Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life. My name is Iman Tohami and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties, and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories. So I was a bit insecure about how to proceed with the podcast given that I have pre-recorded a lot of content that I only needed to edit, and also had a few interviews lined up with a few wonderful people. However, given the circumstances and everything that's going on at the moment, I think the right thing to do is to maybe produce a bit more episodes that are related to current circumstances and to the current state of the world. I want to take the time and acknowledge that I read and see all your messages and questions. I will do my very best in the future to produce more episodes and record more episodes that answer all your questions. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to stop sharing the content that I have already recorded. And maybe it's a good way to get your mind off everything that's going on at the moment. So yeah, here I am. This episode is going to be about um burnout. And for this one, I had the pleasure to be recording with a very, very special person that I have met here in the Netherlands. Her name is Fatma. She also has a very strong internet presence on Instagram, but mainly she is a student for European studies politics, and she experienced the first symptoms as a student. So let us go with her on her journey where she shares with us how she found out about her diagnosis, what happened to her, and how she feels today. And hopefully, you can benefit from the conversation that we had. Here we go.
SPEAKER_00So the first time I realized was um, yeah, actually, I already was realizing that I was getting tired like all the time. But I thought, oh well, everyone gets tired, right? I mean, it's not something new. Everyone is working or studying or like living their life, and people get tired, right? So I'm not the only one. So I kept ignoring uh the fact that I was tired tired all the time, either even if I woke up or like uh had a long sleep, I would still be tired. Um, but after a while I thought, okay, um, I I already suffer from uh iron deficiency, and I thought, okay, let me go do a test and see how I'm doing, right? So um I went and my iron was dangerously low. I had to go to the emergency. And um when I was there, they they kept telling me that it's it's not. They were very confused as to how I was still standing up with this level of iron uh and and functioning and everything. And then they said, okay, you have to take care of your vitamins and everything. But then, even though I started taking uh the iron and the vitamins, I still felt very tired and um it was not going away. And that's when I kept going to the doctors, and uh, I spent a lot of months going to a lot of different doctors, and in the end, you know, it kept getting worse and worse and worse. Um, I would sleep so long, like over 13 hours, and wake up as if I had not slept at all. Um, I couldn't even get out of my bed um in the morning to go to school or to work, and it was just horrible. And then I finally went to the doctor again, and then he told me, Well, I think you have a severe form of burnout, and you should just stop, stop everything and and rest. So uh that is roughly how how it went.
SPEAKER_01So when you hear something like that from a doctor telling you you have a severe form of burnout, obviously it activates a lot of emotions for you. What really happened internally um is something really you have to describe first, but second, how did you deal with whatever feelings that coming were coming across for you? I mean, looking at it, it's sometimes very hard to see an emotion and deal with it even without burnout. So, how did you deal with it with a burnout?
SPEAKER_00So when I got diagnosed, at first I was a bit of in denial. I'm like, no, I'm not in a burnout. Um, this is something that happens to older people because it's actually really like a working uh class uh issue, like I or like people who are in their 40s and 50s and have worked their whole life, those are the people that got a burnout, but not someone who who was 22 at the time. So at first I was in denial, and I was just like, no, in a week I'm gonna get better and go back to school. Um but yeah, it took me a very long time to realize and accept the fact that okay, I am sick, I have to take it slow, I have to stop everything I'm doing right now, and I have to listen to my body and rest. And that was a process that took a long time because I was um in shock, I was um very distressed and unhappy, and I got a lot of anxiety and panic attacks just from the fact that you know, I I used to go to school and do a lot of things, and suddenly I had to stay home and do nothing. That was like a very big shock for me, and I couldn't deal with it well. So it took me some time to actually accept the fact that okay, uh I have a burnout, I have to change a lot of stuff now and stop just doing stuff and rest. And um, yeah, it it took a long time, but I think the first step in all of this is just accepting the fact that yeah, it it is how it is.
SPEAKER_01In retrospect, do you see where your health declined? And would you now, in retrospect, also say I was too hard on myself, or maybe I should have taken it slow before I reached that point?
SPEAKER_00Definitely, yeah. Um, like now it has been two years now, so um, with a burnout, it takes a lot of time to recover. So I could still even say that until now I'm recovering, but uh, I'm much better now than I used to be before. In retrospect, yeah, of course, I was so hard on myself. Uh, I'm such a perfectionist. Um, and you know, there is nothing wrong with people being perfectionists in their work and stuff, but when it affects your daily life and your uh way of thinking, it really becomes dangerous. Um, and you're not satisfied with yourself and you're too harsh on yourself. Um, I ignored a lot of symptoms and just kept on going. And I thought that okay, this is how it should be. And um, I am a student, I have to work hard, get high grades, um uh do a lot of things outside uni to build my CV, uh say yes to a lot of stuff. And uh yeah, I had to learn to say no, I had to learn to listen to my body, to uh take my time, realize that how do you say that? Uh like rules of finishing in terms of age. I know it's a big thing in our culture, like at that age you should be finished, and that age you should do that and that, but it's bullshit. Everyone has their own pace, and you should honor that. And at the end of the day, if you're not taking care of your health and your body, then you know you're not gonna do anything. So you should really listen to your body and take care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the way you describe it, it sounds like one day you woke up and then suddenly you had a burnout. And I I just want to explain to everyone that this is not how it works. Obviously, you had years and weeks leading up to that moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Can you describe this phase a little bit? What led to this burnout?
SPEAKER_00So basically, I think it all started like um, you know, like my whole life I was pretty like um a very serious student. I always made sure that I uh studied a lot, uh, long, long hours, long days, always aiming for the highest grade. And if I didn't get the highest grade, I would retake the exam and just go all over again. Um and then I also worked, I wouldn't give myself a lot of breaks or days off. And I thought that was normal because I thought everyone was doing that, you know, around me as well. So I think it all built up like year after year, I would repeat the same patterns, and I didn't even realize because I was doing something that I love, I chose a study uh that I really like, and I didn't really realize that things were going wrong, and because also in this society, you know, it it's like everyone is working so hard and people are tired all the time. So I thought, okay, this is normal, right? I mean, this is life. So um, towards the end, like before I was diagnosed, that is what that is when it all deteriorated. That's when um I got really tired. Uh no matter what I did, I would always be tired. Um, I would have like physical symptoms, and at the end, the straw, let's say, was the fact that I couldn't even get out of bed. So um at the time I didn't realize why it all went downhill so fast. But when I started my therapy and started looking back to uh the timeline and everything, I realized, of course, the patterns. And um therapy really helped me realize what went wrong and how it all happened. But when you're there in the moment, you don't see it. So that's why when you take a step back, a few steps back actually, and and have this overview, then you can realize okay, this is what I did wrong, and this is how I learned from these mistakes, so I don't repeat them again. So, no, it's definitely not something that happens overnight. No, it's been an accumulation of a lot of things when you're like too stubborn, maybe, or maybe you don't know, because it's also something that we don't get taught at school, right? About mental health and taking care of yourself. So when you don't know, you just keep on going till it happens. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're obviously a person with a Middle Eastern background. This is how I call it, or this is how I want to call it. I think just to make the context a little bit clearer. What I'm interested in is okay, you mentioned you went to therapy. Therapy is not really something discussed, period, in our culture. But when you were presented with those options and one of them was therapy, how did you react to it? And more importantly, how did your family react?
SPEAKER_00So at first, when I got diagnosed, I was immediately uh sent to therapy. Um, and basically because the symptoms that I had, uh, some of them are physical, but it was like at best taking vitamins and and and and all the things that that I had to take. But um that there was no real like physical medicine like we know in Middle East, right? Like you have a headache, you take a medicine and it's over. No. So um for me when when my doctor said therapy, at first, because I was in a very like I was in a like in shock basically because I thought, okay, well, like burnout, and and how are you gonna do how are his how is therapy gonna deal with a burnout? But I was very open about it and I went and thank God my family as well. But but because of course it's not a really discussed topic within our culture and in the Middle East, we go into it, but we have no idea what it's about. And and we're just yeah, it was a very foreign thing for me. But um, I had an open mind about it, and I went, and that is what actually really helped me to get back on my feet. So um, and obviously I started doing my research as well on Google. So um I think because we never get taught that in in our culture, but also, you know, I I live in Europe and we don't really like of obviously in the Middle East is a bigger taboo than here, but even here we don't really get a lot of information about mental health or awareness. So I guess I had to do a lot of self-research and and uh self-learning, and that's how I got there.
SPEAKER_01Did you like the approach of therapy? I mean, you said you basically had no idea whatsoever what you what to expect, and then you go in and you meet with a person that you don't know, and that person expects you to open up about your circumstances. Um, did you struggle at first, or was this something you would not only at first, but not per se because of the the the idea of therapy, but basically because I was very tired.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't do anything, like even basic walking and stuff was really tiresome for me. I couldn't do a lot, even thinking, like I was constantly thinking all the time, but a lot of small things uh were so tiring for me, and like the fact that I had to go physically go to therapy was like it was a lot for me. So I went in there and I was also um very anxious. I also got diagnosed with with with uh anxiety. Um and in that in that period as well, because I had to stop everything abruptly, I also felt like it in a depression because um it was all just like a shock for me and I didn't know how to handle it. So normally I'm the kind of person who is very like open and would go and no problem. But I think my first few therapy sessions were like me being very quiet, not having any uh energy, not wanting to do anything. Um, but that was more the state I was in, more so than me being opposed to therapy or something. So yeah, it is very difficult. I mean, um especially when you have to open yourself up in front of a stranger, of course, it's difficult and it and it takes energy. Um, and when you're already like drained and burnt out, it's even harder.
SPEAKER_01Burnout is a very complex diagnosis. So when you have burnout, you deal with so many layers of um mental stress. So when you say you were depressed and you had anxiety, and uh overall it falls under the umbrella of burnout, but how did it manifest for you? What did you struggle with more? So if you say you are you were basically tired all the time, then yeah, we could say we could conclude this is more leaning into depression, but then on the other hand, you say, okay, but I also had a lot of anxiety. Um, how did you reconcile the situation with the state you're in, a, the state you're in, and B where you wanted to be? Because all of us we have a vision of ourselves, and when this vision doesn't fit to the situation you're in at the moment, it's almost like you're falling out of place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So for me, like I said, it was like uh the the the big part of it was accepting, and at first I wasn't ex accepting of the situation at all, and that's what made it all hard on me. Um, also because um at one point, you know, um I was someone who always had a full agenda, I would do a lot of stuff and uh go to school, go to work, go with friends, and suddenly you're just in your room. Um, and you you can't you can't do anything anymore, even if you want to, you just can't because your buddy is just saying, no, I I I cannot. Um, and then people around you are doing all this stuff and you're just sitting there, and um, it's it's it's just very difficult, you know. So for me, the first part was accepting, and that took a long time. And afterwards, um, I think therapy really helped me to see like the the toxic patterns that I was following, um, why I tired myself so much and why I was so stressed out all the time and where my anxiety came from. So it's it took some time. Um but you know, now I realize what went wrong and and and how I how do I not fall in these patterns anymore? And I'm really self-conscious now. Um so the th the thing is with the burnout, it takes a long time. It takes like I think maybe one to three years.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00It really depends. So um that that that is the shitty part about it, because you like with with any illness, you want to take a medicine and be okay right away. But with the burnout, it doesn't work that way. So, and it's not only physical, but you have to take care of yourself physically and mentally, and it's a lot of work. So, yeah, it's it's it's a process. It's a process.
SPEAKER_01So, how do you maintain this? I mean, obviously you said you're much better now, but how do you maintain a state where you feel comfortable? Can you feel now that you are doing or overdoing something? And can you tell yourself to stop?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, definitely. So um I also had to accept the fact that my energy levels are not gonna be the same as before, and that was a very hard pill for me to swallow. Um, because I thought, okay, I'm gonna get better. But the thing is, um, your body is so tired and it's really like um charging itself up. So it's not gonna be like uh back in the day. So um now I'm just I I plan my week um very carefully. I make sure that I'm not uh spending a lot of hours on on on like I'm I'm like um dividing my time equally about my study and my work. Um if there's like an event or friends want to go hang out, I I I'm putting a limit to myself. So uh if I have the energy, I go. If I'm not, then I don't, and I learn to say no, and I try to plan in a lot of free days as well. Um, so I just kind of also rest and recharge. So it's a matter of of like being very conscious about your body and planning, and even if someone something uh doesn't go to plan, you just accept it and move on. So yeah, it it it's a it takes a bit of of practice, uh obviously, and you have to be like forgiving of yourself, but you also have to be um strict in the sense that you learn to say no and that you listen to your body and put your boundaries. So um yeah, it it it's a process again.
SPEAKER_01You talked a lot about acceptance and that you had to learn to accept. I mean, where was the difficulty at first? Obviously, I know that when you have again that vision of yourself and you're not really fulfilling or fitting into this vision anymore, it's something very hard to accept. I can see that. But at the same time, it's almost like you had to fight the diagnosis because you didn't want it to be real. Yeah, when did that shift happen? When did you realize, okay, no, there is something very serious going on, and I have to take it seriously?
SPEAKER_00I think it happened in parts because sometimes I would think that I accepted it, but then something else would happen, and then I realized, oh, wait, I didn't really accept it. So I think my full acceptance came after a year, which is a lot. But again, in that year I learned so much, and um, when I tried to get up again and I failed, um, I had a bad time. But afterwards, I decided that okay, um I have to accept now that um I'm gonna continue. Um, if something does it doesn't happen according to plan, or if I fail at something, that is good too. That that is no problem. I mean, if I'm gonna stress about every time something happens or every little detail, I'm gonna get sick again and it's gonna be much worse. So now I have this mentality where I just I started school again and um I am starting slowly doing the things that I like again, and if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, then I'm gonna like fall and and and stand up and cry again. So that is the the ultimate uh mindset that you want to achieve um instead of the whole perfectionist thing and stressing about every little detail and getting anxious. And of course, I still got anxious, I still have to deal sometimes with panic attacks, sometimes I I I get sad and and and a bit angry, but you know, it's all part of life at the end of the day, just as long as I also enjoy the things that I do and not stress about it too much and go with the flow, basically.
SPEAKER_01You're obviously very young, and I can see that when you hear something like burnout, that you connect in a way with people who are much, much older. And looking at yourself, you think, okay, how can I have a burnout? I'm not that old yet. But then you see all this workload that you have to carry as a student. I mean, looking back, if you were yourself and you could talk to yourself um before you started studying, what is the one piece of advice you would give yourself?
SPEAKER_00Uh, just relax, I guess. Because um I know that as a student, we have um obviously studying is not something that you do from nine to five and come back and that's it. No, studying is going to the lectures and doing a lot of things, uh uh meetings and exams and projects and groups, and it's a non-stop, sometimes it seems nonstop. And besides that, you have to uh get some experience and build your CV and you want to impress um this and that, and you just want to like also you want to enjoy your student time. So it's a lot of stuff that we want to do in like a span of five or six years. But I think, and and by the way, I thought that I was the only one, um, but when I um went back to school, I realized that I'm definitely not the only one. There were a lot of other students who are also suffering from burnout, and it's actually a phenomenon that is uh currently growing in the student population. Obviously, we know that that teachers and staff have those problems, but now it's growing even more within uh within the student population. So that also gave me this insight that in today's society, you know, we also have we have this this burden as students, but also like with social media and constantly comparing yourself and and the fact that we have to achieve so much when we're so young. But yeah, we're young and we also have to enjoy life and relax and do things that make us happy and not put so much pressure on on studying and and getting a job. And I I think it's all gonna be alright as long as you do your best. You cannot do more than your best. So, yeah, it's really a a process of learning, I guess, and also because we don't get this information in school something, it's like have to deal with or do your research on yourself. If I could say something to myself, is just relax and take it easy, and it's gonna be all right.
SPEAKER_01The last question I want to ask you is actually in two parts. The first part is the relationships in your life have they changed? And if yes, in what way?
SPEAKER_00I guess um I was very open to my uh friends and family about um, for example, setting boundaries. When I'm tired, I'm tired. Like if, for example, people are doing something and I'm just not able to come because like I'm tired and I'm listening to my body, that I communicate that with them. And they are very actually very responsive and and and and very understanding. And um, when I say no, they understand that okay, that is a boundary that she is setting, and it's because of her health, so that is no problem. So, um I guess in a way, um, my the people around me have been very helpful, and it has been it, yeah, it has been a very long process since I got diagnosed and everything. Uh, but thank God, you know, if it wasn't for their help, uh, I don't know what I've been doing. So uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. The last question that I have for you is did you have any negative um experience in response to your health status?
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Most people don't understand what a burnout is, especially people my age. We're in our 20s, and it's it's not something that you get in your 20s, basically. Um, so when you say, Oh, I have a burnout, people, some people don't understand. And they're like, Oh, but why don't you just go home and sleep or take a weekend off? And I wish it was that easy, uh, but it isn't. Um, so I guess it's just a lack of awareness and ignorance about what a burnout is that people uh don't take you seriously or just yeah, don't r respond with a lot of empathy. But yeah, it's uh it's it's a lack of of awareness. And now when I talk to someone and I they say that they're also having like these symptoms or they're also on a fence of a burnout, I sympathize with them even more because I have been in that that situation and I try to help them as well. So yeah, it's all about what you know and what you've experienced.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Fatma, for doing this. I know it's not the easiest thing to open up like this, but I think a lot of people from will benefit from your experience. It's so good that you are sharing this.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode so far. If you have any questions or suggestions, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can find me on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. The handle is always @saidintherapy.