Progress Doesn't Always Look Like a Milestone

Many doctoral learners measure success by grades, milestones, and how quickly they finish. But what if progress looks different than we think?

In this episode, Dr. Amanda Cason shares how her definition of success evolved throughout her doctoral journey. Together, we explore the challenges of comparison, the emotional weight of feedback, the importance of trusting yourself, and the lasting influence of a supportive dissertation chair. Dr. Cason reminds us that some of the most meaningful progress happens long before anyone else can see it.

Whether you're just beginning your doctorate or deep in the dissertation process, this conversation offers encouragement to stay focused on your own journey, one step at a time.

Transcript

TiffianyAnn Lundine (00:01)
Welcome back to dissertating in the trenches and behind the scenes. You know, this podcast is where we explore the real stories, and those are the stories behind the doctoral journey.

Many people have said that they begin a doctorate, believing success is measured by grades and milestones. Maybe that resonates with you. My guest today, Dr. Amanda Cason has also resonated with her. Dr. Cason entered her doctoral program though with a determination, humility, and love for education. Along the way, she discovered that progress isn't always measured by

Perfect grades or checking off the milestones. In this conversation, Dr. Cason talks about the subtle ways of the doctoral journey that transforms us into stronger scholars and stronger people. So if you've ever measured yourself by the next milestone, this conversation may just be for you today.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (01:08)
Dr. Cason welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited you're here and available for a conversation. I think many doctoral learners focus on earning their degree, but often don't realize just how much the journey itself changes them. And we've had conversations about this I'm super excited that you get to be the one that tells us what that looked like for you. and

Amanda (01:12)
Thank you.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (01:33)
I know that this takes some reflection because you have to remember what you went through and ⁓ even from the beginning, but maybe you're like me, like I remember certain moments in my first class, my very first class that just stuck with me, to this very day. Soup silly questions like, what's the difference between a scholar and a learner? kind of a thing, you'd you know?

Amanda (01:36)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha!

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (01:58)
And how things

Amanda (01:58)
Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (01:59)
redefined over time. can you help our listeners understand ⁓ from your point of view, this identity shifts is what I really want to talk about today. ⁓ so initially, what led you into pursuing a doctorate in the first place?

Amanda (02:11)
Yeah.

that's a great question. So I, from the age of 17, I remember it was like, was before I was about to graduate high school. I knew I wanted a doctorate. I didn't know exactly what I wanted it in. I just wanted a doctorate and I always loved education. So my grandma, she was actually a, she was a teacher and she was a principal in the Philippines. So she was very big on education and she got me

very passionate about education from a young age as well. I remember during the summers, I would visit her and I would stay at her home for about a month and she would have like those kindergarten to first grade or whatever grade I was in, she'd have those workbooks and she would be teaching me math, she would be teaching me writing and her passion I think just kind of ended up in my heart as well. And so I always knew I wanted to doctor it and

I remember after getting my bachelor's degree, I didn't wait too long to go for my master's. I think there was about a five month break in between bachelor's to master's. And then after that, I think it was about a six to seven month period between master's and going for my PhD. So that was something that I knew from a young age that I wanted. And I think as the years went on, as my degrees kind of evolved, it started off by bachelor's in political science.

I think around junior or senior year, I was more interested in education and then it became psychology. So that was kind of how that happened.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (03:36)
amazing 17 years old I mean I I mean we all have l little childhood dreams I want to be a firefighter I want to be a nurse right we always have those and some some play out some don't right some are a flash in the pan but at 17 what did you understand

Amanda (03:37)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (03:55)
what it meant to ⁓ have a doctorate as far as your the role that you p would play in society at the at seventeen, did you have some kind of picture of what that might look like?

Amanda (04:06)
I don't think so. I think I was just more so passionate about education and I just wanted the highest degree possible and I knew that was the highest degree you could get in education. So that was where my mindset was. It's actually kind of funny because when I was in high school, I think that's when the education part of my interest came into play. But when I was seven, I wanted to be an actress and that never happened. But I would say that I didn't fully understand what it meant and I didn't fully understand

what the journey was going to be. And it came along with a lot of fun surprises, which I know we're going to talk about today. But that was where it all started.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (04:41)
I love it. the passion that you had for education and then ⁓ to blindly step into something, And I mean you think we've talked about this a few times from ⁓ one person to another, that you think based upon the conditioning that you've had from an academic standpoint, bachelor's to masters, that the doctorate is gonna look very similar to that, like, I got this.

Amanda (04:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (05:06)
So can you describe

Amanda (05:06)
Yeah, yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (05:07)
what you thought success would look like as you first entered the program?

Amanda (05:12)
Yeah, so I think a lot of us going into this PhD program were very used to getting straight A's, perfect scores, even through our bachelor's and master's degrees. I think that's what success even meant for me because when I was in high school, I remember I had, I believe it was a 4.2 GPA. was used to a lot of the tests that we would take in high school, they would grade it on a curve. And because I was above the curve, I'd be getting

117 % on assignments, which that doesn't happen in a PhD program. So I was pretty much, I thought, know, as long as you work really hard, you're going to get those grades that you want. And when I went into the PhD program, I thought grades was a big thing. And we'll probably talk about it a little bit more that it ended up not being the most important thing. The most important thing was finishing the journey.

And at the end of the day, a lot of times the grades didn't necessarily matter, especially towards the end. And yeah, those were kind of the, I guess the number one thing that success meant to me was passing those classes with A's. That's all I had in my mind as far as success.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (06:19)
Okay, so that was the ultimate supreme, right? Like was an A and that proved your work as a student?

Amanda (06:22)
Yeah, yeah.

It did. I think I really tied my identity around my academic success. And for me, it was always grades growing up. And then I tried bringing it in that same mentality into the PhD program at the beginning. And I would say at the beginning, when it's a lot of coursework, the A's were a little bit, ⁓ like you would see them more often, but then when you actually got into the dissertation part of it.

That's when the mentality of success ended up changing a lot.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (06:55)
Interesting. tying this into like how sometimes we kind of go about searching for our topic and why we're doing the doctorate in the first place. I know that this was an academic achievement for you, but was there some motivation that was moved by impact or achievement or service?

Amanda (07:09)
Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (07:16)
leadership or something else that you could see yourself in the community early on in the program.

Amanda (07:22)
Early on, I think I just really wanted that degree. I'm one of those people where I always have these goals, but these big goals, and I think I focus on what the next big goal is. So for me, was, I just want that degree. And I do remember it was funny because I remember I would have family members ask me, what are you gonna do after you get that degree? And I'm just like, I don't wanna focus on that right now.

I just want to get that degree. now that I'm outside of the PhD program, my next big goal is get out of student loan debt. And I've been focusing on that. And I think that whenever I focus on one big goal at a time, I'm a lot better at achieving it. And so that was just kind of my mentality going into the program was I just wanted to finish the degree. And then I just wanted to make sure. So my main focus was just working, school. That was pretty much it.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (08:07)
I'm curious

Because that's not wrong. ⁓ I mean, let me just ⁓ put it out there, that's not wrong. There's a lot of us that work towards the the achievement of the goal. I wanna run a marathon so that I can say I ran a marathon, not because I think it's fun or because I wanna do those things. Just wanna say I did it, and that's okay, But ⁓ so I'm wondering, did that

Amanda (08:10)
yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (08:31)
Did you have any difficulties coming up with a dissertation topic? If that was the goal? I'm just curious.

Amanda (08:38)
So I did know that because I do love education so much, I know that my focus was gonna be on education and it ended up being on education. And I think it was kind of more so doing the research and I had an idea of what I wanted going into it because at the time I was a preschool teacher so I wanted to focus it on, or I was working, yeah, with younger kids so I wanted to focus on that as a topic but it kind of evolved as I did more of the research and kind of saw like where

where the gaps in research were. So I had an idea of exactly like what I wanted to study. I went in there knowing what the topic was gonna be and then it ended up staying relatively in the same topic, but it stayed in education, but it kind of steered a little bit. And I was pretty happy with that. think that was one of the fun things about doing the dissertation is that allowing the research to take you in the direction that is actually needed.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (09:29)
Mm. Did you have any assumptions about the doctoral program

Amanda (09:37)
think when I went into the program, I knew it was gonna be a lot bigger than just, you know, my previous degrees. I think I knew in a lot of ways it was gonna be unknown waters that I was going into. So when I went into the first class, I remember kind of just reading the rubrics and understanding the assignments and.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (09:33)
⁓

Amanda (09:56)
I would just follow the assignments. I didn't necessarily know exactly what the purpose of each assignment was because a lot of it was just building up to your actual study, which I didn't know what my study completely was at the time. But I know going into it, I assumed it was gonna be a lot bigger and more challenging than the other degrees. I knew that and I think it was, I felt like in a lot of ways I was just kind of going in, just saying, okay, let's take it one step at a time and let's figure it out.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (10:23)
I love that and you are very goal driven, very focused on one step leads to another and I love this about you. as you work through the process I find this process to be very transformational, not of just the like an unexpected way it's

Amanda (10:25)
Mm-hmm.

yeah, yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (10:41)
as you moved through the coursework research and ⁓ the dissertation process, did your understanding of success begin to change over time?

Amanda (10:45)
Mm-hmm.

It did. I think in a lot of ways. I went into this program. I feel like I had some pretty strong values going into it and that kind of helped me guide and like alter my definition of success for myself. I really did go in with like the full on determination. I knew I was never gonna quit from the beginning. I knew I was not gonna give up no matter how hard it was gonna get. I knew I was gonna go into it with a lot of humility.

and knowing that I was gonna accept the feedback from the experts. Because I knew that, you know, the professors and the chair that I ended up having, I knew they had a lot of knowledge that I didn't have exactly. So I really wanted to go in there with a humble attitude. And I also had a positive attitude going into it from the beginning because I knew it was gonna be a challenge. And I know who I am as a person is, if I'm going, if I'm doing something that's really challenging and I have a negative mindset,

⁓ It's not going to feel good. And so I knew going into that I had to maintain those three those three important values in order to Maintain what I thought was success and so my definite my values stayed the same the entire time but my definition of success definitely changed in a lot of ways and I think one of the big things is that I really started to view and Actually, this didn't even happen till maybe three years into the program. Is that my definition of success kind of?

started to steer away from getting the perfect grades. And because, and I think it was really genuinely understanding the research and becoming familiar with my study. And progress to me, just the definition of progress changed. It wasn't always like a milestone. And I think that was actually one of the things that my chair told me. was, she was saying progress or success doesn't always just look like this big milestone. And I think in a lot of ways,

Whenever you go into a PhD program, want to say almost everybody, they're just like, I just want to graduate. I just want to graduate. I just want to graduate. And then when you get the feedback, you're like, a lot of times I would view it in the beginning and think of my success as like my definition of success is like, oh, I'm not successful. I feel like I'm a failure because I got all this feedback. And now my goal of graduating feels even further away. And so

The definition of success to me over time became more so it's not hitting this big milestone of like I graduated already. It's really genuinely enjoying the process and actually you are making progress the less feedback you get whenever you keep returning that dissertation and then getting back less feedback or whenever you get to the next level and somebody else is reviewing your dissertation, you get different feedback. So I think over time that's what the definition of success.

started to turn into it, started to turn into recognizing that a milestone or like a grade is not what success truly is. It's about the journey and sticking it through and going through what feels like ups and downs and not, and realizing that even if you feel like you just got set back, you actually didn't get set back. You're moving forward because you learned something in that moment.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (13:51)
These are really big shifts for somebody who measured themselves by the grade

Amanda (13:54)
Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (13:57)
And I don't know if it was giving yourself more grace or expanding your idea or your ⁓ your definition of what success looked like. Well it to me that's what it sounds like is you started to expand this definition. can you remember the moment or a moment when you realize like, this isn't about the grade anymore? Can you describe that for us?

Amanda (13:59)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

There were quite a couple moments. One of the big ones was, so I had, you know, I think a lot of us, like, we shouldn't compare ourselves to others because every single journey is very different, especially on the doctoral journey. Everybody's study is so different. And so you can't compare two people on their journey. And even if one person seems like they're taking longer than the other, that's not the measure of success. It's not like the one person that's closer to graduating is more successful. It's just that.

the studies are so different and require so many different things within the study that it doesn't measure success. But the way I was doing it was I was seeing my friends move ahead of me. And I remember at one point somebody said to me, you're not making progress. And it was because I didn't hit the next level that I was aiming for. And I do remember sitting down and talking to my chair about that. And when I was talking her about it, I was kind of

explaining to her where my friends were within the process. And I think I talked to her so many times about where my friends were in the journey. I think she was starting to kind of understand like where my mentality was and where it needed to shift. And I remember her reminding me that that was the moment that she actually told me that success isn't

this like once you hit the next goal, it's like it's you're making progress. She when she told me that when she said you are making progress, I think it took me back a little bit because I felt like I was stagnant and I was stuck. And I think a lot of people always, you know, a lot of times we'll think that we're stagnant or stuck because we don't have something to show to the people that don't actually see us every day writing the dissertation, adding all these things. It's just a lot of outside voices where people don't see you sitting and doing it.

and making those little edit, even like one sentence, one paragraph, one aha moment, it's not always gonna show to the people around you. And I think what's also funny is for people who like, know, we're on this doctoral journey. And when you have friends and family members that haven't been on that journey before and they don't really understand it, I was constantly getting the, did you graduate yet? When are you gonna graduate? Why haven't you graduated yet?

Like that over and over and over again, it made me think I was stagnant, but it's just kind of, for me, I started to recognize like, okay, those, I'm getting a little distracted by those outside noises and it's making me think I'm not making progress. I think that was one of the big moments that I had where I started to realize, it started to really shift my definition of success. Another one was I wasn't necessarily doing the coursework anymore, but I was in like, ⁓

in dissertation mode. And I remember I was supposed to meet a certain milestone and I did by the end of like eight weeks, but there was, it was impossible for me to meet that milestone because there were some more external factors. And I assumed that that was an automatic failure. And I talked to my chair about it and I said, what do I do now? And she said, we just keep moving forward. It's not a big deal. It means nothing. You just, you keep going like, like it was yesterday and

Whenever she said that, there were so many moments where I think I was like meeting with her virtually and expect like, I felt like I was like in confession basically being like, I didn't do this or I didn't make this progress. And then she would always give me responses that I would be surprised by because I, I realized that, she's, she's not looking at me as a failure, even though I'm looking at me as a failure right now. And I thought that was just such an amazing,

moment of success for me and I feel so blessed that I had the chair that I had because she really helped me shift that mindset in a lot of ways.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (17:53)
That's huge. Because it's exploring the evidence. we're constantly, whether you're in the doctor or doctoral program or not, somebody's looking for evidence that we are moving forward, And it doesn't look the same. Like even you you mentioned family members and friends saying, When are you gonna be done? they might ask you, like, well, how many more years do you have left? Or how you know

Amanda (17:53)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (18:16)
And so we're constantly looking for this evidence and I think we're so well trained by it. going back to this mindset, what I find interesting is that your your understanding of these levels of success changed over time

there's a lot of things that are working underneath the surface that we have to wrestle with. There's a lot of wrestling because first of which you had to retake a course and you probably have never retaken a course in t in your entire life at that point.

Amanda (18:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

I have not,

and you know what's funny is I remember when I was going for my bachelor's degree, have this friend, he's still my friend, and I remember he, told me, he was talking to me about failing, like I think he was talking about how he failed a class, and then he told me, everyone fails a class at least once in your life. And I was like, not me. And then years later, I fail my first course.

And I remembered what he said and that just stuck with me. And he didn't even say it in a negative way, but I was just thinking, ⁓ I just proved him right. But I thought that was kind of funny.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (19:17)
That's that is definitely funny. we're so hard on ourselves. there's a lot that comes with having to retake a course because you may have to ⁓ you may have a financial responsibility for it. you know, more time ⁓ that's involved. I often say, Well, it's just more time, like your chair was saying, it's just more time. We just keep moving forward.

Amanda (19:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (19:39)
And that's really hard to understand when you're in the moment and you have this grade attached that you're like, but it's on my transcripts. when did you find resolution

Amanda (19:44)
It is.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (19:51)
it's an F, right, on your

Amanda (19:53)
was sad for a while, like for probably a week or two, but not as long as I thought I would be, right? And I think after I submitted my next draft of the dissertation and they got positive feedback and then I was moving on to the next level, it dawned on me that, I really am still moving forward, even with this F. And what's so funny,

TiffianyAnn Lundine (19:58)
Okay.

Amanda (20:13)
is that I look at the transcript now and there's actually two F's on there. And it was two different courses. And I'm so proud of it because I look at it and I'm like, look everyone, I failed twice but I still graduated. I still made it. And so it really reframes failure in a lot of ways because it's, you know how a lot of people say it's not true failure unless you give up. But I got two F's and I didn't give up. I still graduated. I still got the PhD.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (20:25)
Yeah.

Amanda (20:38)
don't matter. They just make a great story.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (20:39)
I love Absolutely. And nobody's

looking at that. They they're probably looking at it going. let me point that out to you. Yeah. Let me point that out to you. Because did you overlook that F? I have two of them. Let me let me spotlight them. I love that. And you ⁓ know.

Amanda (20:43)
And even if they are, even if they are, I'm proud of it. Because it means something different to me now. Yeah, yeah.

I know, right? They're not even looking at it. They're looking at the degree and I'm like, no, but look here.

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (21:03)
I used to think I similarly, the further I got into the program and the longer it was taking me, I started to feel this level of shame. I always associated it too with what I do day by day. Like I'm supposed to be helping learners get through their dissertation. And I'm struggling to get through mine in a timely fashion. But now I

Amanda (21:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Uh-huh.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (21:24)
where I looked at it, it was just my God given story, so that I could help somebody understand this differently that's coming behind me. Right? So I can understand that it's just time is time. It's okay if it takes you more time.

Amanda (21:28)
huh.

Yeah.

It is, yeah.

sometimes it's like the long, for me, the way I see it is whenever I hear your story or I hear other people's stories where there was a lot of struggles, it's even more inspiring to me. It's even more exciting. Whereas like sometimes if somebody says, I finished in two or three years, I'm like, cool. That's like motivating. But what's truly inspiring is the people that actually had a lot of hurdles even in our personal lives, our school lives.

I think it's even more meaningful because a lot of people can learn from that.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (22:08)
Absolutely. You said something about comparing to your peers That's a real struggle. You and I share actually being an onlooker of somebody who was push like blazing past all the benchmarks and everything. And I remember thinking I

at one point in time I saw this individual's post and I was like, I just want this person to stop talking right now. I can't look at this at their success. Cause it made me I mean, honestly, I got s I got sad for a minute. And it really robbed me of the joy of celebrating with that individual for a period of time.

Amanda (22:43)
Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (22:43)
But I

also remember another friend who had graduated and then a mentor they asked me the most

Inconvenient question. They said, How do you feel about that? actually I was very excited about it. Because I think when ⁓ when we're stuck in this ideal of, I've got to finish and I gotta finish quick and it's gotta be clean and neat and in this ⁓ really a pretty package.

Amanda (23:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (23:09)
we forget about the people around us and the struggles that they've gone through to overcome. And so I think it it takes us away from the I'm gonna say responsibility of being in that community of people. What it

Amanda (23:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is

hard because I know we're all on the same journey, but the challenging thing about going for a PhD is unlike a bachelor's and a master's degree, you don't know your graduation date. And all of our graduation dates are so different. we all struggled, like listening to all your podcasts, because I did binge listen to a lot of them, I was hearing all of the people that struggled and we all had different but similar struggles. And even the people that

TiffianyAnn Lundine (23:33)
Mm.

Amanda (23:48)
finished in three years. I know I was talking about how some people finish in three years. A lot of them went through a lot of struggles too. And I think we all did. We all did. And it's just, it's hard because it's a big comparison thing in a lot of ways and it's hard not to compare ourselves when we see somebody else where we want to be. And I think for me, was never necessarily I wanted them to not be where they were at. Like I was happy for them, but I also wanted to be there too. ⁓ But I wasn't there yet.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (23:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amanda (24:15)
I think it was like, it was a lot of being in my head, a lot of deep thinking of like, ⁓ we started at the same time or they started before, like they started after me. How are they ahead of me now? And a lot of it was just kind of me questioning myself in a lot of ways. And at the end of the day, it wasn't that I wanted everyone to succeed around me. I wanted us all to show up to graduation together. But I think I was always scared, like, what if I fail? What if I don't make it? I wasn't gonna quit, but I was like, what if I fail?

I don't get to make it.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (24:42)
The one left behind. Does that resonate with you at all? I know that that hits me hard. The one left behind. I even teased all the time, like they're gonna give me my pink slip for my job if I don't graduate. I don't know that that would have happened, honestly, but but I felt that way, right? And I I felt like if I can't help these people

Amanda (24:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (25:03)
cross the line, then what what good am I doing? there's a lot of self-judgment that goes into this, but I also feel like sometimes that judgment can cross over to other people. So I wanna ask, did the doctorate challenge your view of yourself in any way?

Amanda (25:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, it did. It really, really did. It challenged me in a lot of ways because I think that was the most stress I'd ever felt in my life. was the first time where I actually questioned whether or not I could finish this degree. With my other degrees, I knew I was going to finish. And I felt like I worked hard. My professors loved me when I was in high school. My teachers saw me as somebody that was really hardworking.

I remember somebody mentioned this. like, it's really not about how smart you are, not about how hardworking you are. It's not gonna change necessarily like how long it does take for your journey. There's a lot of that go into it. one of the big things that actually it changed me in a lot of ways is it really has helped me to look at feedback in a different way instead of looking at it and just seeing the long list of corrections that you're getting from like a committee member.

⁓ I remember specifically one time I had so much feedback and it was you're supposed to get a lot of feedback. I think everyone should know that when you get a lot of feedback, that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's going to make your dissertation is stronger and it doesn't mean that you're you're like not on topic. And so I remember one time I didn't even look to read what the feedback was. I just looked at the amount of red like it was all on red. And then so I was I remember I joined my ⁓

my Zoom call with my chair and I just told her, I think I did everything wrong. And then she told me, if you look at the feedback, none of it's derailing. A lot of it's just a simple fix. And then I kind of took a break that night and then the next day I started going through the feedback and more than half of it was like a quick fix. And then there were a few that kind of required a little bit more like digging and research.

and then I was able to implement that. I would say it took me like less than a few days to finish all the feedback and then resubmit it. And then I do remember another one of the big things is because I think in a lot of ways when I went into the dissertation program, I came in with that good attitude of like, okay, be humble, accept the feedback. But my chair really taught me like when to actually change what's being asked to be changed or whenever I get a certain feedback and I know that I was like, I'm right on track and I get a feedback

feedback to change it, to just learn to know how to justify why I'm gonna keep it that way. And so it was learning a lot of like trusting myself because I think going into it, I didn't fully trust my expertise on the topic because I wasn't an expert on the topic like when I was first starting. I think that's just also kind of how I am as a person. I second guess myself. When I learn things, I'm a little hesitant to admit that I learned it.

And so I think that was one of the biggest things that I learned is to know when to justify it and to know it's not disrespectful to justify that I am keeping it the way I want to. And I learned that that's in a lot of ways, there were some things that were in my dissertation where it was correct information, but I just needed to back it a little bit more.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (28:13)
So I wanna talk about this a little bit further. Feedback is really hard to get.

Amanda (28:17)
Mm-hmm.

yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (28:19)
⁓ I mean, you look at it and it doesn't matter if your name is Joe or if your name is Amanda. It it just is hard to get. Especially if you've poured this yourself into this for the last three two, three years, and you think it's the very best b ⁓ version of yourself.

Amanda (28:25)
huh.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (28:35)
I do want to talk a little bit about this further. this idea of when to challenge, when not how do you know?

w if you need to make a change or not make make a change. Let's start there.

Amanda (28:47)
Yeah, I think that one was pretty tricky for me to be able to differentiate in the beginning. And I think what's really hard is because when you get feedback, at least for me, was like, I don't get what's wrong. I feel right. But then I also would be like, I feel wrong because the experts are telling me I'm wrong. So it was so confusing for me. And so a lot of it was being able to really trust myself as a researcher to be able to look up.

look up those articles and see like, okay, am I reading this? Am I understanding this correctly? Okay, I am because I looked at several different articles and it said the same things. That's how I know to justify it. And I think in a lot of ways at the beginning, it was a lot of my chair kind of nudging me and saying, hey, I think this one looks fine, but like maybe you should like look into a little more justification. She would tell me without telling me like straight out like, hey, you're on the right path. Just justify it a little bit more.

And there was other times where, for example, I think it was like when I was trying to name themes for like my, I think it was chapter four, I was trying to name the themes to match the codes and they weren't necessarily matching correctly. And I think I was getting so frustrated that I was just, it was kind of like throwing spaghetti at a wall and just being like, does this work? Does this work? Does this work? And my chair caught that I was just trying to do that. And she said, you need to take a step back, give it a day or two, go do something fun.

and come back and look at it. And so I did that and then I came back to it and then I saw what she meant. So I think a lot of times it's, you can tell whenever you actually need to fix something versus not fixing something, if you just take a step back from that overwhelmed, frustrated mentality that a lot of us go into when we see feedback, because when you first look at feedback, I think a lot of times for me, it was like automatic stress. And so,

it would be very important for me to step back for a little bit and then get back to it. And I think that was hard for me in the beginning because I think when we're in our dissertation program, we think every second counts. So if we take a step back for a day, we're losing date like we're going to graduate even later. But that's not actually that wasn't the case for me. And I think that wasn't the case for a lot of people that I also I was friends with on the journey. So little, little fun fact, sometimes stepping back is going to make you progress forward faster.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (30:54)
does your viewpoint of feedback change now that you're done? How does that show up?

Amanda (31:01)
in a lot of ways kind of going into the program, I always like I would accept feedback in a lot of ways. Like I wouldn't start like getting angry or questioning. I mean sometimes behind like you know behind closed doors I'd get frustrated and be like I don't get why they why they want me to do this or I don't get why they want me to do that but I was very respectful when I would approach who gave me the feedback and I would say hey I think I'm struggling and I think I'm just being frustrated and I need a little more guidance and so

But now I really do view feedback as an opportunity to have even stronger work. And I think that's kind of a big difference that I see with myself amongst other people that I know like when you get feedback, it's like, no, they think of it as like a personal attack versus this is gonna make me stronger. I'm always about like, whatever will make me better at whatever I'm doing.

Also, I have learned when I get feedback, if I do feel overwhelmed, I need to step away for at least a little bit, do something fun, maybe for an hour, and then come back with a clearer mind, and then realize it's not as daunting as I thought it was.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (32:08)
reflecting back on your process, do you think your values actually changed or did the doctoral process reveal what mattered most after all?

Amanda (32:11)
Mm-hmm.

They stayed the same the whole time and I'm proud to say that. Yeah, yeah, I kept that positive attitude for the most part. I had a few breakdowns, but I was good about it whenever I would cry about something. I was like, no, it's gonna be okay. I had a lot of positive self-talk and I think that I really appreciate that about my personality. So I think that if I didn't have those values going into it, I don't know if I would have been able to make it out on the other side. So I would say they stayed the same. I kept the positive attitude. I kept the determination.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (32:20)
The whole time.

Amanda (32:45)
I kept that humility, but I think what changed a little bit about the humility is I understood a little bit better that humility doesn't mean going in there admitting I know nothing. It just means knowing what you know, but knowing what you can improve on at the same time.

So I would say with humility, it's very important to go in there actually knowing like this is what I do know and this is where I can learn more, where I can grow more. Instead of going in there saying, okay, I know nothing, everything everyone says I need to fix. Because when you become a, like you're becoming a ⁓ PhD or EDD or like you're getting that doctorate. So you have to understand like you know things.

but also be humble enough to know when somebody knows a little bit more than you or when somebody is giving you feedback that is gonna make it stronger. I think the importance of humility is being strong and knowing what you know, but then also not shutting down those opportunities to improve.

example, I guess it would kind of go back to where I got that feedback. And anytime I'd get feedback, I would just say, okay, they're telling me to change this. I need to change this. And then my chair reminded me, you know, for this one, it seems really strong. I think you just need to add a little more justification there. And so she would remind me all the time, she said, you need to trust yourself. You need to trust yourself. Because I could see that she could tell when I was doubting myself, even when I was.

when I was right about things. And a lot of times the feedback isn't saying you're wrong. Sometimes it's saying, hey, based on what you're saying, it sounds wrong because you didn't justify it enough. So learning that balance, I think that was a beautiful part of humility that I strengthened in a lot of ways.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (34:24)
Yeah. And letting somebody guide you, I think is really important as well. Like, ⁓ we could be real protective of our work. And going back to the feedback piece, we could be real protective of it and like I don't wanna it's not ready, it's not ready, it's not ready. But what you described was allowing somebody from a different vantage point to look at your work and and

Amanda (34:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (34:47)
A test to this is strong, but we need just this one thing here. We need can you can you explain this term? Just explain the term. the other person a a person I spoke with recently, they said, I don't know what this means, was the feedback that they got. And I'm like, that just means I don't know what this means. That's it. Tell me what it means. ⁓ instead we can get defensive,

Amanda (34:52)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (35:10)
⁓

what do you mean you don't know what this means? It that takes this it it just puts us on the defense rather than this humility of okay this person doesn't know what this means, let me step back and describe it a little bit more.

Amanda (35:24)
Yeah,

think it was, I was very, very lucky that the entire committee that I had, they were very emotionally supportive in a lot of ways. And I know other people that were on the journey, their committee was a lot more like strict and straightforward with the feedback. So then it would be like that emotional hit without the emotional reassurance after that. But when I would get feedback, it would feel like an emotional hit, but then they gave me that emotional reassurance that, hey, it's okay.

And so I felt so lucky that I just had the best committee.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (35:56)
I mean, we're not for all people, you talk about the guidance that you got from your committee. ⁓ what lessons did your chair chair teach you that still influence you today?

Amanda (36:02)
Yeah.

I honestly, I feel like the biggest thing on top of just how she really reframed my definition of like what this whole journey means and just constantly reminding me along the way that, hey, you're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're not behind. You're doing great. In a lot of ways, really strengthened me to feel like I can do anything that I wanna do if I my mind to it. And because a lot of times

I came in very determined and I always wanted to like just not like I never giving up was never an option but I was always scared that what if I'm not good enough and what if I just don't make it because they because the school says hey sorry you got enough by by the way I did think that I was gonna get kicked out because I got one F actually two F's but but you don't get kicked out for that there's there's many other steps that happens before that happens but ⁓ I think one of the biggest things is she really just she

She helped me build my confidence in so many ways. And in all areas of my life now, I think all the values and the strength that she gave me throughout this dissertation process has helped me to be more successful. I value who I am as a person in so many ways because I think I have good qualities that I didn't always recognize because it's truly whenever you go through a big,

Difficult experience and you make it through where you start to really truly see your own quality shine and And I think she helped me in so many ways She probably doesn't even know she helped me in those many ways,

TiffianyAnn Lundine (37:34)
What is one quality that you see now that you didn't see in yourself before that like stands out to you? Like you wake up every day and you're like, I am this person.

Amanda (37:45)
I think overall it's just the level of confidence that I have. I always grew up pretty shy. I grew up shy. grew up, like even when I knew the answer to something, I would kind of bite my tongue and then let somebody else say the answer. But now I think in a lot of ways, I'll say things with lot more confidence. I speak up a lot more whenever I know something or when I feel like I can contribute. I think in a lot of ways, I acknowledge my own knowledge. Whereas before,

I would be too shy to say something because even if I knew something, I would be scared that if I said it out loud, it would be wrong or people would just kind of look at me and wonder why I made that statement. So I would say that's the biggest thing where I noticed a daily difference even now that it's been like a year and a half.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (38:30)
I think this comes back to a level of trust. What helped build that trust

Amanda (38:33)
Yes.

You know, in a lot of ways, think we were compatibility wise, I feel like we just worked really well. Like she understood like how I worked emotionally and having that balance of, because this is a really challenging process and having somebody that's there for you and understands the, like they care about your wellbeing at the same time as going through this process, that was so helpful for me and I think that that made

That helped me in so many ways. It helped the process a lot better and it helped me continue to keep that positive attitude even during the times where it was hard.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (39:11)
So what advice would you give to learners about getting the most out of that relationship?

Amanda (39:16)
I would say it's very important to build that rapport. And I know in a lot of ways it's your chair that's gonna be working with you and trying to build that rapport. But if you feel like there's that barrier, just being very honest, having those open conversations, reaching out to them consistently, I think the more they hear from you, the more they realize how much you care about the process and how much you wanna learn and how much you're accepting their feedback. In a lot of ways, I've seen the,

the chair and like a student like butt heads, like from experiences that I've heard from like classmates that I've had is sometimes they would butt heads with their chair because they got feedback and now they're arguing over the feedback. And I think that goes back to being humble about the feedback and really also just being honest, being open and trying to figure out ways to communicate in a way that you both are understanding of. And at the end of the day, you both have the same goal, graduation.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (40:10)
So now that you're done, I mean it's been a couple of years, so you've had some time to prepare for this question. what has changed in you the most?

Amanda (40:09)
what I would say.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

⁓

I was always a happy person just before the process. During the process, in a lot of ways, I felt like I, there's certain things that I felt like, my God, I feel so broken because I, it's such a stressful process. It kind of, it really tests you as a person. But now that I feel like I built, I got built back stronger and I feel happier about that. And I feel, I feel whenever a challenge comes my way,

I know how to look at it better. And I don't have my chair meeting with me once a week guiding me in that positivity, but I'm able to remember, she said this to me and this applies here. And yeah, there's a lot of happiness on the other side and there should be happiness throughout the process. You just gotta remind yourself to stay positive and to enjoy it. A lot of times everyone always says, enjoy the journey. Yeah, yeah. I always, think about it and I'm like,

TiffianyAnn Lundine (41:01)
Right.

Random dance parties.

Amanda (41:09)
A lot of times we focus so much on like, want that end goal, I want that end goal that we forget like, okay, you need to focus on step by step in the moment. If you keep thinking about like, I wanna graduate, I wanna graduate, you're not gonna graduate faster because you're thinking and fixating and being frustrated over it. You gotta bring yourself back here and say, okay, this is what I need to do today. This is what my feedback is today. And try to really do it as best as you can with the least amount of frustration.

Way easier for me to say now that I finished the program, but I experienced it and I still remember the feelings. I remember those late nights. I remember the times I was crying because I was just so frustrated and I felt like I wasn't going to graduate, but I made it and so will you to all the listeners that are learners.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (41:53)
Yeah.

I think that that's really big because I think we have to be reminded, just stay in the moment. One step, just this is what I need to do today. And then at the end of the day, this is what I'm going to do tomorrow. the moment we start stepping into the things that we don't even know yet, how how can we even navigate those? I can navigate day by day what I need to be working on.

Amanda (41:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (42:19)
And so

I think that that's huge. That's great advice. do you think that this has changed your leadership or your professional life in any way?

Amanda (42:21)
Yeah.

I think so. Yeah, I always believe that in any area of your life, you should just go at it with a positive mindset and also just with that grit. And I think this PhD program for me, it really helped me have that grit behind everything that I do. I know I was always the type of person that was very determined, but to overcome a hurdle this big,

I think it just makes me stronger as a person in all areas of my life and in all ways where I want to go. And it's also helped me very much lock in on any goals that I have. I'm actually really proud of this one goal that I have. So when I graduated in October of 2024, I owed $97,000 in student loans. And that was not fun. And I remember being very overwhelmed, but I was telling myself, you know what?

TiffianyAnn Lundine (43:15)
All right.

Amanda (43:18)
a game plan, I know how to be frugal, and so now we're here we are like a year and a half later and I'm down to about like $44,000 that I owe. I basically it's like I just like to think of it like I bought a car and that's how I'm just paying off the car. It's not like a giant giant number anymore. So I think that's one of the big examples of like I know how to go go for bigger goals.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (43:28)
Wow.

Amanda (43:41)
Whereas before I would be a little shy about it, but now I go full force whenever I want something.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (43:47)
Really like that. And I like you stepping into those spaces for sure. You fit them well. So ⁓ it's true, so the doctorate changes more than your credentials. that's what I've taken away from this, and what I feel every day. ⁓ if you were to go back to

Amanda (43:53)
I appreciate you for saying that.

for sure.

Yeah

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (44:08)
Amanda, what would Dr. Cason say to Amanda in her first class?

Amanda (44:13)
I would have told her, you're gonna make it. Don't worry about that. You're gonna make it. Just enjoy it. And what's so funny is because I remember from the beginning, from day one and throughout the entire process, I kept thinking, am I gonna graduate? Am I gonna graduate? And then there was one time, I think it was a few months into the program, I think I was about to go to the first residential residency that my school had. And I had a dream and it was, my grandma was in the dream.

And I asked her, cause she'd passed away when I was 14, but whenever in my dream, asked her, am I going to graduate? Am I going to get my PhD? And she said, of course. And I remember I held onto her saying that in my dream for so many years. And, but I also, I still had that like uncertainty. Am I going to graduate? And so I would just tell myself, you're going to graduate. I wanted to take that, that uncertainty off my mind so I could just enjoy the process.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (45:05)
Yeah.

Amanda (45:07)
think that was the number one reason I would probably be like, when I would get ultimately frustrated and stressed was because I didn't think I was going to make it.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (45:13)
Wow. yes you did. Of course you did. taken away from this, it this changes how you think, what you value, and who you become. I want to thank you so very much for meeting with me. I love your story.

Amanda (45:13)
But I did it, so...

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (45:29)
this is to our listeners, if you're struggling with what how do you see me differently than a year ago when I started this process, ask Or just a how do you see me? Because you probably need to be rooted in some of those things that I am this person. I can finish because I

Amanda (45:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (45:48)
I am a strategic thinker. I can finish because I enjoy learning. I can finish because I pull chaos back together again. So are the person who was created to do this, you are the person who was called to do this.

TiffianyAnn Lundine (46:01)
There were so many moments in today's conversation that stays that stay with me. One in particular that continues to echo in my mind is this idea that Dr. ⁓ Cason shared with us about her chair reminding her that progress doesn't always look like a milestone.

That's important to hold on to. Progress might look like understanding a difficult a difficult article, or maybe it becomes a little more clear. It might look like receiving fewer comments on a revis edition of your dissertation.

Maybe it looks like stepping away from your work for a day so you can return with fresh eyes. And sometimes progress simply means choosing not to quit.

I also appreciated Dr. Cason's reminder that humility doesn't mean believing you know nothing. It means instead having the confidence to recognize when you know while remaining open and learning to what you don't know.

If you're listening today and wondering whether you're moving forward, I hope this episode reminded you that the journey doesn't have to look like anybody else's. The goal isn't to keep pace with somebody else's timeline. The goal is to become the scholar and the person you were meant to be all along. Thank you very much for joining us for another episode of Dissertating in the Trenches and Behind the Scenes. It's always such a pleasure to have you join us.

Until next time, remember that progress is often happening long before it becomes visible. Keep trusting the process. Keep writing and keep dissertating.