Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life. My name is Iman Tohami, and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties, and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories. So this is the second part of the impostor syndrome episode. And I have gotten so many questions that I wanted to touch on a little bit before we continue with the interview. So I have gotten a lot of requests to clarify what it means that the imposter syndrome is not really listed in a manual or a handbook or any kind of textbook that helps us psychologists to identify the issue. So here's the thing The imposter syndrome is a new label that we use or that is being used for low self-esteem in a contextual way. So that means if you're struggling to be performing or to perform in a certain manner that you think you should, and if you're questioning your own abilities over and over again, let's say in the work setting, for instance, and you have a problem recognizing how much you actually have accomplished, that is actually a matter of low self-esteem. So the imposter syndrome falls under the umbrella of low self-esteem. And this is why we haven't recognized it in a handbook or in a manual or any other textbook. That doesn't mean that we don't handle the imposter syndrome a little differently. It only means that we have to adjust to the circumstances to which the low self-esteem is actually occurring. So, what is the context here? How do we approach the issue? How do we deal with the patient? How do we make him understand that there are tools and ways for him or her to get better? I think first and foremost, for everybody who is suffering from something like that, is to understand that self-esteem is a very important thing for you to carry on through life happily and content. On the other hand, I want you to understand that this is in no shape or form telling you that your issues are not real, because low self-esteem is very real. It only depends in what context it occurs or in what context you feel the lowest. So for you to understand where you stand in a certain situation is the first step for you to understand how you can improve. And the second most requested question or the second most asked question was if it is really necessary to seek help, help from a therapist or psychologist if you suffer from low self-esteem or the imposter syndrome. Absolutely not. So if you can balance yourself out in a way that you understand, okay, this is something external, it has nothing to do with me, it has nothing to do with my abilities and skills, and you can go back to the thought and find some sort of center that you can go back to and realize that you are actually someone who is accomplished, who deserves what they have gotten, then you don't need anyone to help you through this. The reality of therapy is not someone with a magic wand giving you a secret remedy to improve. Therapy is guidance and nothing else. So if you find yourself struggling in any capacity, I will try to resolve it myself first. And then if this doesn't work out, maybe you can go and talk to someone you trust. And if after that you still find yourself struggling, then it's maybe worth the thought for you to seek someone to help you through this professionally. Is it absolutely necessary? Again, absolutely not. But I want you to understand that therapy is not labeling you as someone incapable of overcoming their problems alone. Therapy, if anything, labels you as someone who understands that they need a little bit of guidance to help themselves through the issue or problem. The third question that I have gotten a lot is if the imposter syndrome is part of burnout. Well, to explain this a little more, again, I said self-esteem is basically one of the keys for you to live happily and content, at peace with yourself and the world. If you have a hard time balancing out your self-esteem, working on your self-esteem and understanding your worth, then you will struggle in many fields, many areas of your life. Self-esteem is also part of burnout, but to be very honest with you, there is almost no mental illness that is not linked to low self-esteem. The majority of people who come to therapy nowadays and who don't have a clinical diagnosis in that sense struggle with low self-esteem. And low self-esteem can always be a side symptom or a sub-symptom of another disease. So, what I want you to understand is if you are capable of listening to yourself and your needs, you will basically improve full stop, no matter what the problem is. So I promised you last week that we will basically interview some of my patients who struggle with the imposter syndrome. And let's just jump into it. So, Adrian, first, thank you so much for being with us today. Why don't you tell us about yourself? What made you think you need his help?
SPEAKER_00Last year I read this article online about the imposter syndrome. For a while, everyone on Twitter shared something about it, but I never took a moment to read about imposter syndrome until I felt something was wrong. My industry is very fast-paced and things change every day. It takes a lot of effort and energy to be constantly up to date. For a while I stopped sleeping and I ate while working. I adopted the mentality of minimalism to make my life easier, while it is really BS. I like to have a lot of things. I don't hoard, but I grew up in Latin household. Minimalism is kind of cold. I started to feel less at home in my own house. I just felt like when I live minimally, I save time. I did everything everyone suggests to become more efficient, but it felt crappy about it.
SPEAKER_01So to give the listeners context, you don't live in the States, in Silicon Valley, for example.
SPEAKER_00No, I lived my whole life in Mexico and moved to Amsterdam in 2016.
SPEAKER_01Tell us a little bit about your upbringing.
SPEAKER_00As I said, I never lived in a community where what I did was viewed as useful. I dropped out of school and didn't move on with my education, which was for my family the end of the world. For people like me, education is the only way out of misery. We had one computer in the house that I shared with my sisters. There was a schedule for when I was allowed to use it. I was not like the other kids. My world was online, but you know, I never felt lonely because the community that I had built over the years is simply amazing. No one cares about where you come from or how much you have in your bank account, as long as your work is clean and you have something useful to say. I learned to code when I was very young and started to get paid for it when I was 14. This is when my parents realized, cool, Adrian can actually help out, and they didn't mind when I used the computer so much.
SPEAKER_01How did you manage to leave the country? And was that always a goal for you?
SPEAKER_00Of course it was. I got very frustrated when I saw people in the States or Europe getting work for the that I can do as well, and sometimes better. But because I was privileged to be seen as much, I had to work double hard. I know I was good, but I always felt everyone was better. Now I know this is BS.
SPEAKER_01So, how did you land a job in Amsterdam?
SPEAKER_00I applied every day for every vacancy I could find until this one company hired me. I was single, so it was a quick decision.
SPEAKER_01And your family supported you?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So far, so good. But I think you need to explain why you decided you need help from, you know, a therapist.
SPEAKER_00I think I started to get depressed. I started to talk to a friend of mine about it, and she has had nothing to do with my field whatsoever. But she said she knows this lady, and she mentioned her husband is a software engineer. I was skeptical about, and I sent an email. In the end, I decided to try to because you offered online sessions.
SPEAKER_01That's it.
SPEAKER_00To be honest, yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh I didn't know that. I like your honesty.
SPEAKER_00But I also liked your approach.
SPEAKER_01You don't need to say that now.
SPEAKER_00No, it's true. I liked how you understood the field without being part of it. And you didn't simply say, take a break from everything. You know, maybe I have to thank your husband for that.
SPEAKER_01I always wondered if you know him or if he knows you, but I never asked.
SPEAKER_00I haven't met him, but I do my homework. He is very good.
SPEAKER_01I will make sure he hears this episode. Uh so back to you. What did you learn about yourself during the therapy process?
SPEAKER_00I learned that we are all winging it. I started to notice behaviors you highlighted in me with others. That made everything a lot easier. I became more forgiving, but also I started to plan for the future. I know now that I don't want to do code forever. It is good while it lasts. I will definitely stay in the field. But after five years or so, I will move to something else. That timeline helped me to focus on what I need to know now and what I will need to learn without overdoing it. I narrowed down what is really important to me.
SPEAKER_01Adrian, thank you so much for doing this. I know this was not easy. I want the people out there to know that Adrienne is not his real name, but he prefers to protect his privacy. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_01While we have established a certain degree of trust throughout the therapy sessions, it's a little different and difficult to open up when you know that someone else is recording you. So a lot of the details of Adrian's story are actually not really highlighted or coming out as they should. What I want you to understand is if you don't grow up in a place or in a way where you feel that you could do anything you want and that you can accomplish anything you put your mind to, it's very difficult to build that healthy self-esteem that helps you throughout everything you want to accomplish. In Adrian's story, there is one very important aspect that I want you to think about. He grew up in a country that didn't give him a lot of opportunity. So it's almost like you're looking out of the window, stuck in a house or in a room that you cannot leave. Trying to find a way out in itself is very difficult. And once you achieve that and you manage to leave that space and you find yourself in a totally new environment with totally new people, it can be very difficult for you to remember how good you are. You're constantly put in the state of comparing yourself to others. It's a very difficult situation. There are so many things that play a role in your socialization, in your upbringing, who is supporting you, who is surrounding you, who is helping you to achieve things. All of these questions are very, very important to look at before you judge a person based on what you see from the outside. For you to understand how someone feels from the inside, you need to understand the full person. In matters of self-esteem, I realize that many people tend to say, oh, come on, get over yourself or focus on the right things. While all of this has a bit of truth in it, you also need to consider that sometimes people who didn't have a lot of encouragement and didn't have a big support system, that it's not the easiest thing for them to establish the self-esteem that carries them through the next steps, that helps them to achieve the next milestones. So there is an inner battle that you have to fight, but also an external battle that you have to fight if you come from a society that didn't give you a lot of opportunity and chances to prove yourself. So if you're someone who knows someone who suffers from low self-esteem or the imposter syndrome in that case, offer support. Be a good friend. And that means don't try to tell them how to think and how to improve. Listen to the problems and try to navigate their thoughts in a way that they focus on the good, on the positive and not the negative. But if you recognize yourself in Adrian's story, here is the important thing that I want you to take away from this episode. Whatever dysfunctional thinking that you can recognize, and I'm sure if you think about it a little bit, you will understand and see immediately what kind of self-talk you direct to yourself. So if you can identify this dysfunctional thinking and the negative self-talk, try to battle it by focusing on the positive. I know it's easier said than done. And I know it is very powerful if you keep telling yourself years and years and years how bad you are to find something good. But this is actually the challenge. Sit down and make a list of all the things that you like about yourself and that you like about your work. Also try to identify that created that wounds that gave you low self-worth or this negative view on yourself. When you can identify the incidents that made you feel that way, or maybe the circumstances you grew up in that made you feel that way, when you can learn to rationalize them, you will feel better after a while. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode so far. If you have any questions or suggestions, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can find me on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. The handle is always @saidintherapy.