Demystifying the Criminal Courtroom | Judge Mario White

This week, we step back from interviewing defense attorneys to hear from a different kind of decision-maker. The one who sets the tone of the courtroom, Judge Mario White. Judge White joins us to talk about what it actually takes to make a courtroom feel less like an institution and more like a place where justice is possible. We get into why diversity on the bench goes far beyond filling seats, how plain language can change the experience of someone in crisis, and what it means to truly listen to everyone involved.

For most people, a courtroom is foreign—a place newcomers are suddenly expected to navigate during the hardest moments of their lives. And yet, our legal system only functions if the public trusts it. Trust requires understanding, and understanding requires someone willing to listen and explain.

Judge Mario White has spent his career being that someone.

Before he took the bench in Madison, Wisconsin, he stood beside defendants as a public defender, and before that, he taught math to high schoolers. Each role, it turns out, was training for the same thing: learning how to meet people where they are, and bring them somewhere clearer.

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Transcript

Meet Judge Mario White

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You know, I I say this more often than not um in sentencings when I'm speaking with uh defendant. You are not just what brought you here today. You are not just the charges that you pled guilty to. There's more to you. You've got family members that are sitting behind you. You know, even though you've had all these things, you've had all these past, you know, experiences, there are still people that show up for you. That says something.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Welcome back to another episode of Sanctuary in the Jungle. I'm your host, Aaron Nelson. Each week on this podcast, we sit down with criminal defense attorneys to hear how they build sanctuary for their clients and what keeps them showing up to do this work. This week we're doing something a little different. We're sitting down with a different kind of decision maker in the courtroom, Judge Mario White. For most people, the courtroom is a whole new world. The robes, the procedure, and the language can feel distant, confusing, and even sterile. Our legal system only works when the public puts trust in it. And trust requires understanding. That's exactly what Judge White has spent his career working toward. From math teacher to public defender to circuit court judge in Madison, Wisconsin. Judge White shows us better ways to explain procedure and the purpose of our system. We talk about why diversity on the bench isn't just symbolic, but essential, and how the simple act of listening and responding with clarity can make a change for people in one of the hardest moments of their life. Let's get into it. Well, welcome to the Sanctuary in the jungle. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Thanks for coming. Uh, we're taking this show on the road. This is the first time we've uh left the library in Hudson, and here we are in Madison with Judge Mario White. So thank you again for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Um so you're a judge here in Madison, is that right? Yes. Circuit court judge?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Circuit court judge.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

You've been doing that for about five, six years.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yes, I got appointed by Governor Evers in June of 2020, and then I had to sit for or run for election again in the next year. So um I'm in my first full term.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

All right. And so you're up for election here in a year or two. Yes. And brave enough to come on to a public podcast. Yes. Well, thank you again for for trusting us with your story. So uh let's maybe get into that. Obviously, now you're a judge. It took you a while to get there. Uh, where'd you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So from Oklahoma. Um, my family lived in southeast Oklahoma, a town called McAllister. It's about two, two and a half, maybe three hours north of Dallas. We moved there when I was in, I want to say probably fifth grade. Um, just me, my mom, and my sister. And I was there um in McAllister going to school till about tenth grade. Okay. Um in the 11th grade, I moved to a science and math school. And so the last two years of my high school were in Oklahoma City, uh, living on the dorms at the University of Oklahoma, going to school the whole time. Wow. Um, so that was a unique experience.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah, let's before you get there, tell me a little bit about the town that you grew up in. It's just so it's just you and your mom and your sister.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yep. So yeah, McAllister, you know, it's uh probably about 40,000 people. Um it's the home of the state penitentiary.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So there were signs on the highway that said strikers might be escaped inmates.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Um, but yeah, so small town, kind of a blue-collar kind of town. The place to go to hang out was Walmart. Wow. Uh that's where you would see people. I mean, it really is kind of a small town.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

What did your mom do for a living?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

So she was a drug and alcohol rehab counselor. Oh. Um, she also did some work in mental health as a counselor. So she kind of um did a lot of work with people that were going through issues.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Some tough times. Some tough times, yeah. Um was that uh with a government agency? Was she uh uh private in some way?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So she worked for the state uh for some time at a mental uh facility, and then she went and worked at a sort of a private um company that did drug and alcohol rehab counseling.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Tell us a little bit about your mom. That must have been somebody that you were I I you were close to, she's passed, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I'm sorry about that. Um Tell us about her.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

She was very um very outspoken and very protective. Um she was someone who um was not afraid to let her position on something be known.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

I remember um once in elementary school, I was in a music class, and this was probably like fourth grade, and the kids were just sitting around talking, and I was turned around talking to someone behind me, and the teacher, for whatever reason, grabbing by my face, turned my hand around and like starts yelling at me as if I'm the only one talking. So my mom was not happy when I told her that story. Oh, so we went to school and had a meeting with the principal and the teacher, and I don't remember much of the conversation, but I remember at one point the teacher saying to the principal, Well, I don't have to stand for this. And my mom said, Well, you can leave. And I thought, okay, I know where this is gonna go. Yeah, you know, there's certain things you're allowed to do with me as a teacher, and things you're not gonna be able to do, and my mom is gonna make sure that uh those lines don't get crossed. So um she was also very giving. I remember going to her college classes uh because she was she got her master's degree. So I remember I have memories of being in one of her classes when she was a student. Um very vague memories because I was very young, but um she managed to get her master's with two kids. Wow. Single family, you know, and then um the and also being a woman of color in Oklahoma in the eighties, um, certainly lots of lots of obstacles.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, was there a were there a lot of people that looked like you and your mom?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

No, not in McAllister.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Um, quite frankly, not in any of the talents that we lived in.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Um, you know, I would most often be the only person of color in my classes.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

How much were you aware of that? How much was that something that was a a a part of your of your life?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

So it I wasn't really aware of it until I went to the science and math school and was actually around other kids who were non-white.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Um, you know, the school had students who were of color, Indian, um, native, um, Asian. So it was much more multicultural than what I was used to. And so when I had that exposure, I thought, oh, this is much different. You know, I'm not the only one that looks like me.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

And how was that when it was much different? Is this, I would assume, was a positive experience?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, definitely a positive experience, the ability to kind of meet other people and be exposed to different cultures and just different ways of thinking and um seeing people who have different backgrounds was just sort of an eye-opening experience for someone who's, you know, 11th grade.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. So tell us about that transition, because you know, as a I'm just trying to think of myself as a 16-year-old living in my community, and and obviously my community is maybe different than your community, and I might uh be perceived differently in my community, but to go away and to like not sleep in your own bed, not to be with your mother who's been protecting you, that's to me. I'm just like, that's incredibly brave.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

It was an interesting experience, you know, to go away and live in a dorm.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

You know, I had a roommate, it was a college life, so we had the shared bathroom in the you know main area. It wasn't like we had a suite with our own bathroom or anything. And you know, this was a college campus. We're on the campus of University of Oklahoma. So wow. We were around college students.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um, our school itself uh is in Oklahoma City, and so we would take buses. We had our own dedicated buses that would take us from our dorm to the school and then back every day.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Did you find that scary at the time, or was it just so you're 16, maybe you don't know enough to be scared, and there's all this new stuff, and it's just like, wow, this is cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

It was a little bit both. Okay. You know, because I'm away from home, I'm away from people that I know and all my friends that I had. You know, I don't see those people anymore. So I'm making new friends and new experiences, and we're in this this new environment that is academically very rigorous. Um, it was kind of a humbling experience to go from, oh, I'm I'm the top of my class, you know, in McAllister, and now I'm at this science and math school where everybody is the top from where they came from, and now you're all together. So the school built in study hours. You know, we had um I think at 7 p.m. was when it was time to study, and so you'd be at the dorm, and that was study time for much. It's just what you did. Seven to nine or something like that, you know, and there would be a teacher from each subject that would be at the dorm that you could ask questions of. And um yeah, it was I I can't underscore what a unique experience it is to sort of be away from home, to be in this setting. And the typical things that you would do in college or high school, you know, going out with your friends on a Friday night or driving around town, couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Weren't allowed to drive. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Unless you were really secluded. So math and science, and then now you're in lawyer. We don't get lot many lawyers that are like focused on math and science.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Uh yeah. I remember some of my law school classes, professors saying, Well, you know, if you were good at math, you wouldn't be here. Yeah. Well, that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

You're good at math. So you finish from a I'm I'm guessing this is a really good high school, right? Yep. Um where do you go from there?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I went to Oklahoma State University. And honestly, I remember when I applied to college. Um I'm kind of a procrastinator.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

And I did the application the night before it was due. I thought, you know, I should probably fill out this application if I'm going to go to college. Yeah, yeah. So I did it, got accepted, um, ended up doing math and history, um, and then a Russian minor. Yeah. Yeah, that's an what was the minor?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Russian. Wow. So you've got history, math, and then a minor in Russian. Yeah. So after school, or you get a degree then in history and in math. Yep. And um you go out into the real world. Go out in the real real world. What do you what do you do from there?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

So I was dating uh my first boyfriend at the time, and he was a year older, or still has a year older than I am, um, in college. And so we moved to Dallas, Texas. Um there were a couple other friends of mine who also moved, and we all kind of lived in the same apartment complex. There was a kind of a significant Oklahoma State contingent down in Dallas, and so I started looking for a job because I didn't have one, and I got hired at uh Borders Bookstore. Oh. And that was my first job after college. Um just working at a bookstore. Yeah. So it was fun. I really liked it.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

You eventually became a teacher, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I did become a teacher, so while I was there, I found a teacher certification program. It was it was an you know long days for sure. Um and then I finally got to the point where I could take the certification test, passed it, and then interviewed with Dallas Independent School District and got hired. High school? High school. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

And high school math? High school history. High school math. High school math.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

What did you find rewarding or or if anything about working with students? Tell me about that. How was it working with students? Just when they would get it.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah. You know, oh, that's what my teacher meant when they said this. Okay. That was really rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah. Yeah. And how do you think you as a teacher is it just simple ex explanation?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

You know? No, as a teacher, it's much different. Okay. You know, as a tutor, the student has a base. They've been to class, they've had exposure. As a teacher, you're the one who's laying that base. And I will say that my first year as a teacher was probably not so great. Okay. Because I didn't go to college to be a teacher.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I didn't go through the education program. And so a lot of the sort of pedagogical techniques, I didn't I wasn't taught that because I was a math major. I was a history major. I wasn't a math ed major. So my first year of teaching, um, I started at a school that the teacher I took over for had retired, but she hadn't separated. She was using her vacation time, and so they couldn't hire a new teacher until she separated.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So they had substitutes that were coming in and out of the class, and so I started like October of the school year. And so by then it had already been several months with basically no structure. So here I am, this you know, twenty-two-year-old coming into this high school setting where the students have not had any consistency, any structure, and it's here you go.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

How is that coming in uh uh to that high school? I mean, was there, you know, were they accepting of you as a person in a position of authority? Some, some not so.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Okay, these are these are kids who um, you know, we're talking ninth, tenth graders. Yeah. Um, and all across the socioeconomic strata. So students um and also of different backgrounds, you know, Hispanic students, uh, students of color, black students, white students. Um so it was a challenge. Partly because you know, the students themselves, what happened was a lot of the teachers would say, Well, you know what, this is the problem child in my class, and so I want them out of my class so that I can teach the rest of my students. Well, all of those students get put into one class, which was the one that I walked into. So there was a lot of issues with that, and uh, you know, I think I would be much better now than I was when I was twenty two. Sure, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

I mean, we're just yeah. I'd like to think we're better versions of ourselves as we get older and we do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

And so I actually um I remember distinctly, I was after school, I was in my classroom by myself, it had just been a really, really awful day, and I was getting kind of emotional. And I said, Mario, you are not going to cry. You're not going to do that. Like, you're not gonna let this situation do that to you. So I was like, suck it up, you know, and you'll come back tomorrow. Um I did ultimately move to a different school.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Um, I landed at a school that was a magnet school. So it was similar to the one that I went to in high school, but it was not a residential school. It was still in um Dallas. Um, and so that was just a night and day experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Tell me about like what about it that you felt like you were gonna cry? Like, right? What what if you can put yourself back into that situation and just share with us like what about that experience was like hit you so emotionally that that that that was your response?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

It was it was the chaos of the situation, it was the fact that I felt like I didn't have you know the control. Um I didn't have the buy-in of the students. Okay. You know, and that's really an important thing. If the students don't buy into you as a teacher, then it doesn't it's not gonna work. Um and I didn't know how to get that buy-in because it wasn't something that I just had that experience um beforehand.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

How much was it due to your age or just yeah, or other parts of your of who you are that maybe people were judging? Do you are you able to say? Are you a good idea?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, I think age certainly had something to do with it. You know, I wasn't too much older than some of my students. Um I sort of didn't look like I was too much older than some of my students. I'm not a you know, certainly back then, certain not, you know, I'll say it. Yeah, you know, and so there's some aspect to that. I'm also not very aggressive and loud. Um that's just not my personality. So I think that all of those things kind of come together to just make someone less likely at that age to accept me as the teacher.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And I know just moving forward a little bit, um I know in your Facebook feed you'd recently posted something that, you know, you're you're the first openly black uh uh judge, which I just love your your humor uh about someone talking about openly black, right? But you're also, as we know, openly gay. Yeah. Um how were you openly gay then at that time in 2000s with as a teacher? Is that something that the students knew or you were judged on?

SPEAKER_00 18:57

No, I wasn't out. So the first school I was not. Um the second school I went to that was smaller, um, and the student body itself is much closer with each other and the teachers, um, there were a few students that knew I was gay.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Um, but I wasn't out.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

You know, uh, but there were there were a couple students that knew.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

And did that was that influence your authority? Did that influence any of the um how they perceived you, did you think, or was it accepted?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

It was much more accepted. Okay. Um there were students that were also, you know, gay or sure uh bi or whatever. Yep. Um and so it was a much more accepting community amongst students. So um to the extent that those who knew I was gay, uh I don't think it really impacted how they viewed me one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

How was it, if I if I may, how was that just growing up, right? Um knowing that you were gay, and maybe knowing that the community didn't accept it in some ways, America didn't accept it in some ways, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But uh tell me about that if they if you're willing to.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

It was, you know, it was weird. I mean, I as a kid, I don't think I knew what being gay was.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Um when I was in high school, you know, I remember having crushes on girls, um, but I didn't have a girlfriend. Okay. And people would always ask, oh, why don't you have a girlfriend? I'm like, well, I'm too busy. You know, so I knew that there was something there, but I didn't quite know really what it was. And then um when I graduated high school, that was kind of when I knew what the word was. Okay. You know. Just because it had been talked about a little bit more, and you Well, I just sort of had thought about it and it's like, okay, now I know what this is. Um there's a word for it, and I now can say it. You know, I can come out to myself.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Language is important in all of that. I mean, I know I I uh as as a cisgender white man, I don't know that I have the the status or standing to talk about it from my perspective, though. I'm like, I think language to to give us access as human beings to just talk about it. I don't want labels, but we still need language, right? Right. Right, right. And that was helpful for you?

SPEAKER_00 21:38

That was helpful. Once I sort of knew, okay, this is what it is, I'm sort of getting over the you know religious aspect of you know, you're not supposed to, you know, be gay, things like that, getting over all of that baggage. Once I was able to sort of say, okay, this is who I am. Then I felt a lot better. Okay. So then the next step was, okay, well now I gotta start like, how do I tell people? You know, and so my freshman year of college, um, and I'd never met anyone who was gay, at least who's really out. Okay. Um, not until my freshman year of college. And uh the first gay person I met who ended up becoming my roommate in college and is a very good friend of mine, um, was gay. And so we sort of like, I I don't know if I say sort of took me under his wing as like, you know, I know what you're going through, and there's how it works that works. And you know, we went to like um um one of the uh gay student organization meetings, which I was absolutely petrified to go to. Sure. I'm in this room full of strangers, and it's about being, you know, everyone is gay and they're talking, and I'm like, this is very scary for me because I'm sort of coming out this process. But um that really helped, like knowing someone um who had sort of some of the same experiences, yeah, shared experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Right? That's just how how important that is for us and as humans to just know that I'm not alone. Right. Yeah, yeah. So you're you're teaching in Dallas, you're kind of trying to find your legs for lack of a better, you're trying to figure that out. Um now looking back at that, do you see any connection now uh in your role as a public defender or your role as a judge? Some of the things that you learned as a teacher?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, I mean, patience, listening, um meeting people where they are, um, those are things that, you know, I think are true of any profession. Life skills, right? Yeah. But especially in and the profession that we have, you know, where there are um consequences for decisions. And so making sure that someone understands, you know, making sure that they get that, oh, I get it moment. Um, those are all things that I kind of think back on, you know, the skills developed as a as a teacher.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

And it seems obvious as a teacher that you want your student to get it, so to speak, right? It's it's your responsibility as a teacher to transfer this knowledge. I find sometimes in our job now that some people that are in a position of authority see it backwards. Like the people that come into the courtroom, it's their job to get it, and why don't they get it, as opposed to the lawyers and the judges, hey, you don't get it, but this is not your world. I'm gonna transfer this knowledge to you. Does that I would imagine that puts you in an advantageous position to be like, I'm gonna teach this?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, and I think it's an important sort of way of thinking, because, you know, and I sort of say this whenever I talk with a jury, for example, um, after a trial, and I say, especially if it's a a serious one, I I say, you know, you all don't live in this world.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

You don't see this kind of stuff on a day-to-day basis. And so I get that this is much more difficult for you because it's not the world in which you live or operate. For us, yes, it's it's not like it's just, oh, this is another one of these kind of cases, but we are familiar with some of the emotional uh impact of these things and are better able to sort of navigate that because we've been through it before. Um so people that don't have that, people that come into court, you know, for a small claims day, they don't know what they don't know. Yeah. Right. And, you know, there is an expectation that if you are representing yourself, you are supposed to know the law. I'm supposed to treat you just like I would anyone, whether you have a lawyer or not. Yep. You know, I'm not supposed to treat you differently, but I do think it's important that you spend some time just to explain.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

You know, educate. Educate.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Like literally educate. Right, right. Hello. Just wanted to jump in and thank everyone for listening to the episode. Those of us advocating for the underdog know how hard it can be to carry the hope. We also know that often it takes just one smile, one hug, or one small win to keep us going. My hope is that these conversations not only encourage you to keep going, but to share that energy with others, keeping the whole community moving forward. So carry the hope, share that hope with a friend, and subscribe now to join us.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

And so, you know, my my ex was in law school. I'm like, well, you know, I can do that too. So I applied to places and came to Wisconsin and uh sort of was on campus, and um I got tricked to being here because I came to visit. It was April, and it was one of the very first really, really nice spring days.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Oh, beautiful spring day on the terrace.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

You know, the boats, the blue sky, just sitting there looking, and people are just so happy. Now I know why they're so happy. It's because they've endured a horrible winter. And, you know, just the whole mood was just so light and um exciting. And I thought this is where I should be. Yeah, absolutely. And then fast forward to that first winter when I'm trudging through, you know, ankle-deep snow because I don't have snow boots because it doesn't snow like that in Oklahoma and Texas. I'm thinking, what am I doing here? Yeah, this is insane.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Like tomorrow we're supposed to get 14 inches of snow, right? Yeah. That would they didn't put that on the brochure.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

That was not part of the uh packet I was sent. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah. So right out of law school, is that what you would then apply to to do public defender?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Okay. So I got um placed in Madison, uh in the juvenile unit because of my sort of high school uh teaching background.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Did that did that program then have an influence on you signing up to be a public defender?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's what really got me to want to be in the public defender's office, and I was fortunate that there was an opening in Madison because I didn't want to move.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

You wanted more April spring days on the terrace.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah. Um, and so I I was able to get hired in Madison in the adult unit after I graduated from law school, and I was there for almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

So podcast is called Sanctuary in the Jungle, right? And it's a uh for me at least, it's about creating a place or a space where we can make better decisions but recognize people's dignity and humanity. How as a public defender were were you again, maybe you didn't have that same phrase, but I imagine those were things as a public defender that you were taught that the culture was to do that. Is that something you found you were able to do as a public defender?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

I mean, I would say yes, it's certainly a difficult thing to do. You know, it is it's difficult from the public defender perspective. Um, you know, you have a role with

Building Sanctuary as a POC Public Defender

SPEAKER_00 30:00

the person sitting next to you to tell their story in a way that um humanizes them and makes them more than just the words on a criminal complaint. Um it's difficult because you also have a kind of a tightrope, you know, you you um have to do that, but you also have to do it in a way that's gonna be received. The audience needs to hear it. Right. And so depending on, you know, you've we've all had these serious emotionally wrought cases um where people, victims, their families are affected profoundly. People have been harmed. And so you have to find a way to sort of stand up for the dignity of the client, but also not diminish the dignity of those who were also affected. Sure. And do that in a way that's going to be receptive or be heard, uh received by the person who's listening.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

What were some things that you found to be helpful to move along that path, to to to get to that sanctuary? Maybe you weren't always successful, but to just get closer to that. Were there any things that you consciously were aware of that you tried to be like, hey, here's what I need to do?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Aaron Ross Powell Just being aware of the um uncomfortableness. Being comfortable being uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Being comfortable saying things to the judge like you said in that day, like here's what you did here, here's what you didn't do here. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

And not coming at it as uh, you know, you are a racist because you did it this way on this case, sure. You didn't do it this way for my client. That's not going to be received.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

You know, being dispassionate and rational is like, well, here's what happened in this case, here's what happened in this case. Whether or not this was intentional, my client has a view of it, and that is what's shaping his reality. Um, you know, being able to create some emotional distance between the act and the result that you want to try to get.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Sure. Right? Just in time is obviously helpful in a lot of ways, but how that person spends the time, if they have to spend that time in custody, right? Are clients wanting to make things go faster? Yeah. Right? And that doesn't help them necessarily because we want some time to dissipate some of the pain. Right. Some of the other. You know, you'd been in a situation where you were the only person of color growing up in, you know, uh in McAllister. You know, you've grown into other areas where there were more people that look like you that have your shared experiences. Now you're a public defender in the criminal justice system in Madison. And the reality is, is a lot of the defendants uh look like you. Right. Um, how how did your own personal experience, how did your being a person of color impact that for them and or for you?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

So I think, you know, and I I I I can't say this is going to be true for every single client that I represented, but I would like to think that, you know, people would see somebody who looked like them and at least have a little bit more trust in the person. Um I will say that I certainly had experiences that were the opposite, where I would have a client of color who um would not necessarily buy into me as their attorney because I didn't fit the archetype. Sure. I wasn't the old white guy with gray hair. Yeah. You know, and that's what the lawyer, that's what the lawyer is supposed to look like. Um so there was sort of that um reversal.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah. I mean, and even if it's not, you know, trying to put ourselves in that person's shoes, it might not have been a they they bought into the archetype, but they also maybe uh the the power. I'm worried that because you look like me, you're gonna have less power. Right. You're gonna have less persuasion because this is a system in which white gray-haired men are in control, right, and you're not one of them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, being in the courtroom with, you know, when I was a public defender with my client of color, and of course we are the only people that look like us in the entire courtroom, including the jury panel, um, you know, for me, I would just dive into it. You know, I can just say, look, look around the room. My client's worried that he might not get a fair shake because the only person who looks like him is me. Should he be worried about that? Let's talk about that. Yeah. You know, and I could I can lean into those kinds of things that, you know, you'd have to do it a different way. Sure. Um but, you know, it I think the fact that I, you know, had practiced here um and had, I believe, a pretty good reputation um amongst the judges and the the prosecutors that um there was a certain level of authenticity um and that I wasn't trying to be something that I'm not. And so when I would make an argument, um I think it would be more well received because people know who I am and they know that you know I'm not doing something to be dramatic or theatrical or just you know bombastic.

How to communicate procedural fairness

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Um were you had you thought about being a judge for a long time? Is that something that just you evolved over time? Or tell us about the journey to to becoming a judge?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah, I never wanted to be a judge when I started as an attorney. It just never wasn't something I thought about. Um I liked what I was doing, I liked doing trial work, I liked, you know, my colleagues and the in the public defender's office. And what started to change was, you know, as I sort of got more years under my belt and had more confidence in myself, I thought, you know, I'm getting tired of trying to convince someone to do what I think is right. I want to be the person making that decision. Yeah. Um and that was sort of the thought process that started moving me into the direction of considering um being a judge.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Because at least for me, I've only been a criminal defense attorney all my career, 30 years, that's that's all I want to do. Um but yeah, as we talk about sanctuary, as I talk about it, I feel like maybe it's woe is me, but I feel like I'm the person in the in the with the least power to make it a sanctuary on a day-to-day basis. There might be different settings. Um do you agree with that? Is that something that sounds like you you would as a premise you would agree with?

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah, I mean, you know, the the reality is there is a power differential.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

You know, whether that's good or bad or whatever is is the case. I mean, the judge does carry a lot of authority with how things are run in the courtroom and uh what things are allowed or not allowed, and you know, the tone of things. Um, you know, and that can make an experience pleasant. It can make an experience unpleasant.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

And you might get the same result in both cases, but that experience can be really sometimes more important than the actual outcome.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Absolutely. It's not uh I mean, we we think about results, but the feeling that a person goes away from there is super important, right? Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And like why is the feeling of of your client in those instances when you were a public defender, or the feeling of the litigants, why is that important?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

People want to be heard. People want to be listened to. Um, and if people think that they were heard and they're listened to, then there's more buy-in on the result. You know, yeah, I didn't get what I wanted, but you know what, the judge listened to what I had to say. Versus he didn't he wasn't even paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Sure. You know. Did you feel that the same when you were an attorney? I mean, was there sometimes when your role was to make sure that your client felt heard from you as the attorney?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Yeah, I mean, you know, you you'd like to think that as an attorney you are able to sort of convey your client's story. Sometimes you're better at it than some other times.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

You know, and is the client satisfied with what happened or not satisfied, and is that because they felt like you didn't do as good a job or um the judge didn't listen? I mean, there's multi-dimensions there as far as what the client's going to come away with. You know, I've had cases where, you know, I have a good relationship with a client, um, get a horrible outcome, but the person's okay about it because they're like, well, you fought for me.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

You know.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Um And why do you think that is important? I mean, just to for them to have that feeling that they were heard, that someone fought for them.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

People, you know, I I think it's just one of those no one wants to think that they just get thrown into this abyss with nothing to help them. And if if they feel like, you know what, someone had my back, someone was there, someone was fighting for me, someone was there to sort of tell my story, then there's some level of vindication. Um and the result can sometimes just be secondary to that, you know. And um I remember I had a trial with uh a guy who um it was a drunk driving trial. Um and it was a difficult trial, difficult sir set of circumstances, and he was convicted, and I went to go see him um right after the verdict in the jail, and you know, I I felt horrible, you know, because like ah I lost this trial. I thought I was gonna win this trial and I lost. And you know, he didn't have that same mindset. You know, um obviously he wasn't happy, but um, it wasn't as though he was mad at me, you know, he felt like we put up a fight.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

And the chips fell where they fell.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

And that that I think you talked about it before when you're talking about the bond with your client, you know, it may or may not be racist, but there's a perception of him being treated different based upon how he looks. Um this perception of fairness, I think that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Um there's a measurement maybe of fairness, but there's the perception of fairness, fairness. Are you do you feel like you're in a better position now as a judge to improve those perceptions? I think so. How so?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Because I can I can take the time, make the time, um, to allow someone to tell me what they want to tell me. You know, it when you have a case, obviously if you've got a busy calendar, it's very difficult to kind of, you know, you gotta move things along. But there are moments where somebody just wants to vent. Yeah. That's all they want. And I've had instances where I've had defendants who they start and I think, okay, do I wanna like cut this off or just kind of let it play out? And more often than not, I'm like, okay, just let it let it go. You know? Yep. And they talk, they talk, they talk, they talk. Um finally they're finished, and then I say whatever my piece is. And uh this is an actual example, this happened, and as the person was getting sent, you know, they were um going back into custody, um the bailiff came up to me later and said, you know, he was really appreciative of you because he felt like you listened to him.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Even though he didn't get what he wanted, he felt like, you know, he at least got to say his piece. Sure. And sometimes that goes a long way to someone feeling that the system is not just out to get them.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Oh, absolutely. I mean, as a as a lawyer, right? I mean, I have different feelings than my client, right? I I get to go home every night, I get to do things. But one of my frustrations, I'll just say, is you make an argument and you hear a decision and it doesn't there's there doesn't even acknowledge some of the arguments you made. Not even a I heard you, Mr. Nelson, I disagree with you. That's fine. You know, just as simple as that sometimes, at least for me, goes a long way. Yeah, I heard your point, here's why I disagree with you. And now here we've moved on, as opposed to just here's the result. And I'm like, okay, like how'd we get there?

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Yeah, and I, you know, I can't say that I do that every time. Sure. But there are certainly instances where I will say, you know what, I understand why you made this argument. You know, it's not a frivolous argument. Yeah. I get why you why you're recommending this bail. You know, I don't agree with it. I'm not going to follow it, or, you know, whatever, but you know, just to acknowledge, like I haven't made up my mind before you've made your argument. I've listened to what you have to say. I appreciate that you made this argument. I'm not going to follow the whatever. But, you know, just to acknowledge the fact that because sometimes, you know, as the lawyer, you might think, well, gee, was that just a completely stupid argument? Like, should I have never made those I want to get better too.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Right. And I want to know what's what's important to say, what's important not to say, all of those different things. Obviously, I have my own opinions. Right. But unless you give me feedback, I'm just going to keep talking the way that I'm talking. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

I mean, results can, but I don't know if uh, like you said, maybe it's a good argument. What you

Importance of having a diverse bench

SPEAKER_01 45:20

know, I saw in some of the research for this and some of the preparation, I s uh we read your application uh for an appointment, because you got appointed your first you didn't win an election to begin with, you got an appointment. Correct. And what does one have to do to get appointed to be a judge here in Wisconsin?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

So um there's an application process, which is very lengthy, and then uh there's an interview process with the committee. Um, at least under Governor Evers, he has a committee of attorneys across the state. And so after that process, I interviewed with the governor and then um was was offered the the job.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

One of our previous guests was uh Craig Most-Tuneau, who's on that committee. Yep. And he was sharing with us, and he took great pride in the efforts that the committee and the governor have made to uh make that pool of people as well as the people that are ultimately selected much more diverse in a reflection of the of the communities that they serve. Do you think that's important?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

I think it is important. I think it's important for our justice system to look like the people that go through it. Um because you need people with different experiences, different lenses through which they see things. You know, if you've never had to deal with um hunger, if you've never had to deal with your lights being cut off, yeah. You've never had to deal with um, you know, I don't have a babysitter, I can't do this because I don't have someone to watch my kid. You know, I have to bring my kid with me to my college classes. Yeah. You know, I have to bring my kid with me to court because I don't have anything else. If you don't have that experience, then when you see something like that happen, you think, well, what are you doing this for? You know, so that lens through which people see is important because it can inform how an ultimate decision is made. Um and so to have that variety and those different viewpoints, you know, I can talk with a colleague about something and give my perspective because of my own experience that they don't have, and that can inform them. The same that you know their experience, you know, can inform a decision that I make because I don't have that same experience that they had. Um that's that's important.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

And I hear uh when I hear you say that, I hear we're gonna get to better results, right? Because we're gonna have more perspectives, we're gonna get to better results. I think so. But there's also another part of that is just the process is better. Can you tell me a little bit a bit more about like why just improving the process, even if it doesn't change the result? Why is why do you think that's important?

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Sometimes the process is more than the result. Um, you want to feel like the person the person wants to feel like they were heard. The person wants to feel like the process is fair. The person doesn't want to feel as though this is just some, you know, assembly line uh cookie cutter, one size fits all, everybody gets, you know, this, there has to be some level of nuance and individualized uh approach to things. And so if you have a process that is filled with people that just have one particular viewpoint, then the person who comes through that process who doesn't share that viewpoint is not going to feel like they were really anything more than just a cog.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Um I think in our world we call that procedural fairness. Yeah. Um and the studies that I don't know if you're aware of them, but some of the studies that I've seen that that actually the more procedural fairness is received, more the it reduces recidivism. Are you familiar with any of that?

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, and I think some of it has to do with just, you know, the buy-in and the legitimacy of the system. If you feel like the system is legitimate because you felt as though you were treated fairly, then you're going to be more accepting of what the result is.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Um and then more willing to deal with the consequences and perhaps modify your behavior.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Right, right. And if you don't, if you just felt like, well, no one listened to what I had to say, no one cared about what I had to say, then what is the motivation to not do something bad in the future?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

They're gonna think of me as this way no matter what. Exactly. I may as well just be what they think I am. Right. I mean, that's how I see it from the outside is like you're giving this person no incentive to change their behavior. Because you've labeled them and cut them off and and made them an outsider. Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

And I, you know, I say this more often than not in sentencings when I'm speaking with uh defendant. Um, and I think it's important for for them to know this that you are not just what brought you here today. You are not just the charges that you pled guilty to.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

There's more to you. You've got family members that are sitting behind you. You know, even though you've had all these things, you've had all these past, you know, experiences, there are still people that show up for you. That says something. Absolutely. And it's important that a person hears that. Um, you know, and I I also, you know, acknowledge, you know, especially if if there's a victim crime, you know, I I get your reaction, I get why you um feel the way you feel. I would probably feel the same way if I was in your position. I think it's natural, it's human, it's just, you know, you your feelings are valid. You know, I I feel like I do a lot of sort of validation of people. But I think it, you know, people need to hear that. And I think it's an appropriate thing for me as a judge to say. You know, I I can acknowledge all of those things and I can still hold the person accountable.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Um in a way that's not as blameworthy, perhaps. That that I I feel like it it pulls them forward as opposed to pushing them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

And you know, you don't have to be mean about it.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Yeah. Now you talked before, you know, obviously

How a judge can make the courtroom less sterile

SPEAKER_01 52:20

that about a different world. People are coming into this world, right? As a judge, that's your world. You work there every day. The prosecutor, the defense attorney, we're used to to certain things, right? Oftentimes, uh people accused of crimes, it might be a new world to them. Sometimes it might be a familiar world to them for whatever reason, because of the trauma that they've had. But often, much more often, the victims, it's an absolutely new world for them to come in. What do you think is the responsibility of defense counsel or judges to explain this world to those newcomers, including victims? Because you know, they have victims advocates and they have prosecutors, but I worry sometimes if they're sharing the message about this world and why it's taking so longer and everything else. And like all of us have a responsibility to reduce the tension, to reduce that pressure. Do you feel that as a judge, that there's any responsibility that you have to just explain the system to the victims as well?

SPEAKER_00 53:29

I think I do, okay. Um, as a judge. And I I I try to acknowledge that when I have very serious, especially very serious cases where there's um uh a victim and their family, and just say, you know, I get that this process is slow, and it sometimes is not very compassionate. You know, we might have a day-long motion hearing on various legal topics, and the family of the victim might be in court listening to the lawyers make arguments about what evidence should or shouldn't come in. And it just sounds very sterile um without any sort of emotion. And I have just sort of taken upon myself to explain. I understand this whole process, we've been talking about this in a very sort of clinical way, um, and I get that it's not the most welcoming or um compassionate um method, but it's it's important. We have to do this because ultimately we have to get the case resolved in a way that um we want it resolved. We don't want to do it again.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Um and so I feel like for me, um, I can take that opportunity uh and explain that. Obviously, you know, the DA's office has the victim witness person, they have that opportunity to make those same sort of statements and they have more interaction.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Yeah, you know, and they may or may not be the messengers in that same way. Right. I mean, I don't I'm I don't know. I'm not a party to that. Right. So I I just don't know. Right. Um do you find that to be helpful? Have you seen just even anecdotally through your experience that your having these conversations with victims has you know dissipated the emotion, dissipated some of the anger, helped them process or feel in a way that I think ultimately we want them to?

SPEAKER_00 55:37

I don't know because I don't get sort of post-case feedback on what people think as far as what what happened with with process. Um so uh I don't know. I would like to think that there's at least some level of that, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah. As a defense attorney, I worry sometimes that there's been harm on the other side, right? Somebody has been harmed, and there's no doubt about that harm. But there's a process that we have to go to, and then we eventually get to sentence, and maybe my client's taking responsibility for all of the harm, some of the harm, a part of the harm, but it's taken so long that it's created stronger feelings because the victims are like, how come it took so long for somebody to issue an apology? And you and I know, well, there's just no there's no vehicle for that to happen before now. But the public doesn't know that, and that creates some very passionate, strong feelings. What do you think we as a system can do better to help with that?

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Yeah, that's hard because you know, I certainly have had instances when I was a defense attorney, and I've certainly have been told by other defense attorneys who have said in sentencings, you know, my client has been apologetic from day one, but there's just no way for him to convey that until this day. Um and there's lots of reasons why. You know, you might be litigating some issues that legally might uh reduce culpability that don't necessarily have to do with factual culpability, but legal culpability. And you put yourself in a position where you might undermine that if there are certain statements that are made. Um but yeah, you know uh people don't know that. People just assume that, you know, this apology is now being done at the last minute and it's just something that was just cooked up to try to get sympathy when that might not be the case.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Do you think there's room for us to create a space for that beforehand? Even or an opportunity for that?

SPEAKER_00 57:55

So I think if there were more of uh restorative justice, then that might be the vehicle to do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Um, but it's hard in you know your really serious cases to even think about doing something like that.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

I just think of in cases now I'm at in the by point in my career where a lot of times now I'm dealing with cases where there's a death. There's no like there's a death. Somebody has suffered an incredible loss, and we know that there's that been that loss. That that fact isn't going away, right? And that's a fact that's impacted somebody. But legal culpability, moral culpability might have something. It might even be that my client was clearly the driver. But I wish that we could get to that restorative justice pre-plea in some ways. Like uh and I don't know, I'm I'm struggling to try to figure though that out. Um, and I feel like we just don't do a good job of that, and we need to. Like, it's our responsibility to try to figure that out because people can we can get them there sooner, and that's gonna help everybody. That's gonna make your job easier, it's gonna make the DA's job easier, it's gonna make my job easier if there's just less suffering, less pain.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

Yeah um I don't know. Any any words of wisdom, any thoughts on how we can how we can do that pre-plea in in in some way, or set up an environment in which uh there's less less anger at the sentencing, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:30

I mean, I I wish I had an answer because um it is important. Yeah, there are um there's real value in an apology. And if sometimes if that could be delivered, um it would go a long way to healing. Yeah um but the way we have things set up, you know, the adversarial system, um, it's just not conducive to that. And I don't know what the solution is.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Yeah. Well, it might be just what you talked about, just even acknowledging some of this, communicating with uh the victims in a way that recognizes them and understands and just teaches them about our world. Is that something that you've just done on your own naturally? Is that something that they're promoting more at judicial colleges or within you know the the back chambers in in uh Dane County? What why do you think it is that you've come to do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

I think it's just a product of having been in the defense chair and now in you know on the bench. Um and it's been evolving. You know, when I first started, I don't think I was taking the time to sort of think about those things because I was learning the job.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

You know. Um and now that I've been in this role for um six years, um, I can think about those things and acknowledge those things. And also just, you know, um being more confident in the job and the the mechanics of the you know the foundational stuff with the law, and then okay, now that I have that under control, I can sort of start thinking about these more um esoteric things that really probably have more impact than it's maybe like math.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:35

You gotta learn the math first before you can transfer that knowledge on to the person you're tutoring or the person that you're teaching, yeah. You know, for a long time, you're just you're learning the content of being a judge. Right. And now you're learning the translation skills, you're getting to those points that you can you can pass that on, right? Yeah, yeah. As a as just one more area here, as a criminal defense attorney, I the oftentimes I'm trying to humanize my client, I'm trying to make sure somebody sees who my per who my client is, right? Sees them in, as you say, three dimensions, four dimensions, not just the two-dimensional text. And I know you did that as a criminal defense attorney as well. I've been in front of judges in my career that while I think they appreciate that, they're also uh lean into being removed. I need to be objective. I need to not do that. And it almost sometimes feels as if it's they're distancing themselves from the humanity of what they're doing. I don't know whether that's because I think they that improves their decision making, if it's a protection for them because like there's some hard shit that you need to do as a as a judge, and it's probably hard to connect. Do you how do you deal with that as a judge? Because I'm I'm I want you to see him. I want you to get down there and like touch his hand before you do him harm. Because I think that that's gonna make it less likely that you're going to do him harm. And again, I know it's metaphorical here, but how do you how do you balance that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

How do you see that? So for me, I the more I can know about someone, the better.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

Um, I like more information. Um, and that's true of defendant, that's true of victim, that's true of you know anyone that that comes in. Um because I think it's important. Yeah um I think it's important that if I'm going to be sending someone to prison that I know who the person is. Sure. Or at least have been given the opportunity to try to know who the person is. Um it's not in my view fair to be sort of distant and you know, um not acknowledging the humanity of someone that is going away to prison. I need to know that humanity.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

It's important for me to know it, it's important for me to acknowledge it, um, it's important for that person to know that I acknowledge it. Because to the extent that there might be just some little bit of spark that my comments have to either prevent the person from being in that same spot in the future or at least help guide them in the next phase of wherever they are. Um I'd much rather have that ability than just not at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Sure. Just like a an attorney who comes there and needs to show character and ethos to get credibility, it sounds like you're saying as a judge, you have a position that just gives it to you, but your words are empty unless you can show the listener the same thing. It's it's almost the same role. Like you have to establish your credibility with your audience, which is oftentimes my client. Right. Uh and to do that is to just acknowledge their humanity. Yeah. So that's wonderful. Well, last question, right? What at the end of the day, like some of the work that you do, right? Sentencing is the most difficult work that anyone could imagine. Like, what motivates you to come to work every day uh to do the job that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

I think I'm just an I'm an optimist. Okay. I like to think that you know, there is some good that's gonna come out of the day of work that I have. Yeah. What that is, I don't know. Sometimes I I don't necessarily see it right away. Um Um you know, as a teacher, you don't really see the fruits of your labor until years later sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Um, and so that's kind of the the thing that kind of gets me going is that I I'm hopeful that you know I have these sometimes brief interactions with individuals and I may never see them again. But I would just like to think that there is something that came through the process that helped them in some measurable way.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Sometimes it just takes a one-degree nudge in one direction that gets them on the gets them turning in the right path. Absolutely. And I imagine you're you're somebody that occasionally uh gives that nudge. I do my best. Well, thank you for joining us here. This has been wonderful. Uh appreciate it. Yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to Sanctuary in the Jungle. This episode was brought to you with the help of Maid Daily and Nelson Defense Group. If you haven't already, be sure to check out our companion articles on Substack. With every episode, I take a deeper dive into the topic at hand, applying the theme to real cases and issues, sharing how it helped me to improve my practice. If you want to learn more, subscribe at Sanctuary in the jungle.com. That's sanctuary in the jungle.com. We'll see you next time at the library. Until then, stay strong and carry the hope.