Designing with Intention: David Hoang on Building the Right Things First

What does it take to make design a growth engine and not an afterthought?

David Hoang, VP of Design at Atlassian and former design leader at Webflow, Replit, and One Medical, joins First Builders to share how intentional design can transform messy startup fog into clear, scalable roadmaps.

As a designer, executive, angel investor, and writer of the Proof of Concept newsletter (11K+ subscribers), David brings a unique perspective on blending art, systems, and strategy to build products people actually use.

In this episode, David shares:
– Why “design is infrastructure” and how that applies at the pre-seed stage
– When founders should hire their first designer (and the red flags to watch for)
– Lessons from building and scaling design teams at Webflow, Replit, and Atlassian
– How authenticity and consistency can shape a founder’s public voice

It’s a conversation for founders, operators, and anyone who wants to build with intention, without losing sight of craft.

Follow David Hoang
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhoang
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/davidhoang
Newsletter: Proof of Concept

Show Notes

• David’s journey from early IC designer to VP of Design at Atlassian
• Why design is more than aesthetics—it’s infrastructure for growth
• Red flags when a company “thinks” it values design
• Advice for founders hiring their first designer
• Building design teams that scale across healthcare and SaaS industries
• David’s newsletter: Proof of Concept

Books mentioned:
– The Humane Interface by Jeff Raskin
– The Art and Soul of Dune by Tanya Lapointe

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Transcript

0:04

Welcome to First Builders, the podcast for those who shape companies from the ground up. I'm Amber Illig, founder and general partner at the Council Capital, where we invest in early teams solving critical problems in essential industries. And I'm Rachel Choi, partner at the Council. This podcast is about a group of people who are more likely than average to land executive roles or found unicorn companies. We explore the moves that propelled them to where they are today and what early stage founders can learn to accelerate their own growth. We call them first builders. Whether founders or early team members, first builders create the core functions, teams, and systems that power great companies. They don't just work at startups, they help define them. And today's guest is one of the clearest thinkers and most intentional builders that I've had the pleasure of learning from. David Hong is a designer, executive leader, advisor, angel investor, and someone who can turn the messy startup fog into a clear creative roadmap. He's helped shape the early DNA of companies that now serve millions. Currently, he is a VP of design at Alassian, and previously he held design, led design at Replit, Webflow, and One Medical. He's also been sharing design, product tech, and culture musings with the world via his newsletter, Proof of Concept, since 2019. It's a huge honor to have David on the podcast today. First off, he was an early believer in backer in the Council Capitol, and he's brought many incredible people our way since. Secondly, if you've lived in Silicon Valley long enough, you know that it can sometimes feel like a bit of a rat race. And that's why I find David so refreshing, and I think you'll see the same. You can sit with him for coffee and talk big ideas without the pretense. Not only is he at the top of his game as a designer turned design leader, but he's a full-on champion for true craft and the design community. David, welcome to First Builders. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Really excited about this. We're excited. So let's let's go ahead and start at the beginning. You talked about being drawn to both art and systems from a young age. What led you to design and then what made you stay in the profession? Yeah, I think like many people my generation, so what you call a geriatric millennial, uh, I started, I kind of stumbled into design. And it's just one of these serendipitous moments that I think you don't know until you see it or kind of run into it. But growing up as a kid, I was always really enamored with visual arts drawing. I remember always rating my uncle's like comic book collection and just like, you know, it's just as a kid, you just draw all the time. And through high school and college, just really had an interest in in the visual arts and in art history. And, you know, really didn't have a plan. I think like really my most solidified plan was going to grad school, getting my MFA, and maybe being an art instructor. But one of the things that was really helpful at the school I went to, it was very multidisciplinary and encouraged a lot of electives. So I ended up taking a lot of humanities courses, philosophy, and and computer science just because I was really interested in that. So, you know, during the Great Recession of like the 2000s, so much like a lot of my colleagues trying to figure out what to do. And it's really interesting when those volatile times can really make shape of something that's really interesting and something you better than you could even imagine. It just happened to coincide with the time, you know, the iPhone launched and iOS became a big thing, and it was kind of this new form factor. And the way I stumbled into design was really um, you know, a lot of these engineers frantically trying to find people who can make these beautiful schemomorphic layouts in Photoshop. So I kind of just started my switch from art to being a production designer and really I kind of got into the craft that way. And uh, you know, have always kind of really worked closely with engineering. So like, you know, from that step went from kind of art and it more into design. And though they're not mutually exclusive, I think uh the thing that I really liked about design was art to me always felt more like self-expression. And design was something where I think being able to take like something and build something that people would use and have value and have impact. So that was something that was really special for me. And I think that's really what keeps me in design today, where you can kind of take expression and some of the practicality to really create these experiences that can really be at different scales, very, very impactful for people's livelihood. Yeah, and I want to go back to one thing you said. You mentioned you graduated basically in a recession, you know, it was not always easy at the start. Uh, and that feels a lot like today, I imagine, for a lot of college students graduating, master's students graduating, and trying to figure out like how do I fit into this new normal because we've had like kind of a wonky economy for the past few years. And um, but we have this like fresh new opportunity of AI. So I appreciate you sharing that because I think that's helpful for uh younger, younger folks trying to figure out their way to see what you've been able to accomplish since then. Yeah, it's just one of those things where um I'll just say a lot of my colleagues moved back with their parents, right? And that may be a thing that people are feeling now, but just from there, like it's good to give yourself, even like, you know, not only in startups, but in your own life, just some runway to kind of think and and and explore, like, you know, what is something like bold you can t do and take in uh in times where things are kind of reshaping. Yeah. And and speaking of bold, I mean, if someone pulls up your LinkedIn, like you've clear they would clearly see that you've had like a really great career that's has a lot of household name brands like One Medical and and Um Web Replit and Webflow, um, and Atlassian, of course. But you shared publicly that it wasn't always easy to get that start. So was there a particular role early on in your career that was like a really big jumping off point for you? Yeah. The first one I think of, and I think for Amber, this is literally gonna hit home a lot, was you know, one of my first roles was at a company called Exact Target that started in Indianapolis. And to me, that was like my first company where I really felt like I was starting to work in tech. You know, ET was also a company where when I joined, like they were in like an extreme hypergrowth phase. This was before the IPO, this was before the Salesforce acquisition. And I really didn't know better, if I was honest with you. I was just like, you know, uh I was in my my twenties at the time and started kind of working in tech and started to see like how you know it started shaping up and and being in a place where things were growing and changing really rapidly. So I I always fondly remember those moments of like being able to kind of make that transition. I think for me, and I think for a lot of people, you know, the next generation, there's probably a lot of like FOMO and pressure at the time. Like a lot of my my colleagues were they were moving to San Francisco, they're working at the the cool tech companies, the the Googles of the world, and I was still trying to figure it out too. And I think for me, you know, and when I look back at my career, I tell people it's like, you know, none of this was really intentional. It kind of all kind of connects in, you know, looking backwards in a lot of ways. And and the thing I always say now, it's just like when when I think about any anything in my career, just first and foremost, I'm just like, what's that story I want to tell? Right. Like what are the people who are the people I want to remember working with and and also have an impact. But yeah, I would say, you know, that that that first one was definitely exact target, really um having the opportunity to to start working in tech. Yeah. I was really hoping you'd mention exact target. Um I think a lot of peak people on the West Coast don't necessarily know what it is, but being from Indianapolis, yeah, being from Indianapolis, it's like a huge local success story. It basically had like a $2.5 billion acquisition by Salesforce. So it was one of those like local ecosystem pollination moments where a lot of people kind of got their start there and and then started other startups as a result. So super cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really cool. So when you, you know, you were in kind of like more of the IC role on the design side. When and why did you decide to actually move over into design leadership rather than remain in the IC side? You know, it's funny. In my early career, I was like, I'm never gonna be a manager. Managers are completely useless. Like, why would you from designers all the time, by the way? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. The the biggest, uh yeah, for sure. It's like, was a manager even gonna do for me? And like I always wanted to really like carry like honing in your craft and just being the best crafts person was important to me. It still is, you know. But I think when I kind of moved into leadership, there were a couple of things. So it was not intentional, just kind of with that mindset. It's just kind of like I think some of the best leaders are the the reluctant leaders, right? They're never looking like I want to be in this role so I can have this sort of you know influence or or control. But I think you step into it as a way to be able to scale impact and be able to, you know, have have more leverage too. So for me, my few leadership opportunities were when there was a transition and there was an opportunity to take on like the organization. So, you know, like Black Pixel, where I was before one one medical, and you know, that was a moment where like Kimber Lockhart, our CTO, was like uh, you know, asked me if I wanted to take on this role of leadership. And for me, I what I kind of realized was like there's only so much you can do, like quite literally as an IC, you know, in your area of impact. So there's only so much time in the world to focus on one area. And then I said, if I if I was able to move in this leadership route, uh I can work with other designers, work across the organization upward to kind of help influence the things that are most important. And I think that's always what I've felt is important is just leading through the craft and and the impact first. And you know, you can do that in different roles. But that was really what instigated me moving in in into management more more formally was was that opportunity. But it was something I, you know, if I were honest with you, I never like planned on it. It just kind of happened. Yeah. I mean, definitely the scaling with impact. I think there's a lot of people that will resonate with that. I think about that too, in terms of my journey. And I'm sure I know Amber and I have talked about that, just the opportunities that you get with impact as you get into these leadership roles and the influence across the company and then also on how you know the companies are shaped. So it's really great to hear that. Yeah. And I I feel like just having been inside of organizations too, I've seen that every team needs this, but certainly design, like having somebody who's a strong advocate that comes in, especially like participating in executive reviews, where like not all the designers are there to share their point of view. So you need, you know, somebody there explaining why we should have a certain quality bar and why we should be thinking about things a certain way. So kind of shows, I think, back to your early comment about like why do we even need managers? I think that's what you can add, particularly if you're somebody who has spent time getting to know the craft before kind of moving into that role. So super cool. Okay. So we can't bring you on the podcast without discussing how founding designers are kind of having a moment right now. What do you have to say to founders or to designers who are thinking about starting a company or even thinking about joining as like employee number one or two? Yeah. Uh this may be a hot take for me coming from a design background, but I guess my first my first belief is not every designer should be a founding designer. And I think it takes a certain type of designer to be able to do it because I think when you're in a founding designer role, uh there's a lot of interesting things that come with that. You know, whether you're the first designer or you're a designer who's starting a company. And I think, you know, what's tough for a a lot of designers is being able to balance. I always say the best like founding designers, you have to contradict yourself a lot of times, where it's like, you know, sometimes you want this pixel perfect design that you want, and that's really why you want to start something to really kind of shape that vision. And though that's important, you now are responsible for so many other things, especially a design founder. You're responsible for the constructs of the business and like thinking about how to apply design across the company. And that might be something, you know, comes down to we can't do the rebrand. We need to hire someone to work on go to market or something else. So I think the best design founders like know how to balance that like pushing craft and applying that impact across the areas of the business. And so I think that's like my first reaction is like, you know, when we I I do think I do believe in the the power of like designer, like first designers coming in and shaping it, but it is a thing you have to recognize the stage in which like where the company is and then have that vision to be able to mature it. Because I think if you if you stick too much to your conviction as a practitioner, as a designer, it could be things that are detrimental to the business too. So you have to be comfortable with with that iteration cycle. So for those who are perfectionists, it's a little bit a little bit of a challenge, right? Like I've I've known some designers where they want want to start a you know, they're starting a company, they might raise a seed round or just like a friends and family round, and then they spend all their time working on the pitch deck or something. So yeah, it's like you have to be uncomfortable, you have to be comfortable like switching modes and how you apply design, not just like the pure craft of it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Stage is super important. And, you know, you've been at a lot of, you know, different companies in those growing stages, and especially, you know, companies that later went public. Um, curious about when you're dropped into like the chaos of like that growing company. Is there anything that you look for in particular first? Yeah, that's a good question. I think for me, the thing I always look for, you know, I think, yeah, with exact target and and one medical, those were kind of like my first arcs of hypergrowth companies that that rapidly changed quickly. I think for me, it's just kind of really thinking about the trajectory of kind of where things are going and just like how fast that transformation's happening. Because I think it's like, you know, for me, hypergrowth is not only about like the headcount or the, you know, that growing, but how much the maturity is growing from uh, you know, the the revenue velocity and you know how you need to think about scaling orgs and it's it's that it's that awkward growth stage for for a lot of people. So, you know, every like Webflow and One Medical, especially, like I felt like every year there felt like working at a different company. And, you know, and I think you know, if and for me, company building is the thing I I I love being a part of too. So that's kind of the things I kind of look forward to kind of like, you know, where's this company now? Like, what is the trajectory? But in addition to trajectory, like what are the growth phases they might be going through? And how can how can I help? Right. And some people enjoy it, some people hate it too, you know. So it's like um yeah. The pace of change, yeah, I'm sure it can be. Yeah. Yeah. Was there anything like I'm curious, like if you know, from one medical, like being a very healthcare focused kind of company and then Webflow or Lassian or Replit, like more on like the enterprise side, like was there any commonalities across those as you were building and scaling? Or do you think that they just they all had like their own trajectories? Like I said, like from a sector perspective. Yeah. Um I'll tell you what the common thread is. I'm I think the common thread is really kind of fostering behavior change over time. And it's very different people, right? So but uh behavior change in in in workflows and tools. That is something that you know I've kind of said throughout my career, it's been a common thread, whether it's a doctor or it's a Majira admin, right? It's like, of course, the stakes are a little bit different in in different capacities, but but what is kind of common is really applying the user experience and and the workflows and tools for people. So I remember at one medical, it was really challenging to make a lot of changes in the workflows, even like the button position of something. But if you're thinking about like a clinician who's seeing like dozens of patients every single day, the UI is not even the thing they're thinking about, right? They're thinking about the person who needs care uh wait waiting in the guest room. So or waiting in the waiting room. And like, um, and you think so they're they have this habit that they've been doing for decades, and all of a sudden it changes. They're just like, oh my goodness, this is so challenging. Um, Webflow, Replit, you know, I think uh designers and developers have these habits, have these perspectives. They spend, they spend so much of their livelihood in the workflows, you know, whether it's their own livelihood or livelihood of and dependency on the organizations, that to me has been the common thread from, you know, like my entire career is just like the the the tools and workflows and what impact what impact that could be. And you talked about kind of um, you know, joining a growing company where every single year feels different. I think Rachel and I could probably relate with Komodo and Cruz, but I'm curious, like how did your mindset and approach change to joining a new company when you were dropped into a large company like Atlassian? That must have been like a semi-different experience just given the stage. Yeah. You know what's interesting is with Atlassian, I thought it was gonna be a huge major change. And and I think Atlassian is like that it's probably that perfect size to kind of have like it be familiar. So I think what makes it feel a little bit smaller is uh there's like it's one of the first places I've been where there's a there's a portfolio of companies, right? A lot of the places I've worked, the product was like quite literally the company. The business existed to to build the product, right? But I think um, you know, what Atlassian has done well over the almost two decades of existence is like portfolio construction in that. But I think um I think even so just kind of in the dynamics of the market, what I believe is gonna be like an AI revolution, I think a lot of Atlassian like feels a little bit more of like a still like going in their growth stage, right? It's like it's just kind of funny to see like a company that has IPO'd now going through their growth stage in in a lot of ways. So again, that's why I kind of tell people it's like you know, the growth and scaling is not about like you know what round you're in or if you're pre-IPO or post, but kind of like the the market dynamics, like where the where the business is going and like some of these new frontiers like mobile and AI, like those are kind of the things that are around uh navigating growth. But but it is like, yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised how uh how comfortable it's been. You know, there might be some nuances where it's like, you know, at a startup you get access to these tools like a lot quicker and like in a more corporate setting. I'm like my my first week was just getting single sign-on working and all that stuff, but you know, in the grand scheme of things, not too bad. Yeah, well, what you shared is probably a good sign because I think there's probably a lot of these mature companies that are gonna struggle to kind of read the room and and figure out how do we fit into this new AI world where we have all these tools at our fingertips and all these startups popping up. I think it's a huge opportunity, not only for the startups, but also for these bigger companies to figure out like how do we sort of rethink things sometimes from a first principle's perspective. So it's good to see you feel like they're kind of going through a growth stage right now. So yeah. Yeah. And the thing I'd say, Amber, it's like, you know, just being open, like when I joined Atlassian, I was kind of thinking about like, wow, you know, a lot of my experience has been in startups, not so much in like the the larger enterprise. But to what you touched on, I think many if many of the enterprise companies right now are kind of really thinking of this as an excess existential moment of like what does B2B even look like in a world where it's much smaller teams, you know, it's not gonna look like what you know, I I'm pretty confident it's not gonna be what it looks like today. And just kind of going through that transformation. The thing that gave me like feeling a little bit uneasy about I felt actually become a differentiator where like all these companies want to figure out how to work like a startup, how to be lean in that regard. So it's it's like was really perfect time timing to join. Yeah. It just related to that, the thing you said about like how B2B is really going to change given everything going on with AI right now. Do you subscribe to that? There's been this like notion going around that SaaS is dead. Like, do you think that the entire model is completely going to be dead? Or is it um is it just like the monetization path changes and the products are similar, but they're built in a different way and they're distributed in a different way? Just curious how you sort of think about that. Yeah. Uh I'll share, I'll share my personal perspective on it. Is I do think do you think SaaS will die if SAS itself doesn't kind of transform how it how it works and and function? But I will also say it it it in the tech world and in like the SaaS world, it takes a long time for things to die too. So I think it's not gonna happen overnight because you know, for us, like really being in the heart of tech and like kind of that, you know, that that early adopter phase and crossing the chasm, we forget there's still a lot of these legacy companies that are very behind trying to modernize in that way. So I I don't think it's gonna happen overnight. I do think the things are gonna be important. Like to me, if I were just future casting, what I think it's gonna be is yeah, I think the teams are gonna be a lot leaner or smaller. Scott Belski talks a lot about like the talent stack collapsing. So a lot of these roles might be different, right? Like there may not be just a designer, an engineer, and a product person, but it's one person using AI tools to really kind of leverage that. I think I think the opportunity for SAS is to really what I like to call own the handshake, where it's like these sort of moments where it's like partnerships with whether it's customers or Other integrations. That's why I'm really excited about something like you know Model Context Protocol MTP, where it's like, I don't think it's gonna like completely bring down the walled gardens of SaaS, but it does kind of force SaaS companies to think about like, okay, how do you kind of modernize the partnerships and things? You can't just you can't just vendor lock anymore because the speed to be able to like switch to something else is like so much faster, right? You can go from like one cloud IDE one day and almost like bring everything over. So I think I think that's gonna be important for like SaaS companies to think about how do you start how do you start modernizing that era? And I think the thing uh the forewarning I would give a lot of these like enterprise companies is like you can't rest on the laurels that it's like, hey, you know, these things aren't aren't going to change. But, you know, like even thinking about next generation builders, like they are gonna have a completely different lens in like what they want to be using and what they expect from. And if you don't adapt to that, then you know, you're gonna become irrelevant pretty fast. Yeah. Um, so switching gears back to kind of more on the early stage side, um, you know, we often hear in the industry that some early stage founders, you know, maybe they can't afford design yet, right? Especially if they're not like a founding designer. Maybe they're more on the engineering side or more on the sales side. What's your response when you hear something like that? Yeah. It's a good question. Part of me doesn't believe that is because I'm kind of like, like, you know, when you when someone sees their first first few hour hires, a lot of it's prioritization, right? And I think I might need to fact check this, but I think like, you know, with Mercury, like Juliana, who's their VP of design, first designer, she might have been like the third employee or like pretty, pretty early. So that's an example of a company that's like, hey, like design's important, you know. So you know, I think when I talk to a lot of founders and a lot of early stage startups, and they say we can't afford a designer, but I'm like, what have you spent before that? You know, what have you spent on infrastructure? What have you spent on go to market? You know, sometimes I feel like it's it's almost an excuse. But that said, I think, and again, it's uh it's a spectrum too, right? Because then you can over-index on design in that regard. I think the thing that's really cool to see, and of course, like I'm I'm personally invested in this, is seeing that more designers are interested in becoming early stage investors and advisors. And now there's kind of this network and community for founders to have access and have some guidance in in the work too. So um, you know, I think when I kind of was in my career, it was you could count the design investors like, you know, in one hand, you know, and now at least starting to see a lot more blooming. So that's really cool. So I think that's been that'd be kind of my advice to a lot of the founders is like, you know, like like get you if you can't afford a designer, you know, like get get one on the cap table or get, you know, like work with funds that can give you access to that. And yeah, even that short time can provide um a lot of value. And and that's where I like spending my time is I actually like spending time with companies where they don't have a designer to to be able to kind of help, like, you know, provide guidance in kind of different paths it can take too. Yeah, and we've seen that a lot of like top companies that have ended up becoming unicorns and decacorns actually started off either with a founding designer as a co-founder or with design as something that was like valued early on in the company. I know even when I worked at Snap, that was like probably Evan Spiegel's favorite. I don't know if he would consider himself a designer by trade, but that was like the place that he spent all of his time. And you see that at like Figma, Airbnb. It's definitely in the early DNA of the company. And now I feel like VCs and early stage startups are starting to catch on to that. So you're seeing a lot more emphasis on like how do we get that early support, whether it's through a designer or through an advisor or through an early hire. But I was chatting with sort of like a top recruiter in design in the Bay Area, Garrett Fowler, and he was just saying that like a lot of designers just don't want to join companies if they don't feel that the company values design. Um so I'm curious, you know, what's what sort of things can founders do that are not maybe they're not designers by trade, but they, you know, when they're having those conversations with designers and getting them excited to join the team, what are the sort of things that they can discuss they can have with the designer to kind of show that they truly care? Yeah. First, uh Garrett's awesome and yeah, glad to glad he was on the you had a chance to chat with him. I think um you know, the way I would say it to founders is I think for designers, it's like it's first knowing like what success looks like as a founding designer or a co-founder that's a designer, because I think the n I'll tell you the number one mistake is in what's really disappointing for designers kind of talking to startups is when there's a founder that reaches out and it's like, you know, we need a designer, and you're talking to a product designer and they're like, Hey, we need like pitch decks or we need like marketing materials, and they're like, There's just a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I would say, you know, for founders or kind of people looking to kind of bring on design and is talk about like what are the areas where there's impact and what are the outcomes, right? So I think to me, the the the founders who are designers or founding designers, where it's most successful is and I think where they want to have impact is across the entire company. Because for many of us, like, no, let's be real, like design often gets like added on later. There's already been like um decisions already made. So when you're a designer, you you never really get to kind of really be intentional in the decision-making process early on. You're dealing with tech debt, you're dealing with organizational debt, and these other things. And I think for like if I was pitching for a designer come board, it's like, hey, these are the areas where you can help decide on what the intended outcomes are, and that's done through design. Whether that is how do we think about our hiring process or how do we think about the product UI. So again, I think I think what's helpful is just getting clarity to what type of designer you want to bring on. There's so many different specializations, it may depend on industry too or sector uh in in that regard too. Yeah, I love that. It reminds me of what you were saying earlier about how you connect your different companies that you've been at, where they're all about like user behavior change and how that's again so much more expansive than maybe what an early stage founder is thinking, like, oh, we need help with like the pitch decks or like you know what you're saying, Amber, with the pixels and moving those in the ground. It's really about the company building and like the vision and outcome there. So that's awesome. Yeah, I remember at one medical that was really fun to be able to have design impact there and like other things. So one of the one of my favorite projects was working on revamping employee onboarding and doing something like that, right? Because it was like we were um we were in our tiny office on Souther Street Market and we were kind of bursting at the seams when we were really growing. And it was kind of hard to kind of not have a like know when new people are started. So, you know, we got to design like, hey, when people start in the first day, we designed these like welcome balloons. So when like a new person joined at their desk, it just kind of broadcasted a signal for people to come in and say hello. And it's like those are the cool things about designing like at a startup too, is like not only experience for like the product you're building, but really being able to think about that because you think about like the behaviors and the psyche, the like the first impression someone will have in on their first day if you didn't have any signal and they then no one ever came up to them and said it might feel a lot different than when there's something to really kind of celebrate that. So I think those are kind of like the the really small like design the design work that can really also be impactful. Yeah. That's awesome. Um when you I'm curious now, as a as an executive leader in design, when you advocate for the design team inside of a company, how do you balance giving strong design opinions versus stepping back and kind of letting the the founders and other members of the team kind of find their way a little bit? Yeah, it's a good question. I think for me, this may be a contrarian thing, but for me it's really you do want to lead with a lot of conviction. And I think that's important because one of the lessons I learned in my career is like people want to know like what you believe and what your point of view is, but that doesn't mean you know it it has to be like my way or the highway. But I think that helps kind of people think about the clarity in like how they should be thinking about the work, you know. And they think um, you know, I I remember this like all the time. So Amir Dan Rubin, who was our CEO at One Medical, he always kind of said the same three words. He's like, our priorities perform, innovate, and grow, which is funny because PIG is the acronym. Uh, but but and I was like, man, he keeps just saying that like every day. It's like, but that's as a leader, that's so important, right? It's just like, how do you like distill things to the simplest form to provide clarity when you're not around so people can like think about the decisions and to be able to give people a clear picture and the highest fidelity of like what you believe and what you care about, it helps them think through it, right? And and then they'll be able to make their decisions on like, you know, like some people might know, like, hey, David cares about this thing, but I have this context. I'm comfortable making the decision on it too. And and and then I think uh, you know, with founders, worked with a lot of founders in my career, and I think it's important to bring something in to challenge the point of view too. Like uh, and I think the founders want that as well. I always encourage people, it's like you you you want people to know like what you're about just as you're joining, and then and then like you'll find ways to adapt to the company. So then it gives people like a baseline and kind of like know know what what they expect from you. Yeah, and the fact that you still remember the the acronym, you know, that clearly stuck with you, right? Like it worked. It's funny. Anytime I see X1 medical colleagues, we're like perform, innovate, grow. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, yeah, so right. So important. Something like that. Yeah. So I know we know that you work, you know, obviously with a lot of first-time founders. You're an angel advisor, um, angel investor and an advisor as well. Is there a piece of advice that you give more than any other? Question. Let me think for a second. I think the one thing the one thing I say to every founder that I work with is like it's really nothing nothing novel or nothing like mind blowing, but I think it's kind of making sure like I always feel like the number one way to be productive or have impact is to to reduce the iteration cycle. So like again, don't be don't be a perfectionist on this stuff. And it's like, you know, it's not gonna be you know, zero to a hundred that you have to get to a hundred percent, but it's maybe iterating each percent on the stuff because uh, you know, for early stage like time is of the essence, and it's like, you know, and I think uh one thing I always remember Amjad saying that replet is he's like, you know, like anyone who kind of knows him is like he he's very zero sum in like everything in life. And he said, look, everything's zero sum, the only thing that is not is time. And I'm like, that's so true, you know, and I think that's like the lesson for the founders is like the moment you have in front of you and the time that you have to be able to like get that out there. And again, just I think as designers, it's it it is uncomfortable to to kind of say that, and but you gotta just like uh get the thing out there and and give yourself more shots on goal to to iterate. Uh and just kind of switching gears again here, you've also kind of built a public voice as a as a person in design, as a design leader through writing and speaking. Was that kind of a conscious personal brand strategy or did it happen organically? Yeah, like anything in my life, it kind of happened organically. Yeah, because I wasn't like, I want to be a speaker and and do that. Like, you know, the same way I used to think managers were worthless, I thought speaking and then that stuff was too. But I'll tell you what I learned from it. So I think one of the first people who encouraged me to speak is uh a woman named Jamie Newberry. Like we overlapped at at Black Pixel, and she gave talks that I was like really excited about. And, you know, I remember what she told me was just like, you know, public speaking is really not about yourself and being on the stage, but it's like what what message do you want to scale and get across to people? And she kind of said it was kind of like giving back at scale, which I loved, right? It was like, oh, you have this format and platform to be able to instead of like sharing it with one person, you can share it to the world, and that's the value of it. So that was something that um, you know, I I really loved the framing of it. And that's what encouraged me to speak and like put stuff out there. The writing in a lot of ways was like um really just a time in my life where I wanted to have more consistency. So I, you know, I was one of those people where they're I kept saying, like, I want to write more. And I'll write like one blog post like every two years and just like said, I didn't know that's like me. Yeah, totally, right? It's like and I think we've all felt that way, right? Because I think we're like, hey, there's so much, like, there's so much stuff out there, like, why would someone listen to me? And one of my mentors just kind of said, like, you know, the one thing you could write about any identical like topic, but the one thing that's gonna be unique is just your own experience, perspective, and voice. That kind of encouraged me to start writing. I I did the first on deck writing program, which was like so much fun. And yeah, that's how I started um from 2019, you know, writing proof of concept is just something where um I've done it consecutively weekly for the past five coming on six years as that. And it was really kind of like building that consistency and holding myself accountable. Oh, there's some weeks where I'm like, I don't even know what I'm gonna write, but you know, because if I brought that consistency in that area in my life, I I thought it would like help in at the workplace, you know, like just my my my personal relationships too, to kind of spread there. But I think I think um, you know, personal brands kind of an interesting thing because I do think it's important to kind of put yourself like out there and be able to really articulate, you know, like what are those things that you have can conviction about. And I think writing's also a great format to connect to uh other areas or connect to other people in relationships that you'd never know, right? There's so many people that I've reached out to because they wrote a blog that really touched me, or you know, I saw a talk, you know, Brett Victor's Inventing on Principle was like one of those talks that just changed how I thought about things. And like those things are like so so valuable. I love that you talked about giving back at scale because I I think like as you progress with in your career, there's so many people that want to pick your brain and want to see and so even just doing things like this, like being on a podcast and talking about your your learnings or or joining a conference or writing your blog, it's a incredible way for others to learn from you without you being like, I'm gonna be in one-on-ones the rest of my life. I know doing mentorship meetings. So yeah. So let's uh let's talk a little bit about where you're at today and looking forward. Um, your current chapter at Atlassian. What made you want to join a bigger company and join Atlassian? And what's sort of your North Star leading design in such a beastly suite of products that you mentioned? Yeah, you know what's interesting? I'll be completely honest. I think when I joined Atlassian, a lot of people were surprised because it was it like it felt like a different shape of a place I would go. But I think for me, what was really interesting is A, I really wanted to be a place that was founder-led. And I think that's something I'll always be a place. Yeah, uh Mike Cannon Brooks. That's rare for so long. Almost 20 years, right? It's great. So again, it's been it's been awesome. Um, so yeah, I wanted to go somewhere founder-led, but I also like you know, wanted to go to a place where just thinking about kind of where things are going moving forward. So, you know, uh of course when I was thinking about the opportunity at Lassian, um, I kind of wrote down the things that I'd wanted to kind of see impact. And, you know, two that come to mind. The first one was just really about like being at a place where there's an organization for design to kind of help think about like what an AI first or AI native world is to kind of build that literacy for the team. At Lassian Design has always had a really strong reputation of like almost the internal community of all the designers working together. You know, and I think I wanted the other opportunity I saw was uh how do you take a company that's had such a rich history of the past 20 years and propel it into the next 20 or the next two years, five years, right? Like everything's kind of changing. So that was like really compelling for me to see like what we can do there. And I think, you know, in in my role, I work on Atlassian Rovo, which is our product at GAID, uh, you know, last last October and really kind of thinking about you know, those new like constructs and ways of working. And again, back to tooling workflows and behavior change, right? And all the customers and people I talked to in the enterprise are like we were trying to figure out the rest of this decade with with AI. And I was just like, wow, I can't think of any better place in Atlassian to be there and make an impact and think about not only the transformation for ourselves, but but our customers too. Yeah, that's awesome. And then how do you think about like building that design team within Atlassian that really just stays curious and doesn't burn out, just given, you know, all of the the changes and challenges ahead, especially in the the AI world that we live in next. Yeah, it's uh it's a weird time for design, right? Where it's kind of like, you know, you look on Twitter and people are always like, Rest in peace, this this discipline, like AI. And you know, and I think for design, it's trying to think about, you know, the things that we're used to doing, the tools we're used to to using is is now being a little bit automated. And like a lot of things like you know, are getting pretty good. And like I almost feel like the baseline is you have to at least be able to design as good as a generative AI now. And I think for me, like what's really exciting is with with gen AI and as and these automations, as these things kind of normalize and you kind of have this baseline of what AI can do. We now have to like think about some of the big challenges, what I like to call kind of I call it new original, uh new originality. Like, what are the things that we need to we have opportunities to really kind of innovate and create uh that that AI hasn't figured out yet, right? And that's kind of like the mindset we have on the design team. The thing I like at Atlassian too is there's there's different groups of design teams. And and I work with Charlie Sutton, our head our head of design. He's someone I've wanted to work with. So it's been like uh not only a portfolio of companies, but like a portfolio of design groups too, to really kind of understand that space. So that's been that's been really fun, you know, in that regard. But yeah, I think uh with AI, it's like every design team is trying to figure it out. And I think uh what's been great is the investment there to use these tools, explore, understand how it's gonna change the constructs of of organizations. It kind of reminds me in the the the early mobile days too. You know, in that regard when mobile became it was such a different form factor and there was a lot of playing around and trying to understand like the implications of these things. Yeah. Cool. What's a new uh like what's an example of a new originality that you've been you know noodling on? The honest answer, Rachel. I I don't think I've seen it yet. You know, like like what are the things and I it may just come over time, right? I think it's like I mean it could be new, like new, new UI patterns, right? So I always tell this story all the time, right? It's like I don't know if he was the first person that created it, but he made it popular. It's just like uh in the mobile era, you know, there was a developer named Lauren Brichter who was working on this app called Tweety, and he was the one that made that pull to refresh pattern really popular. It ended up becoming something adopted at Apple. You know, Path was one that really made popular that that floating action button that people kind of remember. And and I think in design and AI, I kind of wonder like, like, have we seen that pull to refresh moment yet? I don't think we have, right? And I think that's the thing about pushing new originality in that regard. So, you know, whether it's how we do things, how we make, or, or, you know, not only just design patterns, but but things that kind of introduce something new for industry. All right, we're gonna hit you with a few quick fire questions. So say the first thing that comes to mind. I'll let Rachel kick off. Sounds good. So what do you think is the most underrated skill for a founder other than design? We said to go fast, so I gotta go fast. I think the willingness to change your mind. And what's a myth about design that drives you crazy? It's uh just pixels, you know, like design that can design is technical too, you know, it's like so many passes. A book, movie, or album that changed the way you lead. One of my favorite books is The Humane Interface by Jeff Raskin. It's probably behind me somewhere, but just around talking about uh yeah, just kind of um, you know, to me he's Like the the Don Norman of like kind of design engineering, just like really thinking about you know cognitive efficiency and really putting people first and machine systems and more important than ever. Awesome. Best decision you've made in your career? Not going to grad school. So nice. Yeah. So when I was trying to get that MFA, couldn't afford to go into grad school and then got a lot of opportunities working on mobile apps. Nice, nice. What's a mindset shift that helped you grow as a leader? Yeah, I think it's um consistent consistency builds trust. I think uh Polina Maranova, who writes the profile, talks a lot about that. And I think again, perform, innovate, and grow, right? What what Amir would say that consistency is so important as a leader. That's inspiring me to get started with some sort of writing program. What's a piece of startup wisdom that you actually disagree with? Hire great people and get out of the way. I think that's the worst like advice you can give. No matter how great of talent people you you hire, you you need you need to be involved, you need to lead in that regard. Good. Um and before we transition to the last question, I noticed is that is that a Dune board game that you have behind you? No. Um it is a book. Wow, that's a big one. Yeah, it is called um The Art and Soul of Dune. Wow, I love it. Yeah. It's turning into show and tell, but the the one that was most common in my background was was this one. It's the art and soul Blade Runner 2049. So I figured it was time to to switch a book. So I went I went with Dune. Yeah, I didn't realize we were fellow sci-fi lovers, but actually the Dune board game I asked because I'm very addicted to that board game. So now I need to buy it. Yeah, it's great. All right. So last question. If you had a magic wand, what's one thing that you you get three wishes? You can fix one thing for yourself, the startup ecosystem, and the future of product design. What are your what are the three things you would want? My goodness, this is such a tough question. Loaded. Let's see. For myself, I would the magic wand, I would I would say uh, you know, optimal health. I think if you want to do this for a long time, you gotta take care of yourself, right? And I think I have um, you know, fortunately been in places where these things are addressable and and I think that's so important. Like being a founder, it's a marathon, right? It's just not maybe it's not your first company, but your tenth company that you need to show up for. So that longevity. What was the second one for the startup ecosystem? Yeah. Um and so many wishes, but I think I think for me, what I benefited from was a lot of these, like man, I'm trying to think oh, rocket space. That was like a co-working space, like early on in like the early 20s. But I think I think what I'm saying is like I'd wave a magic wand so people have like that space in that community to be able to work on those things. Like, you know, it's it's lonely as a founder. There's a lot of solo founders down there, just kind of like having that comedian space where people kind of understand, like, and it's not even about like the tech, right? But just like being able to talk to other people of like, you know, how hard, um, how hard being a founder can be on your relationship or other things and have that have that support system. And then for uh future product design. Future product design. Okay, this might be a spicy one, but I think it's really if I could wave a magic wand, I'd love for the discourse of like the things you hear about design Twitter go away and like focus on the important stuff. And you know, these are so many things about I remember telling a lot of people on my team this. I was like, you know, there's the there's the designers wanting a seat at the table, right? And I'm like, if you keep acting like this, they're gonna put you in the kids' table, right? And it's like like really like stop playing the victim, like nobody cares about design. It's it's our job to get people to care about design and kind of know what the impact is across the business. So yeah, I think that's I'd wave that magic wand and for designers to really kind of um, you know, like like that is our job, right? Is to kind of like bring that intention and understanding and yeah, maybe not whine about it too much. Yeah, less whining. Yeah. We all we all need to complain, but I mean sometimes I'm like, this is like no one's ever gonna listen to us if we act this way. I'll just react to one thing. I love that you brought up uh just personal health, just because I I see that, you know, all across executives, high performing employees, founders. It's a just a mindset marathon, like you said. And I feel like people don't realize it until it's too late and stress just builds up and it it it comes out in your body in ways you weren't even expecting. And so I think the earlier people can get their minds around that, the better. So yeah. All right, Rachel. Go ahead. Yeah. Awesome. Well, David, thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you and your work online? I think the best place these days is on my website, just davidhong.com. Of course, my sub stack called Proof of Concept. That's probably the best way to engage. Yeah, we can definitely add those in the show notes. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much for um coming on today. It was so great to have you here. Yeah, great chatting with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's awesome to see you. Thank you so much for coming. We'll chat too. That was such a great conversation. Amber, what stood out for you? Yeah, a lot. I probably could have talked to him for another hour, but I think number one, just stylistically as a leader and somebody who's developing his public presence, not only is he authentic and kind of doing it for the right reasons, but I loved what he said about consistency and how that builds trust over time and how it's actually been more of a learned skill than a natural skill for him. I could totally relate, you know, for me, it feels like a huge undertaking to write a blog post and that that notion of like, I'll do one of these big ones every two years, and that perfectionist in me kind of stops me from being consistent on shorter time frames like that. And so I think a lot of people feel like that when they see somebody write 243 bro blog posts like he has, they're like, Oh, I could never do that. But actually, it sounds like that was something he really had to put work into to become that consistent with. And I just respect the fact that, you know, he's still doing it five years later. Totally. Yeah. And then the other thing that stuck out to me was his comment about his transition from healthcare at one medical to working on more SaaS products and enterprise products. And it it resonated a lot because at the council, as you know, we invest in, you know, vertical software for industrial sectors and also healthcare. And I get this question a lot from LPs, especially like why would you invest in those two things side by side? Like it's so much easier to have specialty in one or the other. How, you know, these are totally different things to diligence. And yes, there are a lot of things that make healthcare unique, as you know. And certainly even within industrial sectors, each sector kind of has their own nuance. But I think that is what makes them all common, is that they're all nuanced, they're all complicated, they all involve their own sort of hurdles, whether it's regulatory or other. And it all comes down to designing something for, you know, customers and users that aren't really optimizing for what's on their computer. They're optimizing for some sort of real world operation or real world task that they're doing. And so I think that link of like the workflows and tools that he mentioned is so similar to how we look at things at the council. So that really resonated for me too. Yeah, absolutely. I know the the big thing that he mentioned for me was really related to that, the changing that user behavior. Um, I think part of it just again coming from the customer success background, you know, there's always the uh change management that you need to do. And working with someone who's really skilled at that from like an overall design perspective, um, I think is just so critical. You know, I wish I had a design partner like David. I know. When we're thinking through, right? Like just things that we're doing in the company and things that we can like shape um in terms of even how we onboard, you know, a new customer. So yeah, totally. Well, I I mean, I knew this going into the conversation, but even walking away, I can say David is just a perfect example of a first builder. He's been on early teams at companies before their success was obvious. And I feel like with every move he's made, he's gotten stronger and stronger. And you can really see that as it comes through now. And it seems like he's always showing up early, building the right foundation, but also with humility. Like he's not like, hey, I'm gonna come in and just, you know, transform this place overnight. He's also like humble to understand the stage that the company's in and how they do things. So I I'm really grateful that he shared his story with us, and I hope it inspires our audience as well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you learned something new today, and I I know I have, send this episode to a founder, leave a review, and subscribe to First Builders wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time.