Hoaxes That Fooled Millions

A fake alien autopsy gets treated like serious TV. Two Yorkshire girls “prove” fairies exist with a camera and a bit of paper. Crop circles appear across the UK and even the experts start saying humans couldn’t possibly have done it. If that already sounds familiar, it’s because the mechanics of a great hoax never really change, only the platforms do.

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Transcript

Welcome And Socials Banter

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to Who Remembers the UK Nostalgia Podcast? And in this week's episode, we are asking who remembers the hostess of four millions?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah, another title. I don't know if I'm happy with, but here we are.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Here we are. Yeah, well, you know, we're we're getting there. Um I'm saying before we did this, I'm trying to um put the top five John Inverdale clips together, and I'm I'm finding it really difficult. I don't know how these quality content creators um actually stick to it because it's just infuriating. Oh, honestly, if I can if I can manage to post it anywhere, because at the moment it's just saying cannot upload, you're in for a treat. Keep up keep your eye on the socials, Insta, maybe Twitter. I don't know if it'll upload on there. We're gonna get a website at one point and we'll put it on that. But I've looked into it twice and never followed up on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

So yeah, at some stage.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Maybe that's the hoax. Maybe that's the hoax. The website. This is the hoax.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Is this even a podcast?

What Counts As A Hoax

SPEAKER_00 1:37

We're not actually doing a podcast. We're not actually doing a podcast. Yeah, that's it. Well, that'd be good if the hoax with the Chapel St. Leonard thing, actually. You could have had that as uh one of your entries. It never actually happened, it never happened. Not this. Yeah, we never went. No way, we never went. This one was invented by a writer. Hoaxers, Liam! Hoaxers, hoaxes, hoaxes. Um I like a hoax. I've got actually got a book of hoaxes. You like a hoax? Oh, yeah, I love I think a good hoax. We we were a bit of hoaxes, weren't we? We worked at Sainsbury's, didn't you not think? I think we were a couple round has been a couple of hoaxes. Is a hoax and a prank interchangeable, do you think? Yeah, I think so. One of mine's is like a more of a scam.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So I'm like Dave Vester.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah, I think it is. Oh no, Barbara. I think that um a good hoax, if it's done right, is is genius, I think. Like it's up there with one of the the the bro the one of the best things you can do if you if you can fool fool me once, you should have had we should have called it out, actually. Fool me once. You can't get fooled again. There's some of these, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Is a hoax do you think I I mean we've perhaps we should have looked this up. Um is a hoax kind of aimed. I think you could prank an individual. A hoax is kind of an attempt to fool the public, is that fair?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, I think that's right. It's it's more than just a prank, it's it's a it's a pure sort of fool the masses. Like I say, yeah, you're gonna fool the masses, and there's different reasons behind it as we'll get on to. I don't know what you've picked. Hit me with your number one, Liam. What's your first choice? Well, you want me to go straight in? Yeah, let's get straight into it. Top three favourite hoaxes. We're gonna pick three each, um, and we're then we'll decide out of the lot, actually, because that we like a bit of a decision on here. We're like we're not we're not afraid to make the big decisions, make the big calls. So we'll decide what was the best hoax out of the six that we talk about.

Channel 4’s Alien Autopsy

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Okay, so in true fashion, my research is appalling. Um, my first one is the alien autopsy. Ah, Rod. Do you have any memory of this? Well, well, I thought it were the the the alien body whether it's so sorry, it it claimed it was shown in the UK in on channel four. So a man believe it or not, I'm reading this. A man called Ray Santilli. I'd think I'd have been onto him from that. Ray Santilli. Well, just Ray Santilli, yeah. Santilli sounds silly? I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it. Uh it claimed and obtained real footage of an alien being dissected after the 1947 Roswell crash. He bought it from a retired US military cameraman. Uh, Channel 4 aired it as an actual documentary called Alien Autopsy Fact or Fiction.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

I didn't know this. I thought you're not talking about the 1950s.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

This is a 1995 Channel 4 show. Ah, right. I didn't know this one. Yeah, come on then. So millions of people watched it and people argued about it for years and years. Um obviously because it was uh it was shown in the 90s, but it was supposedly sort of footage from many years before. So it was quite grainy sort of VHS footage. Um there was sort of experts trying to trying to decide if it was real or not. Um I think the local the local, the national press, kind of no nobody knew. I mean, people kind of assumed this can't be real, but it it sort of seemed real. So yeah, I mean, in a real sense of a hoax, this was a hoax, but I'm not sure if this is part of the stipulation, but it it does come with a reveal. So yeah, oh yeah, all mine, uh all mine of of all well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Well, one of them maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I don't know if I'd leave that till the end, actually, but go on. So this 21 years later was actually the reveal where they admitted it was fake. Uh yeah, yeah, it's a lot of things. And although all through that time, obviously speculation was that it wasn't real, but nobody knew. Um, so it was uh it was like a let me just see what it says here. Yeah, so it actually showed it having organs removed and and sort of like obviously all grainy and all quite hard to make out. I think it yeah, it was it was done with latex sheep brains and animal organs. Um so yeah, this this one was shown. I mean, we I'm surprised you don't have any knowledge of it. I don't remember it really well. I certainly don't remember believing it. So I don't think it fooled me. But I don't know if that's just because uh I didn't watch it. If you don't watch it, you can't get fooled again.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah, you can't get fooled again. I don't know, I I don't remember this one. Uh one of the things we're gonna ask actually is do you think you'll have you'd have fallen for this? I'm not falling for this. Yeah, you channel as if it's only gonna be channel four when we've got this, by the way. I thought yeah, they've got the scoop of all the the the ho that you know, this we've actually like discovered new alien life. Get me the header, get me Phil Redmond to her um yeah. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

I'd like if everyone was scouse, if all the surgeons were scouses, you'd know it was Redmond involved, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Do you think there's anything?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

It's a bit like the Ghost Watch one, which we did in scary things from the past, uh, where a lot of people did find that seriously. So I got look, they did someone actually took their own life after watching Ghost Watch, um, because like they believed it that much and it scared them that much. This might have affected quite a few people, maybe, thinking that you know, oh my god, the aliens are here. I don't think it's quite as sort of threatening, is it?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

I mean, if if it if you do believe it's real, that they've crashed and we've got one of them. It's not like uh an invasion as such, is it? It's like No. One of our full ones. One nil to the humans, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

One of our uh the first podcast we ever did about 15 years ago, which we'll upload if we ever do a website, um, we did it with a man called Russell Paul Jones, we mentioned on here quite a lot. Um we asked him, didn't we? What would you would you let an alien into your house if he knocked on your door and said, Oh, can I come in for a bit? And he he said no, because he might name a DVD player.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Deadly serious as well. Yeah. Well, and we said as well, if an alien turned up at your door and said, Look, the authorities are after me, I'm not from this planet, I need you to look after me. What's the first thing you do? And he said he would check him for seams, didn't he?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah, yeah, checking it. Yeah, yeah, just to make sure he weren't being caught. So he's onto it straight away. So I don't think Mr. Paul Jones would have fallen for this one.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I mean, what I was thinking about this one though, is I I don't remember falling for it. Probably would have been when I was watching tele, so probably just I I would imagine that there was a group of people who fell for it. Maybe some of them kind of almost chose to in sort of mocked panic. Yeah, but I I think the general public didn't fall for this. I don't remember falling for it. Obviously, there's there's sort of more rumours these days about that there are files about encounters with aliens and things. Do you believe anything will ever come out or persuade you?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I don't know. I think I don't think I don't think the the uh this is maybe me, Matt Letitia would not be happy with what I'm about to say. David Ike certainly wouldn't be. I don't think the government are hiding the alien things from us, but that's not to say there's nothing out there. Do you know what I mean? I mean that's not to say that one more.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I thought you were gonna say, although to be fair, I would love this. I thought you were gonna say the government aren't hiding it from us, they are the government. Ooh, ho ho, now we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, this is the thing. I I I don't think there's any uh I just don't think people are hiding it. I think it's too big of a thing. But I do come out. I do, yeah, I do. But then again, who am I to you know what I mean? Who am I to deny people there?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

They're this this one I think we can safely say we we to our knowledge we didn't fall for it. In hindsight, we don't think we would have fallen for it. But but if you did, if you're listening and you think, oh yeah, god, I I thought that was absolutely genuine, let let us know.

Cottingley Fairies And Conan Doyle

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Let us know. Well, I'll tell you what, I'll go for another one that I don't think would have fallen for, and it's a really famous one. It's the Cottingley uh Cottingley Fairies. You remember the Cottingley Fairies? If people don't people might know it more as fairies at the bottom of the garden. So in 1917, uh Cottonley, a small village in West Yorkshire, two cousins, Elsie Wright, age 16, and Frances Griffith, just nine, borrowed their father's uh camera to head down to the bottom of their house. They were rich people, they had a big house. A little while later, they came back with a photograph that would eventually become one of the most famous images in paranormal history. And I'm sure you've seen I'm sure everyone must have seen this image, where it's a young girl on the grass surrounded by what appear to be fairies. You've seen the image, Liam.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, not recently, but as soon as you said this one, I knew exactly what you were talking about. Um you look at the images now and Yeah, but I think you've got to add context to this one. I I think when when this one was sort of first came out because where when was the reveal on this one?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Didn't didn't one of them on the deathbed say one of them said that one of the one of the uh one of the pictures was still true to the to the dying day, they said one of the girls' pictures. Sorry, one of the girls said, Yeah, the other one. I'll get to that at the end if you want while they've got the like you say, I do think the context here is that we're talking 1917, photography was still a bit magical, I think. People I think people trust a bit like AI now.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, people trust it.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

I think you were gonna say there, sorry, exactly what I was thinking, which is people thought what you got on a photo was just a true capture of what was there, the kind of picture that you could do, trickery and well, people might think here's another example of people in the old days being idiot, but let's not forget that a few years ago, quite a few people believed that picture of Jeremy Corbyn at a funeral procession, uh holding a newspaper wearing shorts and a t-shirt that says I love the IRA. I heart the IRA. Oh, yeah, I heart the IRA, and that's 2007, so that's 90 years after that. So let's not judge people. Might say, Oh, bloody these old people, uh, they didn't know anything, did they? People but genuinely believe that. We mentioned it before. It's it's one of my favourite ever images, not Jeremy Corbyn in it.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I think people still believe that I love the concept, like even if you think he's a sympathizer at the front of a march wearing that sort of white t-shirt. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

The rest of them are in like uh military gear, aren't they? They've got balaclavas on, they're like full and Jeremy Corbyn's got a like a made of white, like a Primark t-shirt, innit? I thought it's a blue one, but anyway, but yeah, but it's one of those t-shirts you get for ten pounds when you go, I love London or whatever. And it's I love the IRA. And he's holding a newspaper. Think how disrespectful that is at a funeral. Wandering his newspaper around. Anyway, after this, um after these pictures, the father wasn't convinced uh he dismissed it as uh cardboard drawings. He thought they'd made the drawings themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I mean the mum related to that, seeing as he got it absolutely spot on. He'd he'd obviously he'd seen the cardboard drawings. That's not a guess, is it?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

That's just him saying. Well, you say this, but his mum believed it, like fully, fully believed it, uh, and took it to the I'm gonna get this right, the the Theosophical Society, which is a group deeply interested in spiritualism and the supernatural, they saw these pictures not as a prank, but as proof of the supernatural, and they published the images in their journals, and this is how it spread. Um, so it spread far beyond Yorkshire because of this, but this is what the maddest thing about this, and as you say, you know, it's it's it's really 90 years ago, or wherever it was, hundreds years ago nearly now. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed in this, the the writer. What's funny about this is he created Sherlock Holmes, who's the world's most rational detective, and he believed that the these pictures of fairies at the bottom of the garden were real. He just came across these photos and he said he were absolutely 1000% convinced that they were genuine. I think uh it was Sherlock Holmes as an opium smoker as well, wasn't he? Well, I mean Arthur Conan Doyle's on something there. But there were other people, Margaret Milligan, who was an educational social reformer, and the novelist Henry De Vere, uh Stackpool, also believed the photos were genuine. Uh Arthur Conan Doyle actually uh published them in the Strand magazine in 1920 as evidence that fairies were real and the public went wild. A lot of people believed it, a lot of people were sceptical, but everyone were talking about this thing in the early 1920s, and a lot because a lot of people believe that these children could not pull off a hoax like this. They said, like, these nine years old.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I've seen the images, I I think obviously through through a modern rye eye, you think, Well, how on earth would you fall for that? But yeah, I I can believe back then I mean most people, most people probably didn't see pictures other than sort of the ones printed in the press, I would imagine. I don't know if that's right, but I can imagine falling for this back in the day as a as a a young naive chap thinking, God, I can't believe that. Do you think you know? That implies I'm saying I don't, but but I can't believe it in a way that I think maybe I do believe it.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I think I'm out of fallen for it.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

You you still believe in it.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

You still believe in it. I'm not believing it now. I'm just saying it'd be weird now. Thou do protest too much, I think. Um for decades the girls stuck to the story, uh, but they grew up and moved on with their lives. Um, it wasn't until the early 1980s, 60 years later, that Elsa, uh the the older one, finally admitted the truth that they used paper cutouts from a children's book and popped them up with hat pins. Um, but she said she was too embarrassed to admit the truth after Arthur Conan Doyle fell for it because she said, Two village kids and a brilliant man like Conan Doyle, we could only we could only keep quiet after that. But Frances, the other one, did claim until her death that one of the photos were real, not the first one, not the famous one, there's a fourth one. Um, and she claims that was an actual fairy. Elsie said she's talking dog shit. She didn't say that, obviously, but you know, that's what she was saying. But she took that to a group. You can't get away with that though, can you?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

You can't say, Yeah, three of them we cut out of books, but the other the other, honestly, trust me, the other one was a real fairy.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

But yeah, I know. And what makes this whole side so enduring is it's just two girls pissing about to entertain themselves, and hundred years later, we're talking about it on this worldwide podcast.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah, no, I th I think it's a a fantastic prank. I think it's it's yeah. It's one of them actually that I suppose just sort of technology ruined it. Like if it had sort of just those images had been lost and we'd never known that'd have just been passed down in folk law that actually, do you know what there was a particular garden where they did get some real picture fairies?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah. Yeah, and like I say, it was just two two lasses from Yorkshire messing around with the camera for their own. Didn't do it for money, didn't do it for fame, did it just for oh, tell you what, we'll tell them that these are real. They did it for love nor money. They did it for love nor money, and and you know, like I say, fair play to them. I like a good hoax, and this is one of the best ones, I think. Uh, over to you, Liam, for the number uh duh.

Crop Circles And The “Experts”

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Numero dos two. Um so this one I do remember actually. So this one is uh crop circles in the UK. Does it ring any bells to you?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Oh, big time, because this was um yeah, these were all over the place, weren't they, Crop Circle? Didn't Danny Dyer go investigate him at one point, not on his not off his own back, like just like I'm fucking gonna fucking sort his head. Danny Dyer. Did it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I don't imagine not being in his wheelhouse, but yeah, okay, I I don't know. Well mate, yeah. Fucking a fucking size of this one. The fucking mad alien bastards must have fucking gone metal. Um late 80s, early 90s, this really rose to prominence, so we were impressionable. There was a there was a crop field near me, actually. That I remember having some crop circles. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This were big dice. So apparently it it came out that there were two guys doing it, Doug Bauer and Dave Chorley, which is great. Dave games for practice.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Out of your mind.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, so they they admitted that a lot of particularly so where the main ones were done, and a lot of the intricate ones are Wiltshire, Hampshire, Dorset, and Somerset, so down south. And a lot of the kind of bigger sort of quite fancy ones that people took aerial pictures of, they admitted to doing. Um so 1991 they said, yeah, it was all us. So the there must have been loads of copycats and people doing it, which I find funny because it's like even though they were fooling a lot of people, a lot of other people were thinking, oh yeah, we'll just go and get in on this, we'll do that. They did it with really sort of rudimentary equipment, they had planks of wood, some string, and a measuring tape. But what I what I love about this is that obviously the public sometimes get reined in. There were actually experts at the time saying these were physically impossible for humans to create.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

That's mad. I love stuff like this. This is brilliant, this, because when you've got an expert going, nope, that absolutely like you want to you're not an expert then, are you?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

No, I mean, like I say, like when when you actually think all they did was just flatten grass in different dire well, like wheat in different directions with pieces of wood. I love that that like that there is no way this can be done with human technology, and it was done with wood and streak. We could have done this like in Stone Age times.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, uh like I said, because these weren't these weren't farmers themselves, were they? These weren't sort of No no, these were people.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I mean, actually they were they were damaging farmers' crops, but then some farmers cashed in on it and used to do tools to let people see them. Um so yeah, I I don't know. Like I would you class this as art? I think bank should be all over this. I think uh Buchanan certainly wouldn't it? Like you have to view it from a big thing. Oh yeah, try it yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Try try trying to crop circle yourself. What was his big thing? The uh when he used that overhead view thing, yeah, where he used like different jumpers and stuff. So this was I was am I wrong in thinking this were on the news in the 90s? This was like that new thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

This came late 80s, early 90s. This this became like really big news as to UFOs or leaving messages in fields. People were going to see him taking pictures of him. Obviously, farmers weren't happy, but like say some cashed in on it. Um people weren't sure if it was a signal, a landing site of a particular ship. Um people were saying the government were covering it up because they didn't want to talk about it, but obviously they they just saw some crops being flattened in a field. Um and yeah, I mean I don't know. This is a good one though. No, but this is a good one, though.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, this is a good one though, because I think that if you if you're fooling the experts, a bit like the the the one that we've just spoken about with the fairies, it Colin Dahl's not an expert, but he's a he's obviously a bright man. Do you know what I mean? And he he's not an idiot, and the and these people are fooling the experts. I think this is a proper contender to the best ever, this because it's good in a sense that I don't remember sort of thinking one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I don't remember as a kid when I heard about these things thinking, oh my god, aliens are coming down. I didn't really know what did it, and I remember people on the news saying it could be signs of aliens and not really sort of knowing how to process that. I I don't know if I if I felt for it or not. I just kind of thought that's interesting. I suppose when you've got experts saying these cannot be formed by humans, yeah, then that probably is like a a perfect example of a hoax, really. You've got the experts involved.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Yeah, that's that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

It's a bit like I don't know, so that must be like do you know these like alien experts or UFO experts? That is just them trying to justify a career, innit? Because what do they got they must have started doing nothing for years and then all of a sudden it's like oh yeah, brilliant. We can talk about these like yeah, I tell you what, they're not human, these it's a bit like the there's that Christian show.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

I can't remember what this is off where someone he gives look bananas show that there is a god and he peels it and he said, like, look, only pe only humans with or or monkeys or whatever with you know opposable hands could could peel this banana, it's clearly from God, and it'd be serious about it. And on the other end of that, Charles uh Charles Dickens, what's his name? Uh oh, come on. Dawkins. Dawkins. Um he cut out. I remember uh watching one of his you know, God don't exist, we're all gonna die horribly. And it's you know, there's nothing after you die shows that he used to do. And um, someone cut like a cow open or something, and they were basically saying, Look, if if if this were designed, this bit here would be a bit more up here, and blah blah blah. And he would delight clapping. He was like, Oh, that's it then, that's it, then that's proof. That's that's good enough for me, mate. Do you know what I mean? Like these people have already got these set ideas about what they all already want to do.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

The best example of that is the is it a nerve in the giraffe's neck, I think. Yeah, something it might have been that. I can't remember. It loops around a vertebrate in the neck, and obviously, as the neck's crowned through evolution, the the nerve now loops right the way down and back up the neck, and you say you wouldn't design that.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I I'm not we're not pro religion, we're not anti religion, we're just like we've we've solved evolution, we've we've solved life after death. But yeah, but basically the reason to bring it up is because it's sort everyone's got Their own entrenched, especially if you're that entrenched.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

And you're supposed to you know what if if you sort of if you think these are or were alien messages, what a great cover-up just to get a couple of blokes to come out and say, No, don't worry, it was us.

Milly Vanilli And The Lip Sync Scandal

SPEAKER_00 22:13

You're out of your mind. Um I'm gonna stick with the early 90s, Liam, but completely different. I weren't sure if this were classed as a hoax or a scandal, but I think it's both, and it is something I want to talk about on this podcast for ages actually. Millie, what do you know about Millie Vanilla, Liam?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, I don't have no idea. When you told me you were doing Millie Vanilli, I thought uh is that a pop star?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I I so it's late 80s, two young performers, Robert Palatus and Fab Morvan, burst onto the pop scene with big songs, but they were uh really like sort of hunky men and you know the debut album, you'll know, girl, you know it's true. Who, who, who, I love you. You know that. I think so, yeah. You've never heard you must have heard that.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

I don't know, you didn't go where I thought you were gonna go with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Girl, you know it's true. Anyway, they were everywhere. MTV, magazine.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

But they as a pair were were Millie Vanilli, were they?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

They were Millie Vanilla, those two people. Wow, listen to my not everything was as it seemed, Leah. Rob and Fab weren't actually the ones singing on the records. Um they didn't sin they didn't do a single bit of musicianship or sing a single note on any Milly Vanilli tracks. The real vocals came from studio uh singers hired by a producer called Frank Farrion. Um Rob and Fab Rob and Fab were chosen for their image because they could dance as well and because they had charisma, but they lip synced every single performance. So these two people actually didn't uh sing in Millivanilla at all. Any questions, Liam, so far? I don't find it as mind-blowing as I think you do. Listen, gets better. Um it don't really. Uh Robin Faber, uh what's mad about this, they they had really heavy German accents, um, but they had like really like clean singing English accents, obviously, on the song because it wasn't them singing. Now, well, the big thing that blew it apart was said to be an MTV performance where the backing trap malfunctioned. So do you know the girl you know, it's true. It just kept going, girl you know, it's girl you know, it's girl, you know. It's and one of them ran off stage and with like really embarrassed and panicked, didn't know what to do. So the industry started having doubts about but I don't know why they would, because a lot of people are lipsick even today, don't they? So, but anyway. That's where I was gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

I'd I yeah, but I suppose so. The difference is that it wasn't auto-tuned or or like them singing to a backing track, it just wasn't them at all.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

It wasn't them at all. So, despite the growing rumours, Mill Livingly won a 99 Grammy Award for Breast New Artist, which is a huge moment, but it put obviously even more pressure on the lie. Um, they didn't perform live, obviously, at the um the ceremony. They normally at those ceremonies you have to perform live, but they sang to a backing track again because they said that if they wanted to do the dances, they'd be too out of breath, so they let them get away with it. Behind the behind the curtains or behind the scenes, uh the the Miller Vanillier, the the the two lads had been badgering the mastermind behind the hoax, Frank Farrier. Can we please sing on some of our records? You know, can we please sing on them? Um and it basically pissed them off that much. Frank Farrier, they've just uh suddenly held a press conference in Munich where he said both members are fired and they haven't sung on any of their records, and it became out of nowhere, and the backlash was brutal because obviously the fans felt betrayed, the media mocked them, lawsuits piled up, they were obviously just a national joke or international joke, basically. Um, and the Grammy got taken off him, which was the first time that's ever happened. And I watched a press conference of these two young lads uh straight after they'd been sort of routed. I felt so sorry for him because obviously all the journalists are giving him steak, but one of them says, Look, we made a pact with the devil to escape poverty, but you know, we were really poor when someone offered us this chance and we took it. But it's not they didn't mastermind the hoax, they were young and inexperienced, and they got in in the words of Phil Collins, I know I love you, but you're in too deep. Once they got so big, they were too deep. Um, anyway, the record company dropped um deleted Gil, you know it's true from from its catalogue, which is that highest selling album ever to be deleted. Um from a yeah, from a catalogue. I don't know if it's back on Spotify or whatever now. Um in 1997, though, Miller Vanilla, this is mad though. They they got together with him again, uh, Frank Farrion, and did a comeback where they were actually going to sing their songs, but on the eve of the comeback tour, Palatus was found dead, age 33, alcohol and drug overdose in Germany. Um so yeah, a sad end, but a hoax that fooled the world for a few years to the point where they won a Grammy.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

I mean, I I like you say, I I don't know if anybody's watched uh it's more of a COVID thing, but has anyone watched uh the Tiger King? Do you know what I'm not saying? Not necessarily. Do you know who he is?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Uh is it Car not Carol Malone? Not Carol. Carol Malone's who might parry Mike Parry with it.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. Um well he he's like a country singer, yeah, but he's obviously not. Like he sort of stands on his bands and things playing his guitar, obviously not playing his guitar, and they've got some like country and western singer doing like uh ah man, like it's like it makes me think of that, ah can't stand Sarah ho. It's like that style of singing, yeah. He's obviously not singing, he can't sing, like but he's released albums and he sells them like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

And that's an interesting one, actually. If Glacier Hernandez is listening, could I'm doing this off the hoof, so I'm not sure about Michael Jackson. Um when he died, some people put some songs, yeah. People put some songs out on his um on like what you call. I thought you were gonna say weren't singing his songs. No, no, no. Well no, but I can't remember what you call them. Post people have died, an album to release after they've died anyway. Uh and they were like bonus tracks, and apparently there's like four or five of those that Michael Jackson doesn't sing on, and they just sort of put them on basically to fill up the fill up the album. But that's not Jackson's Jackson's fault, he's he's obviously gone, long gone.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

I I think Millie Vanilli probably would fool you because I don't think that's that uncommon that people are No, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Not doing their own singing, but I think Would you feel betrayed if like your favourite band, who I believe is Enya, um if it turned out she wasn't actually singing on the uh it's not my favourite band, but yeah, I I probably would be actually yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, who's your favourite band? Um that's a good question. It changes. I mean, right now Tom Jolly's put me back onto a bit of REM, so I'm backing to that.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

REM, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so if REM it said it's not Michael Stipe singing, it were actually some backing uh singers. Yeah, I would be disappointed, yeah. But weird, uh what a mad voice that'd be to do. And what a madness we we want him to look like this, like yeah, little man in a heart, little heart. Yeah, we want a bold man as a front man, but we also want him to have this really weird night swimming. Sort of like vocals like that. That'd be an amazing.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah, that we'll go. That one's like that, but it it must be sung by a small man and a small heart.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

It m yeah, it must be, yeah, it must be. A little bit. Anyway, what's what's your final one, Liam?

Denise Welch And Death Rumours

SPEAKER_01 29:30

My last one's a bit of a mad one, and you sent me a list of things you'd looked into, and that's what put it on my radar. I I think I'm kind of aware of it, but it just made me laugh when I read it. So this is the Denise Welch Death hoax. Yeah, every year on Twitter, every year on Twitter. So so multiple times apparently since the late 90s, and and it started off as a thing, but then it happened, there seemed to be a gap. So again, I'm live reading it, but late 90s and early 2000s, but then there's a gap till 2010. So so sorry, that's more just a thing about celebrity death hoaxes, that's not specific to the squirrels. So there's a rumour comes out seemingly every year that something along the lines of she's died suddenly, she's been in an accident, she collapsed on set, or she died of an unspecified illness. There's never a consistent story, which is very typical of hoaxes from the era. Uh, I mean, it says basically a 90s version of I saw it on Facebook, so it must be true. But is that what people say now? Is that what it means?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

I saw it on Facebook, so it must be true. I think like what it is with the uh yeah, because obviously, like when the the internet, when everyone was young and naive, uh with the internet, obviously when it first came out, I think maybe I don't know, did we believe stuff when people put in our because he's another one, isn't he? Uh Peter K, he's another one who often dies on on Twitter, and he he's not actually do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Well, the bit that made me laugh. So when I was typing in, uh tell me a bit about the Denise Waltz hoax to co-pilot, this is kind of its summary. So it said, here's the funny part, which I'm not sure apparently she does embrace it, but but I'm not sure she finds it funny. But anyway, uh the reason why it's funny, she is massively well known on TV constantly Coronation Street Soldier Soldier Loose Women. Soldier Soldier.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I don't remember being on Soldier Soldier, but yeah, gone.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

A tabloid favourite, this pops up in the tabloids, particularly in uh sort of drinking days, I think. And the kind of celebrity people felt that they knew. But then I like this bit. This made her a prime target for celebrity death rumor mill. The same thing that hit people like Mr. Blobby, Paul Chuckle, and Noel Edmonds.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

What a group to be in, that is I'm just looking now, the latest one is a bit single man. Someone's done a really, really good screenshot, and it says canal body confirmed as Denise Well. Yeah, and it's a sky news thing, and it looks like it looks genuine. And it is like people digging a body out of a canal. Yeah, someone's put underneath because this is absolutely sick. Um, she's had to put she put a thing out saying, I'm alive and well, and I'm just about to watch the jungle. Don't I should have had that? Uh, thanks for your concern. Uh, last year another fabricated story suggested she she died in a hot air balloon accident.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Apparently, she's laughed it off. She said the internet's killed her multiple times. She often only finds out about it when friends or family message or call her in a panic asking if everything's okay. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I mean, I do like these celebrity death auks because this it happens all the time now. Where if someone does die and it's a shock. Um, I don't know. I don't I don't know if before Twitter going back to Michael Jackson, for instance. If I read that, I wouldn't believe that. If someone said Michael Jackson's died, do you know what I mean? I mean, I'd be. Michael's a big thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

I remember so when would that have been? 2000 and when would he have died?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

2006, 2007, uh Jackson, uh 2009.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Oh wow, later than I thought. But I remember even as late as I getting up for work, it was about five in the morning, and my dad said to me, Michael Jackson's died. And I remember like thinking, oh my god, not one part of me thought, oh yeah, it says that on Twitter, but it won't be true. Well, Twitter probably weren't a thing then.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

But yeah, what I mean is that I think your dad would have woke you up one day and said, Liam, Liam, Denise Welsh has died.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, my dad just I didn't get a phone call at 4am. Liam, you're not gonna believe what's been found in a canal.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Denise Welsh has died. What? I'd love to do that to someone actually. We should do that as a prank. We should like record it.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I'll get him when we get his website or wake someone up at like 3am, you know, like shake him awake in the middle of the night with a light in the face.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I've got some really, really bad news. She's got something to tell you. Denise Welsh is gone. But we think we think so anyway. We think she's gone. She said so on something. Yeah, um.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

The last bit I've got to read out here is so it said why why it's great for your podcast. It also pairs nicely with the Paul Chuckle is dead rumour, the Mr. Bean died in a stunt accident. Hoax, Robbie Williams found dead, chain email, and the Ant and Deck died confusion that happens every few years.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Are any of those things real?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

I think you need to see a stun accident. I'll tell you what's a hoax, Copilot. It's ridiculous. Like, yeah, that's the hoax.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

I love that as a headline. Mr. Bean died in a stunt accident. I mean, his basic stunt he does. He drives his mini too fast at a three-wheeled car.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

That's how he died. And he's crafted in himself. Mr. Bean died. Mr. Bean died, yeah. Yeah, I look the death hoaxers, they're always a little bit. I look this is gonna sound a bit sick, this. We're probably there was a million fans here, but um do you get like a little bit of an excitement like when you hear like someone bigs died? It's like a bit of an adrenaline, not an excitement in a happy sense, like a sort of oh, that's that's oh I think there's a thing. I'm here for this.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Uh not necessarily find out somebody's died. I I think there's a there's a slightly sick thing that people do where they love to be the first to know. I I see people love to be the ones to post it in the group chat. So have you have you seen this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You seen this? Yeah, I mean I've I've done that even before, like where because because Jody and her dad tend to sort of like old actors that they used to like in films, they'll they'll let each other know. But I know it's they're always kind of keen to get in first. So I if I've seen it first, I'll make sure I I get in there first.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Competition, isn't it? Yeah, but I mean by excitement is it's like uh like when Bowie died, for instance, massive Bowie fan, and it gave me this like sort of oh, I can't believe I'm I'm in here for this. Like, I I don't know, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

I mean I think sort of creates David Bowie to the Welsh, but if it's a if it's a quite important I mean I remember Amy Winehouse when we were we were out that day uh in Sheffield at a beer festival or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

It might have been tram lines, no maybe anyway. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

I think when it's a a big star, it sort of creates a moment that you will remember forever. I think it it's like a that's it, that's right, yeah. It creates a bullet point in your life, doesn't it? So you've always got to be a little bit more. It creates a big moment. Did you remember that? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I do actually. I I was at this thing or doing that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Thinking like your life things, it goes getting married, having kids, where you were when Denise Welsh actually did die. I think if when that happens, you'll remember that, won't you?

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I wonder if it's one of them where do you know, like something like Avril Devine and that they said it being replaced. I wonder if like she's been replaced several times, Denise Welsh.

The Hitler Diaries Publishing Disaster

SPEAKER_00 36:46

There's a few, yeah, a few Denise Welsh has got a lot of time. I mean, I don't know, but I don't know much about Denise Welsh, you know. Um I don't think she went off the deep end during COVID and stuff. I think I remember reading. I might be wrong, might be putting her into a category there she doesn't deserve to be in. But yeah, so we see she used to go up with Kevin Webster on Coronation Street as well. Not the real life, you know. I mean, that were a stuck. Michael Lavelle. What did he uh what did he uh oh yeah, I forgot about that. He cheated on Sally Denise Wells. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and that were a good storyline. So, you know, I've got a lot of time for Denise Wells, so hopefully many, many years to come still. Uh I'm gonna move on to someone who's arguably um more evil, and that is Mr. Adolf Hitler now. So the Hitler diaries, Liam. Have you heard about this before?

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I've heard two different versions. No, I I'm kind of I don't quite know what what the Hitler diaries is. I I know the sort of rumour that supposedly escaped to South America and uh Yeah, but I think they're more conspiracies than hoaxes, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 37:49

So this is a genuine I might not know.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Is this a sort of standalone? Yeah, yeah, this is a hoaxer, not a conspiracy. Okay, so maybe I don't know this then.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

So this fooled a lot of people, like proper scholars of the game, too, historians, journalists, publishing houses. And this is a story of a con artist who convinced the world that he'd uncovered Adolf Hitler's private diaries. So in 1983, German magazine Stern um announced that it called the what it called the historical scoop of the century, and they'd obtained Hit Hitler's personal diaries, not just one diary, but 62 diaries written from 1932 to 1945. I'm really interested in it. You know what I mean? You would be like thinking, oh my god, what's that mean about? Massive efforts, I hope start.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Did he write all those diaries then?

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah, yeah, well, we'll get to it. It gets funnier, I think. The magazine claimed that the diaries had been recovered in a plane crash during the end of World War II and were secretly stored away for decades. Publishing World went into a frenzy. Major newspapers, book publishers scrambled to get the rights, millions of dollars were on the table to get you know the rights for these diaries. Uh, respected historians were brought in to authenticate the diaries, some of them, including Hugh Trevor Roper, who was one of the most prominent Hitler scholars of the time, initially said that these are genuine, these are definitely genuine. Um, the Times newspaper in the UK uh published the news that their sister paper, the Sunday Times, had the rights. Uh Rupert Murdoch were running the Times at this point, might still do, I don't know. Um, and this uh edition covered an extensive piece by this Trevor Opera historian, like Hitler expert, and he said, Yeah, this is this is one of the most important historical discoveries ever, because it's definitely true. But in reality, the diaries were the work of one man called Conrad Kujar. I might have got that wrong. K-U-J-A-W. Um, and it was a small time forger from uh I'm reading it as as Hitler would say, I think. A small time forger from Stutt uh Stuttgart with a talent for um a talent for emanation and a love of Natsy memorabilia.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah, I was gonna say it must have been pretty clued up then on the live story of Hitler, was it? Maybe it can't be imagine if it was just all like sort of fairly casual, like had a nice coffee today.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Well, yeah, yeah, honestly, honestly, you you're pretty much spot on here. So he didn't he just forged. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he didn't just forge his handwriting, he forged this is brilliant, this he forged doodles, like little like doodles it was doing and stuff like that. Um he aged the paper by staining the covers and he created an entire fictional archive. And Stern bought it all, um, paying him millions, this guy. And like you're right, that what's so good is about these diaries are so mundane, there's nothing in them, or barely anything in them at all, that's interesting. So he didn't it's clever in a way, because it means he didn't slip up, do you know, by getting an historical inaccuracy? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

All the pictures to no, we would just gotta be careful, like this could be in really bad taste, but like early on, like uh I don't even know if I could say it, it's outrageous. Uh no. Yeah, did did he sort of try and set the scene for why he might be getting fed up with certain things and why he's no, no, no, no, no. So you could write a sort of story as to why he went the way he did, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, well, he's on tally again. Yeah, well, I think um the thing is though, is that uh the the only time it had mentioned anything about the war were things such as I can't believe Churchill's still going and and Stalin, how does he do it? It's brilliant, but most of the writing are about his bad breath and having flatulence, it's just a true story there. This is what people bore, and having constant petty disputes for go Goebbels, he's left a telly on again. I don't know what's it coming out and he's not Phil Kellerlop who's I've told him that I don't have sugar in my tea, like every single like page was just that. But experts at the time, this is this is actually helped him because experts at the time this is a genuine quote from um uh an expert at the time who said nobody would spend so much time writing such crap.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, no, I think it's it's genius to sort of just write the nonsense because you you would think I would think when you said the Hitler diaries were fake, that that there'd be one diary that was supposedly written in a key moment that was all his thoughts about an invasion or or does he do this or does he do that?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

But I think the genius of that is yeah, to just write yeah, went to the shop today, didn't have any, didn't have any scones, couldn't believe it. When I watched, watched, watched catchphrase, and yeah, it'd be really if they're all like eightees references and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Roy Walker was fantastic today.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Yeah, Roy Walker were fantastic. And I got the catchphrase before the contestant. Mr. Chips was magnificent, yeah. It'd be absolutely fantastic. Uh well, uh a lot of skepticism sort of coming in after, and uh uh the day before the Sunday Times were going to publish the first diary that they paid obviously millions for. Um Giles, who was um I can't remember his first name, I've not written it down, forgive me for that. But the one of the editorial staff phoned us Trevor Opera, the Hitler expert, and said, Can you please write a piece just saying how the skepticism scepticism of the new diaries um you know it's it's nonsense and these are actual real. And he found that they story had made a 180-degree turn and then said no, they are actually fake the day before they were going. And Rupert Murdoch in his wisdom said, Fuck it, print them anyway. Yeah, I mean it's gonna sell papers, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So once uh doubts started properly like piling up, the West German Federal uh archive stepped to him and ran proper forensic tests, mad that they didn't do this before. Um, and this is where the whole thing collabs.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

I loved like the thought of this as like a journey into his mind, like just starts off as like a nice. It's gonna be a comedy, couldn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Dropped a large rock on my foot today. I'll try and remain happy.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, yeah, like uh it's just like little minor things need to do every day. Mr.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Google's next board is playing his music too loud again.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

I would not stand for this. I think uh have you ever seen the film uh Look who's back?

SPEAKER_01 43:57

I've seen Look who's talking.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

No, that's not about Hitler. Uh Lucky Who's Back, it's a comedy about Hitler uh is dropped into this um do you know what I mean? This was really, really good comedy. Yeah. Yeah, Lucky Who's Back. It's a German film. Anyway, the the paper um contained whitening chemicals that had not were first used in the fifties. The ink was modern and it hadn't fully dried into the paper, and the bindings were made with materials that were unavailable during the rise or whatever, the Third Reich.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

So within days, Hitler said this and then crossed it out, but I said this.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

I said this, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um it went from historic discovery to historic embarrassment. Um Stern held a press conference, historians backtracked, publishers panicked, and the diaries were officially declared fake. Uh the forger was arrested. Uh the journalist who bought the diaries for the Stern were was arrested. Um bit harsh. And the entire scandal became like a global punchline.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

It seemed like they uh arrested everyone except the actual Hitler.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah, exactly. If you wanted to done him first, but yeah, and the historians who obviously vouched for it and said that um it was real ended up in in public embarrassment.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I don't know, I'd be quite intrigued to read them, even knowing the fake, I think. Yeah, well, yeah. I I I I'd like to. Really dull. Yeah, just not nothing happens. No, I genuinely think like if they'd have put a different spin on them, if if they were done as fictional, that'd be quite interesting. The the the diaries of of kind of you know, like a tyrant, but actually not the the big events in their life, just the days.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, just little little minor things, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's yeah, that would be really good though. But like I say, he did it in a in a in that much of a boring way that everyone said, Oh yeah. I can't believe they left it that late the the to check all the ink and stuff before all the millions of dollars are you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah, but I don't know, I suppose they got a story out of it twice, didn't they? They they got to publish it and then they got to sort of publish the story of the fake Hitler diaries.

Best Hoax Pick And Farewell

SPEAKER_00 45:58

How we got it wrong, yeah. So that's the hoaxes, Leon. What's your favourite of the six hoaxes?

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Well, probably the last one. I I'll be honest, I I didn't like the Millie Vanilli one.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Yeah, fair play, fair play. I think the Hitler one I would have fell for if the one of the big histori Hitler uh historians of the day was saying, you know, um yeah, it's it's real. I think you you go with him, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I mean yeah, yeah. Crop circles are probably did think at a time that there was something odd there. But I don't yeah, I I don't know, I don't know if I necessarily thought alien ships, but I I I mean really if if the Hitler diaries I don't know, I don't know if you could have written it on sort of authentic paper and pens that actually is that what proved it wrong then? Just the actual Yeah, yeah, the bindings and stuff like that, yeah. They couldn't have been done.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

So if they've done it on old mailbooks with an older pen, they might have got they might have got away with it. Yeah, if we've got away with it, it weren't for that pesky pesky science. Pesky science, yeah. Thank you for that, Liam. Really, really good. We'll be back next week talking more uh that was a bit of remembering, I suppose. Like not one of our normal remembering sort of things, but something a bit different to throw into the park.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah, we've yeah, we think we've got something worth talking about, so we'll we'll be back with that. So thank you everyone for making it this far. If you have done, if you're not, you're not here anyway. See you later. Yeah, goodbye.

How To Contact Us

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Thank you for listening to Who Remembers. If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us at who rememberspod at outlook.com. If you are a right wing fascist, you can find us on Twitter at Who Remembers Pod. Or if you're a woke note, you can find us on Blue Sky at WhoRememberspod. Once again, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time for more remembering.