Vitamin D

The boys are in mourning. Jonathan and Tom process the surprise cancellation of And Just Like That... Their grief spiral leads to a deeper conversation about their own winding career paths and the danger of linking your identity to your self-worth.

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Jonathan: [00:00:00] What's up? What's up? What's up? We did it. Uh, we did it. We did it. We're still doing it. Episode seven. Here we go. Welcome to the No Hum podcast. We've really ironed out all the kinks. We're coming in super smooth. Our opening is Flawless. The No Homo podcast with Jonathan and Tom. 

Tom: Um, Jonathan. I'm Tom. Uh, we are recording this on Friday, August 1st.

Um, do you wanna tell 

Jonathan: us why we're recording this? Yeah, because, uh, we're going on vacations because we got trips, 'cause we got summer plans, we got trips, we got trips to take. We got magic to do, people to see magic, to do people to see. We'll be, we'll be out in a boot, we'll be traveling, we'll be at beaches and at parties and, and different places.

Yeah. I, I think 

Tom: our trips are gonna be a little different. A 

Jonathan: little different, probably. Yeah, a little bit different. I'm sure we'll have time to talk later about how different our trips are. 

Tom: Yeah. I, I think so. 

Jonathan: But maybe you'll find some fans along the way that need servicing. 

Tom: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. So we're, we're [00:01:00] gonna be recording the next couple episodes out of order.

Uh, so we'll let you guys, not out of order, but out of, um, normal recording time. Yeah. Out of time. It be, 

Jonathan: and I, I, for those who tune in, uh, for the timely hot. Takes of current events. Uh, sorry, we're not gonna be as on top of Yeah, sorry. The current events. So, you know, stick around for, uh, someone just like that and some vulnerables and some people we wanna fight.

That's, that's what you can be here for. 

Tom: That's, yeah, that's right. That's right. Speaking of, and just like that, I want to check in with you immediately to see how you're handling today's news. Oh, 

Jonathan: it's hot off the presses today. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I don't know how to handle it. It's like. Well, well, why don't you fill everyone in?

Why don't you go ahead for, uh, 

Tom: so in, yes, in just like that. Um, Michael Patrick King has announced on, uh, social media and press releases. I guess that this will be the last and final season. This season we're in 

Jonathan: both last and final. It'll be the last final season, just like that. 

Tom: This is it. And that they originally intended 10 episodes, but recorded.

Two secret episodes. Now they've split 

Jonathan: it into, [00:02:00] yeah. And maybe the dates still line up with what they've always had announced and maybe they got canceled. And this is, yeah, this is like the, this is, but, but also, absolutely, if we can make up stepfathers three seasons in, we can also make up the plan for how we were gonna do this.

I'm, I'm all for it. All for it. Are you sad though? I'm sad. Yeah. I am sad. It feels weird. It's, uh. I'm sad that it's not gonna be around anymore. Yeah. That we don't have an next season to look forward to. Yeah. And maybe we'll get, uh, uh, sister Rose O'Donnell spinoff, though. That's what I want next. 

Tom: That would be amazing.

And, and for all the haters that hate this section, just bear with us a couple more episodes. Um, we have to talk about, so the, the episode we're talking about is, and just like that episode 10, it aired last night. 

Jonathan: Yeah. 

Tom: Um, I thought it was one of the most. Bonkers pieces of Grite aid they've had in a while.

I can't tell 

Jonathan: you the, I felt so good to be back. We had a, we had a couple of weeks where it almost felt like a real TV show, and thank God we are back to Loony Town. 

Tom: Like what so many disparate plot lines that had nothing to do. There was [00:03:00] a hamster, a loose 

Jonathan: hamster kind of. There was talk about a loose ham, a loose hamster.

Did they find it? I don't know. It's like checkoffs, hamster. I think they did find it. Of course they found it. Nothing fucking happens. Where was it? I don't know. It, it was gonna be a big deal and then they found it. But, but here's what I was most happy about that early on, like, like maybe right away, maybe the first scene right away.

Steve was back. I'm so glad, Steve, I'm so glad that Steve was back and Steve was. Back a thousand. He was taking all of his shots and he, he knew he had one scene this season and boy oh boy. Oh boy. Yeah. Yeah. Loved it. Loved it. Went from zero to abusive father in three seconds. It was incredible. 

Tom: Yeah. I was like the between the hamster.

I don't know what was Charlotte's storyline 

Jonathan: with that? I, I, I, I guess that's the extent of the vertigo, right? Like it's, she, it's, it's, it's nothing like, it's like she's gonna get it fixed because she has. An I don't know. I, I don't [00:04:00] know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. It took, it took three tries to get her Zoom to work with this psychic and then it all got better, I guess.

I don't know. I dunno. Yeah, 

Tom: I don't know. She's an executive producer on the show. What did she think when she read that script? I would've been like, what? Um, Mia farting Mia, the pregnant farting gross. 

Jonathan: There's a, this is, this is another one of those examples of like, it takes something, it takes. A, a, a hot button topic.

All right? Like, like child, not child, teen, young pregnancy, young, unwanted pregnancy. We almost touch on abortion. We touch on, we get, we get real close, and then all we end up with is pregnant farts. Just fart jokes. That's all we get from that. And, and like, who's the bad guy in that scene? Because Miranda is way outta line.

Just going in there like that. Yeah. Way outta line. And then Mia is a fucking kook who just like sprays it with water and talks weird shit. Like that's who's the, who's, who are we supposed to be rooting for in that scene? I, I don't know. I don't know The farts. That's who we're supposed to be rooting for that scene.

The farts 

Tom: for the hot gardener. I'm still rooting for him. Welcome. 

Jonathan: And his apartment 

Tom: though. [00:05:00] And his mommy issues. Oh my God. Um. I also, I I meant to ask you what happened to the, remember they had a friend. She was like a professor. Yeah, she was, yeah. You know what happened 

Jonathan: to her? She became a cautionary tale to everyone you fuck around.

You will get written right off this show if you, did they ever, did they say goodbye to her? Where did she she go? They did nothing. She just, she just went away. She's just gone. That was it. We never heard from her again. LTW was coming real close to that, like the last couple episodes. I was thinking like, is Charlotte going that way too?

They can't write off Charlotte. Well, she's getting one scene in episode this time. She got three. 32nd scenes. 

Tom: I, I, I don't 

Jonathan: know. 

Tom: Next week I want to hear how you think it's all gonna wrap up. 

Jonathan: Okay. Would you predict predictions? Predictions. Predictions? Okay. Predictions great because I like the fucking, the doors are open.

Take a pic. Like just, I, I say the bigger, bolder, the better. 

Tom: Well, okay, so we've been watching, I don't know if I told you, we are in this house. Big fast. We just started watching a couple, a couple weeks ago, big fans of the Gilded Age. 

Jonathan: Oh, okay. We just 

Tom: caught up [00:06:00] last night. So they're in season three right now.

I think there's like one or two more episodes. 

Jonathan: Okay. 

Tom: And we are fully caught up. Okay. So we'll be, we will be watching in real time. Dude, it is. Good. Yeah. It's such good television. Yes. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's like, it's really good. We're addicted. Well, tell me like what's, 

Jonathan: I mean, don't spoil too much, but tell me what's good.

I mean, mean you saw 

Tom: Daton Abbey at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same creator, same idea. Yeah. It takes place in America. Uhhuh. Um, about 30, 40 years before Daton Abbey. So like during the Gilded Age? Yeah. Hence the title. Title. Wait, slow down. Hold on. Um, and it's like the new money in New York. Versus the old money in New York.

Yeah. Who don't want the new money there. And um, yeah, it's just like, it's just delicious. It's so good. It's chockfull of theater actors. Yeah. You've got Audra McDonald, you've got Kelly O'Hara. You've got um, Patrick Page. Yes. Um, the girl from p Peter in the Star Kitchen, um, 

Jonathan: I'm not gonna get that yet. I forget 

Tom: her name.

Um, the Scarlet Pimp Pernell guy. You've got, um, keep doing it like this though. This is, this is really good. Yeah, yeah, [00:07:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. That one from, that one thing. And Felicia Rashad, Brian Stokes, Mitchell, 

Jonathan: Felicia Rashad, who 

Tom: I didn't know Ask. Yes. There's one scene. There was one scene the other day where I told Quan like, you have no idea how many Tonys are on that screen right now.

Yeah, that's cool. Um, so that's pretty fun. Yeah. And everybody's great in it. And it's, uh, I just think it's really. Well done. And, and Cynthia's in that too, right? Isn't she Cynthia is in that, yeah. Yes. Okay. So it's like double Cynthia action right now. 

Jonathan: Wait, I wanna go back for one second. One second. After the scene with, uh, Brady and Steve and her at the table, she finished it with the best acting button ever of just pushing the dinner plate away.

Tom: Yeah, 

Jonathan: it was the best button to a scene. I'm glad that she's carrying over to the other show that you're watching. Just Steve is yelling and fist and then she just. I mean, she's a 

Tom: pro. She's a fucking pro. What were they that, you know what drove me nuts is when they did that, um, like 1960s telephone thing with the girls with the screen.

Jonathan: Oh God. Yeah. 

Tom: She did their threeway call. What drove me nuts is the sex ethnicity has never done that. That is not in the vocabulary of the show. You cannot [00:08:00] introduce new cinematic vocabulary. Hey, with three episode left, Hey all. First 

Jonathan: of all, watch your fucking mouth. They can do literally whatever they want.

They have made that clear they can do. Whatever they want. It doesn't have to be tethered to reality or proper storytelling. You're fine with it. You, you approve not I, oh, i, I, I always jumped ahead and started making predictions. I have a wish. Can I make a wish? That's not a prediction. Yeah. Yeah. I, I wish and it won't happen, but I wish, I wish that.

Cha would make a a, an appearance would make a can. I know, bro. But no, I know. They, they they are, they are. They're fully gone, but they're gone. Yeah. But I wish, um, anyway, so you're watching the Gilded Age. What else do you want do watching the Gilded 

Tom: Age and then we, uh, we saw Fantastic Four this week, which we loved how it's, it's, it's a, it's a, the first Marvel, Marvel movie in a while that we were really excited about.

Jonathan: It feels like Marvel and DC right now have gone on this kind of like vintage-y thing. Is that true? Like Superman has this kind of like, Ooh, uh, older vintagey feel. It looks like Fantastic four. 

Tom: Like, yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, they're both, um, [00:09:00] embracing both movies embrace color more. Both movies embrace what the original comics looked like.

Jonathan: Yeah. I think that's, we had so 

Tom: long with dark superhero movies. Yeah. I think they're just trying to turn the page on that. 

Jonathan: Yeah. 

Tom: Um, but it's great. The performances are great. Uh, Vanessa Kirby is fantastic in it. Um. Yeah, it's really good. It was a good movie. 

Jonathan: Are you keeping up at all with, uh, with Pedro, with like, what's, like, do I keep up with Pedro?

Yes, bro. Why is the zeitgeist turning on him? It just, it feels like, is he turning? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, maybe not, maybe not big time, but like there's little, like people are starting to have problems with some of the things that he does, and this is not me saying I have problems with day, but I'm just noticing that people, I, I feel like no problems.

Uh, you know, his anxiety and he, he like likes to touch to ground. Uh, oh. Yeah. And, uh, there's been a couple of whisperings that, like, that's more of an excuse to touch women and there's like, he's gay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's all of it, I think, I don't think any of it's, I don't think there's any kind of, uh, uh, reality to any of it.

I think that what's happening is a, a good person has spent as long as they can [00:10:00] at the top of the zeitgeist, and now it's time to bring 'em down. 

Tom: Yeah, it happened with Taylor Swift too. You can't be, it happens with, you can't be too, it doesn't happen with men all the time 

Jonathan: because men aren't used to that good there, but, but you take something pure and good, and you take a woman, or you take someone like Pedro and they can only spend so long at the top before they have to get knocked down a peg.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you could spend 

Tom: all the time at the top. 

Jonathan: I thought that I was, uh, more 

Tom: of a power bottom, but I appreciate that. Well, but it's like, I just wanna know like, how are you looking the way you're looking today? Because you signed on and I was, there's like a twinkle, there's like a little gruffness with the facial hair and I, um, I was excited.

Jonathan: Well, I'll tell you, I have a little bit of a twinkle because we're going out tonight. I'm looking forward to that man. We're going out tonight. Yep, yep. Um, we've got a party and we'll be talking about that I'm sure soon, but I'm excited to, I'm excited to get out with you and party with you. Awesome. What's, I also, I also have a little twinkle maybe because I just found out that a film I shot last, uh, that I was a part of last, that I shot last fall in New Orleans.

Um, got accepted it into the Toronto International Film Festival. Oh, should so, uh, yeah. [00:11:00] Um, um, I don't think I'm invited to any of this stuff. It was a small part, but it's cool that it's going, um, the film. Give it a quick shout out if you don't mind. Charlie Harper. Um. Directed by Tom Dean and Mac Eldridge.

Uh, it was a really cool thing to shoot in New Orleans for a few days. Stars, uh, I did some work with Amelia Jones. Um, it's, it was cool. I, I, all I'll say is I play a chef and, um, it was a lot of fun. Um, I think we're kind of in like a, a. You know, kitchen renaissance right now, and we have been for a while.

You know, I think Bourdain started it over a decade ago, and we're like, the bear is, is carrying that torch. And so this is kind of like, it's not a kitchen. What's a chef for you? Um, what, uh, like tell me about your, how did you, uh, it, I was a, uh, a very, a very hardnosed uh, temperamental kind of chef. Yeah. It was like, like really high standards and, uh, flipped out sometimes, like good, uh, like, uh, Emelia Jones.

But is a chef. She like, she becomes a chef. And so I'm kind of in some flashbacks. So the story, the story mm-hmm. The story does some cool stuff. Jumping around at time. Kind of a 

Tom: chip on your block kind of thing. [00:12:00] 

Jonathan: Uh, chip on my shoulder. Yeah, chip on my, chip on my block. Is it 

Tom: chip on your chip on your Yeah, 

Jonathan: I got a big chip on my block.

Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. That kind of like high standard hot tempered chef or like the, you know, the food's good, the restaurant is pristine, but also things can flip out in the kitchen sometimes. 

Tom: I can see it. 

Jonathan: It was good and, and it, it brought up a, a, a thing that I haven't thought about in a long time, but our dear friend, Christina Grady, um, gave me as an actor the best acting note I've ever gotten.

For me personally 

Tom: contextualize who Chris Christine is. Christina 

Jonathan: Grady is a, uh, a director, choreographer, uh, for. Performance extraordinaire. She is. Um, oh man. What's she doing right now? She's, she's professor directing everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. She's everywhere, but she's at, um, Penn. Penn State. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but yeah, she's phenomenal. We worked with her a bunch and along, she was the associate choreographer of Hair on Broadway. Whatever, 15 years ago, and I was in for it and I was auditioning and I was at the dance call and she gave this big, long speech about how the dance, the moves are less [00:13:00] important, that it's not about being graceful.

Hair is about a bunch of teens being rebellious and rebelling and we were doing like the be in as the dance. And so it's like she kept being like, here are the moves. But guys, this is all about testosterone. This is about being angry. This is about protesting and fighting against the Vietnam War. And I was like, I got fucking this all day long.

Let's go. And um. I did the audition, felt fucking great about it. And then afterwards she said that the casting director like literally pointed me out and was like, what's wrong with this guy? Is he okay? And it was so heartbreaking to hear, but she said the, that she said the, the most, uh, uh, uh, beneficial note that I've, uh, other than all the notes you've ever given me as a performer.

Thank you. Thank you. You covered? Yeah. The next most beneficial note I've ever gotten, which was when, when any, anytime a director says, be angry or be aggressive, uh, me, Jonathan, do you think. 85% of that don't think, go [00:14:00] all the way, think 85%. And that came up in this, there, there was a, and during the callback there was like, uh, some scenes where the chef is, is flipping out and I was flipping out and the guys were like, cool.

That's really good. Can we maybe like. Pull back on that a little bit and see what that's, you didn't remember, you didn't remember the note? No, I did. That was still 85%. Oh shit. But that's, you know, that was with a few more years under my belt and like, so, but I think the anger had increased so the percentage had to come down further.

Oh yeah. Yeah. 

Tom: You have to recalibrate basically. Yeah. And now recalibrated, 

Jonathan: that was the problem. But all that is to say at the Toronto International Film Festival, uh, in a month or two. Uh, Charlie Harper, and I'm not sure where it's gonna be after that, but I will be sure to haw it on here and let you know.

Tom: Com. Congrats, man. I, I was hoping like your Brat Boys video was coming out. Uhhuh 

Jonathan: Uhhuh, 

Tom: no joke. Just joking. Joking. That's a joke. I dunno if the gay, no, don't worry about it. I'll show you just for the gays. Great. I'll show you. Sometimes I like how. Nope, nope. Nevermind, [00:15:00] nevermind. Remember I told you there's a.

Porn star that I think looks like you. Yeah, I do. Yeah. That I'm referencing him. Bra boys. For those of you in the know, 

Jonathan: why are we shout? Okay, great. Well, you know what, if 

Tom: we could shout out the 

Jonathan: Toronto International Film Festival, 'cause we can also shout out porn 100 

Tom: hundred percent. And like for the Jona fans, if they, if they need an outlet, I'm sharing what my outlet has.

Spanish. What? Oh God. Okay. 

Jonathan: I, I'm sure this poor performer is doing very well on his own. He does not need, yeah. Yeah. I 

Tom: think he's doing very well actually. Um, so it's interesting you started talking about your auditioning days 'cause I wanted to talk today about like our career changes. We've known each other.

Uh, how long did we decide. Uh, 17 years. 1817. 18 years. 18 years. So we've seen each other through a lot of changes. Yeah. Um, you know, that I, uh, recently have made the move to corporate America. 

Jonathan: Yeah. 

Tom: Uh, which is a big change for me. Um, and so just to give you know, listeners, viewers background, um, I went to college to be an actor.

Um, I [00:16:00] realized very quickly that I was not great. I was good. I was like a good actor. I think I'd be better now. Uh, but I was like, uh, I wasn't great and it didn't help. My college roommate was Andrew Reynolds. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And he, yeah. And like he was as good as he is now then. Like that guy's been a star since the day he was born.

Yeah. Um, there, there wasn't. Truthfully anything he needed to learn at college. And he dropped out early and 'cause he didn't need to be there. 

Jonathan: Yeah. 

Tom: Um, and he, uh, so I, I, I would look at him and be like, well I am not that. I will never be that. Um, and then I found directing and I realized that that actually did make sense and that I'd always been kind of directing.

I directed my show choir when I was in high school. I kind of would. Direct the school musical, I would take over and restage the scenes. Yeah. Um, I do, when I was a kid, I would direct like plays in our garage of the neighborhood. Kids like it, it was my personality. Yeah. Um, and even as an actor, I had trouble, um, focusing just on what I was doing.

I was always worried about the story and what everybody else was doing, which is like. Death for an actor. Um, part of the reason I wasn't great, [00:17:00] so, um, I was a theater director for a long time, as you know, that's when we met. Mm-hmm. For almost 20 years. I ran a theater company in New York City. Um, I had a, I had plenty of artistic success, but not really financial success.

Mm-hmm. Um, and when I was like in my late thirties, um, as you know, I started to, um, get. Nervous about retiring and, and, and money. Yeah. And like what, what, what was I doing with my life and how was I gonna retire someday? Um, and I had a lot of heartbreak with directing, um, lots of projects that I would work on for a long time and help develop.

And then they would move on and replace me with a bigger name director. Yeah. Um, a couple of times where projects I worked on with friends, the friends screwed me over. Really, really heartbreaking. And I, I just kind of, uh, kind of had my fill with it and needed to say goodbye, which was a really hard decision.

Um, and I think what I learned about myself at that time was, um, how much I was tying my self-identity and self-worth, really. 

Jonathan: Yeah, for sure. 

Tom: To. My, uh, [00:18:00] my career as a director. And so when I abandoned it, I, I suddenly like didn't know who I was anymore. 

Jonathan: Yeah. 

Tom: And also like my life changed so much, like, so many people that were in my life disappeared when I can no longer get people jobs.

Yeah. People just, that fucking sucks, man. Yeah. It just suck. I mean, the real ones stayed, but, um, yeah. And, and it was, that was hard to like, um. Yeah. And, and so then I worked in TV and film for a couple years, as you know. And uh, that was really fun and interesting and, um, but not 

Jonathan: exactly directing, right? I mean, it was like still it was artistic, but it was, yeah, I 

Tom: was working in development for a production company.

I did some post-production supervision. Um, but the TV business is really not doing well right now. And so, um, the company I was working for just kind of pulled back and I was let go. And so, um, I've made the move into. Corporate America. 'cause Daddy needs to make some money. Yeah. Uh, you know, we, unless the podcast is gonna start taking off, let's get 

Jonathan: them sponsors.

Let's get them sponsors. 

Tom: So I just want to hear like, 'cause I know you've gone through and I want to hear your changes, like you've gone through similar career changes. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the 

Jonathan: same [00:19:00] things. Yeah. It's the, it's, um. I mean, me, it was, it was more that, uh, well, I mean very, very similar. I, uh, the, the external circumstances were that I had kids, um, I had small kids that needed, um, we needed more money, we needed more stability.

Um, and I spent a long time, like years, my, my son's six. So really it's like, and when he was born, I was performing off Broadway in a. It partially improvised musical, and I loved it. And I kind of thought like, oh, I, I might springboard into exactly what I wanna be doing. I was shooting, I was booking roles on tv, but they like small roles on tv.

But they were on tv. You were in the Marvel 

Tom: Universe, the 

Jonathan: MCU. I'm in the Marvel universe. I was, I was in the Marvel universe, you know, so like, it, it felt still are. You could come back. I I could, I could still come back. Yeah. Um, uh, it, it, I was, I was holding onto that. Kind of, I guess what you're saying too, like there were, there was plenty of heartbreak, there were plenty of things that like got close to happening and then [00:20:00] like I was, uh, I, I filmed a pretty fun role in the movie Oceans Eight that got cut before it was released.

You know, the whole, the whole plot I was a part of got cut. There was a few things like that that you just go, okay, you take that on the chin, you keep moving, it's part of the business. Um. And then I, the show off Broadway had like a horrible closing, like it was like immediate closing. Uh, and I don't want to, uh, talk too much shit right here and right now, but it was just handled horribly.

And the show. Crashed, uh, and um, there were some great people involved in that who also got hurt along that way. And that was really, uh, really a bummer. And then, uh, COVID happened, and so then we were shut down for a while, and then we came back from that. It was like, this was the second time for me. So in 2008, I was on my way.

I wasn't doing great as a musical theater performer. I think that was right before I realized I was never gonna match the singers that were making it on Broadway. But I was, I was working, and then 2008, the, the housing market crashes. New York kind of crashes for a bit. Broadway takes a big hit, and then everyone [00:21:00] tears back a job, like tears back a level.

Right. So then now I'm competing in 2009, I'm competing with people who have tons of Broadway credit for regional shows. Yeah. And like, I'm not gonna book that. So. Grind it out another way, start doing some other things. Fast forward to 2020, same thing happens. The whole industry shuts down. We get back into work in, uh, you know, whenever 21 and it the same thing.

I'm competing with guys. I'm in rooms with guys that I like watching on tv. I'm like, well, shit, man. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna book this against these guys. These are guys who work, who I, you know, work all the time. And, but my, my mindset is, let's. Let's grind this out. This is, this is the gig. Let's grind it out.

And then there was the strike. And then there was just so many things working against the business of performing that when it came down to it, I said, I'm gonna step away. I want to step away. I don't want to do some kind of like half and half try to find a job while also still auditioning full, full-time.

I'm gonna step away. I'm gonna semi-retire. And I felt good about that. And I kind of felt good because like you were saying, [00:22:00] um. The identity that gets attached to it. So much of my, I, I spent so much of my, my time in therapy working on separating my sense of worth and my inner value from the work that I do.

Um, but it's so hard, like as a performer and as an artist, like there's so much of you attached to that. Mm-hmm. Um, and so at first, I. This is actually way more healthy for me. When I step back, I got a, a, a job. My, um, you know, I, I got a job. My brother-in-law offered me a job, um, than I am more than happy to benefit from nepotism.

And so I was like, yes, let's do this. I'm gonna learn a new field. Um, and I, it felt like, great, I can do this job, I can, I can do this job well, I can work hard at it, I can succeed. And also, I don't have to be, have my identity tied to it, but it took me. I don't know, man. I was not as, as self-aware. It, it, of all the time I spent in therapy and all the, the, the, the ways in which I feel like I'm proud of being self-aware and doing work.

One of the things that like snuck up on me was [00:23:00] how, how hard that was for me that I was not paying attention to. Like, it was a few months into not being an actor at all, and it was kind of like, it didn't even feel like. That much changed because I wasn't working that much. I'd book a gig every now and then for a few days, maybe a week on a TV show.

Like it wasn't that much I was doing, but when I stepped away, really the. The part of the energy and the force and the inertia that had been behind me was that I am, my identity is that I'm a grinded out, hardworking actor in New York. Even when I'm not performing, I am, I am working to be an actor in New York because if I stop, then that means I failed.

Like I didn't get, I didn't retire at the top. I didn't get to a point where I was like, I have enough money. I've done this enough. I'm gonna step back. I had to step back because I had to acknowledge I'm not. Making money doing this. I'm not, I'm not succeeding financially at this. And I could not separate that from the idea of like, well now I'm just like being a [00:24:00] outwardly like a failure.

And it was like, it took me a while to realize I was in a pretty low point. Um, uh, a couple years ago at this point. Um, but I was in a pretty low point feeling, uh, uh, I don't know, maybe not ashamed, but like embarrassed by, by having to step away and like, I could never speak about myself with like confidence.

And so in the work, the workforce, I was like brand new to this stuff. So people who've been in the industry for their entire careers, I'm the new guy and I don't know shit. And then I'm also not an actor anymore. So I'm like, well, what, who am I? I'm a kind of stay at home dad. You know, like, it was just hard.

It, that was a really hard part for me was, was the, and it's still like, it, it's not like I even changed the, the facts of that. I just had to become, I had to reframe and become okay with like, well, I did it far, my family. Like I, you know, like I, it's, I don't know. I, I mean, I think it's a normal, 

Tom: um. [00:25:00] Um, human and, and specifically I can say for us male feeling like you want to feel like you're providing you and, and it does feel good to like, go into work and do a good job and come home with a paycheck.

Like that feels good. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Feeling good. Um, and there's nothing wrong with feeling good about your work and that your work, um, if the, if your work is part of what your value and what you bring to this. You know, world. Yeah. I think that that is, I'm not trying to say that that's a bad thing, but for me it was like, um, how, how tied my self-worth was to my work.

Yeah. So that when my work changed, I, I really felt. Terrible about myself. Yeah. Um, and 

Jonathan: it's weird too, to feel like unmoored at Yeah. At middle age. Yeah. Like, and I guess that happens. That's probably what middle age life midlife crises are a lot. But it's weird to feel totally unmoored and like, what do I hold?

What do I hold onto? How do I identify now? It's, yeah. It's tough. Yeah. It's a really hard place to be. 

Tom: Yeah, [00:26:00] I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I know you're gonna gimme shit, but I'm gonna bring up Burning Man again. 

Jonathan: I look, man, at this point you're averaging like once every four episodes, so do it. I'm impressed. What? I'm impressed.

Okay. 

Tom: That's, that's good. That's a good, yeah, that's good. Yeah. Um, I, I, I mean, you know this story already, but I went. To my first burn as a reaction to quitting directing. That's how, how lost I felt and how sad I felt like I really, I was, I was extraordinarily sad when I decided to con, uh, stop directing you.

And also just to 

Jonathan: interject for a moment, you were extraordinarily good at it. So it was a, a thank you loss for you and for the industry, like it was, that's, that has to be tough to move away from. And I think you had a. A bit of an understanding that you were that good. I think you could look at it and see, I dunno how much you felt it, but I think you could look at it and see when you got to do it.

It was good. People knew it was good. Yeah. 

Tom: No, I, I felt like I was good at it too. Thank you. I appreciate that though. Um, yeah. I mean, I still dream about it. I dream about, I miss rehearsal. I miss being in the room. Um, I don't miss pursuing it. I hate the business itself. I'm, I'm glad to be out of that, especially [00:27:00] with COVID.

I think theater is struggling right now, but I. Uh, I was so sad that I needed to do, I recognized that I needed to do something to get myself outta my funk, so I decided to go to Burning Man last minute, which is something I'd always wanted to do. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I, I figured it all out in two months, which, if you've ever gone as a crazy amount of time to spend, uh, to only spend figuring it out.

Um, and I went with this like intention that I was gonna go and I was gonna have this big revelation about what I should do next, that, that the, the burn was gonna tell me what to do. Um, and that's not what happened at all. I, I went and, um, I, I came back with this renewed, um, fire for people and, um, meeting other people and remembering how much I loved, uh, people.

And, um, sort of like a, a hunger for like, um, I mean, it's gonna sound so cheesy, but like. Uh, chasing love. It's, I, I can't believe I just said that, but, um, like, and, and I mean [00:28:00] like for, like, I wasn't ready for a real relationship until I went to the first burn and I came back ready, took me a couple years to figure it out how to, how to have one and how to find the right person.

But I was ready for it in a way I hadn't been for. Been before, but I was also like hungry to meet and fall in love with new friends. And um, and I sort of made a decision because I realized when I came back, like I was still unmoored as you say, I still didn't know what I was gonna do with the rest of my life, but I was like flying high on like.

Um, wanting to, to, to, to be a part of the world again. 

Jonathan: Yeah. And, 

Tom: um, I, I sort of like made a decision to like tie my self worth into how much love I could find in my life and how many friends I could fill it with from all different groups. And, um, I think I've been successful with that. Yeah. Um. 

Jonathan: Yeah, you exhaust me with the number of friends that you make, that you have and that you hold onto.

It's exhausting. I've got one, it's, I've got three. You're one of 'em. Who are the other two? It doesn't matter if I, if I say [00:29:00] two, anyone else is gonna get offended. 

Tom: So, but I do think like, um, part of. The issue that's happening in our country right now is like, you know, we talk about young men and the male loneliness epidemic.

Mm-hmm. We talked about it last week. Um, and I think that there are, um, men, young men in their twenties especially, that are struggling with how to get started in the world and how to find meaningful work. And so, um, as much as I just went on this diatribe about how we shouldn't tie our self-worth to work, it is a part of who we are.

And like, I think we, like as a country, we need to help figure out. Um, I don't know what the answers are, but like, I think part of the problem and part of the anger coming from young men is they feel unmoored. Um, and they don't have enough gay friends. 

Jonathan: That's the main thing. 

Tom: That's the main thing. 

Jonathan: They're not going to, they're not going to therapy or making gay friends.

That's what they, they gotta start with those two. That I got that order backwards. Sorry. Get gay friends, then go to therapy. That's right, that's right. Please get it right then get a job. Job. That's, those are the three things you gotta do, uh, [00:30:00] after whatever school you decide to finish. Yeah. 

Tom: Yeah. I don't know, like what's the secret sauce?

How do 

Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know. That's that. I don't even know where to begin with that. I just know for, for me, it's, it, it feels, it's funny how quickly I then pivoted. And I, I like, I, I don't know. I guess one of the things I always wanna make sure I'm clear about in here, because I love talking about therapy.

I love feeling, I mean, I brag about going to therapy. I'm very, I'm very passionate about self-improvement. I feel like to me, weekly therapy is like gonna, the gym. I don't do it when something goes wrong and I need to fix. I don't think of therapy as a doctor. I think of therapy as the gym so I can continue working.

But that leaves blind spots. Like, like, just like it would if I weren't, like it's, it's very easy for me to. Three or four months later realized like, oh, I've been in a funk because of this thing I have not been looking at, at all. 'cause I was like kind of resting on my laurels, thinking like, I've got some of this stuff figured out, and they're like, oh, fucking no, I don't like, I, like, I am [00:31:00] not at all acknowledging or giving respect to the, the gap inside of me, the, the void when I change careers and I do not have myself.

I did not have my self worth anymore. Yeah. And even like a negative, so even like when it's feeling like I'm getting beat down all the time in the industry, that was at least something. I was strong and I was gritty, and I, you know, had tenacity and I could, I fortitude and I was doing it. And then I had to deal with myself and admit I, it was hard to, it was hard to reframe, to, like, it's pivoting, it's not failing.

And it's, it's still hard for you to think about that. I have, it's more like I have to just accept that I failed. And that's okay. Like you, you're not gonna, I'm not gonna succeed at everything I do. It's just like that's a really hard thing for me to still deal with is, you know, what, to, to what extent is that?

And, and I think we've talked about it before, maybe the first episode, like social media. My, my platform on social media came along at exactly that same time. It's like a weird. You know, the, the universe has a weird [00:32:00] way of keeping that drug flowing through your veins. I like, just felt like maybe I could separate myself from performance, and then it was like, well, here's 10,000 followers and here's 50 and here's a hundred.

You know, like I was like, well fucking, hey man. Yeah. Yeah. And that again, that was another one I thought I had a good grasp on because it's. I'm late enough to the party for social media that I've seen What it does. I know, I know what it is. It's, I know how it can go wrong. So I was like, okay, I got, I got a good grasp on this.

I've got a good eye for this. And yeah, it didn't take long at all for me to accidentally have my, yeah, my dopamine was just in, in injecting into my veins and, and when it wasn't, it was like a, I wasn't, I, I understand the feeling of addiction from this because when like my followers would drop, I. Felt I got depressed or like when I would have, you know, I started trying to get just sponsors and hawking stuff and whatever, and making some money that way.

And then like when that wouldn't do well, I again had tied my identity and my self-worth. To that. [00:33:00] Yeah. And so instead of it just being like, in my mind I was saying like, cool, I've got the mindset for it's just a job now. I'm good with my identity. I'm doing this as a job. And I was just like kidding myself because it, you know, months into being like, oh, I'm depressed.

And I, it's it like I brought up, uh, seasonal depression, uh. Uh, a year or two ago, um, in therapy. And Megan said she was like, and, and my wife Jen, has said this, had said this at the same time when I was bringing up seasonal depression, they both said, you've never brought that up before. I'm surprised like you're just now like getting into this.

And I do think like sunlight and, uh, vitamin D is important and I don't like the cold as much, but it was also timed out with like dips in my life that I wasn't looking at. I'm like, I'm looking at it like, oh, it's January, the sun goes down sooner. It's freezing cold outside. But also what I'm not paying attention to is like the things that I have strapped myself to the, the ways I'm getting myself worth are taking a dip right now.

And I'm just like ignoring the fact that that is also bringing me [00:34:00] down. 

Tom: Yeah. I would love to see you strapped to things. 

Jonathan: I really thought, as I said vitamin D that's why you were gonna get stuck. But I'm glad, I'm glad you waited for, strapped down.

Tom: Um, how I, the social media. The social media stuff, um. Baffles me. That's the wrong word. Um, I, I struggle with social media. I mean, first of all, I resisted it for a long, long time. I was like one of the last of my friends to join Facebook, last to join Instagram. Um, and I, I think you know this like every.

Two years or so, I, I disable my Instagram account and I go dark for a couple months 'cause I just like, and I come back a couple months later. They let you do that. It sort of like removes everything and then if you sign back in, it comes back. Um, and those moments for me are like really healthy and I always sort of like bemoan when I'm back.

Um, because I, I just, um, I struggle with it. It does not always make me feel good. Yeah. Um, I struggle with like. I mean, talk about self-worth, but like, you [00:35:00] know, it's just everybody's filtered Yeah. Versions of themselves and it's, uh, and you can 

Jonathan: remember those things all the time. You can have that like intellectual, you can know that, but it doesn't not feel, it does not feel like that you have to like the, it is, it's built to, it's built to be a dopamine rush and it's built to, um, and.

Parasol, your friend of the pots Scott Galloway, to, to kind of bite off him and paraphrase, like, it's actually not built for the dopamine hit. It's built for the dopamine depletion. Yeah. It's built for the anxiety you feel when you're not getting the rush. So you're back on, you're checking, you're seeing your likes, you're seeing what's going on.

Yeah. You're seeing, and so like, it's really the, it's the need, the addiction. That is how it is so successful. 

Tom: Yeah. And it's like, I'm trying to really limit the number of times a day. I let myself sit and scroll. 'cause it's just, um, yeah, that's just like the worst feeling in the world. Yeah. And like the worst is when you know you're doing it and you wanna stop and you just keep going.

Like, one more scroll. One more scroll. Yeah. Like, what are we all doing? 

Jonathan: Yeah. It's crazy. Insane. It's like, it's, it's, it's such a powerful drug because I, you know, [00:36:00] I, I think maybe some of this is the same for you. Like, smoked for a time in my life and then when I quit, I quit. Yeah. And I, you know, have experimented.

I, there are things that I like. There are things that I do that I am able to say to myself, oh, I don't have an addictive personality. I'm not an addictive type of person. And then I can look, I can see the steps. If I zoom out, I'm like, oh, this is the, these are the steps of addiction. I am in addiction right now.

I am addicted to social media. I'm addicted to this feeling, and I don't exactly like I don't want to be. Yeah. And you know, when it's like having a platform. It's like, all right, I wanna put up videos. It was funny the, the shift that came, but it made it actually so much worse. Um, and it did so much. It takes so much more work to control now and to have a gra uh, have a grasp on like before.

Yes. I, I had an addiction to it. And I also like, you know, in the, in the, the performance industry, entertainment industry, everyone's like, you gotta have a platform. You gotta have a platform. Like, I would not get auditions because I didn't have a large enough platform, you know, so I'm crazy always like throwing shit at the [00:37:00] wall, seeing if I can get bits to work, see if I get something to go viral, whatever, you know, remember when 

Tom: I had more followers than you?

Jonathan: Yeah. That was a cute minute.

Um, and, but that, like, the time I spent on there was usually looking at other people looking at what's going on. Yeah. You know, like, yeah. And then. I then I blew up a little bit, and then it switched. Then it, then I thought, like one of the reasons it got me and kind of tricked me is I thought, I'm not stuck on the part where I need to see what other people are doing.

I'm doing my own thing, but I'm doing my own thing. And then the moment I post a reel, I'm checking every two minutes to see how it's doing and I'm clocking the trajectory of all of it. Yeah. And I was able to put it in, in a way for me that it was like, yeah. This is not me. This is my performance. I'm an artist.

I wanna put my art out there, and I'm interested in how my art is doing in the world. I'm interested in how my work is being received, and I have that unfettered information coming. I can, I can check exactly how it's doing in the world and it, you know, I, it was easy enough to lie to myself for long enough that, that [00:38:00] is not, that I was not equating my value to exactly that.

Tom: I struggle with it, with the clips that we put out for this. And I know we need to, I know that's how we gain. Um, and, and I, uh, don't get me wrong, I, I take immense joy when I see people comment and it, there, there's, when there's supportive comments and fun comments, uh, we haven't really gotten any negative yet.

I'm sure they'll come, but, um, I, uh, the first couple weeks of us putting out the podcast, I was like, well, it was like, uh, icky. Icky. I couldn't, I was like, I don't know. I can't look. I have to look. I can't. I, Ugh. Yeah. And so now, now. Uh, and, and I apologize for this 'cause I know you do so much of the heavy lifting, putting out the clips, but I sometimes now when we release the episode on Thursday, I actually have to like, sort of stay away from.

My phone for about a day because I, um, otherwise I like go too, too down that rabbit hole. Yeah. And so I found it's healthier for me to like, put out the episode and let it go for a day, take a day off. Yeah. And then the next day I start to check in again. 

Jonathan: Take a day, go out in the world on Friday, service a couple of fans, [00:39:00] and then check back in.

I don't 

Tom: know what you're implying that I did with this fan.

Jonathan: No, I, you're absolutely right. Like that is, it's, it's. And it, it's the same cycle that I was going through in, in Perform as trying to be an actor. It's like we're we're, it's just the two of us doing all the legwork for all of this. Yeah. You know? So I keep thinking like, well, I just have to do all this until maybe, you know, maybe we maybe.

Get a manager, maybe we get a producer, maybe somebody takes care of that stuff. And so I don't have to be the one checking in all the time for it, but right now I'm the one checking in all the time. And it's so hard to not be the, like, I, I put it up and then I don't. If you're a Jona fan out there 

Tom: and you're a producer, yeah, let us know.

Yeah. Let us know. Let us know. You know what it's time for. I do. Who would you fight? Who would you fight? Powow. 

Jonathan: Who would you fight this week? Alright, I, excuse me very much. Sorry about that. Um. I would fight. This is, I know you [00:40:00] called me up before, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna preface this a little bit. I, I, this is not a repeat from the vault, this is a bit of a repeat, but I've got more specifics on it now and I will explain why I would like to fight Chris Lania, the CEO of Spring Teespring, the t-shirt company that still owes me.

Three $3,500 for three, three to $4,000. And the reason I know that I've said I wanna fight spring before, um, but that was more of an ambiguous, whoever out there is doing it, and now I know who it is that is in charge of not paying your artists. And it's Chris Lamont. And I would like to, I, I'm not. Uh, I, I understand that CEOs might be in a weird position right now, and I'm not trying to be distasteful.

What I would like to do is invite Chris Lamont, Chris Lamont to a charity boxing match, uh, for exactly the amount of money he owes me. Uh, and you know, we'll go from there, but that's who I like to find it this week. 'cause the CEO, not just the general company, but the CEO o of spring. 

Tom: Let's get him. Who would you like him down?

I would like to fight. Um, and I don't know how [00:41:00] people are gonna react to this one, but, uh, this, this has just bothered me for a long time. People that record fireworks on their phone, people that record concerts on their phone, people that record DJs on their phone, I. Do not understand what people are doing.

First of all, fireworks. Let's start there. Fireworks are 

Jonathan: the funniest. 

Tom: That's the funniest. To see someone post a video on Ooh, in the history of the human universe has gone back months later and been like, let me watch those fireworks from July 4th, 2008. Just, it doesn't translate people, it just understand.

It doesn't translate, doesn't taking a photo of the moon, it's not gonna look the same. Also fireworks, literally look. The same ti 

Jonathan: every time. Yeah. There's no, unless, unless here's what, here's when you can post fireworks. If you were at the, the 4th of July show in San Diego a handful of years ago, or No, when every single firework when they had no function and every single firework went up at the same time.

Tom: But I guess in that, in that situation, you'd have to be recording fireworks, right? You'd already recording fireworks, so you're 

Jonathan: already kind of a shit bag. You're, you're already a, 

Tom: it's just. It's just like [00:42:00] people just, I just want people to be in the moment. Yeah. We have one shot at this fucking time on this planet.

If you are recording a concert, if you're going to see a DJ and you're literally holding up your phone to record a DJ while you're at the show. Yeah. You're doing, you're doing life wrong. I got news for you. I'm 

Jonathan: sorry. 

Tom: Yeah. Although I 

Jonathan: will say this sometimes and I'll, it'll be with you. Sometimes we'll be at shows and there'll be like a great DJ on, and everyone will have their phone up and we'll be far enough.

Back. Yeah. That I can't really see, so I'm like, oh, I'm gonna watch this phone. Yeah, totally. This really hide that phone that's zoom in right now. It it's a sea of phones. Yeah. And I'm 

Tom: sorry, there's what you do. People go home and months later they're like, let me pull up 30 seconds of that tv. Tell you what you did 

Jonathan: not do.

You did not get a better production value than the camera crew that's filming this event. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Also, like if 

Tom: you're doing it to post it on Instagram. I, I'm sorry, that's a little douchey. Yeah. Because there's no one on Instagram that's gonna be like, oh, you went to see this dj, let me watch 30 seconds of the dj.

Right. I didn't go see, it just makes you look like a douche. It's, uh, go to the dj, live your life, be with your friends. Take a picture of you and your friends at the DJ post that. 

Jonathan: There was a, somebody had an article recently, and I don't know who, but it [00:43:00] said that, like the, the opening that line was about exactly this, and I was like, you know how, uh oh, it was to their, their, their.

Past self. It was like to their 1980s self. Yeah. Saying, you know how when you go to someone for Christmas and you have to sit down and watch all of that bullshit, uh, that's what you're gonna do with all of your free time now. 

Tom: Yeah, yeah, 

Jonathan: yeah. 

Tom: Um, and that's where, that's where we've gone. That's what it is now.

Yeah. It's a quote in a New York Times article recently. Yeah. That's what it was. The Times. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I always think of 

Jonathan: David Seras too. I'm gonna bite this and, and mis misquote it to you, but he said he was, I think it was he was seeing the Mona Lisa and everyone had their phones out. Sure. And he said, like, it, it, people changed it from being an experience to just being proof.

Tom: Yeah. There are. Cool. Are you there? A thousand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Proof. Proof for the internet. For the for for the strangers. Yeah. Yeah, for the strangers on the internet. It's just like, just live your life. Be in the moment, man. We got one shot. Yeah. And then like 

Jonathan: a couple times a week, take an hour to record a podcast with their best friends and put that out there for a bunch of strangers to listen to.

That's all you gotta do. That's it. That's it. All right. That's it for tonight. You wanna read us out? Oh, okay. Um, [00:44:00] okay. I'm so nervous. All right. I can do it. You got it. You got it. Thanks, man. Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, make sure to like and subscribe to No Homo with Jonathan and Tom on all podcast platforms and YouTube graphics and music by Matt Ladner.

The opinions expressed on this podcast are solely those of the hosts and are intended for entertainment purposes only. 

Tom: Boom. You did it. Oh, it feels so good. Show me your craw show. Show your craw. 

Jonathan: What is what? Where's the craw? I forgot how we did it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Woo. Oh, woof. Oh, it feels good.

My craw feels good. Woof, bro. Love you. All right, love you. Bye. Bye.