Safe To Be Seen
Join Brandon & Darci as they share raw human stories that were never meant to be hid. This is a space for truth, a home to the soul. You are safe to be seen - and to see.
Safe To Be Seen
Love Beyond Loss Keisha Sawyer on Grief, Spirituality, and What Makes Us Human
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When tragedy strikes—the kind that shatters your world—what remains? In this profound conversation, we sit down with Keisha Sawyer, who lost her husband, son, and other family members in a car accident. Through the raw reality of grief, Keisha shares her journey toward healing, and the unexpected ways love transcends loss. This is a conversation about the deepest human experiences: the pain we endure, the connections that sustain us, and what it truly means to be human when everything changes.
Holos Healing: 30 Days of Somatic Meditation: https://darci-burke.mykajabi.com/offers/FXbMNHJ7/checkout
@safe2bseen
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I'm so glad. For me, when the accident happened, I'd been out of the church for seven years-ish. All the way out. Tattoos. I had all these. Like race designed my tattoos. Which is a really cool thing that I have now. But so I was all the way out. I can't imagine what it would have felt like to be in the church experiencing that. Like the turmoil that probably would have gone on in my body. The guilt, the shame, the fear, the and and any member listening to me is gonna be like, oh, she's so lost. And I get it. And I have so much compassion for it because I know I've been there where it's like, oh we gotta save him. It's not like that. It's actually the comp I felt the complete opposite. I'm so glad I did the work on myself. So that I can be here and I can breathe. Because breath was the only thing that was gonna save me. It didn't have anything to do with God. I didn't feel mad at God. It wasn't like that. It was more of like a gosh, but I if I can just I can just breathe one more breath. And I can just do one more. And I'm gonna stay one more time. Breathe another breath, and I'm gonna stay one more time. It felt kind of like like that for me.
SPEAKER_00Beep beep, beep beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
SPEAKER_05So much of our lives are shaped by scripts we never consciously chose. Patterns around love, success, safety, and belonging. And at some point, those scripts stop working. What once protected us starts to limit us. Safe to be seen is a space for honest conversations about that moment when your body knows it's time for something new. We talk about what it means to build safety first, so growth, intimacy, and expansion don't come at the cost of yourself. This podcast is about updating outdated identities, softening survival patterns, and learning how to stay present through change. We're Darcy and Brandon, and this is Safe to BC. Well, we are so excited to have Keisha Sawyer with us today in studio. Thank you, Keisha, so much for being here. We're so grateful that you're here. Um I first came to know you, Keisha, through a friend of mine, your brother-in-law, Mason. Um, Mason invited me to be on his podcast in May of 2023, so three years ago exactly.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_05Was when uh and Mason and I knew each other from playing morning basketball together. He's a heck of a ball player.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you said morning basketball?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, morning like old man basketball, you know? Like Mason wasn't one of the old men, but I was. And um I got to know Mason a little bit through that, and then he invited me to be on his podcast. I got to know him a little bit better through that, and then um all of a sudden, in in going to yoga, you being our yoga instructor, I pieced it all together and realized that you guys were family. And um just I don't want to speak for Darcy. I'll let you do your own speaking. But I will say that I have just been um incredibly impressed with your strength. And uh just your story is it's incredible. And um and Masons too, you know. You guys are in on it together and um has many times um brought me to tears and also provided a great deal of perspective and strength for me. And I know that that's not like things like that. I don't know how that feels to hear. I don't imagine that that of course makes something that difficult and tragic okay, but just know that you are a light for many people and an extraordinarily strong and beautiful example of of the human spirit and of strength. And I thank you. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Brandon.
SPEAKER_01Wow. I want to echo everything that Brandon said, and I haven't been as intimately connected to your guys' story because just because Brandon has um, you know, had the interview and he started going to your yoga class before I did, and he came home and was like, You gotta go to Keisha's class. Like she's amazing. And we had both just barely started getting into more yoga at the time, and so I went to your class for the first time, and it was like one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had. And it was the first time I've ever cried in a yoga class. And I think it's because you're so human in those, in that, in those, in those rooms that you like hold this space for people that has so much depth and so much realness and so much beauty that it's an energy that I think everybody in that room can feel. It's so powerful. And um, so I thank you for that. Like you come in there holding so much, I know, inside of yourself, but you still are able to hold this space for people in such a beautiful way, which I think is speaks so much to your depth and um to your beauty, like within you. And so I thank you for that. I never would have thought that I would have cried while working out, not out of like, but out of like pure uh joy and like pure soul. I love that. And so, like, if you are live in St. George, go to one of Keisha's classes for such a deep spiritual experience. It's it's become our new church on Sunday. And we've tried to get all of our kids to go. What we've gotten Emory to go, and and she loves it as well. And it's you just provide this pace space for people to feel so seen and so heard. And um, so I thank you for that. Yeah, and we've been so excited to have this conversation with you today. So thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_02You're welcome for that. Yeah, gosh, what an honor. I'm like gonna take a deep breath real quick. Just like I'm just gonna take that and accept that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you should.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and say, like, thanks for seeing me. It's cool to be a teacher who feels seen, you know, who's done a lot of work and um and feels seen in that space. Something that I get told often is like, gosh, I couldn't stop crying in your class, for instance. I have a really cool story. There was a man who came to my class at Beeha. This was before this was pre-accident, which I have to remind myself, like, oh yeah, like you've always been kind of cool, Keith. Like pre-accident, too, you were kind of cool. Pre-accident, this man came up to me after class, and he's very tan. You can tell he's maybe in construction. Um he's sobbing. He has a lot of dancer work that needs to be done. Um and he says, I don't know what just happened. I like stumbled into this class, I haven't cried in 17 years. I haven't cried in 17 years, and I couldn't stop crying here. And for me, it was like, you know, people are coming to give me a hug, and it's after class, and I'm coming kind of overwhelmed. But it but it was like a moment where I was like, this is just me and him here, and I'm just looking at him and I'm like, wow. Can I give you a hug? And he's like, Well, normally I would say no, but I want to give you a hug, give him a hug. And it was this moment of like, wow, like I don't race, my late husband Race used to always tell me, like, you have a power that you don't understand that like people, strangers even trust you to tell you their deepest secrets. He's like, I don't think I'll ever understand it, but dude, you're gonna make me a millionaire. I used to be like, ha ha. He's like, Are you gonna still love me when you're famous? And I thought, you're so silly. But him saying that, then this man confirmed me, like, I haven't cried in 17 years. I didn't know what just happened there. And um, you know, fast forward 10 years, he became like a regular at the studio and got super fit. And, you know, come to find out he'd been homeless in Hawaii for 15 years prior to that, and moved to Utah on a job, and just an amazing story. And who would have thunk, you know? I don't even know. I have no idea what I taught. I didn't even think it was emotional. I wasn't crying, you know, but for whatever reason, there's this space in there. I don't even know if it has so much to do with me, but but whatever's created in there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it does have to do with you. Yeah. It has a lot to do with the energy that you bring and and the way that you were able to hold that space. All healers have to meet their own depths, I think, before they can hold that container for other people. And I think that's what makes any type of person in any type of setting, whether you're a coach, whether you are a yoga instructor, whether you are a teacher, whether you are a mother, a father, it is your presence and it's your ability to have met yourself before you can meet other people. And there's no words that need to be said because people feel that, you know. So um, yeah, it's it's a beautiful space that you create. It's very healing and it's very human. Very human. Very human. Yeah. Which I think what the world is craving so much right now. You know, can I can I just be human here? Yeah. And you are so human.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's people feel free in your presence. And I think that's maybe what your husband was speaking to is like your authenticity and the freeness that you hold with inside of your body, just like makes people take a deep breath around you and be able to say, Man, I can be myself around her. That's probably the greatest gift that anybody could offer anybody else. Can I just be me around you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's that's what you provide.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you're right. He probably was saying that. He probably was saying that without having the vocabulary to say.
SPEAKER_05He didn't know the words, right? But that's what he was feeling. He was feeling that release, that those tears, that crying. Uh being seen. He needed to, he needed to move that, and you provided the space for him to do that.
SPEAKER_02So that so let me ask you this then. As a man, a man, hmm, this man didn't cry for 17 years. So why? And then why? Like I'm trying to figure out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I actually don't even really know why.
SPEAKER_05Well, that's a great question. Thanks for asking it, Keisha. What I have learned on my own personal journey and in working with other men is that a few things happen. One is at a very young age, we get disconnected from our emotions, from our heart and from our body. When we are shamed for feeling, for expressing, for showing our emotions. We get told things like, oh, stop acting like a little girl, or would you man up? Or how about you can come out of your room when you stop crying because big boys don't cry. So when you're ready to be a big boy, you can come out, you know, things like that. Like just shut down a man. Because what how he may grow physically. He does. He grows physically, he may grow a big beard, get big muscles, drive a big old truck, have a wife on his arm, maybe. But he's still a little boy. A little boy who is terrified of showing how he really feels. And so it's that disconnection from his heart, from his emotions, being under the the complete lie, the complete illusion that has been given him that in order for him to be acceptable, in order for him to like be a man, he can't show any signs of weakness. And crying, all that's like, in in in, you know, of course, not in truth, but in in this in this false world that we've created, crying is the epitome of weakness to a man who believes that way, who has been conditioned in that way, who has disconnected in that way, crying is like, no way, no way am I gonna cry. So, you know, and then who knows what what more specific personal things that man has gone through that have shut him off from his from his his feeling. But what's wild, Keisha, is in you telling that story is it's so sad to me now that I know that crying is one of the most beautiful, effective, and efficient means by which this human body has created to move energy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's actual hormones in your tears.
SPEAKER_05It's just moving energy. And the tears, the actual tears that roll down our cheeks and have the potential to, because of the creases in our face, actually end up in our mouth, our medicine. They have been studied and have been shown to be biochemically altered from the time they leave our eyes to the time they come down our face and maybe go into our mouth to possess healing power. So it's it's but not regardless of whether your tears are are healing in that literal way. Like the movement of the energy is so beautiful and so healing. And it's it's so it's it's wild to think what world have we created where we have stamped that inappropriate. Where we have made crying uh a sign of weakness.
SPEAKER_02So Brandon, I struggle with that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we we all do. Keysh, you know, think about it. If if if if you start feeling heavy or strong emotions to the point of feeling the tears coming, what do almost all humans do?
SPEAKER_02Sorry.
SPEAKER_05Yep. They say something like, I'm so sorry, and they bow their head and they cover.
SPEAKER_02Give me a minute to do the thing, hold this thing back. They apologize.
SPEAKER_05They apologize and they cover it up.
SPEAKER_02And I do it too.
SPEAKER_05I'm like, I'm so sad. I wish like Darcy can attest. And this is not to say, this is I'm just I'm just making the point. I'm not saying that like I'm not saying anything other than the point is when a man gets back online with his heart, with his with his body, and he begins, he, he, he, he I like to say remembers when he remembers how to feel, because he knew at one point before he got shut down. I cry almost every day.
SPEAKER_01Really? Going from I before your healing journey, I maybe saw you cry maybe like a total of four or five times. When our children were born, the day we got married, maybe at your cousin's funeral, your grandsparents' funeral, like that was it. Wow. So when he started crying, I was like, You're you're healing, you know. And I, Keisha, I'm the same way. I don't cry, like he cries way more than I do. Yeah, and I try not to judge myself in that because I feel deeply. I think my body just has a different way of moving through that. But I know after I cry, I feel like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better, you know. Maybe there might be some blockage in there that I still need to like create that flow with. I mean, I cried in your yoga class, so you released something in me in there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, crying is beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I remember, dude, we're talking about like emotions and crying and how it's healing. And I sit here feeling like so inadequate because I race is like, for someone who doesn't cry, you you do a really good job of making people cry for a wave.
SPEAKER_05Like so you don't cry much yourself.
SPEAKER_02I don't. And um, but not because I don't feel like it. Yeah. So maybe much like Starcy was saying, it's it's it I was punished for crying growing up in a big way, much like you described, like maybe a man like pull up your bootstraps. No, we we don't cry in this house, you know. Yeah, and then so that we don't cry in this house. And so I've always been programmed that that's bad. Like crying's bad. And so I'm still entangling that. But I remember being at a funeral. Um, one of our my son ran, my oldest son ran, had a cute little friend Nixon, Nixon Strong, if you guys have ever heard his story, passed away of cancer, and um, I think he was seven, and all of our boys played football together, the Watcots. Shout out to the Watcots, and um we're all at their funeral, and Race was heavily impacted by it. So was Ryder, but Ryder, my youngest Ryder was just a crier, so he's just crying, and you know, and faith too, just showing all the emotion. Me and Rand are just sitting there, like as stoic as like maybe like a as if nothing had ever happened. But I know that he's feeling all of it, and he probably knows that I'm feeling all of it, but there's no communication there, it's just this, you know? So I felt compelled to send him a text after and just said, like, hey, how do you feel, dude? And he said, My throat hurts so bad. I wanted to cry, I felt like I needed to cry, but I couldn't. And I said, You need to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the body never lies, right? The body will always show you where you're not free, where you're not fully expressed. Yeah. Where it's holding, holding something for you. Yeah. And sometimes just even like, I know sometimes in the clients that I work with, like just literally like putting a hand over the parts of their body where they feel tension, they feel tightness, they feel activation. Literally just like offering your body that presence, like gets it moving. And then all of a sudden, like tears start coming, or they take like a big sigh, or their shoulder sopping. And it's like just like being able to like meet your body in that energy, just literally by placing a hand over yourself. Wow. Presence, present presence creates movement, yeah, you know, and it's such a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_02And to like piggyback on that, we're so disconnected from our bodies, right? Yeah, because from a young age, we're we're taught to no, don't do that, don't feel that, don't be that. This is what you believe, and this is what you feel, yeah, and this is how you show up, and anything else is not okay. And so then all of a sudden you're like, actually, I don't know who I am, I don't know how I should feel, I don't know how I should act, I don't know what's okay. Yeah, and so then you're just kind of this like robot. You're shaking all the time. Like, I don't know if this is okay for me to robot, like you just said, right? Yeah, which I I think we're all in the meantime just trying to break out of. Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01Thank God happening slowly but surely.
SPEAKER_05It's hard. What would you how would you describe? I'm really really curious. I think both of us are, Darcy and I, uh, to ask you this. How would you describe or explain your if you can maybe even weave in your current beliefs and or views around spirituality with maybe what they used to be, if you want to talk about, you know, if there's been any evolution of that, of those beliefs of that, of of what you view spirituality to be, um, how the accident of may or may not have affected that, how yoga may or may not affect that. If you can just talk for a little bit about your your views of spirituality.
SPEAKER_02Dude, I would love to. Before that, would you like to from your perspective? It'd be cool for me to hear from your perspective what was the accident. Nobody on here knows. Maybe, maybe someone's hearing this for the first time. They don't know who the fuck I am.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Maybe tell them, and I would love to hear from your guys' perspective what happened.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, as far as I understand, it was July 24th.
SPEAKER_02July 20, yeah. July 25th.
SPEAKER_05July July 25th.
SPEAKER_022021.
SPEAKER_052021. Okay. Near uh Kinoche, like in between Kanoche and Fillmore, right?
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Utah, where there was uh where there's a lot of like in fact, I know I know exactly where it happened. Um there's a huge dairy farm, there's a huge farm where there's a lot of dirt, and a big windstorm came up and created a huge dust storm. And people who were driving south, I think it was just southbound, right? Not northbound, southbound on I-15 got caught in this this huge dust cloud where they just could not see. Like instantly. Instantly, this huge dust cloud forms and shows up, and there was a there was a pile up. That's that's what I understand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_02It's accurate. And on that day there was a 21 car pile up, and my family was the first car to hit the semi who And so my family were five of the eight who died, including my husband, Race, my son, Ryder, my sister-in-law, Courtney, my niece, Frankie, and my nephew Riggins. And uh bless the three others. I haven't been brave enough to um to go there yet, but I will. And I I see you and I love you. And um, I'm sorry. Um, so that day happened. So the keisha on the day before that and the keisha after that are much different. However, spirituality has always been interesting for me and religion. Um growing up, my family wasn't LDS. We well, they were, but they didn't go to church. We went camping on Sundays, and then eventually my oldest brother served a mission. And when he served a mission, my parents then went back to church. And um but I didn't. And I still partied and I still had fun and all the things. However, what I'm getting at with all this like background is that I never actually really had a super strong belief in a God, a man in the sky who dictated everything. Because my mm my faith in men was zero. I didn't, my dad's a drug addict, my biological father, and was in and out of drug and rehab my whole life. My stepdad was very unavailable, and um we had a really hard relationship. I say that with love because we're working on it, and I love him. And it was hard. And I think he could say it was hard. And he went through his own struggles and traumas that he never talked about, that I never even knew about till I was an adult. Um but I never believed in man. So like fast forward to now whenever like all the women are showing up saying, like, wait, men are this, and men are not to be trusted, and the patriarchy and this, that I'm like, yeah, I've always known that. Like that is that is gospel to me that I've always just known. And it's so welcome to the club where yeah, we don't trust men, you know? Yeah, so there's that.
SPEAKER_05So as far as spirituality being directed toward like a man god in the sky, keeping tabs on you, like making notes, no, yeah, but what about like did you ever have occasion as a young girl, as a teenager, as a young mother, anytime really in your in your younger, let's say the first half of your life, where you although maybe you couldn't by no means describe like who or what God is, did you ever have any experiences with what you would consider some type of divine?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I should have gone into this too, because I did get baptized. Um, my best friend's dad was the bishop at the time, and and I got baptized, and I went on like girls' camp, and I would always get in trouble at girls' camp because I'd roll up my sleeves and I and you show your shoulders. You were so rebellious. I show on those shoulders, Keisha. So rebellious, dude. But I don't, if you do it one more time, you're going in the tent for one hour.
SPEAKER_05And I was like, Good, I want to go to the tent.
SPEAKER_02And I did, I went in the tent for an hour and almost sweat to death. Anyway, and then I also like I went on like five pioneer tricks.
SPEAKER_01Bless your heart. We never did that before.
SPEAKER_02One as a youth, yeah. One as a family when when Ryder was a baby. Like, I've done it, dudes. And we got married in the temple. And at the time, that's how I thought that was the only way. That was the only way that I was gonna get away from having the life that I didn't want was to marry a priesthood holder. And um, luckily I met an amazing one, Ray Sawyer, and um, and his family's incredible. And I got really, really lucky and we got married in the temple. However, my testimony of the gospel was never, ever there, but my testimony of the spirit was always there, and that's what kept me going back because I tasted the spirit, and and the only way that I felt like or was taught that I could access that was through the church of Jesus Christ. And so I felt like God, I really like when I feel that I like testimony meetings whenever everyone's being vulnerable. I like the woman's pull and the pioneer truck. I like those moments like after we got out of the temple and were kissing, and everyone's there, and like I felt the spirit then and all these things that can happen anywhere, but I associated them with the gospel. Therefore, it was, oh, this is the gospel, and I am bad and I can't feel it all the time. I'm not gonna feel it all the time, and and I don't think that I can live up to that. So maybe I'll just settle for a life of not feeling the spirit. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it totally makes sense.
SPEAKER_02So then when I got into yoga and I felt the spirit, I was like, hmm, wait a second. This isn't a Mormon tree. And there's no Mormon.
SPEAKER_01I'm not in a temple. I'm not in a church and still feeling. So what would you call the spirit, like quote unquote, the spirit now? Like, what do you think that really is? What is the spirit? Like if people can feel that, can access that anywhere.
SPEAKER_05In a yoga class.
SPEAKER_01In a yoga class.
SPEAKER_05On a mountain.
SPEAKER_01Literally anywhere.
SPEAKER_02What is that? Well, well, what is that? What do you what what what would you define? I guess in my cute little Mormon mind, it's still the spirit, but it's but it's not associated with religion. Yeah. But it is something inside of you that's like into is it intuition? Is it um inspiration? Is you know, is it angels? I wonder. Uh uh, and then I'm like, after Race and Ryder and Court and Frank and Renstein, I'm like, wait, has that been angels all along? Like on the pioneer track? Like, is that some like our ancestors, angels? Was is that what it is? Is that what the spirit is?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What it what would you? I don't know. What would you I think well, I think you just spoke to so beautifully to like the difficult transition when people make when they leave religion. Because I think one of the greatest harms is religion, is that it takes ownership of the spirit of your soul and says, you need me to have this. It's almost like they take your soul from you and then they try to sell it back to you at a price. And I think that's there's so many there's so much beauty in religion. And I think that is one of the greatest harms that it does, especially in a religion that says, I'm the only way.
SPEAKER_03I'm the only way.
SPEAKER_01This is the only way. And so I know that was hard for me when we stepped away from a religion of like, well, like, what is the way? And like, what is this thing I've been feeling? Because I did feel spirituality in religion. But I gave, like you said, I gave that ownership to this. Must mean the church is true. If I was because they tell you that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If I'm feeling this good while I'm in church, that means it's true, you know? Yeah. Really, I was just feeling self-connection. I was feeling connected to something higher within myself.
SPEAKER_02Do you know? Yes, I do know. I remember I got pregnant with faith. Faith has a different biological father than race, although race is dad, and he always will be in forever and always. But I I had to go through church disciplinary court through that experience. I was literally 19. I'd never been to the temple. So I'm going through this court process, which, if you don't know, it's like me and I don't know, seven men. At least the bishop, state president, someone who's typing, a couple witnesses, all men, me. And they're asking me all my deepest, darkest secrets. And I'm confessing and they're typing it, and I'm sitting there like, and they're asking you really weird details. And okay, I feel so much rage right now for that.
SPEAKER_01I am so sorry you had to go through that. Like, isn't that the weirdest thing ever? Trauma that is created in those types of situations, trauma, especially for women being in this room with all these men you have no connection with. No, they don't even know you. And they're sitting here judging you and asking you all these questions. And you're thinking to yourself, like, my relationship with God is dependent upon these men. It it always felt so confusing.
SPEAKER_02Sitting there in that situation.
SPEAKER_05I'll validate you being on the other side. I I have been one of those leaders. Given the authority to make a judgment call on the eternal salvation and church membership and all the rightful blessings of being a member of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have been one of the men, one of the leaders in those rooms. Wow. And I knew, I knew the very first time, from the very first time through several times, every single time that I had to beat, had to do that, that it was off. It was not appropriate. It's off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It was not that it felt so inappropriate. But then when you're in it and you're so conditioned in it, it's like they're not off. I am off. Something is so deeply wrong with me that this should be normal. And it doesn't feel normal at all. You know, so then they do the thing. And then I remember them saying, like, we'll get back to you within a week when we talk to each other and we, you know, pray and decide like what you're standing in the church is. I remember going home and being like, I already feel forgiven for all of that. In my bot in my body, I already feel forgiven. I feel like whatever God is above or whatever has authority over, I feel like knows that my life's been kind of a shit show and that I made choices accordingly. I'm forgiven. And um, but now I have to wait a week to get this letter that's eventually gonna say you're disfellowshipped, you know. So sorry.
SPEAKER_01So confusing. Then I bet I could only imagine. I could only imagine. So how do you feel, Keisha, like whatever spiritual practice you had at the time or spiritual beliefs that you had at the time of your husband's your husband and your child's and your your family's passing? Um, do you feel like you had any spiritual tools that helped you through that? Or what how or did spirituality get completely redefined for you after that? Because I hear from a lot of people who experience death um in their families with a loved one, that that shifts a lot for them after somebody they love dies. And I'm curious what that was like for you.
SPEAKER_02It's fascinating, right? Like, why would it shift like that? Because you think if you're if you're devout, then it would shift like you're gonna go all in. Like now I'm now I'm gonna clean the temple every week and I'm gonna whatever. And it's never that. Like if you look if you're on the outside looking in, it's never that. It's usually the opposite. And for me, it was like, I'm so glad. For me, when the accident happened, I'd been out of the church for seven years-ish, all the way out. Tattoos, all my I had all these, like race designed my tattoos, which is a really cool thing that I have now. But so I was all the way out. I can't imagine what it would have felt like to be in the church experiencing that, like the turmoil that probably would have gone on in my body, the guilt, the shame, the fear, the and and any member listening to me is gonna be like, oh, she's so lost. And I get it, and I have so much compassion for it because I know I've been there where it's like, oh, we've got to save them. It's not like that. It's actually the comp I felt the complete opposite. I'm so glad I did the work on myself so that I can be here and I can breathe. Because breath was the only thing that was gonna save me. It didn't have anything to do with God. I didn't feel mad at God. Uh it wasn't like that. It was more of like a gosh, but I if I can just if I can just breathe one more breath and I can just stay one more, then I'm gonna stay one more time. Breathe another breath, and I'm gonna stay one more time. It felt kind of like like that for me. So breath was your spiritual tool at the time. Breath, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And having if you call it spirituality, but it was a tool that you utilized totally to help you. And maybe not the spirit.
SPEAKER_05What's interesting is I was just gonna say what does the spirit mean breath? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_05No, it's like, you know, I didn't know that. You think about like, yeah, it's often referenced that the breath is the spirit of life.
SPEAKER_02Mana, life force, pranayama. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So that's fascinating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it was it was interesting too to see the people in my life who um were are in the gospel, most of them, and and witnessing the way that they everyone agrees different, but but witnessing um the way that shame showed up was um interesting. And I'm so grateful that I didn't have the shame part. Yeah, that I just had the agony part. What was the shame part?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what would the shame I'm curious what that is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the shame part being like, oh, I I wish I would have driven. I wish I would have I could have, I could have survivor, what do they call it?
SPEAKER_05Survivor's guilt. Survivor's guilt. In any way could have saved. Or even did you feel like is there any sense of or any experience with yourself of like um just this following up with this question I have about like what is the shame that you would feel? Is is it related at all to like how you wish you would have been with them while they were here? Yes that seems like that would be hard.
SPEAKER_02Impossible. I feel so grateful. This is if if I did believe in a God, I I would get on my knees and just praise him all day, every day, and just like, thank you. That was in a place where we were so good. Me and race were so good, we're the best that we'd ever been in our whole marriage. There were hard times in our marriage. I don't pretend that it was perfect, it's really ugly and hard and rocky, and we hurt each other and lied to each other and betrayed each other and had to forgive each other over and over and over, right? Just like every relationship. Um, but we were so good. So good that in fact I kept saying, like, you can't die. Like, I can't do this with anyone else. And he'd be like, you're you know, you're silly. And with Ryder, I wrote him a letter right before he left. There was no doubt that they they knew that I loved them unconditionally. I can't imagine um what what the what the gospel principles or what the church might do to somebody's mind in that situation of like, did I teach them enough? Did I tell them enough? Did they know enough? You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Were they were they righteous enough? Were they righteous enough? Yeah, I think that's a big one of like were they living worthy to be able to enter God's presence, you know, fearing their afterlife situation?
SPEAKER_02Totally. I ran into someone on a trail once recently, just a random guy, and he was so friendly, and we ended up having a conversation about death for some reason. Just passerby. And I I happened to tell him, which I usually don't, that that I lost my husband and son, and he said, Well, were you married in the temple? And I said, Yeah, we were married in the temple. And he said, Well, thank goodness. And so now you have nothing to worry about. And I just I remember walking away from that conversation again, like, that would be so easy. If it was just that, like, thank goodness, and you're good now.
SPEAKER_01Quick pause before we continue. One of the biggest things I see is that people try to change their lives from the mind. But the nervous system is what actually determines what feels safe, possible, and sustainable. That's why I created my somatic repatterning audios. They're short, guided practices designed to help your body release old survival loops and create new patterns through sensation and embodied awareness. If you're ready to move from insight into real integration, you can access the audio library through the link in the show notes. All right, let's continue.
SPEAKER_05Do you ever get are you ever in situations, Keisha, where maybe a I guess it doesn't have to be a member of the Mormon faith, but someone who maybe is more religious may say something like in reference to your lost loved ones, that they are it's okay, they're they're in a better place. Yeah, I'll or it was their time, like just it was their time. God needed them for some reason more than you did, and they're in a better place. Does that happen to you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It happened a lot at first. A lot, a lot. It's okay. Like, I'm not worried for you guys, not worried for them. They're where they're supposed to be. I'm just worried for you guys and how you're gonna handle it. Um, it was their time, like all the classic things, which just felt like uh yeah, it was not helpful to you. Not any part helpful. It actually just feels like a hole in your stomach that you you can. It's like you want to crawl out of your skin but can't, and want to throw it at them. Like I just want to crawl out of my skin so that you can see my soul, but I want to throw my skin at you so that you can just feel how much that hurt great there. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's like what God would need my family more than me. Yeah, an all-powerful, all-knowing being that would actually need my people more than me myself. 100%.
SPEAKER_02You know, and my son, yeah, he's my best friend. We need each other. Like, we can't how do you assume that him living anywhere other than with me is gonna be better? I don't know. It's hard, and then I also know that people come from love, they're try they're trying their best. I remember trying to like console people when when they lost people, probably said stupid shit. Oh, we're in a better place. Uh, I would cringe at that.
SPEAKER_05Everybody's, I think, trying their best. They are that's the the wild thing is we can talk about all these discrepancies in beliefs and and and like how we view the world, and you know, that's so different one person to another. At the end of the day, I think everybody is given where they are at in their life, their level of consciousness, the depths at which they have met themselves, they're doing their best.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's where a lot of compassion and love comes in. But it's also where like you can take that awareness and you can do something with it. When you're when you're being offered this type of like, if you're listening and you're like, oh my gosh, I've actually said that to people before. Okay, what can I do with that? That's where like consciousness comes into play and awareness. Because I remember my one of my dear friends lost her sister to cancer. She had three beautiful children, she was young, and she had so many people. And I think this came out to me after the funeral. And I probably was even the one of them that said to her is like the probably the same thing. Oh, like they're taking care of, like, I'm sure they're in a better place, like all the things, because that's what I knew, that's what I was taught happened to people, you know, and I that's what I was taught and shown to say to people when they die. And anyways, we both went through a faith of through a faith discretion journey together. But she was telling me after that that was like a huge catapult for her actually wanting to step away from religion. Wow, death in her family like that, because of that, of like that, that does this no longer make sense to me. And I don't feel good about this anymore, having lived it actually. But I was able to see that of like, yeah, that actually is not helpful to say to somebody when they die, you know.
SPEAKER_05I think it's I would just guess that it would be partly because the beliefs of the person saying it are so fixed and strong, like they can't see that there could be any other way that you know, that this gospel is true and that it's God's way and it's the way that like the family can be together and all the things. If they just cannot see they cannot imagine there being any other way, it seems it seems like it makes sense that they would be like, Oh, it's they're in a better place.
SPEAKER_02And you and you can appreciate the love that they come from.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, for sure. But if you but if that person saying that could just for a second like they could honor your belief, that's great. Honor your belief and can you just consider that there could be something. I know that's so hard for someone in a in a high demand religion where it's like you know, so black and white, so like this is the way, this is the only way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And they think they're offering hope. And that's where we meet them with compassion again. But you're right. But Keisha, I'm curious, like obviously you've had you've I can imagine the depth of grief that you held. And I'm curious how you have held that and moved through that, probably how you're still moving through that. Does grief ever even fully go away? I don't think so. Especially after something you've experienced. But I'm curious what you have to say about that.
SPEAKER_02Dude Grief doesn't go away and it for sure intensifies, but kind of like waves. They come in and they go and they come in and they go. Um and I haven't figured out how to. Oh, I'm just gonna say this because I trust you guys, and we can just be real here. I I feel like it took me four years. We're coming up on five. In July, I think it took me four years to just accept that race was gone. Just that I'm not gonna apologize for my emotions. I just didn't say thank you for holding me here. Um, but I think it took me that long to just accept that like he wasn't coming back. And um so now in my body, I'm like, oh, I guess Ryder's not coming back either. So I think the way that people might assume you grieve is that like you just grieve it all at once. You just grieve it all up front, time goes by and you're better. And I I think that's maybe the hardest um misconception is that time goes by and you're worse. Um because now I sit now. I sit at home like trying to talk to Race and being like, you're not letting Ryder come. You're not gonna let Ryder come back, you know. And I don't sit in poor me. I only say that because I think that on the rare occasion that you lose a lot of people at once. There's like a like a guilty part of you that's like, oh, I didn't get to like I didn't get to grieve rider yet. I've been grieving race. Or I didn't get to grieve court, or you know, Frankie or Regan's, I've been grieving race. And um I remember hearing from someone saying he had a spouse who who um took her own life, and he was saying it took me 10 years to feel normal. I'm thinking, how long until I'm gonna feel normal? And what is normal? You know, and and normal's not really things. So your question is like like what does grief look like? And does it ever go away? Hell no. It never goes away. But I think that's why it's here. I think it's it doesn't go away because we all have to experience it. And it's it's the one way if we're willing to be like Mason is a beautiful example of like someone who's willing to be vulnerable in his grief. And so everyone feels connected to him because he's honest and he's ugly about it. He's not ugly, he's like so handsome, but he's he's beautiful and and raw and and and honest in his grief, and and and so everyone feels connected to him, they want more of him and they want to hear from him, and um most people just shove it down because what what we're taught is it's embarrassing if you if you hold on to that and you can't move on. Get it get a fucking hold of yourself and move on because life keeps moving.
SPEAKER_01So and I think that's just starting.
SPEAKER_02Oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say that's I think that's like spiritual bypassing, and I think that's bypassing your humanity. And Keisha, I think the thing that you spoke to was like, I just want to feel quote unquote normal. Like, there's such a myth of normal in our culture of what is normal. People walking around as robots, no feeling, no emotion, bypassing everything they're feeling, just I'm okay, everything's fine. That's that's what's not normal. Yeah. What's normal, Keisha, is feeling. What's normal is never letting grief leave your body because you're a human and feeling that and expressing that and being with it. Wow. Like that is what's human. That is what is normal. And we've become so judgmental of ourselves and our emotions and our humanity because because of that, we can't even be human around each other anymore because it's like all these conditioned beliefs, all these conditioned beliefs of oh, they're crying, there's something wrong with them. Like, oh, they can't move on. Yeah, exactly. How embarrassing for them. Exactly. And it's why should you have to move on from it? I I don't think you should have to. Why would you want to move on from the most one of the most beautiful things about your life? And probably the space where you're trying to move on is probably where all the harm is done. You're trying to escape something that you should never have to escape. Totally, you know, totally. So I I thank you so much for speaking to that and naming that because I think that's so important for people to hear, whether they've lost somebody or not. What really defines what is quote unquote normal in our world? What is normal, you know? And I I think numbness is normal, disconnection, normal, like not being human, not being real, not being messy. It's like you said, people are so drawn to Mason because he's messy and he's real and he's human and he is alive. That's what's like so connected, like what you said.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I think the biggest thing being honest, I think like we we we talk about this a lot, is that like people in a religious situation, they won't be honest, but they'll go to Mexico and get fucking high and drunk. But they'll hide it forever, but it's okay because it was in Mexico. But if you're honest about it, yeah, sometimes Sundays I have a drink. Or if I'm at a ball game, then they're like, so you're an alcoholic then, you know, or whatever it is. Honesty. I think honesty is is the winner. And honesty, I think, is what's kept me, um, me and my kids so close. Is I'm like, here's the gift that the accident gave me. Um, if there's any gift, is that there was no more like, I'm not gonna try to pretend to be any mother that I'm not, I'm not gonna try to pretend to hold you to any s any standard that you cannot. I'm just gonna let you grieve and be and do whatever you need to as long as you'll let me to. And so that then we both became human.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm the parent and you're the child, that we're actually we're best friends, and we're just gonna be human. And if you'll hold me, I'm gonna hold you. And so I think that one of the biggest gifts is that my kids and I were honest with each other, maybe even uncomfortably so, right? But it feels like when I from an outsider perspective, looking at people parenting their kids, I'm like, no, no, no. Not that I have it all figured out, I'm still learning and growing, but like, what if you just were honest with them?
SPEAKER_05What has that done for your relationship with Rand and Faith?
SPEAKER_02Literally changed everything. As soon as soon as I decided, like, I'm just gonna tell them the truth.
SPEAKER_05You don't have to always have a held together. You just like you're like real with them.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05There is an they're real with you.
SPEAKER_02I promise it's reciprocal. If you feel like it's not going to be, I promise you'll be surprised if you're willing to just be. There was a situation where this is an embarrassing part of my journey that I don't talk about a lot, but there was a situation where I um got real dark and real, I just hated myself and I didn't want to be alive. And sorry, was this pre- It was after the accident? And um, it was probably eight months, ten months after, and I had a hard time getting out of bed. And anyway, I had taken some ambient to try to sleep, and there was like a plant on my nightstand, and I don't actually remember a lot of it, but I just remember waking up to blood all over. But I had just taken that pot and just just ran my my face with it, and also there was a razor blade um in my drawer, and I just cut my face all up, which in my right mind I'd never do that to my face, like anywhere else. I'm not even I've never been a self-warmer, but in whatever version of myself that I was in that moment, I just didn't want to be in my body, and I thought that I could beat my way out of it. And um I remember waking up with blood and calling a friend, and then the friend calling race's family who came over to to be there with me. And I remember being having the moment where I'm like, I'm gonna have to go out and see my kids. I'm gonna have to go look at them. And like, initially, like, what lie could I tell them? You know, like what fight did I get in? And I was bad, you should see the other person. Or like so I walked out and Ace and Ryan are in the living room. And um, like, oh what happened? And I said I did this. And Ryan goes, why? And he's probably you know, 15 at a time. Why would you do that? Just mad. I'm like, I don't know, buddy, I'm sorry. And I'm really sad and this is embarrassing, you know. Um, but in my ability to to be full disclosure, I think it opened up this avenue for them to be like, she's human and look at her be messy and be honest. And um, yeah, I feel like our our relationship grew that day, even though that was really hard and embarrassing. And there were a lot of times where I regretted, like, I should have just said something else. I should have just lied, and Ran's pissed at me. You know, he's gonna hate me forever, you know. But instead, I think me and Ran we're building a beautiful relationship on trust and honesty and transparency.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_05As we talked earlier, you shouldn't you shouldn't want to or need to move on from one of the most beautiful parts of your life that you lost. But Keisha, I'm curious, how do you both honor them, the time you had with them, their memory, their legacy, their spirit, and continue to live your life. How do you do that?
SPEAKER_02That's so hard, right? I remember talking to a guy and it was two years after, and I wasn't super into him, but we're texting and he's kind of fun. He's like tiptoes out of the church. I'm like, it's just interesting to see people's journey. And I said something like, he asked me to go on a date, and I said something like, Well, I don't know, I'm still like whatever. And he said, Oh, I just figured it's been two years, so you're over it by now. Right? And so um, I remember at that point being like, Oh yeah, here's the perspective, here's reality, and and how am I gonna keep living and also living, you know? Race's um theme or mantra that he lived by was live wild. Um live with integrity, love, determination. So it's not like actually live wild, like live and go drink and go be merry and be happy. Never he actually race, never drank at all ever in his whole life, or did any drugs.
SPEAKER_05So live wild. Say it again. The live with integrity, integrity, love, love, and determination. That's awesome. I like that. Pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but how do I keep living? I some of my non-negotiables, some of the things that I live by are like I won't ever sacrifice um. I think in a in a uh former version of myself, it was a lot of like, I'm gonna do that because that's gonna make that person happy. I'm gonna do that because that's the right thing to do. In my now body, I'm like looking for ways to make other people happy because it makes me feel good, but also never sacrificing the ultimate goal, which is to like have peace and have a good relationship with my kids, which it wasn't always that. If that makes sense, it usually would be like, how do I people please and look the part rather than I just want to, I want to be that part. I want to be it. I want to, I want to be peace, I want to bring peace. I want my you know, I want my kids to be proud of me. I want they I don't I want to have safety where they feel like they can trust me, but it's not about any image and and everything that it used to be too and be was image. Look at me, I'm the strongest, I'm the fastest, I'll kick your ass. And that's all there is to it, you know?
SPEAKER_05You're not alone in that. That's how most of us end up living our lives. Managing the perceptions of others, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um Keisha, would you um would you do you have anything you want to follow up with that question?
SPEAKER_01No, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05Um do you have any do you have any intention of being entering back into like committed, devoted, serious relationship, or maybe speak for just a little bit as we wrap up about any perceptions, beliefs, views you have about modern men. I'm personally selfishly very curious to know because of the work that I do with men, how you view men, how you view men, how you viewed men, what maybe if you want to talk about like you already kind of did. In the beginning, you talked about how you you really did not trust men, so you didn't therefore believe in in uh a man god.
SPEAKER_01And rightfully so. Rightfully so. For sure.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but I'm just curious to know how you view men now, the modern men, like men in today's world, where do you see men at? Or what's your experience with them?
SPEAKER_02It's a cool question. I thought about this the most while I'm like preparing. I'm like, I'm like putting on a bandana because I'm like, I want to be as cool as Darcy, first of all. Oh my gosh, I'm serious though.
SPEAKER_05And then I'm like, You guys in Axl Rose, there's never been anybody to rock the bandana bed.
SPEAKER_02And I think how do I speak as eloquently as they do? How do I speak to the modern man? And then I I quickly shut that off to like okay. This is what my therapist always says. Shout out to Matt Quackenbush. He's always like, hey, shut the brain off. Come back here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05He's good. He knows what he's doing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Somebody hold my heart, I hold your heart. And like, now what do you want to say? I soften my shoulders. And to that, I say this. I was so fortunate to be married to an amazing human like race. These aren't just words. If anyone knows the Sawyers, they know that race was one of a kind. And um, like I said, it didn't come without its challenges. But the more that I've dated or experienced other men in today's modern world, I realized, man, he's one of a kind. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02The the loyalty. He's raised by a therapist. Mason and Reese's dad is a therapist, family therapist. And so they have this really cool quality that they see all angles of every situation. They're they're never biased. Um they're very unselfish, very like calm. Like we used to always joke, if if Faith came home pregnant, I would freak out. But if we couldn't find the remote race, I'd freak out. Like just silly things like that. Like, but just so cool, calm, and collected. Just an amazing man. And I've experienced probably all a bit since I guess it's gonna be five years in July. Um, when I first started getting out there, it was just me drinking and numbing and and and and being taken advantage of. And to those men, I'm like embarrassed for you. I'm embarrassed for you, you know who I am, you know who I was. I'm sad for you, embarrassed. I have compassion for for them. Um and then I and then now I find myself in situations where I have to be really careful of not trying to be a savior. Um because I have a really deep love. I had a really amazing, intense, deep love with race that never really ended. It it just can I think it will continue to go on forever. Um not that I compare everyone to him, but that's what I knew for two decades. And so I I'm learning about men, and what I know about men now is that dude, Brandon, 90% of men, not kidding, are dishonest. They're dishonest in relationships, they're dishonest with themselves, with with ever with their children, with everything. And I feel alien in it. I I f I feel like everyone's numb. Um, men. I feel like men are numb. I feel like men don't care to show up for women. I feel like there's too many options. Um, they don't care about commitment or relationship. And so it just feels very icky. And so because I've experienced a lot of icky, I find myself in this situation where I am in a relationship in the moment, and I have to fight a lot of my own stuff. A lot of like, is that real or is that your trust issues? And it's so I don't know. The answer to that question has so many layers. I think we could talk for days, but the modern man scares me.
SPEAKER_05Safe to say, at least, Keisha, the the the modern man has some work to do.
SPEAKER_02So much work to do, dude.
SPEAKER_05So good. Like I in coming into this conversation, I I wanted so badly to know because of, like I said, the work that I do, um what your perspective has been on that. Thank you for sharing that. And I would I I just want to add that like um I don't want to pile on top of these men that are I don't want to pile on top of them shame. Like we watched we watched a movie recently that I had seen before, but Darcy had not, that is so good, and maybe you've seen it.
SPEAKER_02What is it?
SPEAKER_05Scent of a woman.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I haven't seen it yet.
SPEAKER_05You gotta watch it, kid. Hey, tonight. I won't give a lot of it away, but basically a man is battling, he's blind, he's battling alcoholism. He was in the in the military, and so he's got a lot of PTSD, and just he's he's lonely, he has nobody.
SPEAKER_01Did you say that he was blind? Sorry. Okay, blind.
SPEAKER_05And he's he's basically he's in a moment of wanting to take his own life, and he has this one friend who shows up and the blind man yells at him as his friend is trying to like save his life. I'm bad. I'm bad. And his friend said, You're not bad. You're just in pain. And so I just want to offer that as to the to the men that are listening that like we have a lot of work to do, men. But it's not with shame that we say that. We say that with love, we say that with seeing your your power, your gifts, your potential, but what you can offer this world, what you can offer women and children and yourself. And you're not bad. You're just you're in pain. And you a lot of you don't know it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05A lot of you don't even know it. You're just running on autopilot, like you said, Keisha, numbing, distracting. Being disconnected, running after the dollar, or the next fling, the next woman, the next toy, whatever. And we just, you're not bad. You're just you're just in a lot of pain.
SPEAKER_02That's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah. Um is how do you get that man who's in pain, who's numbing, who doesn't realize that it's pain anymore? Like how do you get them to like what would be your advice to like jolt them?
SPEAKER_05I wish if I could create a way to jolt them, Keisha. You can't.
SPEAKER_04We can't.
SPEAKER_05There is no way that I'm aware of. Please correct me if I'm wrong if anyone knows differently. Where you can force another human being to heal.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_05Do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, I think unfortunately people have to like hit literal rock bottom, and hopefully that rock bottom doesn't mean death. But I think for a lot of men it takes that to losing everything.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01Before they realize, okay, like I I have some work to do here. And I think like that pain that you spoke to in men, I want to make sure that we say that like that pain is no excuse for bad behavior.
SPEAKER_04No, it's definitely not an excuse.
SPEAKER_01And I know that's not what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But pain is no excuse for the way that men have treated you for the way it sounded like you grew up with uh a non-present dad. Like it's not.
SPEAKER_05No, I just I just wanted to make sure we didn't sh heap and pile shame on top of another idiot. No, that's where I was going.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's not an excuse, but it is an explanation. And I think that's where the like out of everything that's going on right now in the world and everything that's being exposed at the hands of masculine pain, is that the feminine are going to have to come to us this place within themselves of massive forgiveness. And it's like, who do you forgive? Because where where does it go? It keeps on going. Like, well, I hurt you because my dad hurt me and his dad hurt him, and my, you know, like where where do you where do you filter that anger and that we have no choice but to be in your heart space and to recognize the wounds of everybody. Everybody projects their wounds, even women many times too, you know, onto men and onto other people. But it just requires, I think it's the only way to heal this dynamic and this thing that's going on right now is is like, and I think that's one of the most beautiful things that actually like an embodied feminine, like healthy feminine has to offer right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that containment within herself that she can be so contained that she can offer that in this world that we need need right now. And I'm not meaning forgive your abuser. I'm not meaning, I'm not telling anybody to do what with that. Um, but it's like I was telling my daughter the other day, I was like, forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for yourself, it's to free yourself, you know? And if you can look at it in that way of like, I'm not excusing what you did to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, I experienced sexual abuse at the hands of a man.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And I I it's the forgiveness was like from for my own for myself. So um, yeah, I think that's what's gonna be required in the world right now, and and for all these dynamics deal with each other, you know, me too. Creating that instead of separation, like our anger is not going to help. Totally. I mean, feel it, feel the rage. We just talked about this in our last episode, but be contained with it and not continue to spread hate and spread all men are bad and all men are evil, and we're like our world is hopeless because men aren't gonna be capable of healing. And yeah, good job. Now now what? Yeah, like you believe that, right? You believe that that's the only thing you will see. Instead of believing like there's hope, and what evidence do I have of men who actually do the work and heal and are being leaders of like healthy masculinity in the world? You know, we need to like our put all that anger and that rage and that attention toward that, toward how do we heal our boys, you know?
SPEAKER_02Well, let me tell you that because I have a boy who um I love him so much, and he is the epitome of um a really wounded boy who won't ever talk about it, and and bless his heart. There's been like maybe two or three moments where he's talked about it in five years, but his his escape is working out and it's football and it's all those things. And here's what I want to say to women who are trying to jolt the men is just freaking love them hard. It doesn't mean you have to be, it doesn't mean you have to be codependent on them, doesn't mean you have to be walked all over or or disrespected, but you can still love them. And the more that you love, the more that you're gonna see them wanting to to emulate love. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And like what you said, like men are gonna you can't heal in shame. You can't, you can't, and so that I like I'm so thankful that you voiced that that this isn't to to perpetuate more shame in men, that they they already hold so much in their bodies already. We're not trying to like make that more, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Also, Brandon and Darcy, if I could just speak to you guys really quick, I I don't know you guys very well. This is like one of the first times I've been able to sit with you and get to know you, but like I've seen sort of your evolution through yoga through the and through Instagram, like the little glimpses that I get, but but what I see is so freaking potent that I just have to speak to it really quick because if you just imagine being in this yoga studio in this space, and this beautiful woman's just lying there in child's pose, and her amazing man is just caring to her. No one else is present in the room. It feels like it's just the two of them, and they have this connection that there's almost like a being that's just around them, and it's so felt and palpable. And for me, it was like I hope every man in this room is witnessing this moment that these people have worked hard to have, and I hope they feel it. And and no doubt it was just felt it was felt by me, and I and no doubt it was felt by everyone else. And so the work that you guys are doing is whether it's spoken or not, it's so unbelievably felt, and thank you for bringing that to my space. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for saying that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_05I just want to, if I can, piggyback on just real quick. Um, your question, Keisha, as to what can you do to jolt someone into like a healing journey?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05I do I stand by what I said. Like you can't force anyone to heal, but I will say if if you're if if if I may direct your question back to the women, meaning you're asking me, let's say, what a woman can do to perhaps help her husband heal or her man heal is I believe, and you please you went you guys are women, you speak to this better than I, but I it just seems to me like if there is anything that you can do, it is love yourself enough. You the to the women, love yourself enough to walk away if needed. You love yourself so much that you will not tolerate certain things.
SPEAKER_01We had to have that conversation, really. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'd love to, I would love to know more if we yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, we were at a really rocky rocky road in our relationship. Like, yeah, you speak to like what we've been able to create now, like we we went through hell to get there. I can feel that, you know? Um, and there were definitely times where like I we I don't know if we're gonna make be able to make this work, like we're just not like we're not being able to like meet and see each other the way that we need to see each other to be able to move through this. But I will say, like, one thing that I have always had within myself is, and I don't know how this came about. I've all and I'm so grateful I have it, because I realized a lot of people don't have that, is that I've always really loved myself, and it's not coming from a place of like arrogance or like, oh I think I'm better than anybody else.
SPEAKER_05You have not one ounce of arrogance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I hope not. Genuinely, but like I've always and I'm sure it comes from like my beautiful parents raising you at that. I don't know where that was really sourced from, but I have always like loved myself, and I had that conversation with you, was like, and it was so hard for you to hear, I remember, because you were taking that as I don't want you, and I don't love you. But in that moment, I was like, no, like I I love me so much that I demand better, and I won't tolerate that. And I think in that moment he was like, Yeah, you're right. Wow.
SPEAKER_05And also like it really hit me hard, but it wasn't, yeah, I yeah, you have to make you have to do the work that's the jolt for yourself, though. But that you there can be jolts, there can be stimulations and you know, catalysts for a man to do the work, and one of them is for the woman to be so like because she is doing her own work on herself, she has come to a place, she has met herself, all of herself at her depths, and accepted she loves herself so much. And you like you said, it's not it's not arrogance, it's a deep, genuine love that she will not tolerate this bullshit that these man boys are or or some of them putting them through. You know, these grown-ass men acting like little boys in relationships, and you women out there, you just have to be able to love yourself enough to walk away if you need to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I needed to hear that. And that's so much harder. Yeah, it's hard. But but really hard. Easier said than done. Easier said than done, but beautiful, and I needed to hear that, and I know that the world freaking needed to hear that. I have several of my best girlfriends going through the same situation where it's like, gosh, when when is it you surrender? Or you keep I'm a fighter, you just keep fighting, you keep when or when you just feel abandoning yourself, though.
SPEAKER_01Then you abandon yourself. Yeah, but a woman can only fully surrender when she feels safe. Right. Like men want so bad for women to surrender, like they want all of us. They want our aliveness. Like the the most beautiful thing about the feminine is her ability to be so self-expressed and so alive in her body through the way that she dances, through her art, through her expression, through the way that she creates beauty in her home. Like men want that so bad. Makes love. Yes. Like men want, like, I want like you always say this, a lady. What do you say?
SPEAKER_05Every man wants a lady in the streets, but a freak in the sheets.
SPEAKER_01So in order for that to happen, though, men don't realize she has to feel safe with you. A hundred percent. Like whether she's conscious of it or not, she is always asking that question. And her say she, you don't have to say a word. It's how she feels around you that will open up that expression in her.
SPEAKER_02So then, men, your number one goal is to make sure your woman feels safe with you. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yes, that's the number one. Number one.
SPEAKER_02That's your number one.
SPEAKER_05And yeah, men, if you don't know what that even means, give me a call.
SPEAKER_04Every man in my life.
SPEAKER_05Because a woman cannot feel safe with a grown-ass man who's actually stuck in perpetual boyhood emotionally. Like she just can't. And so if you don't know what is going on in your dynamic, but you know something is off, hit me up on Instagram and I'll I'll help you out.
SPEAKER_01Please, I sponsor that. I think before we close, Keisha, we have just a couple things like we want to leave our end our episodes with our guests of asking how we can see you. Yeah, cool. And then also if you that would be probably the last thing, but the first question I would ask before we end is what if any what you can offer somebody who has gone through a similar experience to you, which there's lots of people out there who have experienced death or a loss the way that you have. Like, what can you offer them in this space to be able to help maybe be able to help them or help them feel seen by you? And then how can we, Brian and I see you right now?
SPEAKER_02What can I offer anyone who might be going through the unimaginable? Would probably be, first of all, come to my yoga class. Um, you don't have to do any yoga, but I'll hold, I'll hold you so tight. Not physically, but emotionally, I'll just hold you. But on the real, um, I would probably say, let people help you. Be humble. I know everything in you wants to say, like, no, I'm good. No, I don't, I don't know what I need. Just say, please help me in any way that you that you can. I surrender to whatever you feel like I need. I don't know what I need because I need everything. I surrender to that. I trust you, but please help me. Like, be willing to say just please help me. That's what I would say. And and how you guys can see me is um I I feel like you do a really good job of that already, first of all. Um see me in that my intentions are always pure. My love is so freaking full for you and the work you do, and I stand by every every bit of it. Um, how you can see me is um just to keep loving me. Love me through all of the ugly ups and downs and ins and outs of what I'm trying to create and and move through.
SPEAKER_04Alright.
SPEAKER_02And then thank you, Fisha.
SPEAKER_00Love you so much. Feed it be, bee, me, bec, be a tink, sweep, be it, be like.