WHO REMEMBERS? The UK Nostalgia Podcast
A nostalgia trip for anyone in the UK who grew up on dial-up Internet, Findus Crispy Pancakes, and playground rumours that couldn’t be fact-checked online. We’re not historians — we don’t do dates, and we barely do facts — but science says reminiscing gives your brain a dopamine hit, so think of us as your weekly dose of hazy memories, childhood flashbacks, and confidently misremembered events.
Expect frequent arguments about who remembers things properly as we rummage through the UK’s collective memory box.
WHO REMEMBERS? The UK Nostalgia Podcast
Who Remembers........Saipan 2002? Keane v McCarthy
A World Cup camp with no footballs, a chewed‑up pitch, and a captain who refused to accept the circus—Saipan 2002 is the moment Ireland’s ambitions met its identity. We rewind to the week that split a squad and a country, unpacking how Roy Keane’s demand for basic professionalism clashed with Mick McCarthy’s authority and approach to team culture. From the missing kit and late‑night sessions to the infamous no‑goalkeeper game, we track the small details that signalled big problems and pushed a world‑class midfielder to the brink.
We walk through the Irish Times interview that lit the fuse, the charged team meeting where Keane unleashed a devastating tirade, and the immediate fallout that turned training ground gripes into national theatre. Phone‑ins, headlines, even political interventions—everyone took a side. Inside the camp, teammates mostly kept their heads down as Keane departed and McCarthy doubled down. Then came the twist: Ireland rallied to the last sixteen, losing to Spain on penalties, a result that raises a question still worth asking—did unity through avoidance help, or did missing their best player cap the ceiling?
With a clear-eyed look at the aftermath—McCarthy’s resignation, Keane’s regrets and return under Brian Kerr, and later management journeys—we examine what Saipan teaches about leadership, standards, and communication. Was Keane right about the shambles? Largely, yes. Was his delivery self-defeating? Also yes. Could McCarthy have defused the bomb with a private conversation instead of a public showdown? Almost certainly. If you care about high-performance culture, football history, and the thin line between principle and pride, this one’s for you.
Enjoy the dive? Follow, share with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more listeners find the show. Then tell us: Team Roy or Team Mick?
Hello, and welcome to Who Remembers the UK North Scholarship Podcast. And in this week's episode, we are talking about 2002. So ask Who Remembers the SkyCon Incident?
SPEAKER_00:Can I do an episode on that?
SPEAKER_02:You can. That didn't work quite as well as I were expecting.
SPEAKER_00:You've paused far too long.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I I didn't I didn't know what you were saying.
SPEAKER_00:No, yeah, just uh I lost it. It was supposed to be a Keen. Well, we pre-planned it with about one second to go, so I said this'll be good.
SPEAKER_02:Why don't I start with you can because obviously that's Mick McCarthy's more famous clerk. But yeah, you you butchered Roy Keane and then I paused two hundred.
SPEAKER_03:You can be a podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Normal podcasts would have uh edited that out, but not us. We're we're we're wild and we we go with it, aren't we? Lived by the seat of the. So this is the Saipan incident, Liam, of 2002. And as a Keen Republic of Ireland fan yourself and a keen Roy Keane fan, I've got a feeling you're gonna go one way and not the other when we come to analysing who was right in this and who was wrong. So this is obviously the argument between Mick McCarthy and Roy Keane during the World Cup 2002 in um Japan and South Korea, which resulted in Roy Keane being removed from the squad, which uh divided public opinion still to this day, in in fact, uh regarding who was blaming. Before we get into it, are you gonna say are you gonna nail your colours to the mass straight away, or do you want to listen to the evidence?
SPEAKER_00:At the time, I certainly went very heavy one way. So Roy Keane favourite player. Uh yeah, I wouldn't have had it any other way at the time that Roy Keane was absolutely in the right. Uh yeah, we'll kind of discuss after after the maybe right at the end where I am now. It's not quite as clear as black and white anymore, I don't think.
SPEAKER_02:So you started off, I've done a lot of research into this. Um I mean, obviously we we're we're doing this to coincide with the film that I think came out last week, so we've messed that up. Um but yeah, so we we've coincided with the film uh that's coming button.
SPEAKER_00:But as well important to say as as expert rememberers, this is one we definitely both remember really vividly. This was a fantastic moment in time.
SPEAKER_02:One of our makes, Russell Paul Jones, said, Why don't you see the film first and then do the pod? But that's not how we roll because we think we can remember this better than the film, and I think the film will be dramatic d dramaticised.
SPEAKER_00:Is that the film might put a sort of spin on it we don't want at the minute, we just want to review the facts for now.
SPEAKER_02:We're all about the facts on this podcast. So he started off really the I mean it's it's goes back a long, long time this feud between Keane and MacArthur. Keane had criticised the Irish FA for being unprofessional and challenged both Jack Chalt and Amnick McArthur in a number of notable incidents. During the US tour in 1992, Keane and some other Irish players got hammered one night. Um when they got on the boss, MacArthur, he was captain of Ireland, wasn't happy, and he said to the then 19-year-old Keane, first trip, disgrace, to which Keane responded, First touch disgrace? That's a fucking scouter. Well, do you say first touch disgrace? Carriger, yeah. First touch disgrace. First, yeah, so he's taking the piss. Me and McCarthy got a lot of stick as a player. There's a brilliant clip of Brian Clough, um he's before Euro 88, and Brian Clough's going, um, I think they can get at the uh the young man at the back, Mick McCarthy. He's not very good. He goes, Well, you can't say that, Brian. He goes, I can, he's not very good, he's not a good player. So he gets a lot of stick, Nick McCarthy, even back in his playing days. I don't remember him ever playing, do you? No, not at all, no. I I only remember him as as a manager. I think he managed Millwall first, and then went went into the island job in 1996 after Jack Charlton failed to qualify for for uh Euro 96. So quite early. You think about he was still managing a couple of years ago. Been going a long time, hasn't he?
SPEAKER_00:He's always looked like is it Sesame Street? What's the yeah, what's his name? Ern not Erna. What's his name?
SPEAKER_02:Is it Erna?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't even mean them. We're not like an eagle or something, like uh, it's him with big head, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:What he looks like. Bert, Burt and Erna. Is it Bert and Erna? Burt and Erner, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:One of them's got like a little flat head.
SPEAKER_02:That's not the one I'm thinking of. Who are you thinking of? You've got your own.
SPEAKER_00:Try and do some live research.
SPEAKER_02:I put him in McCarthy, Sesame Street, a massive picture of David Bowie come up and he's uh Ziggest Aldus the Herer.
SPEAKER_00:Uh was it Sesame Street or Jim Henson or something? I don't know. There's like a yeah, I'll send it to you now. This is it. Put well, so send it in the chat or do you want do you want to find it? I'll send it in the chat.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, go on, send it in the chat.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think this is perfect look like by the way. I can't believe it's a channel. Who is it? Who is it? Uh it's called Sam Eagle.
SPEAKER_02:Let me have a look at this.
SPEAKER_00:Hang on a minute. Um It's coming in the chat now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't know if I've we've mentioned before, I'm not the greatest at technology. I've somehow just got a pretty good thing. I think it looks just like Sam Ernie. Oh yeah, it does look like him, but it does also look like is it Burt? Burt and Ernie. Is that no it's not Bertie?
SPEAKER_00:It's Ernie. You're talking about Ernie. Is it Ernie? Yeah, I'm not sure. Don't ask if it's Bert and Ernie again. We can't we can't just keep saying that. Who remembers when you kept asking if it were Bert and Ernie? It is Ernie though, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:I've just put with McCarthy. Right, we're getting rid of Ernie. You mean Ernie, yeah?
SPEAKER_00:You're talking about Ernie.
SPEAKER_02:Ernie. He basically is one of those sort of people who's obviously gone bold and he's refusing to accept the facts. I think that's pretty fair, innit, with McCarthy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's he's clinging on to what's left. But he's always looked like that to me though.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's always had like that sort of air. I don't think he's like age then. Anyway, right. There's that famous uh gift. You won't get this in the film, will you? Imagine like what's he called? Imagine that 20 minutes of the film. What's he called? Bert or Ernie?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, imagine that as a screenplay, like the script is 20 minutes of is he Bert or Ernie?
SPEAKER_02:Is he Burney? Nice, the Eagle Man.
SPEAKER_00:But there's that famous clip, innit, by the way, for anyone I'm sure it's really well seen now. We'll probably share it. Do you know when he gets frightened by nothing? Brilliant that.
SPEAKER_02:I thought there's three brilliant clips of him. There's that one where the camera closes in on him, you know, and he just turns around and smiles during a game. And then there's that other one where he's doing it, he's like stirring a cup of tea, and exactly the same. It pans up and he just looks at the camera and smiles.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'll share all three of those during the week.
SPEAKER_02:We will share all those. Uh when uh uh manager of Ireland McCarthy was an appear because Keene seemingly used to choose what games he would and wouldn't play for Ireland, which is I imagine very, very influenced by Sir Alex because he used to do that with quite a lot of players, didn't he? Because I think a lot of Wells fans aren't the biggest fans of Ryan Giggs because he used to do the same with them, didn't he? Ryan Giggs is just like turn up for certain games.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there was certainly like imp implied pressure from from Fergie, certainly for games that didn't matter that uh he just wasn't playing them. You're not fucking playing.
SPEAKER_02:What? You're not fucking that's Irish that's better of an Irish accent than a lot. I've got everything. I'm even wondering if we should start again. Jesus. We'll keep going. We'll keep going. Right. He missed the first he missed the second leg of the World Cup playoff against Iran, announcing on the day that he didn't want to play after carrying a knee injury. Um but they still got they managed to qualify anyway. McCarthy chose Saipan as somewhere for the players to relax before the serious training would begin in Japan. The pitch was covered in potholes and there was no training gear. Some members of the squad stayed up drinking regularly till 5 a.m. One training session ended with a game, but the goalkeepers Pat Bonner and Alan Kelly had already trained and didn't play. Imagine playing with no goalkeepers in a game. Professional teams.
SPEAKER_00:Is this actually at Sidepan? Are we talking now? Yeah, this is outside pan, yeah. So I I think you've skipped quite a bit there then. So now go on. So before the context before he'd actually got there that season, there's the I don't know if it was the Holland, there's red card controversy around him. He'd had some injuries and stuff going on around his contract, and it was said at the time that his mood was very dark heading into the World Cup. And uh apparently there were jokes amongst the Irish fans before the before the tournament that his intensity was so strong that the grass itself would stand to attention when he walked past. And then just to get there, so obviously I know you talked about the the goalkeeping issue, but when they first got to Saipan, so the first training session, there were no footballs, so they didn't have any balls, they didn't have any cones. Um and it said that on one of the early training sessions, whilst whilst Keane was training intently, a lot of the players were sunbathing drinking Coca-Cola.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like I say, they were all up until 5am drinking. I I think the the the moment it did flip though, as you were talking about, is the is is the goalkeeper thing because they had they played a game with no goalkeepers. Keane were furious. I had a go at Pat Bonner and Alan Kelly said they're not taking the World Cup seriously enough. I do think he's got a massive point in this.
SPEAKER_00:He has, and and as we'll come through this, that because of Keene's how he is, a lot of this the sort of Mick McCarthy side said ah, but he's always moaning. But if you actually strip it back to the situation, it's outrageous. I mean, this is a you know, this is not a sort of Sunday League football team, this is a national team with a fairly decent budget, I would imagine, that have turned up to just a complete shambles. I mean, I I don't actually have the the player who said it, I've just got to quote that players joked that the pitch was so bad, you'd be afraid to let your dog run over it, let alone your captain.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the in McCarthy's defence, yeah, I think you're right, but in what McCarthy would say is this was only chosen, this wasn't the the this was the initial training ground, this was used for somewhere for the players to relax before the serious training would begin in Japan where they were playing the game. So this is McCarthy saw this as a bit of a chill out zone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Football is is is a given, surely. Like if if I'd be disappointed if if I don't know, if we just went to the park and you'd not brought football or if I'd like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's ridiculous that would bring a football.
SPEAKER_00:Alright, we'll just sit and drink some Coca Cola.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and obviously Keane, the old school. Outrageous. And uh May the 22nd, Keane decided um that he were going home, but it would his mind changed by the physio Mick Byrne who managed to talk him round. But the but unless you've got anything before this, Liam, the right. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So May the 21st is actually when he did the uh the Irish Times interview. So that came out on the and he basically I mean he did did he have a habit of doing this because he called out some of the players at Man United, didn't he? It didn't go down well with Fergie.
SPEAKER_02:That was on Man United television. That was Man United Television, that was straight after he said, you know, you've got I don't think he mentioned Rio Ferdinand by name, but everyone he said something like you played well for 20 minutes against Tottenham and you think you've made it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So so obviously, you know, there was a I don't know if that was before or after this, probably presumably before, but it there was a precedent for him. This is the sort of the sort of the contradiction within Roy Key. So my my favourite player to ever play the game, I I love that mentality on the pitch. But I do think if any other player had gone and spoke to the press, he'd be absolutely fuming. But but he obviously thought as captain things weren't good enough, it wasn't being taken seriously enough within the camp. So he was going to make this public.
SPEAKER_02:So it it immediately kind of caused massive waves and uh yeah, the not just that, he in the Irish Times interview he told the Irish Times he'd be quitting international football basically because they set out a shambles, but he'd not told Nick McCarthy about this at all, he'd not said this is my last World Cup, he'd gone to the press about it, which I think there's a couple of things here that are wrong though, because you should have told McCarthy first, you should tell your manager, look, I I'm I'm quitting at the end of this, you know what I mean, or whatever. But McCarthy held up the article in the middle of a team meeting and said, What's all this about, Roy? What's all what what what were we trying to do there, you think?
SPEAKER_00:Trying to like assert authority on the situation, yeah, and basically I think what what the hope was if I sort of do this publicly as in not not general public, but as in a team meeting, that he'll almost be forced to back down. That he'll sort of have to say, Yeah, sorry guys, perhaps perhaps that's not the right way to have done this. But I think anyone who sort of know knows anything about Roy Keane, it it just made him double down even harder. That's there was no there was no positive outcome of this. McCarthy could have had a one-to-one blazing round with him. He could have he could have apologised if he thought, yeah, you're right in some of what you said, Roy. We do need to address some of this, let's work together. We're not best mates, but maybe we can make this better. I I don't know. I don't know if Roy had already made his mind up, but as soon as he as soon as he held the article up in a team meeting, anyone who thought Roy Keane was then gonna back down from that, obviously, and and he's you know, Mick McCarthy spent loads of time around Roy Keane. I can't believe he expected anything different. I don't know how Roy Keene is a good thing. The way he's described, Roy Keane explodes.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I am gonna I'm not gonna do the accent because this is a apparently this is from different um eyewitnesses at the time. This is what he said. Mick well basically Mick McCarthy first off sort of said that Well he accused Keane of faking injury in that second leg that I spoke about against Iran. He said that he could have played in that, and then Keane, that was the final, that was a spark basically. And Keane said, Mick, you're a liar, you're a fucking wanker. I didn't rate you as a player, and I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a fucking wanker, and you can stick the fucking World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is you're somehow the manager of my country. You can stick it up your bollocks. He also said he was an incompetent con man, and he used to turn up to squads late so we didn't have to be around him, and then finish by calling him an English con.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean it's it's kind of like that's it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Like what what how do you I'd love to have seen McCarthy's face after this is going off? Like did he like try and argue back or did he just have that gormless expression?
SPEAKER_00:I mean uh what what could you say? I mean, the only thing I suppose you could say is Mick McCarthy is look, you're the best player in the squadroy, unfortunately you're the biggest dickhead, and you drag us all down with your negativity and your mentality. And and yeah, some of what you're saying is right, but the way you've done it is pathetic. Fine, you know, let's let's agree to disagree, go on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let's agree. It's a good performance. Um, but yeah, I I think like I mean that is a terrain of like Malcolm Tucker standard, isn't it? You're a fucking wanker, you can stick, you will cup up your arse. Well, I think what it shows as well don't rate you as a player, a manager, or a person. I don't know if I've ever gotten it.
SPEAKER_00:I think you've been free writing that in his head for probably for months, but certainly for 24 hours, like probably for 24 years, whatever after when he first said that disgrace, like 1992, whatever that was. But I think that's that's a build-up of someone who's thought, you know what, one day I'm gonna give it in both barrels and I'm gonna say this, this, this, and this. That's you're thinking on the spot, you forget things, you get stuff wrong. That that's kind of almost too articulate for when you're absolutely raging, you don't always get everything right, but he says everything he seemingly wants to say in that one moment.
SPEAKER_02:But what I don't get with that is is I can't obviously I don't know Mick McCarthy personally. I don't know how anybody I don't know how Mick McCarthy's wound you up that much, if you know what I mean. I can imagine it being frustrated. We've all had managers at work, but you think this guy has not got a clue what he's doing.
SPEAKER_00:So he doesn't like Mick McCarthy. So that's that's a start. But but his frustration isn't with Mick McCarthy. His frustration is probably the fact that he's playing for a nation who seemingly turned up for a jolly boy's outing rather than.
SPEAKER_01:Well you always say, ah, we're here for the crack. Yeah, we're here for the crack of the Irish, you know. We're not we're not gonna win the thing, you know, we're here for the crack.
SPEAKER_00:And this is a player who, if playing for England, Italy, France, you know, probably would have won things international level, but not England. Well, I don't know, I don't know if he'd have been a difference in some of the games, but but in this setup, and like you say, I'm I'm not knocking it. Like I my uncle went to USA 94 with the team, he he knew uh Eddie McGoldric, so he was uh he was on the tour bus for bits of it, and yeah, they did go and have a good time, and that is part of their identity. But I think Keene is such a ruthless professional, it's just clearly built for years and years, and and he's just not happy with the fact that they're not serious about winning things, and combine that with the fact that then at club level, you know, he's he's winning trophies, he's he's had a super successful career, and just you know, probably everything's the best of the best at Man United, not now, but it was then, and he's turning up to like people laying in a car park drinking Coca-Cola. Yeah, I I can absolutely see the frustration. Yeah, but for McCarthy to kind of almost put him on the spot and say, right, let's go head to head then. It's like okay, no problem.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know how McCarthy thought he was gonna win that. Uh I don't think I've with but we both have arguments and stuff like that. Everyone's been in an argument. I'm not sure if I've heard in the flesh a character assassination like that, though. Like, like you say, he must have, like you said, he'd build it up for years and years and years in his head. Every it is basically like it's every I can imagine it must have hurt McCarthy. And obviously he's a he's a a professional and he's a leader and all that sort of stuff, but that must have your best player has that little respect for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and the sort of you know, you're a liar. I've never liked you, you're a wanker. Like it's it's not you're not good enough for this job, mate. You know, you you might be a nice bloke, but you but you're dreadful. You know everything about him. Yeah, it's just your whole character. You you look like the fucking eagle. Fucking eagle from Sesame Street.
SPEAKER_02:You're not like imagine if we're up for age, you're not like him, but uh what's which one is it again?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which one is it again? Is it burger, aren't he? Gary Brigwin.
SPEAKER_02:I I think it's Ernie. Steve Stalter. No, I think I don't think it is. I think it's the eagle.
SPEAKER_00:Dennis was a burger, aren't he?
SPEAKER_02:Imagine that. Can you imagine like Tony Cascarino just had a little bit of a little bit of a little bit carthy saying?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's Ernie.
SPEAKER_02:I think I think it's Ernie, I think. When he called him an English cunt though, I bet my c I bet Tony Cascarino were like you know, like putting his head down because obviously uh since K Malay has no Irish blood in him, didn't he? Did he at all? He just lied basically to be going after. There would have been a few in there, one day. Yeah, McAtee are in there. There's a couple of them that had a bit like like I said Ray Howton. Um Ray Harton was Scottish, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Townsend, uh Townsend, Cotwell. Oh my madman. What's um can you hear me?
SPEAKER_02:Jason Cunday?
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, yeah, of course not. He wouldn't have been with it. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me, Mick? You've just one hell of a beating. Can you hear me no training balls?
SPEAKER_02:Can you hear me no? Can you hear me, Coca-Cola drinking? Have you um why did you think Jason Cundi were Irish? Because I think there's another Talk Sport presenter that I was trying to think of, but it's not. You're not getting mixed up with Townsend. Listen, folks.
SPEAKER_00:No, because the Townsend, there's a Ray Howton, but I know he's not in Townsend.
SPEAKER_02:Ray Howton, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I don't know. I I really can't think. Yeah, a lot of them went. Tony Cascarino, that's what I was trying to think of.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's what I meant to bloody start with, Tony Cascarino. Ridiculous, ridiculous. So McCarthy, apparently, just at the end of that tire, just said, if you've got no respect for me, you can leave. Which Keane did. McCarthy then held a press conference saying that he'd sent Keene home. And I I've looked at, I don't know if you saw the so I don't I think you must have watched a documentary before we started this or whatever. But I watched a documentary and it would showed you like a it was like a 10 minute phone in uh on Irish radio. I don't know what exactly what channel. Some unbelievable phone calls about this. One guy phones in and says the government needs to call a referendum now on who's right. Mick McCarthy or Roy Key. Who do they think it'd have won?
SPEAKER_00:Well apparently the nation was split as to you know kind of where where they were.
SPEAKER_02:It'd be like Brexit again though, wasn't it? Like everyone just arguing it like ruined life.
SPEAKER_00:They had uh so Bertie O'Hearn was the Irish Prime Minister and people wanted to get him involved. He he tried to get involved at some point. There's a newspaper, I don't know if it's a front page or just part of an article, but they put uh a hearn Bertie O'Hearn in a a UN peacekeeping suit and he was trying to separate the two McCarthy and Keene.
SPEAKER_02:There's one great call when he goes, uh it's ripped our family apart. You know, I I have not spoken to my brother since it's happened. Like, what? It's just imagine I can't imagine, imagine me and you arguing about in this era, Svengo and Erickson having an argument with David Beckham, and you've got and they're going, I can't I just can't speak to you if you defend me back to him since I hadn't spoken to my brother since like.
SPEAKER_00:I mean there's stuff and I've not looked in because I'm doing this predominantly remembering with just a couple of notes, but I seem to remember Keane he actually went and called out a few of the players individually because he thought in that meeting that at least some of the players would would back him up. I think I think particularly like he went and saw Alan Kelly, I think, and said, you know, you you've had a lot of the same complaints as me and you didn't say a word in there.
SPEAKER_02:I think Alan Kelly did apologise to him and said, Yeah, I'm sorry, Roy, I just I just didn't I didn't want to say Well none of them, none of Keane's teammates voiced their opinion, uh the support, should I say, for Keane during the meeting? Yeah, Dennis Irwin were was in that squad. I'm surprised he didn't stand up for Jay. Although he's quite sort of softly spoken. Well, this is the thing, would you? It says in his autobiography, Gary Breed and David Connolly visited his room after and apologised um and said they should have.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure Alan Kelly either went to his room or he went to his.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have heard the Alan Kelly thing as well.
SPEAKER_00:Apologised or sort of said, yeah, probably should have said something.
SPEAKER_02:Senior player Steve Staunton and Mal Quinn took the side of MacArthur uh and the uh the Irish uh FA. So I mean, I absolutely would have said something. Would you I'm about to ask you this, would you have stood up and say, he's right you know, Mick? Yeah, absolutely. Uh not mutually in your hands now. That means he's got a mutant in his eyes though, don't they?
SPEAKER_00:You're standing up as well. No, but I I I probably would have stood up and said, Roy, I don't agree with how you've done it. I agree with a lot of what you said. This, you know, some of this is pretty embarrassing, to be honest, mick. Roy, you've put us in a really awkward position here. I don't know how this ends, but you know, a lot of what he's saying is actually right. It's been really unprofessional this setup. I saw a comment about this, and uh I would have said that by the way, whilst laying on the floor with my sunglasses on, sipping Coca-Cola.
SPEAKER_02:Me and background, which one is it again that it looks like? Um I I um yeah, I saw one comment, I think sum this entire thing up where he said uh never has one man been so right and yet delivered it in such a wrong way. Like I think it could have been handled so much.
SPEAKER_00:I think it uh I mean the thing is though, what we don't know is how many times did he try and raise this the proper way? And is that part of why he can't stand Mick McCarthy? But I mean it seems early in that. But how many times did he did he speak to someone at the the Irish FA or did he speak to McCarthy or McCarthy's assistants and say, Come on, guys, you know, you know, this is basic. Even if you go down to the local sports shop and buy 10 footballs, we've got to be able to play a game.
SPEAKER_02:Like how much I don't get that, like they have no balls, just come buy a ball. You're inside a pan, you're not in the middle of you know what I mean, you're not in a desert.
SPEAKER_00:This is the point. I I don't know kind of how much he had tried to say, right? Okay, you've been let down on a delivery, fine, but surely somebody can get a taxi and go and get some equipment. Like what and maybe you're not, maybe you're just sat seething waiting for a huge explosion. But yeah, we're we're not privy to that information, are we? How many times had he raised this as a concern?
SPEAKER_02:On the phone, by the way, there were one woman who starts crying, there's a brilliant call, and it's just like the the last call, and it only says it shows you this bit. He goes, I tell you one thing now, I'll be supporting Cameroon in this World Cup, not Ireland. Oh, why Cameroon? I'll be supporting Cameroon in this World Cup, not Ireland. But this is what the bit I remember now. Obviously, we weren't privy to the build-up of this real life. We you know, I especially being England fans. I know that they go around the camps and stuff, you know, in the we're moving past the people trying to get him to come back.
SPEAKER_00:Have we we have to do that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, well, I mean the they did try and get him to come back, but I think this came after this. So we'd gone home, he'd he'd had his routed what and you remember how many times he were on the news walking his dog. Yeah, yeah, all the time. This was the main news in England, by the way, as well. Where if you if you're too young to remember, this was like the main headline. Yeah, and it just didn't speak, just swaggering down the street, wasn't he? Like looking really angry. I think he jumps over a fence at one point, like with one one jump. It was like every day you're walking down the same street. Roy, you're coming back. Roy, what's happening? Roy.
SPEAKER_00:Apparently, there was a tongue-in-cheek ad not ad campaign, but a campaign to say bring him home, which was like an ET. They sort of made him look like ET. He wants to go home. Yeah, yeah. So apparently, some pubs uh put up signs at a time in Ireland saying we're closed until Roy returns. And it's still close to this day.
SPEAKER_02:Imagine our business, like terrible business idea.
SPEAKER_00:I can imagine him putting that up though, and then about five seconds later, like, I don't know, no, we're open again now.
SPEAKER_02:I can imagine, like, yeah, we're closed. And the reporter comes back five minutes later and he's like, ding ding, ding ding, Irish music live out and out. Uh Keene did a TV interview. This is where you're talking about, I think, about maybe you could have come back, where he basically doubled down, criticising the standards, but he did end the interview by saying, I still want to play for Ireland. And then they said something like, you know, is that are you willing to come back then? And he said, I still want to play for Ireland. And then McCarthy said, I'd have Keane back if he apologised.
SPEAKER_00:So there was a there was a door there, weren't there?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I think as well, the interesting at the time, apparently the the players were getting questioned by the the reporters. Are you Team Roy or Team Mick?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's a brilliant uh sorry, scene of Nial Quinn with his head down, like just looking so depressed.
SPEAKER_00:Apparently said it was like a funeral of a couple of sessions after that. But yeah, apparently a player responded, I'm team, please leave me alone.
SPEAKER_02:I think the person who came out most in support was uh Steve Staunton from Mick MacArthur. He was very like I think he was pissed off with Roy Keane for doing what he did. Very uh, yeah, very much team mate. But I think Nal Quinn was supposed to be the team the peacemaker. Obviously, Nal Quinn later appointed him as Sunderland manager when he was Sunderland chairman. Um but he was the one, I think he was in the middle, and he looks so pained throughout this entire ordeal. Every time you see the players go off the coach, he's got he looks so depressed, Nal Quinn. He's got his head down white.
SPEAKER_00:Regardless of right or wrong, you've lost your best player. And and there's a strong argument that you replace Mick McCarthy with another manager, and you don't necessarily weaken the team, you take out Roy Keane and you absolutely do.
SPEAKER_02:So But I think if you set the this is the thing. I mean, Roy it's what happened in the end is Mick McCarthy basically went, they sent an ultimatum to the squad and said, Do you want me or Roy? And the players unanimously backed Mick McCarthy and actually issued a statement backing him all. But I think if you let's what would you do in that instance?
SPEAKER_00:If the players had said Roy, what does that where does that leave him then?
SPEAKER_02:If half the players are like, You're on bench, son, you're on bench today. Why? Well, I've just had, aren't you? Nothing to do with me picking Royal. The only way that would have worked is if the whole team said to each other let's let's put Roy and then he's he's gonna have to make a decision while I'm walking away but Imagine that all of them put uh Roy except Staunton but the thing is though that it's difficult because if if you're saying you're probably right, Roy Keane were bigger for Ireland than Mick McCarthy was, but you can't let a player I would have said you can you can't let a player dictate who's the manager just because he's kicking off, just because he's the best player, you may as well have Roy Keane as manager then because what about if the next guy comes in and says I'm not like him as well.
SPEAKER_00:But what you could do is you could say I can't Roy, I uh just like you can't stand me, I can't stand you. I think this article is incredibly unprofessional. Yeah, I think it's a bit of a disgrace. I I would imagine a lot of your teammates are feeling a bit let down by what you've said, but you're our best player, so you know let's just get on with it for this tournament.
SPEAKER_02:I think he handled it really badly, McCarthy. I think McKean obviously did. Keane, as you said, we don't know behind the scenes, but Keene could just go in and give that character assassination. I don't think there's any real sorry, go on.
SPEAKER_00:I I don't know if anyone has asked him recently, but I think McCarthy might say, Well, yeah, might I might do that a bit different. I think Keane would do everything exactly the same as as well.
SPEAKER_01:Well Keane actually did I mean I'll get I'll I'll get to that in a bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he he actually did say I should have put my personal issues aside with McCarthy for the sake of the country. So they're a little bit of regret. He says like it might have been nice to be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But he said it's the biggest regret of his playing career. He said it let his family were so disappointed that he never played in a World Cup for uh well sorry he didn't play in this World Cup for Ireland.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's interesting, because I mean I don't think they were a success without him, would they?
SPEAKER_02:I mean the I don't know, because that's that's gotta be the third they got to the second round of the city.
SPEAKER_00:They got to last 16, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's last sixteen, so that's gotta be the third they've been since. I don't think they've been as far as that since, have they?
SPEAKER_00:No, yeah, I suppose I suppose so, yeah. Well I mean there's an argument, isn't there, that uh Yes they lost the best player, but but they became sort of galvanised in what was left in a in a way that they could never replicate again. Um they reckon they're the Irish teams the Irish team spirit was so strong because they were united in one thing they all agreed on, never mention Saipan again. So it kind of gave them this We're not talking about it, we're not talking about it, alright? Yeah, it gave them this this thing, this moment to sort of unify behind and yeah. I mean, I I suppose actually when I'm now I'm thinking about it, the last 16 of the World Cup is actually a really good achievement.
SPEAKER_02:So it's the second best ever one joint second best ever um achievement at a World Cup for Republic of Ireland, and they lost on penalty to split penalties to Spain. If they'd have what beat them, they'd have got South Korea in the quarterfinals. Who knows? They could have maybe got to if Roy Keen had been there, could they have got to the semi-finals?
SPEAKER_00:I mean it's impossible to say, isn't it? Because obviously Roy Keen at Man United, like performances like the Juventus and I I don't know, like he could lift a team of excellent players. I I don't know if his presence in this team makes him better or worse. I can't kind of hand on heart say. I don't I don't know. I don't know if they were better without him and just embracing that we're here for the crack and they that made them better. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but so they they went out in the last 16, but I think McCarthy to some degree was I won't say vindicated, but he came out. I don't think he came out of that with his reputation. I think Keene's reputation was harmed more than McCarthy's immediately after personally.
SPEAKER_00:I think if they've gone out straight away, they got beaten in all the group games, then yeah, McCarthy's the fool and Roy Keene is the sort of you know, please, Roy, come back and sort this out. Yeah, I think where they got to kind of not losing to penalties to Spain is not it's not a bad thing. No, absolutely no shame. No, no. I mean it's yeah, it's it it probably Keane watching it probably thinks ah shit, they did better than I thought they would actually.
SPEAKER_02:Uh well McCarthy actually though resigned just four months after the World Cup after two defeats in the uh Euro qualifiers to Russia and Switzerland and he and he and he resigned. Um and not so long after that, Roy Keane released his first autobiography, I think. And he said in that that um the former national team coach could rot in hell for all he cares. Uh so by that point there were absolutely no you know love loss between them. But then Brian Kerr became team manager of Ireland and and Keane returned, which I didn't I've always thought this were Keane's last hurrah in international football. I didn't realise he'd come back once McCarthy left. I mean it's obvious, but I didn't realise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and he yeah, I think it's it took his tally up to 67 in the end.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 67 caps for since 1991, which is a good I mean, is it for the best player that uh arguably they ever had. I mean, I that that's a massive shout.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't see Liam Brady and stuff, but the best player that Fergie probably prevented from playing double true. You know, that that could have been double of any any game that wasn't important, and I suspect even the important games, Fergie being in his ear saying, I'll fucking leave that one, right? Fucking leave it. He's not Northern Irish, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02:That's awful today. But by 2006, which bearing in mind by the way, this was only four years after the Cypad incident. Uh 2006, Keene um settled Keen and McCarthy settled the differences with the phone call ahead of the match uh between Wolverhampton and I didn't know that until came to the notes for this this episode.
SPEAKER_00:I wasn't aware of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, McCarthy's Wolverhampton Wanderers and Keen Sunderland, and and they were very and they they had a handshake, and I remember seeing that handshake, um, sort of like being a big thing, oh my god, the friends again. But I have seen Mick McCarthy interviewed post that and you can see it's still a really bitter thing. I think it was one of the worst I think he does describe it as the worst time, worst moment of his career.
SPEAKER_00:Because obviously I think the thing is Keane can can possibly forgive McCarthy for being unprofessional. I think it's very hard for McCarthy to forgive Keane for for pulling him out on a personal level. I think that that's the thing.
SPEAKER_02:This is why I do have a lot of sympathy for him. But the fact that McCarthy said if he apologises, he can come back. I don't know if I'd accept that apology if someone would have said to me, I hate everything about you, to the point where I've I've avoided you for years. Can you imagine saying that to someone and saying if you apologise, mate, but you know, bygones be bygones? I think McCarthy didn't handle it, didn't handle it well, but I don't think he deserved that attack on him, really, as a person, maybe as a professional, but not as a person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, agreed. I it's yeah, it's a difficult one, because as I say, particularly at the time, I was absolutely 100% team Roy Keane, and I just thought McCarthy was a bit of a clown. I mean, uh to a certain extent I still think he is, but I don't think that makes him a bad person, and yeah, uh sort of looking back on it, it's a bit it's a bit unpleasant to hear it, isn't it? Like it's not it's one thing to call someone out for not doing the job right, it's another to call them out for disliking everything about them.
SPEAKER_02:That is a mad thing to say about somebody. But uh obviously Keane did go into management after this himself and find out it wasn't as as easy. I don't think he's got the worst managerial career. People talk about Roy Key as if he were an absolute disaster at manager uh as a manager. He did take Sunderland up. Um he spent a lot of money, but he did keep him up, and then he he had a poor time with the Ipswich, but it was just mid-table, it wasn't you know a huge disaster.
SPEAKER_00:Remember when uh he found it was interesting getting Robbie Savage and he answered with a what famously with a imagine if he found McCarthy and he'd done that. What's up?
SPEAKER_02:That was just I'm not having that. Um but I think Keene pretty soon after this moved on to even bigger rows. I got the I get the McCarthy will have fallen out with people. Keane just seemed to go in a series. He obviously I think he probably hates Ferguson more than McCarthy now. I don't know if you'd agree with that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, absolutely. I think he's got a massive be in his bonnet about Fergie and uh the ending of his journey at United, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02:And and again, the the thing with Keane is I think you've said this about me before, but like if he believes he's been wrong Is it that you're the best Irish player of the last 20 years?
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean it's up for debate, but yeah, no, I think like if he believes he's been wronged, then that that's it really. That the the book's closed, like that there's no there's no way back, and it doesn't mean that he can't deal with people again, but but once he's been wronged then that's it really. You've you've wronged him and you you will be forever sort of held accountable for it. So I'm more Mick McCarthy, you're more Roy Keane. I think that's what we say. Well I I've actually come to a much more sort of sitting on the fence. No, I don't mean in I just mean his people. Alright. Uh yeah, I'm I'm a I'm an elite serial winner, and you're uh Mick McCarthy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well I I get scared quite easily like he doesn't that thing as well. But Roykin obviously had loads of arguments. He became the assistant manager of Ireland, obviously, um years later to Martin O'Neill, and that didn't go that well, I don't think, did it? The Republic of Ireland uh I don't know, I don't think it was a disaster. No, I don't think it was a disaster, but they'd never got I mean Mick McCarthy obviously I think Mick McCarthy took the job after, didn't he? Actually, thinking about it. Martin O'Neill left and Mick McCarthy became the.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's not gonna bow down. He's not gonna meet him in that sort of physical intimidation sense, he's just gonna talk him to death with well actually, actually, right? No, I I don't agree. I don't agree. Like, I think all through the night he'd just be arguing with him.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I like I say, I'm I used to watch a lot of Ireland at this time because we had a lot of players of Sheffield United there, like Egan and Margoldric and Ender Stevens, and I'm sure there were more than that. And I used to watch a lot of. No, I'm not about when McKean and O'Neill were running the show. Sorry, sorry, and then they went to McCarthy. And it's I I've always had a soft spot for Ireland because they were in you we might do USA 94 as the World Cup, we might do a World Cup special or something. But England, the the first World Cup I remember in terms of I I got into Italian IT as it was happening. The first World Cup I remember like being excited for before England weren't in it, and the closest he had was Republic of Ireland because obviously they were the you know the time I had the I bought the shirt, the Republic of Ireland shirt and stuff. So I've always got a is that the one you think I went on to lose? I've got two, but that that's not the one actually. You've lost another one. You might have lost the the Saipan one, actually. Maybe we should get into an argument. You're fucking Nickma shirt, you're a fucking jump, you're an English cunt.
SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, I at least next time we're in triple point, you should hold up a picture like that proves that you gave me that island shirt and it's gone missing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, it's gone missing, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so um I I've all I think out of all the the international teams, they're them and Cameroon are the ones that I have a soft spot for. Um and it's you know, they might be back in it this year, Liam. The Irish, they've they're in a playoff, they might be they might be back in it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I mean obviously I'd love to see them there. I again no, it's a tough one, isn't it? Because you don't want to see them there just to get beat. I think.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think another thing Keane when they qualified for the last Euros they qualified for, which were ooh, the one before Euro 2016, I think it was whatever it was. Trapetonian were manager of Ireland, and Keene went mad about how they were just going there for the crack, and it were very I don't know if you remember this. Keenan like at half time were saying they're just happy to be here, it's ridiculous because they got battered by Italy and Germany or whatever it was. Um, and Traperoni turned around and said something along the lines of, Well, let's have a look at your managerial career then. And they had a bit of a row about it, and Keene, even then, is obviously still really angry about how unprofessional he feels Ireland take the World Cups.
SPEAKER_00:And I mean, there's a certain extent of that that's that's their character that you know they'll they'll go and have a bit of banter with anyone that they will have good fun, they will have a drink when they're there. I I don't think they need to abandon that, but I think that it's one thing for the fan base to have that feeling, it's it's very different for the players to have that feeling. That the players should be there to get as far as they can get, and I'm sure they are, but I think somebody like Keane hates that perception that oh we're here for the crack, win or lose, having a booze.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it hate bloody man at being a Scotland squad, wouldn't it? Yeah. Think they're unprofessional, but I think they have got some good players and they've had good players in the past and never never quite Ireland's got further than them every single time they've been in it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's there's some crossover, though, isn't there, between a sort of Irish and Scotch mentality. I think um Ferguson Keane. I don't know, so so we're we're ending this then, are we?
SPEAKER_02:We're saying both handled it badly. I think Roy Keane was right to raise concerns, more than right to raise raise concerns.
SPEAKER_00:Right to go to the press. Assuming he possibly had raised some concerns in that way.
SPEAKER_02:If he'd already raised, yeah, if he'd raised concerns in the right way, I think if it were me and I were that bothered, I'd say, mate, can I have a quick word? I am because he's the team captain, he's allowed to do it. He'd say, What the fuck's going on, mate? Like, really, I'm not gonna I'd have said, like, I'm not saying in front of all the lads, but it's he might have done this. This is ridiculous. We've got no footballs, and Mick McCarthy could have turned around and said, Look, this is just the pre, you know, that we're gonna get serious trading. And Keene could have said, I don't think that's right. And they could have had a proper discussion about it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and McCarthy could have said as well, Roy, I'm more frustrated than you, I'm trying to manage this team, but this is what we've got, this is the setup we've been given. There's no point me moaning about it, that don't help the players, does it? Let's let's try but but then I suppose maybe in that instance, McCarthy should have gone to Keane first and said, as Captain Roy, I'm letting you know we've been let down on this, this, this, and this. We're gonna have to make the best of it. Again, we don't know if any of that happened or not. I I pure purely based on facts at the time I was 100% Roy Keane. I'm I'm probably 55% Keen now. I think it's it's almost 50-50. I'm still slightly leaning towards Keane being right. That's probably just my kind of affection for Keane as a player.
SPEAKER_02:No, I think that comment, like I said, that I read about it was it's the best example of someone being in the right and delivering it in the wrongest way possible. There's no excuse for what he said to McCarthy. You could absolutely have a got his professionalism, but to have a you know, to assassinate his character.
SPEAKER_00:Imagine if you turned up in a team meeting sat in that Sesame Street Eagle outfit, just sat down completely, sort of not made a deal of it, just sat in that.
SPEAKER_02:Steve Slaughter going, which one is he again? Is that Bert? No, no, no, it's not Steve. Forget about it. I'm just gonna end Liam while because I've just had a look with the play in the playoffs. I forgot it's Czech Republic. The uh the this is Friday 16th of January. Czech Republic manager describes Irish football as simple. That's it. So it is they've not lost that reputation of being uh uh yeah, but I don't think that's a dig, is it?
SPEAKER_00:I think football should be simple.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's a simple day.
SPEAKER_00:He's sort of suggesting Route 1, do you think? Long balls. Yeah, I think that's reputation, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't think he's probably happy about that, I said.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I hope they win. I hope they get through. Come on, uh baby boy byfield contender, Troy Parrot. Hopefully bangs a few in and he gets to the World Cup. But until then, Liam. I will see you next week for more beautiful remembering and better accents, hopefully, next time. That's your job.
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