What Great Relationships Teach Us: A Senior Thesis Conversation

In this special episode, Head of School, Katy McKinney, sits down with one of Lafayette Academy’s students, Ellie Schweizer, who just completed her senior thesis exploring virtue, friendship, and the “good life” through the philosophy of Aristotle and the novels of Jane Austen. The senior thesis is a capstone that reflects years of reading deeply, writing with care, and learning to think with clarity.

Through works such as Emma, Sense and Sensibility, and Pride and Prejudice, this conversation explores how relationships shape human character—for better or worse—and why virtuous friendships are essential to human flourishing.

This conversation offers a rare look at what a student is capable of before graduation, when both intellect and character are taken seriously. If you have ever wondered what the end result of a classical education can be, this episode gives you a clear and compelling picture.

At Lafayette Academy: A Classical Education, education is not only about knowledge, but about the formation of character and the cultivation of virtue. The senior thesis is one expression of that formation. It reveals a student’s ability to engage meaningful ideas, speak with confidence, and pursue truth with humility.  In the end, education is not merely the transfer of information; it is the formation of the whole person. 

📚 Featured Works Mentioned

• Nicomachean Ethics — Aristotle
• Emma
• Sense and Sensibility
• Pride and Prejudice

For more information about Lafayette Academy, A Classical School please visit https://lafayetteacademy.org/

For Referenced Resources from the LadyK Podcast Click Here for Download

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Lady K podcast. I'm Katie McKinney, the founder and head of school for Lafayette Academy. And today we have a very special conversation because it captures something deeply that we care about here at Lafayette Academy. We think of our education as not just what students are learning, but instead what they are becoming. And there's a process to that. Kindergarten through 12th grade, there's a process allowing them to become the best version of who they are. And that is what we're after. So today I have the privilege of sitting down with one of our students who has just completed her senior thesis. A senior thesis at Lafayette is a capstone project that pulls together all the different avenues of learning into one synthesized idea. And today we're going to discuss that. So at the core of this senior thesis is a research paper, but it's not just the research paper. It's usually between 15 to 20 pages. But really, this is an exercise in thinking in very deep analysis and asking very important questions as human beings. Questions like, what does it mean to live well? What is the good life? What shapes who we become? And what kind of life is actually worth pursuing? In Eleanor or Ellie's work, she explores questions that are brought about or brought to the thought of Aristotle and then stories of Jane Austen. And she looked closely at the relationships that shape our character, our decisions, and ultimately our ability to live what Aristotle calls the good life. So this is a very powerful subject. It's not abstract, it's very deeply human. And I would dare say, too, that the relationships that we have, all the relationships we have, will either pull us towards virtue or if we're honest, they can tend us towards vice or towards not towards virtue. And your thesis, from what I found, really argues the difference between those types of relationships, which direction is it going to go? And it's very decisive. So I think uh what you're about to hear is not just a student who's explaining her thesis, but it's a young woman reflecting on what she has come to understand about life, about relationships, and of the kind of person that she wants to become moving forward. So with that, let's dive in. So, Ellie, welcome to the Lady K podcast. I thought we would just start with sort of the big idea. Tell us the three books you chose to put your thesis or base your thesis on.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I used three of Jane Austen's works, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, and Emma.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Okay, so let's assume our audience has not read those three books. They haven't read your thesis. Could you explain sort of your central argument in just a few sentences?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Absolutely. It's mainly about the effect of relationships on the heroines, the main characters' decisions, and virtue specifically. It also uses Aristotle's ethics to talk about the different kinds of relationships and how they affect someone's virtue or vice, as you were saying. So the three books all focus on a heroine, and they typically go through some course of their romantic relationships, and they have a conflict that then brings them closer to virtue.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, I thought it was brilliant that you chose those three books and the framework in which you put together, which obviously was beautifully outlined by Jane Austen. But these heroines, they already have flaws. They are confronted. They think those flaws are actually not flaws. They think they're strengths at the at the outset. But then through the process of these relationships, they come to realize there are some pain points with these characteristics, and that causes them to say, I'm not interested in that pain. And do they have the humility to move forward and correct that, become better? And um, I thought it was just brilliant the way you put this together. So let's let's kind of back up just a little bit. You talk about Aristotle. Can you define those three pathways of friendship and the good life? Can you explain a little bit about that for those of us who don't know what the good life is? Give us a little bit of meat behind that, and then we can dive into more of the stories.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yes, so as a broad outline, Aristotle starts with this idea of happiness. How do we get to human happiness? Not in just a shallow temporary sense, but full fulfillment of human life. And he goes through some logical pathways, makes some conclusions, and he decides the way you do that is by virtue. That is how you build a sustainably joyful life. And an important part of that life is, of course, going to be your relationships, relationships with other people because we are social animals, as he says. We are inextricably tied to the people around us. So he goes on to outline different forms of friendships. Starting at what you could say the lowest tier is the friendship of utility, which has some overlaps with the next one, but in its essence is often financial relationships. You pay someone, they do work for you. It's purely for the result of the relationship that you're engaging in it. The next tier is the friendship of pleasure, which are, if you can imagine, people you just do hobbies with, people you just go play tennis with. Just if you're on a tennis team, on some sort of club team, that's going to be a friendship of pleasure. The friendship of virtue, which is the highest and most complete form of friendship, is the one where you engage in all aspects of life with that person, and they are able to bring you towards a more virtuous and more happy life, and you do the same for them.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Wonderful. So you then take your direction, then is taking these three books and focusing on what does it take to live a virtuous life? And in the end, find the good life. Okay. So that's great. That's very helpful. Okay, so let's start at the beginning with what drew you to this idea in the first place. I'm curious how you landed on the idea of virtue, of relationships, and especially combining Aristotle and Austin together.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

When we were initially brainstorming what our thesis topics were going to be, a big question was just what has appealed to you? What has been compelling and motivating and life-changing for you throughout your high school, especially high school, but also middle school, whatever other books you may have read at Lafayette Academy. And for me, that has been Jane Austen. Jane Austen, in a lot of ways, wasn't even in the curriculum that I've read, but it was things that my parents have shown me, things that teachers have shown me, and we explored them in a book club we had, and we read a lot of Jane Austen novels. The book club at school? Yes, the school book club with some of the teachers. And those have always been really compelling stories for me. And also they were enjoyable, and I did factor in. I have to deal with the subject matter for a year. You want it to be um not a slog to get through.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

And then I wanted to combine it with Aristotle because I had recently read Aristotle the year before, and it was very impactful to go through the Nicopean ethics, and it provides such a good foundation and framework for seeing virtue, seeing vice, thinking about the importance of choosing how we act, choosing our values.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Had you ever seen a framework like the way Aristotle puts forth those relationships? Had that ever come to you before? I don't think so, not explicitly. And so when you when you were introduced to that, did that change your thinking as to maybe even your own relationships and sort of understanding the value behind those that give you value and those that maybe don't?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I think, yeah, I probably did. It started down that path at least. I've heard my parents have talked about the importance of you are influenced by the people around you, you are the average of your five closest relationships. Um, but definitely having the categories is helpful in thinking, okay, why am I in this relationship? What is it giving to me? What am I giving to them? Is this a worthwhile use of my time and energy?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

So this is a little bit off our script, but I'm I'm very curious now. So, in in terms of going through this process with this thesis paper, did you find yourself making any decisions with relationships that you've had that you maybe altered? Maybe either you gave more, you poured more into those relationships, or that you found yourself pulling a little bit back because you're like, I don't see the value in this particular. Did that change at all for you? Even since Aristotle or through the thesis?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Not yet. Okay. But I do anticipate it being something I use as a model. Yeah. Um, as I meet more people, especially.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

And I think sometimes to your gut feeling when you meet someone, occasionally you'll get a gut gut feeling that says, I'm not sure this is a real good match. I don't know if we're complete in alignment with where we're both both going. I think that too, that framework helps you analyze that and gives you more, a more solid feel as to maybe discernment in terms of what choices you might make.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, it's very helpful to have a an outlined framework instead of just going with what feels right, because when you don't have it explicitly stated, it's it can be hard to make good decisions.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

And it might be your gut and you think, I'm not sure. You know, I've never faced this before. So I agree with you. Um and I will say, so this particular chapter of Aristotle's ethics is taught in our junior year of high school, specifically so that students have enough life experience from which to draw as they're learning through these principles, but also then it sets them up for this beautiful thesis project. Um, so for whatever that's worth. Okay, so your your choosing of these three stories. Why did you choose these particular stories? What did you find strengthening about them that could help illustrate your thesis?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

So I've talked about my personal connection to the stories through my family, and they've been stories I've been somewhat exposed to for a good amount of time. So I was very familiar with them. And then as I was exploring them, I found this pattern that these three specifically I'll go through, where the main characters are drawn to a specific love interest, and that leads them to certain actions. Those actions worsen their flaws, which as you stated before, they often see as strengths, but it leads to a result that shows them they are in fact flaws. And so through this relationship, they see their vices, they see what they need to work on, and they do, they do put the work in and they change, and then that draws them to what I would call their virtuous relationship, their virtuous marriage. And I found that to be a really compelling story in each in each scenario.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

What uh what is the catalyst, not the catalyst, sorry, what what is the attribute, the characteristic, if there was one, in all three of the women, that allowed them to move from their flaws to something more virtuous?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Certainly something like humility, I think, um, potentially even better framed as a desire for the good, because even when they had those flaws and were acting within the flawed perspectives and understandings, they wanted them to be good. They painted them as good, they did have a desire to be good. And so when that was shown to them, demonstrated in very clear terms that it was not in fact good, they already had the desire to change.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

I that to me is such that is the essential ingredient to becoming a virtuous person, is loving the good. And we have actually talked about on the Lady K podcast the importance of character and how we nurture that, hopefully at home, done before the children even get to us. But then we really work to um uh really just nurture that, and that is through our history learning, through our books that we read. Um, a lot of these characters in in either the literary works or in history emulate, you know, what does it mean to be good, to be virtuous. But on the other side, we we have characters that are, you know, they're not. They're not, they they have they have a vice that perhaps uh I will give you a quick example. We talked about this recently in one of our other podcasts about Benjamin Franklin, and he was obviously he was a virtuous young man, but he encountered a ship captain who was uh had nefarious intent. And the friends around him could sense that, but he couldn't because he was so enraptured with the uh the idea of sailing on a ship to Spain and meeting the king and queen, and he was just sort of enthralled with that, and that overshadowed his good judgment. Um, and so while he was a good lad, um he did not quite see that. All that to say, the students, when I was reading this to them, we closed the book and they said, Why? And the ship captain was supposed to capture Benjamin and take him on the ship. That was the intent of the captain. And the kids, after we closed that, they said, Why would an adult want to hurt a child? And these were nine-year-olds. And that was a moment where we said, Well, obviously, the majority of the people surrounding you are good people, but occasionally you will cross paths with someone who has ill intent. And it's important for us to discern that. But if the child loves good, if they are attracted to what is good, that to me is their anchor. And they're gonna be able to withstand temptations or or harmful, you know, wins that come into their experience. And I think in all three of your categories, you were talking about um the women had that that foundation of love of good that really allowed them to make that course change, that course correction. I'm curious. As you were writing the this thesis, did you ever see yourself as one of the potential characters? And if so, which character and perhaps what relationship?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Specifically, I've considered before and written before about my similarities to Eleanor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Okay. She wasn't even one of the main characters I was focusing on, but a big tension in that book is this idea of how do we view emotions, how do we use emotions, where is their place in how we ought to act. And that's something that has been developing for me, and I think will continue to develop. But I thought emotions were truth. No, no, unfortunately not. Um, there have been at least two moments this year, I think, where I've had not a specific character parallel, but that moment that all three of the women experience of, oh, I was wrong. Specifically brought to me by a relationship in my life who was caring enough to point out where he thought I was going wrong. And it was a really powerful moment for me to see that and be like, oh, I've read this, I've talked about this, I know that I can turn around from this and make it better and become a better person because of it. It's very hopeful. It is. It's very compelling to watch them go through that because you see essentially their whole worldview crumble for a moment. Because oftentimes things that they thought of themselves as, they think they're good people, they think they're generous people, they think they're they have good judgment about other people, and they are given proof that that is wrong. And it's a very hard thing to go through and a very difficult thing to admit that they were wrong, and it's difficult to admit that you were wrong. It was difficult for me to admit that I was wrong, but it was a very important moment. Um, because it does lead to being better if you can accept that.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

And I would think too, it gives uh it illustrates the person who's coming to you cares enough, and it shows to you, hopefully, I assume it was a virtuous intent, and so that they um if it was a virtuous intent, that it maybe elevates them too in saying they really care about the individual.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

It does. One of the things I mention in my paper is in Emma, which is about Emma Woodhouse, young woman, she has a lot of status, she's very beautiful, she everyone loves her, and there's only one person in that book who cares to critique her. And some of the people who don't critique her do it because they don't see it. Her father loves her very much and he refuses to see anything wrong with her, which is endearing and it's sweet to see, but you can also see how it leads to some harmful views of herself and of the world around her. Um, and so the man she eventually ends up marrying is the only one who tells her, Emma, I think you were wrong. I think you need to change something. Um, and it is, I think, a true act of care and love to do that for somebody.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And great courage on the other person's part too, because they're doing it knowing that the person may not reciprocate, um, a sense of humility. And so it is a risk on both parts. But um, I think that obviously in in all three cases it was worth the risk. Um that's lovely. So I'm curious how you felt. So you've you've been here, gosh. As your pin indicates, we both have our pins on. This is our five-year pin. Um, Ellie got hers, was it last year, two years ago? Last year. Yeah. Well, you've been you got it last year, but I think it's in the seventh year, yeah. So throughout your education here, how do you feel like it has prepared you to actually tackle a thesis like this? I mean, this is this is a big chapter.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, it was a big project, and there were many ups and downs in the writing of it. I, when I talk about Lafayette Academy, I always, always, always go back to the teachers. I love the curriculum, I love the books, I love the systems. But for me and my family, the big thing has been the teachers who have been role models, who are passionate about what they're teaching, who want to share it, and who who love love seeing it in their students. So I think the big thing for me is I've always been encouraged to read more, to learn more, to think more, to write more in ways that have set me up to do a project of this size in both ability and skill and mental strength. And um, being able to deal with the moments where it was hard or where I wasn't sure if I was gonna finish it. Um, those scary moments of like, oh, I didn't plan this right.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah. So were there any specific classes, or would you just say as a whole, the teachers in general were the ones who are the catalyst to helping you um tackle this and and ultimately succeed at it?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I think as a whole, and it fits very well with my topic because they were a kind of relationship, not as reciprocal as the ideal virtuous relationship is, but I have learned a lot from my teachers, both them teaching me and me watching them as they go through life and as they handle things.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

That's a great point about teachers and the importance too of that relationship being a virtuous one, where they are truly there to seek um the best, the good in you and pull that out. And when there are little little rough edges that we need to, you know, smooth over, that they have they have the grace um and the humility because it's it's a risk on teachers' part too. They don't, they want to be, of course, loved, but that's not the ultimate, you know, goal for them. The ultimate goal is to bring out the best in the student. And I have found that there are teachers, I even had them in school, where they weren't interested in that goal. They were interested in just being loved. And so they were weak in other areas. And as a student, I don't know about you, but I remember sensing that even as young as nine years old. I knew I was being bribed, or I knew I was the the teacher didn't have ultimate control or whatever it was. And um, I think you can sense that a very young age, although I couldn't articulate it at the time. But I'm glad that you have found our teachers to be ones that are seeking the ultimate good for you. How are you different if you are different than now than when you started the thesis? Maybe how you think, how you would approach a project like this. Anything different?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

It's struck me how different. This is a little different than our previous talks, but it struck me how different writing a paper of this size was compared to the papers I've normally written. The amount of content you need is both more and less than I originally thought. How so? One of the things that I ran into when I was initially brainstorming outlining was trying to put too much in, I think. There, you still need a very narrow focus to actually make claims and write something and give evidence about something. It just needs to have more content as well than a paper of the size I would normally write. But I was expecting, I didn't realize how much space you really need to really dive into a book completely and not just look at a sliver of a topic in it. Um, which has been really interesting to think about with the books we read, because it's like Aristotle did need a whole book to discuss this and really more. So that has definitely been interesting to think about what kind of space you need to develop ideas and how much you can develop ideas in a given space.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

I'm sure that will be a skill you'll use for a very long time as you head into your next chapter, whatever that is. And is there anything that caused you to think differently, perhaps about the future relationships that you will have? Did anything change or are you gonna approach relationships any differently because of this um exercise you've gone through?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

I think for me, my personal goal coming out of this is to be able to have those moments of realizing I was wrong or I did something wrong and have someone approach me with it and be able to react well. Because I focus in the paper where I talk about the impact of their relationships on the heroines, but in the end it does have to come from them. No one can make you be better, you have to choose that for yourself. And so, as far as personal lessons go, I think the big one is really being conscious of those moments and attempting to react to them well, which is with humility and with a desire to improve. I was gonna ask you, how is that?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

And so you already answered that. I I would agree, and I think um wouldn't it be lovely if all adults read Aristotle? And uh it would be a good, maybe it's something we should make required reading for families, for teachers, for everyone. If a younger student is listening to this, um, what would you want them to pull out as an understanding of friendships, relationships that perhaps you didn't fully grasp before writing this, or or what do you think tip-wise would be helpful to them if they're nine or twelve years old? What could be helpful?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

I think it is important both to recognize that other people will influence you. This is something we talked about when reading this section, Aristotle, is that you can sometimes have this inclination to say, Oh, I I'm not gonna be like those people. But if you spend enough time around certain types of people, it's very hard to not learn from them in some capacity. And vice versa, you want to make sure that you are able to give a good role model, be a good support system for your friends and the people you're close to, and give them what you think is right. And so, especially for a younger crowd, the big thing is gonna be learning to say someone did something wrong because it is very scary. And as you pointed out earlier, it's a risk to tell someone you care about, I think you were wrong, because they can react very badly. But it's something that gets easier the more you do it and will ultimately be for the better.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I would agree. It is something it's it's important to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. They're gonna happen in life, and and I do agree, the more you do it, the easier it gets. It never gets fun, but it does get a little easier.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

I would also caution, um, you'll hear this message, and sometimes I think it can be interpreted as tell people that they did things wrong. Yeah. Which is true, but you need to make sure you're doing it with the right intention. Your intention should not be to tear someone down or make them feel bad. Your intention should be to help them grow. And even just going in with that different intention will change your tone, will change how you say it, will change when you say it, and I think will greatly affect uh the results of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

That cannot be faked. It is truly felt. Um, those undercurrents are are very subtle, but they're very important. I would agree with you. Before we before we wrap up, I had a question. As I was enjoying reading through and thinking more deeply about your thesis, you had mentioned the idea, as does Aristotle, and maybe that's where you brought it in from, of the idea of um our virtues that have that a pure virtue is perfectly balanced, but there can always be a deficiency or an excess to that virtue. And and that takes discernment in order to know where you are on that scale. And it can be somewhat subjective, maybe, depending on the student or the person, I should say. So, for example, fortitude, what would you say is the the excess and the deficiency to fortitude?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

So, fortitude, and most of this is from Aristotle's Nicodegean ethics. That's where a lot of my views on this have been drawn. Okay. So loosely citing that fortitude tends to be dealing with fear and dealing with dangerous situations. Or since we in our modern world typically do not experience many physically dangerous situations, you can say scary situations, situations that involve overcoming anxiety or um general fear. So fortitude is knowing when to overcome those situations and when to back off. Because, and you can take a more simplified example, if you are a soldier, it is very brave. Point blank, it is brave to go charge into battle. But it is not necessarily always fortitude in the most strict sense, because it can be unwise to go into battle if you are not adequately prepared, if the odds aren't with you, if there are other factors outside of it. And so you always have to be weighing: is this a good use of bravery?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

And how do you discern that?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

This comes down to um what is called the problem of prudence, where it's by being prudent, and it's the answer is kind of just you know through experience, through learning from other people, but there's not any clear formula for how to become prudent. It's what ultimately your values are and what you think is worth doing.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

So, so it sounds like there is some subjectivity when it comes to these virtues. Temperance is another good one. We were talking about that earlier before we started the podcast. When you have um an excess of temperance, you might be overly restrictive of yourself. Maybe you don't share any feelings whatsoever. Um, and you might become uh just just completely reserved, which doesn't necessarily help a situation if you need to be transparent or you know communicative. The other side, the deficiency could be that you're very maybe gluttonous when it comes to let's just say eating. Temperance is a good example. So if you if you eat too much or you eat too little, you're it's not good, right? Either way, but the more balanced approach, the middle of temperance would be balance, would be so, but you made a good example, I think, in terms of like an adult versus a baby. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

You need different amounts of food, you need different kinds of food. So you can't just say temperance is this amount of food of this kind for every person all the time. Yeah. And so then that goes back to prudence. It does.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Um okay, well, it's great. It's it's such good thinking. So I have one final question for you. If you could sit down to dinner with any one of your characters from your thesis, um, or even the author, which one would you choose and why?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I would really like to talk to Aristotle.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Um, even though it's been his writing was not necessarily the focus of the paper, it was the foundation for a lot of it. And he as a person fascinates me because he wrote so much, and we don't even think we have a great part of the writings he did, and he was incredibly curious about the world, and I would love to attempt to understand what kind of mind looks at plants and is able to make a theological system and a morality system out of that. And his his thinkings were very fundamental to a lot of Western values and a lot of our current life, and I would love to talk to him and just get a feel for what kind of person does that. Because I don't think it's most people. I don't think most people ask those questions or try to come to those conclusions. And he wasn't religious, was he? Or was he? He do you know much? I do not. He definitely he had religious writings, so he definitely had a religious, religious beliefs of some kind. I don't know what they were necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Okay. I need to do more research on that myself. Thank you truly for doing your thesis based on this subject matter. I think it was so well received from our audience that was there. And um, this is exactly why our senior thesis matters. It's not just about reading great books, it's not just about writing well, um, although clearly you've done both, but it is about coming to see what is true and then allowing that truth to shape who you become. And I think you've done a great job. To me, that is really the purpose of education is pursuing what is good, what is true, the true principles behind it. And of course, that is beautiful. And then allowing those ideas to shape who you become. And as we've learned from Aristotle, and then of course, through all of humanity and now in your own experience, there are certain principles that will bring out the highest and best good of yourself and out of a scenario. But when we implement those principles, we can expect to get a good result. And that is a beautiful thing. So today you've heard exactly why this senior thesis matters. It's not just about reading good books and writing well, although clearly you have done both, um, but it's about coming to see what is true or that somethingness that is true. It's pursuing the truth that ends up shaping who we are. And that to me is what true education is all about. It is pursuing what is true, what is the principle of the thing, what is good. And of course, that result is beautiful. And in the end, it ends up shaping us into the best version of ourselves. And I look forward to um seeing how this topic, it has definitely impacted me. I have loved learning through your eyes these beautiful truths that are throughout these books. Um, and I look forward to seeing how this shapes your life and it continues to shape your experience. And and of course, we have been greatly blessed as a school because of who you are, what you bring to the table. And of course, we didn't even talk about the shooting team, but your great um contribution to the shooting team. Um, so all of those who you touch in your in your future will be greatly blessed because of the framework from which you think and act. And I thank you for that. So thanks for joining us. Thank you. And thank you for joining us on the Lady K podcast. We look forward to seeing you at the next episode. And until then, have a great day.