Traditionally Self-Published with Mica Merrill Rice

Blurring the Lines: Crafting Truth Through Fiction

• Mica Merrill Rice • Season 1 • Episode 9

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“Every single word has to earn its place.” - Jayne Marshall

In this episode, literary fiction author and developmental editor Jayne Marshall joins me again to talk about crafting literary fiction and how to blend fact with fiction in an engaging way. 

In this conversation, we dive into:

  • Her latest release, A Line Drawn or Printed: Six Routes Through Madrid, a literary fiction.
  • How she crafts a story blending fact and fiction without losing her authorial voice
  • Her advice for making sure every word and every character count.
  • Her best tips for authors on writing literary fiction

About Jayne:

Jayne Marshall is an author and a developmental editor at Modern Odyssey Books. Her latest book, A Line Drawn or Printed: Six Routes Through Madrid, can be found at all fine retailers. She currently resides in Spain.

You can also follow her by visiting one of her sites below:

Have a publishing question? Email me at mica@micamerrillrice.com

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Website: micamerrillrice.com

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"Traditionally Self-Published" theme music is written by Landon Bailey and performed and produced by LNDÖ


SPEAKER_01:

What's up, plot twisters, and a warm welcome to my page turner, the intrigued readers and listeners who are just stepping into the story. Whatever title you fancy they, I am so happy you're here with us. You're listening to Traditionally Self-Published, where we unravel the chaos of self-publishing and help you write your own success story like a pro. I'm your host, Mika Merrill Rice, author with a passion for learning and sharing the love. I'm bringing you real talk with publishing pros and indie authors just like me who flipped the script and built thriving author careers on their own terms and are doing it like a pro. So whether you're a first-time author or you're a seasoned pro, you're right where you need to be. Alright, today we're talking with a seasoned author about her new book and what it takes to craft the perfect literary fiction. If you've ever wondered what it takes to bring prose to life, this episode is for you. I am joined again today by Jane Marshall, a developmental editor for Modern Odyssey Books, and she's also the author of A Line Drawn or Printed, Six Routes Through Madrid, a literary fiction book. So today we're going to talk about crafting literary fiction, blending fact and fiction, balancing prose and plot, and then we're going to conclude with the Ink Starter Lightning Round and Jane's five best tips for authors. So welcome back, Jane. It's such a pleasure to have you back with us.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for having me back.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely. I could not pass this up. So today, instead of talking about editing, we're going to talk about your newest book. Again, that's a line drawn or printed, Six Routes Through Madrid. This is a literary fiction. And I my first question for you is what drew you to literary fiction as your primary form of storytelling?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think probably like a lot of authors, simply because that's what I'd always read from a very young age. And also my sister, who's three years older than me, she studied English literature at university. So when she went off to university, she used to send me the books that uh she had on her reading list. Once she'd finished with them, she'd post them to me because this was the 90s. And uh so I just started from a young age reading like stuff probably yeah, you would normally encounter till a bit later, like postmodernism, post-colonial fiction. And I was discovering all these authors that weren't in the local library. So yeah, when I came to writing um or experimenting with writing, I think that's just kind of a natural jumping off point for most writers that you start with what you know and what you enjoy, and then from there you can experiment with other genres later on, which which I I did and I think we're gonna get into later. Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. Uh how do you think literary fiction differs in its demands on both a reader and a writer compared to like genre fiction?

SPEAKER_02:

I I really think that's a great question because I think it's good to emphasize that full writing is difficult. But in in the sense of that, as you know, it do it places a lot of demands on mind and spirit and emotions and intelligence. Uh, and so I think that's present across all writing and it just varies according to the kind of writing that you're doing. Um, I was thinking about this because one thing that would absolutely terrify me would be to try and write a children's story, because I think that must be really, really difficult thinking of my eight-year-old niece. She is a tough crowd, and even though, say maybe you're you're talking about a 500-word manuscript versus 80,000 words, that that would still absolutely terrify me. So I just think it's just different demands um according to to the genre, but it's it's all hard work, hard but rewarding.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, definitely. It's so funny you say that because I think every writer dreads writing something shorter than the actual manuscript. From um, I would never also write a children's book. I think it would be way too difficult. But I also have a tough time with blurbs. I'm like, why can I write like 80,000 words that I can't write this, like, you know, 300-word blurb for the back of the book?

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, that's a really good example, actually. Yeah, because that's more like sales copy, isn't it? And that's that's always hard for writers, I think. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So in the book, you talk about some deeply personal themes like love and loss. Um, you talk about uh love and loss from not just from a love perspective, like you know, relationship, but also family. And so how did you decide how much you were going to reveal and how much you wanted to keep private?

SPEAKER_02:

I I try to stick to um the maxim of Lucia Berlin's where she talks about writing emotional truths, uh, which is kind of self-explanatory. But um, for me, that kind of manifests as a test that I give myself. So once I've written something that, as you say, is quite personal, I kind of try and step back and ask myself, almost set like my ask myself, ask my writing self, um, if if that feels authentic to me and if it and authentic to what I'm trying to express and to to anybody uh reading it. So if it passes that test, um then I leave it in. But I do also, as I just mentioned, feel some separation. Um, so even if something is very personal, and even if, say, I'm writing about it like practically word for word or verbatim to how it how it happened, and there's no fictionalizing, it still in some way feels like an account, like I'm reporting on my on my own life, if that makes sense. So, and it's funny because this question really did make me think about that process, and I think it's is important to me to have some distance. So, although it is very personal and it's very authentic, and the emotional truth is there, there's still something that's left over that's just mine and a bit more private. So, I think that that kind of separation helps um me decide as well, kind of how far to take it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, it was beautifully done. I I really enjoyed it. So, the book, of course, um it's the six routes through Madrid. So, Spain, what role did Spain, both its culture and landscape, play as almost a character in your book? Because it's a pretty important part of the plot behind it.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And moving to Madrid with without a doubt was was my I think my catalyst to start writing, although I had written in the past up and my it was like suddenly I'd found um the prism through which to examine these topics that I'd always been interested in, just in general, but also as a reader. So, like identity, belonging, and then also language and identity, what happens when you sort of move not only country but into a second language as well. So all that had still always interested me in the UK, but but then coming here and having this backdrop of the unfamiliar, this foreign place, that that was like where I could find my my incision point into this kind of big topic. So in that way, I think um Spain and Madrid are well that one word that came to mind was like a winged man in a way. So, like, you know, she's there or wing woman, she's kind of there, um just helping me out with uh with these big topics. But although maybe a better way to put it is she is like more of a character, as you say. So in that way, more of like a person in the sense of someone to bounce things off, reflect back to me these these ideas of identity and who are you in this new place after you decide to uproot yourself and then replant yourself, and how much of you actually changes or how much of you actually is just who you are, and that's who you are no matter where you are in the world. So I think Madrid, she's like the she is a character in the sense that she allows me to bounce those questions off the city, of the place, and you make me reflect on on them with that kind of yeah, background. That was a bit complicated.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I love it. It just totally makes sense, especially when you when you read the book. Um because you're you're you are going through these different points and these different intersections and even different experiences, like you know, the the summers, uh the parties in the summer, and you know, your experience with that and what's kind of going on in the background, you know, in the city around you, while this, you know, without spoiling it, but without you know, this uh experience that you're having with someone. So um very well done. So let's talk about those lines between fact and fiction. Um, I think when people read your book, they probably assume that the entire thing is completely nonfiction. Um but like we mentioned, and like you said earlier, you sort of draw this line between the two. I don't know if that's where the title came into play, by the way, but I I think it was played very well because there is it's either you know, like a line that you you've drawn in real life or just kind of print it out. Um, but you're you're yeah, that's that was it. You're right. Okay, good. Because I was like, wow, that title is like perfect. Um your book weaves together these essays and fiction together. So, how did you decide where to stay true again to that lived experience and where to fictionalize it?

SPEAKER_02:

I kind of want to say it wasn't a decision in a way, um or not uh an exactly conscious one because and it comes back again to like Lucia Boleyn and her idea of emotional truth. Uh so in that way, I'm always I will always follow the story over the over the facts such as they are. Um, because well, I think we've just we discussed this at uh in another event, but um, you know, how much can you say something is objectively true anyway, especially if you have like different perspectives on it and um people live it differently. Like the quote actually that I'm going to share later is literally just an account of some friends eating eating ice cream. But I know that if I asked those two friends who do exist, like what was your experience of that, they would come up with complete something completely different. They might not even remember in the first place. So uh so for me, I think the story is always going to be more important over like the hard, cold facts. Um but I mentioned earlier about also experimenting with uh genres and things, and and I remember when I discovered creative nonfiction, because up until then I had been writing what I would just blanketly call fiction, but was very much closely based on my life and my experiences. And then I kind of discovered this creative nonfiction felt to me like a middle way in a sense. But then I thought, well, hang on, no, it's still non-fiction. So, you know, I'm not an expert in in anything. I can't write non-fiction, whether it's creative or or not. And then from there I realized, well, the only thing I can be an expert in is like my own life. So I can have authority over my thoughts and my feelings because they're mine. So I can talk about those with authority, but the rest I I always want to leave to to the reader to to draw their own conclusions about. So that was a long way around of saying I try to stay true to my truths and like what to me is the emotional truth of a story, but everything else is up for grabs, basically.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. Yeah, totally. I I get it. And it's um, it just worked out. I like I said, I I I don't I think when I read it, and I I like I said, I think a lot of readers that I've spoken to who have read this book as well, we all kind of say the same thing. It doesn't really matter that it that we're trying to, you know, it doesn't, it's not like we're sitting there with a microscope going, did this really happen to Jane? Did it not happen to Jane? It's just beautiful the way it's written and it feels authentic. Um but I think we look for that too in fiction in some, at least some of us, maybe not like sci-fi or fantasy, but when you're reading like uh literary fiction or even um even thrillers, you're looking for some kind of like I don't know, like it has to feel real in a way, you know, those emotions have to feel real in a way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like you said, authenticity, I think is the word, isn't it? And and as long as that kind of truth is there, you kind of will go with the with with the story.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, for sure. What are the risks and rewards of blending fact and fiction, do you think?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I um I think you have more freedom to invent, of course, with fiction, but but then you also have have a frame. This is the way I see it anyway. So although I'm kind of using the word facts lightly, but uh but you know, you do have kind of a framework of of uh of fact or something that actually happened, and then within that like perimeter, that useful limit of of the real, then you can just go mad and invent stuff. So for me, it's like the perfect combination of uh giving, yeah, giving you a limit so that you you have that incision point like I was talking about earlier, but then once you're in there, you can sort of do what you like with the rest, which is fun. I I I like that way of writing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. And do you see this hybrid form as becoming more common or appealing for writers?

SPEAKER_02:

That's a really interesting question and a big topic in in writing and and publishing, as I'm sure listeners will will know with the uh sort of recent um controversies around like the salt path and that kind of thing. Well, although that was obviously the controversy there was that it was told readers were told it was one thing and then it wasn't necessarily. So I think that kind of gets to the the center of that question in a way, that's how you set up those expectations with readers. So I think people, readers probably maybe like do like this hybrid form, as you say, for the authenticity, but you do have to kind of have be honest with your reader and set up those expectations. So they know that it's a blend, they know that it's hybrid, they know that's you know, yeah, that it's a mixture of fact and fiction, but but as long as they know that when they're reading, and like we know this is readers too, then then that informs the journey that they go on. So if you don't sort of first have that conversation with them, well that conversation in the loose sense, they uh you know it changes the experience, and I think that's when readers could feel a bit deceived. So I think it's yes popular, but you just have to be kind of upfront about how much is true and how much isn't, or at least that there's a mixture.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. No, I think uh I think you set it up pretty well and it was it was clear. But again, I think, you know, just going back to what I said earlier, I think even though we know it's it's fact and it's fiction, we still, I mean, I don't know, it just felt so real. I don't know how to describe it without telling people, just go read it, you'll see what I mean. But that's great. I'm glad to hear that for sure. Well, let's um let's move to prose and style. So readers often describe literary fiction as lyrical or poetic, but how do you approach prose that's beautiful but not like overwrought?

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. Yeah, I think it's partly taste, I think, because um I'm a member of some book clubs, so as a reader, I notice things that for me are are a bit overdone, other people enjoy. So I guess there's there's always um horses for courses, but uh um for me, yeah, it's definitely a fine balance. Like one thing that comes to mind is I I really like a good simile. But if you put if the writer puts too many in, like especially on the same page, and then I get really irritated. Like if everything else is like something else, then what is actually happening here? And I think they they're very beautifully when they're well done, but overused. Yeah, as a as a reader, I get really irritated. So um that's well, that's one thing that always jumps out at me. But I do have a few more techniques as well, if uh if you want me to go on.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, definitely. We definitely want to know like the techniques that you use to polish your sentences without using that clarity. Because I know I am definitely guilty of this. You will find out soon enough, I'm sure. But um I uh I know what you mean about like the simile usage. Um, it can get overused, um, but it's easy, but there's got to be a better way to do it. So, what is your like, you know, your go-to, or what is your advice for that?

SPEAKER_02:

I used to have above above my desk, it I should put it back up because it just fell down. But it basically was a quote from uh Maggie Nelson that said, wash it clean. And that's always what I kind of have in my mind. So yeah, basically remove anything that is superfluous, or another quote which was from somebody else who has name I can't remember, is uh remove anything that isn't useful or beautiful. So anything that yeah, that isn't uh doing work in in the narrative or is beautiful in its own right. So I have both of those things in my mind all the time, but um, but it's really interesting what you say about clarity because uh maybe I take that too much to heart because a piece of feedback I often get on on early drafts is that I'm there isn't enough detail. So I've like washed it too clean. And yeah, you can prune something back and prune it and prune it, it ends up just not really making any sense and and confusing the reader. So so I do try and yeah, wash it clean, but now I have to also add to that don't confuse people. So yeah, I have to keep both of those in mind. But um and similes, yeah. Similes I just try and avoid if I can because they're too tempting. They're extremely tempting.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness. All right, well, how do you handle pacing in a book where theme and reflection are just as important as the plot?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's a really big one. Um, I'm not sure I do handle it very well, to be honest. Um, I feel like plot always suffers um over theme for me. Yeah, it's uh it's a tricky one. Um I think what I try and do is just uh make sure there is a journey there. So even if it's very subtle, very subtle, very small, like there's still some movement from from A to B. So something has changed from the beginning to the end. Um so yeah, that's actually something I also I definitely have to also be aware of because yeah, for me it's easier to just go off into a little like identity rabbit hole in there and forget that there actually needs to be a plot there. So yeah, I'm not sure I do handle it, but I um I handle it by trying to be aware of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness. Well, you did great. I I wouldn't even know that that was even a struggle. So I'll do which writers or books do you think have influenced your voice the most?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's like the best question and the worst question, I think, isn't it, for a writer? But I am thinking about it, I I think I'm a bit of a magpie, especially since I've been living in in Spain, it's a little bit harder to get hold of books in English, so I'll just kind of take anything that's available. And that was good because it's kind of expanded my reading experiences. And and in that way, I think I'm a bit sort of a magpie. So I'll, you know, there's things that I'll kind of take on board because I'm reading from different places, but I do think probably my it was that's my sister sending me her reading list when I was like just 15 or 14. Uh, and I think reading all of that post-modern and post-colonial fiction, I think that's where that had the biggest influence, influence on me in terms of like themes again, back to identity and language and everything. Um, I think that's where that began and it stayed with me. Uh, but after that, then when I discovered multilingual writers like uh Lucia Berlin, who I mentioned earlier, they her and people like writers like her really showed me what you can do on a line level with language, which is just that little bit unexpected or outside of the norm of somebody that maybe only writes in one language. Um so those two come those two were definitely like the big influences, I think. Like the yeah, the identity themes and then the language, the multilingual writers.

SPEAKER_01:

Very nice. All right, so let's come back to the editor's desk for a minute. So, as a developmental editor, how does your editing work influence your writing?

SPEAKER_02:

I do think working as an editor means that I'm stricter with my with my own writing. Like I have no problem killing my darlings. Like that's not just not an issue for me. In fact, like I said before, I often kill too many of them and then had to add some back ins. But that does not pain me in any way. And I think um I think that's partly to do with working as an editor as well. And before working with Modern Odyssey, I was working at um a big Spanish publisher, which mainly published educational material. So that also really taught me so much. Like, although the actual material wasn't particularly particularly literary, that's hard to say. It taught me so much about precision, uh, especially on a line level. So that in those books, in that educational material, every single word had to earn its place, but it also had to be perfectly like clear and crisp what it was saying. So I really took that, I I noticed that I started to take that forward into my own writing as well, when I would be sort of editing and thinking, hang on a minute, is that is this sentence actually you know clear? And do I really need this and do I really need that? So that really helped, I think. Uh well, I hope so. No, I love that. And I think then working with monodyssey gave me like a nice complimentary skill. And you've spoken with Maria, and she's very much into the idea of letting stories surface in in whatever way they want to surface, which is really beautiful. And I think before working with Maria, I was a bit stricter in in that sense of I wanted to kind of kind of put the story into a box in a way, I guess. So so now working with her, uh I realize I can I can let stories just unfold. So I think that's two nice kind of lessons that I've had. Like one, be strict on the line level, but also let the story kind of do its thing as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I love that line you used. Every word has to earn its place in your book. That's excellent. Um, gonna that is gonna be the thing that I put on my corkboard in the back. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. Very nicely done. All right. What mistakes do you see writers making when they're tackling literary fiction?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's um that's a good one. I think probably back to the overwriting a little bit, um, and going too too head-on into reflection and and the theme and and making sure that's I mean, this isn't everyone, obviously. This is just yeah, something I've noticed. Um, and I don't want to say that I don't do it either, like we we all have our weak spots, but um yeah, so like the theme and reflection has to be very finely balanced with story, so i.e. plot. And like I said, this is something I have to be aware of as well. So that you might have something that's very beautiful on a line-by-line level, but it does have to have this nice supporting like scaffold there. So there needs to be, there needs to be a journey and it needs to be kind of hemmed in in a sense, in a sense that yeah, there's a there's a departure point and an ending point. So I think maybe especially with newer writers, as you're kind of experimenting with your voice, and it's fun to just kind of keep writing and thinking and exploring, and that is great. But and maybe some people would like to read that. I suppose it's kind of stream of consciousness, but yeah, for me, you also need um structure around that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree. And um, all right, so what advice would you give to indie authors who want to experiment with a hybrid storytelling?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's a good question too. Um I think maybe back to letting the story unfold as it as it wants to a little bit, just try and clear your mind of any ideas, any preconceptions, and then just start writing. So let the story be what it wants to be, and then you can go back and and give it this structure that I mentioned. So that kind of balance between experimental but but but thoughtfully done. So yeah, I think just go for it, write, write in whatever way the story wants to be written, and then and then but then go back and and add in that that scaffolding. And kill all your darlings. And kill yeah, not too many.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, not too many.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I have been dying to ask you this question. You're an editor. Does the editor need an editor?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, yes, absolutely, no doubt about it. And I'm glad you asked. Um, yes, we we all need these distant eyes on our work. Um, and for me, it's like therapists need therapists, it's the same thing, absolutely the same thing. There's just so you know, we there's so much, only so much that you can see in your own work. But um, and I think, yeah, if you do work as an editor, hopefully you probably have a slightly wider vision in that sense, but you still do need somebody outside of the the work to come in and go, hang on a minute, it's this here, get rid of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Very good. I I love that you are uh uh you also um you are freely admitting that you need an editor, everybody needs an editor. And I've said this and from the beginning, I think editing is if you're gonna spend money anywhere, it would be this. Um I think it's the most important part of the whole piece because you can have a beautiful cover, you can nail your blurb on the back, but if the inside of your book uh isn't properly edited, it's gonna fall flat for readers.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I do agree, and not just because I am an editor. Yeah, you don't yeah, you do all of that work and then you don't want to your reader to open up the book all excitedly and then kind of yeah, be pulled out because there is just like stuff that could have been easily fixed if somebody else had seen it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, totally agree. All right, the ever-popular Ink Starter Lightning Round Jane. Here we go. All right. First question favorite Spanish word or phrase you picked up since moving?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, such a lot to choose from. Um I'm gonna go with uh the word ganas, which is actually you don't kind of use it on its own, you usually use it within a phrase, but it's basically like the same in English as, you know, do you feel like doing something? Do you fancy doing something? You would say, Do you have ganas for this? And it's just so useful in so many contexts, and it's so much shorter than saying it in English, to the point that sometimes now I just I get lazy and I just insert it into English anyway, and just say, Oh, do you want to have you have you got Ganners to see a film tonight? People like, well. It's just for me, it's just such a great useful word. I'm sorry, I'm not very good at lightning round because I just taught too much.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh no, you're fine. Oh my gosh, you're fine. All right, a book that changed your perspective on life or writing.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh well, if I'm such a boy, I always make reference to Nabakov, but um, he deserves to be referred to in in my own personal literary pantheon because when I when I discovered him, I just never read anyone who wrote like that. And he really showed me this kind of this phrase I keep seeing around lately about say it wrong to say it right. So his it wasn't that his English was incorrect. Um Lolita was the first novel that he wrote originally in English, and that was the one that I discovered him through. So he wasn't incorrect, um, but it was just unusual, and and then coupled with his talent as a storyteller was just a really arresting combination. And I remember lending it to a friend actually, you know, doing that thing where you're like, you have to read this, you have to read this. And I was with him when he finished it, and he just closed the book and he just was like, Why would anyone ever write another novel again? I think that kind of summed it up for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Very nice. All right, red sangria or white wine chain.

SPEAKER_02:

This is an easy word, white wine.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, favorite quote from your own book. I've I've before you even answer, okay, I want you to know that I have about 10 quotes that I love from your book, but I would love to know yours. Do you have one that you just wrote and you're like, ah, that's it?

SPEAKER_02:

It's so hard because um uh yeah, it probably changes like hour on hour, minute on minute. Um thank you for having multiple. Uh the one I decided to go with was because I've got summer holidays on my mind today, because I'm about to take my summer holiday. And also I've been thinking a lot about writing in place because I'm setting up an event about that in Madrid. So I've got those two things on my mind. So I have one that I picked out, which is basically about like going out for an ice cream on a hot summer's night. Did you want me to read it or do I Yes? Go ahead. I was like, hang on, do I just choose it or do I read it? Okay, so I'll I'll read it. Natalia, Audrey, and I stand in Plata Chueca, like one of those bad jokes. A Venezuelan born in Argentina, a French Canadian, and me. The ice cream is cold and soft and sweet. I see some people I know and raise a sticky hand in greeting. When I get home a few hours later, the cat is waiting for me, having, for reasons known only to himself, forsaken his own evening passeo. I get into bed, a slight breeze cuts through the heat every now and then. He curls up in the crook of my legs, and we stay that way until morning.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it. And if somebody can't pick up the book after that, I don't know. I'm just not sure about that. Yes, it's the way you bring it all to life, I think, was the best part for me in your book, is just the the way you describe things. It just, I don't know. It just works. So I love your quote that you picked out. Thank you so much. Of course. And then, all right, one last one. One writing rule that you'd break anytime for the love of the story.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, I'm a fan of breaking the rules, I think, in general, but I think I'll go back to that one. Um say it wrong to say it right. So I would break I would break the rule of making sure everything is uh technically correct. Break that rule in order to say something in a more beautiful, interesting way. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. All right, and your five best tips for writing literary fiction.

SPEAKER_02:

This was much harder than the five tips for writing. Oh, sorry, editing, actually. So I'm not sure what's says about me. And some of them might overlap, actually. But um, these are the ones that immediately came to mind. So not sexy at all, but lists are very useful. So depending on how long the pieces that you're you're sitting down to write, um, make an outline before you start, even if you don't stick to it. Uh, and even if it's a longer, like a novel, like make a spreadsheet. I'm gonna, you know, do it. You don't have to stick to it, but it gives you, you know, you have that lovely, you know, that lovely tingling of a new idea that just won't leave you alone. And I think it's good to follow that, but also before maybe you really start writing, just think about okay, I need I need my themes, and but I need a story as well. So just have a little think about that. So, yeah, lists is number one or plans. Um, number two would be uh it's kind of a little bit related, slash in opposition to the first one, like but definitely just write, right, right, right, right. Um even if you never look at that list again, you've done the groundwork. So when you come to write, you can write with no censorship and then come back and edit it later. So just write without censoring yourself. Um, but then when you do come to edit, be rigorous. And I would say ask yourself, and this is what I do for sure, over and over again, like every five minutes, what is this about? What am I trying to say? And why should people care about it? I think people call it the so what test. So just keep asking yourself like why, why, why, why? Um number four is once I have a good draft, uh like a good solid draft, I will print it out and I'll I feel like I might mention this one in the editing round. But uh, you know, there's there's it's worth saying again. Uh so I print it out and I do two edits. So one and then with different color pens. So one's uh for themes and plot. So that's like the horizontal, your plot, and the vertical your themes. Um so I do that edit, and then after that I go line by line, uh word by word, like I mentioned earlier. Like, is this word pulling its way? And anything that makes me cringe, even like five percent, it's gotta go. So any cringe is out. And then the last one would be when you are looking at the line by line level. Um it was five tips. Yes, okay, good. Um, when you're looking at line by line level, always look at opportunities where you can say something just a little bit differently. Uh so I was thinking about, I don't know if you remember one of the stories in my book, it just starts with, so anyway. And I picked that up from another writer who not that exact phrase, but uh who started their stories just with like kind of a weird construction or like grammatically a bit off, but it just was so much more interesting than so I was in a house in the mountains and then blah blah blah. So I don't know, just for me, I like I that kind of thing of appeals as a reader, but also as a writer. So just to look for where you can just change up a little bit, you know. It's it's good that you're clear about what you're saying and you're you're placing the reader in the story, but can you do that a slightly more interesting way? Smile.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. I love it. I am gonna take some of these. I'm gonna put your quote on my corkboard. I've had so much fun with you today. So a line drawn or printed Six Routes Through Madrid by my friend Jane Marshall. Where can listeners find your book?

SPEAKER_02:

In the bookshop. Uh so go into your local bookshop and ask for it, they can get it for you. Um, or you can go to the Modern Odyssey website, which is modernodyssebooks.com, and that will take you through to places online where you can buy it as well.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. And if they're writers and they are interested in your freelance developmental editing, where can they connect with you?

SPEAKER_02:

Um thank you, Fraski. Uh, you can go to my website, janemarshall.com, and there's a contact form there where you can get in touch, and I'll be happy to speak to anybody. I love working with writers.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh, what is next for you as both a writer and an editor?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I was gonna say my holiday, who's the next thing in the career realm. Well, I do, I am working on two things simultaneously for writing. So something that in some ways would might be like the second volume after a line drawn or printed. Um, so like a really a related kind of um short novel. And on the other side, um I'm want to write a collection of short stories, but and I have the theme, but that's about all I've all I've got so far. So we'll see how that develops and editing. Um, I'm just about to finish up a big old manuscript for a client that's been great. I've been working on it all summer, so I've been immersed in this this world that this uh that the writer created. Um also have my holiday. So after that, after that, um we're going to be doing some events as well in Madrid. So a bit of a mixed bag once I get back off holiday. Sorry, I'm so obsessed with my holiday.

SPEAKER_01:

I would be obsessed with the holiday too. I hope you have so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me again, Jane. This has been a pleasure, and I look forward to speaking again with you soon.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks. Thank you for listening to this episode of Traditionally Self-Published. If this episode helped you, subscribe, leave a review, and share with your author and reader friends alike. And be sure to check the first episode where I share a bit about how this all can be and why building a helpful community is so important. Until next time, be bold, write smart, and turn those papers.