Empathy at Scale: Lauren Makler on Building Cofertility’s Unique Model for Families

What if freezing your eggs could also help another family grow theirs?

In this episode of First Builders, hosts Amber Illig and Rachel Tsui sit down with Lauren Makler, Co-founder and CEO of Cofertility—a groundbreaking fertility company where women can freeze and store their eggs for free if they donate half to a family in need.

Lauren spent nearly nine years at Uber, scaling from marketing to leading strategy at Uber Health before turning her attention to one of the most personal and impactful challenges: fertility. With Cofertility, she’s building a model grounded in empathy, transparency, and community.

In this episode, Lauren shares:
– How her personal journey shaped the vision for Cofertility
– Why empathy is a founder’s superpower in healthcare and family-building
– Lessons from nearly a decade at Uber, from hypergrowth to healthcare strategy
– The power of building mission-driven teams tackling sensitive problems
– How Cofertility is changing the economics and access of fertility care

It’s a story of scaling with purpose, centering humanity in healthcare innovation, and building a company designed to last.

Follow Lauren Makler

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmakler/
• Cofertility: https://www.cofertility.com/
• Cofertility Careers: https://www.cofertility.com/careers

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Transcript

0:04

Welcome to First Builders, the podcast for those who shape companies from the ground up. I'm Amber Illig, founder and general partner at the Council Capital, where we invest in early teams solving critical problems in essential industries. And I'm Rachel Joy, partner at the Council. This podcast is about the people behind the playbooks, those who took a leap early and helped define companies before anyone knew their names. And today's guest is someone reimagining an entire category with bold and deeply personal mission. We're joined today by Lauren Mackler, co-founder and CEO of Co-Fertility, a company radically rethinking ed donation and egg freezing to expand access and create better outcomes for families. Now Lauren spent close to a decade at Uber, rising from brand marketing to strategy lead at Uber Health and co-founded Co-Fertility with Halliteco, the founder of Rock Health. Their model, women can freeze and store their eggs for free, but only if they donate half to a family in need. Lauren, welcome to First Builders. Thanks for having me. Yeah, super excited to have you on here. So would love to just dive in. And, you know, uh, we we know that you've spent almost a decade at Uber. What did those early days teach you about scaling, experimentation, or moving through ambiguity? I mean, I had the the time of my life uh in the the early days at Uber. I joined in 2013 when um we had just about 200 employees and stayed until we had over 20,000. And so I really saw so much happen and so much change there uh and learned quite a bit. I I like to say that I like grew up there or you know, got my MBA at Uber versity. I think that there was so much to be learned for how you test and iterate and like constantly optimizing and realizing that, you know, stone can never be left unturned, right? Like you have to just constantly be looking at things that you've done before to see if there's a better way and that everything is figure outable, right? Like that's one of co-fertility's core values now. But it's this idea that when you're placed on one side of a brick wall, there is always another way to get to the other side, right? You can climb over the wall, you can go around the wall, you can dig a tunnel underneath it, or you can like blow up the wall. But like there is always a way to get to the other side. And I learned that at Uber, and it's something that we certainly talk about and think about very much at co-fertility. That's awesome. And I think it says a lot about you as a founder now. I mean, being willing to break through those walls and go around them and underneath them, et cetera. But like having been through those trenches before, I'm sure that helps you leapfrog a couple of issues as a founder. So yeah, and I'd love to ask, you made a shift from brand and partnerships into healthcare strategy. Yeah. What clicked for you there and how did it set the stage for co-fertility? You know, it's interesting. Before I ever joined Uber, I had done an internship at a place called the Institute for Healthcare Improvement or IHI in Cambridge, which is this massive nonprofit that really just focuses on improving healthcare. And it was there that I actually decided I wanted nothing to do with healthcare. Not because they weren't a great organization, but because I couldn't believe how broken this space was. One of their biggest initiatives at the time, and I remember I think it was about 21, the biggest initiative that had like a million-dollar budget behind it was how do we get doctors to wash their hands? And I couldn't believe it. I was like, what? Like these are supposed to be the smartest people amongst us, right? Like doctors. And we're talking about something as like simple as washing your hands. Like obviously then you should wash your hands. But um, in reality, like that saves so many lives when you know they're cutting back the spread of infection and things that can be carried. And so at the time I remember being really turned off, but it was actually an experiment that we did at Uber that made my eyes really open to what change in healthcare can look like. We partnered with uh his name is Dr. John Brownstein, who is chief innovation officer at Boston Children's, and he's now a mentor and dear friend of mine. Um, but together we partnered on a campaign that essentially delivered on-demand flu shots to people using the Uber app. And what we we did a study around it, and we realized that by putting this in the Uber app, we were able to influence people's decision around whether or not they wanted to get vaccinated with the flu, the flu shot from an awareness standpoint. And then we were able to make it even more convenient by bringing it to their home or to the to their office. And I realized, like, if we know that the barriers to doing it are awareness and convenience, what happens if we take those barriers away? And so then I saw an opportunity for Uber in the healthcare space on a larger scale, which was millions of people miss a doctor's appointment every year because they don't have access to a reliable ride. Well, Uber has reliable rides in spades. What if we help remove that big barrier? And it worked. It was a hundred million dollar business in its first 18 months because people needed to get to the doctor. And now with co-fertility, right, the big barriers. One, egg freezing is this amazing science that exists, and yet the number one barrier is cost, right? So someone needed to do something about the cost barrier. And then on the other side, we have intended parents that are not getting the options that they need in terms of what's available today for third-party reproduction, especially in egg donation, right? It is incredibly transactional and there's a an enormous lack of diversity amongst traditional egg donation programs. And so if we want to solve those two problems, what solution can exist out there? Well, egg sharing, right? This idea that if we take cash compensation out of egg donation and instead enable someone to freeze their eggs for free when they donate half of the eggs retrieved, we are both making egg freezing more accessible, free, and we're making egg donation less transactional at the same time. And so what I realized was that, you know, healthcare doesn't have to be this like super complicated, gnarly, like unsexy problem that no one really wants to solve. But instead, you can look at it like truly like a problem, like a problem statement. And you can come up with a solution that doesn't have to be rocket science. It just has to be something that actually sort of obviously solves the problem. And so I have this like deep feeling, and I know Hallie, my co-founder, does as well, that like we need more smart people building solutions in healthcare. And that comes first with falling in love with the problem. Totally. No, I mean, I love like the example that you mentioned around like the flu shots and then seeing also just like it's a simple problem, I guess, or maybe like, you know, maybe it's not necessarily always easy and you have to think about like the operations and designing it in a way, but like it is about just like meeting people where they're at and where they're operating on a daily basis or you know, interacting on a daily basis just to even get them the awareness and then subsequently the the access to be able to do so, right? Yes. So yeah, so love that. And I love that kind of like connection to how you're thinking about co-fertility as well, which is it's simple, I'm sure not easy, but the idea is is simple and it is super hard to like bring this solution to life. I'll admit it. Like much harder than I realized it would be if I had known. Who knows? Um, I think that when you can tell someone what you're building and and the response is, and actually this happened with one of our Series A investors, Next Ventures, that does a lot of um really interesting um like whole human health companies. They uh Lance Armstrong is one of the GPs. And when I told him, like, this is what we're building, he's like, How is that not how egg donation works already? Right. And like when that's the response, you're like, oh, this is what we should be building, right? Like when it like seems like it's the obvious answer or how things should have been done, that's I think when you're onto something. Yeah. And tell us more about that, you know, like that that spark. Like when, when did it seem just like so obvious to you? Like you had to build this. Um was there like a specific moment and time around that? Yes, yes. And I was actually standing in this very room. Uh well, I'll give you a little bit about my personal story and why I care about it, and then I think this part will make sense. But um, actually, it was right around the time I pitched Uber Health to the executive leadership team at Uber when I was diagnosed with a super rare abdominal disease. I'm one of 154 people on the planet to ever get it. Like as rare as it gets, I had masses growing throughout my abdomen and pelvis and needed to have them removed before they like cut off the functioning of my organs, basically. And they told me that there was a really high likelihood I'd lose my ovaries through the surgeries that I needed to have and asked, you know, can I freeze my eggs? And they said, you know what? Like your disease is so rare, we don't know how your body will respond to the hormones. So egg donation might be your best bet to have kids if you lose your ovaries. I started looking at it and I could not believe what I saw. It felt so transactional. It felt actually like surge pricing for egg donors because what I saw was that the harder it was to find a donor based on her heritage or her religion or her education, the more cash compensation she warranted. And to me, I was like, what? Like you can't pay for organ donation. Like, why is it that this is just like, you know, anyone gets paid, they get paid anywhere from like $10,000 to $100,000, depending on their pedigree, essentially. And that just felt really icky to me. It also was crazy that these donors were billed as anonymous, right? Like how any donation can be an anonymous when things like ancestry.com and other at-home DNA tests exist, like is impossible. And so I really wanted nothing to do with it. And my sister decided that she would freeze her eggs and donate them to me so I'd have them in case I needed them someday. And so going into what ended up being three surgeries, I had those eggs on ice waiting for me. Long story short, I ultimately did not lose my ovaries, which was like a total miracle, but I got to live my life with the gift of frozen eggs. And I got to make decisions about my career without the pressure of my biological clock. And I got to make decisions about my relationship without the pressure of my biological clock. And so ultimately I went on to have my oldest who's four. And after I gave birth, I held her in my arms and was like, I have to help other people have this like miracle feeling that I have right now. And so after eight and a half years at Uber without having a plan, I gave notice after my maternity leave. And I didn't post it on LinkedIn, didn't post it on Instagram or anything like that. But the very next day, I got a DM from Hallie. And Hallie and I were um had always run in the same sort of digital health circle. There were very few women at the time building in digital health. And she was like, I heard your fundraising. I was like, I'm not fundraising, but if any of your portfolio companies are hiring, I really want to do something in the fertility space. And she was like, I have an idea. What's your phone number? And she called me and I was standing right here. And I remember being like, Hallie, Hallie Techko's calling me, like, just like because I admired her so much. And she had told me that she'd been sitting on this idea for quite some time and wanted to bring it to life. And she didn't even know that my sister had donated eggs to me. That's so cool. What are the odds, right? Of right like happening. Exact. I, you know, the universe is involved in one way or another, right? And so what happened was she told me what it was. I was like, holy shit, that is a really amazing idea. That's exactly how it should work. I told her I needed to think about it. I got back to her like the next day and I was like, we need to do a survey. She's like, What do you mean? I was like, we need to make sure that women in the age group we're talking about would do this, right? And we know the age group that ASRM, the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, says that to qualify to donate eggs, you need to be between the ages of 21 and 34. And, you know, we needed to reach that population. And so we put together a type forum that basically understood that demo's feelings around egg freezing and whether or not the idea of egg sharing would be compelling to them. And we asked if a handful of influencers to post it on their Instagram stories. Within 24 hours, we had, I don't know, like close to a thousand responses, which I couldn't believe. And I remember repeatedly refreshing the type form because I couldn't believe my eyes. I could not believe 66% of women said yes. The idea of egg sharing is compelling to me. And so from that moment, I just like knew like we had to run at this, right? Like that it was in the data. It didn't matter what I thought, didn't matter what my friends thought, didn't matter what my mom, who I ask for her opinion all the time, doesn't matter what she thinks, it matters what women between the ages of 21 and 34 think. And it was around resounding yes. And so we used that data in our conversations with early investors. And like five weeks later, we had raised a $5 million round. Wow. That is awesome and so inspiring. Oh my gosh. I even got like a little tear in my eye when you're telling your story. Um, just because I have so many friends that have decided to proactively freeze their eggs. But then I also have friends on the other side of it that have tried IVF and it's like, or they'll do like an egg retrieval and just only get a couple of eggs and it's super high stakes, and they're like, this is our one shot. And just knowing that there's another option out there is huge for women and for families. Yeah. And what's wild to me is how many intended parents they come to us and they say, Wow, I wish this existed 15 years ago, right? And because they wouldn't be in the position they're in now had it been something they had done. Totally. And why do you think no one did it that way before? You know, I think that when egg donation started, um, and the same goes for sperm donation, right? I think that un at home DNA testing did not exist, right? So there was not this um, you know, idea that someone could be found really easily or that the donor can see person might reach out to them. I think physicians who started it did the best they could, right? So I certainly like don't fault that. I think the goal was how do we get people to baby the fastest? And the fastest way for them to do that was to think through traditional incentives, which always come down to cash, and to promise anonymity, to promise, hey, we'll pay you to give this tissue and you'll never hear from the child. You don't have to worry about it. It'll be this thing you do one time and then help you pay for school or whatever it might be, and then you never have to think about it again. What that did was help a good portion of people get to baby quickly and have a baby. And then it led to a lot of surprises down the line of people finding out later in life they were donor-conceived and being shocked by that, or finding out that they had biological half siblings and being shocked by that, or sort of uncovering the truth about how they were conceived or their genetics. And we now have enough donor-conceived people who are adults and who have grown up and who are actually advocating for the rights of future donor-conceived people, and say, hey, this shouldn't be a secret. It should be known who your genetics are coming from. The child should be told they're donor-conceived early on. So it's never a traumatic part of their identity. And it should be open and that way it is not stigmatized. And what we found is that so much of the stigma around egg donation in particular is rooted in cash compensation, right? What we found is that a lot of women are really off-put by the idea of getting paid to donate their eggs. It makes them feel like they're selling their body. It makes them feel like they're doing something shameful for cash. When in reality, so many women believe that anyone who wants to be a parent deserves to be a parent. And they know that if that is true, that they need the help of a third party to have a baby, right? Whether that's a same-sex male couple or someone who struggles with fertility challenges or someone who met their partner later in life and no longer has their own ovarian reserve, right? If they need the help of a third party to have a baby, someone has to donate their eggs. And so if we take that stigmatized part of it, which is the cash compensation, and the other stigma that comes from this idea that, like, you don't know if a baby's born, and maybe you walk down the street and you see someone who looks like you and you wonder, is that the child that was born from the donation I did 20 years ago, right? That's the other fear. If we take that out and we say, hey, these are the intended parents that want to match with you, here's their name. Here's you can meet them over Zoom. You can get to know them. You can decide with them to email once a year or to send photos of a baby or to for you to send them pictures of your children someday when you have kids. And it can be this like open, positive relationship to build. If we take those two things that really cause the most stigma out of it and say, hey, intended parents, you can help empower this young woman to like go live her life on her terms while she's also helping you grow your family, they feel better about it too, right? Um, and the last piece I'll say about that is that there was a study done at Harvard Med School in 2021 that said majority of donor-conceived people really struggle with the idea that their parents paid cash compensation for their genetics, right? And so if we know that, we should do better. Yeah. And that's so fascinating. I mean, clearly there's just been so much kind of like stigma, like like we were saying, all the different types of stigma seems to be really resulting from the cash component and the anonymous piece of it. And, you know, I I'd love to kind of hear a little bit of how you've changed that at co-fertility. You know, you mentioned like, you know, having the optionality, right? And like of the donor with like the intended parents and being able to talk to each other. Are there other aspects too that you kind of facilitate along the way? Yeah. I mean, we have like reimagined every piece of this. We, I mean, so much of it comes from even on the tech side, right? Like making sure that this is like a tech-enabled experience that everything from like the application that someone fills out that's interested in doing this to the way that we review those applications and how we present that in a profile to intended parents and the types of questions that we ask, right? We are trying to get at who the root of this person is that you're interested in and not just like, I mean, looking at like photos or just basic, basic like physical characteristics or physical attributes of someone, right? Like, you know, what are your short-term goals and long-term goals and who would you invite to dinner and why? And, you know, how would you rate yourself as your musical talents and your, you know, interest in the arts and sciences and things like that. And so we've really reimagined that part of it. And we've also, you know, I think even just a lot of other companies in the space will give donors like a number and instead of they don't put their names, which makes total sense. But when you put a number against a profile, it's really dehumanizing. And so we give every donor a three-letter code that actually feels like initials, right? Like it feels like, you know, that could be someone's initials. And it's just like a more humanized experience. And I think that that just gets at the core of how we're trying to do things differently. But the match meetings are are really my favorite when we have an intended parent and a donor and a member of our team on a call. They've actually been like some of the most powerful meetings of my entire career because they're literally like entering into what is potentially like a lifelong relationship. And getting to witness that is pretty beautiful. So cool. That's awesome. That's really, really cool. How how many um I guess I don't know if you're able to share, but like how many um matches around this have you facilitated already? Um, our matches are are well into the triple digits at this point. And awesome. But it's been really exciting to see, I think, even beyond the matches, the the babies that have been born. We're starting to see the baby pictures roll in. And it is like the coolest feeling in the world. Both that like you know, for every baby that's born, not only are these intended parents like walking away with like this super, super long-awaited dream that they've had, but that it also means that the donor has like more optionality for her future too each time. Awesome. And I'd love to ask about co-founder dynamics. So you teamed up with Holly Techko, as we talked about. Um she's obviously done a lot to shape the digital health category. Um, and it seems like both of you are really aligned on vision from the start, but how would you say that your strengths kind of complement each other? Yeah. Um, she is one of the most dynamic, amazing, and like just hardworking people I have ever come across. She's a person who's like, you know, resume and bio like could could carry her, and she doesn't let it. Like she lets the work she does every single day like show for itself. You know, like she just does not let up, and it's very inspiring to like be next to that every day. And so I appreciate that. But number two, we're really different. She is someone who, I mean, she has her master's of public health and her MBA, and like that shows in the things that she's like exceptional at. Um, she generates an insane amount of our content and pushes us to be really deep in the data, both on the like business decision-making front, but also on our outcomes, right? We know that helping into parents and um, you know, the donor side feel really good about the data and visualizing that data and and helping to tell our story is like the only way that we're able to move this space forward. And so she keeps us really accountable and diligent on that front. Um, and having her Both as a co-founder, but as like, you know, the chair of our board really pushes me and feels like uh this like built-in sort of partner who like has seen a lot of this stuff before, which feels amazing. And then Hallie hates managing people. Um, she it's just like not her her thing, and she knows it. And I um love managing people, and I think that's one of the most fulfilling parts of what I get to do, and growing a team that feels as connected to our mission as I do, and who's deep in that is like something that she saw in me on day one, and um, I appreciate her for that. And so I have the ability to do that, and I also love the like business development and member-facing interactions. So I believe very much in like founder-led saying from day one. I did every single intended parent call, and I even used to cold call our intended parents myself every single day and did that for a couple of years. And so that has allowed me to get really sharp on the member experience and figure out like how we could scale it beyond me. And so that's something that I think has been pretty valuable for our team and getting to this stage. It's awesome. We're big fans over here of founder-led sales, and it's honestly a red flag when we meet founders that are not willing to do that because you can just like shortcut so many different points of playing telephone, trying to learn what's on the customer's mind and then feed that back into the product. So that's correct. Totally. And I would have to like pretend to intended parents, like, oh, today's my day to make these calls, even though every day was my day. I didn't want them to think that like, you know, we weren't swooping in here. Yeah. Right. Like I didn't have other things to be doing, but really it just I ultimately we realized that I was, you know, I had nailed the pit. I figured out how to do it, right? And I had to be able to do it so many times to get to the point where I could teach other people to do it. Yeah, exactly. And speaking of, you know, managing people and you know, building out the team, how did you think about hiring the team at co-fertility, especially since it's such, you know, you're building on such like this intersection of like the tech, of healthcare, but also just the emotional aspect of building a family, right? So yeah, curious about like the signals that you look for when you're building out the team. Number one is a feeling in my gut. Um I I think for like a while I tried to ignore that because it wasn't something that I could like pinpoint. But now being three and a half plus years into this, I can look back and tell you with certainty every time I had a gut feeling that someone was gonna be amazing, they were. And every time I had a gut feeling that maybe I shouldn't move forward or I like questioned it, I shouldn't have moved forward. Like I know that for a fact. And so now I have like a rule with myself and I have said it out loud to my leadership team, said it out loud to my husband that like I straight up will never go against my gut with a hire ever again because it is, I would so much rather like live with no one in the role than the wrong person in the role because getting people out of seat is harder than you think. And so um your gut is number one. Number two, I think like first and foremost, and two of our earliest hires here are people that I had worked with before at Uber. I um when I look around the org now, so many of our like A players are people who've worked with other people at co-fertility before. And so I'm a huge, huge advocate of like asking your team, like who have you worked with before that you want to work with again, right? Like people do not want to recommend someone who is not an A player because it is a bad look for them and who wants to work with someone who's not an A player, right? So that's certainly like top of mind for me. And then really like getting clear with yourself on what it is that you're hiring for. So our member advocate role as an example is one where someone has to be like incredibly organized, incredibly like operationally minded, but they all and then there's two personality effects they need to have. One is that we call it this the big sister effect, which is like when you're talking to one of our split members or our donors, like, can you come off as someone who is warm and accessible or approachable, who is knowledgeable and can educate without making someone feel stupid for asking them a question, right? Like, can you come off as someone who's like been through this before and they're feel comfortable going to? And then on the intended parent side, can you show up in a way that both is empathetic and holds space for what is typically a long road that they've been on that might be filled with loss and hardship and really challenging road to probably failed cycles of IVF and miscarriages and things like that, while also making them feel comfortable moving forward and taking steps of action at the same time. And so it's a really hard role to hire for. And we have absolute A players in those roles, but I say no to candidates a lot. And my team, I'm sure, gets super frustrated with me. But like that is just one area that I feel so strongly like we have to get it right, especially if I'm gonna introduce our members to someone, right? Like I don't want to have to go to our members and be like, ooh, sorry, so-and-so is not with the company anymore, right? Like I would so much rather get it right and feel great about the candidates we have. Are you involved in like hiring every single person or at least kind of like the final sign-off still? Every single person. That's awesome. And I will be for a long time. And I don't know, maybe they call that founder mode. I don't know how I kept mixed feelings about founder mode as a concept. Um, that is absolutely I know some people who actually probably aren't on my team anymore, um, felt strongly that maybe I wasn't spending my time in the right place in that way. And I completely disagree. I will happily give 30 minutes of my day to meet with someone my team is excited about. And in 30 minutes, like I can totally tell if they're gonna be great here or not. So it's worth it to me. It's awesome. And and next question I have is for folks that might be listening in that might be in operator roles, like the one that you had at Uberth, with an idea in mind, thinking about founding a company. So curious to hear, was it your first time fundraising for a company? And how did that go? And what's something that you wish more investors understood about health tech uh or your space in general? It was my first time fundraising. Um, and I think that to some degree you have to be fearless. I think you can't be afraid of it not working out, right? Like you have to go for it anyway. If you don't go for it, you'll never get the funding. So you gotta try. I think that you have to spend time with the right investors and you have to like know to some degree what you're doing, right? And I, you know, having someone like Hallie who had done some of this before and who had been on the other side, like helped me to know, are we talking to the right people? Is our story the right story? So I think find people in your orbit who can provide some mentorship on that front. And there's so many online resources that are free of like what should be in my pitch deck, or um, you know, how do I find the right kind of investors? Like, there's so much online. Like, don't, don't, I mean, and I'm sure with ChatGBT and things like that, you can really even hone in further on that front. Um, I think um you don't need every investor to like what you're building or to like you. Um, I just believe, you know, it it takes one, right? Like, just don't give up. I think that most people give up and that's why they never get where they want to go. The like having a little bit of delusion and a little bit of relentlessness mixed together is is what gets you there. So some investors won't see it, and that's okay. You just need one. Yeah. We see that a lot from founders as well as emerging managers on VC raising from either VCs or LPs. It's so much better to spend time on the people that get your vision than to try to convince someone who was always gonna say no. And I think a lot of people get stuck in that trap, and then that becomes a total deterrent. So appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, definitely. Well, switching gears a little bit here, uh, would love to hear a little bit about a time as you were building co-fertility where, you know, um, maybe something didn't go kind of like how you expected. Was there a time when you were really uncertain? And how did you think about, you know, changing course if you needed to or leading just through that? It's funny, it's not I don't think there's like one moment that comes to mind. And so maybe I I won't get as specific as you had hoped we I would, but what I'll say is that something I have really adopted is this idea that like the only way out is through, right? And when you are the CEO or a founder of something, like it's on you to have the hardest conversations. It is on you to do like the hard stuff always. And if you don't do it, nobody else will. And so you can either like avoid it for as long as possible and run out of money, or you can realize it's a problem and deal with it as soon as possible and know that like there's only peace you'll have is on the other side of that really hard problem. And so I um I like before this experience, I don't think I was ever someone who like considered myself confrontational or fearless in any way. But I think I've realized that like I really care about the success of our team and our mission and what we're trying to do. And I it is my like responsibility to like not shy away from the hard stuff. And so I just like go for it. But you like you have to face the music. Yeah, I love that. And especially when you were talking about earlier, right? What whether the whether the wall is there and all the different ways to go around it, maybe the weight is through, right? Like just literally blow it up and go and go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing I love to talk about um that I don't want to take for granted in here is that you're really helping to reframe how people think about egg donation and doing so. Really, like you've touched a lot of individual families and broader cultural narratives. What have you kind of learned about behavioral change and and building trust in a space that's like so widely um, I guess, criticized in different ways from different angles all the time? Yeah. Um, I don't think I knew how controversial what we're building would be. Simply helping people build families, right? It's wildly controversial for a lot of people for different for things like you'd never expect. But what I have found is that it's like given me even further conviction to like keep showing up and to keep doing it. And I actually think the controversy can be great for business. And so, like, as an example, you know, we have I was just looking earlier at like an Instagram ad that we have running, and I saw someone like question the model, and I was like, oh, like total cringe. Like when I saw the comment, I was like, oh my God, like why do we insist on having comments on our ads? I know that's because they perform better and because it shows that you're authentic, right? But I had this like feeling, and then I checked back like a half an hour later and I saw the engagement under that of like someone else, like another random person saw it and was like, why would you say that? Like, covertility is just providing another option, right? Like, if egg donation is for you, wonderful. This is a way to also freeze your own eggs. But if egg donation isn't for you, don't do it, right? And then, like, over a hundred people had like hearted that comment and like added more commentary, agreeing with it. And I realized that like perhaps these ads perform so well because people get fired up about it, right? Like they they care. And so almost like the taboo nature of the topic and the taboo sort of stigmatide like feelings people have around this is part of what makes it all work, I think. And so for us, I think it's like showing up transparently and authentically and like not shying away from these conversations and from these topics. And like, you know, I welcome the hard conversations. And I think like, I think the more we're really upfront and honest about why we built it the way we built it and like proud to put our faces on it to me is really important. And if you look at other companies in the space, like it's really hard to find who owns other like egg banks. Like, why is that? Maybe because there are things they aren't proud of, or maybe they're not like so willing to stand up and say, I believe that women should have choices and I believe that intended parents should have more options. And I believe that anyone who wants to be a parent deserves to be a parent. Yep. Yeah, and I've heard from a lot of creators that when the haters come out in the comments, it that's when you know you're going viral. So yes. Yeah, it just kind of opens the door for more conversation to happen and more dialogue, and it gets the good people in to fight the good fight, the the people that are not that are, you know, repelling against your vision, they'll be there too, but at least everybody gets to have a conversation. Yeah, like those people were never gonna be our members in the first place, right? So maybe they'll help get the intention of people who would be, and that's okay. Yeah, and it sounds like that's a really great way for co-fertility to stand out, right? Like from a brand perspective, like you were saying, because you're much more transparently out there. Yeah. Are there other things that you think that has really helped co-fertility kind of just um, you know, distinguish itself or differentiate itself like within the kind of like the what woman's health and egg freezing and donation space? I mean, I think in when I think about the fertility space in particular, I think about a three-legged stool, right? I think for someone to be able to go through a fertility journey or IVF specifically, it has to work for them from a financial standpoint. It has to work for them from a physical health standpoint, and it has to work for them in like an emotional, like uh ability mentally to go through it, right? And I think when I think there are a lot of companies out there that like try to solve this problem, but don't touch on any of those legs of the stool. And that's why they have a really hard time working. And I think when a company can really nail one of those and actually instead maybe nail two of those, like that's when they have the best ability to be successful. And so for us, I think like making egg freezing free is a very compelling value proposition. And I think for intended parents, paying zero dollars of cash compensation to a donor is also very compelling. And then the support that we provide through the big sister effect or through our tech, even and through our member advocates and how they work and and being able to like take the mental load off of the intended parent and our split member really helps from an emotional standpoint. I think that those are really part of what has differentiated us. I think a lot about I'm sure you've heard the phrase hard is our moat. I think that not being afraid to solve a really hard problem helps because I think a lot of people probably wouldn't be as crazy to take this on. Yeah. And and speaking of being crazy enough to take this on, let's talk about leadership. What has been your biggest evolution as a CEO since founding Co-Fertility? Well, Hallie would tell you the truth that when she told me she thought I should be the CEO, I told her no. It was like, no, I could never. You don't want me to be the CEO. Um, I actually tried to convince someone else I know to be the CEO. And both that friend of mine and Hallie were like, Can you stop already? Like, it's you. You need to be CEO. So I am certainly someone who in the early days I really struggled with my own version of imposter syndrome and couldn't believe that anyone would give me funding to go build this thing. And I think sometimes I look around, I have like moments of really like, whoa. Like I'll I'll look around and I'll see like the slack just like vibing and people just like the pictures of the babies come through or the like results of an experiment we're running. And I'm just like, how did I get here? Like, how did this happen? Like, if I could dream up any other life, like I don't know what else I could have dreamt than to be building this company. And when you ask my four-year-old, like, what does mommy do for work? She says she helps people have babies. Like that to me is like the most fulfilling thing ever. And so I think I've tried really hard to push myself and rise to the occasion. Um scale with the business, I guess. And so I'm the first to admit it when I mess up and take responsibility for it. And I don't know, I try to I like probably sometimes maybe low ego to a fault. Um, and I'm like, oh, that was my fault. I really messed that up. But I just like I try every day. That's it. I don't know. It's awesome. Sorry. And as you look at the head, what do you think about um is going to be like next for co-fertility, but also for you as a leader as well. Um I'm really excited about the where our team is today. We uh uh have made some like I really feel good about our leadership team of like the people who are in seat. Um I al I think about it kind of like who's in the boat and are these like who's in the lifeboat and and what does that look and feel like? And I I feel so excited about the people that are in the boat with me. And my hope is that over the next sort of six months or so, we just because there's been a couple recent additions that it feels like we're like moving and grooving. And, you know, I can maybe I'd like to step out of the day-to-day on a couple areas that I'm probably two in the weeds on, right? And and do things that I know are probably a little bit more CEO, like that I probably not doing right now. And so I'd like to like have some equilibrium, I think is is on the like leadership front. Um, you know, to me, this is about like owning a category, right? Like we are owning egg sharing and we are becoming synonymous with that idea. And I want it to be just like no longer that like someone might be trying to figure out how to pay for egg freezing. Like I want it just to be known that like if you are open to also donating your eggs, so like this option exists, right? Like, and I know that that's becoming the case in certain groups and I love it, but I want it to be even more widely known. And so that's really the goal like scale this thing. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. And thanks for so authentically sharing the leadership journey with us too. Well, we're gonna transition to rapid fire questions. So you can just say the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. So I'll let Rachel start. Okay, sounds good. Um, so a book or idea that changed how you think about building. Um, I read a book called Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima. She was the founder of It Cosmetics, um, that she then sold to L'Oreal for like a billion dollars. Uh and she has a podcast now, if you don't know. But she wrote this book. Um, and it was this idea that like your potential isn't defined by like your self-confidence. It's instead defined by your self-worth and this idea that like you'll only achieve as much as you think you're worthy of achieving. And I had to kind of like reframe my own thinking and realize that like what if I like actually believe in the grandest vision of what I know covertility is is capable and well positioned to do? Like, what happens when I believe we're worthy of achieving that? And that book really helped shape the way I get there. And most underrated skill fair founder? Blowing up brick walls. That's a great one. Yes, earlier. Learn it from the Uber Days. Yeah. Yeah. What about a mindset shift that helped you grow as a leader? Another book that has influenced me. I guess like the worthy one is sort of a repeat here, but I also read a book that shaped so much of how I think about the world. It's called Super Attractor by Gabby Bernstein. It's like a little bit manifesty, I suppose, but this idea that I often think of something she talks about in the book, which is like this or something better. And so basically, when I, I'll give you an example, we were recently hiring for a head of finance, and I met a candidate and I was like, okay, I feel right about this candidate, and we're gonna make an offer. And I remember thinking, like, oh my God, I hope he says yes. And then I was like, wait, no, this or something better. Right? I want this or something better. And if it doesn't work out with this person, it's because something better is coming. And ultimately, like that's what happened, right? It didn't work out with that candidate. But then the next interview I had, I was like, oh my God, like this was the something better. And not that one person is better than the other, but I felt this second candidate was like just better for the role, right? And he was my something better. And that's just like one example of how often that happens, the point where my team will like repeat that back to me of like, this or something better. And it does work out. And so I like to have that kind of mindset instead of just like wishing for things to happen and then being disappointed when they don't. It really helps. Yeah, definitely. And then it if you had a magic wand, what's one thing? So let's say you get three three wishes, what's one thing that you would fix for yourself, for the fertility ecosystem, and then the next generation of founders? Magic wand, I think for myself. would be just more time in the day. Um I have two young children um who I don't want to miss a single thing with. And then you said fertility ecosystem. Right. I think that, you know, it's really sometimes weirdly fragmented, right? Fragmented in a number of ways. Like, you know, there are certain employers that have, you know, one fertility coverage and another one might have different fertility coverage. And that can be challenging even if they use the same benefits provider. Or you have some clinics that are owned by one PE back network and then another clinic across the street that is independently owned. And you have this clinic that has excellent outcomes and this clinic that has terrible outcomes and they're not sharing data and they're not sharing protocol. Or, you know, you have one physician who likes to use birth control pills before a an egg freezing cycle and another physician who doesn't. And you're like, why, why are we making this so much harder than it needs to be, right? I think the fragmentation makes solving problems in this space unnecessarily challenging. And so I would streamline a lot of things. That would be my magic wand. And then the next generation of founders, I would make it easier for women founders to raise money. During our last round, someone on my team sent me an a Harvard Business Review article or like case study or whatever it was that was like I think it was maybe a 10 plus year old thing, but it was how women founders get what is essentially the same question from an investor that a man would get, but it's like worded completely differently. And so a man might get the question or sorry a woman might get the question of like, you know, what's your mode and how do you prevent this person or this company from competing with you? And how do you keep so and so from you know eating your lunch and all the male founder gets is how will you win? Right. And it's like so accurate. It is so accurate. And I hate to say it, but like I think women VCs are in the same, you know, both like they ask questions that way the same way the men do. That is staggering. Women in a bad way women teams, right? Like if you have a male co-founder, like the likelihood that you raise money is significantly higher. Like that's crazy to me. You know? And you know Hallie and I have been very lucky that we have been able to successfully raise and that, you know, our investors have seen something in us, but it's way too hard and it shouldn't be like that for us or for anybody else. And I just want more women to to take a chance and for people to bet on them. Like I saw something recently that was like a crazy high number of women founded companies that have had successful exits and like then this like tiny portion of them are getting fun funding. Like what? Like how like it's crazy to me. So anyway that's something I feel very strongly about. No absolutely there. Yeah. Well Lauren thank you so much for being here. Um where can people follow you or learn more about cofertility? Well um follow me on Instagram at Lauren Mackler. So L-A-U-R-E-N-M-A-K-L-E-R. Love to engage there. But also at cofertility on Instagram and covertility.com if you are interested in freezing your eggs and seeing if you qualify to become a split member with us. We have a really short preliminary application that just like gives you a sense and then there's a a longer version once you've like crossed that threshold that I think gives people a good sense of what's possible. And then if you are an intended parent who is looking to grow your family through egg donation, we have an amazing matchmaking team that helps our intended parents at no cost see if we have a donor that is a good fit for them. And we always have hundreds of donors available at any given time and they're amazing. They are unlike what you'd find elsewhere and I think they're all just like I don't know I I feel like you know I my own resume doesn't hold a candle. So check us out and would love to be on this journey with you. Well this is the coolest thing ever and I'm like genuinely really excited to share this episode with my friends and colleagues. Well thank you for having me you guys have great questions and I'm excited to have it out in the world. Rachel, what stood out to you from the conversation? Oh that was such like a fascinating conversation with Lauren. I really loved how she was thinking about the transparency of the fertility business and how it really wasn't transparent before and how she's brought that into building co-fertility and I'm sure she's bringing that kind of like within her team as well. And I also loved how she um talked about in the beginning how it's simple, you know, healthcare can be simple, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to build. And the concept of donating eggs and actually having better matches for the family is simple, similar to her experience at Uber Health, you know, bringing the flu shots on the app for people or connecting people to rides to get them to their appointments. I'm sure it took a lot of operational work to actually build it but simple from an ideas perspective. And then lastly, you know I really loved how she's just like so involved in every hire and she was you know the the sole member experience person in the beginning before she scaled that out. So cases like the the care that she has in building this company and and ensuring that people who do want to be families are able to to do so. Yeah and I love what you said about simple but not easy because I think halfway through the conversation she mentioned something about how the the brand was developing and people are starting to associate them with just egg sharing. And I was just thinking to myself as she said it, wow, how many founders can summarize what their company does in two words, not a one-liner just two words. So that's pretty amazing how simple they they've gotten it down. And then you know in terms of that you know involved in every higher and sales member experience and her just being super hands-on I thought it was also interesting that at the start she didn't think of herself as a CEO. And sometimes sometimes those founders are the best because they're really not in it for the glory or the title. They're in it because they really, really care about the mission. And I find that the folks that are kind of in it for the glory or the title, those are the ones that are going to give up the second it gets tough and it always does. And you know I think it also translates into people wanting to get into the details and not just wanting to like you know hang out, you know, with other founders and investors and talk about what they're building, but really like getting into the details internally in the company to get things done and be there for the team really showed up throughout the conversation. And then one thing, one separate thing that kind of stood out to me was just her talking a little bit at the end about manifestation and worthiness and just her mindset management as a founder because I think that's so important. You know, somebody who's had to found my own firm, raise capital and working with so many other founders in our portfolio of all different backgrounds that struggle with some level of am I worthy of the thing that I'm requesting right now? I think it's just so interesting to see how she's been really intentional about working on that mindset and like chipping away at it to get to the point where she believes she's worthy of what she is, what her vision actually is and then letting it come to her versus you know almost asking for things with an apology attached or something. So I thought that was really cool that she shared that as a big part of her adaptation as a leader. Yeah. I think we should take in the this or something better, right? Like as part of how we operate as well. It's it's so great to have that mindset. Definitely well awesome if you enjoyed this episode share it with a founder leave a review and subscribe to First Builders wherever you get your podcasts. Yes. And feel free to follow us at the council on LinkedIn and the council cap on X. And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at thecouncil.co for more insights from early operators and our newsletter is really awesome. 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