Company Secrets with Susan Jaffe: Directing American Ballet Theatre

In this episode, Jared sits down with the incomparable Susan Jaffe, Artistic Director of American Ballet Theatre and one of the most celebrated ballerinas of her generation. Declared by The New York Times as “America’s quintessential American ballerina,” Susan reflects on her extraordinary performing career, her leadership journey from the stage to the boardroom, and what it takes to sustain excellence in one of the world’s great ballet companies.

From shaping ABT’s 85th anniversary season to mentoring the next generation, Susan shares candid insights on artistic vision, mental resilience, and the qualities she looks for when hiring dancers. She also opens up about the importance of self-responsibility, positivity, and lifelong growth—wisdom for artists at every stage.

Transcript

Jared Redick (00:04)
Welcome to Company Secrets Ballet Unfiltered, the podcast where we pull back the curtain on the professional dance world. Each week, I sit down with artistic directors and industry leaders to have candid conversations about how dance companies really work, what they're looking for, how decisions get made, and what it takes to thrive. I'm your host, Jared Redick.

My guest today is Susan Jaffe, a person who needs no introduction, but I'm going to run it down anyway. She's the artistic director of American Ballet Theater and one of the most celebrated ballerinas of her generation. Declared by the New York Times as America's quintessential American ballerina, Susan spent over two decades as a principal dancer with ABT, as well as a guest principal with many of the world's leading companies, including the Royal Ballet, English National, and Stuttgart.

She performed just about every great classical principal role you can imagine and performed or worked with many of the 20th century's most prominent choreographers, including George Balanchine, Sir Kenneth McMillan, Jerome Robbins, Yuri Killian, Nacho Duado, and Twilight Tharp. After leaving the stage, she was a dance magazine awardee, was featured in multiple episodes of PBS's Dance in America series, co-founded and co-directed a school, wrote a children's book, choreographed for dance companies and universities.

and so much more before shaping the next generation of dancers as the Dean of Dance at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts, where we worked together for seven years. She left UNCSA to become artistic director of Pittsburgh Ballet Theater before taking the helm at ABT in 2022. Susan is a rare combination of artistry and leadership, a woman who worked her way to the top of the ballet world with intelligence and tenacity. I'm thankful to call her mentor and friend,

and thrilled to sit down with her today. Welcome, Susan.

Susan Jaffe (02:03)
Thank you so much and thank you for that beautiful introduction.

Jared Redick (02:06)
Absolutely. I'm just thrilled that you're here. We could find time. Can you tell me what a typical day looks like for you as artistic director?

Susan Jaffe (02:09)
Yeah, I'm very excited.

Oftentimes in the morning while I'm having my coffee, I will respond to emails that are urgent. And or I might send an email that I need to make sure I send it out before my day starts because usually my day is back to back between morning meetings. Of course, my executive director, production director, general manager, marketing, advancements, my staff, senior staff, and

board leadership and so many meetings in the morning. And then I go directly into rehearsals. And oftentimes the rehearsals just can go straight through, so seven hours straight without taking a break. Or sometimes I might have a 15 minute window to grab a bite or to have a quick meeting or something like that. So it's a pretty jam packed day. And then I try as much as I can to respond to emails and things.

by the end of the day.

Jared Redick (03:17)
And do you find that you have time to teach company class?

Susan Jaffe (03:20)
I was teaching company class, but I have been asked by my corps de ballet to be more in the corps de ballet rehearsals. So they want more just attention from me in the corps rehearsals, even before we get to the full call. So I've decided to not do the company class so I could have more time to do that in the afternoon.

Jared Redick (03:42)
That's great for those young dancers. That's where you get a real opportunity to get to know them and they get to know you and understand what it is you're looking for and how can they effectively work with you. However, in terms of the season, how do you approach curating your season? You're going on your third full season, I believe. Is that correct? Correct. And so you must have three to five to seven years of programming already planned out. So how do you go about that?

Susan Jaffe (03:54)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Well, each season has a flavor and there's so many factors that go into creating a season. But one of the things that I learned particularly from UNCSA, my time there, was that the mixture of ballet and contemporary or ballet and contemporary ballet is much more interesting, let's say in a rep program, than just all ballet or just all contemporary dance.

So I do believe that the eyes get tired. You know, if you see three tutu back in a row, you're going to just start to feel like, wow, this is all overwhelming. But if you go from tutu to contemporary or to contemporary ballet back to a tutu, whether it's a long or even as just something that's highly technical, then you remain fresh while you're watching a program. But like, for example, going into our this particular fall season,

It is our 85th anniversary. so in some ways, there are a lot of works that are sort of a retrospective of who ABT has been, what has shaped ABT into the company it is today, and what do we do moving forward. So one of the programs is a full Twilithsar evening. And not only because she created 16 works for ABT, but she was a pioneer as a

famous sought after female choreographer and it's her Steve Diamond anniversary in that role and because we're in our 85th anniversary I thought it was appropriate to do a full Twilitharp evening. We have four different programs on our three-week season so then there is one called ABT of the Past. Imagine walking into the theater in 1943 and you're going to see Lacell feed.

which we haven't seen in a long time, you're gonna see something by Agnes de Mil. So we have a Rodeo is the closing number, and you're gonna see something by Anthony Tudor. These people shape the innovative aspect of ABT, not just, you know, we do all the classical work, all the major dramatic works, et cetera, but the innovative short ballets, they really started that as pioneers at that time. So ABT of the past, that's what you're going to see.

Then you're going to see something that is much more present, which is King of the Shades. Then we have various pas de deux. And then we end with third act Sleeping Beauty. So this is really who ballet theater is, what we hang our hat on as far as what's our brand. know, our brand. We're a classical ballet company. That is our brand. And then the third program is things that have been choreographed on ABT.

great choreographers who have choreographed on ABT. So we start with Balanchine's theme and variations that was choreographed on ABT, I believe in 1947. Alexei Ratnozsky's Serenade after Plato's Symposium, which was choreographed on ABT in one of his best works that he did for ABT. And then we are finishing with a brand new work by a very well sought after

choreographer Juliano Nunes, who has been choreographing all over Europe. He's an artist of color, so I like that because that lends to my idea that seasons have to be well-rounded by many different voices, not only by the voices of the past, but also female choreographers, artists of color, so that we get a beautiful array of offerings. Juliano is an extraordinarily talented.

choreographer and his work is very, very challenging. So I'm looking forward to seeing what he will create for ABT. That's why, for example, this particular season has this flavor to it. And then so every season will have a different flavor as we move forward. But so just to say that I really think about what should shape a season and why is that season important at that moment in time.

Jared Redick (08:22)
Just picking up on the thing about theme and variations, something that I learned in my career was that I didn't realize that theme and variations was choreographed on ABT, not New York City Ballet. And if you look at them, the two different versions, they're slightly different for each company.

Susan Jaffe (08:38)
Yeah.

And we just approach it more sort of traditional classic style. And they approach it with more of the Balanchine style. And they are a little bit faster, although I saw in 1978 version, Gelsie Kirkland and Misha Verzhnikov and ABT, Dancing, Theme and Variations, it was at 76 or 78. And the tempos were at lightning speed. And so we actually

took theme to Korea last March or April and the dancers to sort of get a head start on that because we have a jam-packed season that's hard to rehearse everything. So I wanted them to get that already under their belt. And I said to everybody, we are going to go back to the original tempos of what ABT used to do because if they did it in 1976 or 78, we can do it today. So it was very exciting.

and we have some wonderful dancers that can really tackle this with complete aplomb. So it was a lot of fun seeing this. look forward to seeing it.

Jared Redick (09:46)
That'd be fun to see. I don't know that some of those old videotapes, I'm convinced with some of them when you look in the 30s and the 40s, those videos that are there, I'm convinced that they're just sped up because some of those dancers are moving so fast.

Susan Jaffe (09:58)
Yeah, I mean, I think some of them are. think just because of the way, not because people are trying to speed them up, but because of the way cameras worked back then. Like when you see an old movie of Ulanava in Romeo and Juliet, it's very fast. So it's not really in real time.

Jared Redick (10:16)
So let's just move on to kind of the nuts and bolts of what this podcast really focuses on and really understanding, know, pulling back the curtain on the audition and hiring process. Right now, how many dancers are in ABT?

Susan Jaffe (10:28)
approximately 85. I didn't count them. I think it's 85 or 86.

Jared Redick (10:33)
And then how many weeks of work do the dancers currently have? 36 weeks. And approximately how many performances per season for this coming season?

Susan Jaffe (10:36)
36.

We

usually have approximately 17 weeks per season of performances.

Jared Redick (10:49)
Okay, 17 weeks per season. And then for a new dancer coming into the company, what is their starting weekly salary?

Susan Jaffe (10:56)
Our general manager has that information. Sorry. That's okay.

Jared Redick (10:59)
We can come back to that, I'll put it in the show notes. And then of course you have the studio company. Do know how many dancers are in the studio company for this upcoming year? Always 12. Always 12? Okay, that I didn't know.

Susan Jaffe (11:12)
Or at least we try to get 12. Maybe some years they don't get to 12, but it's a 12 cap, but usually it's 12.

Jared Redick (11:20)
And then in terms of auditioning for the company, I see that you do do some in-person auditions in New York, I believe, but do you also take video submissions from dancers? We-

Susan Jaffe (11:31)
Well, what we normally do is the video audition will come to my staff and then they will sort through what they think would be of interest or of the level of ABT and then they send it to me and then I look at it and I decide whether or not that person should come and take class in person because somebody can look really amazing on a videotape but then when they come and they're standing next to

potential colleagues, then that's a real measure. Do they add up? Do they have the strength? Do they have the coordination? All of those things. And some people do. Last year I hired one dancer who sent a videotape. She came, she took class, and I thought she had great potential. And so I said, okay, I'd like you to work on these few things, but I'm going to hire you short term and then we'll see. And she got a renewed contract. So it worked out.

Jared Redick (12:29)
So it is possible to be hired from your videotape, so to speak, through your process. Yes. And then you do have that one audition, is that correct? In-person audition in New York, is that something you're going to continue with?

Susan Jaffe (12:41)
We have an audition. We don't have that for the company.

Jared Redick (12:44)
Okay, and then in terms of the kind of the structure of the school to company pipeline, I'm sure that JKO, you want the students to come through the company, get training there, move into the studio company, and then move into the company. Is that what you're still supporting that, of course?

Susan Jaffe (13:00)
Yes. Usually when they go through the school or even the last few years of the school and then into the studio company, they're trained in the ABT style or the ABT way, which is really classicism at the highest level and also somebody who can move in a contemporary way. And so in the studio company, they get a lot of contemporary ballet, which trains them to

be able to adapt to all the choreography that comes into the main company when they're hired.

Jared Redick (13:32)
In terms of when you are watching an audition or you're watching these dancers, they're in company class, you see them in person, what qualities catch your eye? What is going to jump out to you when you're in the studio and say, I need to have that dancer in the company or I want to give them the opportunity to work with us?

Susan Jaffe (13:49)
Yes. So, well, first it's baseline. You know, it's technique. Do you have the physicality to be able to do a, you know, a season of 36 weeks of very difficult choreography? Do you have the technique? Do you have the coordination? Do you have the style of the arms, the epaum, so just basics. And then the joy of dance, really. Do you have the joy of dance in you? Do you have a certain amount of confidence in who you are? Do you fit in?

Do you look like you would fit into the company? And so all of those things. And then, you know, when somebody gets into the company and let's say I look at somebody to, need some solo people to go and do solos. It's always the people, because everybody at ABT is a fantastic dancer. Everybody. There's nobody who's not a fantastic dancer. And when you think about that there are only 2 % of the population who take ballet.

get into professional companies, just think about the percentage of that, of actually making it into a professional company. So when somebody does make it into a professional company at the level of ABT or the Royal Ballet or the New York City Ballet or any of those major top companies, you are at a very small percentile of dancers and you are excellence. You have excelled above everyone else.

So that's the baseline, but when I'm looking for a soloist, they have to have something extra. More musicality, more point of view, more presence. It's not just technical that I look for at all. Somebody can be an amazing technician, but don't have all the other ingredients and they will not progress. They may be a very, very good, amazing chord dancer.

but they will not progress. And I'll have dancers come to me and say, I'm really ready for the next step. I'm really ready to be pushed. And if I think they are, then I'll say, yeah, actually, let's try you in this and try you in that. Or I may say, okay, here are the things that you need to work on before I will think that you're ready to be pushed. Like I need more presence from you. I need more point of view. I need more musicality.

whatever it is, more attention to detail, whatever it is I think that they need or more confidence or whatever it is. I will say, you know, here are the five things that you need to do if you want to progress. And, you know, you can do that in class, you can do that by taking some outside gigs, you can get yourself a private teacher on Mondays, you know, you can do those things to help you progress or you can even do just more cross training.

For example, not just about strength, but when I started doing a gyrotonics, I learned so much more about who I was as an artist than, you know, maybe just doing another ballet class. So as an artist, you have to keep informing yourself, you know, whether it's, it could be going to museums, it could be anything, as long as you are a lifelong learner, as long as you are insatiable.

And as long as you are self-responsible, meaning that you don't blame the outside world for your circumstances, that you actually take self-responsibility for your... Now, it's one thing if you get hit by a car, okay. Or there's a war, okay. Yes, you can blame the outside. But, you know, people's paths are their paths for a reason, and nobody's done it to them. Right. So if they are...

self-aware, self-responsible, self-respecting, and continue to learn and grow, they will be joyful citizens in a ballet company and also in

Jared Redick (17:46)
the

world. You know, I think it's good to think about how this art form is such a never-ending process and you always have to be self-reflective of what you're doing and it's so easy to get into the mindset of comparing yourself to other dancers in the company versus turning it internally into what you need to do in any given moment.

Susan Jaffe (18:05)
Yeah, I mean, you can't only focus in one place at a time. So if you're constantly looking sideways and looking at other people, guess who you're not focusing on. Right? So it takes you outside of yourself instead of being self-focused.

Jared Redick (18:21)
That's

great information and I hope the dancers listening take notice of that. speaking of younger dancers or dancers in general, what do wish that they knew about company life? Really thinking about dancers who are going from school or their latter part of their training or their first year in company, second year in company. What do you wish they knew about company life?

Susan Jaffe (18:41)
that when you get into a core, you have to really become your own cheerleader, your own teacher. You have to constantly think about where you're going and being positive. And, you know, because you can get into a company and let's just say there's always going to be people who complain, always. You get a group of people together, they are always gonna find fault with

the schedule will fall with this fault, with that, I'm not a star because it's Susan's fault, you know, and they can bring everybody else down and you can get caught up in that. And what happens is it may initially make you feel like you belong, but you don't realize the cost to your own energy. You don't realize what the negativity will do to you and bring your energy down and bring your

self-esteem down and all of those things. You see this in the country. People want to belong to something and then it may be a very negative thing, but they belong. They feel embraced and supported. I would suggest to make sure that you are your own leader and that you protect your energy and you protect your positivity because if you do that, and I see dancers who do do that, guess who gets ahead?

guess who excels? It's always the positive people, always. And it's not because directors like positive people. Yes, of course. It's because they are self-enforcing, self-perpetuating, self-learning, self, you know, they are taking care of themselves through their journey through a company. So I would definitely say watch out for that.

Don't get dragged into the negativity. It will keep you down. It will keep you unhappy. And it will block your growth. So I would warn against that.

Jared Redick (20:44)
that is great advice and a great reflection on young dancers path and kind of leads us into our next question, which is really around mental health. And we know it is so important for the well-being of dancers, especially in this profession that demands so much physically. Can you share with us maybe a habit or mindset that served you throughout your career? You had such a fantastic and long career. It takes such enormous mental fortitude to

have that kind of longevity.

Yeah, it sounds like what you're talking about is just anything that will help a dancer have perspective about their lives and also put their careers in perspective. Like what is important to them within their life around their careers and being a professional ballet dancer is so all-encompassing, right? It's a 24-7 job. How do you preserve your mental health?

Absolutely, I was just going to say that it just sounds like you are in a constant growth mindset about your life and how you navigate the profession. And I think that we all need to do that in our lives or whatever profession that we are following.

I'm in the process of that.

we know that our happiness is our own responsibility and that's what it sounds like you're talking about here is how do you find their own happiness or peace or however you want to qualify that. So in terms of when you were younger and you had this long career and you did so many things within the profession, did you envision yourself becoming an artistic director when you were a dancer?

Yeah, I can imagine. mean, it is you do so many things as the dean of the school here from curricular planning to programming to fundraising to marketing. It's all there underneath that umbrella. What's a dream project or collaboration you'd love to bring to life for ABT without revealing things you can't reveal at this moment?

Well, that's okay. We can certainly postulate on what that might be in the future. So there's so many different possibilities of what it could be. I like to end every interview with our final full circle question, which is what's one piece of advice you'd give your younger self at the start of your professional career?

I have a student who says that all the time. yeah? Don't fret.

all gonna work out. We're think about those words for sure. Well, Susan, I want to thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you finding time in your very busy schedule. We'll link to the company's website where everyone can learn more about what ABT is doing and follow their upcoming season, which opens in the fall with those four programs, which sound amazing. It's been such a pleasure having you. Thanks so much for joining me today. If you liked our conversation here today,

You can follow Company Secrets Podcast on all platforms and on our website, companysecretspodcast.com. Thank you for listening, because the stage is only part of the story.