Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life. My name is Iman Tohami and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties, and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories. She has incredible taste and I love her so much generally. She's a wonderful person and she has so much to share actually when it comes to motherhood. She has a very unique story, one way or another, because I think every story about motherhood is very unique. And by that I want to put out a disclaimer. This specific story is a story about labor, and I think it's very important that we realize motherhood comes in so many wonderful ways. I truly believe that motherhood is not only one way and that's it. So for instance, I have many clients and patients who struggle with infertility. So this is something that we want to highlight here or I want to highlight here specifically. Because I believe no matter how you become a mom, motherhood is beautiful, and it doesn't mean that a child needs to grow in your belly in order for you to become a mom. So yes, because I know that this topic can be very painful for many people, I wanted to put it out there. And yeah, I would suggest we just start listening to what Büsra has to say. Um I want to make sure that you know this episode is slightly medical because she went through a lot of medical issues after she gave birth, and it's important for you to understand that this is something that can happen, but at the same time, that as I said, every birth story is unique and every story to motherhood is unique. But I hope you enjoy. Here we go.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited for this conversation.
SPEAKER_01So, um, just to give the listeners a little bit of background, you and I we basically became moms uh within the same time span. So I think um our little ones are only six months apart, and this is how we basically connected. But at the same time, we also realized how much motherhood changes someone. And for you especially, you had a very, very tough start, and I think it would be very very beneficial to talk about this and let people know that motherhood is not always easy, even though beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's the craziest roller coaster ever. And no one and nothing can prepare you for it. Like, you read a lot about it, friends tell you, and obviously you've seen your mother being a mom, but like when you go through that journey yourself, you're like, oh my god, this is crazy! Like, my life is like my knowledge in in like wisdom, knowledge, everything about life expands, and it's um yeah, it's been very interesting and it's still ongoing, it's a journey, but yeah, so the beginning um is definitely crazy, especially when you don't know what's gonna happen. And for us, like we we had just moved to a new city, we were literally like you know, starting a new life. I was, I think I was seven months pregnant. We moved to Munich, and we were like so excited building our new home, our new nest for our little baby, and I didn't want my family to be around at that time. I don't know. I just thought we're gonna do it ourselves, my husband and I, also during labor. I didn't want anyone but us there. Um, in hindsight, I'm like, what the fuck was wrong with me? Like, why did I do that? I I so longed to have my mom there during labor, actually. So if I ever get pregnant again, I would do the things very differently. But yeah, at that time it was just all new and exciting, and we I think we just wanted to like experience it ourselves. Um, yeah, so labor was um interesting. Um, I'm I'm I'm grateful that like my daughter was born naturally, and um there were some complications, but it was more related to my body, um not to the baby's body, which I'm grateful for. But yeah, it wasn't um easy because I experienced the complication during um the epidural. So the hospital wanted to speed things up because my water broke, and it was just like one thing led to the other, and it was just so many hours had passed, and they were like, you know, girl, let's just give you this induction, and that induction led to crazy um contractions. And at one point I was like, okay, let's do this epidural. I I didn't want it initially, but it happened. Um, and yeah, I don't know what exactly happened um during the process, but the puncture was just too deeply or something. So after labor the next day, I experienced crazy headaches. And you know, I thought, okay, that's probably normal, everyone going through this. Um, and you know, it's sort of like I thought it's sort of like a punishment if I choose the easy way with like, you know, numbing, numbing my pain, then maybe this is what I have to go through for a couple of days, I'm gonna be fine. So they gave me like, you know, medication, pain medication, headache medication, and I thought it's gonna be fine. Um, but it didn't stop, so the headaches were getting crazy. So it was that kind of headache when I was lying down, it was fine. But the moment I was getting up, um, the pressure um was shifting from my head, uh, like you know, the spine and the spinal fluids were just so leaking through that puncture. I don't know exactly medically how you would describe this problem, but um, I basically was um having too little of this um liquid in my brain, and that led to these like pressures, this this it's called an underpressure, and it's just horrible. Like, I've I mean I had headaches in the past, but it was the worst pain in my life. Um, and imagine like you're just a new mother, you have this baby that you're supposed to breastfeed every couple hours, your body has been going through lots of things and it needs to like heal.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, it was just insane having to deal with all of these different I remember because I I found out about the situation um through Instagram because you shared your story there, and I was thinking, oh my god, this is so much to take in. Just the fact that you just transitioned from being a pregnant woman, first a woman and then a pregnant woman, and then becoming a mom. It's a transition, and then basically you find out that something is wrong and something needs to be done. It's a lot of things to take in. But walk us through the process. So you basically, um, after giving birth, you had those headaches. When did you find out that something is wrong?
SPEAKER_00So it was day 10 or 11 after labor when I woke up one morning and I saw everything twice. And it was crazy because at that time also I thought, you know, this headache thing, okay, it's it's getting a bit too long, and I'll probably need to get checked. But this the scene twice thing, I didn't think about it as a neurological symptom. At that time, I was like, okay, maybe something's wrong with my eyes, and I tried to squint and stuff like that. And I was even laughing at my husband. I'm like, uh-huh, I see you twice. So my my I think my midwife came that day or the next day, and I was telling her, I'm like, you know, I have this like I see things twice. Like, is that is that like a symptom of you know, postpartum symptom or anything like that? Because you know, at that time I didn't, I didn't really relate every symptom to my um to the epidural or my brain or something like that. I was just thinking, and I was at that time also I would WhatsApp with some friends who had babies or you know, who had been through these processes, and some of them were like, Yeah, you know, some women have extreme headaches or you know, symptoms like that. So it was really hard for me to understand like what is normal and what is not normal. But what happened was my midwife was telling me, I think that day or the next day, you know, something is wrong, you need to go back to the hospital and uh tell them what's happened because this could be, you know, something related to epidural. And then my husband was really taking the initiative. Um, I think on that day we immediately went to the clinic where I um gave birth. The problem was that clinic is just specialized in birthing um and gynecology, so nothing related to brains or it would they didn't even have a neurology department, and they were like super overwhelmed. I think the anesthesiologist came and was like, hmm, you know, this could be something completely else. Maybe you should go to another clinic and get like an MRI or a scan, a CT scan. So they were kind of like, um, yeah, it felt like they wanted to get rid of me and did not own up to what happened, and that was super frustrating because, you know, I have the small baby with me, even leaving the house to go to a hospital or to a doctor for checkups. I mean, that's crazy. Um, on top of it, not knowing what's wrong with you. Um, so I was super emotional. I think I broke down in the hospital, cried a lot. I was like, please help me. And I just remember that nurse coming with an address of another clinic and telling us, you know, we called them, we have uh some type of appointment for you, just go there now. And we drove to that other clinic and uh we spoke to a neurologist. Um, that lady was, uh I think that professor was specialized on headaches, and she was telling me, you know, this could be also something completely else, like um, you know, women experience crazy headaches and can sometimes have these symptoms. So she basically sent me home, not scanning me or anything like that. And that was also crazy because now I think, oh my god, we could have acted so much more early and we could have gotten better um treatment. But it was just this whole fight with the healthcare system started at that point. We were calling around doctors. My husband was really taking the lead here. He was like, you know, this is not normal. He started reading a lot of medical papers on the internet, and he himself, you know, connected the dogs and he was like, we need this, we need that. And he talked to his father, my father-in-law, who has a lot of doctor friends in Pakistan, and you know, like across our own network, we just like uh tried to figure things out. And um, I think the day I got my first MRI, I think maybe that was two weeks after the whole uh after birth, um, like that was the day when the healthcare system kind of woke up. And I remember getting out of the MRI. I don't want to even go through that experience, like even retelling it. I was so claustrophobic inside of that machine. It was so loud and I was panicking. But anyway, I I managed somehow. And I remember sitting in the office um of this uh radiologist um who came back with the results of the MRI, and he was literally, he had like he was sweating, like he was like so uncomfortable. He looked at us and he was like, You need to immediately go to the hospital. Like you cannot go home like this. You have um, I think at that time, what was it called? I didn't have uh a hematoma at that point, but it was I basically leaked so much of this liquid, my brain was like completely like shifting, and it it I needed to lie down and literally like get treatment. Um, so yeah, that's the day when we were like, oh my god, we have a problem, we need to really take action. Yeah, and then basically going back to that neurologist who was then convinced, oh, okay, there's something. Uh, let me just think, what can we do? And then they gave me a blood patch, which is basically sort of like a second epidural to close the hole at the where the puncture is, so that this liquid is not leaking out anymore. Again, I'm sorry if I'm not explaining things medically correct. This is just like my subjective um, yeah, the way I perceive the whole procedure. Um, but that uh blood patch also it just helped a little bit. Like I remember a day after that I did not see things twice anymore, but the headaches did not really stop. And um fast forward, I developed a subdural hematoma, which is basically like blood was um leaking, or like the cells or the nerves around my the barrier between the brain and the the skull. There's like this barrier, and like blood was released. I don't know exactly how it happened, I guess from the pressure, and the body was not able to absorb it itself, so I needed to get a surgery. Um, and I had a yeah, I had a brain surgery seven weeks postpartum, um, where they had to basically drill two holes into my brain from the right side and release that um excess blood. Um, until that point, from labor to the seven weeks, that was this this phase of um not knowing what's wrong with me and trying to like stay strong and positive, having a small newborn to take care of, um, running around doctors and hospitals, getting scans done and MRIs. It was just crazy. Like, I think during that time I did not realize what was happening. I was just going with the flow, we had to do things, but in hindsight, I'm like, oh my goodness, I I wish I was just lying in bed. Like, this is what you're supposed to do, just heal and just connect with your baby.
SPEAKER_01I think that's it. We need to highlight that this was not even two months um after you gave birth. And apart from you being a mom now taking care of a baby, that you need to get to know. Because obviously, when the baby is out, it's not just, oh my god, uh, mother and mom are naturally bonded. Yes, it is like that sometimes, but sometimes it needs it needs a little bit of time because you need to get to know your child, what works and what doesn't work. And it the way you describe it, it's like the first few weeks were not about that. The first few weeks were basically about finding out what's wrong with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you know, I tried to make it about my baby. I actually, there were a lot of moments I did. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't think about myself that much. I think it was more my husband and people around me who were like, listen, you girl, lie down, or you know, but I myself, I really wanted it to be about my baby. I still like I was like, I want to like take out that stroller out for a walk with my baby. This was this was like my biggest dream during that time. Like, when will I be able to walk outside my baby in the stroller? I know it's ridiculous. You're not even supposed to do this at an early stage, but I was like so excited to be a mom that sometimes that energy, that positivity was, I think that helped me to get through it. I was so excited about trying out my the newborn clothes and and you know, I don't know, bathe my baby and stuff like that. So we did all of these things as well. It was happening parallel to my health story. It's it's just crazy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's funny when you um just shared how your husband reacted, uh immediately something went off in my head, and it was like, okay, normally we tell people not to self-diagnose themselves. But to be honest, when we look at this situation, this probably um helped for you to find out what's wrong and to get the help that you need.
SPEAKER_00Yes. He he read these medical papers, and you know, medical papers are really long, and he figured out like that woman had this, and also she had this like symptom, and then they she got this done. And he would tell me these things, like before I had to be because I had to speak to the neurologist myself, and he would be like, Ask her, you know, whether you need a blood patch or whether you need this and that. And like it really helped, and it was liberating because you know, when you just wait for the doctors to explain things to you, and also they don't, you know, use language that sometimes satisfies your knowledge, you know. It it just really helped that he um got all the information and his father also researching and talking to his friends and doctors. So we it it felt like we had to do it on our own, which is sad, but um on the other hand, it was liberating.
SPEAKER_01Do you want to talk about the surgery and how it took place and what happened after? Or is this something you wouldn't really like to touch on?
SPEAKER_00No, I would like to because um the day of the surgery is not really the key day for me that was traumatic. You know, the surgery went well, it was a two-hour um surgery. I was like, obviously, I had um anesthesia, so I didn't, I wasn't realizing what was happening. And uh the neurosurgeons were super really efficient, really well. We went to a really good hospital in Munich. I think it's one of the biggest hospitals in Germany. So we had to basically, so there was this phase before I got the surgery where we had to wait it out because it could have been that my body was gonna heal itself. And on that day I got the surgery, I got a scan in the morning, and based on that scan, they would, you know, decision was gonna be made about my surgery or not. So I was really hopeful up to that date. I'm like, maybe, you know, the MRI results will be amazing, and my body has healed, and I was just imagining how my brain has healed, and I tried all of this, like you know, positive thinking. Um, but the results came in and it looked even worse. So that was so shattering. And then going to that um appointment with the neural neurosurgeon who was like, we need to immediately do something today. So, you know, you're gonna stay here for the next eight days, you're not going anywhere. And I wasn't really prepared, I didn't even pack my suitcase because I was so hopeful, you know, maybe the MRI scan will be positive. And I remember that moment when I was told I'm gonna get a surgery with two um, you know, where they're gonna like make two holes into my skull. Like that was the scariest moment. And I broke down in front of neurosurgeon. I was like, no, I don't want this, I don't want to get the surgery. Um, also, she scared me when she said, It may be that we do a window. And I remember that word window. What is a window? It's basically they they, you know, make a window in your skull and open that piece like a puzzle, and then that's how they remove the excess blood. And I was so scared of like my, you know, my skull getting like, you know, getting any treatment on your brain. Like if you have, if you break your arm or your leg, you get surgery, it doesn't feel as scary, at least not for me, but like your brain is so and um getting your skull, you know, getting holes or a window into your skull, like that was so crazy. So I have this moment of panic and denial, and I went to the bathroom, I remember sobbing. But you know, Iman, that was it. Like that was maybe 10 minutes, and then I think my body shifted to okay, we need to get this done. The adrenaline came in. I was like, okay, we're gonna get through this. So I was immediately planning the whole thing out, and I remember getting calls. My father-in-law called me, everyone was so sad that I would go through a surgery, and obviously they tried to be positive, but I could feel everyone was super scared as well. And I was like trying, I was calming people down. I'm like, that's gonna be fine. I've I've had like, you know, my wisdom teeth removed. I had like been, I have been through a surgery, it's gonna be fine. I tried to cheer people up, and it's crazy. I got this burst of energy, and it really helped me. I remember then immediately we after that appointment when I was told I'm gonna get a surgery, they already assigned me to a hospital room. And the great thing was they gave us a family room. I'm so grateful for that. So my husband got a bed, our baby got a bed, and knowing that we're all gonna stay in the same place for this the next eight days calmed me down. I don't know how how I would have been dealing with it if you know my baby had to go home with my husband, and like I was breastfeeding every hour at that point, um, or every second. I don't know, it was just intense because you know, my baby was just so small. And yeah, it was crazy. I was really full of energy at that point. I was positive. Yeah, what I also did was I breastfed it like I breastfed Ada like crazy because I was like, I need to pump my baby up with all the milk I can give. I don't know what's gonna happen afterwards. That was also a big issue, by the way. We asked the hospital stuff, what's gonna happen if I go through surgery? Will I be able to breastfeed after the surgery? You know, because I'll be pumped with medication or even the anesthesia, um, the the drug medicine, whatever. Is it safe? And no one knew. No one was able to tell me, you know, you're gonna be fine, you can do this, you can do that. There were a million, like maybe two, three. We asked for different doctors. There were different doctors coming into our room and we were asking, you know, is it safe to breastfeed? Everyone was like, hmm, no, not sure. So then again, my husband went on Google and he Googled and he found out himself that it's safe and it's okay, you just have to wait out until you're, you know, off after the patient is woken up, then the drugs are kind of out of the body, then it's okay. But things like that, like we had to, you know, I learned so much about you have to be your own, what do you call it? Like you have to take care of yourself and be in charge of your own body.
SPEAKER_01I always say listen to your gut feeling. You probably know best what's wrong first with you, but also with the other thing. Yeah, I think I would listen to my gut feeling in my my body.
SPEAKER_00And you know our bodies really tell us what's going on. And I think a lot of the times we don't really listen closely and we just get overruled by our minds. Yeah and getting professional help. I think I I mean I always knew you know I'm gonna get support I'm gonna get a therapist and I did eventually and it helped me so much. But I think I could have started way earlier and um and not only just you know a therapist but by asking friends and their support groups. For instance in in my community there was a breastfeeding support group which I joined when my daughter was four months old and when I was in that group I was like oh my god there's something like that people talk about the same problems. It was so healing and so nice to just have you know other mothers in the same room and we were talking about the same problems and issues and I was just thinking I could have started earlier you know um and and just last but not least a village like you really need a village to raise a child. It's not just you and your husband and your baby I mean you can you can do it and if you have to do it by yourself by no means like you can do that. But I think um involving your friends and family is very very important. And when we encountered all our issues I think there was a moment before my surgery my husband just posted on Instagram like this very emotional post asking people for help people in Munich who could bring us food or you know run errands for us because we were not able to and it was unbelievable how people responded and friends were organizing WhatsApp groups and you know setting up like Excel sheets you know organizing who's gonna bring what when and we had this tremendous support from just one small outcry and we were just like wow like why didn't we ask earlier because we were suffering for weeks um so that was also a great reminder that you know you need a community you need a village and you just need to ask people don't know what you're going through just ask for help. So I wanted to ask you how did motherhood as a whole change you and especially when it comes to your own experience with motherhood what would you what what would you say changed for you the most it was a lot of contrasting experiences and emotions um it was really an emotional roller coaster and because of my difficult start I felt very isolated. So the beginning was very tough for me. I had a lot of feelings but I which I could not really translate into words. I really tried and I had friends and family around and it was it was great to have the presence of people but it was really hard to like take the time to really you know be aware of what's happening inside of my body and I when I was going through the brain surgery and in the aftermath I felt very frightened I was very scared to die actually and this worry will I be there for my child what happens if I'm not there and this was really overruling a lot of my days um and I didn't really tell anyone at that time I just kept it to myself and I think I should have communicated earlier because you know talking really helps and it's so healing. And I also realized now that I was having a lot of traumatic um moments during the beginning which at that time were not really clear to me and that's why my body was for instance um like I felt like I lost control over my body. So for instance that was a huge experience I was really scared you know what happens if um I get paralyzed because of my brain surgery I just had all kinds of worry suddenly I I would freak out when I was feeling numb and I would be like oh my god I don't have control over my body and um again I kept that inside of me because when I was telling that to my husband he would get freaked out and he was just he's that kind of person who would immediately drive me to the hospital and I didn't want that stress so I was I was just keeping quiet and just later during my therapy sessions and I was actually also doing this emotional first aid. It's a really cool um program by this woman who uh works for this family center where I was also going for the breastfeeding support groups anyway so she was really like I don't I wouldn't say teach me but like reminding me of my body and my heart and helped me really communicate with myself and gave me very nice tools to work with to really identify you know what's going on inside of me. What is my heart saying is my heart beating when I ask a certain question to myself and just even just putting my hand on my heart and trying to like talk to my heart. I know it sounds very like maybe even ridiculous but it was so profound to me and I learned so much about my body and my um what's going on inside of me. And yeah just really acknowledging the fact that um trauma happens and it's not bad and all of us have traumatic experiences on some level and getting the professional help is so crucial. Yeah so motherhood in the beginning was that kind of um what I was just talking about. Now two years along the road I feel so much more confident I feel happy I feel grounded. I feel like I've arrived and it was a journey I think the first year was sort of like another pregnancy into you know becoming a mother and you don't just you know give birth and you are like a mother I think it really takes time now again after two years I feel I feel in a good place.
SPEAKER_01Yes motherhood is definitely a learning process and as we for both of us established in so many conversations when it came to this everything and every day is a new experience and we have to take it as it comes and it takes time to feel confident in the things we do especially if there are so opinion so many opinions around us and everybody is meaning well definitely but at the end of the day it's you and your child and your family and you definitely know best what is what is good for your child and for yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and we talked about this like people interfere and there are new challenges now everyone wants to tell you how to potty train and how to yes exactly your child is speak or whatever it is it's it's yeah new challenges now. Yes.
SPEAKER_01I thank you so much for participating I really enjoy our conversations generally but I'm so so honored that you decided to do this with me and thank you for sharing your story. You're welcome and thank you so much for offering me a platform to share my experiences I hope um this is helpful for some people I'm sure it's gonna help a lot of people thank you so much thank you so much for listening I hope you enjoyed the episode so far if you have any questions or suggestions please don't hesitate to reach out you can find me on social media Facebook Twitter Instagram the handle is always @saidintherapy