoral journey often becomes a process of self-exploration as much as scholarship.

This conversation is reflective, honest, and especially meaningful for learners trying to remain grounded while navigating demanding academic work.

Transcript

Dr. TiffianyAnn (00:01)
Welcome back to Dissertating In the Trenches and Behind the Scenes. Today I have with me Dr. Rubio. Dr. Rubio, will you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where do you come from? Give us a little bit of background.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (00:15)
Thank you, Tiffany. And definitely. So my name is Miguel Angel Rubio Romero. That's my full name from my background as a person who was born in Mexico. I'm 43 years of age. I'm pretty much one of the first generations of my family who got first the undergrad to eight, and then of course the master's and finally the PhD. So my family is proud of me. And I have a brother also. He also completed his PhD. So we are both in the first generation. Yeah.

And ⁓ so it is, it's inspirational, know, for a lot of people, of course. And it's very interesting because our background, was pretty much on education. My mom always wanted to get us into, some sort of professional educational programs. And so we got there, we got there. I was 16 when I when I moved to the United States.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (00:44)
That's amazing!

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (01:10)
that's how my experience through the education started of course, even though I was 16 and I came here with no English at all, and nowadays, you I still have my English. I'm still working on it, of course. But it is what it is, my background.

I got my education in pluses because of financial difficulties. I started in a community college. And what happened is I got actually the presidential scholarship, which I was very impressed. I was able to finish my two first years. But then when I transferred my credits to the next coming up university, what happens there is that I started facing financial hardship.

So instead of finishing my program in four years, I ended up ending it in about seven years. So that was one of the things. I took my break of my undergraduates for my masters approximately another seven years. And so what happens, I finish my masters, started in 2017, finished in 2019. And after that, said, I cannot stop it anymore. I have to continue getting to the PhD program.

And just like any person out there who is working on the PhD, we know that sometimes we think we're going to finish in a certain period of time. It's different for everyone. That's what I can say. I did finish it actually within the time of six years, which is typically, you know, the range of time for most of the people. But also I've heard people who have finished them in three years, four years, people 10 years. So that's a fascinating phenomenon. And I think, you know, this program right here, this podcast is very inspirational.

So we can pretty much say that everyone has their own pace. And with that said, because of the study that we completed, which is mindfulness, and it's also very important to determine that first of all, we all have different things that happen in our background. Based on that, sometimes we have to kind of like be mindful of what is happening, and then we just move forward. I study students of mental health-related majors and how they had their own progress through their programs.

And I can see how is it that everyone is struggling differently. yes, in my case, you know, I started my program in 2019. So what happened after it's COVID. I struggled a lot because of the transitioning. There was a lot of things that were happening while I was doing my classes for the PhD.

I used to work for a company which we would do crisis calls so we will attend to the community. And so my hours were Thursdays through Sundays and it was at 4 p.m. to 2 a.m. But at the same time, COVID hit. And so I have my five year old going to

kindergarten, my wife was working and I was helping my kids pretty much to go through his classes online because everything was online and me coming from work on days and very like tired.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (04:18)
That is a heavy load for sure. Especially with the hours that you were keeping 100%. Wow. Wow. So how did you get through some of those things?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (04:29)
So it was, part of it was having of course the support of my family, my wife, my kids. It was the resilience that I created through my life. It was also the inspiration and the motivation that I always had from my mom. She always wanted her kids to have them as professionals. So I always have that on my back of my mind. I always had that sort of...

motivation, was, especially since childhood, my mom, I remember that she wanted us to have the opportunity that she never had. And so she always motivated us, you know, so I can say that that was a huge influence, even though she was not living in my home. But then she'll like visit me and say, how are you doing? How things are going? And I'll talk to her and she'll go like, don't worry about it. You can continue, you know, to do the things as you you can. And then

You just don't stop. And that's what I did. I didn't stop.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (05:25)
I love that. Well, let's go back to your study. what first drew you to the study the relationship between mindfulness, mental health and academic performance?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (05:28)
Uh-huh.

it was very fascinating because when I start, you know, very motivated, of course, on my PhD program and very naive, as you can tell, because most of us go in that direction, thinking that things are going to be easy, which aren't. ⁓ And so initially, when we're going, yes, I know. So when we're going right on our, the classes actually did excellent, you know.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (05:48)
Nope, they are not.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (05:59)
pretty good A's and a couple of B's, which I was very satisfied. And the reality hits when I go to my second residency. the first residency, we're having the conversations about, what type of design and or methodology we want to do, and what are the type of research we have to do, you know, the type of information that they provide you. So when I am presenting my topic of interest back then,

I was interested in studying the sensations and perceptions of actors and actresses. And so the reason why is because since I was a sh- yeah. Since I was a child, I always wanted to do acting. Totally, totally. And I think this is part of the process of the dissertation that you discover things that you never thought you were going to go into that type of direction.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (06:37)
That's very different from what your outcome was.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (06:51)
And so I discovered my second residency. So what happened is that, as I said, I was very passionate since I was a child with acting. So would have my brother and I would do improvised years on our neighborhood. And we would charge our neighbors a few cents for them to see our actings.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (06:51)
right?

Cute.

That's awesome.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (07:16)
So I had the acting, I guess, motivation since I was a child. And so when I go to the program, of course, one of the things that I think I do make the connections is because I worked as a crisis therapist back then. And so I was fascinated by the idea that there's a lot of incidents of people who have this severe depression and end up, unfortunately, ending their lives.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (07:16)
That's awesome.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (07:39)
And so we, part of the therapies, we go to them and try to help them to decrease or take into inpatient facilities, whatever it would be for them. But also when I make the connection when I was doing the studies, a lot of actors end up doing that. And to me, it was fascinating. And so I started doing my literature review on that, on the perceptions and the sensations of actors and actresses.

And so when I go to my first residency, get the impression of this is a great topic. This is fascinating. of course my ego was lifted because I was naive I was very, very pleased that people were okay with the topic, I did my research and so it was a little bit difficult because there was not so much of the literature review.

And so when I go to my second residency, that's when I get the reality hit. So thinking that I have what I need to continue with the perspectives and you go through those types of sequence of steps. And when I go and then I'm in my second residency and then I just get told, I don't know if this is going to be something you'll continue to do because there's lack of evidence, there's lack of research, there's lack of content.

And I was disappointed, of course, because I go like all of these years that I've done all of the things that I've researched and at the end is really not sufficient. And I got paralyzed and I got shocked. it happened through COVID, of course, while I was taking care of my kids. And then there were some unexpected expenses at home because things start to break down. And then, of course, because of COVID, a lot of family members and friends and families

Dr. TiffianyAnn (09:13)
Yeah.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (09:25)
passed away. So there was a lot of things happening, you know, and so me as a therapist, a mental health professional, I always tried my best to keep myself in balance and on check. But at the end of the day, we're humans and we end up suffering as well. And so we we I went through all of that. I had a lot of difficulties trying to find what was going to be my next step.

But then I was lucky to have one of the professors who was also, you know, the providers or the facilitators. And I think they saw me as who I am. Because also one of the things that I had, besides the acting, I always wanted, to get more into mindfulness and more into, living free of pain and suffering, all those types of concepts. And when I used to

Dr. TiffianyAnn (10:02)
⁓

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (10:15)
When I was on my undergraduates, I used to work for a company and then I would see magazines of what's looking like for the future on the mental health. And so they talked about mindfulness and yoga and Tai Chi and all those types of alternative, I guess, medicines as for what we know. And then it seems that that's the direction that the mental health is going in a way. And I was fascinated by them.

And so I would do practice actually mindfulness, you know, because of, the things that I was going through. But I think one of these professors that saw me, that I was going through a lot, I'll sometimes step out of the room and then take a walk and then just breathe and then just, pause and pay attention to the surroundings. And so I think that's what one of the professor observed. And they go, Miguel, have you considered

Dr. TiffianyAnn (10:53)
⁓

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (11:07)
researching on mindfulness and then everything clicked. And when I hear a lot of people saying that we have to be passionate about our topic and sometimes that we are researching things that we are very interested in, even though we try to eliminate our bias and our limitations, we end up doing the things that we like to do anyways. And that was something that I was passionate about.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (11:14)
Yeah.

right?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (11:33)
So I started doing my literature review, scratch from zero. And things start to get better.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (11:40)
Yeah, it's really, it's a phenomenon in itself to me how our topic finds us. And I love what you said about the instructor of that residency who saw you. And maybe they saw you.

as what you've expressed already, this gentleman who is going through, a pandemic, working unusual hours, but then when you're off, your time is no longer spent sleeping and recovering in the difficult way, but now you're helping your children through online education that they've not experienced before. And so,

that circumstance really calls you to action in the space that you researched. I'm projecting too much, but I can imagine that your own personal academic performance and your own personal academic environment

is even though you had all these external things going on, but this is where you really shined through because you had a personal stake in it. And so all of your mindfulness practices and your all of these became very important for you personally. Is that accurate? Do you do you want to add to that? Do you want to take away from that?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (13:06)
No, I think you just nailed it. It is accurate. I would say that since I was a very child, I don't know, you my mom would say this type of things of me, that I was very curious. And curiosity sometimes lead you to trouble, unfortunately, right? Because you always want to investigate. And so my, yeah, right. So I was curious since I was a child.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (13:21)
Right? I get that.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (13:29)
And so my mom would try to redirect me in the best way that she could, of course, but my curiosity was bigger sometimes than my mom's discipline. And so what happens is I start learning how to regulate myself. so, I guess the background back to that as well is that when I moved here to the United States, initially I wanted to be a Air Force pilot. But when I was here, when I was

Dr. TiffianyAnn (13:55)
Okay.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (13:57)
what 18 around there. I was not a US resident at the moment and so I did not have status. And so what happened is when I go and seek for that type of opportunity, they said, you have to be US resident in order for you to be an Air Force pilot. And I go, okay, that's fine. And I go, what will be a second choice for that? So I wanted to be an FBI agent with the same kind of Yes. And I go, okay, so what's going to be the third choice for me?

And then I go, hmm, what is close to FBI? And I go, what about psychology? And then, so my journey with the self-exploration and also the self-regulation was through my first option, which was not possible at the moment, the second, which was not either, but then the third one. And so from there, and sometimes this is how I see it, just the way that the dissertation topic find us also, or the...

Doctoral degree and our education sometimes find us and so if I would have probably gone in any other direction I probably wouldn't be doing the research that I did and So because of the training that I got through my education with psychology which at the beginning I was like, let's see what it's about and then I started to get very fascinated and I go yes This is what I want out of the sudden. I just know that that was

the direction I wanted to go. And so I started to learn, of course, a lot of things that we learned in the, you know, in the education of mental health, psychology and all that. So the part that you were mentioning in which it does find us and then the self-regulation that I was able to have is because of my training is because of the circumstances of the life. And sometimes I think we mix that as not only a PhD,

Dr. TiffianyAnn (15:41)
⁓

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (15:43)
You know, but whatever we're doing in our lives, you know, sometimes the opportunities are just in front of us. And it's just a matter of us of listening, and or being aware just of, the philosophy of the, of the meditation and mindfulness. We have all of our senses open and able to see what are the opportunities up in front of us. And then we just go with the flow of life and life is going to feel as well because we're just going with what is presenting to us.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (15:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (16:11)
And so when I... Yeah.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (16:12)
Man.

So rich, so rich because we can back away from the no's. You experienced many of them, you also experienced many avenues, alternative avenues, But you had to look for those. And the number of times as doctoral learners that we experienced no's.

And then we're like, okay, well, I guess that's a hard press. No, now I don't know what to do. But you demonstrate in your life something different. You demonstrate, okay, that's a no. That just means that that avenue didn't work. Surely there's a different avenue. And I love this about your character for sure.

within this research, this is something that really is responding to something many students experience, Just the way we overcome the obstacles I want to move us towards understanding academic pressure a little bit more.

from your research, what tends to happen cognitively or emotionally when students experience prolonged academic stress?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (17:15)
Yes. one of the things that I can say based on the findings of the research that I had is that time, space, and cultural background has a lot to do with how we perceive stress or pressure or academic performance challenges. I will start first with the one that is the most common for students, time. Because as you know, due dates. Also, we have a time pressure because

Sometimes we associate time with finances as well because how much is a PhD program, And so sometimes we are acting upon the idea that I want to finish as fast as I can so I don't have to like pay back as much of the student loans. I mean, in the back of our minds, unconsciously, that's pretty much what's happening.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (17:50)
Right.

Yep. Yep.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (18:05)
Unless we have the

fortune to just pay our PhDs because it's just like getting a coffee, which is not the case. And I think also it's a great motivation also for people who go through a PhD, the financial part, because sometimes we as humans has to work on the mode of some sort of like stress, some sort of motivation. And if having to pay the less of possible on a PhD program,

Dr. TiffianyAnn (18:11)
Nope.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (18:32)
then that would be a good motivation for people to end their program as fast as possible. But now it goes back to the, I would say, the cultural background, what are your resources at the moment? what are the mental, I guess, mindset that you have at the beginning that you start with the program, through the program, at certain steps or stages of the program, and when you're finishing, typically when we're finishing is when we feel more relieved because now we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

But as we see, we all go through different types of steps within or how we feel on the PhD program. So with students, most of the time was time and they have two types of perception, internalized time and externalized time. and I call them time, internal experiences and then time external experiences. sometimes when we internalize the pressure of time, it manifests in our emotions, it manifests

in our feelings, it manifests on our mindset, the way that we're thinking. And if it's, of course, you know, too much for us, we might have symptoms that might not be healthy, and we might not be concentrating ourselves as best as we can because of that specific way in which we internalize the time pressure of the outside.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (19:47)
Wow. Yeah.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (19:47)
right? And so,

yes. so one of the things that I found out that different students have different skills upon how they will perceive time. One of the students who was the best, I guess, I would say, manager of their time. and of course, it has to do also with experience and the background and all that.

So the student was already a professor of the university. They had their master's with a license on counseling. And then they, of course, going through their PhD. So they already had a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy skills for themselves because they went through the training. And so they also were very time focused and efficiency focused.

And so what happened to them, they said, the way that I ground myself is actually writing everything on a calendar. And then they would put fake due dates for themselves because they were aware of them being parents and having other outside responsibilities. So let's say if the due date was on, let's say four months, they will say that the due date will be in two months. So they'll put themselves into extra, I guess, pressure time.

But once they finished it, then they could have done all the types of things for themselves. But again, that was part of the cultural background. That was another findings that I found because they were, their culture pretty much is more focused on time management. So therefore that cultural background had an influence. So that was an internalized cultural background in which they were aware of it. And then they externalize it through their actions and abilities that they had.

Another thing that I found with students is the space. Also internalize and externalize. What happened with that is that space is also a very complex topic or idea because we typically think of space as dimensional in our third dimensional experience, but also we internalize things.

So for example, like let's say if I am in a place in which for whatever reason I don't feel comfortable, we're already internalizing that idea. And then we start to even department that we put departments of thoughts and departments of ideas and feelings to ourself, to our schemes, to our cognitive, I guess, framework of things. Right. So one of the things with mindfulness is that we we accept, we acknowledge, we are aware of things.

And the part of the acceptance is sometimes when we don't have, let's say, the best space possible to do the things that we can, if we are already kind of having predispositions or not wanting to be okay with, then our performance would not be the best because we're already putting attention to, don't like this type of place. And then also that's the external environmental factor, The space external experience. Now the space internal experience is labeling.

our emotions and our thoughts, Because that experience now we put it in our boxes of pleasant, unpleasant.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (22:55)
Okay, yeah, I get this. think... Go ahead.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (22:56)
And it's up

on the perception of the person if you think about it.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (23:05)
Say that one more time.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (23:08)
It is upon the perception of the person, what is happening to them internally and externally through their time experiences and their space experiences. Also the cultural, which will go on that one, which is more complex, but it is true. It is pretty much up on how we perceive our reality as it is at the moment.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (23:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, so.

One of the factors that I was continuously faced with was I knew, I think it was like after a year of working with my chair

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (23:33)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (23:38)
I had to ask for additional time because I was at the seven year mark that most institutions put for the length of time that it should take you. And so my institution allowed for me to ask for additional time, but I knew that that was never guaranteed. ⁓ I also knew that where I was at in the process,

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (23:38)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (24:04)
That was just a gateway because I knew I was going to need additional time after that. I wasn't going to be able to finish within even a year after that. I knew that going into it. So that immediately.

caused me a lot of stress. Am I going to be able to finish it? Is it worth every effort that I'm putting into this now? Because am I looking at the barrel of a dead end, At this point? And so I don't know if this relates back to what you were saying. So help me guide it back if I need to. But the

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (24:19)
Yes sir.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (24:41)
The times where I was focused on that and dare I say ruminating on the fact that, ⁓ I have such a limited time and it's not guaranteed that the college will allow me additional time, I was not productive. I couldn't focus. I found myself.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (24:48)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (25:01)
making decisions that were not necessarily in the interest of moving forward, but paralyzed. I was paralyzed with it at times. How would you relate that to what you just expressed about the internalized and the externalized perceptions?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (25:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So I would say that based on what I'm hearing from what you said and based on the findings of the study, you had some value to the efforts that you had and you also have values to the challenges that you had, I would say that it will be more of a cultural internalized experience that you had because somehow there is some areas in your life in which you have that type of value. And so, of course, we are humans and we always do our best.

But at the end of the day, also have our fears. We all do have. And so maybe part of that fear was not being able to, I guess, finish it in a certain period of time or whatever it is. But you prove yourself that you could do it anyways. So somehow the balance in between the internal and external, because there's also a third component, which I didn't talk about earlier, because it's complex,

Dr. TiffianyAnn (26:03)
Yes.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (26:11)
Just as we said, for time, space and cultural, we have the internal, the external and the balanced experiences on the three. So which will be time, internal experiences, time balanced experiences and time external experiences. When we balance them both, that's when we are more productive. That's when we are more connected with the environment, with ourselves, with time, with the space, with our background. And so pretty much all of those.

three components of the time, space, and culture, all of the three are pretty much a multi-dimensional mindfulness experience. So the three pretty much combined is a unique personal experience in which we are balanced. We're able to, you know, go ahead.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (26:52)
Hmm.

no, no, I was going to say, so how do you, how do you speak to somebody who is inactive, They're not taking actions to move them forward because they're ruminating. How from your, from your training and from your research, how do you move somebody forward beyond that so that they can move forward?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (27:17)
So the key here is having balanced experiences on all of the three. And it is a self, I guess, work. No one can teach you how to do it for yourself. I mean, we can explain it and talk about it. But if we think about also intrinsic motivations themselves, We have found research in which they said that most of the things that we do and are able to be accomplished because of intrinsic motivation.

The strengths and motivation does have some influence into that, which sometimes actually the strengths and motivation is more powerful, but typically is intrinsic motivation. If we think of those terms, right, when we have internal and external experiences of time, space and cultural, you know, and we try to balance them, it's upon our awareness or personal awareness of where we are at the moment, what are resources that we have access to, what are our skills that we have access to, and then what are their, you know, challenges or weaknesses? What are the things that we have?

work on because we have coming to terms of peace to ourselves on balancing those types of areas in which we are great at and we are not the best at. So we're able to pretty much make those types of self explorations and I would say that PhD is one of the best self explorations experiences that we can have.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (28:28)
Yeah.

I love this and thank you very much for bringing in the third component because and causing us to understand that there is a balance that we each have to individually find, ⁓ Because of the many, many different variables that come into play with that. And rather than just assuming that it's one thing, like it's just discipline or just time management, it's not just those things. ⁓

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (28:36)
Thanks, man.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (28:53)
balance,

as you said, of three major factors. within that list, whatever, because it's probably true. But going back to what you said, it's perception, I want to go into this mindfulness and the academic performance a little bit. When people hear mindfulness, they often think about, as I do,

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (29:01)
I'm

⁓

Dr. TiffianyAnn (29:17)
I just even practiced the other day. was like, let me do some box breathing because I'm feeling some anxiety and it was, it was temporarily helpful. You know, but, so I personally think of mindfulness as relaxation, but in your research, it connects it to academic performance. What does the evidence show about how mindfulness influences learning and focus?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (29:33)
Nothing.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so pretty much most of the research, if not all, but most of the research points out that mindfulness practices improves not just academic performance, pretty much our life. Pretty much our life. But since I was doing the research on academic performance and mental health, the students who practice mindfulness and they are on mental health. So think of that also. There are some of the things that we

As mental health providers people have the perception as of they have their lives balance Well, we're humans so we go through those types of things right of being with sometimes We're not balanced who we start have to perform students, they seems to be that they're doing okay, but we don't know their lives, The literature review pretty much was upon Nurses students and how much stress they had

Dr. TiffianyAnn (30:16)
Hmm.

Yep.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (30:35)
in their programs and when they start practicing mindfulness, they started to have better improvements on their mental health, of course, and then their academic performance. So that was kind of like the background from that. So with the findings, we just pretty much connected the idea of mindfulness, And also how the perception, we go back to that in which

As you mentioned, most of us think of mindfulness as relaxation, which is part of it. One of the gaps in the research that I had is that we have a Western perspective of mindfulness. I had two theories actually that I have to break down in order for me to come to the ideas and then the findings that I have.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (31:10)
Okay, tell me more.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (31:20)
So we have the Western perspectives of mindfulness, is mostly the sub regulations of emotions, thoughts and behaviors. Very Westernized, very cognitive behavioral type, and which is actually very useful. But the core and then the philosophical essence of mindfulness is being considered lost in translation. And so a lot of research that, you know, I did the literature review, we're saying that we still have a lot to find on that gap of that loss and translation.

A lot of things that happen is people confuse attention and awareness, which are two concepts that are very similar, but they're not the same. And so what happens here is that when I started doing more of the research on the Eastern perspectives, the Buddhism and all that. So just to think about it, mindfulness is just one of the eight ways in which we can regulate and also be centered in our lives.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (31:58)
Mmm.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (32:14)
So we're still missing seven more components. That is just something to present. Yes. So as far as mindfulness, we have a lot of research to do still. One of the things that I can say is that the acceptance is probably one of the most difficult tasks that we have, especially in our Western world. Because think about it. Well, it's cultural base. Goes back to the cultural internal experiences and external experiences when we balance them.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (32:34)
do you think that is?

Okay, tell me more though. do you see in the Western culture? Because most of us, I mean, I'm speaking to a broad audience and they could be under various different cultures. But I will say that my day-to-day conversations are very Westernized, tell me a little bit more about this.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (32:45)
Of course.

with me.

Yes.

Okay, so first of all, what I'm gonna say here is not that one or the other or any other type of culture is better or worse. It's just the complementation of all of the cultures. But based upon what is a reality worldwide, I mean, right now we are having this podcast through internet and then all of this technology, in a way, the Western world has...

Dr. TiffianyAnn (33:14)
I love that.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (33:29)
made progress to up to the point that we can make this type of connections, In a different distance, you know, based on all that, but also because of the time perception of the Western world. that is one thing. also the space perception of the Western world, also the way in which we organize a society in the Western world. So it goes back to our cultural, internal experiences and sometimes our external experiences as well. How is it that we balance them?

Dr. TiffianyAnn (33:49)
Hmm.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (33:56)
what I can say with the perceptions of mindfulness in the Western world is because we already so stimulated. I mean, think about it. We were nine to five, typically, most of us. then we have all of these, responsibilities, the finances, you name it. we are so used to pretty much live this lifestyle or this type of life.

that we are not really seeing all the things that are pretty much in front of our eyes. Because we already programmed, to just go, go, We're programmed to just perform. And I would like to say that we're a performance, but it's more of productivity. Typically, we want to measure performance as far as numbers here in the Western world. Which it works, in a certain way, but then what is happening to us is it's going to affect, in many cases, mental health.

the way that we feel about life.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (34:48)
Hmm, yeah.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (34:50)
in comparison to other places in which life is a little bit more relaxed, They might not have a lot of things that we have on the Western world, but that's their lifestyle.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (35:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (35:04)
And so it's up on, you know, pretty much, of course, the background, The background of the cultural, I guess, values of things. what we found is that I actually had an interesting student who was from Africa and so from the country of Uganda, and they were on onboarding schooling. they had their process of learning and

He said that when he moved to the United States, he felt disconnected. And I kind of relate to him on that because when I came from Mexico to here, there was a lot of changes that I have to accommodate with. And so he said that his academic performance worsened when he moved to the United States and he had to learn how to adapt. he found that cultural balance enabled for him to kind of continue with it.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (35:51)
Hmm.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (35:51)
And so

perceptions of time for him was different. Perceptions of space for him were different as well. Just think about it. In his family, he will have to have a room and then have like five family members in a room.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (36:04)
Wow. mindfulness, if I understand this correctly, then is less of a relaxation, but more of a shift in our perception. Is that accurate?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (36:10)
Mm-hmm.

So

it's very accurate. Well, let me see it. So the perception is actually upon our ability to observe things naturally. we learned that in science, natural observation. natural observation is just seeing things as they are and not having a bias or an input into it because of our cultural background. like my study, when I did it, even though I have my background, I eliminated as much of my bias as I could.

to like reduce as much of the limitations. We all do have them anyways, that's part of the studies. But in the attempt of that, we attempt to do that balance of the cultural. Now, going back to what mindfulness is, is just being here in the present moment, Now upon that, we want to experience typically want to experience joy, know, and or happiness. And typically that's the result when we are balanced within

or emotions or thoughts or behaviors, that's the Western worldview, but also within our acceptance, our awareness and our attention of the environment, that will be the Eastern perspectives, But as humans, we are so complex that I need some of my recommendations to explore more than the Eastern and the Western perspectives. Because how about maybe Native Americans' perspectives on mindfulness, Or any other type of culture,

Dr. TiffianyAnn (37:31)
Yes. Yeah.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (37:35)
that's kind of like still on the gap on the lost in translation. I would say that the gap in there, it's because we still are pretty much young in the research of mindfulness. Think about it. Pretty much the mindfulness wave came to the United States in the 1970s. And you might be saying, it's been a long time, But it gradually has been more of the interest on research for academics.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (37:54)
Wow.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (38:01)
academic research and scholars.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (38:04)
Well, and

you say a long time. think that that's a very short time. I thought we were exposed to it much earlier. That's interesting.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (38:13)
Yeah, so I

that think about the traditions of the Buddhism or the mindfulness typically are back in, I forgot the ageing, it's 300 years before Christ, I believe, somewhere around there. So it was way before. And so they already established their philosophy back then. And so based upon their teachings and philosophies, they continue and

You know, they pretty much followed that type of philosophy, but bringing it to the Western world. And so we have been, and this is kind of the culture, it goes back also to the sort of collective consciousness. We have already went through a lot of cultural assimilations through our living settings. And then when we have another culture coming to us and then they showing us the way of seeing life.

then it does take time. It does take time for that type of assimilation just to be able to open our eyes and, be pretty much perceptive of a different perspective of life. So when we go again about the perceptions, it is more upon. I mean, first of all, right, we form our identity because of the people that we are born with. So my name is because my mom put me this name. You my first language is because of the region that I was born,

and then my education and all that. And so all of those types of things come into the form of identity that I have at this point. But then I come here to the United States, which adds up also to my personality, to the way I perceive the world. So coming here to the United States enhanced and brought the way I see the world.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (39:53)
So let's talk about as far as mindfulness and how it could improve learning and focus specifically to cognitive clarity or productivity. Can you give us an example of something?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (40:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

okay. the enhancement of cognitive abilities with mindfulness, what put it in perspective? Well, first of all, we have different modes of learning, People are visual, people are auditory, people have combinations of it, people are hands on, people are different based upon, you know, of course, how they were raised and how is it that they develop their skills, right? So that's one thing.

So getting to know yourself the best that you can, of course, will be a good start point to see what are your skills and your abilities to improve your mental health and also your cognitive performance or your cognitive abilities. So.

just as anything that we start with, the beginning is a scratch, the beginning is difficult, the beginning is uncertain. But as we start to build up things, we start to get better and better and better, if we go in terms of psychology, you know, the prime sort of three fears that we have as humans is fear to the change, the unknown, and chaos.

And that's pretty much a biological defense mechanism that we have. Because in order for us to survive, right, we can see that. So because we want to survive, we want to have offspring, we want our species to continue, but therefore we have to be safe. So therefore we have here seduced type of things, the change to non-chaos. Now, when we are, that's pretty much on the back of our brain, you know, in the...

Dr. TiffianyAnn (41:05)
Okay, okay.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (41:27)
unconscious mode because we have always activated that fear sort of like factor just to survive. We are very complex humans, then we have the second layer of our mind or our brain in which it's the emotional, the social, the collective, the one in which we form in groups, pretty much like if we call it the mammal, pretty much like brain type of, And because of the way that we are biologically designed, that's the way that we have this type of

brain. If we see it in the animal kingdom of mammals, typically the offspring needs to be with their caregivers for a certain period of time until they're sufficient enough to survive on themselves. So that we make naturally this type of connections is part of our wiring in our biological mindset. But then we go to the next layer, which is the most complex layer.

the executive thinking, the prefrontal lobe the way in which we pretty much operate with our thoughts, how is it that we organize the information that we get, but then that processing from the fear to the social being and the connecting with the environment to the task person type of, way that we want to organize and perform because that's a word that, I always want to kind of evaluate, but moving from that type of

You know, when we have fear and sometimes we don't recognize it, why? It's because we haven't had enough time for us to center ourselves and look inside of us. So the metacognitive process is thinking of our thoughts and see sometimes the mindfulness in the Western world is misunderstood as, if it's just like not having thoughts and relaxing, but it's actually on the Eastern world telling us that, no, let the thoughts be there and then see them, observe them.

accept them and see why is it that we have them there. So we're getting into a self-analytical process pretty much. We're self-analyzing and then we're seeing ourselves in the way in which we are we at this moment and then from there because now we have established the ground then we can move forward.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (43:33)
Yes. All I can say is yes. That was such a great explanation. So mindfulness isn't just about feeling calmer. It can actually support how people think and learn. I love this.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (43:46)
Yes.

So it's very complex. You know, that's why we call it the multidimensional and mindfulness experiences. Because if we just put it in terms of the findings of time, because we live in this true reality and we move on the time frame, chronological time frame because of the way we age and all that, the space in which the directions that we move, which is pretty much in six different directions. But then our culture is integrated within our experience of time, experiences of space and experiences that we have from our ancestors.

in terms of car young in terms of our current present as well and what is it that we're know heading we're heading towards so it's very complex and that's what we're saying that we still

Dr. TiffianyAnn (44:24)
Yeah, I mean,

I already feel like we don't have enough time to cover it all. But I love the way you ended that. That was beautiful. And I think it's a good I think it's a good thing for us to sit with. ⁓ So thank you so very much for that. doctoral students. ⁓

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (44:29)
Hehehehehe

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (44:50)
Juggling heavy workloads, what are one or two mindfulness practices they could realistically incorporate into their daily routines?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (44:55)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, so I will say this as fast as I can. So we go back to the cultural, internal and external experiences so we can balance them. Some people will go to actually organizing themselves in their calendars, you know, and that gives them the mindset of, oh, I have nothing else to do because I have finished it. But it's up on personality if you think about it. then if people, it's more of like, okay, I'm going to let that, dissertation aside for two days at least, and see

What happens? Because as we know, sometimes we need time to kind of like connect the ideas and then we go to that direction. And it goes back again, you know, what is it that we are putting the effort on to finish a maybe two paragraphs just to submit it to our share and because we want the okay of it, right. But then what is it that actually we need to do? And as we see it, the chair the methodologies, your content expert.

or your dissertation already went through all of this type of efforts and challenges. So they have a metacognitive sense of their process and then they see you as how they were before. So typically they want to support you. Most of the times and the experiences that I have, most of them they want to support you. But it's upon our internalized conceptualization of what is there that they're doing to us. And if we take it personal, then we might be like, no, I don't want to do it.

Or maybe if we go like, okay, they're helping me, but I don't know how to do it. And then we're open to ask for those questions. Because in many cases, they're just waiting for the opportunity for us to ask them questions. And they typically go like, let's make sure that we have a good question because we want to nail it down as much as we can. But in schooling, from our education, from elementary and middle school and high school and even undergraduates, we don't really have the training on how to ask questions.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (46:56)
hmm, this is, I keep coming back to this. What's a good question? Like I seem to revisit this daily with people and so, and it's not just the question of the research, but it's how do I question my committee so that I get the answers that I need? I think I had to ask and reframe.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (47:04)
Mm-hmm.

Aha. Yes.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (47:17)
questions with my chair often because I wasn't getting the answers that I needed. I'm like, let me try that one again.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (47:19)
Thank you.

Yeah.

What I can say is that because we still learn the self-exploration, If we are in the three modes of the brain, Sometimes we don't know how to ask a question because we don't know how we are doing right now. Sometimes we don't do that. We don't know how we're doing. We think we're doing okay, but we're pretty much performing because of the task. But we're not performing because of...

but we're not performing because of our passion.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (47:52)
I absolutely love that. Because we miss the purpose of it, what we're doing and the passion. And it goes back to your why, Why are you doing this?

we get so caught up in the grades and the time and the things, the tactical things that we can see, that we can put our hands on, And then I think we lose focus and we lose sight of that purpose,

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (48:23)
the direction of how is it that we remove ourselves on that mindset of wanting to perform just because of the timing to the actual passion performance?

Dr. TiffianyAnn (48:34)
Yeah,

how do we unravel this? So that when I when I'm in the space, and I could say, okay, I'm, I'm measuring my performance based upon external factors. I forgot that I'm at the center of all of this.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (48:37)
I see it.

haha

I see it.

Aha, which is part experience.

so how do we learn how to write?

Dr. TiffianyAnn (48:59)
practice.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (49:01)
Yes, but we have

to have the language first, So we actually were pre-exposed first to some other skills. We got into the technical writing because first we have the ears, We have the, the tongue and we have all of these skills for us to be able to speak. So we make a, I guess, what's the word I want to use? We learn through association pretty much. You know, this is a psychology term, first of all,

Dr. TiffianyAnn (49:04)
Okay.

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (49:26)
the language that we're exposed to, we start doing those codings because of the exposure of the environment, And then from there, because now we're able to speak, now we can recognize the sounds. When we are able to recognize the sounds, now we can recognize how to do the symbol. And then when we do the symbol, we can connect them all and then now we know how to write, there is a pre and pre sometimes processes sometimes to engaging into the actual writing,

when we are pretty much going through a lot of things in our lives, let's say I'm a student right now, right? And then let's say I'm working on my proposal defense. I was there, but not yet. And so I'm thinking that I have to pretty much, complete chapter three, that way I can demonstrate that I have the abilities and skills, in order for me to be here,

Right now, I had to have my masters. Some people don't have their masters. They go straight from the undergraduate to their masters. So sometimes we have to recollect all of the knowledge that we have. And sometimes that goes to the, what is the name of this syndrome? Come on, Miguel. We all get it typically. The imposter syndrome. Sometimes we put ourselves down because we don't feel sufficient enough. And we already have that knowledge.

So it's just matter of learning how to learn the new system, which is writing. We already have the language. So with education and PhD, and we typically get no, the more that we learn, the less that we feel that we know, but we already know some things. And sometimes we just have to have that intrinsic motivation that self-esteem, that ability to see, yes, even though I don't have the greatest skills, but I have some skills here that I can push forward and get better and better and better.

So if asking how to move from point A to point B, you're probably already on eight and a half. Maybe you just have to do some more steps and get to point B. But also we can see that there is not always a linear way of finishing our programs because COVID happens, life happens, everything happens. But it's upon, you know, are we losing track of our directions,

Another way I can put it in terms of an analogy is that if we're going from point A to point B, let's say like driving wise, If we take like, let's say from here to Los Angeles, We're driving. But then if we have everything set up, we have the full tank and we have everything going on, what if we have a flat tire? What is our next step? Do we want to continue driving with the flat tire?

Do we want to call our insurance so they can change our tire? Well, that might take like three hours to get there and change our

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (52:09)
what it is is that we have to see what our skills are, have to see what our resources are, we have to see also our challenges, or disadvantage and be, open and okay with it. Do what we can with what you have and eventually you get there. if it's four years, if it's 10 years, if it's whatever time, you'll get there if you have consistency.

What type of resources do you have? Do you have the spare tire or not?

Dr. TiffianyAnn (52:34)
What would you change in the culture of graduate education if mindfulness was normalized? Or what would change?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (52:41)
Hmm.

As far as you mean how people experience their PhD program?

Dr. TiffianyAnn (52:47)
Yeah, if mindfulness was core to the culture of graduate education, what would be normalized?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (52:51)
Thank you.

I see what you're saying.

I'm actually contemplating the idea to integrate mindfulness curriculum to different types of programs for not just PhD but also undergraduates. Because when you're getting to the undergraduates, now it's full commitment. You're an adult and typically it's mostly your responsibility. It's no longer your parents. Your parents guide you through the process, But it's not like real life situations in which now you have to kind of like make those type of decisions.

And I think undergraduate is a good start point for people to integrate mindfulness. So they are more relaxed about, you know, what's happening. And I'm saying relax, you know, because more of like reality based, accepting the things as they are and having a better, broader perspective of actually what it entails to go through a program. But also, knowing that with the resources that are provided, with the specific skills that the person has.

And it's possible, like I said, you know, it took me seven years to finish my undergraduate, but I did it. Right. And then I took seven years of a break with my undergraduates, my masters, and I finished my masters with no issues. And then my PhD in six years time is different for everyone. And so therefore, as far as internalized externalized or balance experience, I'm okay with the time that I did on the right under my grant undergraduates, because my main focus was, to provide for the family.

So family was more important than education, but education continued to be a goal that I finished.

Dr. TiffianyAnn (54:23)
Yeah, I mean, I get that. I totally get that. Mine was always the top priority

I really appreciate you sharing your research and the insights that you gained along the way. And thank you so very much for digging in, especially in that last part, helping me dig through that question, because I think you said some really impactful things for our audience during that time. And so I thank you again.

for meeting with me and helping me to navigate through this conversation today. And is there anything left that you would like to say to our listeners today?

Miguel Ángel Rubio, Ph.D. (55:01)
So I would say that if you're going through a PhD program and you think things are hard, that times are challenging, you're supposed to go through that, take it as a lesson and actually see inside of you and see what is that you need to do. Because sometimes we can't just take a break. That's okay. the timeframe might be just an illusion for us because it's up on our perspective. It might be that because once you take that break, instead of taking you

five, seven years, it might be in four years. I don't know, because sometimes we just need to settle and just have more grounded, I guess, self and just perform the way that we need to do.