WHO REMEMBERS? The UK Nostalgia Podcast
Join amateur historians Andrew and Liam (thrice bronze medalists in 'The South Yorkshire Rememberers Chalice') as they take a trip back to life in Britain during the eighties, nineties and noughties to discuss the pop culture moments that defined a nation.
Do you remember when Del boy fell through the bar, when Marathon bars changed their name to Snickers or when Paul Sykes punched a shark? If so then come and remember with us. If not then stick around and we will remember for you. This is literally a no lose siduation (situation).
WHO REMEMBERS? The UK Nostalgia Podcast
Who Remembers........How The Sopranos Ended?
The cut to black heard around the world still sparks passionate debate among television fans almost two decades later. What really happened to Tony Soprano in that diner? Was the controversial ending a stroke of genius or a frustrating cop-out?
We take you on a nostalgic journey through HBO's groundbreaking crime drama, focusing specifically on that infamous final scene. From the complex relationship between the New Jersey and New York crime families to the psychological evolution of Tony Soprano himself, we unpack the rich tapestry of characters and conflicts that made this show revolutionary.
Whether you interpret the blackout as Tony's death or just another moment in his complicated life, one thing remains certain - no television ending has generated such intense speculation and analysis. Join us as we remember not just how The Sopranos ended, but why it continues to fascinate us years later.
Hello and welcome to who Remembers. This is a UK Nostalgia podcast and today we are asking who Remembers how the Sopranos Ended their C5, Britain's first mass-produced electrical car, and something called the Internet Stop shouting. That's good, but none of the locals got paddling. Yeah, that's for me. No bottleless kids. I can't speak, you can't win anything with kids. Pac-man one of the superstar video games in the business. Did you threaten to overrule me? If fool me can't get fooled again.
Speaker 2:Remember when it's the lowest form of conversation. Hello, so yeah, this is the it's who Remembers the Sopranos, but that seemed too big a subject. So it's who Remembers how the Sopranos Ended.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You. Well, let's give it a tiny bit of background before we go into it. Um, as ever, it's very much live research. It's on the go. We both watched it in the day, but I don't know if you were kind of quite as obsessed with it as I was on its first screen. And is that fair to say?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I used to watch. It used to be on channel four didn night yeah. Yeah, quite late on at night as well. I did watch it every week, I have to admit, and it sort of. When it finished I got into it after and I'm still not that clued up on Series 1. I have seen it all, but this series it's probably the most I know about the show. Is this series to be fair?
Speaker 2:so obviously made in america by hbo. Uh, first broadcast 1999. Last episode was june the 10th 2007 in the usa. I don't know what the date was. I think we follow quite closely behind, so I'm guessing it's, yeah, very similar. Might be the following day or something like that.
Speaker 1:Did you know actually, before it aired in England, how it had ended? The show had ended. No, definitely not.
Speaker 2:This was I mean, I'm saying it was the Worm mobile phones. This wasn't like this weren't like GoPost, Jumpers for GoPost and all that.
Speaker 1:Jumpers for GoPost, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think you would have actively had to have gone out your way to find out how it ended. It wasn't like now where you're trying to avoid stuff. I think you would have had to have gone and found it, and I didn't. I don't even. I can't think, looking back. I don't know if I knew this was the last one, in a sense that I think I knew that they were finishing it, but I don't know if I kind of thought, ah, they'll probably do some more at some point, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I had no idea how this was going to finish.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't know if you just want to do some general remembering first, or there's a screen rant article that's got eight Sopranos finale theories that can finally explain Tony's death 17 years on.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, we'll do a background on how we got to this day, because there might be people listening who have not seen it and all I'll say is we're going to ruin the ending, but just. Oh yeah, this is past sort of spoiler territory, Past spoiler. This is the last. This is season six of yeah, but if you haven't seen it, you have to watch it. It is my, I think it's my favourite TV show ever. I would say, yeah, it's the best, I mean in part.
Speaker 2:I think you probably know it better, more recently than me, because you've gone back through a lot of it. I loved it that much I almost don't want to go back. I don't want to go back and find it's not quite as good as I remember, but I do get dragged into lots of clips when they come on A lot of sort of do they call them shorts these days? Is that what the kids are calling them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, the kids. Yeah, Down with the kids on TikTok, but yeah, so just on the build-up to this, I mean you can step in and wear them wrong, basically. But obviously Tony Soprano runs the New Jersey crew, Soprano family.
Speaker 2:Do you know the Crime Boss family that they're part of? By the way, Good it's fell over this D something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't remember the name.
Speaker 2:People say he's the Sopranos fan. Obviously he is Tony Soprano, but it's the DiMeo fan.
Speaker 1:Dimeo, yeah, I kept thinking Joe DiMaggio, but he's a baseball player, isn't?
Speaker 2:he yeah, yeah, so he's not involved in this.
Speaker 1:He's not involved in it. Yeah, and obviously and obviously the first five series. Basically you're getting just Tony doing his general mob life sort of thing. He's brilliant. He's a therapist. It's not just about being a gangster, is it?
Speaker 2:obviously you've got more the premise is Tony Soprano, head of the crime family, but also head of the Sopranos family nothing to do with crime, and also he's seeing a therapist because he's having issues with anxiety and probably a lot of sort of quite an early sort of marker for the modern world, actually, a lot of this I mean.
Speaker 2:I know you have issues and I've sort of spoke to people in this, the sort of therapy era, more recently, because it yeah, there's this thing that he has, which is kind of what happens to the old-fashioned heroes who just got on with things and did them.
Speaker 1:Strong, silent type.
Speaker 2:Talk about things these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sort of was a start of all this sort of modern age of therapy. What about Gary Cooper? Yeah, Gary Cooper, yeah.
Speaker 1:He's a big fan of Gary Cooper, isn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 2:so he's juggling keeping this crime, family moving and working and all the everything that comes with that, whilst being a dad. And yeah, he's not happy, is he? Yeah?
Speaker 1:we should probably say as well he's not actually the boss. Is he Because Uncle Junior is the boss, but Tony is technically the boss because Uncle Junior, for the majority, majority of the sea of all series, is under house arrest and by the point we're getting to now, and I don't know if you've seen all series one yet.
Speaker 2:Um, but it's uh, jackie, april is the, the yeah, yeah and he dies and corrado soprano. So tony's uncle junior takes over the family, however that's that's done deliberately by tony to allow him to be the sort of figurehead while he can run things behind the scenes. Again, there's so much to go at we can't do it all. Yeah, we're going to skim through it.
Speaker 1:So we're just going to get straight to basically where we're at the last episode of the Sopranos. So throughout this series, I think that you're getting a sort of he keeps saying he feels like he says in the very first episode. Actually I think it is that he feels like he's coming in at the end of it, the end of the gangster period, the glory years of being a mobster.
Speaker 1:And this sort of is. By this point, by this episode, he's basically most of it. I mean, he's got Bobby Bacalar as his third-in-command because so many other people have either been shot or killed or left or whatever's happened. Bobby Bacalar was just Uncle Junior's driver, weren't he?
Speaker 2:Yeah, his dad was a famous hitman but he was sort of brought in as an assistant to Junior. Yeah, we've seen. I don't know what the sort of glory is, but you're right, it does feel like the end of this sort of thing. And we've seen success in Tony's family and they've sort of grown stronger and this very much does feel like things are collapsing around him.
Speaker 1:And he's becoming more and more of a horrible person. I think you can really sympathise with him, obviously, as a mobster, you know, but you can't really sympathise.
Speaker 2:But you sort of sympathise with him in the early series, but by this point there's a theory, by the way, that he's kind of accepted that, if not, that he's the devil, which might be doing a bit too much but that he isn't A lot of his internal struggle all the way through. It is that he kind of thinks he's a good guy and he doesn't understand why all this is going on around him. And there's supposedly the moment out in the desert in Las Vegas where he kind of accepts that actually, do you know what? He's just not a good person, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And he kind of embraces that that is what he is, so he becomes even worse as a person. I mean, obviously, before this episode. I don't think it is this episode. Obviously, we're not doing the episode, we're doing the very ending. So before this, all the build-up to this, he kills his, his protege, really isn't it, Chris?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think that's not this series, is it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's this series. Yeah, it's this series. It's not this episode, it the very first and it's almost like so. I remember our mate Brendan always saying he thought the show would end with Chris putting on the suit and like he's taking over as the boss.
Speaker 2:It was a cinematic moment, though, didn't it, brendan?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the words of Uncle Junior, I don't think Chris was ever cut out to be a varsity athlete. I don't think Chris would ever going to be a boss because he's too impulsive, he's a bit of a fucking, he's just an absolute wild card.
Speaker 2:He's a hothead, he's a drug addict, he's an alcoholic and rather than and there's quite a kind of really frustrating, sickening bit actually where after he's died, that sort of Tony and Paulie who was supposed to be his kind of mentors kind of say, oh I wonder if I let him down a little bit, and they sort of well, yeah, you absolutely did Like they were supposed to sort of bring him through this.
Speaker 1:And he was often yeah, laughed at, mocked.
Speaker 2:I mean when he tells him he's quitting drinking, it's a big joke. Yeah, yeah, I feel for him all the way through it and obviously for anyone who's seen Many Saints of Newark, which is the sort of prelude to this, that's how his dad gets killed in that. Yeah, dickie Mottisante was a fantastic character in the past and Tony's sort of taken on this role. I think he's actually I think he's Carmela's cousin.
Speaker 2:I think that's his sort of actual status, but I think because Dickie Mottisante kind of brought Tony up for some of his life, that he's taken on this role of sort of being his uncle, which I don't think he is, technically speaking.
Speaker 1:He's a really I find him a difficult character to like Chris, but I do have a lot of sympathy with him. He says at the start of Many Saints I knew it, don't I? This is the man who ruined my life. As he's talking about Tony, this is the man who I'm going to hell for. That's it sorry. Yeah, this is the man I'm going to hell for talk. He never really stood a chance but he were never going to be the top and he's always looking for that recognition from everybody and he never really gets it. But at the same time, paul, who's sort of the most loyal well, supposedly the most loyal of so on his crew, he is always frustrated with Chris because he thinks Chris is getting above him, doesn't he? Because Paulie Walnuts, which is like an unbelievable name.
Speaker 2:Paulie Gaultieri, but yeah, Paulie Walnuts is his street name.
Speaker 1:One of the funniest characters in TV history.
Speaker 2:I think Paulie I love well, paulie's got slick back hair and he's got those grey they call them wings sort of in the sideburns of his hairbrushed back. I love when Christopher gets made, isn't it? Oh, he's going to get made and the first thing he says is hey, I'm going to get fucking wings. Like Paulie, he's going to get grey bits put in his hair. I'm actually getting them, naturally, wings.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, you should get that. That'd be amazing, Paulie. He's got some of the best lines in it, Paulie. I mean, he's really into the supernatural, isn't he? He believes in ghosts and stuff, doesn't he? And he always thinks people are following him. And he actually goes to a seance, doesn't he?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the people he's killed are there. Yeah, and he's going.
Speaker 1:Oh, the guy who's doing the seance is going. Oh, what the fuck are they saying? I love how he points there in the corner yeah, what the fuck's he saying? But he like throws chair and he goes like this is fucking satanic bullshit, sick shit. It's like why's he gone?
Speaker 2:But I mean this is so meandering. But yeah, so two of sort of Tony's key players throughout who've come through with him. They're actually older than him but he's kind of pushed through the ranks to be higher than him. So Silvio Dante and Pauli Goltieri, and they're two key players all the way through. We might do an episode on Pauli at some point. Pauli flits with New York and he gets played a bit by Johnny Sark who's the boss of the New York family.
Speaker 1:He's a survivor, they say. I won't say he's the brightest spark, he's certainly not the best earner, is he, or anything like that, but he's a survivor and he'll do anything to cover his own back.
Speaker 2:Which might come in later on to one of the theories, he's a proper soldier as well. There's an episode where Tony's really impressed with him. I don't know who they mean, I don't know if it's some sort of Eastern Europeans, but they're clearly kind of. Just two of them, paul than Paulie and Tony have turned up and they're outnumbered and Tony's sort of looking a bit like, oh God, paulie jumps straight out of the car, goes up to him and sort of grabs his cheek. Hey, sonny boy, what the fuck is this? He's a proper kind of old school, I think. In real life slightly similar, obviously not the sort of he was a mobster, weren't I?
Speaker 1:Ex-soldier who had sort of connections with crime, cirico Ciriso yeah, yeah, yeah, so he's, but he's a fantastic character, paul. I should also probably mention Uncle Junior, who is I don't know if he's technically still the boss by this point, but he's got like dementia, really, really, really bad dementia. One of the funniest scenes in it actually is when he thinks he's Larry David.
Speaker 2:What the fuck is this? Is this the fucking trial? Yeah, he's got security enthusiasm, Larry David and Jeff yeah, he thinks it's him and Bobby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's got me and Bobby at the fucking trial. Is this a TV show? What the fuck? He's another fantastically funny character, uncle Junior, very similar to Chris, I think, in the sense that he never he's always after recognition. He always wants to. He feels like Tony's dad were always above him and he hates the fact that Tony's got more respect than him as well. There's that scene where I can't remember what they do. They talk about something and Uncle Judy says something and someone says what do you think? Tony? Because I'm the fucking boss, why are you asking him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't quite. I suppose what we're doing is we're just doing what we said, we're just remembering his sopranos. So it is all over the place. But where we're trying to get to is is the ending, most of the crew, the old school, and if I suppose, if you've seen it, hopefully you'll be remembering along with us. If you haven't, this might not be the episode for you.
Speaker 1:To be honest, no, but honestly, if you've not, if you've not seen it, just go and watch it, because we're trying to do six series in about an hour here, so yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't even know. I was going to go through some of the cast, but I don't necessarily know if this is the time to do it. I think.
Speaker 1:Well, silvio's another one that he's mentioning-band never acted before.
Speaker 2:Do you know that he was lined up for the role of Tony?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to Tony. It was him who said, weren't it? He said I don't want to play Tony, he needs to go to a more experienced actor, puts a wig on, and he always. One of the main things about him is he's just exactly the same impression, don't he, of what's his name of Goodfellas Godfather.
Speaker 2:Yeah, corleone, yeah. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in, but he didn't do it especially well and everyone loves it.
Speaker 1:No, he does a shit impression. That's why I brought it up. And they all laugh, they all wait for him, they all smile and then he does exactly the same line and it was like they've never heard it before and it's shit. He's certainly not Wes, dennis Well he is.
Speaker 1:Well, exactly, yeah. So, silvio, by this point, we'll get into this. Like I say, it's all over because we're trying to do it all in. But that's why we put it off so long on the Maitland podcast, to be fair, by this point, so they've always had a good relationship, aren't they, with the? Oh go on not.
Speaker 2:New Jersey New.
Speaker 1:York, new York, because, well, it was Carmel Senior with the runner of that, basically Carmine Carmine sorry, carmine Carmine and obviously he had a good relationship really. So let me tell you, they didn't really seem as as much of a threat or anything. And then Johnny Sack became boss and Tony and Johnny Sack were I don't know if they were childhood friends, but they were friends for a long time, weren't they, johnny Sack?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they sort of came through together. I mean New York we only see New York through the eyes of New Jersey. But there's a bit where they're talking about going to war and obviously his career. He's kind of got I don't know, say, seven or eight main people and he says to Chris, tony, he's got 300 soldiers over there. Chris says I ain't scared of nobody, I'll fucking go for them, but they're massively out. Yeah, and they're seen as a bit sort of down in terms of old school, like mob family.
Speaker 1:They're a bit sort of the up-and-coming loud don't-get-things-done-the-old way, almost yeah, because Phil, johnny Sack, ends up getting cancer. He dies in prison and Phil Leotardo, who's one of my favourite ever characters, becomes the boss and he calls them a glorified crew. And he also says that Because they don't even get their fucking finger prick when they're being made. He's proper old school and he sees these people just like and Phil. The reason we have to bring this up is because Phil is now the boss, because Johnny's died and he's fucking mad. He's been in the can for 20 years, as he mentions yeah, so running joke.
Speaker 2:You know how many times he keeps saying he's been in the camp. But he is one of them who, rather than speaking out or giving up any names, he just did his time. He did 20 years and he hates the new, because even Johnny Sack doesn't give up any names. No, but he acknowledges that he was the boss of the crime family and he's furious because he says you don't even fucking acknowledge this thing of ours. It's not even a done thing.
Speaker 2:There's a name for it, but he kind of accepts that he's part of the mafia effectively, which they don't do.
Speaker 1:Which they don't do. Yeah, and then Phil. By this point, something happened obviously in the previous series I think it were where Steve Buscemi's character, his name is it.
Speaker 2:Tony B, tony Blondetto, tony.
Speaker 1:Blondetto. Tony Blondetto kills Phil Leotardo's brother in front of him and that is an absolute no-no, and Tony knows that this is not going to go. But Johnny Sack keeps the peace, doesn't he? Johnny Sack is obviously a boss at this point, but Phil's always got this in him.
Speaker 2:Well borderline, it's boiling over Sort of yeah.
Speaker 2:So Johnny Sack and Phil Iattardo want Tony Soprano's cousin dead, but they want to kill him, they want to torture him effectively and it causes a huge risk that they're all kind of on alert because and Phil's kind of decided that he has a chat with the New York family or some of them, and they say you can't kill a boss of the family and one of them I'm not sure if it's Borchardt one of them says, well, take one of them, then pick somebody an eye for an eye. So they're all on high alert that Phil Yotaro is going to kill somebody from Tony's family. Tony ends up killing his cousin, his own cousin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, his own cousin he decides he's going to do it. He's not going to let them do it. His cousin's been in the can for like 15 years, hasn't he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, his cousin's been in the can for 15 years and again another tangent, but this plays into Tony's insecurities.
Speaker 2:He feels really guilty because the night he got caught by the police Tony was supposed to be there, but he had an anxiety attack and he couldn't go, so it all fuels this thing of his. He feels guilt because this. He sees it as a mental weakness that stopped him being there so he didn't take blame and, yeah, he carries a lot of guilt for that.
Speaker 1:But Phil is, I mean, I think, phil. I don't think it would have taken the death of his brother to do this anyway. But by this point, phil, you know he's going to declare war on them as soon as he becomes the head honcho. I think it's pretty.
Speaker 2:There's that brilliant scene where he's drinking in Chicken Town, by John Cooper Clarkson in the background, and he's basically saying no more no fucking more and that's basically when it's really like you get shivers down your spine watching that scene and he should be dead, by the way, because Paulie Paulie's supposed to arrange a hit on him and his daughter, I think. But he picks the wrong house and they shoot some random guy and woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:One of the best facial expressions is when Silvio shows Paulie the paper and the wrong people are dead. It's like a little boy expression for this tough gangster.
Speaker 1:It's so funny, it's brilliant. There's a great bit where Phil goes. He goes. They're not about tony because that fat fucker says I look like the shah of iran. It's so good he's like because this is why I love philly. He's got some amazing lines. There's all sort of things throughout with it, so I don't even know if it's like he's not really very subtle really that he's. He's homosexual as well. He has veto killed another one of tony's men because he finds out he's gay and he's been cheating on his. Is it Phil's sister?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, phil's sister. And as he kills him, he comes out of the closet. It's a brilliant scene. So he literally comes out of a closet to kill him because you're a fucking disgrace. But they find a way to poke you up his ass, don't they? Yeah, they find a way to poke you up his ass, don't they? Yeah, they find a way to pork you up his ass and he's genuine. And then they try to feed the news back to his ex-wife and Will's strongest man has on him background in TV. But he can fucking turn that fucking thing off, Honestly it's one of the funniest shows on TV ever.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine anybody's still here if they've never seen it. But yeah, it's Frank Vincent who plays him. But he's still here. If they've never seen it, but yeah, it's Frank Vincent who plays him. Who's the guy in Goodfellas? Yeah, yeah, yeah, get your fucking shine box Once you go home. Get your fucking shine box. Yeah, tommy and Jimmy kill.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, brilliant, brilliant casting. I mean he's in a lot of these things, and rightly so. He's absolutely fantastic, yeah, yeah. So I think, coming into the last episode, is Phil being killed? Does he get shot at a car?
Speaker 1:No, he's in this episode. So what happens in this episode? Basically, it starts off so by this point, because they've declared war against each other, basically because it's all realistic, because he wants revenge for his brother that's all where it boils down to, I think. And so they declare war on each other. Silvio is in a coma because he's shot by New York, some hitmen from New York. Paulie somehow gets away with it. Paulie, the survivor, is not involved. Chris has already been killed by Tony in this series. Obviously, Tony Blondetto's gone. And Bobby Bacalar has also been shot in a train shop, in a model train shop, because that was his favourite thing, marisi is still around yeah, but he yeah because he's one of the sort of rumours actually.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the thing sorry, this is the thing is that Tony's whatever he what's going on? Tony's having to hide out and his family's in a safe house. Whatever happens from here, tone is fucked because even if he didn't go to jail because there's stuff going on that people might testify against him he might end up in jail. If he doesn't end up in jail, he's got no crew left.
Speaker 2:No, but I think the sort of thinking is, if they can ride out the storm, if they can take it out Phil, then they can do a deal with what's left and that they can rebuild the crew. And obviously we see quite a small select group, but there'll be people ready to step into these roles yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we don't really see much of.
Speaker 2:Paulie or Chris's guy. I mean, we do when it suits. So we see Matthew Bevilacqua and I can't remember the other guy's name, but we only see little bits of their cruise. But there'll be other people ready to step into the void.
Speaker 1:I would think if, if tony's still around after this episode, which we'll get to- but this builds up now basically where phil obviously, uh, head of new york calls butcher, who is is sort of assistant you know, he's right and man from a pay phone because he's hiding out as well, because obviously they're at war with each other and he's fuming with him that he hasn't killed tony yet. So butchie starts basically saying should we not make peace? He didn't really actually say that. He sort of in a roundabout way says should we make peace? And he says are you for fucking real? Basically no, we can't, we can't go back now. And then butchie says I don't ever sit down after this. Obviously he wants to be like become more of a you, a pivotal role or whatever in the New York gangster world or whatever. And Phil just says yeah, yeah, whatever. I think obviously this theory's coming up that might go against this, but I think that's Butchie thinking this guy's out of control. We need him out of the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they have decided he's too much of a loose cannon. I know him as Butchie, I don't know him as butchy, but um, oh well, yeah, butch, he went gangsta miles bigger than him as well, massive, great, great. Yeah. There's a sort of feeling up, just as the he's there when tony smashes coco's teeth, and isn't he?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, so he's quite a senior figure in it anyway, and and he's in a lot of the sit-downs and, yeah, I think he's of a view that fills, because ultimately, they all want to make money out of this. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're all losing money.
Speaker 2:This is causing massive upset and also there's this fear that if they don't control their territory, that the Mexicans or whoever else is going to move in and take control of certain areas control of certain areas. So this is not good for business. This, that's going on and I think you're right, yeah, that there's a decision.
Speaker 1:Now it's probably got to go. Butch then gets in touch with tony and well, there's only tony and paul. They've really left of the the main, you know the main crew. At this point, as you said, people would step up, or so they have a meeting and butch says, look, I'm not going to kill him myself or we're not going to kill Phil, but if it happens, we will not make you know, that won't be a thing, we'll not declare war. And then Phil, the worst thing that happened. So a hitman hired to kill Phil by Tony's crew and he's killed in front of his family, which is a bit of a no, no, which might come into the theories at the end.
Speaker 2:And it's even worse when the truck that he's driving in rolls over his own head, yeah, yeah, I don't know the rules in terms of shot in front of his family. I know it's probably bad etiquette, but yeah, I think it's bad etiquette.
Speaker 1:Being shot in front of your family oh come on, mate, it's bad etiquette that yeah, but I think if somebody's got a girl, they've got a girl.
Speaker 2:I think it's it's. I don't necessarily think it's the family thing. I mean I think his grandkids are in the back, but I think, yeah, it's done. I mean, obviously the car rolling over his head means there can't be an open casket and, yeah, he's out of the way. But it's not necessarily the cleanest way.
Speaker 1:So technically now everything's back to normal. The New York crew are okay with the New Jersey crew and everything back to normal. We get a little scene after that of Tony going to visit Uncle Junior who has just completely lost his mind to dementia. So really like quite a sad bit there. I think like Tony starts crying, doesn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he says he talked to him about something. And he's sort of nodding along vaguely and he says do you even know who I am?
Speaker 1:He goes. You don't even know who I am, do you? And he goes.
Speaker 2:It looks completely gone out, yeah it looks really confused, yeah. But he tells him yeah, you and my dad run, you used to run North Jersey and he looks quite sort of hmm, what a thing.
Speaker 1:And it's just a real sad end to this guy who was the leader of this fucking huge crew, you know, and he was there for the glory days and stuff like that, and now he's just this guy in a corner of a home in a wheelchair. It's really genuinely a sad scene. So now we'll get to the main bit, anyway, liam, where this is what we're all going to talk about. We had to do a bit of background but hit, like and subscribe. But yeah, so Sopranos are in to meet at dinner. The family, the Sopranos Basically Tony, I think, like before says that Carlo's going to testify, so there's a massive chance Tony's going to end up in jail. That's like a big sort of thing about this. Aj turns up and it doesn't look like anything's going wrong.
Speaker 2:Really on the, you know, on the normal scene. It's a little bit of a throwback because Tony and Carmela are separated and the family are all meeting up for a spot of Some onion rings. Yeah, just a diner for a snack.
Speaker 1:Meadow, the daughter is pulling up outside. She's not very good at parallel parking, so she has to do that three times. She comes in and I'm doing this as if this is what I saw the first time I ever saw it, and then the screen just goes to black and that's that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean not quite that. So she's struggling to park Tony, carmela and AJ have all made their way in. There's things happening around them in the diner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry yeah, we'll go into that.
Speaker 2:But when I first watched it in terms of just like yeah, in its absolute, bluntest sense yeah, she walks in, tony walks blank blank screen, then it goes off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is the end to the.
Speaker 2:Sopranos.
Speaker 1:Before we get to theories. What did you think of that ending at the time and now?
Speaker 2:It's a tough one, because I wasn't. I remember the next day speak to people who were absolutely furious. That can't be it. That's absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 2:We've waited all this time I wasn't annoyed but I didn't feel satisfied. I was kind of like I think where I talked myself into was that it's kind of it's been a privilege to watch this family for this period of time and now that that book's just closed and we don't get to see anymore and it's like every, every story has to end. But I think where a lot of TV shows go wrong and I'm talking Dexter, I'm talking house, I'm talking match of the day, peaky blinders yeah, match of the day, you know, peaky Blinders, yeah, match of the Day Just generally TV shows don't know how to end. And I thought what this got really well is let's not try and write some kind of clever ending where we need an explanation of why everything happens the way it does. Let's just finish it.
Speaker 2:Also to me, at least in the first instance. I thought, well, at way it does, let's just finish it. Yeah, also to me, at least in the first instance. I thought, well, at least it means there's a potential for more, which I quite liked, but I certainly wasn't dead against it, but I didn't love it at first glance.
Speaker 1:See, I did get a spoil about this point. Um, I knew what had happened because everyone was talking about it, um, and I just I can't, I just always have to ask well, go on then tell me what, tell me what happened. And then someone told me and I'm like, is that it? And then I watched it, so I knew what was coming and I was a little bit disappointed. But I think the fact that how many years on are we? 15 years, is it, something like that, whatever, it is, 10 years, whatever 18, is it?
Speaker 1:18, whatever it is, and it still comes up in my mind now. I still think, I wonder what. I think I know what happened, but obviously I don't, because everyone will have their own endings, but I think the fact that we're going to talk about it now you won't get this with, like you said, dexter I mean more recently, I think David Chase has kind of he's kind of almost stated Sort of acknowledged yeah, he's dead. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he hasn't. But what he said is I think he said something like it was. So what I read is that he envisaged that the opening iconic credits, where he's driving kind of into New Jersey across the bridge from his suburban house, that there'd be a similar type shot where he's actually driving to New York and he's driving to be killed. He's going to a meeting, but actually he's going there to be killed, and it would kind of be that the ending sort of mimics the start and that that's what he was thinking. But then apparently he was driving through I don't know if it's New York or New Jersey and he saw this little diner and he thought, no, that's where the ending would happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah so people have taken from that that that's where he was killed.
Speaker 1:So I think I mean you can go through all the theories but the one that seems to be over. There's a guy in it with a member's owner jacket in the diner and the biggest I think the most popular theory is that he kills him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the backdrop to that is that Eugene, who was one of Tony's crew he inherited a lot of money from, I think, his auntie Diane and he went to see Tony to say basically, I acknowledge we have to give you a kick out of what we get, but then he wants to walk away and go and live a peaceful life away from this. Tony initially says yes, but then I don't know if he has a bad day gambling or something else goes on and he decides no actually, but it's Tony just being the horrible character again. Yeah, I mean for quite a kind of heroic character to a lot of people and actually at the time I thought he was brilliant Tony. He's appalling as much as he's kind of really iconic he's.
Speaker 1:Oh, he is, yeah, he's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's absolutely one of the most evil characters in TV, really. You know, one of the most horrible scenes, isn't it really?
Speaker 1:No, obviously there's all the blood on the guts and stuff like that. But when AJ is, I think it's like laughing on his computer, you know, with his mate, and he's fucking fuming with him, Tony, just for laughing, because what he's looking at him is thinking you've got no fucking problems, I've got all my problems and then he goes to like talk to his therapist afterwards. I'd like to wring his fucking neck and you're like Jesus, this guy's fucked.
Speaker 2:He's one of them, isn't he that like you get people like this in life that I think he's kind of saved by the fact he's a big guy. I think if he was just a sort of small scrawny guy with the same attitude, I just think he'd have got nowhere. But he is a big, intimidating, tough guy and I think that's got him quite a long way, but yeah.
Speaker 1:So sorry, as you were saying yeah, go on back to the the Eugene thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the members only jacket is a reference to Eugene, who ended up killing himself himself because, yeah, he couldn't get out. His missus hates him for not getting out. Um, so it sounds like. Sounds like a couple of dogs fighting outside my house, but I can't see anything. Uh, perhaps a reference to the sopranos perhaps a metaphor for yeah, um, yeah, so so, and also there's a, there's a godfather reference, so where?
Speaker 2:yeah uh, michael kills I can't remember who it is, but two of the bosses, and he's obviously searched on his way into the restaurant. But he's been in previously and he's taped a pistol behind the system in the toilet. So not that he would have to. He's not searched on the way in this character in the members-only jacket, but it's just a reference to an assassination effectively. So he goes into the toilet before Meadow comes in. So he's effectively the prime candidate and it's some connection. It's some family member of Eugene who hates Tony for what he's done. I mean, to me that seems quite Of all the things he's done.
Speaker 2:I think this it seems like that would be quite surprising if that's the thing that catches him out in the end.
Speaker 1:I was going to bring this up. I would be disappointed if that was the ending, because I think all the other things that could have but you could be could be, you know, I mean another. Another theory is Paul. They killed him. Paul, where it's all, basically, we're all set up.
Speaker 2:Shall we go through, before we sort of say what we think, these screen rants? They've got eight theories on what could have happened, some more ridiculous than others, but let's go through them and I think they miss obvious things. But so number eight, and it's screenrantcom Sopranos finale theories. Number eight is the guy in the members only. So this is what we just mentioned, the most common theory. It makes sense to assume and assassinate Tony as if he served no purpose. There's no reason to give him so much screen time. So we keep seeing this awkward man at the bar and the diner. So he's the obvious choice, really. Then also number seven, which is part of the same thing really, but they've got it as a separate theory, which is tony's death acts as homage to the godfather. So it's that that same guy goes in. But to me you know nitpicking, but they're, they're one theory. Screen rant, really. Number six it's what you just mentioned.
Speaker 2:Paulie walnuts put a hit on tony yeah so tony's death could have come from inside his crew. He has a complex relationship with Tony Soprano throughout. If Tony's final death came from within, then Paulie would, which I agree. If it was a hit from within, Paulie would be suspect. Yeah, I don't think. I think he's for all his failings. I don't think he's got it in him to go and shoot Tony in front. No, but I don't think he's got it in him to go and shoot Tony in front of his family.
Speaker 1:No, but he has got it in him, as we know from an earlier episode, that he tries to get in with the New York family and Johnny Sack plays him like an idiot basically and he looks a fool, makes a fool of himself Maybe, but I think Meadow and AJ sort of look up to him. Yeah, but he's a survivor If he's thinking, look, we might have sorted this. I don't know if this is.
Speaker 2:This is not my theory but I think, as an over emotional guy who believes in all these sort of superstitions, I don't believe he would go and shoot in front of his kids.
Speaker 1:I don't think he's done it. I think, but he might have thought this is fucked and he's given him a job as well in this, in this episode, which he didn't want it.
Speaker 2:It's the head of construction, because don't they all keep ending up dead?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he basically don't want it. And Tony, he doesn't force him to have it, but he knows he has to take it.
Speaker 2:The next one, number five, is the most ridiculous thing on the whole list. Aj Carmella or Meadow had Tony whacked. They sent him to the diner with with him waiting for him to be shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why would they be there? They wouldn't do it in a diner, would they? I mean Carmelo.
Speaker 2:They want to watch him be shot to death. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shut down in a hail of bullets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why would they be there? I mean, like if you wanted someone dead, you wouldn't, unless you really.
Speaker 2:I mean I suppose you absolutely not For all his failings. His kids love him and he's a very flawed father figure.
Speaker 1:But absolutely not.
Speaker 2:And Carmella. Yeah, they have a very fractured relationship, but there's this sort of childhood sweethearts. I mean she's seen at times as quite cold and calculated and I think her sort of money ticket has gone once Tony's dead. So for all sorts of reasons I just don't buy into that at all. Number four, slightly more plausible so Patsy Parisi orchestrated Tony's death. So Philly Parisi, I can't say that. Right, parisi, do you remember? When he comes back off a flight and he's talking about he hears that Tony tried to kill his, his own mother and the shoe.
Speaker 1:So that's his twin brother.
Speaker 2:And there's a scene where Patsy turns up at Tony's house and he's absolutely wasted waving a gun around in the kitchen and he ends up having a piss in his pool, if you remember that, yeah, yeah. So there, yeah, yeah. So there's clear hatred. And there's a bit where Tony sits him down and says something like look, whatever you believe about your brother, you have to let that go. Can you do that? Because he sort of clearly knows that part of Patsy hates him because he's suspected to kill his brother Again. I don't think Patsy's got that in him as shown in that scene where he just can't actually go through with any violence and I think if he turned up with a gun.
Speaker 2:I think Tony would take it off him and beat him up with it.
Speaker 1:I just don't think he's got it in him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Number three David Chase's original ending happens later. So what they're saying is that this, this finishes now and again, a bit like what I said earlier, we just don't see any more of his life. He probably still goes to New York and they probably get rid of him just to move on, yeah, so nothing happens basically. But in this moment there is no ending.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, possible, yeah, I think that's definitely possible. Yeah, Again, they've got sort of two out of one here, because number two nobody kills Tony in the final. He's done so much damage to so many people and the fact that there are so many theories that effectively, every time he goes into a diner, this is the situation that it could be this time, it could not be this time. It might not be dead now, but it's only a matter of time. And then the, the one that's probably the slightly most ridiculous. But I'm not going to go into sort of all the reasons for it, but there are. There are sort of some fairly clever plot devices that could give you this. I don't see it, but Tony actually died in season five and a lot of this is his.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, cause they have a dream. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and certain things that don't really follow. So, yeah, it's possible that none of this is real. I don't buy into that, but they're the screen rant theories. Any of them, do it for you or have you got your own?
Speaker 1:I think the only, the poorly one's, the only one that to me would make a good ending. I don't know if he would do it or not, but the ultimate survivor. I like that idea of if he did go back to it. He's just sat with the new york crew. Do you know what I mean? Look a bit like um. Well, as many saints knew it, when uncle junior kills um, go on yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, obviously it's a different reason, but no one will.
Speaker 1:He's dead and he know. Uncle junior knows no one will ever know that he's put that hit out and it could be that for paula, because there's no fucker left. Do you know what I mean to to actually like say hang on. Did you do this because sylvio's in a coma, he's probably not going to come out and all the other main guys are thought of being popped sorry another thing, sorry, yeah, just sorry. Do you see the super bowl commercial that came out a few years after?
Speaker 1:which I don't know if it's the director by david chase and it's basically meadow um, just driving and then she ends up meeting up with aj and blah, blah, blah and it just looks like a nothing commercial, but a few people have read things into that where aj could be a ghost on that in that advert, if you look at things in a particular way. I'll not go through it all, we've gone forever, but you know what I mean. And she's wearing three rings and there's a lot of symbolization of three in that final scene where there's three onion rings. I think Don't Stop Believing is track number three and all this. And she's wearing three rings and that's like maybe they say it. And she parks first time as well in this advert. No messing around parallel parking stuff. She actually parks first time Because it takes her three times to park in that episode as well. The final episode Is that three, symbolising that all three of them were killed. I don't know why they would be, but it's just another thing.
Speaker 2:The other three, yeah, so the other, aj, carmella and Tony all being shot. Yeah, if it's a hit, I don't see why they'd kill Carmella or AJ.
Speaker 1:No, I don't, Because obviously with Phil they didn't kill his wife. Why they'd kill Carmella or AJ? No, I don't, Because obviously with Phil they didn't kill his wife.
Speaker 2:No, and that's never. It's not really the way it's done. I mean, if it's because the other things that I'm sort of thought of was. So there's the guy who owns a sports store, that he runs his business into the ground. I can't quite remember how, what his ending is. I know they sort of break him, but that was the sort of thing that could have come back on him and the big one for me, because I hated throughout how. So the Pine Barrens is not just my favourite.
Speaker 1:I was about to bring that one up. Yeah, Pine Barrens.
Speaker 2:Most people's favourite episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Russian.
Speaker 2:They go to collect from the Russian, they end up shooting them in the woods. They never find a body. Obviously they never find a body. Obviously that Tony's kind of working with his boss, who's one of the top Russian gangsters at the time, and that just never goes anywhere. There's a sort of implication at the end to like, oh fuck, where's this going to go? And it's never mentioned again. And it would kind of be closure for that if the Russians just sat quiet for a while and then thought, right, we'll get him when the time's right. I kind of always thought maybe that could be it, but Weird that that never came back. That that, yeah, and this, this would be because David Chase is not the sort of person to to write things and then just forget them and abandon them, just like leave it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one, though I think that definitely, well, he is definitely dead. Now, the actor is dead, so he's obviously not going to come back, but I do think Chase probably left it open-ended to what maybe, if they did, you know, they might have come back at some point, I think. But I think after obviously the years went by and obviously James Gandolfini passed away I think obviously you're talking about fiction and reality here, but he is dead. You know, tony Ziprano, I'm pretty sure, was killed in that scene, but did you?
Speaker 2:Is that now, in hindsight?
Speaker 1:No, have you always thought that, sorry, yeah, yeah, I think that was in hindsight, because I think the fate of Black is. This is why I didn't like it at the time, because I thought it's a bit of a cop-out that Because you can just bring him back or whatever, it's not really an end. Like you, it it's not really an ending. You know they could do a movie and sort it out that way or whatever. Now everything's obviously passing. It's not going to come back.
Speaker 2:I think obviously you're putting your your own brain logic into a fictional show. But I think he is dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't think he died in that scene and I think the most likely I don't know what the most likely candidate is. That's the interesting thing, that's. This is why it is a brilliant ending, because you're still talking about what the fuck was that all about? It's a bit like Twin Peaks' second series ending. You want to know what the hell was that about.
Speaker 2:There's a quote from I think it's Bobby as well where he says when it happens. I wonder if you even hear it.
Speaker 1:And obviously it cuts before there's no buying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that ties back into that. I mean, the other thing that I meant to look into, because I I watched something about this and I forgot, but there's this is.
Speaker 1:Another one, by the way, is his sister. Uh, because obviously she's trying to get money off uncle junior, because obviously uncle junior's gone, see now whatever, but um, and he sends her away after she kills ritchie don't know yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and tony sort of says he goes to meet Juni to say, no, you've got to get to Bobby's kids. I don't think that's happened, but that's another theory.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the context of the quote, but I've got it up now. Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky. That's read or shown at some point and that supposedly has some, some context, but I can't remember what that is.
Speaker 1:There's a massive chance. David chase don't even know maybe, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:I mean, I wonder whether the the three things parking and the things like that, as he saw, I don't, I don't know though he seems too clever to put things in by accident. So they're either red herrings or pot devices, I would say yeah, but why three?
Speaker 1:I don't get the number three, really, other than if all three of them have died and stuff like that. I don't know if you had to do it right. Let's say you're going back into a time machine brian dean and his time machine, that's your well, that is one of yours, by the way that you I have nicked that. Um you and they said look, we've got 10 minutes to go. David Chase is not here. How are we going to end it, liam? Would you end with this or would you go with something different?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the genius of David Chase. Sorry, let's just do this because we're obviously remembering Quantum Leap you're going oh boy, you're David Chase in that sort of Well, I think what anyone else would try and do is end it, and I think this is the genius of David Chase, that people didn't necessarily get at the time is that he didn't, I think everyone would say oh, we have to give some obvious clue. We have to say this one's for Eugene, or there'd be some ridiculous line, yeah, yeah yeah, oh no, sorry.
Speaker 1:another one we've missed out is obviously Butch could have done it and it could have been a fake. Obviously obviously Butch could have done it.
Speaker 2:It could have been a fake. Obviously they came to a truce, but was he buying it?
Speaker 1:in his time? I don't think so, because why would he not just let Phil? They may as well have done it when Phil were around. It doesn't really make much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't see the New York doing this. I think they seem to decide you know, we make money out of the New Jersey guys. Let's get rid of Phil. He's too much of a problem, he's too old school. Yeah, I don't think the hit comes from New York. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think where most people would go wrong is they would try and build up to some really clever ending and they would say ah yeah, but what about if, if Tony orders the the certain dish, and the fact that they haven't got the onions is what kills him, because the chef has to go to get extra onions and that's what lets the assassin in the back door.
Speaker 1:People have said he's had an heart attack as well because of all the stress. That's another like sort of ending there. He didn't. Everyone's thinking it's going to be a gunshot and all this stuff. It could have just been an heart attack yeah, again possible.
Speaker 2:I mean, like, like people have said and like the theory we read said, there's certainly something in the fact that we keep seeing this guy at the bar.
Speaker 2:There's certainly some Members, only man. Yeah, he's either there and again, I don't know if David Chase is too subtle to have him as a very obvious killer. So I don't know if he's the red herring and he didn't do it. But yeah, I mean the fact that 17 years later that we're still talking about it and we're still intrigued, and it still probably makes me want to go back and watch some bits and think, yes, I wonder what was going on is the masterstroke of writing? Because, as I say, dexter ended awfully. I couldn't watch the end of House. It lost my interest. Same with Peaky Blinders. I'm trying to think of the best drama ending. Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 1:I mean, mash ended really well but that sort of had to end in a sentimental way. In a way, there was a time where it had to, yeah yeah, the war ended and it were always going to be that sort of that were a good ending. But I'm trying to think like it got out of prison, didn't it?
Speaker 2:and they did it, yeah, but then they did a going straight.
Speaker 1:It was crap. It was just him trying to do shelves and stuff and like dropping things. Shit. Yeah, I'm trying to.
Speaker 2:Obviously after this couldn't have going straight. Going straight, he becomes a joiner. He's trying to build like comedy comedy.
Speaker 1:Six seven is music. Every time he does something wrong. Oh no, I don't like, like I say. I mean, obviously we talked about the endings before. The Maidly pod about the Office was a great ending, but it's a comedy again. It's different For something this huge and this sort of it's one of the funniest shows of all time, but something this serious, I don't know how you end it with pleasing anybody.
Speaker 2:I think the only other way you end it is that you kill them all and you make it very deliberate. This is the end they're all dead.
Speaker 1:I and you make it very deliberate. This is the end. They're all dead. I think I've mentioned before my preference is either a, really, if you can't think of anything, just go mad like Biker Grove did and get dinosaurs in and stuff. Imagine how mad people have been about that. Paulie comes in. He's a part T-Rex. I fucking told you Right that I really really, really, really enjoyed that. If you didn't watch Sopranos, you've made it this way through.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you're doing with your life? You can't stop me here. No, you can't.
Speaker 1:And I know Ryan's obviously been requesting this for ages. I hope he enjoyed it and we know we've not done it as much justice as we can but we thought this might be the best way to end it.
Speaker 2:It's one of them, though. With it, yeah, yeah, yeah more in depth.
Speaker 1:Look, uh, um, uncle junior or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed that way and proper, proper enjoyed that and we would. We would completely go in the other way for the next episode and we're going to do who remembers italia 90? Both our first world cup again, it's a big topic to put, to do in trying to get in for an hour or whatever, but we're going to talk about our memories of our first ever World Cup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you're a little bit older than us you might remember more of it. If you're a little bit younger you might not remember it at all. But this was prime. So for both of us this was the first.
Speaker 1:We were eight First I ever got into football yeah, the first I ever ever got into football.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, and it was the first time I was ever conscious of a major football tournament and kind of the implications of that and staying up late to watch bits of it, even though I didn't really follow it that much. Yeah, we'll get into it, but I mean the David Platt goal is etched into my brain forever. I watched it in a caravan, Funnily enough.
Speaker 1:I mean we'll talk about it next week, but I think the David Platt goal was the first sort of moment I ever got into football, that particular moment. So a massive big three cheers for David Platt yeah, yeah or both Platts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, both Platts. Obviously, the Coronation Street one as well. Right, thank you for that, liam, and we'll be back for episode 4 very, very soon. Cheers everybody. Thank you for listening to who Remembers. If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us at whorememberspod, at outlookcom. If you are a right wing fascist, you can find us on twitter at whorememberspod, or if you're a woken up, you can find us on bluesky at whorememberspod. Once again, thank you for listening and we'll see you next time for more remembering.