Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life. My name is Iman Tohami and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories. So I'm starting with how are you really? I hope you're okay. And I'm so happy to present this episode today. It sends down one of my most favorite, I believe, because I've been an advocate especially about this topic for a very long time. So this episode is about autism. I am so happy that I could convince a friend of mine to record this episode with me. It's Dr. Charifa Zemouri. She is a PhD holder in infectious diseases. She's quite successful in the Netherlands. She's an advisor to many politicians and advises the general public about anything and everything you must know about infectious diseases. So if you have any COVID questions, if you have any monkey puck monkey monkeypox questions, she is the address. And yeah, but apart from all of that and her amazing accomplishments, she is a very interesting person who also happens to be on the spectrum. So I'm so happy that I can present this episode today because she has so many great insights, and it can and it will hopefully give you a new insight and point of view about what autism is really like. So I'm excited and let's just start and dive into it and enjoy. And I've been waiting for so long to record this episode with you, but I think it's a very important one. So we are going to talk about autism and the spectrum in general, and how your journey was with your diagnosis and when you found out that you're on the spectrum. So my first question to you would be How are you first?
SPEAKER_03How are you feeling? Good. And I'm very happy to record this podcast with you about uh me being on the spectrum, um, because I want to show how diverse autism can be.
SPEAKER_02So, first and foremost, I want people to understand this. Sometimes when I ask Charifa questions, so I can say Charifa because she's my friend, but she is Dr. Zemouri, very dear friend of mine. The thing is, when I ask her questions, she will be very straightforward. And I just to give you an example, it's a very um, a very simple example. If I ask her what's up, of course she knows the question what's up, but she would probably say the ceiling, you know. There is no reading between the lines with her. She's very direct, very honest, and she will let you know what she thinks right away. And I hope that we can bring this point across during the recording because it's one of the most amazing things about her.
SPEAKER_03Remember when you said turn left, and I immediately turned left.
SPEAKER_02It was so funny. We were going to a cafe to meet another friend, and I was looking at Google Maps, and I was telling her, tell her we have to turn left. But I was like in like 30 seconds or so, and then immediately I saw someone turning left. I was like, What where did you go? But this is her, and this is her. I wouldn't say the symptoms, but this is how she perceives the world, but somehow gives her instructions, she just implements them right away, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Especially when they make only when they make sense.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. Exactly. Otherwise, there's always a why, and she would dig so deep until it makes sense, or if it doesn't make sense, she will just dismiss it. Yeah, so there are no social standards here. She will just follow what makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and speaking what yeah, tell me, tell me speak speaking about social standards and rules, that is something I'm always getting into trouble with. What do you mean? So you have rules in society which are unwritten rules that you have to read between the lines, which are culturally sensitive or specific to a certain setting, right? Um, so for example, I am bicultural. So I'm born and raised in the Netherlands in Amsterdam, so the most direct, progressive, and free environment that you can ever imagine. But at home, it was Morocco, because my family is from Morocco, and I had to always switch in between these both worlds, which quite often contradict. And because the Dutch culture is my reference, which is based on a lot, based on logic, sense that being direct is normal and actually highly appreciated. When I would get into certain social settings and there would be certain roles, and it didn't make sense to me, I would always get into trouble with my mother or father, or the people around me, and that would then affect my parents who would then be upset with me and say, Why don't you just behave like a normal kid, like a normal woman, or like a normal person?
SPEAKER_02Did you notice these patterns that something I wouldn't say off, but something was different with you and how you perceived the word very early on? Or is this something that you notice later in life? Because what people don't understand is you are on the spectrum, yes, but if you meet Charifa, you will not instantly say that something is weird or off with her, or that she has some type of uh inclination that she could be on the spectrum. Only very trained eyes would actually notice that. And so for you not to fit into the social skills um expectations, I imagine that this was very, very hard growing up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so when I was a kid, uh also when I was a teenager and a young adult in my early 20s, people would always say that I'm weird. But they would ask me, like, are you stupid? Didn't you understand what was going on? And eventually I started believing that I was stupid. I also started believing that my perception of the world was false. Because when I would the way I would experience a certain event uh or a certain question, um, would always be, I would always be in doubt about my own perception when others would make a comment about it. So in my neighborhood in Amsterdam, I was referred to, still am referred to as that weird girl, that odd woman. And sometimes I would just ask, like, what is weird about me? What is odd about me? And people would never really know how to point it out. So they would say, you just behave differently, you don't understand things, you're awkward. And so eventually I just stopped having friends. Um, I didn't like to have friends. Having friends is still quite challenging uh to me. Um and then when I went uh when I started studying in college, um, I didn't make friends in college, I only made like one friend, and that one friend I would do all my projects and studies with. Um, because also in school, it didn't make sense to me. I was like, I come here to study, to learn something, make my exams, pass, get my degree, get a job. Why do I have to mingle with everyone and make friends or whatever? And still I would get into trouble. And then I would face the same challenges at work, and it became eventually I was fed up. It was too much. It was so much that I fell into a deep pit. I was extremely insecure. I was so afraid to talk or to answer because I'm afraid that I will do something which people will find odd. So then I went to my general practitioner, I explained the situation, and I said, I want to talk um to a psychologist. So I went to the psychologist and um and she assumed autism. Then I got a referral to a psychiatrist, so to uh to the doctor who invited me and my parents for the diagnosis, and the psychiatrist and the psychologist, they explained it. I did some reading and uh and explained it to my parents, and then everything made sense. And I finally had peace. My perception of reality is true. Sometimes I would think that I'm that I'm literally hitting myself on the head, and I'm like, Am I dreaming? Did I hallucinate? Do do I use drugs without being aware? Is there another person in me? Am I there was even a moment that I was thinking that I might be schizophrenic, that I am not aware of certain episodes of my life that lead to certain acts, and that is why people would behave or respond to my behavior in a certain way. That is how much I doubted myself, and I still have I still have a bit of that, you know.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think what's very important to me at least that people understand that something, if something is truly off in your behavior, or not not off, but not really conforming to the social um standard. When you go up to Charifa and say, Hey, listen, um, you misunderstood this. What was meant is this and this, she doesn't get offended. It's like, oh, thank you so much that you're explaining this to me. That's true. She doesn't have this um distinction of I made a mistake, and now someone told me that I made a mistake, and now I have to be um full of attitude because how dare you tell me something I did wrong. In fact, you can actually see how fast and how quickly she adjusts this, adjusts to the situation that is explained to her. And I wish people would know that because yes, there are definitely those autistic people who are obviously autistic. You would see them and understand, and then you are automatically cutting them the slack or giving them the freedom to be themselves because they are obviously autistic. And it was very important to me to explain that there are so many people out there, like Charifa, who are not obviously autistic. It's like this invisible thing that you cannot grasp, but because they seem very normal in the sense that there are functioning human beings in society, they have jobs, they they drive cars, they go to the grocery store. But when it comes to certain settings that are not black and white, this this famous gray area, they will struggle. And we are making it harder for them too, because they want to be understood and we want them to understand without explaining, and it doesn't work like that. I I just wanted to tell people how it was when we first met, and I was late because um many reasons. I was late, so we met in a hotel lobby with a friend of ours, and I walked in, and I I could obviously I don't know if she knew by then that I was a psychologist or not, and I have also very extensive experience with uh people on the spectrum. So when I saw her, I could visibly see how anxious she was, and later on I understood what anxiety was about. Her anxious behavior presented itself that she stood up, she became very still, and I could literally see how she was contemplating how she would greet me. And then eventually, see she just settled on sticking out her hand and saying, Hi, I'm should be fine. And I'm thinking, oh, this person really doesn't want to touch me. And then we sat down, and then within 20 minutes, she basically said, I'm autistic, and everything made sense. And I would really encourage people when they meet someone where they feel behavior is a bit strange to them to just wait a little bit because it's very likely that autistic people will tell you right away, I'm on the spectrum.
SPEAKER_03This doesn't only apply to autistic people, um, it's neurodiversity. We are all very diverse, and people on the spectrum, they have a couple of extra layers. And you know how now diversity and inclusion are these trending terms um people like to use, especially when it comes in the work field or education or curricula. And then I look at those people or companies that advertise with it, and I'm like, you have absolutely no idea what it means. Diversity and inclusion, diversity is not just look how many people of color or what kind of mix of genders and sexual orientations I have in my team. No, it's also about how diverse we are neurologically in our brain, because you don't need to have a diagnosis to accept that people are just wired differently. So it's part of it is nature, and the other part is nurture. And as I said, I think that growing up in Amsterdam, very liberal, very progressive, very direct culture, and also very individualistic. So you are allowed to be what you want to be, also added up another layer or might have even explained a part of my behavior, which is not per se due to autism, but due to my upbringing here that has wired me in a certain sense. So uh earlier you said cut people some slack, uh, if you know that they're autistic, and I don't always agree with it. Um, it's not a handicap. I don't perceive it as I don't perceive it as a handicap. There are cases with severe autism, low functioning, low IQ, severe autism. That yes, I do perceive as a handicap because these people are not uh they are not functioning, they are not fully functioning, they need like 24-7 care or something. But people who are fully functioning, um, yeah, if you see something that you don't like, just point it out, explain. And I think that this explanation, this logical thing that this applies to everyone on the spectrum, and we are really like if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make dollars. Just explain it, and you don't have to say, Yeah, but this is how it is, because this is our culture, it's not satisfactory. Always just explain. It's like with little children that you have to explain why they should not play with fire. You have to say, Don't play with fire, because if you play with fire, you will burn yourself. And when you burn yourself, you'll have pain. You might go to the hospital, you might that you will damage your body, or you might set the house on fire, and then we have no place to live. You don't say, Don't play with fire, and that's it. The chances are that the kid is gonna play with fire again. So, yeah, with regards to cutting slack, um, yeah, you you could also like accept certain things. Once I got my diagnosis, my autism diagnosis, and I can I continued a bit of my therapy and I became friends with my autism, and I knew what it was, what my strong points are, what my pitfalls are. Um, the people that I work with, the people that I have intense contact with, I explain I am on the spectrum, this is what it means, and these are my pitfalls, and this is something that you cannot change about me. And I always use the example of someone in a wheelchair. So when you see someone sitting in a wheelchair, that person has obviously has one obvious challenge, and that challenge is you can never expect from that person to take the stairs. You will know this person will never take the stairs, he has to take the elevator, or should be helped to get to another floor. And then I say there are certain things with me that no matter what you do, you cannot ask me to just be normal. That's like screaming at a person sitting in his wheelchair and saying, Why don't you just take the stairs? So there are certain things once you get to know. I don't know if there are people listening who uh recognize themselves in this or who are also on the spectrum, or they think they're on the spectrum. Once you identify the challenges that you have, which are which are quite rigid in you, you cannot change, like the person in the wheelchair cannot change the fact that that that he cannot walk. Uh I did um embrace it, know what it is, communicate it with others, and then just tell people if you can deal with it, you're welcome. If you cannot deal with it, then um maybe it's for the best if we if we reduce our contacts to uh prevent problems.
SPEAKER_02I just wanted to go back to the to the cutting slack part. Um just to make it perfectly clear, I didn't make it mean it in the sense that oh my god, you have a handicap, as you said, or we have to put you in a position where you are treated not lesser but differently. With cutting slack, I meant when you meet someone on the spectrum who is very severely affected by the fact that they have autism. Usually it goes without saying that we um adjust our expectations towards that person because it's very obvious. With other people, it's not that simple. And I don't only mean people on the spectrum, it could be also people who are suffering with other um challenges that we are not aware of. The approach that I want to take, and I I really encourage everybody to take, that you don't just you know, make your conclusions and assume that they are true, because in many cases, in 80% of the cases, I can tell you your assumptions are false, if not more than 80%. And I encourage everyone to wait a little bit just to make sense of their experience, because the other side of the story is when an autistic person meets a person who is not on the spectrum, obviously they have their challenges, but in many cases, when they are diagnosed, they are aware of it. The other side is not aware of their biases, meaning when you are growing up in certain cultural contexts, you will assume that everybody understands them. That's not always true. And when you meet a person, you should always go in with an open mind, almost. I know this word or this term is a little bit overused, but this is exactly what it is. When you meet a person, it takes only a few seconds for us to build an impression when we meet someone based on how they look, on how they carry themselves, on how they speak, and so on and so forth. You know what? I have an impression now, you have to actively work against this impression and give yourself a chance to be proven wrong. And this is. I mean by cutting people and not only people on the spectrum, everyone a little bit of slack before you just assume that what you saw or what you think is true. Just give yourself the chance to meet this person on a different level, understand where they are coming from, ask questions. And if something is truly it applies to everyone when you ask them about them, people will most likely tell you what they feel, what they think. So I encourage everyone to just take this approach. And everybody has a story to tell, right? And they will only tell you the story. Well, some people will just tell you the story without being asked, but most people will start telling you the story on some level when you ask them about it. So this is what I meant by cutting people's slack, you know, not in the sense of handicap and treat them differently. Because I can tell you, Charifa, you don't have a handicap at all. Dealing with you is one of the simplest things you can think of because there are no when Charifa's upset, she will just tell me. When Charifa is annoyed, she will just tell me. You will see it on my face. So a very simple example. Um, when I tell her I have to go now, she will, as I said, remember when we spoke about she just turned left, she will stand up and say, Okay, go.
SPEAKER_03Yes, so this is this is actually a great example. Um, something that is quite normal with me. So when I'm on the phone with friends or anyone, and then this person says, Um, Charifa, I need to talk to you later. And I'm like, Okay, bye. And then these people call me back, and they're like, Why are you upset? And why are you so passive aggressive? And I'm like, What? I didn't do anything. Yes, I told you I have to go. And you're like, Okay, bye. Why are you such a bitch? And I'm like, Listen, dude, you said I have to go. You have to go. I what do you want me to do? Say, don't go, okay, bye, and then I hang up because you have to go. So I have these friends that sometimes they still say, We know what you mean with when we say I have to go or I have to stop. And you say, Okay, bye. But it's just still very difficult for them to comprehend.
SPEAKER_02And then like Yeah, because when a conversation ends, they're still expecting the small talk, oh, okay, so nice. Okay, we talk, we'll talk to the later, blah blah blah blah. All these, you know, small talk chatters in between, you don't use them, and so they think but I respect I respect other people's borders so much, yes, that I I take language quite often literally.
SPEAKER_03Yes, so also when people say, Yeah, but it is not what I meant to say, then I look at them and I'm like, then tell me what you meant to say. No, but didn't you get an idea of what I was trying to say? No, because I cannot look in your head. Tell me, and that is why I like science and research so much. That's why I did a PhD. Because, in that sense, my autism was like my superpower. Because in scientific research, when you write your paper, you need to write exactly what you mean to say, because you don't want people to misinterpret your results or to abuse them or uh misinterpret your your methodology, and that's why, for example, I'm doing a such a great job being uh a master's thesis supervisor because I keep on repeating to my students, I cannot look in your brain. Everything you mean to say, write it exactly down as you mean it. And this sometimes, when it comes to my work, absolute superpower, but in social setting, uh it can get me into trouble. And I learned to I arrive to a point that I'm like, I am not responsible for what other people uh say, I am not responsible for how other people express their emotions or their thoughts. That's their responsibility. They are sending out a message, and if that message is not received the way they intended to send to broadcast that message, if I misunderstand it, it's not on me. Then you should have, like I told tell my students, then you should have said it or written it down in a way that you mean to say to prevent issues.
SPEAKER_02So people often tell you, we spoke this about this many times, that you come across as root. Well, I would like to say, but you can talk a little bit more in detail about this. It's not root, you're just honest. And this is the distinction that sometimes needs to be made. Because when you know, socially there is this blind misunder um uh understanding between people that okay, let's say you meet someone who really smells badly, that you would not go ahead and tell them, hey, you stink, but you would maybe tell them not tell them at all, or if you care about them, but you would maybe tell them, hey, why don't you go shower, for example. So between the lines, right? Yes, I do, not in the direct sense with Charifa. No, she would tell you you stink.
SPEAKER_03No, not not not really, not really, because um I did encounter some people that would have bad personal hygiene.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, I used to be friends with someone who had a I would I would call it he had a heat problem. His body didn't know how to regulate his temperature. And uh that is that that is then what I tell myself, like he has an issue with temperature regulation, and therefore he has excessive sweating. And because it's his own body odor, he is not aware of it. Once I did communicate it with him in a very subtle way, because I also know how to speak subtly, I also know how cultures work, I know the dynamics, but I don't know it from a natural perspective. I learned these things by reading and observing and turning it into a scientific study. So I know exactly how everything goes in the Dutch culture, and I know exactly how everything goes in my in a Moroccan culture, and I know exactly how these two clashes and how you should combine them or to resolve those issues, but it's as a bystander from the outside. But once I am in it myself, it's not my emotion or this part of your brain that does it naturally. I'm running this protocol through my head and trying to identify um, you know, mechanisms or dynamics or triggers, and I'm like, oh, okay, so this is what is going on, and now I have to respond this way. So when it comes to communicating to people certain sensitive matters, as I know, body odor or someone the the way a person looks is um very sensitive. I know that I'm not stupid. Uh well, I know all of this stuff because I read a lot, and then I do manage to tell this person about the bad body odor. What if you didn't have the protocol? But I can create the protocols myself by observing people. That's why I like when I'm alone a lot, and I, for example, sit on a terrace and I just watch people, and I would just watch how people behave. And it's like monkey studies. You sit down and you have this book, and you just watch the monkeys and and what they do, and then you and then you start seeing trends, and you start recognizing uh certain facial expressions and everything, and then I I create my own protocol.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I am sure you watch the Big Bang Theory. I love the Big Bang. How accurate did you think was the description or how Sheldon was portrayed?
SPEAKER_03Well, Sheldon's character was portrayed based on autism in a man, correct. But Amy is also on the spectrum, correct? And Amy, I really liked her. She was I I could identify with Amy because Amy was uh very social, she was capable of love, she was capable, she really wanted to have physical relations with Sheldon, and she uh Penny was her friend, and she would also very often take things uh uh literal, or she would follow certain protocols, so the protocols that she has implemented in her head, and then she's like, Okay, so it's girls' night. On girls' night, we will do each other's nails, we can practice kissing, or we're gonna bash people. And then uh, for example, Penny looks at her and is like, she looks at her in a way, like, what's wrong with you? But I fully understood Amy because she is she is also that character I think is also on the spectrum, and we always shine light on Sheldon because Sheldon it's more obvious the the the the the the classic character of what we have about autism, about hyper-intelligent men who are into Star Wars and and toys and computer and all of that stuff, but it's also Amy, and it's also me, Charifa, and so many other people.
SPEAKER_02Um, you brought up a key word, and I actually wanted to talk to you about that as well: love. So we all have an understanding of how love is supposed to be, everybody is feeling it in a certain way, and of course, love is for everyone unique, but when it comes to love, how do you navigate this especially? And I don't mean necessarily romantic love, but love in general, love that you have for people in your life. Um, yeah, go ahead, tell me. I'm curious about this.
SPEAKER_03There is a distinction between platonic and romantic love. I find platonic love much easier to express and communicate, and I experience love quite intense. Um, I think it's a it's it's a very nice feeling because it's a feeling of appreciation and acceptation. Recently I watched Love on the Spectrum, the US edition and the Australian edition, and there was this girl. It's on Netflix.
SPEAKER_01It's on Netflix, just a reference. Yes.
SPEAKER_03And there was this girl on the Australian uh uh version of Love on the Spectrum, and she said, if a moron like President Trump can have love, everyone can. And that one really just goes in my book. I love that woman for saying that. We everyone, regardless of their neurodiversity, struggle with love, but being on the spectrum really adds on another layer, um, because it has to do a lot with expectations and structure. So Platonic love is much easier in the sense of you and I we have we have a relationship as friends, as sisters, even. And I love you, and you love me, and it gives me a lot of peace, but also because we are not growing towards something, we are staying in this sisterhood kind of relationship. But when it comes to romantic love, it's different because it's about expectations. Where are you going? What is your aim? Uh, for example, I don't date, and if I do get to know someone, my aim is to build up a sustaining um relationship in a form of a marriage and have a family, and romantic love gives this error because I'm constantly thinking and assessing, do you like me? Are you interested in me? Because I don't pick up these cues. I do pick up the cues when someone is insulting me. That I'm I'm the best. I know when someone is insulting me, when someone is mean, and my my payback at that moment is lethal. Um, but when it comes to interest, for example, I don't know when a man is interested in me. I don't know if a man likes me. He really has to say it because I can misinterpret it. Just like when we earlier said people perceive me as rude, well, I'm actually just being crystal clear. Or people mistake kindness with flirting. So I'm very much aware of this misinterpretation of how people express themselves. So when it comes to romantic love, I don't know that. And that it it brings um it brings some stress. Also, when it comes to, I want to see you. And I'm like, okay, when? Yeah, somewhere next week. And then I would literally open my agenda and I will ask, when next week? Yeah, let's do on a Saturday. Okay, morning, evening, what is it gonna be? I want that a certain structure, it doesn't go on in a natural way, and even when I explain that, and especially like when you just meet someone, you're not just gonna say, Oh, I'm on the spectrum, because it scares the shit out of people. Because once people hear autism, they think that you're non-functioning. Let me say something to the listeners. I am a highly functioning person.
SPEAKER_02I can attest to that.
SPEAKER_03I am an extremely highly functioning person, and I'm super productive, and I have a beautiful life that I built for myself. And people don't just see that at first, and you don't communicate that. Like, I have an amazing, beautiful life. Eventually, they they find that out. They are like, oh my god, your life is wow. And I'm like, Yeah, what do you think? Well, we thought because you're autistic, I'm like, yeah, so it doesn't mean that you cannot do anything, that you cannot travel the world, get PGs, write papers, come be on the national radio and TV and whatever. You can do everything, you can be awesome. You um, so it does bring a lot of these challenges because in in in in romantic love relationships, there's a lot of indirect communication. There is a lot of reading between the lines, a lot. It's a it's very emotional involved, evolved. And the way love creates or develops doesn't go according to it, doesn't go, it doesn't follow certain structures. There's not an equation, it's not mathematics. Like if you put A and then you put B, you get C. It can go all over the place, and that gives me so much stress. And that is why I stopped dating, because dating just adds up another stress, uh layer of stress to my life, which is so energy consuming that I'm like, I rather put that energy in reading about infectious diseases, reading, doing reading that will help me in my personal and um professional development. I would rather I would rather write papers in my free time or spend time with my friends.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would like just to stress on this point that um people on the spectrum have the same type of emotions everyone has, and sometimes even more intensive. And I wouldn't necessarily say that they're expressing it the same way, but they know of the existence of these emotions, and for them it's also challenging challenging to live with that if they are not perceived in that way. I have met many people who thought because someone is autistic, that they don't really know what's like to feel sad or angry or or any type of emotion. And the opposite is the truth, because especially because of the intense emotions, people on the spectrum are sometimes struggling because A, they wouldn't be able to necessarily express it the way everybody is used to, but they're also getting very frustrated when people are not expressing their emotions. So it's a lot of this mind games that you have in the beginning, as you said, of dating. Like, yeah, oh, is he liking me? Will he text me? Should I wait for three days? All these weird rules.
SPEAKER_03But it's also like, did I do something wrong? Did I say something wrong? Because I am used to people always saying that I said something wrong or I did something wrong. But it's also when it comes to dating, it's a lot about this um let's meet up or let's do this or let's do that. I always have a thousand of things to do in my day. And one of those thousand things is being in bed watching Netflix, like bling empire or something stupid. That's that's also something that I very often prefer to do than meet up with people because it's me time and I need to uh and I need to relax. And in this dating part, in the beginning, when someone doesn't respect your time, oh my god, I go crazy. If if you say we we are meeting for dinner at seven and at six o'clock you text me and you say I'm late, I go nuts. How much late? Yeah, I think around an hour. Then why would you tell me we are meeting up at seven? What do you think I'm gonna do with that within that hour? And that hour that I have to wait, I don't know what to do with myself. And then I'm like, back in the days when we didn't have mobile phones, you would meet up with someone at seven and you leave the house at six, that person could not text you at 6.05 and tell you I'm late. That person would do whatever it takes to be at that place at seven. And if you and you arrive at seven and it's 7.15 or 720 or 7:30, and that person is still not there, you keep the honor to yourself and you walk away. So the other person knows if I'm not going to be on time, that person is not gonna know that I'm late for an hour, and that person's not gonna spend an hour waiting for me. So it it also feels that it's the the way our society is evolving and changing in a bad way, actually. This is how I observe it, in a bad way. Like our moral standards are decreasing each day, like the bar is lower is lowered so much that it almost reached the the the center of the of the earth, and that even gives us not I cannot speak for all neurodiverse people, but I can speak for myself. That gives so much stress that I'm like, why don't you respect my time? How can I be in a relationship with you or start a love relationship with you and consider you to be the father of my children, to to be my partner, if you don't even respect my time, if you don't even respect my Sunday morning, how how are how how is this then gonna develop into something which is sustainable?
SPEAKER_02I believe as in anything, but especially in the sense or in the case of neurodiversity, that communication is absolute key, and there is no over-communicating here. So when something is when something needs to be said, said it, say it as detailed as you can so you just avoid misunderstandings. And so I the way I always dealt with that person, you know, there is one aspect of neurodiversity that people don't understand, is that when you are in a relationship with someone who is on the spectrum, or it doesn't necessarily mean needs to be a um romantic relationship, but the what you describe as stressing out is a very intense emotional reaction. So when you say you are not respecting my Sunday morning, it sounds like, What really? Wow, that's so simple. Why would you be upset about your Sunday morning? Like relax or chill, how people always say exactly. Yeah, but the emotional reaction to this is not that you're not that you are not respecting Sunday morning, you are not respecting what you have communicated before, and then you don't find it important enough to actually clarify what why that happened, and also accept that the reaction to that is actually sadness or anger or whatever it may be. So there are so many things that link together at this point that the emotion. Action needs to be understood. It's not simply, oh, she's so uptight about her Sunday morning. It's really not the Sunday morning. It's the fact that there was a communication made before that was not respected.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, an agreement. We're gonna meet on Sunday morning for coffee. So when you and I agree to meet, and when you cancel me, uh, and even if you do it like a night in advance, a day in advance, it's not that I have a 48-hour policy, otherwise, you have to pay a fine. Like, I'm not your I'm not I'm not the physiotherapist or the dentist. And uh even when I was a therapist, I would be like, depends on your excuse. If you say, like, oh, my father died, so I cannot come to my appointment within an hour. I'm not sending you a bill because your father died. That's something else. So you got hit by a car. A couple of times when you would ask to postpone uh um our our uh our date, um very often you would ask if I was okay with it. And I really love that. And the moment you ask me, Am I okay with it? I'm immediately okay with the fact that you're canceling on me because you're considering my feelings. Second, you would always give an explanation, even if it's just one WhatsApp sentence. And I always tell people as well if you have time to take a shit on the toilet, you have and most people take their mobile phones with them to the bathroom, you have time to open WhatsApp and write one sentence, yes, which you can do in that time when you are on the toilet, and you would just write this one sentence, Charifa, I'm not gonna make it tomorrow because of. And what is always my response, Iman? Yes, of course, sure. Yeah, that's simple because you first check on the other person, um, you cancel, you give a small explanation of why, and that clarifies so much because at that moment I know you didn't cancel because of me. I don't have to doubt myself or anything, and that's why I find uh platonic relationships much easier than love, than romantic relationships, and also as I said, um the standards are are lowered so much, so a lot of the behavior does not make any sense, and then I'm just looking at you and I'm like, you're bullshitting me right now, and I will call out on you bullshitting me. Yeah, you will.
SPEAKER_02I have um, like one of the last questions I want to ask you. If you had it's probably not that easy, but if it's just one message that you have for people who are not on the spectrum that you would want them to know, what would it be?
SPEAKER_03Get familiar with the term neurodiversity and learn how to recognize that people are diverse. And once you recognize it, tell yourself that your perception of the world is your reality and it's your reference standard, but it doesn't apply to everyone, and that is the part of speaking in HR terms, diversity and inclusion. It's not, it's also to accept the fact that some people are just different. And as I once said to a lady who used to be my friend, if you find difficulties or struggling with the fact that I'm on the spectrum and there are certain things that you struggle with every time, um, I cannot change myself in that aspect. Going back to the wheelchair person, you can be upset with the person in a wheelchair and not being able to go hiking with you in the mountains. You will just not invite that person for the hike. And then I told that person, if it's bothering you and you don't know how to cope with it, maybe it's better if we are not friends anymore.
SPEAKER_02I really think that this deserves more than just this podcast episode, but generally speaking, this point of awareness, because there is also, I feel personally, there is this trend of tokenism that everybody wants to have, like um, a friend of color, a friend on uh I don't I don't know, gender fluid friend, a transgender friend, a diverse friend, um neurodiverse trend. People are just taking these um isms and just taking them to prove the point of oh yes, we can deal with these issues, but there is not the in-depth understanding of what it actually means. And once they are hitting a road bump, they're actually not interested anymore. So people could say, Oh, you're on the spectrum, but then once you have an issue that occurred because you are on the spectrum, they're just simply giving up because they are saying, but that doesn't suit me, especially when it's a repetitive issue, like why wouldn't you just say this, or why wouldn't you just do this? The the obvious thing with handicaps that you can see is that you can see them. Um, with other challenges that are not necessarily considered a handicap, but makes life harder for the people who are um on the spectrum, for example. Or people with a trauma. And people with a trauma, they will just say, Yeah, but why don't you just get over it? It's not that simple.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like with people, yeah, it's like people with the trauma. People have a trauma, for example. I I know a woman who was once bitten by a dog as a child, and she's so traumatized by dogs that when she sees a dog, she completely freaks out. And people keep on telling her, stop acting like that. Like it's just a dog. And people will not communicate everything which is in their head. Nobody's gonna walk around with the card. I was bit once in my youth by a dog and I have developed a trauma, or I went to war and I have developed PTST for more. So loud noises uh or violent behavior is something that I cannot deal with. So this applies not only to people on the spectrum, I think. Yeah, no, that most definitely.
SPEAKER_02You know, I was always when when when I first learned about autism many, many, many years ago, I was actually going into like really searching in my memory to find out there's right, think about it, there's always this odd person in a family where people say, Ah, but he's odd, or he is so and so. And then I would actually re reconsider that that standpoint and think, what if they were actually what if those people were on the spectrum and we didn't know? Or and it people would be surprised to know that there are so many people on the spectrum undiagnosed, they are not aware of it, and people around them are not aware of it. So I just they're just getting this reputation of being the weird person in the family, or rude, or rude, correct. So yeah, I really hope that this opened up your perspective a little bit. Charifa is amazing. Like, I hope this came across in this episode. As I said, she says what she thinks and means, and she means what she says. So there is sort of the slightness because you too don't need to second guess anything. If she says she's okay, then she's okay. I mean, leave me alone. Exactly. Thank you so much, Charifa. I really appreciate it. You really opened up and it's just amazing. And I love that you are so open about the fact that you're on the spectrum. I think it also gives you a lot of peace, but you don't have these um standards where you say better not talk about it because so and so on. In fact, I think you use it as um a helpful tool to explain things when you are in a situation where you feel you're not getting anything out of the situation and you don't understand it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and luckily, like living in the Netherlands, uh, where people are so accepting and people have quite a lot of knowledge when it comes to work or when it comes to interactions, and that I say I'm on the spectrum, people are very understanding and they will try to find a way to deal with you, especially when it comes to work. It's just that when it comes to relationships, that's just a drama. And yes, I am open about it, but I'm also very careful about it because I don't want to come across as a victim or as sad or that people are gonna cut me slack for pity or whatever. No, I just want to be treated like any other person. And don't worry, I'm a big girl, I can't stand up for myself and I know when to say stop. And um, yes, you do. And it's just that regardless if you're on the spectrum or not, the one thing that I wish from this world is that we would be more accepting of people being diverse and that you don't have to be friends with everyone or liked by everyone. And for me, the biggest uh gift my diagnosis gave me was that I stopped doubting myself and I knew that I was not schizophrenic or that I was dreaming or hallucinating, but it's just that I have a certain perception of the world, which is quite objective, very scientific. Um, and that a lot of things can go wrong sometimes with what's in between the lines, and that's fine. That's yeah, that's a loss that I have, and I'm fine with that too. I don't think it's a loss, but I get what you mean.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Charifa. You're welcome. I will put all your handles and tags in the description if you are curious to find out more about her work, and her tweets are amazing. If you're Dutch speaking, just go to her tweets to have a good time. Or click on um translate. Oh, click on translate, correct. Thank you so much, Shili Brahm.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Iman.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thank you so much for tuning in, and hopefully, you will tune in again next week. It will be another episode talking to or about clients of mine, and you can find us on social media on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. The handle is always @saidintherapy. Thank you so much.