Gladys Knight: The Empress of the Pivot 🚂👑

S2 E6 | Gladys Knight: The Empress of the Pivot 🚂👑

What happens when a child prodigy outgrows the biggest music machine in history? 🏗️ This week, Max & Mello deconstruct the incredible architecture of Gladys Knight & The Pips.

We’re going back to the bedrock: from her 1952 win on Ted Mack’s Amateur Hour to the living room mechanical failure that birthed The Pips. 🎂 We break down the "Grapevine Wars"—how Gladys built the hit blueprint that even Marvin Gaye had to follow—and the "Heart of a Lion" philosophy that made James Brown and Diana Ross kick them off their tours out of pure fear. 🥊

In this episode, we explore:

 * 💎 Architectural Resentment: The heartbreaking story of the life-sized trophy and the "adult" haters.

 * 🍇 The Motown Middle Child: How a "hand-me-down" song became a global masterpiece.

 * 🚂 The Midnight Reconstruction: Why Cissy Houston (Whitney’s mom) changed the plane to a train.

 * ⚖️ The $100 Million Legal War: How Gladys fought Motown for the right to her own name.

 * 🍗 Empire Building: Turning a soul brand into a chicken-and-waffles destination.

Soul trailblazers fought for sound, vision, and legacy. Max & Mello's Architects of Soul dives deep. 🛡️🔥

join us on our YouTube page and Let’s get this funk train moving! 🚂💨

Max & Mello's Architects of Soul' isn't just a podcast – it's an experience. Join the conversation. Learn something new. Feel the music like never before."so come along for the ride ✨

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hey, welcome back to Max and Mellow's Architecture Soul. I'm Max Soul, and we are laying the cornerstone for season two, episode six.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I'm Mellow Soul. Today we're honoring the Empress.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Indeed, she was an Empress.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Gladys Knight. Most people know the voice, but they don't know the blueprint. You can't understand the skyscraper if you don't look at the bedrock.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

So before American Idol, or The Voice, Mellow, there was Ted Mac's original amateur hour. It's going back a long way. And in 1952, a seven-year-old little girl named Gladys Knight traveled from Atlanta, Georgia to New York City to compete. And she sang Too Young, which was a Nat King Cole standard.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yes, Max, it was a blueprint moment. Gladys didn't just sing, but she performed with a technical precision that shocked the audience. She won that grand prize, which is a$2,000 scholarship of fortune at that time, and a gold trophy.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

She actually won the entire contest. The entire season. The entire season. She was badass. And of course, Mel, there are those small, tiny people that have to ruin something for someone else. So there is this heartbreaking detail Gladys often recalls. So when it came time to present the trophy, the other quote, unquote, adult contestants, they were so resentful of being beaten by a child, they actually refused to help her hold the massive life size award. And Ted Mac himself had to physically step in, physically supporting the trophy, so the little girl from Georgia wouldn't drop. Can you believe that?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Actually, I can. And this was her first lesson in architectural resentment, Max.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah, not her last.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

You know? Gladys learned early that when your building is taller than everyone else's, people will try to let you fall. Her parents saw this and decided right then that she needed a support structure that would never let her down.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Indeed, Mello, and that's family. And family is everything. And this is where we have what we like to call the birthday party breakthrough. So it's September 1952. This is a few months after the win. And the family gathered in Atlanta for her brother Bubba's tenth birthday party. And this is where the new vibe was officially drafted. And I always say everything happens for a reason. There was a mechanical failure.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Exactly, Max. The family had a record player providing the music for the party, but in a stroke of architectural faith.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Everything happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Uh-huh. The machine broke down and the party went silent.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

That's right, Mello. To keep the guests entertained, Gladys's mother, Elizabeth Knight, a brilliant woman. Absolutely brilliant. Great foresight. She told the kids to get up and sing. So Gladys, Bubba, their sister Brenda, and cousins William and Eleanor Guest stood in the living room and started harmonizing. Man, Elizabeth Knight, she didn't just see kids having fun. She was an architect. She saw a professional ensemble. And she was the general contractor of the group. She sat them down and said, Hey, you guys sound better than the records. You're becoming a group.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Well, I guess that's settled. I guess that was.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I think that's the most important thing. Those parents decided that that kid was not going to be alone.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Mm-hmm. And they looked to their cousin James Pip Woods as he was the only one who truly encouraged them to turn professional and eventually became their first manager. So they took his nickname, Pip, as a van as a badge of honor. It was short, punchy, and modern.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yep, it was the right name at the right time. And it turned them from Gladys and her family into the Pips. It created a brand that was separate from yet completely supportive of the lead. Man, her parents were the real project managers. They were brilliant. They didn't want to see their daughter grow up to be a lonely child star. So they used that win to form the pips at that family birthday party. And that's the first lesson here today. Build with family. Gladys wasn't just a singer, she was the CEO of a family startup. By the time they hit that Chitlin circuit, man, they were so tight they could finish each other's sentences musically.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

But even the perfect foundation gets tested when you walk into a factory.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Oh, and we know what factory that was.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah, we're gonna talk about the grapevine wars and Motown's middle child right after this.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Right, middle child, that's right. You're listening to Max Mello's Architects of Soul. We're gonna take a short break and we will be right back.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Don't go to it. Before we dive into the Motown years, if you like this content or if you're picking up what we've put down, like if you're eating what we're feeding you, please give a like and subscribe to our channel. There's also a video version available on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

That's right. If you like watching instead of just listening, well, you can. Alright, so Melo, it's 1966, and Gladys signs to Motown. But Barry Gordy, of course, is busy building the Supreme's wing of the building, go figure. Gladys and the Pips are the middle children, which we totally understand. So here is where we want to show a perfect example of how a producer's vision can transform a song's DNA entirely. So in 1966, Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong wrote a song called Heard Through the Grapevine. The song was inspired by a phrase that Barrett Strong heard while living in Chicago. And the Grapevine was a reference to the informal communication network used by enslaved people during the Civil War.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yes, Max, and Marvin Gay actually recorded his version months before Gladys Knight and the Pips ever touched it. But there was a major conflict. Whitfield pushed Marvin to sing in a higher, strained register, similar to how he pushed David Ruffin on Ain't Too Proud to Big.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Which actually worked. Just to convey desperation. That's true, Mello. But when Winfield brought Marvin's version to Motown's quality control meeting, well, of course, label had Barry Gordy famously rejected, like we've never heard that before. Of course, Gordy felt the track was too dark, too slow, and lacked hit potential. Not like we haven't heard that one before either. Exactly. Gordy hated it when Smokey did it. He sat it on a shelf when Marvin did it. Norman was frustrated but determined to make the song a hit. So Whitfield went back to the drawing board. He decided, man, I'm gonna outfunk Aretha Franklin's respect, which was dominating the charts at the time, and it was exactly what Barry wanted to do. Outfunk Aretha. So it just so happened, Mello, that, well, they had the middle children. They said, hey, let's see what they can do. That moment arrived, and he calls in Gladys. Well, she didn't even want to do the song. But she took that blueprint, added a gospel stomp, and it became the best-selling Motown single ever at the time. She proved she could take a hand-me-down and make it a masterpiece. The song became a high-energy, gospel-infused shouter. This version was much more uptempo and aligned with the Motown sound, and Barry Gordy loved it. It was released in September of 67 and became a massive number one RB hit.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

And even though Gladys Knight's version was a smash, Max Norman Whitfield never gave up on Marvin's moody atmospheric recording.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

And it's a good thing he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Right, because in 1968, Motown needed one more track to fill out Marvin's album in the Groove, and Norman sneaky Whitfield managed to get his rejected version of Grapevine onto the B side of the album.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

What a badass. And he surely did that. And once that album hit, radio DJs, starting with W V O N in Chicago, ignored the intended singles and started playing Gravevine obsessively. And the result, well, the demand was so undeniable that Barry Gordy was forced to release Marvin's version as a single. It stayed at number one for seven weeks and became the best-selling single of all time up to that point. And now we return you to your regularly scheduled program on Gladys.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Well, you know, Max, the funk brothers loved her.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

They sure as fuck did.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Because she was a one-take wonder.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

She was a badass.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

While the other acts were doing 40 takes, Gladys and the Pips walked in, laid it down, and left. Efficiency is power.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, but being too good has a price. And we'll talk about why James Brown and Diana Ross wanted her gone right after this.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

You're listening to Max and Mello's Architects of Soul, and we're talking Gladys Knight.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

That's right. Stick around and we'll be right back after this short break. And Mello. This is the Heart of a Line segment. Gladys Knight and the Pips operated on a code of ethics that defined their entire career. The stage is sacred, and you never ever hold back. This wasn't about ego, it was about survival. Because they were often treated as second tier at Motown. They felt they had to be undeniable just to stay in the building. And we know that about Barry. Now, we covered James Brown in season one, The Architect of Discipline.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Right, Max. And how does that string stretch, you may say? How, how? Well, let me show you. Gladys and the Pips came up on the Chitlin circuit before Motown. They had seen James Brown and Jackie Wilson, artists who would literally collapse from exhaustion rather than give a mediocre show. And this fostered their philosophy, Max. Gladys once said, We don't know how we didn't know how to do casual. We only knew how to do complete. But on tour in the late 60s, James actually kicked Gladys and the Pips off the bill. Why you ask?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Well, it was because the Pips choreography designed by Charlie Atkins was tighter than the famous Flames. And Gladys's voice was so big, James couldn't follow it. He told his manager, get them off, they're too good.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

And that is not an isolated incident. This is a study in how a label's architecture can create a pressure cooker that pushes artists to greatness while simultaneously tearing them apart. Now I don't understand how that could work. Anyway, at Motown, Barry fostered this environment of competition breeds excellence. Another thing I can't really understand. He literally pitted his A-list acts against each other to see who would fight the hardest for the throne.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

That's nuts. And the most polite of them was the Gladys Knight versus Diana Ross rivalry. This always-on attitude is exactly what caused the friction with Diana Ross. While Supremes relied on glamour, poison, the look, Gladys and the Pips relied on sweat, precision, and church house power. This was the most polite but pointed rivalry in the building. Gladys Knight was widely considered the superior technical vocalist while Diana Ross was the ultimate star.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yes, she was. In 1967, Gladys Knight and the Pips were the opening actor of the Supremes. Well, how do you like that? Well, Gladys was so consistently killing it on stage, receiving standing ovations and multiple encores, that it was making the headliners look bad. And in the Barry Cordy Pressure Cooker, well, that was bad news. And Gladys noticed that the tour manager was starting to shorten their set. So instead of 25 minutes, they're giving 15. Their goal was to keep the audience's energy reserved for the Supremes. How do you like that? Yeah, yeah. Well, Gladys wasn't having that, neither were the Pips. So instead of being discouraged, Gladys and the Pips condensed their best showstoppers into that 15 minutes. They performed with such a frantic high-level intensity that the audience wouldn't let them leave.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, and according to Gladys' autobiography, when Barry Gordy finally pulled them off the tour, he repeatedly told them they were too good for their own good.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Gladys's That sounds like something that Barry was.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

It's very Barry Gordy. And Gladys's response wasn't anger, it was a quiet confirmation that they had won the night. The official reason, of course, was a scheduling conflict, but the unofficial reason, as we all know, is that they were flat out upstaging the Queen of Motown. Word. And it didn't stop there. Gladys was also famously frustrated that many songs were screened for Diana Ross first. She felt she was getting the scraps, which is why it was such a victory for her when she turned a scrap like I heard it through the grapevine into a bigger hit than the versions intended for other acts.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

She sure as shit did. Boy, she killed it with that one. And the Queen might have had them removed from the Motown review, but Gladys taught us if the headliner is scared, guess what? You're doing it right. Don't dim your light to make someone else feel comfortable. If the headliner can't handle your heat, well, that's their blueprint problem, not yours. And why does this matter today, you ask? Well, in the age of social media and opening slots for big tours, and while many artists are told to play it safe, Gladys and I proves that excellence is your best defense. If you outshine the headliner, well, you might lose the tour, but hey, you'll win the fans for life.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

That's right. And don't forget the Pips match.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Now we can't forget the Pips.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Right. The Pips weren't background. Bubba, ML, and Edward were the rhythmic engine. They had a philosophy. Even if they were stuck in the back with bad lighting, they were going to outdance every person in the room. And they did.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yo, they sure did. So why should they be any different than Gladys and do their homework just like she did? Well, they did. So during the 60s, Motown reviews, which happened every year, where ten acts might perform in one night, the Pips would watch other groups from the wings to scout their moves. So if the headlining group did a spin, while the Pips would go out and do a double spin.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Exactly, Max. They believed that if you gave a headliner performance while you were the opening act, the audiences would eventually demand that the roles be swapped. They turned every 20-minute set into a Super Bowl halftime show. They were atmosphere, Max. They were the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

They truly were. Indeed, they were, Mill. They pioneered vocal choreography using the body to punctuate the story. And for our peers today, this is a good goal. Make the headliner sweat. Give it all you got and then something. So when you leave, leave them wanting more of you. Don't think that won't scare the shit out of the headliner. Yep. Make every performance count, no matter what the style. And in that regard, we're gonna go talk about how she took a country plane and turned it into a midnight train right after earlier.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

You're kicking it with Max and Mellow's Architect of Soul, and we're talking Gladys Night.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

That's right. So make our day and stick around.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

We're back for a segment for like and subscribe, y'all.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

YouTube too. Be there. Check it out. This has been a public service announcement from Max and Mello. Alright, Mello, it's 72. Gladys pivots. She finds a country song called Midnight Plain to Houston. It was written for Sissy Houston, who is Whitney's mom for those who don't know. And as well, she is a wonderful gospel singer. Now, this is all part of a string that starts with a non-Motown songwriter that ends up with a Grammy winning song and a new chapter for Gladys.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

The song, Max, Neither One of Us Wants to be the first to say goodbye, which is my favorite Gladys Knight song.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It is a beautiful song. I love it too.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

It's a landmark story because it marks the precise moment that Gladys Knight and the Pips transitioned from a reliable Motown act to global superstars. And it almost didn't happen because of a chance encounter in the hallway.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

That's right. The song wasn't written by a Motown staffer, but by a Mississippi-born former college quarterback named Jim Weatherly. And Weatherly was a country pop songwriter who specialized in polite heartbreak. He recorded his own version first, but it went nowhere. And his publisher, Sonny Limbo, who was based out of Atlanta and was working with Sissy Houston at the time. Well, as we said, Sissy, aside from being Whitney Houston's mom, was a powerhouse session singer and a gospel legend. And she was looking for a solo pop crossover hit. And she sang with Elvis. She was in the Sweet Inspirations, which was his background singers, and she sang on songs like Suspicious Minds.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

She also sang with Aretha on Natural Woman. And Sissy Houston was that high opera-like uh obligato on A No Way. Which is legendary.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

It is magnificent. Also, she sang on Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

And with Jimi Hendrix on uh you know, we spoke about Jimi Hendrix on the Isaac Brothers thing, and she sang on Jimi Hendrix's Burning of the Midnight Lamp.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

That's correct. And uh don't forget she sang on Dusty Springfield, Son of a Preacher Man. And with Paul Simon on Mother and Child Reunion. And who could forget that? And of course, we did say before, she's a gospel ledger.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Oh, yeah. Till the day she died. She was still a gospel great.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

And now back to the story and Sonny Limbo. Sonny played her Weberly's demo of the song, and she loved it, and she recorded Midnight Plane to Houston. Only she changed it.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, well, Sissy loved the melody, but she had two major issues with the lyrics that changed music history.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Truly changed history.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah. First, she told Sonny Limbo, My people don't take planes to Houston.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Gotta love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

They take trains.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

You gotta love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Trains are more soulful and a class with the narrative of the song better. So then she said, Well, since she was from the East Coast and felt Georgia sounds better and felt more down home than Texas.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Well, of course.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Right. And of course, Jim Weatherly can't gave them permission to change the title, and since the Houston recorded Midnight Train to Georgia in 1972.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

And they put that out. So he actually wrote three songs for Gladys, including Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me and Peaceful Waters Flow, along with Midnight Train to Georgia. But right now we're getting ahead of ourselves. So it's 72, and they're Bill still at Motown, and they're feeling really rejected, often playing second fiddle to the Temptations and Diana Ross, which of course we already know how that was working out. So they'd already decided to leave and sign with Buddha Records. And knowing they were leaving Motown, finally decided to put them in the studio with Joe Porter to record Neither One of Us. It was recorded in late 72 in one of their final obligations to the label. Now, here's the thing they're going to Buddha Records, and Buddha knows that this song is about to come out. So they're pushing this song. And the reason they're pushing the song is because they know that when she gets to Buddha Records and they put out Midnight Trainer Georgia, that song is gonna fly because neither one of us won a Grammy. No shit.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And Motel released the song in early 1973, Max, just as the group was literally packing their bags for their new label. And guess what? The song became a massive crossover hit, reaching number two on the Billboard Hot 100, as well as number one on the Soul Chart.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Had a lot to do with Buddha sticking their nose in and helping Motown push that song without Motown even knowing. And the irony mellow, it became the group's biggest hit for Motown. And after they had already left the building, right? It won the Grammy for Best Pop Vocal Performance by a duo or group, proving that Gladys didn't need the Motown machine to be a powerhouse. She just needed the right song. And you know, where she heard that song was when she was in the offices of Motown in LA. So she's walking down the hallway and she hears the song. And she goes into the Near The One of Us, and she goes in the office and she says, I want that song. And if she hadn't heard that song, this whole thing never would have happened.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Wow. And it was her biggest Motown hit.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

It was. Wow. So one of the things that makes this record a masterpiece is the vocal arrangement. The opening starts with that sparse lonely electric piano. You know, the Gladys Liver is one of the most restrained adult vocals in soul history. There's no screaming. It's all in the breath and the phrasing and the pips, their oohs and ahs. They act like a Greek chorus, mirroring the inner dialogue of the couple's hesitation.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Funny how little changes make the difference. Sissy was the one who said, My people don't take planes, we take traits.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

She sure did. And that was a big one.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Right. She changed the title, but the song still didn't move. When Gladys got it, she did the final redesign. She made it about her following him.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

And that was the major change that made that song work. She added the line about the superstar who didn't get far. She made it about the struggle. And the pips, they built that choo-choo vocal architecture on the fly, and they turned that country ballad into a soul cathedral. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah, she was brave enough to sue Motown for royalties and walk away to Buddha Records. She walked out with a number one hit, Neither One of Us, Still Ringing, and she owned her freedom.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

That's right. And we're gonna wrap up with her business empire and our final thoughts next.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Stick around.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, you're listening to Max and Mel's Architects' Soul. We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yes, and speaking of Gladys Night, Max, she didn't just sing, she built.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

That's right. Aside from music, she took on the food industry, too.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

That's why she built Gladys Night and Ron Wynn's Chicken and Waffles. She turned her brand into a destination.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

That's right. Not only was she an architect of music, she was an architect of soul, she is an architect of food too. And even when things got messy later on with her son's management of that food service, she handled it with the same gray shoes when James Brown kicked her off the tour bus. She stood tall, protected her name, and kept building. I mean, I do want to say that I did have the great pleasure of meeting and working with Gladys and her pips when I first got to the Apollo back in the day. The band was wonderful, and the music sounded amazing from Great Fun to Georgia to save the overtime for me, one of my favorite songs. And that night, I damn sure would have, Melo. I damn sure would have.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

I don't believe you would have, Max. I do. Well, from winning Ted Mac at seven to staying relevant for 70 years, she's the reminder. Build on the truth. If you tell the story right, the audience will follow you anyway.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Oh, definitely. And one more story before we kick the can down the road. So listen up. This is an important one because the legal battle between Gladys Knight and Motown is a masterclass in how the industry tries to own the artist's identity. The battle wasn't just about a contract, it was a fight over their very name. You understand that? Your name, a name you chose. When Gladys Knight and the Pips left for Buddha Records in 1973, Motown didn't go quietly. They leveraged every clause in their old contract to keep the group from profiting at their new home.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Legal claims for a significant period in the late 1970s, Gladys Knight was legally barred from recording with the Pips.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

What an unbelievable unreal.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

The result is this is why you see solo Gladys Knight albums like Miss Gladys Knight and solo Pips albums like At Last and The Pips from 1970 to 1980. They were physically in the same room, but legally they had to be in separate, they had to be separate entities.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

It's unmitigated gall. Motown tries to claim that because the group had reached their peak fame in Motown. The brand belonged to the label. What a lot of balls. Gladys and her brother Bubba fought back with a simple, undeniable fact. They were the Pips long before Barry Gordy ever knew they existed. First off, they proved they'd been performing as the Pips since 1952. Named after their cousin James Pipwoods, they'd already been a professional group for 14 years before signing with Motown in 66. We covered that first segment. Barry should watch this. Oh, he's dead. Never mind.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Uh actually, Barry is very much alive.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Well, then he should watch it. It'll probably kill him. It only gets better from here.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Uh, yeah, hell yes, Max. So as they were becoming the biggest stars at Buddha Records, Max, Midnight Trade, Georgia, a massive legal web spun out.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Hell yes, Mello. It was a multi-way war. At one point, there were lawsuits flying between Motown, Buddha Records, and the group itself. Motown filed a hundred million dollar lawsuit against Buddha for interference with their contract. And this litigation effectively froze the group's ability to release music as a unit for nearly three years. Hence the same room, different recording theory. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

The group eventually won the right to keep their name and reunite in the studio, but they paid for it with years of lost momentum. They didn't fully reunite until 1980 when they signed with Columbia Records and released the hit Landlord, produced by Ashford and Simpson, who, coincidentally, will be our next architects of Seoul.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Alright, this story is a reminder that in the Soul era, the label often viewed the artist as a product they manufactured. Gladys proved that she was the architect of her own success. She brought the blueprints, the talent, and the name with her when she walked. And as always, we just want to close with our final thought. And our hope for all of us are art, our craft, and our creations.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Keep that soul fire burning, protect your sound, nurture your creativity, own your voice, and remember the lessons from the giants who came before.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

And yes, protect your masters and seek out wise mentors who can guide you on your journey. And until next, we mean peace and soul, y'all.